WEBVTT - David Zinkand 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.040 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.320 In today's episode, we are joined by golf course architect 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.600 Dave Zincn. Dave is an up and coming architect who's 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.520 worked for the likes of Coren Crenshaw, Gil Hans and 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.400 Arthur Hills while completing solo work of his own at 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.599 Desert Forest. Before we get into it with Dave, we 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.360 have a new limited edition New York City logo in 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.160 the pro shop for the upcoming PGA Championship at Bethpage. 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.880 We have a small run of hats from Imperial available 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:32.040 now and in the coming days we will have a 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.320 few selected items from b Draddy, so be on the 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.519 lookout for those. If you want a hat now, check 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.360 out the pro shop at www dot Thefridagg dot com 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.440 to get yours today. Now, without further ado, here's Dave Zincn. 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.839 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:51.960 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:53.000 And when I find my. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.560 Ball in a Frida Egg, Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Fridagg, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.800 Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to. 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:31.839 Run off of them. What do you think of Todd 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:32.800 hell Farm. 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.280 I had fun. You know, the biggest thing I came 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.959 away with again with Mike Strand's course is how he 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.840 makes it look more challenging than it really is. You know, 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:47.039 the holes seemed playable for sure. Obviously we're in a 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.440 wet stretch, so it's difficult, but I had a lot 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:50.800 of fun. 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.600 Do you think architecture would be any different had he 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.320 not passed early? Yeah, obviously there's a rising star in 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:04.520 the two thousand and complete opposite end of the spectrum 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:05.960 of what today's trying to are. 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:09.440 Really well, like we talked about up there on the course, 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.320 you know, there was some width that you might not 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:14.840 have seen from other architects at the time that he 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.760 was doing that, and that gave it some variety, some 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:23.840 options as for what he would have continued to do. Obviously, 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.360 you know that with was fundamental to the kind of 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:31.760 architecture he was producing, so you expect that to continue. 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:37.639 As far as the contribution, you know, I don't know 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.000 where it would have gone. 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:45.639 He's definitely on the maximalism scale of the spectrum versus 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.119 what you'd see from you know, Bill Krer, Ben Crenshaw, Tom. 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:54.160 Doak for sure. Yeah, there's a lot of earth moved 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.720 out there, especially in you know, right down the center 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.920 of the fairways, which you might you know, not necessarily expect, 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:07.280 although this ground is so severe that, yeah, a lot 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.080 of there's a lot of places out there where you 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.320 have to accomplish that to make it playable. 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:14.440 So you went to school at Cornell? 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:19.639 I did. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I loved it up there. 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.880 It was fun see the latest of the lineage of 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:25.799 Cornell grad architects. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:26.600 Yeah, I guess. 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:26.680 So. 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.919 It's funny because you know, when when I initially wanted 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:35.280 to go to Cornell, it was really a combination of 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.280 the fact that I could either choose to be at 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.920 one of the best architecture programs or landscape architecture programs 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:47.880 in the country, and then decide later once I had 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.080 gotten into the architecture program, whether I wanted to commit 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:55.560 to golf specifically or some other very form of design. 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.040 But I always knew I wanted to do design, so 0:03:58.560 --> 0:03:59.600 that's what led me there. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:01.400 What made you want to do golf? 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:06.000 For sure? Oh, I think it just calm. It combines 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:13.040 my interests, certainly the golf side, but also design and 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.240 the natural aesthetic. So it's just a perfect blend of 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.240 those three things. 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.320 So as you do the Drear Award, there I did, 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:28.480 So you spent The Drear Award is a essentially study 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:33.360 abroad program that Tom doak gil Hans of john Osso 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.359 where you spend a year and where'd you go to Scotland? 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.719 Yeah, I went to Britain and Ireland, traveled all over 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:49.240 basically was able to see, you know, just about everything 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.360 that was good over there. I spent. I went over 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:59.600 late in nineteen ninety seven and stayed through almost the 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:04.680 end of ninety eight and was able to start out 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.680 in the south while the weather was pretty poor and 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:13.320 visit a lot of heathland golf courses and that was 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.359 a real eye opener to get to see those. You know, 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.760 I knew that there was some amazing stuff along the coast, 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.120 but just to see what they accomplished on those heathland 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:29.760 courses when architecture was really burgeoning was an eye opener. 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.720 So like that would be like Saint Endicott area right 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:36.160 down there. 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:41.239 Well, I mean the prime section is southwest of London, 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:46.720 so Surrey, and you know, I mean that in some 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:50.720 ways it all started with Woking and went out from there. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:52.320 So that place is amazing. 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.960 Yeah, John Lowe, the bunker that changed golf, really. 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.800 It really did. And it's funny, you know, it continues 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:05.160 that counterintuitive conversation that we've talked about in the past, 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.400 where you know, maybe striking it down the middle is 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:15.000 not always the best option the best choice, and I 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.800 continue to believe that, you know, the most, the most 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.200 diversity that you can give a golfer through the course 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.000 of eighteen holes or however many holes you have to 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.760 play with, the better off you are. 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:30.800 Had you been to the UK before. 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:37.760 That, no, no, So when I got to Cornell, I 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:42.080 really knew that there, you know, as I said, there 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:48.799 were a great architecture landscape architecture program and Rtij Senior 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:54.440 had been you know, at Cornell, and that played into 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:58.920 the whole conversation that Tom Doak has continued to talk 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:04.719 about as his career progressed, about how Cornell provides you 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.200 an opportunity to study anything, you know, it's part of 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:14.680 the motto. And once I switched to the landscape architecture 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:19.120 program and began really committing myself to golf course design 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:24.360 as my focus, then you know, naturally, seeing what Tom 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:29.320 and gil Hans had done just meant it was the 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.280 thing that I needed to try and accomplish, and so 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:34.400 I made it a goal. I waited until my senior 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:39.600 year and applied and was fortunate enough to receive it. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.560 I was a little concerned about some burnout by the professors, 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:47.280 but fortunately they were very open minded, and I went 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.200 out of my way to research every aspect that I 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:54.040 could leading into it, because I knew that I needed 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:58.600 to put together a good proposal to to sort of 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.680 be in the hunt with all the other varied interests 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.920 that people in the horticulture and landscape architecture departments have. 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:09.720 So you did all this research beforehand. What were a 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:14.040 few things that kind of jumped out to you that 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:19.640 you didn't expect that you researched about the trip. 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:23.880 Well, you know, when you sit down and look at 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:29.640 a map of Britain, obviously that's a pretty jagged coast line, 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.640 and you start realizing that if you're going to visit 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.680 great golf courses, that you are going to spend a 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:42.560 lot of time traversing around to those remote places. So 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.959 that was interesting, and obviously then once I got over there, 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.720 I realized the value of the heathland courses and they 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:55.880 were so readily accessible right there around you know, I 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.720 was stationed in Woking. I found a place to stay 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.360 and woke, and that made it easy to get around 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:07.800 to so many of the courses right there. But then, 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.600 as far as leading into the trip, the big thing 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:17.240 for me was to read about what Tom and Gil 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.720 had written on their monthly letters that you send back 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:26.000 as part of the you know, the arrangement with the committee, 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.400 and to find out what they were learning. 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:28.880 You know. 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:34.480 Gil made comments about how anything goes, you know, and 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:38.080 there's a quote out there that's kind of brought up 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:42.920 every occasionally on the Internet about him saying that, and 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:48.200 you know, Tom would talk about diversity of PARR, you know, 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.679 and the fact that nobody gave a darn whether par 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.160 was seventy two, you know, and some of these fundamental 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:59.040 things that I don't look at as important conventions. As 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.320 a result of sending so much time there, you know, 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:05.800 it really allowed me and anybody else who spent time 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:10.120 over there to break away from convention and understand that, 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.640 you know, those things are only important to a certain extent. 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:20.320 Yeah, I mean, convention is something that gets in the 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.240 way of every you know, not every, but so many 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.480 of American golf projects. It's like a and I think 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.040 that's part of the part of the issue is that 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:35.040 we're kind of raised on convention. You know, the every 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.240 other sport is very conventional. There's very few that have 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.880 like a changing playing surface or playing field. You know, 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.120 football has always played one hundred yards, basketball course the 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:50.000 same same length, oops ten feet, you know, nothing. The 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.080 only thing that changes course really is baseball has just 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.400 different parks. But for the most part, golf's the only 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.360 one that has really different stuff from course to course. 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:08.240 For sure. The freedom, diversity, and adventure that you get 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.880 from a golf course is completely different than any other 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.839 sport that I guess either of us can can come 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:21.480 up with. So that's why in some ways I feel 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:26.040 like the court or the the game is as strong 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.720 as it is right now, despite the fact that it's 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.160 had so many setbacks, and I feel like some of 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:37.600 those setbacks were brought on by conventions that we adhered 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:43.000 to in the past. So moving forward, continuing with that 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.400 adventurous spirit, I think is a real essential part of 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:49.160 how the game can succeed. 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:55.520 Yes, so you're on the Polish side of defense, where 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:02.240 you golf detractors will say it's it's condensing, it's struggling. 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.720 Then you have some golf fanatics that are you know, 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.880 say it's thriving. You know, if you think about the 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.760 PGA Tour, they're always saying the game's thriving, it's never 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:16.840 been more popular. You fall on the positive end of 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:17.920 the spectrum. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:24.440 Well, I would say that I don't necessarily have a 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.720 take on where things are going relative to the tour 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:33.640 in that perspective. But and you know, with the conventional 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:39.200 golf widespread, you know, everybody's a golfer who plays, you know, 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.440 I don't know how few times a year. If they're 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.400 trying to add up those numbers, those numbers are probably 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:51.680 going down. But the passion and interest of guys like 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:56.680 yourself and you know, just a whole lot of people 0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:01.679 that I didn't realize, you know, kind of naturally gravitated 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:07.520 to the game that you and I really appreciate, is 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.160 as strong as I think it's ever been. 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.640 Yeah, i'd agree with that. I think that we're the 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:20.200 number of really, you know, the number of golfers might decrease, 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.760 but I think what we're seeing now is a more 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.600 passionate base of golfers that have more interests and more 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.680 aspects of the game, which is a good thing, you know, 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.760 like to have it because those are the types of 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.880 people that are going to lead to growth, is having 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.480 people that really love the game, because then their friends 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.320 are going to be like, why why is this guy 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.520 like this so much? Or why is this girl like 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.080 this so much? You know, I need to try it 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.600 out if they like it so much? Like why is 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.560 Andy getting up at the krack of dawn every weekend 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.079 to go play golf? You know. I know a lot 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.720 of my friends have gotten into it because of like that, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.080 you know, and then they get into it and they're like, 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.760 I don't know, I was missing out for so long. 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.079 So you feel like you draw friends into the game. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.400 Well I think I think, Yeah, they're more likely to 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.000 give it a try if one of their friends is 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:11.600 super into it, right for sure? 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.560 For sure you have to have yeah, yeah, any any 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.640 of these interests or hobbies, you've got to have somebody 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.119 kind of shows you the ropes. 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.040 Right, Yeah, it's hard to have somebody. And it's funny 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.760 because like my friends, what I think is interesting is 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.320 they you know, None of them are really golfers, and 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.880 now the way they play golf is the way I 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.680 play golf. They walk like they get mad when they 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:38.480 can't walk, which is fascinating to me because if you 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.920 looked at like the cross section of like you know, 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.760 the type of golfer they are. They are traditionally writers. 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.960 But because I walk, they walk, I think. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.280 Well, they're pushed into that and then they realize, Wow, 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.360 I get to have a nice walk, exercise, be outdoors, 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.520 include all these things in a little golfing adventure. Yeah. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.520 It's funny because like they'll ask me to play and 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.120 I'll ask where, and they're like I'll be like, no, 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.880 I'm not going to go play there. But if they 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.000 know if they asked me to play and they're playing 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.080 somewhere like Ravslow in Chicago, which is a dal ross 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.560 where like I love going to play there, I'll be like, oh, yeah, 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:16.200 I'm going to play, and they're like, the only place 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:17.960 we can get Andy to play it is if we 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.640 were going to play Ravislow, which is funny, and then 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.400 we walk and I mean that's one of the best 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:27.840 walking courses in the country. So you after Cornell, did 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.240 you start working for Corn Crenshaw right then. 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.560 No, when I got back, you know, I had a 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.720 kind of a diversity of experiences before I went to 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.800 work for Corn Crenshaw. I spent some time at Arthur 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.680 Hill's office, you know, while I was in school kind 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:47.840 of as an intern. I spent time working for Gil 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:53.920 Hants And wow, I mean he's just gone on an 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:58.120 amazing trajectory since I spent time working for him, And 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:03.520 it was really enjoy able to spend, you know, be 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.440 working under a guy who had that perspective that I 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:08.240 gained in Britain. 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.840 So what years was that? Was that early in his 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:15.960 solo career. 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.880 Right that was basically right around the turn of the century, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.360 just before that and right around there. 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:26.800 So those are you were working with him on some 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.440 of his early projects in Philly and and. 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.640 Well, I spent time at tall Grass And actually I 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:41.480 met my wife on Gil's job down in Alabama Capstone Club, 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:46.160 which no longer exists, although I think it's untouched, it's 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:55.240 just maybe not open. And it's funny. Gil received kind 0:16:55.240 --> 0:17:00.840 of a recommendation from Bill when Bill and Ben declined 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.880 to take that Capstone Club job. So Bill always likes 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.720 to tease me that He's the reason I met my wife. 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:10.080 It's pretty cool. 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.240 Yeah. Bill's good at finding ways to turn something into 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.280 a way to rib Yeah. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.400 What was that? What was the contrast like between Arthur 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.000 Hill's office and Gill's office. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.919 Or lack thereof of an office? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:35.520 mean that that's a traditional way of looking at the business. 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:40.919 I guess from from that era where you're designing in 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:46.400 the office and you know, more or less contracting someone 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.320 to build it out in the field, and obviously they're 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:54.120 making site visits. But to me, it became readily apparent 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:55.879 that if you wanted to do the best work, and 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.280 I didn't see much reason to get into the golf business, 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.320 if I wasn't going to be trying to do the 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.840 best work, that you had to have a presence in 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:11.280 the field. Plus, if you're somebody who loves golf, loves nature, 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:16.480 loves design, how could you not want to spend more 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.600 time on a golfing adventure out there in the dirt. 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.000 Of course, you know that means your golfing adventure on 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:27.480 the turf is going to decline rapidly, but I'm willing 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:28.160 to accept that. 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.600 Yeah. Yeah, So you know, the more time on site. Obviously, 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:37.840 you know the contractor there's there can be competing interests. 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:43.240 But with it with building golf courses, how much of 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:48.400 a thrill is it to really? Like? Are you more 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:52.679 on like do you really enjoy creating something or is 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.760 it more fun to see something and let the natural 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.879 kind of landscape tape gets to the course. 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.679 Yeah, you're kind of hitting back on that question that 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:10.080 Jason Way asked a while back in an article, And 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:15.480 in some ways I worked to evade the answer to 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.680 that because they're both so enjoyable. I mean, to go 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.000 out there and have an interesting piece of land that's 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:28.359 inspiring is just that inspiring. But to be able to 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.639 take a theoretical approach to a piece of property that 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:37.680 doesn't have as much interest and maybe needs that beat 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.640 into it is also, you know, kind of a great 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:49.040 thrill so to me, and I would really like to 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.919 continue on with the diversity of projects throughout my career 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:59.639 and not really gravitate towards one thing. Obviously you have 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.439 to she ate great land, but you don't have to 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.399 have great land to end up with great golf. 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:08.520 Yeah, that's true. I think I always am when I 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:14.320 look at an architect's work sometimes I'm more interested in 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.040 their flat sites and what they're able to achieve with 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.679 the less interesting land. I mean, do you do you 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:26.080 think that's in some cases, you know, more telling of 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.960 the architect is what they do with the less interesting 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:31.520 sites or pieces of land within a routing. 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.520 Well, you kind of gain in a perspective on what 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:42.280 their principles are and what they value. You know, the 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:44.800 angles are still there on a flat piece of ground. 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:47.560 You know, there might not be as much up and down, 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.719 but a lot of what makes the game interesting is 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.680 just that the angles along the lay of the land. 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.440 When I was over in Britain, actually in our Irreland, 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.520 I visited Portmarnock and this guy walks up to me 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:07.040 and he says, what are you doing? And I explained, well, 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:11.000 I'm out here studying the golf course. And after a 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:15.600 pleasant conversation, he turned to me again and said, well, 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.480 I could sum up your what you're doing in one word, 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.199 And I thought to myself, you know, okay, over the 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.920 course of this year, I've had some interesting conversations with golfers, 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.959 kind of impromptu situations. It'll be something else to hear 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:30.840 what this guy has to say and his one word 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:36.439 was angles, and I could not argue with him. So 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:38.520 you know, on a flat piece of ground, you still 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:43.879 have that theoretical opportunity to create really enticing strategies. 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:48.600 For the layman. What would you when they're trying to 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:52.239 evaluate golf courses that they play, how would you? What 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.080 would you say is your basic piece of advice for 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.679 looking at a golf course and determining whether you know 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.000 it's a good course or and obviously it's not this 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.840 black and white or a you know, uninspiring bad course. 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:13.359 Sure well, sometimes you have to say, okay, I'm critiquing 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:17.800 this golf course and I don't know what the constraints 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.840 are that the architect ran into, so you have to 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:25.639 give them some leeway there. But you know, when you 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:32.080 see repetitive aspects of a golf course that you either 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:36.000 do or don't like, you know, obviously that plays into 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:40.240 a theme. And as we were talking when we were 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:45.040 walking around the course today, you know, I tend to 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:53.080 like to strike a balance and develop variety. So if 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.960 you feel like you ran into a lot of different 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.480 experiences over the course of the eighteen holes, or again 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:04.200 would it whatever number of holes you're playing, then I 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:08.080 think that's a winner. You know, there's obviously other attributes, 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:14.439 and we can all critique principles, and we can critique 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:20.560 maximalism and minimalism and the varied ways of looking at 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:25.800 the profession architecture. But to me, if you can create 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:31.880 variety and either create a theme that feels like it fits, 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:36.080 or create a golf course that feels like it has 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.560 natural interest and perhaps a bit of flair, then you're 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:41.359 on the right path. 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.840 Today's episode is powered by TDM or Trade. Now for 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.359 a word from our sponsor. Today's episode is powered by 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:52.359 TDM ror Trade. Whether on the course or in the market, 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.119 it helps to have a second set of eyes to 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.720 keep you on your game. That's why tedm Error Trades 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.199 Trade Desk is here to help gut check your strategies 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.320 so you always feel confident teeing up a trade. Visit 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:05.280 tdmor trade dot com slash Frida Egg to learn more 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:08.879 about what their trade desk can do for you. Member 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:13.880 s I PC. Now back to Dave ZINCN. So you're 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.600 you're working on a book, tell us a little bit 0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:21.080 about about that that process and it's gonna be a process. 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:24.520 It's gotta be a self loving writing process. That's that's 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:29.000 somebody generally, the process of writing. Yeah, you know, you see, 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:34.440 uh you see these movies where there's a a writer 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:38.480 trying to get through the winner or on such situation 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:41.560 and uh, things go downhill. 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:46.600 Uh. It's a it's kind of a labor of love 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:52.159 to me, because I think that you know golfers, and 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:54.240 you know the people who are passionate want to read 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:56.880 about it, and and and I think that golf course 0:24:56.960 --> 0:25:00.280 architects need to take time to educate golfers and help 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:05.920 them understand why we're doing the apparently seemingly insane things 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:10.879 that we do, so that they better have a sense 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:15.920 of the rationale behind the principles that that press us 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:21.320 forward and that we get excited about. But the process 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:28.360 of writing, for me as an amateur is very challenging. 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:32.080 So I have high respect for what you do, having 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:36.359 to write so much content and keeping it well, you 0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:41.000 keep it interesting, and but you've got good subject matter 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.480 to work with, and you get around and and and 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:48.920 create inspiration for yourself through that process. So I think 0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:52.639 that's that's big. And and I've got inspiration for at 0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:57.199 least one book that I hope helps to display the 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:02.240 principles that I think press golf past convention. 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:08.200 So what's the kind of premise behind the book? Really 0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:14.000 it's a you know, educating golfers about architecture and the 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.160 principles behind it. What type of stuff are you are 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:19.040 you hoping to achieve from it? 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:25.360 Well, you know, convention was that the ongoing aspect of 0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:29.840 this conversation that I want to try and help some 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:32.840 people break with to the extent that I can. And 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:37.800 you know, aspects of why fasted firm golf and the 0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:46.560 running game and stopping worrying about immaculate conditioning, you know, 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:50.239 all those things that make golf more of what it 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:55.080 was when the Scottish you know, first started playing it. 0:26:55.840 --> 0:27:00.399 Moving in that direction is appealing to me. And trying 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:03.480 to explain the reasons why that's valuable. You know, as 0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:06.080 you've talked about in the past, and I've always thought about, 0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:11.679 there's so many counterintuitive aspects of golf, and it's I 0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:16.320 think it's valuable to think about why those are the way. 0:27:16.119 --> 0:27:18.919 They are, Like the concept of fair. 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:23.800 Like the concept of fair, I mean you look at 0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:28.960 fair and if fair is bunker left, bunker right, best 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:33.160 player hits the ball down the middle and has nothing 0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:36.680 to worry about all day, and worst player keeps hitting 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:39.080 the ball into a bunker on either side of the 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:43.879 fairway or either side of the green, and just is 0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:49.880 you know, they they're just gonna break down. And if 0:27:49.880 --> 0:27:52.240 that's what fair is, then why are we even playing 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:54.040 the game? You know, if we're out there trying to 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:56.320 play some form of nature, there's going to be a 0:27:56.320 --> 0:28:01.080 lot of asymmetry involved and angles and interest. And as 0:28:01.119 --> 0:28:04.800 a result of all that, then you you know, you 0:28:04.880 --> 0:28:08.120 find your own avenues. You know, doesn't matter what caliber 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:11.560 of player you are, you find options and avenues on 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:15.440 a really interesting golf course that that presses away from 0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:19.680 you know, the conventional view of bunker left, bunker right, 0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:23.000 fair way down the middle, something. 0:28:22.680 --> 0:28:26.160 That I've been asked by a few people I obviously 0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:29.480 believe in, and I think you're in the same boat. 0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:31.600 I don't want to put words in your mouth, but 0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:37.000 that golf of course, architecture should bring the higher handicap 0:28:37.040 --> 0:28:41.520 and lower handicap closer. But a lot you know, I'll 0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:43.760 get pushed back from people that say, why would why 0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:47.400 would that? Like, if you're reducing the you know, the 0:28:47.480 --> 0:28:51.400 skill advantage, why is that good? 0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:57.360 Well, I mean, in a practical world, you can't expect 0:28:57.440 --> 0:29:07.840 everybody to be a scratch golfer, and even the majority 0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:12.160 of people who play golf and play it passionately will 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:14.760 never be a scratch golfer. They're never going to be 0:29:14.840 --> 0:29:20.480 below a five handicap. And so having the ability to 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:24.719 go out there and enjoy a course and make your 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:29.880 way around in your own path, by your own choosing, 0:29:30.000 --> 0:29:34.880 creating your own adventure on a journey that the golf course, 0:29:34.960 --> 0:29:39.120 architect and nature have laid out, is you know, that's essential. 0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:45.520 Yeah, I think. I also think that a golf course 0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:49.080 that brings the handicaps together to a certain extent, what 0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:53.720 it does is it it allows an average player who's 0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:56.440 a great putter to shoot better scores, you know, than 0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:00.920 so in a sense, it makes all the skill more 0:30:00.960 --> 0:30:03.760 equal in value. You know, a very penal golf course 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:07.280 from tee to green is going to clearly favor the 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:09.080 person that hits the ball very well. 0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:12.240 Yeah, that gets back to that whole variety thing that 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:17.280 is so important to me. Creating that variety makes for 0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:21.680 a more interesting round for everybody. But it also, like 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:25.680 you're implying, it just goes ahead and offers the chance 0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:30.120 for a player who doesn't have a certain shot in 0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:34.040 his bag or does have a shot in their bag 0:30:34.320 --> 0:30:39.160 that is particular, to be able to take advantage of 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:43.640 that or nullify the advantage that somebody else has because 0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:45.280 they do or don't have that. 0:30:46.160 --> 0:30:48.520 Yeah, I mean, and that's why you want to want 0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:53.160 something that asks a variety and a great number of 0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:55.959 questions throughout the round. I think that's what the greatest 0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:58.720 golf courses do is they ask a lot of questions, 0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:01.400 and you know, they ask the good player to hit 0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:05.040 a lot of different shots. And if you don't feel 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:07.960 good about one aspect of your game, it's probably going 0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:10.560 to expose that aspect of the game for sure. 0:31:10.600 --> 0:31:15.720 It's not that you shouldn't actually sort of suffer the 0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:18.240 consequences of not having a shot. I mean, if you 0:31:18.240 --> 0:31:20.520 can't play a running shot and you get to Bandon 0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:24.520 and it's a windy day, you are going to suffer 0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:28.480 the consequences. And if all you can do is play 0:31:28.480 --> 0:31:32.480 a running shot and you play a parkland golf course 0:31:32.520 --> 0:31:36.760 that's overwatered, you're going to be miserable. You know. So 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:41.160 the more diversity that you can provide, it just seems 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:45.400 to me like it naturally allows for not a level 0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:51.600 playing field, but an opportunity for anybody to strive or succeed. 0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:56.520 What are your biggest highest profile projects is desert forests 0:31:57.520 --> 0:32:02.760 in the Scottsdale area, and that I think in many 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:08.160 cases people have struggled with designing in the desert. What 0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:13.680 are the unique challenges and how you overcame designing in 0:32:13.720 --> 0:32:16.200 the desert and making something that was interesting given the 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:18.360 constraints of the setting. 0:32:20.080 --> 0:32:24.680 Sure well, when we built when I was working for 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:28.680 Coren Crenshaw, when we built the Suarrow course at Wikopa 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:34.880 out there kind of northeast to Scottsdale, I was told 0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:38.520 that I needed to go see desert forest. And when 0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:42.400 I got there, I immediately understood why. Because Red Lawrence 0:32:42.520 --> 0:32:47.600 created some an amazing routing. It's a very simple routing 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:51.240 out and back out and back heading east from the clubhouse. 0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:52.040 But. 0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:59.320 He accomplished a tremendous amount with the fairways and how 0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:05.840 they just eight on the land and he built they 0:33:06.200 --> 0:33:11.240 worked with those natural contours and then they built perch 0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:18.240 greens and so being an early desert golf course. In fact, 0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:22.720 that's really the first desert style course in the world. 0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:26.640 Because there were parkland golf courses out in Arizona and 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:29.200 out in the desert elsewhere, but there was never something 0:33:29.200 --> 0:33:32.480 that was trying to integrate itself truly into the environment. 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:37.520 But being that, you know, the fairways are narrow, the 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:43.960 course was built on a fairly shoestring budget, and having 0:33:44.000 --> 0:33:51.880 the balance between those natural rippling fairways and then perched 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:57.080 greens brought me to a point where I felt like, Okay, 0:33:58.440 --> 0:34:03.200 when I was the commission to put together a master plan, 0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:09.360 the best thing I could do was to bring those 0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:16.000 bring those fairways as far along as they as I could, 0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:23.680 knowing that they were already such such they're just glorious, 0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:28.759 you know, lay of the lands sections aground, and as 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:32.560 a result, balance what was going on with the perch 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.960 greens out there. The perch greens that desert forest are 0:34:36.160 --> 0:34:44.360 so challenging. They are kind of that middle ground modern 0:34:44.600 --> 0:34:50.959 aerial target style golf. It's very demanding and does sort 0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:54.040 of take some people out of the game in terms 0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:56.640 of the challenge that they create, or at least at 0:34:56.680 --> 0:34:59.640 the very least, you know, just make it really difficult 0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:00.760 to get around the place. 0:35:00.880 --> 0:35:03.560 You know. It's interesting. I think that's kind of the 0:35:03.640 --> 0:35:08.000 evolution in a way of you know, Rainer built the 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:12.080 perch greens and banks. Obviously the perch greens very lay 0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:15.720 of the land fairways, they kind of moved the earth 0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:18.840 at the at the green site, especially on uninteresting land. 0:35:18.880 --> 0:35:20.840 And then you had Langford and Moreau who did the 0:35:21.160 --> 0:35:24.239 did similar stuff where they and it sounds like, you know, 0:35:24.320 --> 0:35:26.799 in a way it was you know, of course that 0:35:27.000 --> 0:35:32.320 evolved more so from Golden Age principle than the residing 0:35:32.680 --> 0:35:37.000 principles that of the given time, right, would you say. 0:35:37.120 --> 0:35:40.360 Yeah, Lawrence was really interested in shot making and he 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:42.840 had a good understanding of that with his background, and 0:35:43.360 --> 0:35:48.600 he really took advantage of that in what he did 0:35:48.600 --> 0:35:51.319 on the fairways. And when I got there and I 0:35:51.400 --> 0:35:55.400 was trying to figure out, okay, there was early on 0:35:55.480 --> 0:35:57.719 there was kind of a push by a lot of 0:35:57.719 --> 0:36:01.000 the better golfers who felt like Desert Forest, which has 0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:04.400 not had much work done on it over the years, 0:36:04.480 --> 0:36:08.200 like it was falling in terms of its prestige because 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:11.400 it wasn't challenging enough to the better player. And in 0:36:11.440 --> 0:36:15.600 some ways that was true. It did need to kind 0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:18.480 of ramp up the test for the best of golfers. 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:21.160 It was built in sixty two or open in sixty 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:24.960 two and really hadn't changed much since then, so there 0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:27.120 was definitely work to be had there. But when I 0:36:27.160 --> 0:36:29.399 looked at the golf course and I heard people saying, well, 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:32.839 we really want to see you make this as tough 0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:38.040 as you can while you're here, I thought to myself, No, no, 0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.359 we need to keep this golf course exactly what it 0:36:41.440 --> 0:36:43.799 is right now in terms of the level of difficulty. 0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:48.000 And as Brad Klein said to me after we finished 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:53.880 the work, and we achieved the holy grail of golf 0:36:53.880 --> 0:37:00.880 course architecture in terms of bringing handicaps together and the 0:37:02.640 --> 0:37:06.520 better than as I understand it, when the analysis was 0:37:06.840 --> 0:37:13.040 analysis was done of handicaps. There people that were under 0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:18.000 a five handicap, their handicaps went up by half a 0:37:18.040 --> 0:37:22.600 stroke or they were scoring half a stroke higher, and 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:28.920 people who were over five for a handicap, their strokes 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:33.000 went down by a full stroke on average. So you know, 0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:36.480 it was an effort to go at and make sure 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:42.160 that when we did address the perched screens, we did 0:37:42.200 --> 0:37:45.640 so in a way that would accommodate, you know, the 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:48.560 higher handicap er. And you know we did that in 0:37:48.920 --> 0:37:54.880 very limited fashion because we wanted to preserve the great 0:37:54.920 --> 0:37:57.799 attributes of the golf courses as already was. But that 0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:02.760 was a huge aspect of working on the green complexes. 0:38:03.760 --> 0:38:06.120 What type of stuff would did you do it? Desert 0:38:06.160 --> 0:38:12.239 forest that achieved that? If there's maybe one specific example. 0:38:12.040 --> 0:38:14.719 Yeah, well, contouring was the biggest thing, you know. I mean, 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:20.680 there were certainly places where the bunker layout changed to 0:38:20.800 --> 0:38:28.879 introduce more variety in how the holes fit together as 0:38:28.920 --> 0:38:33.799 a collection, but supportive contouring, I mean, if you want 0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:37.400 to look at one big thing, it was really the 0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:41.960 fact that the approaches gained more support. It looks in 0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:45.600 some ways if you've played out there in the past 0:38:45.640 --> 0:38:51.680 and then you go out there and play today, it 0:38:51.680 --> 0:38:56.360 looks at least as intimidating, if not more than it 0:38:56.400 --> 0:39:01.440 did before because of the esthetic and the rolls off 0:39:01.520 --> 0:39:03.719 of the greens, the rolls into the bunkers. But we 0:39:03.800 --> 0:39:08.600 actually widened approaches and supported the ground running up into 0:39:08.680 --> 0:39:14.520 the green in an effort to improve playability, improve drainage, 0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:18.120 and just make it a more fun place to get around. 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:21.680 And you know, when members got out there and saw 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:26.520 the rugged new bunkering style and the roll offs that 0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:29.920 fall into those bunkers. You know, it kind of appeared 0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:33.600 like maybe we were trying to make the place more 0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:36.120 difficult for them, But in truth those were a little 0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:40.319 bit wider and a little deceptive in what they were 0:39:40.360 --> 0:39:41.680 actually accomplishing. 0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:46.920 That I feel like deceptions of big aspect that sometimes 0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:51.000 golfers don't understand is a bunker that's, you know, twenty 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:53.440 yards behind the green or twenty yards short of the 0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:57.200 green is there. And to a certain extent, how much 0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:01.040 does deception play a role with the advent of the rangefinder? 0:40:04.160 --> 0:40:09.600 Yeah, that's good. Sort of takes a lot out, doesn't it. Yeah. 0:40:09.640 --> 0:40:12.359 You know, it's funny because guys like you and I, 0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:16.840 we play with a variety of people, including the the 0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:20.200 person who watches a rangefinder come out of your bag 0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:22.239 and says, put that thing away. You know, we're not 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:24.719 we're not playing with those today. And then you know, 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:27.520 so many people are just constantly pulling them out of 0:40:27.560 --> 0:40:29.960 their bag and they don't have to take an extra 0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:35.080 you know, thirty steps and find ahead or or you know, 0:40:35.239 --> 0:40:37.680 just sort of figure it out on their own and 0:40:37.840 --> 0:40:40.840 it might improve the speed of play. But I I 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:42.600 don't really have a great answer to that question. 0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:46.799 A golf course on the kind of opposite end of 0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:50.600 the era that you've had a claimed work on as 0:40:50.840 --> 0:40:54.880 Old Elm where you were working on a Harry Cult 0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:58.640 Donald Ross course in my neck of the woods in 0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:01.560 the Chicago area. Tell us a little bit about the 0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:06.600 work there, and you know in that project in general, 0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:10.040 I mean huge transformation for sure. 0:41:10.280 --> 0:41:17.680 Yeah, And you know that whole thing started when Curtis James, 0:41:17.719 --> 0:41:22.440 who you just recently had on and Drew Rogers and 0:41:22.520 --> 0:41:29.840 Kevin Marion. We're pressing forward on trying to take it, 0:41:30.680 --> 0:41:35.000 take full advantage of the heritage that that place has. 0:41:35.200 --> 0:41:39.560 So the heritage of buld Elm Club is a Harry 0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:45.040 Colt layout built by Donald Ross and at a time, 0:41:45.320 --> 0:41:49.600 you know, nineteen twelve, at a time when Donald Ross 0:41:49.719 --> 0:41:56.920 was there, you know, actually building those greens. So you know, 0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:59.840 when you look at the notes that Harry Colt left, 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:08.000 it's clear that Ross took some liberties. And you see 0:42:08.000 --> 0:42:10.600 that ROSSI and style green. You know a bit of 0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:14.840 that as people say, you know, Turtleback Green like number 0:42:14.840 --> 0:42:19.680 two out there, legendary, how difficult and demanding that green 0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:25.560 is and how slick those sides are. But you know, 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:37.280 our mission became to take full advantage of that hybridization 0:42:37.840 --> 0:42:43.840 between Donald Ross's greens and Harry Colt's layout, and Harry 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:48.640 Colt had left, you know, a lot of notes and 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:54.640 diagrams regarding the bunkering. Well over the years people had 0:42:54.920 --> 0:43:00.839 had the sense to leave the Ross greens into act, 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:08.520 and since Harry Colt's bunkers were maybe not built exactly 0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:13.319 the way that they were imagined on paper and in 0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:20.560 Colt's head, those had basically vanished and some renovations had 0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:25.600 eliminated eliminated those concepts. So we took his notes for 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:32.040 those torn, rugged, jagged bunkers and the placements of them 0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:38.719 and used those to get as much of that hybridization 0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:43.160 of the Ross Greens, the Colt layout and the Colt 0:43:43.200 --> 0:43:47.800 bunkering as we could and really bring that to the forefront. 0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:50.920 You know, one of the things that Colt is very 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:53.640 well known for is his bunker placement in terms of 0:43:54.040 --> 0:44:01.520 not trying to place a bunker where people conventionally expect it, 0:44:01.920 --> 0:44:04.839 but going ahead and putting it where the ground and 0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:08.520 interest dictates. And so you know, you get back to 0:44:08.600 --> 0:44:14.520 that diversity that I love and enjoy, and I know 0:44:14.560 --> 0:44:17.880 it's kind of getting off the topic, but you know, 0:44:18.160 --> 0:44:22.040 just thinking about that place and the ongoing work that 0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:26.799 I've had over there, you just can't help but love 0:44:26.840 --> 0:44:30.799 the opportunity, loving the opportunity to be involved with that 0:44:30.880 --> 0:44:37.560 hybridization of the two architects, and the chance to work 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:39.560 with those guys. You know, it's been a great club 0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:43.320 to work with. And Kevin's always been great. And Curtis 0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:46.120 is he's a go getter like nobody. 0:44:46.320 --> 0:44:51.120 He's he's a wild man. Yeah he is, you could tell. 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:54.520 He just he loves the loves the construction end of 0:44:54.560 --> 0:44:56.680 everything and transformation. 0:44:56.960 --> 0:45:00.200 Yeah, and that's what a lot of those guys the 0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:01.960 business loop for is that transformation. 0:45:02.400 --> 0:45:04.600 I mean, I played that place in high school, and 0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:08.759 I mean what it is now is unbelievably different than 0:45:09.120 --> 0:45:13.520 you know, the early two thousands. And the thing that's 0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:17.040 amazing is like how subtly great of a site it 0:45:17.120 --> 0:45:18.000 is for Chicago. 0:45:18.440 --> 0:45:20.600 Yeah, you look at it from the street and you're like, oh, well, 0:45:21.360 --> 0:45:23.960 you know, that place must its reputation must be on 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:28.719 its membership. But but it's as a golf course, it's 0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:31.719 a whole lot of fun. There's a lot going on 0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:34.200 out there. Once you actually get down hunkered into the 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:35.120 into the terrain. 0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.680 Yeah, and I mean where the way that Colt routed 0:45:38.719 --> 0:45:42.080 the course over that terrain to use the you know 0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:47.360 few the few really good features and knolls that Chicago 0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:51.719 just doesn't really have a lot of those, And and 0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:55.200 it has a few there, and you know where you're 0:45:55.480 --> 0:45:58.839 on one little ridge and there's five greens and four 0:45:58.880 --> 0:45:59.640 t boxes. 0:46:00.640 --> 0:46:03.920 Yeah, And you know, I think people assume that you 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:07.799 just need this dynamite piece of ground that has so 0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:12.120 much interest to it inherently, and the reality is that 0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:17.360 you've only got eighteen holes. So if you can really 0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:20.960 thoughtfully figure out how to lay out a course like 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:26.760 Colt did there, or like Lawrence did a desert forest, 0:46:28.040 --> 0:46:30.879 you can get that diversity that you need to keep 0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:34.200 every hole interesting and you don't need to beat everybody 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:36.440 over the head anyways. You know, if every hole is 0:46:36.480 --> 0:46:41.520 intended to be fireworks and postcards, then I don't know 0:46:41.560 --> 0:46:44.600 that you're striking that balance in that variety of interest 0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:48.080 that I like to see in a golf course. You know, 0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:53.000 I want the next hole to be different than the last. 0:46:53.480 --> 0:46:56.919 How much did your time in the UK help with 0:46:56.960 --> 0:46:58.600 that understanding Colt's work there? 0:46:59.560 --> 0:47:04.480 Yeah? You know, my impression of Cult came to be 0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:10.160 in some ways very similar to my impression of Corn Crenshaw, 0:47:11.040 --> 0:47:18.200 where it's very thoughtful and very principled and at times 0:47:18.239 --> 0:47:22.880 somewhat conservative. But as a result, I know of them have 0:47:22.960 --> 0:47:26.000 ever really gotten themselves into all that much trouble, you know, 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:30.839 and by trouble I mean just sort of overworking it 0:47:31.080 --> 0:47:36.759 and overthinking it and creating something that you just feel like, wow, 0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:45.360 that's that is really manipulated beyond something I expect to 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:48.200 see through the course of this round. You know, you 0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:50.800 do play some golf course, some modern golf courses, where 0:47:51.640 --> 0:47:53.480 you play a couple holes and you're just like, well, 0:47:53.480 --> 0:47:56.200 how does that fit into this round? And I don't 0:47:56.239 --> 0:47:59.000 think you find that on a Cult course or one 0:47:59.040 --> 0:47:59.880 of Bill and Ben's. 0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:03.239 We talked a little bit about it today on the 0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:06.759 golf course. But like, it's that restraint, and yeah, it's 0:48:07.120 --> 0:48:10.719 got to be. One of the hardest things is when 0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:13.560 you know you can do something, but you're not sure 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:15.799 if it's the right thing to do, and like doing 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:19.920 it's you know, it's a lot of times as golf, 0:48:20.760 --> 0:48:23.840 you know, it applies to golf in general. Doing less 0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:25.960 is sometimes more. 0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:28.840 Yeah, you know, there was that period of time. Actually, 0:48:29.280 --> 0:48:32.880 there were a number of American style golf courses everybody 0:48:32.920 --> 0:48:37.560 referred to them that had been built prior to my 0:48:37.680 --> 0:48:43.120 arrival in Britain, and they always struck me as very thematic. 0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:48.840 And by thematic, I mean you know there was conceptually 0:48:48.960 --> 0:48:55.160 there was a constant effort to create sort of similar 0:48:55.239 --> 0:48:59.920 contouring and similar effects, and and just the Earth War 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:04.960 got rep repetitive over the course of those golf courses, 0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:08.719 and you know, it happened over here a lot too, 0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:13.040 and I think as a result, you can get yourself 0:49:13.040 --> 0:49:15.719 into real trouble, Like if you look at the maintenance, 0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:19.239 just just the cost of maintenance on a course like that, 0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:25.319 that gets very thematic and is repetitive. You don't ever 0:49:25.400 --> 0:49:28.359 have a chance to let off the pedal. You have 0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:31.399 to you know, you've got eighteen of those to take 0:49:31.440 --> 0:49:35.680 care of. Whereas if you have variety, Yeah, you might 0:49:35.719 --> 0:49:41.760 have some some big massive bunkers or sweeps of sand 0:49:41.920 --> 0:49:48.520 or you know, difficult greens to maintain slopes and you know, 0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:51.720 all these features that can be instilled in a golf course. 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:56.640 But if you work with variety rather than kind of 0:49:57.080 --> 0:50:02.720 keeping pressing the same key on the piano. You avoid 0:50:02.840 --> 0:50:07.680 that those maintenance issues, and again, like I've said earlier, 0:50:07.760 --> 0:50:12.160 you just create the variety that you need to keep interest, 0:50:12.280 --> 0:50:15.359 and I think that's more compelling than something that gets 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:17.480 too thematic and is artificial. 0:50:18.280 --> 0:50:20.680 Yeah, to a certain extent, I see this a lot 0:50:21.000 --> 0:50:23.520 as I travel and I'm looking at golf courses to 0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:26.160 play in different towns and to see it's like a 0:50:26.200 --> 0:50:29.839 lot of the more expensive courses are the ones that 0:50:29.920 --> 0:50:33.200 were built during an era and they were probably really 0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:36.160 expensive to build, and now they're really expensive to maintain. 0:50:38.520 --> 0:50:42.239 Yeah. Yeah, And you know, I think there was a 0:50:42.280 --> 0:50:47.000 time when, and I heard this a lot back in 0:50:47.360 --> 0:50:50.040 you know, around my college days, where people said the 0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:58.200 budget is or was unlimited, and that might work for 0:50:58.239 --> 0:51:01.880 a few years, but you know, things are not always rosy, 0:51:01.920 --> 0:51:03.839 as we found out in two thousand and seven, two 0:51:03.880 --> 0:51:07.400 thousand and eight. You know, things can go downhill. And 0:51:08.000 --> 0:51:11.840 just because you built something that is dramatic for eighteen 0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:15.960 consecutive holes doesn't mean that you're going to maintain those 0:51:16.040 --> 0:51:19.960 the way they're built for the next twenty thirty years. 0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:23.520 Yeah. That's it. That's it. I mean, that's the balance too, 0:51:23.560 --> 0:51:26.239 and that's where restraint. I mean, like you said, you know, 0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:29.400 you have one hole that's got swathed of sand and 0:51:29.440 --> 0:51:32.520 you know and big, bold bunkering. But then maybe on 0:51:32.640 --> 0:51:35.160 another part of the prior to the land, there's a 0:51:35.200 --> 0:51:39.040 hole with you know, great contours that don't require really 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:42.279 hazards and no bunkering. And then that hole from a 0:51:42.280 --> 0:51:47.279 maintenance perspective, is completely you know, easier to take care of. 0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:49.799 But you know, you put together the whole thing. So 0:51:51.520 --> 0:51:54.120 what do you guys, what are you working on now? 0:51:55.520 --> 0:51:58.040 Well, it's funny that you asked that right at the 0:51:58.080 --> 0:52:05.040 moment because we're well, for instance, Luke Donald and I 0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:10.320 teamed up to do some work and we are really 0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:15.840 about to sign a contract with the folks at Canal Shores, 0:52:15.880 --> 0:52:19.200 who I've you know, been talking to over a number 0:52:19.239 --> 0:52:22.279 of years. Has has Luke, and that's kind of how 0:52:22.320 --> 0:52:26.719 our relationship began. And we really see it as a 0:52:26.800 --> 0:52:30.480 cool opportunity to promote the game and give back and 0:52:31.080 --> 0:52:31.520 you know. 0:52:32.160 --> 0:52:35.560 So be a community golf project. Yeah, do it for 0:52:35.600 --> 0:52:39.400 the kids. Yeah, ironically, that's what the golf course my 0:52:39.440 --> 0:52:43.880 grandfather grew up playing on. So nice. What types of stuff, 0:52:44.239 --> 0:52:47.799 you know, when you're designing for a community, and obviously 0:52:48.080 --> 0:52:51.160 there's a lot of unique characteristics to that course where 0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:55.000 you play up and down a canal, there's it's you know, 0:52:55.120 --> 0:52:58.480 pretty narrow corridors. What types of stuff are you are 0:52:58.520 --> 0:53:01.000 you going to kind of I have to achieve for 0:53:01.520 --> 0:53:03.120 a community project like that. 0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:07.800 Right, Yeah, Yeah, you're limited on width on that property 0:53:08.000 --> 0:53:12.239 because as anybody who knows who's been there, you know, 0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:18.920 it's two strips of land, like two airplane strips of 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:22.799 land on either side of a big cut canal that 0:53:22.880 --> 0:53:29.040 was artificially built. And so we're constantly going to be 0:53:29.120 --> 0:53:32.200 trying to take advantage of the width that we have 0:53:32.360 --> 0:53:38.239 available and also trying to you know, one of the 0:53:38.280 --> 0:53:41.160 big things that I think is fun about that is 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:46.160 you sort of touched on it earlier about where your 0:53:46.200 --> 0:53:51.520 friends want to play in Chicago on public courses and 0:53:52.080 --> 0:53:55.359 your reluctance to go to too many places. And I'm 0:53:55.400 --> 0:53:59.160 not saying I don't I'm not trying to be negative 0:53:59.200 --> 0:54:03.480 about public golf in Chicago, because I don't really know 0:54:03.840 --> 0:54:07.640 public golf in Chicago, but I will say that, you know, 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:14.480 there's a great diversity of awesome private clubs and the 0:54:14.520 --> 0:54:17.000 people that I know who are well versed in those 0:54:17.080 --> 0:54:21.040 say that, yeah, that's great, but there's kind of a 0:54:21.160 --> 0:54:24.719 lack of really great architecture on the public courses, so 0:54:25.560 --> 0:54:29.920 we really want to bring and draw some of the 0:54:30.160 --> 0:54:35.880 inspired architecture from the private courses there and bring that 0:54:36.040 --> 0:54:39.040 out onto canal shores. I think that would be so 0:54:39.200 --> 0:54:43.799 fun to allow kids to grow up playing holes that 0:54:44.800 --> 0:54:50.480 are sympathetic to that kind of Golden Age architecture and 0:54:50.880 --> 0:54:54.239 also introduce them to things that they will see hopefully 0:54:54.800 --> 0:54:57.520 down the road when they're playing in amateur events at 0:54:57.520 --> 0:54:58.320 private clubs. 0:54:59.440 --> 0:55:04.920 Yeah, that's the coolest aspect of you know you I 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:07.080 think about this all the time and it's like, why 0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:11.319 it's important for you know, state golf associations to get 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:14.680 their championships at the best courses for the kids. Is like, 0:55:15.200 --> 0:55:17.400 you know, it doesn't matter for me as Joe Midham, 0:55:17.480 --> 0:55:20.680 but like that kid, you know, as I was a 0:55:20.760 --> 0:55:23.480 kid that grew up playing Lake Bluff Golf Club, which 0:55:23.560 --> 0:55:26.560 was a nothing public course, and I'll never forget when 0:55:26.880 --> 0:55:29.319 I would go to tournaments at a private club as 0:55:29.320 --> 0:55:31.719 a junior, there was always like, oh, these greens are 0:55:31.760 --> 0:55:34.680 so fast and you can't be above this flag. And 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:37.400 I was lucky a caddie at some private clubs, so 0:55:37.400 --> 0:55:40.200 I got over that. But then there's the big first 0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:42.680 shock when you play in your first State Am and 0:55:42.719 --> 0:55:45.120 it's like, well, this is way different than you know, 0:55:45.200 --> 0:55:47.160 what I was playing in junior golf. And then you 0:55:47.239 --> 0:55:49.440 get and you play in a USGA event and it's 0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:52.800 a whole nother thing. But if you have good design 0:55:52.960 --> 0:55:56.240 that's you know, available at a municipal level, that bridge 0:55:56.239 --> 0:55:58.840 is the gap. There's one last big transition that the 0:55:58.920 --> 0:56:01.279 kid has to make if they want to play you know, 0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:05.600 golfing and also just from a regular per like even 0:56:05.640 --> 0:56:08.319 if they aren't a competitive golfer, when they get in 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:11.080 life and they get to a nice club, they aren't 0:56:11.120 --> 0:56:14.239 you know, completely blown out of the water by the 0:56:14.280 --> 0:56:15.120 golf course there. 0:56:16.160 --> 0:56:18.839 Yeah, And if you want that kid to continue to 0:56:18.880 --> 0:56:21.120 have interest in the game, you need to show them 0:56:21.360 --> 0:56:23.799 that variety that's out there, because that is one of 0:56:23.840 --> 0:56:28.520 the compelling aspects of our sport is all the opportunity 0:56:28.600 --> 0:56:34.240 to you know, tomorrow, when I go to the next 0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:38.280 venue and play, it is going to be completely different 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:40.960 than the one I played today, you know, And it 0:56:40.960 --> 0:56:44.040 doesn't matter sometimes if it's you know a place that 0:56:44.120 --> 0:56:47.879 you stuff a few dollars into a box and go 0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:52.120 out there and play, and or if it's you know, 0:56:52.200 --> 0:56:56.800 some of the fancies clubs. You know that diversity is appealing. 0:56:57.320 --> 0:57:00.680 Yeah, that's that's right. And it's always goes back to 0:57:00.719 --> 0:57:02.759 what I say. It's like, if you wanted, if you 0:57:02.760 --> 0:57:05.480 wanted to get somebody interested in tacos, you wouldn't take 0:57:05.480 --> 0:57:08.120 them to the worst taco shop. Like, you got to 0:57:08.160 --> 0:57:10.600 take them to taco shop. That's good. It's like, so 0:57:10.640 --> 0:57:12.960 that's where the public off is the most. That's where 0:57:12.960 --> 0:57:14.200 it should be the most interesting. 0:57:15.040 --> 0:57:17.600 Yeah, yeah, you want to see that diversity. It's funny, 0:57:17.680 --> 0:57:20.880 you know because when you told me that you wanted 0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:25.520 to get together and play and you would like to 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:28.640 do the podcast, I thought to myself, you know, I'd 0:57:28.720 --> 0:57:31.280 kind of like to turn this interview around on Andy 0:57:31.640 --> 0:57:37.360 and ask you what was it that has gotten you 0:57:37.520 --> 0:57:40.280 to a point where you sort of appreciate a lot 0:57:40.320 --> 0:57:42.680 of the things that I do. You know, fast and 0:57:42.720 --> 0:57:47.800 firm and and trying to avoid the sense of fair 0:57:47.920 --> 0:57:51.440 in architecture, and you appreciate a lot of the counterintuitive 0:57:51.480 --> 0:57:58.560 aspects and strategic variety that I'm into. You know, I 0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:02.080 know obviously with the opportunity to go over to Britain 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:04.440 on the Dream Award that it had a huge influence 0:58:04.480 --> 0:58:07.560 on me. How did you end up getting to this 0:58:07.800 --> 0:58:10.240 point and in this philosophy that you have. 0:58:11.160 --> 0:58:14.280 I think, I think the I mean, you read stuff. 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:16.840 I read stuff. I've always was interested in it. I 0:58:16.920 --> 0:58:19.800 got the opportunity to play. I grew up in like Bluff, 0:58:19.800 --> 0:58:21.640 so I got to play short acres as a kid. 0:58:21.920 --> 0:58:25.520 You always knew there was something different, something that was 0:58:25.680 --> 0:58:31.560 special about that place. And I think the the when 0:58:31.600 --> 0:58:35.600 I when I got into doing this, like, what I 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:40.120 started to really thirst for was different experiences. It's the variety. 0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:45.480 And then you start to see more stuff and you 0:58:45.560 --> 0:58:48.520 start to you know, you think about the stuff that's 0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:52.920 really thrilling, like and it becomes I became much less 0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:56.720 of a you know, score dependent person, much less of 0:58:56.760 --> 0:59:00.760 a competitive golfer, and much more of just someone that 0:59:00.920 --> 0:59:06.800 was enjoying being outside walking and looking at you know, 0:59:07.080 --> 0:59:11.160 unique aspects of the game, uh and unique aspects of 0:59:11.200 --> 0:59:13.840 a given golf course. And then you started to think 0:59:13.880 --> 0:59:18.680 about what are the features and the characteristics that give 0:59:18.720 --> 0:59:23.640 you the most thrill and they kind of not knowing 0:59:23.800 --> 0:59:28.400 where you want to hit it is like a great thing. 0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:31.520 Like I actually love one of my favorite things is 0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:33.800 when I get when I'm playing a golf course for 0:59:33.880 --> 0:59:36.080 the first time and you know, I don't use a 0:59:36.200 --> 0:59:39.640 yardage book really we got them today, but I opened 0:59:39.680 --> 0:59:43.520 one one time. But like when I'm playing a golf 0:59:43.600 --> 0:59:46.400 course and I think this is where I should hit it, 0:59:46.800 --> 0:59:49.600 and then I get up there and I realized, well, 0:59:49.760 --> 0:59:51.320 I shouldn't have hit it here. I should have hit 0:59:51.360 --> 0:59:54.280 it complete opposite the other side of the fairway. Like that, 0:59:54.280 --> 0:59:58.520 that's the stuff that I really enjoy. So it's the counterintuitiveness, 0:59:58.600 --> 1:00:02.000 the you know, the blind that act like blind shots. 1:00:02.040 --> 1:00:05.959 I love. I love that idea of not knowing where 1:00:05.960 --> 1:00:08.480 your ball is going to be and where it ended up. 1:00:08.520 --> 1:00:11.640 You think you hit a good shot, but that that walk, like, 1:00:11.760 --> 1:00:14.800 especially if you're going over hill, like you're walking over hill, 1:00:15.360 --> 1:00:18.000 Like what makes that walk over hill really nice is 1:00:18.240 --> 1:00:19.919 when you don't know where it is because like you're 1:00:19.960 --> 1:00:21.439 not thinking about walking up the hill. 1:00:22.200 --> 1:00:24.000 Yeah, yeah, I. 1:00:24.040 --> 1:00:26.480 Don't really know where I whether I answer your question, 1:00:26.600 --> 1:00:29.720 but yeah, then it's become like I've become much less 1:00:29.760 --> 1:00:32.440 about just grabbing the lab wedg around the greens is 1:00:32.600 --> 1:00:35.040 much more about like pulling the seven iron out and 1:00:35.120 --> 1:00:37.760 just seeing where to where to how to hit it. 1:00:37.840 --> 1:00:40.680 And it's not as much about trying to hit it 1:00:40.720 --> 1:00:43.680 close as it's more fun to seeing the ball use 1:00:43.720 --> 1:00:47.960 the contour or run in there. I so for people 1:00:47.960 --> 1:00:51.040 that are pencil and scorecard people, that might sound crazy, 1:00:51.120 --> 1:00:54.480 but you know, I enjoy golf more now than ever 1:00:54.520 --> 1:00:57.360 before because I'm I don't care what I shoot. I 1:00:57.400 --> 1:00:59.920 may have a great time regardless of whether I can 1:01:00.160 --> 1:01:02.760 hit the ball, you know, can't keep the ball on 1:01:02.800 --> 1:01:05.440 the planet, or whether I'm playing the best round you 1:01:05.480 --> 1:01:06.600 know in weeks. 1:01:07.120 --> 1:01:10.680 Yeah, yeah, Ben and I have had conversations about some 1:01:10.760 --> 1:01:12.920 of the things that you're talking about, and that mystery, 1:01:13.280 --> 1:01:16.160 as Ben would refer to it, is is a big deal. 1:01:16.840 --> 1:01:19.320 And that's you see that on a lot of great 1:01:19.600 --> 1:01:23.600 Golden Age golf courses, and when things got very conventional 1:01:23.640 --> 1:01:27.320 there for a few decades, you know, that mystery kind 1:01:27.320 --> 1:01:31.400 of went away. So it's always, yeah, compelling to go 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:31.919 out there. 1:01:31.960 --> 1:01:34.880 And he said, that's the thing is the game is 1:01:34.960 --> 1:01:38.840 so great because it's challenging. If it was easy, it 1:01:38.880 --> 1:01:41.560 would be way less of a game. Like it wouldn't. 1:01:41.920 --> 1:01:44.640 But one of the things that golf has that everywhere else, 1:01:44.760 --> 1:01:48.080 every other sport has doesn't have, is like golf has 1:01:48.120 --> 1:01:52.040 people that are just absolute nuts. Like my wife isn't 1:01:52.040 --> 1:01:55.439 a golfer. She thinks we're all just crazy. We're all 1:01:55.480 --> 1:01:59.200 batshit crazy. And you know the only reason why is 1:01:59.240 --> 1:02:03.840 because the game is so hard. Like whether you shoot, 1:02:04.240 --> 1:02:07.760 whether you're a plus four handicap and shoots sixty seven 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:14.160 or a fifteen handicap that shoots eighty two, those people 1:02:14.320 --> 1:02:18.120 get off the golf course after great rounds and they're 1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:21.800 thinking about, man, if I would have just made that putt, 1:02:21.880 --> 1:02:25.400 or I wouldn't hit that stupid web shot, I would 1:02:25.440 --> 1:02:28.720 have I could have shot this, Like what other sport 1:02:28.840 --> 1:02:32.120 Like if you win by twenty five. In basketball, everybody's like, yeah, 1:02:32.160 --> 1:02:38.280 that was great, nobody belaboring, you know, as miss three pointer. 1:02:38.600 --> 1:02:42.080 But in golf, like it's this. It's so achievable yet 1:02:42.120 --> 1:02:45.680 so unachievable in the same sense for sure. 1:02:45.760 --> 1:02:48.040 And you know, you can go out and play the 1:02:48.040 --> 1:02:52.760 same course tomorrow that you played today, and the worst 1:02:52.760 --> 1:02:56.240 hole that you had today may end up being the 1:02:56.240 --> 1:02:58.880 best hole that you played tomorrow, because tomorrow is a 1:02:58.920 --> 1:03:04.400 completely another day, and that's an enjoyable aspect to the adventure. 1:03:04.720 --> 1:03:07.919 Yeah, it's like the interest of the best part about 1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:10.720 it is being is that thin line. And I think 1:03:10.760 --> 1:03:13.840 this is there's a thin line and design. Everything with 1:03:13.920 --> 1:03:16.280 golf is a thin line, but like the thin line 1:03:16.320 --> 1:03:24.480 of teetering on perfection and brilliance and success and just disaster. 1:03:25.080 --> 1:03:29.200 And the greatest golf courses force you to to flirt 1:03:29.200 --> 1:03:32.080 with the line a lot of times in order to 1:03:32.120 --> 1:03:34.720 reap the success. But you can play away from it, 1:03:34.760 --> 1:03:37.680 but you're never gonna you can't play away from it 1:03:37.720 --> 1:03:40.760 all day. I think you know, Bill on the podcast 1:03:40.800 --> 1:03:43.520 he had when he was talking about the second hole 1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:46.680 at Talking Stick was great. He's like, you know, you 1:03:46.720 --> 1:03:49.160 can play left and you can play away from the 1:03:49.560 --> 1:03:52.880 trouble all day long, you know, until you know you 1:03:52.880 --> 1:03:54.280 can get it all the way up by the green, 1:03:54.320 --> 1:03:56.400 But eventually you're gonna have to hit that shot around 1:03:56.440 --> 1:03:59.280 the green and you got the trouble still, Like, eventually 1:03:59.360 --> 1:04:01.000 you're gonna have to face the trouble. 1:04:01.600 --> 1:04:04.000 Yeah, And that's why golf on a flat hole can 1:04:04.120 --> 1:04:05.240 be very compelling. 1:04:06.000 --> 1:04:08.320 I think about that hole all the time. It's so funny. 1:04:08.320 --> 1:04:12.920 I played that, of course, way before I was into this, 1:04:13.040 --> 1:04:16.360 and I always remember that whole like I was like, oh, 1:04:16.400 --> 1:04:21.280 that's a great golfle. Yeah, so I got we we 1:04:21.400 --> 1:04:23.400 got a tight window. We gotta do this. You're gonna 1:04:23.400 --> 1:04:26.400 be in Chicago more so we'll have to do this again. 1:04:26.520 --> 1:04:30.000 We'll have part two at another time. So, Dave, thanks 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:33.200 for coming on. People can find you. You're not real 1:04:33.280 --> 1:04:35.360 active on uh on social media. 1:04:35.800 --> 1:04:37.760 No, they can find me there though if they want to, 1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:41.120 if they want to rib me or they want to chat, 1:04:41.200 --> 1:04:44.840 they can find me there. But I tend to, you know, 1:04:45.120 --> 1:04:50.120 kind of concentrate on being a father and and work 1:04:50.160 --> 1:05:08.960 and you know, all the other things going on in life.