1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,040
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

2
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,320
Speaker 1: In today's episode, we are joined by golf course architect

3
00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,600
Speaker 1: Dave Zincn. Dave is an up and coming architect who's

4
00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,520
Speaker 1: worked for the likes of Coren Crenshaw, Gil Hans and

5
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,400
Speaker 1: Arthur Hills while completing solo work of his own at

6
00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,599
Speaker 1: Desert Forest. Before we get into it with Dave, we

7
00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,360
Speaker 1: have a new limited edition New York City logo in

8
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,160
Speaker 1: the pro shop for the upcoming PGA Championship at Bethpage.

9
00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 1: We have a small run of hats from Imperial available

10
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 1: now and in the coming days we will have a

11
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 1: few selected items from b Draddy, so be on the

12
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,519
Speaker 1: lookout for those. If you want a hat now, check

13
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,360
Speaker 1: out the pro shop at www dot Thefridagg dot com

14
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,440
Speaker 1: to get yours today. Now, without further ado, here's Dave Zincn.

15
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,839
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when

16
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,960
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

17
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,000
Speaker 1: And when I find my.

18
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,560
Speaker 2: Ball in a Frida Egg, Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Fridagg,

19
00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 2: Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to.

20
00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:31,839
Speaker 1: Run off of them. What do you think of Todd

21
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:32,800
Speaker 1: hell Farm.

22
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 2: I had fun. You know, the biggest thing I came

23
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,959
Speaker 2: away with again with Mike Strand's course is how he

24
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,840
Speaker 2: makes it look more challenging than it really is. You know,

25
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,039
Speaker 2: the holes seemed playable for sure. Obviously we're in a

26
00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,440
Speaker 2: wet stretch, so it's difficult, but I had a lot

27
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:50,800
Speaker 2: of fun.

28
00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,600
Speaker 1: Do you think architecture would be any different had he

29
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 1: not passed early? Yeah, obviously there's a rising star in

30
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:04,520
Speaker 1: the two thousand and complete opposite end of the spectrum

31
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:05,960
Speaker 1: of what today's trying to are.

32
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,440
Speaker 2: Really well, like we talked about up there on the course,

33
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,320
Speaker 2: you know, there was some width that you might not

34
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,840
Speaker 2: have seen from other architects at the time that he

35
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,760
Speaker 2: was doing that, and that gave it some variety, some

36
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,840
Speaker 2: options as for what he would have continued to do. Obviously,

37
00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,360
Speaker 2: you know that with was fundamental to the kind of

38
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,760
Speaker 2: architecture he was producing, so you expect that to continue.

39
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,639
Speaker 2: As far as the contribution, you know, I don't know

40
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,000
Speaker 2: where it would have gone.

41
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:45,639
Speaker 1: He's definitely on the maximalism scale of the spectrum versus

42
00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,119
Speaker 1: what you'd see from you know, Bill Krer, Ben Crenshaw, Tom.

43
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 2: Doak for sure. Yeah, there's a lot of earth moved

44
00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 2: out there, especially in you know, right down the center

45
00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,920
Speaker 2: of the fairways, which you might you know, not necessarily expect,

46
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:07,280
Speaker 2: although this ground is so severe that, yeah, a lot

47
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,080
Speaker 2: of there's a lot of places out there where you

48
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,320
Speaker 2: have to accomplish that to make it playable.

49
00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 1: So you went to school at Cornell?

50
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,639
Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I loved it up there.

51
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 1: It was fun see the latest of the lineage of

52
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,799
Speaker 1: Cornell grad architects.

53
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:26,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess.

54
00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 1: So.

55
00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,919
Speaker 2: It's funny because you know, when when I initially wanted

56
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,280
Speaker 2: to go to Cornell, it was really a combination of

57
00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,280
Speaker 2: the fact that I could either choose to be at

58
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 2: one of the best architecture programs or landscape architecture programs

59
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,880
Speaker 2: in the country, and then decide later once I had

60
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,080
Speaker 2: gotten into the architecture program, whether I wanted to commit

61
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,560
Speaker 2: to golf specifically or some other very form of design.

62
00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 2: But I always knew I wanted to do design, so

63
00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:59,600
Speaker 2: that's what led me there.

64
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,400
Speaker 1: What made you want to do golf?

65
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 2: For sure? Oh, I think it just calm. It combines

66
00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 2: my interests, certainly the golf side, but also design and

67
00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 2: the natural aesthetic. So it's just a perfect blend of

68
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 2: those three things.

69
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,320
Speaker 1: So as you do the Drear Award, there I did,

70
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:28,480
Speaker 1: So you spent The Drear Award is a essentially study

71
00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 1: abroad program that Tom doak gil Hans of john Osso

72
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,359
Speaker 1: where you spend a year and where'd you go to Scotland?

73
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to Britain and Ireland, traveled all over

74
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 2: basically was able to see, you know, just about everything

75
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,360
Speaker 2: that was good over there. I spent. I went over

76
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:59,600
Speaker 2: late in nineteen ninety seven and stayed through almost the

77
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,680
Speaker 2: end of ninety eight and was able to start out

78
00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,680
Speaker 2: in the south while the weather was pretty poor and

79
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 2: visit a lot of heathland golf courses and that was

80
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,359
Speaker 2: a real eye opener to get to see those. You know,

81
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 2: I knew that there was some amazing stuff along the coast,

82
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,120
Speaker 2: but just to see what they accomplished on those heathland

83
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:29,760
Speaker 2: courses when architecture was really burgeoning was an eye opener.

84
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,720
Speaker 1: So like that would be like Saint Endicott area right

85
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:36,160
Speaker 1: down there.

86
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,239
Speaker 2: Well, I mean the prime section is southwest of London,

87
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,720
Speaker 2: so Surrey, and you know, I mean that in some

88
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,720
Speaker 2: ways it all started with Woking and went out from there.

89
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 2: So that place is amazing.

90
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, John Lowe, the bunker that changed golf, really.

91
00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,800
Speaker 2: It really did. And it's funny, you know, it continues

92
00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:05,160
Speaker 2: that counterintuitive conversation that we've talked about in the past,

93
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 2: where you know, maybe striking it down the middle is

94
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 2: not always the best option the best choice, and I

95
00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 2: continue to believe that, you know, the most, the most

96
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 2: diversity that you can give a golfer through the course

97
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 2: of eighteen holes or however many holes you have to

98
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 2: play with, the better off you are.

99
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,800
Speaker 1: Had you been to the UK before.

100
00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:37,760
Speaker 2: That, no, no, So when I got to Cornell, I

101
00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 2: really knew that there, you know, as I said, there

102
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:48,799
Speaker 2: were a great architecture landscape architecture program and Rtij Senior

103
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,440
Speaker 2: had been you know, at Cornell, and that played into

104
00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 2: the whole conversation that Tom Doak has continued to talk

105
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,719
Speaker 2: about as his career progressed, about how Cornell provides you

106
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 2: an opportunity to study anything, you know, it's part of

107
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 2: the motto. And once I switched to the landscape architecture

108
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,120
Speaker 2: program and began really committing myself to golf course design

109
00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,360
Speaker 2: as my focus, then you know, naturally, seeing what Tom

110
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 2: and gil Hans had done just meant it was the

111
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,280
Speaker 2: thing that I needed to try and accomplish, and so

112
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,400
Speaker 2: I made it a goal. I waited until my senior

113
00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:39,600
Speaker 2: year and applied and was fortunate enough to receive it.

114
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,560
Speaker 2: I was a little concerned about some burnout by the professors,

115
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:47,280
Speaker 2: but fortunately they were very open minded, and I went

116
00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,200
Speaker 2: out of my way to research every aspect that I

117
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 2: could leading into it, because I knew that I needed

118
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 2: to put together a good proposal to to sort of

119
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 2: be in the hunt with all the other varied interests

120
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 2: that people in the horticulture and landscape architecture departments have.

121
00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,720
Speaker 1: So you did all this research beforehand. What were a

122
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,040
Speaker 1: few things that kind of jumped out to you that

123
00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:19,640
Speaker 1: you didn't expect that you researched about the trip.

124
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:23,880
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when you sit down and look at

125
00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:29,640
Speaker 2: a map of Britain, obviously that's a pretty jagged coast line,

126
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,640
Speaker 2: and you start realizing that if you're going to visit

127
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,680
Speaker 2: great golf courses, that you are going to spend a

128
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:42,560
Speaker 2: lot of time traversing around to those remote places. So

129
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,959
Speaker 2: that was interesting, and obviously then once I got over there,

130
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,720
Speaker 2: I realized the value of the heathland courses and they

131
00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:55,880
Speaker 2: were so readily accessible right there around you know, I

132
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,720
Speaker 2: was stationed in Woking. I found a place to stay

133
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 2: and woke, and that made it easy to get around

134
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 2: to so many of the courses right there. But then,

135
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 2: as far as leading into the trip, the big thing

136
00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,240
Speaker 2: for me was to read about what Tom and Gil

137
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,720
Speaker 2: had written on their monthly letters that you send back

138
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 2: as part of the you know, the arrangement with the committee,

139
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,400
Speaker 2: and to find out what they were learning.

140
00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:28,880
Speaker 1: You know.

141
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 2: Gil made comments about how anything goes, you know, and

142
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,080
Speaker 2: there's a quote out there that's kind of brought up

143
00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 2: every occasionally on the Internet about him saying that, and

144
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:48,200
Speaker 2: you know, Tom would talk about diversity of PARR, you know,

145
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,679
Speaker 2: and the fact that nobody gave a darn whether par

146
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,160
Speaker 2: was seventy two, you know, and some of these fundamental

147
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 2: things that I don't look at as important conventions. As

148
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,320
Speaker 2: a result of sending so much time there, you know,

149
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 2: it really allowed me and anybody else who spent time

150
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,120
Speaker 2: over there to break away from convention and understand that,

151
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 2: you know, those things are only important to a certain extent.

152
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, convention is something that gets in the

153
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,240
Speaker 1: way of every you know, not every, but so many

154
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,480
Speaker 1: of American golf projects. It's like a and I think

155
00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,040
Speaker 1: that's part of the part of the issue is that

156
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:35,040
Speaker 1: we're kind of raised on convention. You know, the every

157
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 1: other sport is very conventional. There's very few that have

158
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 1: like a changing playing surface or playing field. You know,

159
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 1: football has always played one hundred yards, basketball course the

160
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:50,000
Speaker 1: same same length, oops ten feet, you know, nothing. The

161
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,080
Speaker 1: only thing that changes course really is baseball has just

162
00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 1: different parks. But for the most part, golf's the only

163
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,360
Speaker 1: one that has really different stuff from course to course.

164
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:08,240
Speaker 2: For sure. The freedom, diversity, and adventure that you get

165
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,880
Speaker 2: from a golf course is completely different than any other

166
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,839
Speaker 2: sport that I guess either of us can can come

167
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 2: up with. So that's why in some ways I feel

168
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,040
Speaker 2: like the court or the the game is as strong

169
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,720
Speaker 2: as it is right now, despite the fact that it's

170
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,160
Speaker 2: had so many setbacks, and I feel like some of

171
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,600
Speaker 2: those setbacks were brought on by conventions that we adhered

172
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:43,000
Speaker 2: to in the past. So moving forward, continuing with that

173
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 2: adventurous spirit, I think is a real essential part of

174
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,160
Speaker 2: how the game can succeed.

175
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 1: Yes, so you're on the Polish side of defense, where

176
00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:02,240
Speaker 1: you golf detractors will say it's it's condensing, it's struggling.

177
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 1: Then you have some golf fanatics that are you know,

178
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,880
Speaker 1: say it's thriving. You know, if you think about the

179
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,760
Speaker 1: PGA Tour, they're always saying the game's thriving, it's never

180
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,840
Speaker 1: been more popular. You fall on the positive end of

181
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:17,920
Speaker 1: the spectrum.

182
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:24,440
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that I don't necessarily have a

183
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,720
Speaker 2: take on where things are going relative to the tour

184
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 2: in that perspective. But and you know, with the conventional

185
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:39,200
Speaker 2: golf widespread, you know, everybody's a golfer who plays, you know,

186
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,440
Speaker 2: I don't know how few times a year. If they're

187
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,400
Speaker 2: trying to add up those numbers, those numbers are probably

188
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,680
Speaker 2: going down. But the passion and interest of guys like

189
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 2: yourself and you know, just a whole lot of people

190
00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,679
Speaker 2: that I didn't realize, you know, kind of naturally gravitated

191
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 2: to the game that you and I really appreciate, is

192
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 2: as strong as I think it's ever been.

193
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd agree with that. I think that we're the

194
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:20,200
Speaker 1: number of really, you know, the number of golfers might decrease,

195
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,760
Speaker 1: but I think what we're seeing now is a more

196
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,600
Speaker 1: passionate base of golfers that have more interests and more

197
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,680
Speaker 1: aspects of the game, which is a good thing, you know,

198
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 1: like to have it because those are the types of

199
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,880
Speaker 1: people that are going to lead to growth, is having

200
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 1: people that really love the game, because then their friends

201
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,320
Speaker 1: are going to be like, why why is this guy

202
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 1: like this so much? Or why is this girl like

203
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,080
Speaker 1: this so much? You know, I need to try it

204
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,600
Speaker 1: out if they like it so much? Like why is

205
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,560
Speaker 1: Andy getting up at the krack of dawn every weekend

206
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,079
Speaker 1: to go play golf? You know. I know a lot

207
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 1: of my friends have gotten into it because of like that,

208
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,080
Speaker 1: you know, and then they get into it and they're like,

209
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, I was missing out for so long.

210
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,079
Speaker 2: So you feel like you draw friends into the game.

211
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 1: Well I think I think, Yeah, they're more likely to

212
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 1: give it a try if one of their friends is

213
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 1: super into it, right for sure?

214
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,560
Speaker 2: For sure you have to have yeah, yeah, any any

215
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,640
Speaker 2: of these interests or hobbies, you've got to have somebody

216
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,119
Speaker 2: kind of shows you the ropes.

217
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,040
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's hard to have somebody. And it's funny

218
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 1: because like my friends, what I think is interesting is

219
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,320
Speaker 1: they you know, None of them are really golfers, and

220
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 1: now the way they play golf is the way I

221
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,680
Speaker 1: play golf. They walk like they get mad when they

222
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,480
Speaker 1: can't walk, which is fascinating to me because if you

223
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,920
Speaker 1: looked at like the cross section of like you know,

224
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 1: the type of golfer they are. They are traditionally writers.

225
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,960
Speaker 1: But because I walk, they walk, I think.

226
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,280
Speaker 2: Well, they're pushed into that and then they realize, Wow,

227
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,360
Speaker 2: I get to have a nice walk, exercise, be outdoors,

228
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 2: include all these things in a little golfing adventure. Yeah.

229
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 1: It's funny because like they'll ask me to play and

230
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 1: I'll ask where, and they're like I'll be like, no,

231
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,880
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go play there. But if they

232
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,000
Speaker 1: know if they asked me to play and they're playing

233
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,080
Speaker 1: somewhere like Ravslow in Chicago, which is a dal ross

234
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,560
Speaker 1: where like I love going to play there, I'll be like, oh, yeah,

235
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to play, and they're like, the only place

236
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,960
Speaker 1: we can get Andy to play it is if we

237
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,640
Speaker 1: were going to play Ravislow, which is funny, and then

238
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 1: we walk and I mean that's one of the best

239
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 1: walking courses in the country. So you after Cornell, did

240
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,240
Speaker 1: you start working for Corn Crenshaw right then.

241
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 2: No, when I got back, you know, I had a

242
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,720
Speaker 2: kind of a diversity of experiences before I went to

243
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 2: work for Corn Crenshaw. I spent some time at Arthur

244
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,680
Speaker 2: Hill's office, you know, while I was in school kind

245
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,840
Speaker 2: of as an intern. I spent time working for Gil

246
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 2: Hants And wow, I mean he's just gone on an

247
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,120
Speaker 2: amazing trajectory since I spent time working for him, And

248
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 2: it was really enjoy able to spend, you know, be

249
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,440
Speaker 2: working under a guy who had that perspective that I

250
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:08,240
Speaker 2: gained in Britain.

251
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,840
Speaker 1: So what years was that? Was that early in his

252
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:15,960
Speaker 1: solo career.

253
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 2: Right that was basically right around the turn of the century,

254
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,360
Speaker 2: just before that and right around there.

255
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,800
Speaker 1: So those are you were working with him on some

256
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 1: of his early projects in Philly and and.

257
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 2: Well, I spent time at tall Grass And actually I

258
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 2: met my wife on Gil's job down in Alabama Capstone Club,

259
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:46,160
Speaker 2: which no longer exists, although I think it's untouched, it's

260
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 2: just maybe not open. And it's funny. Gil received kind

261
00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 2: of a recommendation from Bill when Bill and Ben declined

262
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,880
Speaker 2: to take that Capstone Club job. So Bill always likes

263
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,720
Speaker 2: to tease me that He's the reason I met my wife.

264
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:10,080
Speaker 1: It's pretty cool.

265
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Bill's good at finding ways to turn something into

266
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 2: a way to rib Yeah.

267
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,400
Speaker 1: What was that? What was the contrast like between Arthur

268
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,000
Speaker 1: Hill's office and Gill's office.

269
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,919
Speaker 2: Or lack thereof of an office? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

270
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 2: mean that that's a traditional way of looking at the business.

271
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 2: I guess from from that era where you're designing in

272
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:46,400
Speaker 2: the office and you know, more or less contracting someone

273
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 2: to build it out in the field, and obviously they're

274
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,120
Speaker 2: making site visits. But to me, it became readily apparent

275
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,879
Speaker 2: that if you wanted to do the best work, and

276
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 2: I didn't see much reason to get into the golf business,

277
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,320
Speaker 2: if I wasn't going to be trying to do the

278
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 2: best work, that you had to have a presence in

279
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:11,280
Speaker 2: the field. Plus, if you're somebody who loves golf, loves nature,

280
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:16,480
Speaker 2: loves design, how could you not want to spend more

281
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 2: time on a golfing adventure out there in the dirt.

282
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,000
Speaker 2: Of course, you know that means your golfing adventure on

283
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 2: the turf is going to decline rapidly, but I'm willing

284
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:28,160
Speaker 2: to accept that.

285
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So you know, the more time on site. Obviously,

286
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 1: you know the contractor there's there can be competing interests.

287
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:43,240
Speaker 1: But with it with building golf courses, how much of

288
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,400
Speaker 1: a thrill is it to really? Like? Are you more

289
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,679
Speaker 1: on like do you really enjoy creating something or is

290
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 1: it more fun to see something and let the natural

291
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,879
Speaker 1: kind of landscape tape gets to the course.

292
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're kind of hitting back on that question that

293
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 2: Jason Way asked a while back in an article, And

294
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 2: in some ways I worked to evade the answer to

295
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,680
Speaker 2: that because they're both so enjoyable. I mean, to go

296
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,000
Speaker 2: out there and have an interesting piece of land that's

297
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 2: inspiring is just that inspiring. But to be able to

298
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,639
Speaker 2: take a theoretical approach to a piece of property that

299
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:37,680
Speaker 2: doesn't have as much interest and maybe needs that beat

300
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,640
Speaker 2: into it is also, you know, kind of a great

301
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 2: thrill so to me, and I would really like to

302
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,919
Speaker 2: continue on with the diversity of projects throughout my career

303
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 2: and not really gravitate towards one thing. Obviously you have

304
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,439
Speaker 2: to she ate great land, but you don't have to

305
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,399
Speaker 2: have great land to end up with great golf.

306
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. I think I always am when I

307
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: look at an architect's work sometimes I'm more interested in

308
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: their flat sites and what they're able to achieve with

309
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,679
Speaker 1: the less interesting land. I mean, do you do you

310
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 1: think that's in some cases, you know, more telling of

311
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: the architect is what they do with the less interesting

312
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 1: sites or pieces of land within a routing.

313
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 2: Well, you kind of gain in a perspective on what

314
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 2: their principles are and what they value. You know, the

315
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 2: angles are still there on a flat piece of ground.

316
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 2: You know, there might not be as much up and down,

317
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,719
Speaker 2: but a lot of what makes the game interesting is

318
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 2: just that the angles along the lay of the land.

319
00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 2: When I was over in Britain, actually in our Irreland,

320
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 2: I visited Portmarnock and this guy walks up to me

321
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 2: and he says, what are you doing? And I explained, well,

322
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: I'm out here studying the golf course. And after a

323
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: pleasant conversation, he turned to me again and said, well,

324
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 2: I could sum up your what you're doing in one word,

325
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, you know, okay, over the

326
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 2: course of this year, I've had some interesting conversations with golfers,

327
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,959
Speaker 2: kind of impromptu situations. It'll be something else to hear

328
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 2: what this guy has to say and his one word

329
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 2: was angles, and I could not argue with him. So

330
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: you know, on a flat piece of ground, you still

331
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 2: have that theoretical opportunity to create really enticing strategies.

332
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: For the layman. What would you when they're trying to

333
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,239
Speaker 1: evaluate golf courses that they play, how would you? What

334
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: would you say is your basic piece of advice for

335
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 1: looking at a golf course and determining whether you know

336
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: it's a good course or and obviously it's not this

337
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: black and white or a you know, uninspiring bad course.

338
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 2: Sure well, sometimes you have to say, okay, I'm critiquing

339
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 2: this golf course and I don't know what the constraints

340
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: are that the architect ran into, so you have to

341
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 2: give them some leeway there. But you know, when you

342
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: see repetitive aspects of a golf course that you either

343
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 2: do or don't like, you know, obviously that plays into

344
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: a theme. And as we were talking when we were

345
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: walking around the course today, you know, I tend to

346
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: like to strike a balance and develop variety. So if

347
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: you feel like you ran into a lot of different

348
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: experiences over the course of the eighteen holes, or again

349
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 2: would it whatever number of holes you're playing, then I

350
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: think that's a winner. You know, there's obviously other attributes,

351
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 2: and we can all critique principles, and we can critique

352
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 2: maximalism and minimalism and the varied ways of looking at

353
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 2: the profession architecture. But to me, if you can create

354
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 2: variety and either create a theme that feels like it fits,

355
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: or create a golf course that feels like it has

356
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 2: natural interest and perhaps a bit of flair, then you're

357
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 2: on the right path.

358
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: Today's episode is powered by TDM or Trade. Now for

359
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor. Today's episode is powered by

360
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: TDM ror Trade. Whether on the course or in the market,

361
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 1: it helps to have a second set of eyes to

362
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: keep you on your game. That's why tedm Error Trades

363
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 1: Trade Desk is here to help gut check your strategies

364
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: so you always feel confident teeing up a trade. Visit

365
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: tdmor trade dot com slash Frida Egg to learn more

366
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: about what their trade desk can do for you. Member

367
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: s I PC. Now back to Dave ZINCN. So you're

368
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: you're working on a book, tell us a little bit

369
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: about about that that process and it's gonna be a process.

370
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: It's gotta be a self loving writing process. That's that's

371
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: somebody generally, the process of writing. Yeah, you know, you see,

372
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: uh you see these movies where there's a a writer

373
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: trying to get through the winner or on such situation

374
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: and uh, things go downhill.

375
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: Uh. It's a it's kind of a labor of love

376
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: to me, because I think that you know golfers, and

377
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: you know the people who are passionate want to read

378
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 2: about it, and and and I think that golf course

379
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: architects need to take time to educate golfers and help

380
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 2: them understand why we're doing the apparently seemingly insane things

381
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: that we do, so that they better have a sense

382
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: of the rationale behind the principles that that press us

383
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: forward and that we get excited about. But the process

384
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 2: of writing, for me as an amateur is very challenging.

385
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: So I have high respect for what you do, having

386
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: to write so much content and keeping it well, you

387
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: keep it interesting, and but you've got good subject matter

388
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 2: to work with, and you get around and and and

389
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 2: create inspiration for yourself through that process. So I think

390
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: that's that's big. And and I've got inspiration for at

391
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 2: least one book that I hope helps to display the

392
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: principles that I think press golf past convention.

393
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: So what's the kind of premise behind the book? Really

394
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: it's a you know, educating golfers about architecture and the

395
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: principles behind it. What type of stuff are you are

396
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: you hoping to achieve from it?

397
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 2: Well, you know, convention was that the ongoing aspect of

398
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: this conversation that I want to try and help some

399
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: people break with to the extent that I can. And

400
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: you know, aspects of why fasted firm golf and the

401
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: running game and stopping worrying about immaculate conditioning, you know,

402
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,239
Speaker 2: all those things that make golf more of what it

403
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: was when the Scottish you know, first started playing it.

404
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 2: Moving in that direction is appealing to me. And trying

405
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: to explain the reasons why that's valuable. You know, as

406
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: you've talked about in the past, and I've always thought about,

407
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 2: there's so many counterintuitive aspects of golf, and it's I

408
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: think it's valuable to think about why those are the way.

409
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: They are, Like the concept of fair.

410
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: Like the concept of fair, I mean you look at

411
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: fair and if fair is bunker left, bunker right, best

412
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 2: player hits the ball down the middle and has nothing

413
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 2: to worry about all day, and worst player keeps hitting

414
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: the ball into a bunker on either side of the

415
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 2: fairway or either side of the green, and just is

416
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 2: you know, they they're just gonna break down. And if

417
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: that's what fair is, then why are we even playing

418
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: the game? You know, if we're out there trying to

419
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: play some form of nature, there's going to be a

420
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: lot of asymmetry involved and angles and interest. And as

421
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: a result of all that, then you you know, you

422
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 2: find your own avenues. You know, doesn't matter what caliber

423
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: of player you are, you find options and avenues on

424
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 2: a really interesting golf course that that presses away from

425
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: you know, the conventional view of bunker left, bunker right,

426
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: fair way down the middle, something.

427
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: That I've been asked by a few people I obviously

428
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: believe in, and I think you're in the same boat.

429
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but

430
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: that golf of course, architecture should bring the higher handicap

431
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: and lower handicap closer. But a lot you know, I'll

432
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: get pushed back from people that say, why would why

433
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: would that? Like, if you're reducing the you know, the

434
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: skill advantage, why is that good?

435
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, in a practical world, you can't expect

436
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: everybody to be a scratch golfer, and even the majority

437
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: of people who play golf and play it passionately will

438
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: never be a scratch golfer. They're never going to be

439
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: below a five handicap. And so having the ability to

440
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 2: go out there and enjoy a course and make your

441
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: way around in your own path, by your own choosing,

442
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: creating your own adventure on a journey that the golf course,

443
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: architect and nature have laid out, is you know, that's essential.

444
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. I also think that a golf course

445
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: that brings the handicaps together to a certain extent, what

446
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: it does is it it allows an average player who's

447
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: a great putter to shoot better scores, you know, than

448
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: so in a sense, it makes all the skill more

449
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: equal in value. You know, a very penal golf course

450
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: from tee to green is going to clearly favor the

451
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: person that hits the ball very well.

452
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that gets back to that whole variety thing that

453
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: is so important to me. Creating that variety makes for

454
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: a more interesting round for everybody. But it also, like

455
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: you're implying, it just goes ahead and offers the chance

456
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: for a player who doesn't have a certain shot in

457
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: his bag or does have a shot in their bag

458
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: that is particular, to be able to take advantage of

459
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: that or nullify the advantage that somebody else has because

460
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: they do or don't have that.

461
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that's why you want to want

462
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: something that asks a variety and a great number of

463
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 1: questions throughout the round. I think that's what the greatest

464
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: golf courses do is they ask a lot of questions,

465
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: and you know, they ask the good player to hit

466
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: a lot of different shots. And if you don't feel

467
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: good about one aspect of your game, it's probably going

468
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: to expose that aspect of the game for sure.

469
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 2: It's not that you shouldn't actually sort of suffer the

470
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: consequences of not having a shot. I mean, if you

471
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: can't play a running shot and you get to Bandon

472
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: and it's a windy day, you are going to suffer

473
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: the consequences. And if all you can do is play

474
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: a running shot and you play a parkland golf course

475
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: that's overwatered, you're going to be miserable. You know. So

476
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: the more diversity that you can provide, it just seems

477
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: to me like it naturally allows for not a level

478
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: playing field, but an opportunity for anybody to strive or succeed.

479
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: What are your biggest highest profile projects is desert forests

480
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: in the Scottsdale area, and that I think in many

481
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: cases people have struggled with designing in the desert. What

482
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: are the unique challenges and how you overcame designing in

483
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: the desert and making something that was interesting given the

484
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: constraints of the setting.

485
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: Sure well, when we built when I was working for

486
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: Coren Crenshaw, when we built the Suarrow course at Wikopa

487
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: out there kind of northeast to Scottsdale, I was told

488
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: that I needed to go see desert forest. And when

489
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: I got there, I immediately understood why. Because Red Lawrence

490
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: created some an amazing routing. It's a very simple routing

491
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: out and back out and back heading east from the clubhouse.

492
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: But.

493
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: He accomplished a tremendous amount with the fairways and how

494
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: they just eight on the land and he built they

495
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: worked with those natural contours and then they built perch

496
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: greens and so being an early desert golf course. In fact,

497
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: that's really the first desert style course in the world.

498
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: Because there were parkland golf courses out in Arizona and

499
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: out in the desert elsewhere, but there was never something

500
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 2: that was trying to integrate itself truly into the environment.

501
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: But being that, you know, the fairways are narrow, the

502
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: course was built on a fairly shoestring budget, and having

503
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: the balance between those natural rippling fairways and then perched

504
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: greens brought me to a point where I felt like, Okay,

505
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: when I was the commission to put together a master plan,

506
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: the best thing I could do was to bring those

507
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: bring those fairways as far along as they as I could,

508
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: knowing that they were already such such they're just glorious,

509
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 2: you know, lay of the lands sections aground, and as

510
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: a result, balance what was going on with the perch

511
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: greens out there. The perch greens that desert forest are

512
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 2: so challenging. They are kind of that middle ground modern

513
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:50,959
Speaker 2: aerial target style golf. It's very demanding and does sort

514
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: of take some people out of the game in terms

515
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: of the challenge that they create, or at least at

516
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: the very least, you know, just make it really difficult

517
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 2: to get around the place.

518
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting. I think that's kind of the

519
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: evolution in a way of you know, Rainer built the

520
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: perch greens and banks. Obviously the perch greens very lay

521
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 1: of the land fairways, they kind of moved the earth

522
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: at the at the green site, especially on uninteresting land.

523
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: And then you had Langford and Moreau who did the

524
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: did similar stuff where they and it sounds like, you know,

525
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: in a way it was you know, of course that

526
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: evolved more so from Golden Age principle than the residing

527
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: principles that of the given time, right, would you say.

528
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lawrence was really interested in shot making and he

529
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 2: had a good understanding of that with his background, and

530
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: he really took advantage of that in what he did

531
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 2: on the fairways. And when I got there and I

532
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 2: was trying to figure out, okay, there was early on

533
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: there was kind of a push by a lot of

534
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: the better golfers who felt like Desert Forest, which has

535
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: not had much work done on it over the years,

536
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: like it was falling in terms of its prestige because

537
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: it wasn't challenging enough to the better player. And in

538
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: some ways that was true. It did need to kind

539
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: of ramp up the test for the best of golfers.

540
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: It was built in sixty two or open in sixty

541
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: two and really hadn't changed much since then, so there

542
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: was definitely work to be had there. But when I

543
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 2: looked at the golf course and I heard people saying, well,

544
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 2: we really want to see you make this as tough

545
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: as you can while you're here, I thought to myself, No, no,

546
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 2: we need to keep this golf course exactly what it

547
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: is right now in terms of the level of difficulty.

548
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 2: And as Brad Klein said to me after we finished

549
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: the work, and we achieved the holy grail of golf

550
00:36:53,880 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 2: course architecture in terms of bringing handicaps together and the

551
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: better than as I understand it, when the analysis was

552
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 2: analysis was done of handicaps. There people that were under

553
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: a five handicap, their handicaps went up by half a

554
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: stroke or they were scoring half a stroke higher, and

555
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: people who were over five for a handicap, their strokes

556
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: went down by a full stroke on average. So you know,

557
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: it was an effort to go at and make sure

558
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: that when we did address the perched screens, we did

559
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: so in a way that would accommodate, you know, the

560
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: higher handicap er. And you know we did that in

561
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: very limited fashion because we wanted to preserve the great

562
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: attributes of the golf courses as already was. But that

563
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 2: was a huge aspect of working on the green complexes.

564
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: What type of stuff would did you do it? Desert

565
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: forest that achieved that? If there's maybe one specific example.

566
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, contouring was the biggest thing, you know. I mean,

567
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 2: there were certainly places where the bunker layout changed to

568
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 2: introduce more variety in how the holes fit together as

569
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: a collection, but supportive contouring, I mean, if you want

570
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: to look at one big thing, it was really the

571
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: fact that the approaches gained more support. It looks in

572
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: some ways if you've played out there in the past

573
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: and then you go out there and play today, it

574
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: looks at least as intimidating, if not more than it

575
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: did before because of the esthetic and the rolls off

576
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 2: of the greens, the rolls into the bunkers. But we

577
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: actually widened approaches and supported the ground running up into

578
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: the green in an effort to improve playability, improve drainage,

579
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: and just make it a more fun place to get around.

580
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: And you know, when members got out there and saw

581
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 2: the rugged new bunkering style and the roll offs that

582
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: fall into those bunkers. You know, it kind of appeared

583
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: like maybe we were trying to make the place more

584
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: difficult for them, But in truth those were a little

585
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 2: bit wider and a little deceptive in what they were

586
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: actually accomplishing.

587
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: That I feel like deceptions of big aspect that sometimes

588
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: golfers don't understand is a bunker that's, you know, twenty

589
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: yards behind the green or twenty yards short of the

590
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: green is there. And to a certain extent, how much

591
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: does deception play a role with the advent of the rangefinder?

592
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. Sort of takes a lot out, doesn't it. Yeah.

593
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because guys like you and I,

594
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: we play with a variety of people, including the the

595
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: person who watches a rangefinder come out of your bag

596
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: and says, put that thing away. You know, we're not

597
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 2: we're not playing with those today. And then you know,

598
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: so many people are just constantly pulling them out of

599
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: their bag and they don't have to take an extra

600
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: you know, thirty steps and find ahead or or you know,

601
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: just sort of figure it out on their own and

602
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 2: it might improve the speed of play. But I I

603
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: don't really have a great answer to that question.

604
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: A golf course on the kind of opposite end of

605
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: the era that you've had a claimed work on as

606
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: Old Elm where you were working on a Harry Cult

607
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: Donald Ross course in my neck of the woods in

608
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: the Chicago area. Tell us a little bit about the

609
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: work there, and you know in that project in general,

610
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: I mean huge transformation for sure.

611
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know that whole thing started when Curtis James,

612
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: who you just recently had on and Drew Rogers and

613
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 2: Kevin Marion. We're pressing forward on trying to take it,

614
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: take full advantage of the heritage that that place has.

615
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: So the heritage of buld Elm Club is a Harry

616
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: Colt layout built by Donald Ross and at a time,

617
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: you know, nineteen twelve, at a time when Donald Ross

618
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: was there, you know, actually building those greens. So you know,

619
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: when you look at the notes that Harry Colt left,

620
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: it's clear that Ross took some liberties. And you see

621
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: that ROSSI and style green. You know a bit of

622
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: that as people say, you know, Turtleback Green like number

623
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: two out there, legendary, how difficult and demanding that green

624
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: is and how slick those sides are. But you know,

625
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 2: our mission became to take full advantage of that hybridization

626
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 2: between Donald Ross's greens and Harry Colt's layout, and Harry

627
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: Colt had left, you know, a lot of notes and

628
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: diagrams regarding the bunkering. Well over the years people had

629
00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 2: had the sense to leave the Ross greens into act,

630
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: and since Harry Colt's bunkers were maybe not built exactly

631
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 2: the way that they were imagined on paper and in

632
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: Colt's head, those had basically vanished and some renovations had

633
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: eliminated eliminated those concepts. So we took his notes for

634
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 2: those torn, rugged, jagged bunkers and the placements of them

635
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 2: and used those to get as much of that hybridization

636
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: of the Ross Greens, the Colt layout and the Colt

637
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 2: bunkering as we could and really bring that to the forefront.

638
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that Colt is very

639
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: well known for is his bunker placement in terms of

640
00:43:54,040 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: not trying to place a bunker where people conventionally expect it,

641
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 2: but going ahead and putting it where the ground and

642
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: interest dictates. And so you know, you get back to

643
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: that diversity that I love and enjoy, and I know

644
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 2: it's kind of getting off the topic, but you know,

645
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: just thinking about that place and the ongoing work that

646
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: I've had over there, you just can't help but love

647
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 2: the opportunity, loving the opportunity to be involved with that

648
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: hybridization of the two architects, and the chance to work

649
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: with those guys. You know, it's been a great club

650
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 2: to work with. And Kevin's always been great. And Curtis

651
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 2: is he's a go getter like nobody.

652
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: He's he's a wild man. Yeah he is, you could tell.

653
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: He just he loves the loves the construction end of

654
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: everything and transformation.

655
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what a lot of those guys the

656
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: business loop for is that transformation.

657
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I played that place in high school, and

658
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: I mean what it is now is unbelievably different than

659
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: you know, the early two thousands. And the thing that's

660
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: amazing is like how subtly great of a site it

661
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: is for Chicago.

662
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you look at it from the street and you're like, oh, well,

663
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 2: you know, that place must its reputation must be on

664
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: its membership. But but it's as a golf course, it's

665
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 2: a whole lot of fun. There's a lot going on

666
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: out there. Once you actually get down hunkered into the

667
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: into the terrain.

668
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean where the way that Colt routed

669
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: the course over that terrain to use the you know

670
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: few the few really good features and knolls that Chicago

671
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: just doesn't really have a lot of those, And and

672
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: it has a few there, and you know where you're

673
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 1: on one little ridge and there's five greens and four

674
00:45:58,880 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: t boxes.

675
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I think people assume that you

676
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 2: just need this dynamite piece of ground that has so

677
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: much interest to it inherently, and the reality is that

678
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 2: you've only got eighteen holes. So if you can really

679
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: thoughtfully figure out how to lay out a course like

680
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 2: Colt did there, or like Lawrence did a desert forest,

681
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,879
Speaker 2: you can get that diversity that you need to keep

682
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: every hole interesting and you don't need to beat everybody

683
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: over the head anyways. You know, if every hole is

684
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 2: intended to be fireworks and postcards, then I don't know

685
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: that you're striking that balance in that variety of interest

686
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: that I like to see in a golf course. You know,

687
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: I want the next hole to be different than the last.

688
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,919
Speaker 1: How much did your time in the UK help with

689
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: that understanding Colt's work there?

690
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, my impression of Cult came to be

691
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: in some ways very similar to my impression of Corn Crenshaw,

692
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 2: where it's very thoughtful and very principled and at times

693
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 2: somewhat conservative. But as a result, I know of them have

694
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: ever really gotten themselves into all that much trouble, you know,

695
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 2: and by trouble I mean just sort of overworking it

696
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: and overthinking it and creating something that you just feel like, wow,

697
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: that's that is really manipulated beyond something I expect to

698
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: see through the course of this round. You know, you

699
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: do play some golf course, some modern golf courses, where

700
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: you play a couple holes and you're just like, well,

701
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: how does that fit into this round? And I don't

702
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: think you find that on a Cult course or one

703
00:47:59,040 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: of Bill and Ben's.

704
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about it today on the

705
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: golf course. But like, it's that restraint, and yeah, it's

706
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: got to be. One of the hardest things is when

707
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: you know you can do something, but you're not sure

708
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: if it's the right thing to do, and like doing

709
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a lot of times as golf,

710
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: you know, it applies to golf in general. Doing less

711
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: is sometimes more.

712
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there was that period of time. Actually,

713
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: there were a number of American style golf courses everybody

714
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: referred to them that had been built prior to my

715
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: arrival in Britain, and they always struck me as very thematic.

716
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 2: And by thematic, I mean you know there was conceptually

717
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: there was a constant effort to create sort of similar

718
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: contouring and similar effects, and and just the Earth War

719
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: got rep repetitive over the course of those golf courses,

720
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 2: and you know, it happened over here a lot too,

721
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: and I think as a result, you can get yourself

722
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: into real trouble, Like if you look at the maintenance,

723
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 2: just just the cost of maintenance on a course like that,

724
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 2: that gets very thematic and is repetitive. You don't ever

725
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: have a chance to let off the pedal. You have

726
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 2: to you know, you've got eighteen of those to take

727
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: care of. Whereas if you have variety, Yeah, you might

728
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 2: have some some big massive bunkers or sweeps of sand

729
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: or you know, difficult greens to maintain slopes and you know,

730
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 2: all these features that can be instilled in a golf course.

731
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: But if you work with variety rather than kind of

732
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 2: keeping pressing the same key on the piano. You avoid

733
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 2: that those maintenance issues, and again, like I've said earlier,

734
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: you just create the variety that you need to keep interest,

735
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: and I think that's more compelling than something that gets

736
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 2: too thematic and is artificial.

737
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, to a certain extent, I see this a lot

738
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: as I travel and I'm looking at golf courses to

739
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: play in different towns and to see it's like a

740
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 1: lot of the more expensive courses are the ones that

741
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: were built during an era and they were probably really

742
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: expensive to build, and now they're really expensive to maintain.

743
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, I think there was a

744
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 2: time when, and I heard this a lot back in

745
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 2: you know, around my college days, where people said the

746
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: budget is or was unlimited, and that might work for

747
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 2: a few years, but you know, things are not always rosy,

748
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 2: as we found out in two thousand and seven, two

749
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 2: thousand and eight. You know, things can go downhill. And

750
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 2: just because you built something that is dramatic for eighteen

751
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 2: consecutive holes doesn't mean that you're going to maintain those

752
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 2: the way they're built for the next twenty thirty years.

753
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's it. That's it. I mean, that's the balance too,

754
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: and that's where restraint. I mean, like you said, you know,

755
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: you have one hole that's got swathed of sand and

756
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: you know and big, bold bunkering. But then maybe on

757
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: another part of the prior to the land, there's a

758
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: hole with you know, great contours that don't require really

759
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: hazards and no bunkering. And then that hole from a

760
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: maintenance perspective, is completely you know, easier to take care of.

761
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: But you know, you put together the whole thing. So

762
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: what do you guys, what are you working on now?

763
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny that you asked that right at the

764
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 2: moment because we're well, for instance, Luke Donald and I

765
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 2: teamed up to do some work and we are really

766
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 2: about to sign a contract with the folks at Canal Shores,

767
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 2: who I've you know, been talking to over a number

768
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 2: of years. Has has Luke, and that's kind of how

769
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: our relationship began. And we really see it as a

770
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: cool opportunity to promote the game and give back and

771
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 2: you know.

772
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 1: So be a community golf project. Yeah, do it for

773
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: the kids. Yeah, ironically, that's what the golf course my

774
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: grandfather grew up playing on. So nice. What types of stuff,

775
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 1: you know, when you're designing for a community, and obviously

776
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of unique characteristics to that course where

777
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: you play up and down a canal, there's it's you know,

778
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: pretty narrow corridors. What types of stuff are you are

779
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 1: you going to kind of I have to achieve for

780
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: a community project like that.

781
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, you're limited on width on that property

782
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 2: because as anybody who knows who's been there, you know,

783
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: it's two strips of land, like two airplane strips of

784
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 2: land on either side of a big cut canal that

785
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 2: was artificially built. And so we're constantly going to be

786
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: trying to take advantage of the width that we have

787
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: available and also trying to you know, one of the

788
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 2: big things that I think is fun about that is

789
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 2: you sort of touched on it earlier about where your

790
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 2: friends want to play in Chicago on public courses and

791
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 2: your reluctance to go to too many places. And I'm

792
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 2: not saying I don't I'm not trying to be negative

793
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: about public golf in Chicago, because I don't really know

794
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 2: public golf in Chicago, but I will say that, you know,

795
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 2: there's a great diversity of awesome private clubs and the

796
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: people that I know who are well versed in those

797
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: say that, yeah, that's great, but there's kind of a

798
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 2: lack of really great architecture on the public courses, so

799
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 2: we really want to bring and draw some of the

800
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: inspired architecture from the private courses there and bring that

801
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 2: out onto canal shores. I think that would be so

802
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 2: fun to allow kids to grow up playing holes that

803
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 2: are sympathetic to that kind of Golden Age architecture and

804
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 2: also introduce them to things that they will see hopefully

805
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 2: down the road when they're playing in amateur events at

806
00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 2: private clubs.

807
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the coolest aspect of you know you I

808
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: think about this all the time and it's like, why

809
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: it's important for you know, state golf associations to get

810
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 1: their championships at the best courses for the kids. Is like,

811
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter for me as Joe Midham,

812
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 1: but like that kid, you know, as I was a

813
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: kid that grew up playing Lake Bluff Golf Club, which

814
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: was a nothing public course, and I'll never forget when

815
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: I would go to tournaments at a private club as

816
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: a junior, there was always like, oh, these greens are

817
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: so fast and you can't be above this flag. And

818
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: I was lucky a caddie at some private clubs, so

819
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: I got over that. But then there's the big first

820
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: shock when you play in your first State Am and

821
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: it's like, well, this is way different than you know,

822
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: what I was playing in junior golf. And then you

823
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: get and you play in a USGA event and it's

824
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 1: a whole nother thing. But if you have good design

825
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 1: that's you know, available at a municipal level, that bridge

826
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: is the gap. There's one last big transition that the

827
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: kid has to make if they want to play you know,

828
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 1: golfing and also just from a regular per like even

829
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: if they aren't a competitive golfer, when they get in

830
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 1: life and they get to a nice club, they aren't

831
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: you know, completely blown out of the water by the

832
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: golf course there.

833
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you want that kid to continue to

834
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 2: have interest in the game, you need to show them

835
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 2: that variety that's out there, because that is one of

836
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 2: the compelling aspects of our sport is all the opportunity

837
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 2: to you know, tomorrow, when I go to the next

838
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 2: venue and play, it is going to be completely different

839
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 2: than the one I played today, you know, And it

840
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 2: doesn't matter sometimes if it's you know a place that

841
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 2: you stuff a few dollars into a box and go

842
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 2: out there and play, and or if it's you know,

843
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 2: some of the fancies clubs. You know that diversity is appealing.

844
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's right. And it's always goes back to

845
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: what I say. It's like, if you wanted, if you

846
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: wanted to get somebody interested in tacos, you wouldn't take

847
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 1: them to the worst taco shop. Like, you got to

848
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: take them to taco shop. That's good. It's like, so

849
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: that's where the public off is the most. That's where

850
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: it should be the most interesting.

851
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you want to see that diversity. It's funny,

852
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 2: you know because when you told me that you wanted

853
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 2: to get together and play and you would like to

854
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: do the podcast, I thought to myself, you know, I'd

855
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 2: kind of like to turn this interview around on Andy

856
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 2: and ask you what was it that has gotten you

857
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 2: to a point where you sort of appreciate a lot

858
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 2: of the things that I do. You know, fast and

859
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 2: firm and and trying to avoid the sense of fair

860
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 2: in architecture, and you appreciate a lot of the counterintuitive

861
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 2: aspects and strategic variety that I'm into. You know, I

862
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 2: know obviously with the opportunity to go over to Britain

863
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 2: on the Dream Award that it had a huge influence

864
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: on me. How did you end up getting to this

865
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 2: point and in this philosophy that you have.

866
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: I think, I think the I mean, you read stuff.

867
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: I read stuff. I've always was interested in it. I

868
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: got the opportunity to play. I grew up in like Bluff,

869
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: so I got to play short acres as a kid.

870
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: You always knew there was something different, something that was

871
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: special about that place. And I think the the when

872
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: I when I got into doing this, like, what I

873
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: started to really thirst for was different experiences. It's the variety.

874
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: And then you start to see more stuff and you

875
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: start to you know, you think about the stuff that's

876
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: really thrilling, like and it becomes I became much less

877
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: of a you know, score dependent person, much less of

878
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 1: a competitive golfer, and much more of just someone that

879
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: was enjoying being outside walking and looking at you know,

880
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: unique aspects of the game, uh and unique aspects of

881
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: a given golf course. And then you started to think

882
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: about what are the features and the characteristics that give

883
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: you the most thrill and they kind of not knowing

884
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: where you want to hit it is like a great thing.

885
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: Like I actually love one of my favorite things is

886
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: when I get when I'm playing a golf course for

887
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: the first time and you know, I don't use a

888
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: yardage book really we got them today, but I opened

889
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: one one time. But like when I'm playing a golf

890
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: course and I think this is where I should hit it,

891
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: and then I get up there and I realized, well,

892
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have hit it here. I should have hit

893
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: it complete opposite the other side of the fairway. Like that,

894
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: that's the stuff that I really enjoy. So it's the counterintuitiveness,

895
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: the you know, the blind that act like blind shots.

896
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,959
Speaker 1: I love. I love that idea of not knowing where

897
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: your ball is going to be and where it ended up.

898
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: You think you hit a good shot, but that that walk, like,

899
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 1: especially if you're going over hill, like you're walking over hill,

900
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: Like what makes that walk over hill really nice is

901
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:19,919
Speaker 1: when you don't know where it is because like you're

902
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,439
Speaker 1: not thinking about walking up the hill.

903
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I.

904
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 1: Don't really know where I whether I answer your question,

905
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: but yeah, then it's become like I've become much less

906
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: about just grabbing the lab wedg around the greens is

907
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: much more about like pulling the seven iron out and

908
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: just seeing where to where to how to hit it.

909
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: And it's not as much about trying to hit it

910
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: close as it's more fun to seeing the ball use

911
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: the contour or run in there. I so for people

912
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: that are pencil and scorecard people, that might sound crazy,

913
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: but you know, I enjoy golf more now than ever

914
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: before because I'm I don't care what I shoot. I

915
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 1: may have a great time regardless of whether I can

916
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: hit the ball, you know, can't keep the ball on

917
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: the planet, or whether I'm playing the best round you

918
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 1: know in weeks.

919
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Ben and I have had conversations about some

920
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 2: of the things that you're talking about, and that mystery,

921
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 2: as Ben would refer to it, is is a big deal.

922
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 2: And that's you see that on a lot of great

923
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 2: Golden Age golf courses, and when things got very conventional

924
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 2: there for a few decades, you know, that mystery kind

925
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 2: of went away. So it's always, yeah, compelling to go

926
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:31,919
Speaker 2: out there.

927
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: And he said, that's the thing is the game is

928
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: so great because it's challenging. If it was easy, it

929
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: would be way less of a game. Like it wouldn't.

930
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: But one of the things that golf has that everywhere else,

931
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: every other sport has doesn't have, is like golf has

932
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: people that are just absolute nuts. Like my wife isn't

933
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,439
Speaker 1: a golfer. She thinks we're all just crazy. We're all

934
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: batshit crazy. And you know the only reason why is

935
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: because the game is so hard. Like whether you shoot,

936
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: whether you're a plus four handicap and shoots sixty seven

937
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: or a fifteen handicap that shoots eighty two, those people

938
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 1: get off the golf course after great rounds and they're

939
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: thinking about, man, if I would have just made that putt,

940
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: or I wouldn't hit that stupid web shot, I would

941
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 1: have I could have shot this, Like what other sport

942
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: Like if you win by twenty five. In basketball, everybody's like, yeah,

943
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: that was great, nobody belaboring, you know, as miss three pointer.

944
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: But in golf, like it's this. It's so achievable yet

945
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: so unachievable in the same sense for sure.

946
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 2: And you know, you can go out and play the

947
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 2: same course tomorrow that you played today, and the worst

948
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 2: hole that you had today may end up being the

949
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 2: best hole that you played tomorrow, because tomorrow is a

950
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 2: completely another day, and that's an enjoyable aspect to the adventure.

951
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the interest of the best part about

952
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 1: it is being is that thin line. And I think

953
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: this is there's a thin line and design. Everything with

954
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: golf is a thin line, but like the thin line

955
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: of teetering on perfection and brilliance and success and just disaster.

956
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: And the greatest golf courses force you to to flirt

957
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 1: with the line a lot of times in order to

958
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 1: reap the success. But you can play away from it,

959
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: but you're never gonna you can't play away from it

960
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 1: all day. I think you know, Bill on the podcast

961
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 1: he had when he was talking about the second hole

962
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 1: at Talking Stick was great. He's like, you know, you

963
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: can play left and you can play away from the

964
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 1: trouble all day long, you know, until you know you

965
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: can get it all the way up by the green,

966
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: But eventually you're gonna have to hit that shot around

967
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 1: the green and you got the trouble still, Like, eventually

968
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to face the trouble.

969
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's why golf on a flat hole can

970
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 2: be very compelling.

971
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: I think about that hole all the time. It's so funny.

972
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: I played that, of course, way before I was into this,

973
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 1: and I always remember that whole like I was like, oh,

974
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 1: that's a great golfle. Yeah, so I got we we

975
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 1: got a tight window. We gotta do this. You're gonna

976
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: be in Chicago more so we'll have to do this again.

977
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: We'll have part two at another time. So, Dave, thanks

978
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: for coming on. People can find you. You're not real

979
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: active on uh on social media.

980
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 2: No, they can find me there though if they want to,

981
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 2: if they want to rib me or they want to chat,

982
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 2: they can find me there. But I tend to, you know,

983
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 2: kind of concentrate on being a father and and work

984
01:04:50,160 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 2: and you know, all the other things going on in life.