Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: In today's episode, we are joined by golf course architect
Speaker 1: Dave Zincn. Dave is an up and coming architect who's
Speaker 1: worked for the likes of Coren Crenshaw, Gil Hans and
Speaker 1: Arthur Hills while completing solo work of his own at
Speaker 1: Desert Forest. Before we get into it with Dave, we
Speaker 1: have a new limited edition New York City logo in
Speaker 1: the pro shop for the upcoming PGA Championship at Bethpage.
Speaker 1: We have a small run of hats from Imperial available
Speaker 1: now and in the coming days we will have a
Speaker 1: few selected items from b Draddy, so be on the
Speaker 1: lookout for those. If you want a hat now, check
Speaker 1: out the pro shop at www dot Thefridagg dot com
Speaker 1: to get yours today. Now, without further ado, here's Dave Zincn.
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my.
Speaker 2: Ball in a Frida Egg, Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Fridagg,
Speaker 2: Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to.
Speaker 1: Run off of them. What do you think of Todd
Speaker 1: hell Farm.
Speaker 2: I had fun. You know, the biggest thing I came
Speaker 2: away with again with Mike Strand's course is how he
Speaker 2: makes it look more challenging than it really is. You know,
Speaker 2: the holes seemed playable for sure. Obviously we're in a
Speaker 2: wet stretch, so it's difficult, but I had a lot
Speaker 2: of fun.
Speaker 1: Do you think architecture would be any different had he
Speaker 1: not passed early? Yeah, obviously there's a rising star in
Speaker 1: the two thousand and complete opposite end of the spectrum
Speaker 1: of what today's trying to are.
Speaker 2: Really well, like we talked about up there on the course,
Speaker 2: you know, there was some width that you might not
Speaker 2: have seen from other architects at the time that he
Speaker 2: was doing that, and that gave it some variety, some
Speaker 2: options as for what he would have continued to do. Obviously,
Speaker 2: you know that with was fundamental to the kind of
Speaker 2: architecture he was producing, so you expect that to continue.
Speaker 2: As far as the contribution, you know, I don't know
Speaker 2: where it would have gone.
Speaker 1: He's definitely on the maximalism scale of the spectrum versus
Speaker 1: what you'd see from you know, Bill Krer, Ben Crenshaw, Tom.
Speaker 2: Doak for sure. Yeah, there's a lot of earth moved
Speaker 2: out there, especially in you know, right down the center
Speaker 2: of the fairways, which you might you know, not necessarily expect,
Speaker 2: although this ground is so severe that, yeah, a lot
Speaker 2: of there's a lot of places out there where you
Speaker 2: have to accomplish that to make it playable.
Speaker 1: So you went to school at Cornell?
Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I loved it up there.
Speaker 1: It was fun see the latest of the lineage of
Speaker 1: Cornell grad architects.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: It's funny because you know, when when I initially wanted
Speaker 2: to go to Cornell, it was really a combination of
Speaker 2: the fact that I could either choose to be at
Speaker 2: one of the best architecture programs or landscape architecture programs
Speaker 2: in the country, and then decide later once I had
Speaker 2: gotten into the architecture program, whether I wanted to commit
Speaker 2: to golf specifically or some other very form of design.
Speaker 2: But I always knew I wanted to do design, so
Speaker 2: that's what led me there.
Speaker 1: What made you want to do golf?
Speaker 2: For sure? Oh, I think it just calm. It combines
Speaker 2: my interests, certainly the golf side, but also design and
Speaker 2: the natural aesthetic. So it's just a perfect blend of
Speaker 2: those three things.
Speaker 1: So as you do the Drear Award, there I did,
Speaker 1: So you spent The Drear Award is a essentially study
Speaker 1: abroad program that Tom doak gil Hans of john Osso
Speaker 1: where you spend a year and where'd you go to Scotland?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to Britain and Ireland, traveled all over
Speaker 2: basically was able to see, you know, just about everything
Speaker 2: that was good over there. I spent. I went over
Speaker 2: late in nineteen ninety seven and stayed through almost the
Speaker 2: end of ninety eight and was able to start out
Speaker 2: in the south while the weather was pretty poor and
Speaker 2: visit a lot of heathland golf courses and that was
Speaker 2: a real eye opener to get to see those. You know,
Speaker 2: I knew that there was some amazing stuff along the coast,
Speaker 2: but just to see what they accomplished on those heathland
Speaker 2: courses when architecture was really burgeoning was an eye opener.
Speaker 1: So like that would be like Saint Endicott area right
Speaker 1: down there.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean the prime section is southwest of London,
Speaker 2: so Surrey, and you know, I mean that in some
Speaker 2: ways it all started with Woking and went out from there.
Speaker 2: So that place is amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, John Lowe, the bunker that changed golf, really.
Speaker 2: It really did. And it's funny, you know, it continues
Speaker 2: that counterintuitive conversation that we've talked about in the past,
Speaker 2: where you know, maybe striking it down the middle is
Speaker 2: not always the best option the best choice, and I
Speaker 2: continue to believe that, you know, the most, the most
Speaker 2: diversity that you can give a golfer through the course
Speaker 2: of eighteen holes or however many holes you have to
Speaker 2: play with, the better off you are.
Speaker 1: Had you been to the UK before.
Speaker 2: That, no, no, So when I got to Cornell, I
Speaker 2: really knew that there, you know, as I said, there
Speaker 2: were a great architecture landscape architecture program and Rtij Senior
Speaker 2: had been you know, at Cornell, and that played into
Speaker 2: the whole conversation that Tom Doak has continued to talk
Speaker 2: about as his career progressed, about how Cornell provides you
Speaker 2: an opportunity to study anything, you know, it's part of
Speaker 2: the motto. And once I switched to the landscape architecture
Speaker 2: program and began really committing myself to golf course design
Speaker 2: as my focus, then you know, naturally, seeing what Tom
Speaker 2: and gil Hans had done just meant it was the
Speaker 2: thing that I needed to try and accomplish, and so
Speaker 2: I made it a goal. I waited until my senior
Speaker 2: year and applied and was fortunate enough to receive it.
Speaker 2: I was a little concerned about some burnout by the professors,
Speaker 2: but fortunately they were very open minded, and I went
Speaker 2: out of my way to research every aspect that I
Speaker 2: could leading into it, because I knew that I needed
Speaker 2: to put together a good proposal to to sort of
Speaker 2: be in the hunt with all the other varied interests
Speaker 2: that people in the horticulture and landscape architecture departments have.
Speaker 1: So you did all this research beforehand. What were a
Speaker 1: few things that kind of jumped out to you that
Speaker 1: you didn't expect that you researched about the trip.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when you sit down and look at
Speaker 2: a map of Britain, obviously that's a pretty jagged coast line,
Speaker 2: and you start realizing that if you're going to visit
Speaker 2: great golf courses, that you are going to spend a
Speaker 2: lot of time traversing around to those remote places. So
Speaker 2: that was interesting, and obviously then once I got over there,
Speaker 2: I realized the value of the heathland courses and they
Speaker 2: were so readily accessible right there around you know, I
Speaker 2: was stationed in Woking. I found a place to stay
Speaker 2: and woke, and that made it easy to get around
Speaker 2: to so many of the courses right there. But then,
Speaker 2: as far as leading into the trip, the big thing
Speaker 2: for me was to read about what Tom and Gil
Speaker 2: had written on their monthly letters that you send back
Speaker 2: as part of the you know, the arrangement with the committee,
Speaker 2: and to find out what they were learning.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Gil made comments about how anything goes, you know, and
Speaker 2: there's a quote out there that's kind of brought up
Speaker 2: every occasionally on the Internet about him saying that, and
Speaker 2: you know, Tom would talk about diversity of PARR, you know,
Speaker 2: and the fact that nobody gave a darn whether par
Speaker 2: was seventy two, you know, and some of these fundamental
Speaker 2: things that I don't look at as important conventions. As
Speaker 2: a result of sending so much time there, you know,
Speaker 2: it really allowed me and anybody else who spent time
Speaker 2: over there to break away from convention and understand that,
Speaker 2: you know, those things are only important to a certain extent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, convention is something that gets in the
Speaker 1: way of every you know, not every, but so many
Speaker 1: of American golf projects. It's like a and I think
Speaker 1: that's part of the part of the issue is that
Speaker 1: we're kind of raised on convention. You know, the every
Speaker 1: other sport is very conventional. There's very few that have
Speaker 1: like a changing playing surface or playing field. You know,
Speaker 1: football has always played one hundred yards, basketball course the
Speaker 1: same same length, oops ten feet, you know, nothing. The
Speaker 1: only thing that changes course really is baseball has just
Speaker 1: different parks. But for the most part, golf's the only
Speaker 1: one that has really different stuff from course to course.
Speaker 2: For sure. The freedom, diversity, and adventure that you get
Speaker 2: from a golf course is completely different than any other
Speaker 2: sport that I guess either of us can can come
Speaker 2: up with. So that's why in some ways I feel
Speaker 2: like the court or the the game is as strong
Speaker 2: as it is right now, despite the fact that it's
Speaker 2: had so many setbacks, and I feel like some of
Speaker 2: those setbacks were brought on by conventions that we adhered
Speaker 2: to in the past. So moving forward, continuing with that
Speaker 2: adventurous spirit, I think is a real essential part of
Speaker 2: how the game can succeed.
Speaker 1: Yes, so you're on the Polish side of defense, where
Speaker 1: you golf detractors will say it's it's condensing, it's struggling.
Speaker 1: Then you have some golf fanatics that are you know,
Speaker 1: say it's thriving. You know, if you think about the
Speaker 1: PGA Tour, they're always saying the game's thriving, it's never
Speaker 1: been more popular. You fall on the positive end of
Speaker 1: the spectrum.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that I don't necessarily have a
Speaker 2: take on where things are going relative to the tour
Speaker 2: in that perspective. But and you know, with the conventional
Speaker 2: golf widespread, you know, everybody's a golfer who plays, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know how few times a year. If they're
Speaker 2: trying to add up those numbers, those numbers are probably
Speaker 2: going down. But the passion and interest of guys like
Speaker 2: yourself and you know, just a whole lot of people
Speaker 2: that I didn't realize, you know, kind of naturally gravitated
Speaker 2: to the game that you and I really appreciate, is
Speaker 2: as strong as I think it's ever been.
Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd agree with that. I think that we're the
Speaker 1: number of really, you know, the number of golfers might decrease,
Speaker 1: but I think what we're seeing now is a more
Speaker 1: passionate base of golfers that have more interests and more
Speaker 1: aspects of the game, which is a good thing, you know,
Speaker 1: like to have it because those are the types of
Speaker 1: people that are going to lead to growth, is having
Speaker 1: people that really love the game, because then their friends
Speaker 1: are going to be like, why why is this guy
Speaker 1: like this so much? Or why is this girl like
Speaker 1: this so much? You know, I need to try it
Speaker 1: out if they like it so much? Like why is
Speaker 1: Andy getting up at the krack of dawn every weekend
Speaker 1: to go play golf? You know. I know a lot
Speaker 1: of my friends have gotten into it because of like that,
Speaker 1: you know, and then they get into it and they're like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I was missing out for so long.
Speaker 2: So you feel like you draw friends into the game.
Speaker 1: Well I think I think, Yeah, they're more likely to
Speaker 1: give it a try if one of their friends is
Speaker 1: super into it, right for sure?
Speaker 2: For sure you have to have yeah, yeah, any any
Speaker 2: of these interests or hobbies, you've got to have somebody
Speaker 2: kind of shows you the ropes.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's hard to have somebody. And it's funny
Speaker 1: because like my friends, what I think is interesting is
Speaker 1: they you know, None of them are really golfers, and
Speaker 1: now the way they play golf is the way I
Speaker 1: play golf. They walk like they get mad when they
Speaker 1: can't walk, which is fascinating to me because if you
Speaker 1: looked at like the cross section of like you know,
Speaker 1: the type of golfer they are. They are traditionally writers.
Speaker 1: But because I walk, they walk, I think.
Speaker 2: Well, they're pushed into that and then they realize, Wow,
Speaker 2: I get to have a nice walk, exercise, be outdoors,
Speaker 2: include all these things in a little golfing adventure. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's funny because like they'll ask me to play and
Speaker 1: I'll ask where, and they're like I'll be like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go play there. But if they
Speaker 1: know if they asked me to play and they're playing
Speaker 1: somewhere like Ravslow in Chicago, which is a dal ross
Speaker 1: where like I love going to play there, I'll be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going to play, and they're like, the only place
Speaker 1: we can get Andy to play it is if we
Speaker 1: were going to play Ravislow, which is funny, and then
Speaker 1: we walk and I mean that's one of the best
Speaker 1: walking courses in the country. So you after Cornell, did
Speaker 1: you start working for Corn Crenshaw right then.
Speaker 2: No, when I got back, you know, I had a
Speaker 2: kind of a diversity of experiences before I went to
Speaker 2: work for Corn Crenshaw. I spent some time at Arthur
Speaker 2: Hill's office, you know, while I was in school kind
Speaker 2: of as an intern. I spent time working for Gil
Speaker 2: Hants And wow, I mean he's just gone on an
Speaker 2: amazing trajectory since I spent time working for him, And
Speaker 2: it was really enjoy able to spend, you know, be
Speaker 2: working under a guy who had that perspective that I
Speaker 2: gained in Britain.
Speaker 1: So what years was that? Was that early in his
Speaker 1: solo career.
Speaker 2: Right that was basically right around the turn of the century,
Speaker 2: just before that and right around there.
Speaker 1: So those are you were working with him on some
Speaker 1: of his early projects in Philly and and.
Speaker 2: Well, I spent time at tall Grass And actually I
Speaker 2: met my wife on Gil's job down in Alabama Capstone Club,
Speaker 2: which no longer exists, although I think it's untouched, it's
Speaker 2: just maybe not open. And it's funny. Gil received kind
Speaker 2: of a recommendation from Bill when Bill and Ben declined
Speaker 2: to take that Capstone Club job. So Bill always likes
Speaker 2: to tease me that He's the reason I met my wife.
Speaker 1: It's pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Bill's good at finding ways to turn something into
Speaker 2: a way to rib Yeah.
Speaker 1: What was that? What was the contrast like between Arthur
Speaker 1: Hill's office and Gill's office.
Speaker 2: Or lack thereof of an office? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean that that's a traditional way of looking at the business.
Speaker 2: I guess from from that era where you're designing in
Speaker 2: the office and you know, more or less contracting someone
Speaker 2: to build it out in the field, and obviously they're
Speaker 2: making site visits. But to me, it became readily apparent
Speaker 2: that if you wanted to do the best work, and
Speaker 2: I didn't see much reason to get into the golf business,
Speaker 2: if I wasn't going to be trying to do the
Speaker 2: best work, that you had to have a presence in
Speaker 2: the field. Plus, if you're somebody who loves golf, loves nature,
Speaker 2: loves design, how could you not want to spend more
Speaker 2: time on a golfing adventure out there in the dirt.
Speaker 2: Of course, you know that means your golfing adventure on
Speaker 2: the turf is going to decline rapidly, but I'm willing
Speaker 2: to accept that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So you know, the more time on site. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you know the contractor there's there can be competing interests.
Speaker 1: But with it with building golf courses, how much of
Speaker 1: a thrill is it to really? Like? Are you more
Speaker 1: on like do you really enjoy creating something or is
Speaker 1: it more fun to see something and let the natural
Speaker 1: kind of landscape tape gets to the course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're kind of hitting back on that question that
Speaker 2: Jason Way asked a while back in an article, And
Speaker 2: in some ways I worked to evade the answer to
Speaker 2: that because they're both so enjoyable. I mean, to go
Speaker 2: out there and have an interesting piece of land that's
Speaker 2: inspiring is just that inspiring. But to be able to
Speaker 2: take a theoretical approach to a piece of property that
Speaker 2: doesn't have as much interest and maybe needs that beat
Speaker 2: into it is also, you know, kind of a great
Speaker 2: thrill so to me, and I would really like to
Speaker 2: continue on with the diversity of projects throughout my career
Speaker 2: and not really gravitate towards one thing. Obviously you have
Speaker 2: to she ate great land, but you don't have to
Speaker 2: have great land to end up with great golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. I think I always am when I
Speaker 1: look at an architect's work sometimes I'm more interested in
Speaker 1: their flat sites and what they're able to achieve with
Speaker 1: the less interesting land. I mean, do you do you
Speaker 1: think that's in some cases, you know, more telling of
Speaker 1: the architect is what they do with the less interesting
Speaker 1: sites or pieces of land within a routing.
Speaker 2: Well, you kind of gain in a perspective on what
Speaker 2: their principles are and what they value. You know, the
Speaker 2: angles are still there on a flat piece of ground.
Speaker 2: You know, there might not be as much up and down,
Speaker 2: but a lot of what makes the game interesting is
Speaker 2: just that the angles along the lay of the land.
Speaker 2: When I was over in Britain, actually in our Irreland,
Speaker 2: I visited Portmarnock and this guy walks up to me
Speaker 2: and he says, what are you doing? And I explained, well,
Speaker 2: I'm out here studying the golf course. And after a
Speaker 2: pleasant conversation, he turned to me again and said, well,
Speaker 2: I could sum up your what you're doing in one word,
Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, you know, okay, over the
Speaker 2: course of this year, I've had some interesting conversations with golfers,
Speaker 2: kind of impromptu situations. It'll be something else to hear
Speaker 2: what this guy has to say and his one word
Speaker 2: was angles, and I could not argue with him. So
Speaker 2: you know, on a flat piece of ground, you still
Speaker 2: have that theoretical opportunity to create really enticing strategies.
Speaker 1: For the layman. What would you when they're trying to
Speaker 1: evaluate golf courses that they play, how would you? What
Speaker 1: would you say is your basic piece of advice for
Speaker 1: looking at a golf course and determining whether you know
Speaker 1: it's a good course or and obviously it's not this
Speaker 1: black and white or a you know, uninspiring bad course.
Speaker 2: Sure well, sometimes you have to say, okay, I'm critiquing
Speaker 2: this golf course and I don't know what the constraints
Speaker 2: are that the architect ran into, so you have to
Speaker 2: give them some leeway there. But you know, when you
Speaker 2: see repetitive aspects of a golf course that you either
Speaker 2: do or don't like, you know, obviously that plays into
Speaker 2: a theme. And as we were talking when we were
Speaker 2: walking around the course today, you know, I tend to
Speaker 2: like to strike a balance and develop variety. So if
Speaker 2: you feel like you ran into a lot of different
Speaker 2: experiences over the course of the eighteen holes, or again
Speaker 2: would it whatever number of holes you're playing, then I
Speaker 2: think that's a winner. You know, there's obviously other attributes,
Speaker 2: and we can all critique principles, and we can critique
Speaker 2: maximalism and minimalism and the varied ways of looking at
Speaker 2: the profession architecture. But to me, if you can create
Speaker 2: variety and either create a theme that feels like it fits,
Speaker 2: or create a golf course that feels like it has
Speaker 2: natural interest and perhaps a bit of flair, then you're
Speaker 2: on the right path.
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Speaker 1: s I PC. Now back to Dave ZINCN. So you're
Speaker 1: you're working on a book, tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about about that that process and it's gonna be a process.
Speaker 1: It's gotta be a self loving writing process. That's that's
Speaker 1: somebody generally, the process of writing. Yeah, you know, you see,
Speaker 1: uh you see these movies where there's a a writer
Speaker 1: trying to get through the winner or on such situation
Speaker 1: and uh, things go downhill.
Speaker 2: Uh. It's a it's kind of a labor of love
Speaker 2: to me, because I think that you know golfers, and
Speaker 2: you know the people who are passionate want to read
Speaker 2: about it, and and and I think that golf course
Speaker 2: architects need to take time to educate golfers and help
Speaker 2: them understand why we're doing the apparently seemingly insane things
Speaker 2: that we do, so that they better have a sense
Speaker 2: of the rationale behind the principles that that press us
Speaker 2: forward and that we get excited about. But the process
Speaker 2: of writing, for me as an amateur is very challenging.
Speaker 2: So I have high respect for what you do, having
Speaker 2: to write so much content and keeping it well, you
Speaker 2: keep it interesting, and but you've got good subject matter
Speaker 2: to work with, and you get around and and and
Speaker 2: create inspiration for yourself through that process. So I think
Speaker 2: that's that's big. And and I've got inspiration for at
Speaker 2: least one book that I hope helps to display the
Speaker 2: principles that I think press golf past convention.
Speaker 1: So what's the kind of premise behind the book? Really
Speaker 1: it's a you know, educating golfers about architecture and the
Speaker 1: principles behind it. What type of stuff are you are
Speaker 1: you hoping to achieve from it?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, convention was that the ongoing aspect of
Speaker 2: this conversation that I want to try and help some
Speaker 2: people break with to the extent that I can. And
Speaker 2: you know, aspects of why fasted firm golf and the
Speaker 2: running game and stopping worrying about immaculate conditioning, you know,
Speaker 2: all those things that make golf more of what it
Speaker 2: was when the Scottish you know, first started playing it.
Speaker 2: Moving in that direction is appealing to me. And trying
Speaker 2: to explain the reasons why that's valuable. You know, as
Speaker 2: you've talked about in the past, and I've always thought about,
Speaker 2: there's so many counterintuitive aspects of golf, and it's I
Speaker 2: think it's valuable to think about why those are the way.
Speaker 1: They are, Like the concept of fair.
Speaker 2: Like the concept of fair, I mean you look at
Speaker 2: fair and if fair is bunker left, bunker right, best
Speaker 2: player hits the ball down the middle and has nothing
Speaker 2: to worry about all day, and worst player keeps hitting
Speaker 2: the ball into a bunker on either side of the
Speaker 2: fairway or either side of the green, and just is
Speaker 2: you know, they they're just gonna break down. And if
Speaker 2: that's what fair is, then why are we even playing
Speaker 2: the game? You know, if we're out there trying to
Speaker 2: play some form of nature, there's going to be a
Speaker 2: lot of asymmetry involved and angles and interest. And as
Speaker 2: a result of all that, then you you know, you
Speaker 2: find your own avenues. You know, doesn't matter what caliber
Speaker 2: of player you are, you find options and avenues on
Speaker 2: a really interesting golf course that that presses away from
Speaker 2: you know, the conventional view of bunker left, bunker right,
Speaker 2: fair way down the middle, something.
Speaker 1: That I've been asked by a few people I obviously
Speaker 1: believe in, and I think you're in the same boat.
Speaker 1: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but
Speaker 1: that golf of course, architecture should bring the higher handicap
Speaker 1: and lower handicap closer. But a lot you know, I'll
Speaker 1: get pushed back from people that say, why would why
Speaker 1: would that? Like, if you're reducing the you know, the
Speaker 1: skill advantage, why is that good?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, in a practical world, you can't expect
Speaker 2: everybody to be a scratch golfer, and even the majority
Speaker 2: of people who play golf and play it passionately will
Speaker 2: never be a scratch golfer. They're never going to be
Speaker 2: below a five handicap. And so having the ability to
Speaker 2: go out there and enjoy a course and make your
Speaker 2: way around in your own path, by your own choosing,
Speaker 2: creating your own adventure on a journey that the golf course,
Speaker 2: architect and nature have laid out, is you know, that's essential.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. I also think that a golf course
Speaker 1: that brings the handicaps together to a certain extent, what
Speaker 1: it does is it it allows an average player who's
Speaker 1: a great putter to shoot better scores, you know, than
Speaker 1: so in a sense, it makes all the skill more
Speaker 1: equal in value. You know, a very penal golf course
Speaker 1: from tee to green is going to clearly favor the
Speaker 1: person that hits the ball very well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that gets back to that whole variety thing that
Speaker 2: is so important to me. Creating that variety makes for
Speaker 2: a more interesting round for everybody. But it also, like
Speaker 2: you're implying, it just goes ahead and offers the chance
Speaker 2: for a player who doesn't have a certain shot in
Speaker 2: his bag or does have a shot in their bag
Speaker 2: that is particular, to be able to take advantage of
Speaker 2: that or nullify the advantage that somebody else has because
Speaker 2: they do or don't have that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that's why you want to want
Speaker 1: something that asks a variety and a great number of
Speaker 1: questions throughout the round. I think that's what the greatest
Speaker 1: golf courses do is they ask a lot of questions,
Speaker 1: and you know, they ask the good player to hit
Speaker 1: a lot of different shots. And if you don't feel
Speaker 1: good about one aspect of your game, it's probably going
Speaker 1: to expose that aspect of the game for sure.
Speaker 2: It's not that you shouldn't actually sort of suffer the
Speaker 2: consequences of not having a shot. I mean, if you
Speaker 2: can't play a running shot and you get to Bandon
Speaker 2: and it's a windy day, you are going to suffer
Speaker 2: the consequences. And if all you can do is play
Speaker 2: a running shot and you play a parkland golf course
Speaker 2: that's overwatered, you're going to be miserable. You know. So
Speaker 2: the more diversity that you can provide, it just seems
Speaker 2: to me like it naturally allows for not a level
Speaker 2: playing field, but an opportunity for anybody to strive or succeed.
Speaker 1: What are your biggest highest profile projects is desert forests
Speaker 1: in the Scottsdale area, and that I think in many
Speaker 1: cases people have struggled with designing in the desert. What
Speaker 1: are the unique challenges and how you overcame designing in
Speaker 1: the desert and making something that was interesting given the
Speaker 1: constraints of the setting.
Speaker 2: Sure well, when we built when I was working for
Speaker 2: Coren Crenshaw, when we built the Suarrow course at Wikopa
Speaker 2: out there kind of northeast to Scottsdale, I was told
Speaker 2: that I needed to go see desert forest. And when
Speaker 2: I got there, I immediately understood why. Because Red Lawrence
Speaker 2: created some an amazing routing. It's a very simple routing
Speaker 2: out and back out and back heading east from the clubhouse.
Speaker 1: But.
Speaker 2: He accomplished a tremendous amount with the fairways and how
Speaker 2: they just eight on the land and he built they
Speaker 2: worked with those natural contours and then they built perch
Speaker 2: greens and so being an early desert golf course. In fact,
Speaker 2: that's really the first desert style course in the world.
Speaker 2: Because there were parkland golf courses out in Arizona and
Speaker 2: out in the desert elsewhere, but there was never something
Speaker 2: that was trying to integrate itself truly into the environment.
Speaker 2: But being that, you know, the fairways are narrow, the
Speaker 2: course was built on a fairly shoestring budget, and having
Speaker 2: the balance between those natural rippling fairways and then perched
Speaker 2: greens brought me to a point where I felt like, Okay,
Speaker 2: when I was the commission to put together a master plan,
Speaker 2: the best thing I could do was to bring those
Speaker 2: bring those fairways as far along as they as I could,
Speaker 2: knowing that they were already such such they're just glorious,
Speaker 2: you know, lay of the lands sections aground, and as
Speaker 2: a result, balance what was going on with the perch
Speaker 2: greens out there. The perch greens that desert forest are
Speaker 2: so challenging. They are kind of that middle ground modern
Speaker 2: aerial target style golf. It's very demanding and does sort
Speaker 2: of take some people out of the game in terms
Speaker 2: of the challenge that they create, or at least at
Speaker 2: the very least, you know, just make it really difficult
Speaker 2: to get around the place.
Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting. I think that's kind of the
Speaker 1: evolution in a way of you know, Rainer built the
Speaker 1: perch greens and banks. Obviously the perch greens very lay
Speaker 1: of the land fairways, they kind of moved the earth
Speaker 1: at the at the green site, especially on uninteresting land.
Speaker 1: And then you had Langford and Moreau who did the
Speaker 1: did similar stuff where they and it sounds like, you know,
Speaker 1: in a way it was you know, of course that
Speaker 1: evolved more so from Golden Age principle than the residing
Speaker 1: principles that of the given time, right, would you say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lawrence was really interested in shot making and he
Speaker 2: had a good understanding of that with his background, and
Speaker 2: he really took advantage of that in what he did
Speaker 2: on the fairways. And when I got there and I
Speaker 2: was trying to figure out, okay, there was early on
Speaker 2: there was kind of a push by a lot of
Speaker 2: the better golfers who felt like Desert Forest, which has
Speaker 2: not had much work done on it over the years,
Speaker 2: like it was falling in terms of its prestige because
Speaker 2: it wasn't challenging enough to the better player. And in
Speaker 2: some ways that was true. It did need to kind
Speaker 2: of ramp up the test for the best of golfers.
Speaker 2: It was built in sixty two or open in sixty
Speaker 2: two and really hadn't changed much since then, so there
Speaker 2: was definitely work to be had there. But when I
Speaker 2: looked at the golf course and I heard people saying, well,
Speaker 2: we really want to see you make this as tough
Speaker 2: as you can while you're here, I thought to myself, No, no,
Speaker 2: we need to keep this golf course exactly what it
Speaker 2: is right now in terms of the level of difficulty.
Speaker 2: And as Brad Klein said to me after we finished
Speaker 2: the work, and we achieved the holy grail of golf
Speaker 2: course architecture in terms of bringing handicaps together and the
Speaker 2: better than as I understand it, when the analysis was
Speaker 2: analysis was done of handicaps. There people that were under
Speaker 2: a five handicap, their handicaps went up by half a
Speaker 2: stroke or they were scoring half a stroke higher, and
Speaker 2: people who were over five for a handicap, their strokes
Speaker 2: went down by a full stroke on average. So you know,
Speaker 2: it was an effort to go at and make sure
Speaker 2: that when we did address the perched screens, we did
Speaker 2: so in a way that would accommodate, you know, the
Speaker 2: higher handicap er. And you know we did that in
Speaker 2: very limited fashion because we wanted to preserve the great
Speaker 2: attributes of the golf courses as already was. But that
Speaker 2: was a huge aspect of working on the green complexes.
Speaker 1: What type of stuff would did you do it? Desert
Speaker 1: forest that achieved that? If there's maybe one specific example.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, contouring was the biggest thing, you know. I mean,
Speaker 2: there were certainly places where the bunker layout changed to
Speaker 2: introduce more variety in how the holes fit together as
Speaker 2: a collection, but supportive contouring, I mean, if you want
Speaker 2: to look at one big thing, it was really the
Speaker 2: fact that the approaches gained more support. It looks in
Speaker 2: some ways if you've played out there in the past
Speaker 2: and then you go out there and play today, it
Speaker 2: looks at least as intimidating, if not more than it
Speaker 2: did before because of the esthetic and the rolls off
Speaker 2: of the greens, the rolls into the bunkers. But we
Speaker 2: actually widened approaches and supported the ground running up into
Speaker 2: the green in an effort to improve playability, improve drainage,
Speaker 2: and just make it a more fun place to get around.
Speaker 2: And you know, when members got out there and saw
Speaker 2: the rugged new bunkering style and the roll offs that
Speaker 2: fall into those bunkers. You know, it kind of appeared
Speaker 2: like maybe we were trying to make the place more
Speaker 2: difficult for them, But in truth those were a little
Speaker 2: bit wider and a little deceptive in what they were
Speaker 2: actually accomplishing.
Speaker 1: That I feel like deceptions of big aspect that sometimes
Speaker 1: golfers don't understand is a bunker that's, you know, twenty
Speaker 1: yards behind the green or twenty yards short of the
Speaker 1: green is there. And to a certain extent, how much
Speaker 1: does deception play a role with the advent of the rangefinder?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. Sort of takes a lot out, doesn't it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because guys like you and I,
Speaker 2: we play with a variety of people, including the the
Speaker 2: person who watches a rangefinder come out of your bag
Speaker 2: and says, put that thing away. You know, we're not
Speaker 2: we're not playing with those today. And then you know,
Speaker 2: so many people are just constantly pulling them out of
Speaker 2: their bag and they don't have to take an extra
Speaker 2: you know, thirty steps and find ahead or or you know,
Speaker 2: just sort of figure it out on their own and
Speaker 2: it might improve the speed of play. But I I
Speaker 2: don't really have a great answer to that question.
Speaker 1: A golf course on the kind of opposite end of
Speaker 1: the era that you've had a claimed work on as
Speaker 1: Old Elm where you were working on a Harry Cult
Speaker 1: Donald Ross course in my neck of the woods in
Speaker 1: the Chicago area. Tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 1: work there, and you know in that project in general,
Speaker 1: I mean huge transformation for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know that whole thing started when Curtis James,
Speaker 2: who you just recently had on and Drew Rogers and
Speaker 2: Kevin Marion. We're pressing forward on trying to take it,
Speaker 2: take full advantage of the heritage that that place has.
Speaker 2: So the heritage of buld Elm Club is a Harry
Speaker 2: Colt layout built by Donald Ross and at a time,
Speaker 2: you know, nineteen twelve, at a time when Donald Ross
Speaker 2: was there, you know, actually building those greens. So you know,
Speaker 2: when you look at the notes that Harry Colt left,
Speaker 2: it's clear that Ross took some liberties. And you see
Speaker 2: that ROSSI and style green. You know a bit of
Speaker 2: that as people say, you know, Turtleback Green like number
Speaker 2: two out there, legendary, how difficult and demanding that green
Speaker 2: is and how slick those sides are. But you know,
Speaker 2: our mission became to take full advantage of that hybridization
Speaker 2: between Donald Ross's greens and Harry Colt's layout, and Harry
Speaker 2: Colt had left, you know, a lot of notes and
Speaker 2: diagrams regarding the bunkering. Well over the years people had
Speaker 2: had the sense to leave the Ross greens into act,
Speaker 2: and since Harry Colt's bunkers were maybe not built exactly
Speaker 2: the way that they were imagined on paper and in
Speaker 2: Colt's head, those had basically vanished and some renovations had
Speaker 2: eliminated eliminated those concepts. So we took his notes for
Speaker 2: those torn, rugged, jagged bunkers and the placements of them
Speaker 2: and used those to get as much of that hybridization
Speaker 2: of the Ross Greens, the Colt layout and the Colt
Speaker 2: bunkering as we could and really bring that to the forefront.
Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that Colt is very
Speaker 2: well known for is his bunker placement in terms of
Speaker 2: not trying to place a bunker where people conventionally expect it,
Speaker 2: but going ahead and putting it where the ground and
Speaker 2: interest dictates. And so you know, you get back to
Speaker 2: that diversity that I love and enjoy, and I know
Speaker 2: it's kind of getting off the topic, but you know,
Speaker 2: just thinking about that place and the ongoing work that
Speaker 2: I've had over there, you just can't help but love
Speaker 2: the opportunity, loving the opportunity to be involved with that
Speaker 2: hybridization of the two architects, and the chance to work
Speaker 2: with those guys. You know, it's been a great club
Speaker 2: to work with. And Kevin's always been great. And Curtis
Speaker 2: is he's a go getter like nobody.
Speaker 1: He's he's a wild man. Yeah he is, you could tell.
Speaker 1: He just he loves the loves the construction end of
Speaker 1: everything and transformation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what a lot of those guys the
Speaker 2: business loop for is that transformation.
Speaker 1: I mean, I played that place in high school, and
Speaker 1: I mean what it is now is unbelievably different than
Speaker 1: you know, the early two thousands. And the thing that's
Speaker 1: amazing is like how subtly great of a site it
Speaker 1: is for Chicago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you look at it from the street and you're like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: you know, that place must its reputation must be on
Speaker 2: its membership. But but it's as a golf course, it's
Speaker 2: a whole lot of fun. There's a lot going on
Speaker 2: out there. Once you actually get down hunkered into the
Speaker 2: into the terrain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean where the way that Colt routed
Speaker 1: the course over that terrain to use the you know
Speaker 1: few the few really good features and knolls that Chicago
Speaker 1: just doesn't really have a lot of those, And and
Speaker 1: it has a few there, and you know where you're
Speaker 1: on one little ridge and there's five greens and four
Speaker 1: t boxes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I think people assume that you
Speaker 2: just need this dynamite piece of ground that has so
Speaker 2: much interest to it inherently, and the reality is that
Speaker 2: you've only got eighteen holes. So if you can really
Speaker 2: thoughtfully figure out how to lay out a course like
Speaker 2: Colt did there, or like Lawrence did a desert forest,
Speaker 2: you can get that diversity that you need to keep
Speaker 2: every hole interesting and you don't need to beat everybody
Speaker 2: over the head anyways. You know, if every hole is
Speaker 2: intended to be fireworks and postcards, then I don't know
Speaker 2: that you're striking that balance in that variety of interest
Speaker 2: that I like to see in a golf course. You know,
Speaker 2: I want the next hole to be different than the last.
Speaker 1: How much did your time in the UK help with
Speaker 1: that understanding Colt's work there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, my impression of Cult came to be
Speaker 2: in some ways very similar to my impression of Corn Crenshaw,
Speaker 2: where it's very thoughtful and very principled and at times
Speaker 2: somewhat conservative. But as a result, I know of them have
Speaker 2: ever really gotten themselves into all that much trouble, you know,
Speaker 2: and by trouble I mean just sort of overworking it
Speaker 2: and overthinking it and creating something that you just feel like, wow,
Speaker 2: that's that is really manipulated beyond something I expect to
Speaker 2: see through the course of this round. You know, you
Speaker 2: do play some golf course, some modern golf courses, where
Speaker 2: you play a couple holes and you're just like, well,
Speaker 2: how does that fit into this round? And I don't
Speaker 2: think you find that on a Cult course or one
Speaker 2: of Bill and Ben's.
Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about it today on the
Speaker 1: golf course. But like, it's that restraint, and yeah, it's
Speaker 1: got to be. One of the hardest things is when
Speaker 1: you know you can do something, but you're not sure
Speaker 1: if it's the right thing to do, and like doing
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a lot of times as golf,
Speaker 1: you know, it applies to golf in general. Doing less
Speaker 1: is sometimes more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there was that period of time. Actually,
Speaker 2: there were a number of American style golf courses everybody
Speaker 2: referred to them that had been built prior to my
Speaker 2: arrival in Britain, and they always struck me as very thematic.
Speaker 2: And by thematic, I mean you know there was conceptually
Speaker 2: there was a constant effort to create sort of similar
Speaker 2: contouring and similar effects, and and just the Earth War
Speaker 2: got rep repetitive over the course of those golf courses,
Speaker 2: and you know, it happened over here a lot too,
Speaker 2: and I think as a result, you can get yourself
Speaker 2: into real trouble, Like if you look at the maintenance,
Speaker 2: just just the cost of maintenance on a course like that,
Speaker 2: that gets very thematic and is repetitive. You don't ever
Speaker 2: have a chance to let off the pedal. You have
Speaker 2: to you know, you've got eighteen of those to take
Speaker 2: care of. Whereas if you have variety, Yeah, you might
Speaker 2: have some some big massive bunkers or sweeps of sand
Speaker 2: or you know, difficult greens to maintain slopes and you know,
Speaker 2: all these features that can be instilled in a golf course.
Speaker 2: But if you work with variety rather than kind of
Speaker 2: keeping pressing the same key on the piano. You avoid
Speaker 2: that those maintenance issues, and again, like I've said earlier,
Speaker 2: you just create the variety that you need to keep interest,
Speaker 2: and I think that's more compelling than something that gets
Speaker 2: too thematic and is artificial.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to a certain extent, I see this a lot
Speaker 1: as I travel and I'm looking at golf courses to
Speaker 1: play in different towns and to see it's like a
Speaker 1: lot of the more expensive courses are the ones that
Speaker 1: were built during an era and they were probably really
Speaker 1: expensive to build, and now they're really expensive to maintain.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, I think there was a
Speaker 2: time when, and I heard this a lot back in
Speaker 2: you know, around my college days, where people said the
Speaker 2: budget is or was unlimited, and that might work for
Speaker 2: a few years, but you know, things are not always rosy,
Speaker 2: as we found out in two thousand and seven, two
Speaker 2: thousand and eight. You know, things can go downhill. And
Speaker 2: just because you built something that is dramatic for eighteen
Speaker 2: consecutive holes doesn't mean that you're going to maintain those
Speaker 2: the way they're built for the next twenty thirty years.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's it. That's it. I mean, that's the balance too,
Speaker 1: and that's where restraint. I mean, like you said, you know,
Speaker 1: you have one hole that's got swathed of sand and
Speaker 1: you know and big, bold bunkering. But then maybe on
Speaker 1: another part of the prior to the land, there's a
Speaker 1: hole with you know, great contours that don't require really
Speaker 1: hazards and no bunkering. And then that hole from a
Speaker 1: maintenance perspective, is completely you know, easier to take care of.
Speaker 1: But you know, you put together the whole thing. So
Speaker 1: what do you guys, what are you working on now?
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny that you asked that right at the
Speaker 2: moment because we're well, for instance, Luke Donald and I
Speaker 2: teamed up to do some work and we are really
Speaker 2: about to sign a contract with the folks at Canal Shores,
Speaker 2: who I've you know, been talking to over a number
Speaker 2: of years. Has has Luke, and that's kind of how
Speaker 2: our relationship began. And we really see it as a
Speaker 2: cool opportunity to promote the game and give back and
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: So be a community golf project. Yeah, do it for
Speaker 1: the kids. Yeah, ironically, that's what the golf course my
Speaker 1: grandfather grew up playing on. So nice. What types of stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're designing for a community, and obviously
Speaker 1: there's a lot of unique characteristics to that course where
Speaker 1: you play up and down a canal, there's it's you know,
Speaker 1: pretty narrow corridors. What types of stuff are you are
Speaker 1: you going to kind of I have to achieve for
Speaker 1: a community project like that.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, you're limited on width on that property
Speaker 2: because as anybody who knows who's been there, you know,
Speaker 2: it's two strips of land, like two airplane strips of
Speaker 2: land on either side of a big cut canal that
Speaker 2: was artificially built. And so we're constantly going to be
Speaker 2: trying to take advantage of the width that we have
Speaker 2: available and also trying to you know, one of the
Speaker 2: big things that I think is fun about that is
Speaker 2: you sort of touched on it earlier about where your
Speaker 2: friends want to play in Chicago on public courses and
Speaker 2: your reluctance to go to too many places. And I'm
Speaker 2: not saying I don't I'm not trying to be negative
Speaker 2: about public golf in Chicago, because I don't really know
Speaker 2: public golf in Chicago, but I will say that, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a great diversity of awesome private clubs and the
Speaker 2: people that I know who are well versed in those
Speaker 2: say that, yeah, that's great, but there's kind of a
Speaker 2: lack of really great architecture on the public courses, so
Speaker 2: we really want to bring and draw some of the
Speaker 2: inspired architecture from the private courses there and bring that
Speaker 2: out onto canal shores. I think that would be so
Speaker 2: fun to allow kids to grow up playing holes that
Speaker 2: are sympathetic to that kind of Golden Age architecture and
Speaker 2: also introduce them to things that they will see hopefully
Speaker 2: down the road when they're playing in amateur events at
Speaker 2: private clubs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the coolest aspect of you know you I
Speaker 1: think about this all the time and it's like, why
Speaker 1: it's important for you know, state golf associations to get
Speaker 1: their championships at the best courses for the kids. Is like,
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter for me as Joe Midham,
Speaker 1: but like that kid, you know, as I was a
Speaker 1: kid that grew up playing Lake Bluff Golf Club, which
Speaker 1: was a nothing public course, and I'll never forget when
Speaker 1: I would go to tournaments at a private club as
Speaker 1: a junior, there was always like, oh, these greens are
Speaker 1: so fast and you can't be above this flag. And
Speaker 1: I was lucky a caddie at some private clubs, so
Speaker 1: I got over that. But then there's the big first
Speaker 1: shock when you play in your first State Am and
Speaker 1: it's like, well, this is way different than you know,
Speaker 1: what I was playing in junior golf. And then you
Speaker 1: get and you play in a USGA event and it's
Speaker 1: a whole nother thing. But if you have good design
Speaker 1: that's you know, available at a municipal level, that bridge
Speaker 1: is the gap. There's one last big transition that the
Speaker 1: kid has to make if they want to play you know,
Speaker 1: golfing and also just from a regular per like even
Speaker 1: if they aren't a competitive golfer, when they get in
Speaker 1: life and they get to a nice club, they aren't
Speaker 1: you know, completely blown out of the water by the
Speaker 1: golf course there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you want that kid to continue to
Speaker 2: have interest in the game, you need to show them
Speaker 2: that variety that's out there, because that is one of
Speaker 2: the compelling aspects of our sport is all the opportunity
Speaker 2: to you know, tomorrow, when I go to the next
Speaker 2: venue and play, it is going to be completely different
Speaker 2: than the one I played today, you know, And it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter sometimes if it's you know a place that
Speaker 2: you stuff a few dollars into a box and go
Speaker 2: out there and play, and or if it's you know,
Speaker 2: some of the fancies clubs. You know that diversity is appealing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's right. And it's always goes back to
Speaker 1: what I say. It's like, if you wanted, if you
Speaker 1: wanted to get somebody interested in tacos, you wouldn't take
Speaker 1: them to the worst taco shop. Like, you got to
Speaker 1: take them to taco shop. That's good. It's like, so
Speaker 1: that's where the public off is the most. That's where
Speaker 1: it should be the most interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you want to see that diversity. It's funny,
Speaker 2: you know because when you told me that you wanted
Speaker 2: to get together and play and you would like to
Speaker 2: do the podcast, I thought to myself, you know, I'd
Speaker 2: kind of like to turn this interview around on Andy
Speaker 2: and ask you what was it that has gotten you
Speaker 2: to a point where you sort of appreciate a lot
Speaker 2: of the things that I do. You know, fast and
Speaker 2: firm and and trying to avoid the sense of fair
Speaker 2: in architecture, and you appreciate a lot of the counterintuitive
Speaker 2: aspects and strategic variety that I'm into. You know, I
Speaker 2: know obviously with the opportunity to go over to Britain
Speaker 2: on the Dream Award that it had a huge influence
Speaker 2: on me. How did you end up getting to this
Speaker 2: point and in this philosophy that you have.
Speaker 1: I think, I think the I mean, you read stuff.
Speaker 1: I read stuff. I've always was interested in it. I
Speaker 1: got the opportunity to play. I grew up in like Bluff,
Speaker 1: so I got to play short acres as a kid.
Speaker 1: You always knew there was something different, something that was
Speaker 1: special about that place. And I think the the when
Speaker 1: I when I got into doing this, like, what I
Speaker 1: started to really thirst for was different experiences. It's the variety.
Speaker 1: And then you start to see more stuff and you
Speaker 1: start to you know, you think about the stuff that's
Speaker 1: really thrilling, like and it becomes I became much less
Speaker 1: of a you know, score dependent person, much less of
Speaker 1: a competitive golfer, and much more of just someone that
Speaker 1: was enjoying being outside walking and looking at you know,
Speaker 1: unique aspects of the game, uh and unique aspects of
Speaker 1: a given golf course. And then you started to think
Speaker 1: about what are the features and the characteristics that give
Speaker 1: you the most thrill and they kind of not knowing
Speaker 1: where you want to hit it is like a great thing.
Speaker 1: Like I actually love one of my favorite things is
Speaker 1: when I get when I'm playing a golf course for
Speaker 1: the first time and you know, I don't use a
Speaker 1: yardage book really we got them today, but I opened
Speaker 1: one one time. But like when I'm playing a golf
Speaker 1: course and I think this is where I should hit it,
Speaker 1: and then I get up there and I realized, well,
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have hit it here. I should have hit
Speaker 1: it complete opposite the other side of the fairway. Like that,
Speaker 1: that's the stuff that I really enjoy. So it's the counterintuitiveness,
Speaker 1: the you know, the blind that act like blind shots.
Speaker 1: I love. I love that idea of not knowing where
Speaker 1: your ball is going to be and where it ended up.
Speaker 1: You think you hit a good shot, but that that walk, like,
Speaker 1: especially if you're going over hill, like you're walking over hill,
Speaker 1: Like what makes that walk over hill really nice is
Speaker 1: when you don't know where it is because like you're
Speaker 1: not thinking about walking up the hill.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Don't really know where I whether I answer your question,
Speaker 1: but yeah, then it's become like I've become much less
Speaker 1: about just grabbing the lab wedg around the greens is
Speaker 1: much more about like pulling the seven iron out and
Speaker 1: just seeing where to where to how to hit it.
Speaker 1: And it's not as much about trying to hit it
Speaker 1: close as it's more fun to seeing the ball use
Speaker 1: the contour or run in there. I so for people
Speaker 1: that are pencil and scorecard people, that might sound crazy,
Speaker 1: but you know, I enjoy golf more now than ever
Speaker 1: before because I'm I don't care what I shoot. I
Speaker 1: may have a great time regardless of whether I can
Speaker 1: hit the ball, you know, can't keep the ball on
Speaker 1: the planet, or whether I'm playing the best round you
Speaker 1: know in weeks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Ben and I have had conversations about some
Speaker 2: of the things that you're talking about, and that mystery,
Speaker 2: as Ben would refer to it, is is a big deal.
Speaker 2: And that's you see that on a lot of great
Speaker 2: Golden Age golf courses, and when things got very conventional
Speaker 2: there for a few decades, you know, that mystery kind
Speaker 2: of went away. So it's always, yeah, compelling to go
Speaker 2: out there.
Speaker 1: And he said, that's the thing is the game is
Speaker 1: so great because it's challenging. If it was easy, it
Speaker 1: would be way less of a game. Like it wouldn't.
Speaker 1: But one of the things that golf has that everywhere else,
Speaker 1: every other sport has doesn't have, is like golf has
Speaker 1: people that are just absolute nuts. Like my wife isn't
Speaker 1: a golfer. She thinks we're all just crazy. We're all
Speaker 1: batshit crazy. And you know the only reason why is
Speaker 1: because the game is so hard. Like whether you shoot,
Speaker 1: whether you're a plus four handicap and shoots sixty seven
Speaker 1: or a fifteen handicap that shoots eighty two, those people
Speaker 1: get off the golf course after great rounds and they're
Speaker 1: thinking about, man, if I would have just made that putt,
Speaker 1: or I wouldn't hit that stupid web shot, I would
Speaker 1: have I could have shot this, Like what other sport
Speaker 1: Like if you win by twenty five. In basketball, everybody's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was great, nobody belaboring, you know, as miss three pointer.
Speaker 1: But in golf, like it's this. It's so achievable yet
Speaker 1: so unachievable in the same sense for sure.
Speaker 2: And you know, you can go out and play the
Speaker 2: same course tomorrow that you played today, and the worst
Speaker 2: hole that you had today may end up being the
Speaker 2: best hole that you played tomorrow, because tomorrow is a
Speaker 2: completely another day, and that's an enjoyable aspect to the adventure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the interest of the best part about
Speaker 1: it is being is that thin line. And I think
Speaker 1: this is there's a thin line and design. Everything with
Speaker 1: golf is a thin line, but like the thin line
Speaker 1: of teetering on perfection and brilliance and success and just disaster.
Speaker 1: And the greatest golf courses force you to to flirt
Speaker 1: with the line a lot of times in order to
Speaker 1: reap the success. But you can play away from it,
Speaker 1: but you're never gonna you can't play away from it
Speaker 1: all day. I think you know, Bill on the podcast
Speaker 1: he had when he was talking about the second hole
Speaker 1: at Talking Stick was great. He's like, you know, you
Speaker 1: can play left and you can play away from the
Speaker 1: trouble all day long, you know, until you know you
Speaker 1: can get it all the way up by the green,
Speaker 1: But eventually you're gonna have to hit that shot around
Speaker 1: the green and you got the trouble still, Like, eventually
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to face the trouble.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's why golf on a flat hole can
Speaker 2: be very compelling.
Speaker 1: I think about that hole all the time. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: I played that, of course, way before I was into this,
Speaker 1: and I always remember that whole like I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's a great golfle. Yeah, so I got we we
Speaker 1: got a tight window. We gotta do this. You're gonna
Speaker 1: be in Chicago more so we'll have to do this again.
Speaker 1: We'll have part two at another time. So, Dave, thanks
Speaker 1: for coming on. People can find you. You're not real
Speaker 1: active on uh on social media.
Speaker 2: No, they can find me there though if they want to,
Speaker 2: if they want to rib me or they want to chat,
Speaker 2: they can find me there. But I tend to, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of concentrate on being a father and and work
Speaker 2: and you know, all the other things going on in life.