Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We talked
Speaker 1: about the mental health services apps Better Help on the
Speaker 1: News round Up the other week, which was in the
Speaker 1: news because the Federal Trade Commissions as the company shared
Speaker 1: people's personal responses to very personal questions with Facebook and Snapchat,
Speaker 1: even after their sketchy terms of service said they wouldn't
Speaker 1: do that. Better Help spokespeople did not admit wrongdoings of
Speaker 1: Pride surprise, but they did have to pay out seven
Speaker 1: point eight million dollars to about a million people who
Speaker 1: use their services, including Better Help, but also their apps
Speaker 1: aimed at specific groups like Pride Counseling for lgbtqu users
Speaker 1: or Team Counseling for youth, and they did agree to
Speaker 1: stop doing this, so Betterhelp had to pay out an
Speaker 1: insulting nine dollars and seventy two cents for sharing vulnerable
Speaker 1: people's sensitive information. Listen, we have been a little bit
Speaker 1: suss about Betterhelp for a while, and for me it
Speaker 1: all reached a fever pitch back in twenty twenty one
Speaker 1: after the astro World crowd crush incident in Texas where
Speaker 1: ten people, some of whom were children, died. The organizers
Speaker 1: announced a partnership with Better Help to provide mental health
Speaker 1: services to the survivors, which just rubbed me the wrong way.
Speaker 1: So producer Mike and I spoke to doctor Jeff Gunther
Speaker 1: aka Therapy Jeff, one of TikTok's most trusted therapists, to
Speaker 1: dig into why ten people died, including three children, and
Speaker 1: hundreds more were injured at rapper Travis Scott's Astroworld music
Speaker 1: festival in Houston, Texas. First Hand video footage on social
Speaker 1: media shows young people pleading with crew members to stop
Speaker 1: the performance because people in the crowd were unresponsive, but
Speaker 1: authorities say Travis Scott continued to perform for thirty seven
Speaker 1: minutes after Houston police firefighters were called to what had
Speaker 1: been deemed a mass casualty event. Travis Scott even brought
Speaker 1: out rapper Drake for a guest appearance as many in
Speaker 1: the crowd screamed for help. It's not clear if Travis
Speaker 1: Scott knew the severity of the situation, but Scott does
Speaker 1: have a history of inciting crowds into dangerous behavior at
Speaker 1: his concerts. He's even faced charges for it at past
Speaker 1: concerts and Live Nation. The company behind Astro World has
Speaker 1: a long history of safety violations. Now the footage coming
Speaker 1: out of the event is horrifying, and because of Travis
Speaker 1: Scott's fan base, this was happening to very young people kids.
Speaker 1: I was getting winded, I was using all the energy
Speaker 1: I had left to me, and I came to the
Speaker 1: point where I was accepting my death. In a statement,
Speaker 1: Travis Scott says he didn't know people had died until
Speaker 1: after he'd left his stage. He also announced what he
Speaker 1: called a partnership with the therapy app Better Help to
Speaker 1: provide a free month of therapy to those impacted by
Speaker 1: the tragedy, which on its face may sound great, but
Speaker 1: Better Help has also been called out for its murky
Speaker 1: policies regarding how they use the data of clients and
Speaker 1: how they treat mental health services in general. Not to
Speaker 1: be clear, I am not an expert on digital health services,
Speaker 1: but doctor Michael Lomato, our show's producer and chief science officer,
Speaker 1: is Michael was a psychologist who does research on digital
Speaker 1: health interventions. Any lead the data team that supports digital products,
Speaker 1: which has helped hundreds of thousands of people overcome addiction. Mike,
Speaker 1: can I sit down with Jeff Gunther, a therapist who
Speaker 1: runs therapy Den, a resource to match people with diverse therapists,
Speaker 1: who uses this platform on TikTok to warn people that
Speaker 1: apps like Betterhelp might not be as good as they seem.
Speaker 2: I am Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor.
Speaker 1: So, Jeff, you run a resource called the therapy Den.
Speaker 1: How did this resource come to be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I'm in a therapist of practice therapists. Since
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, I started a local therapist directory
Speaker 2: in Portland, that's where I live. And the Portland Therapist
Speaker 2: Directory grew and I learned about what therapists are wanting
Speaker 2: or what clients are wanting when they're looking for a therapist. Then,
Speaker 2: back like three or four years ago, I used all
Speaker 2: that knowledge to launch therapy den dot com and it
Speaker 2: was sort of like meant to counter another huge therapist directory,
Speaker 2: Psychology Today. Psychology Today. You might be aware of their magazine.
Speaker 2: You'll find Psychology Today's magazines like in all of the
Speaker 2: therapist waiting rooms. One of the things I don't like
Speaker 2: about their magazine is that basically over the like many
Speaker 2: many decades that they've been producing their magazine, they primarily
Speaker 2: only have very good looking people on the cover, very
Speaker 2: skinny women that are predominantly white, So there's no diversity
Speaker 2: on their magazine cover. And that transfers over to their
Speaker 2: therapist directory, which is sort of like always rankings number
Speaker 2: one on Google, so they you can't go to psychology
Speaker 2: today and find a therapist that is competently trained in
Speaker 2: racial justice, or that is competently trained in treating transgender people,
Speaker 2: or for the longest time, you couldn't search therapist by gender,
Speaker 2: and they only had male and female gender. So there
Speaker 2: was like I made therapy the Therapy then directory to
Speaker 2: kind of like challenge them and force them or encourage
Speaker 2: them to evolve. And psychology today has been slowly kind
Speaker 2: of evolving. I don't think that they totally meet the
Speaker 2: needs of modern clients, but they're doing something about it,
Speaker 2: and I'm happy about that. So Therapy den was sort
Speaker 2: of like, all right, I'm going to try to create
Speaker 2: this disruptive force in the therapist directory field, which isn't
Speaker 2: very big, and so that was the main agenda and
Speaker 2: then we can get into it. But like back in
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, when like better Help and talks space started
Speaker 2: to become a thing, I was like, oh, okay, like
Speaker 2: they're somebody I need to target as well.
Speaker 1: I know, when I was first looking for a therapist
Speaker 1: a few years ago, I knew that I wanted a
Speaker 1: black woman. And that's partially because I had heard from
Speaker 1: my black girlfriends of these awful experiences of having to
Speaker 1: spend their time in therapy, you know, educating their white
Speaker 1: therapist about things like systemic racism. And I knew that
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do that, but finding a black
Speaker 1: woman therapist for me was incredibly difficult. It was like
Speaker 1: finding a needle in a haystack.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. That isn't how therapy should be. Like you
Speaker 2: should not be spending time that you're paying for to
Speaker 2: educate your client or educate your therapist on who you are,
Speaker 2: your culture, your background, the language that you use, where
Speaker 2: you're coming from. You know, your religion, and your ethnicity.
Speaker 2: So that's why therapy then was created so that we
Speaker 2: can like create like a ton of filters so that
Speaker 2: you can like figure out how you can find a
Speaker 2: therapist that already matches with you in lots of different ways.
Speaker 2: And also I've like taken a stance on like, here
Speaker 2: are a ton of different questions that clients should be
Speaker 2: asking their therapist in the first session. If you're black
Speaker 2: and you're seeing a therapist that's white, you need to
Speaker 2: ask that that therapist like what makes you How can
Speaker 2: you competently treat me? What do you know about my ethnicity?
Speaker 2: How do you feel when if I'm going to talk
Speaker 2: about how racist white people are, Like what do you
Speaker 2: think about you know, the black lives matters, and like
Speaker 2: all the protests and like there's just like hundreds of
Speaker 2: questions that you could ask your therapist to make sure
Speaker 2: that they are a good fit for you. And I
Speaker 2: don't think that a lot of clients know that they
Speaker 2: can like interview their therapist on that first session and
Speaker 2: ask that therapist tell me, like the specific training that
Speaker 2: you've received, talk to me about like the supervisors and
Speaker 2: the consultation groups that you're in. So I know that,
Speaker 2: so that I know that you can competently treat me.
Speaker 2: So that's a whole thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that you're giving clients and just people
Speaker 1: the like empowering them with a language and tools to
Speaker 1: advocate for themselves. I love that so you talked about
Speaker 1: your relationship with these therapy apps that have really become
Speaker 1: ubiquitous in the last few years, things like better Help
Speaker 1: and talk Space. You know, when I first heard about
Speaker 1: these apps, they did really seem like an accessible way
Speaker 1: for folks to access like therapists. But so many therapists
Speaker 1: I've heard from do not like these apps. Can you
Speaker 1: tell me why that is?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but let's start there. Like, you're right, the accessibility
Speaker 2: that these apps have like tapped into it is so
Speaker 2: incredibly difficult, and I wish it wasn't. It's a systemic issue,
Speaker 2: but it's so incredibly difficult for somebody to just like
Speaker 2: find a therapist it's a good match for them. There's
Speaker 2: a ton of searching that you have to do. There's
Speaker 2: confusing insurance that you have to like wade through. It
Speaker 2: can be expensive, there's like a ton of roadblocks. So
Speaker 2: many therapists are booked, especially because everybody in the fun
Speaker 2: and world decided to get therapy at the same goddamn time,
Speaker 2: which is totally fine. I get it. I understand. I
Speaker 2: love that you're getting therapy, but therapists are so busy,
Speaker 2: so you're just like you even if you find a
Speaker 2: therapist who is a good match. It's incredibly frustrating because
Speaker 2: they might not have any openings. But then betterhelp Talkspace,
Speaker 2: Cerebral other apps like that have come along and they're
Speaker 2: just like, hey, click a button, we are the uber
Speaker 2: of therapy. Download the app, click this button, check the
Speaker 2: terms of service, don't worry about reading it. It's confusing anyways,
Speaker 2: and we will set you up with a therapist, just
Speaker 2: any therapist. Is it a good match? I don't know.
Speaker 2: We hope so maybe. But like they've tapped into the
Speaker 2: accessibility part where it's just like it's so understandable, Like
Speaker 2: people are getting so frustrated, so of course they're going
Speaker 2: to go to these apps, especially like younger people that
Speaker 2: are used to doing that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is an excellent point that they really did
Speaker 3: identif by a true need that exists out there. Of
Speaker 3: it's difficult to find a therapist. And we talk a
Speaker 3: lot on this show about bad things that the internet
Speaker 3: and tech bring to us, but I was talking with
Speaker 3: bridget the other day. One of the things she mentioned
Speaker 3: was how her favorite stories are about the great things
Speaker 3: that the internet does to like bring people together or
Speaker 3: help somebody be seen or find whatever it is that
Speaker 3: they're looking for, and it really seems like they sort
Speaker 3: of zeroed in on that and it is a real
Speaker 3: need that they've addressed it is.
Speaker 2: It's a real need. And on the platforms there are
Speaker 2: actually amazing therapists, Like my beef is not what the
Speaker 2: therapists that are contracted to provide therapy. They are like
Speaker 2: trained to you know, end licensed and they're they're great.
Speaker 2: So yeah, they tap into a need and somebody needed
Speaker 2: to do it. And it's because like because therapists and
Speaker 2: private practice cannot all get their shit together. We're all
Speaker 2: running our own little individual small businesses, so we can't
Speaker 2: all come together and like figure out how to solve
Speaker 2: this problem. It's not just therapists are being to come together.
Speaker 2: It's just like so many layers of everything that needs
Speaker 2: to come together in order to fix this. So these
Speaker 2: tech companies, which are super savvy, they're the ones that
Speaker 2: did it. So bravo, I hate you.
Speaker 1: You compared these apps to Uber, and you know it's
Speaker 1: one of those things like should getting a therapist, should
Speaker 1: starting the journey to like deal with your trauma, unpack
Speaker 1: your issues? Should that look like an Uber business model
Speaker 1: that we know has so much exploitation, whether it's the
Speaker 1: exploitation of drivers, the exploitation of writer details and writer privacy.
Speaker 1: Should should that relationship mimic uber and I would argue, no,
Speaker 1: it shouldn't. That accessibility is good. The idea of having
Speaker 1: a therapist at your fingertips sounds great, but when you
Speaker 1: actually think of at it harder, you're like, wait, should
Speaker 1: therapy be the same be a similar kind of business
Speaker 1: framework as something like an uber where you can get
Speaker 1: a ride at the push of a button. And maybe
Speaker 1: this driver isn't being treated well and maybe they aren't
Speaker 1: being super careful with my data. Who knows, I don't know.
Speaker 1: The answers might be buried in the third page of
Speaker 1: some you know, murky privacy documents somewhere, like I'm not
Speaker 1: really sure. Should getting into a relationship with a therapist
Speaker 1: really be the same way that it is when you
Speaker 1: just like hail a taxi to your home?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean no, I think not at all, because, like,
Speaker 2: you know, if someone's driving you from the restaurant to
Speaker 2: your home, Like, I don't know, I guess that person
Speaker 2: can kind of be anybody as long as they're like
Speaker 2: good enough, you know, they're not going to bother you.
Speaker 2: They're going to like be quiet whatever, they'll they'll do
Speaker 2: what they need to do to get you from like
Speaker 2: point A to point B. But when you're looking for
Speaker 2: a therapist, it's not just like are they good enough?
Speaker 2: Are they going to like talk to you or listen?
Speaker 2: It's like are they actually qualified to treat you? Do
Speaker 2: they understand on your experience in a like deep way?
Speaker 2: And you need to shop around for therapists and talk
Speaker 2: to multiple therapists in order to find somebody who's a
Speaker 2: good enough match. And instead of just being handed one
Speaker 2: like Uber would do, or like talk space or better
Speaker 2: help does so. No, I don't think so, but there
Speaker 2: are apps and tech companies that like understand that Betterhelp
Speaker 2: is not doing this well and somebody else needs to
Speaker 2: do it better. So there is like a newer app
Speaker 2: that's I think is maybe just in like Florida or
Speaker 2: Georgia right now, called Hurdle. Have you ever heard of Hurdle? No, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's I just heard about it. And they contacted me
Speaker 2: to like let me know about what they're doing. And
Speaker 2: they contacted me because they're like, hey, can you sponsor
Speaker 2: us on TikTok and I said no, but only because
Speaker 2: it sort of like conflicts with therapy done where I'm
Speaker 2: trying to connect people. So it's anyways, I love them
Speaker 2: and what they're doing, what they've started out doing where
Speaker 2: they're like paying therapists, Well we should talk about that
Speaker 2: with Better Help, because they're not and they're like making
Speaker 2: sure that all the therapists on the platform are competently
Speaker 2: trained in racial justice and social justice and they're transcompetent
Speaker 2: and queer competent, and they're continuously going through trainings and
Speaker 2: so like they're doing it the right way. So there
Speaker 2: are apps and services out there that are starting to
Speaker 2: do it the right way. But Better Help and Talk
Speaker 2: Space they're like these first movers that have amazing marketing,
Speaker 2: especially Better Help and and yeah, so's it might be
Speaker 2: hard to compete with them.
Speaker 3: It's interesting that you say that they have better marketing,
Speaker 3: you know, because I've looked at your tiktoks and I
Speaker 3: think one of the big criticisms is how they harvest
Speaker 3: people's data and use it for marketing and advertising. And uh,
Speaker 3: you know, I clicked through I read their privacy form
Speaker 3: and yeah, they're just using all of your data, including
Speaker 3: your communications with your counselor for third party marketing, and
Speaker 3: so it made me wonder, like how much of their
Speaker 3: business model is actual therapy delivery and how much are
Speaker 3: they an advertising company?
Speaker 2: Exactly? Yes, they get so much amazing personal data on
Speaker 2: your mental health information, who you are, when was your
Speaker 2: you know, are you suicidal, when was your last suicide attempt?
Speaker 2: How much money do you make? Uh, where do you live,
Speaker 2: what are your pronouns? What's your sexual orientation? Uh, what's
Speaker 2: your gender? Like there's They get the most detailed information
Speaker 2: about how much, how often you're talking to your therapist,
Speaker 2: if you're meeting your therapist goal, if you're married, counseling goals,
Speaker 2: like so much stuff incredibly valuable. I don't know like
Speaker 2: how much money they make off of it, or if
Speaker 2: they make any money off it, if they're making all
Speaker 2: of their money off of that, but they that information
Speaker 2: is incredibly valuable, and they did. They were a little
Speaker 2: bit more clear a few months ago when I made
Speaker 2: one of my first TikTok videos about them and going
Speaker 2: through their privacy policy about like all the information that
Speaker 2: they collect. Since I sort of like exposed them and
Speaker 2: it got, you know, over a million views of their
Speaker 2: like privacy policy, and they've changed their privacy policy to
Speaker 2: make it so much more vague and so much more
Speaker 2: confusing and actually gives them so much more leeway when
Speaker 2: it comes to like sharing your data. They can share
Speaker 2: your data with their corporate partners. Do you know who
Speaker 2: their corporate partners are? Fuck? No, who the fuck knows?
Speaker 2: I have no idea. They don't list them. They can
Speaker 2: share it with their ad network. You know who's in
Speaker 2: their ad network? I have no fucking idea. Probably a
Speaker 2: ton of people. They can. They can use it for
Speaker 2: marketing purposes and whatever the hell they want to use
Speaker 2: it for. So we don't know why, what they're using
Speaker 2: for exactly, We don't know who they're sharing it with,
Speaker 2: we don't know how much money they're making off of it.
Speaker 2: And the only way that you can use their app
Speaker 2: is if you check off the terms of service, which
Speaker 2: like allows them to use all this information. I would
Speaker 2: love it if they gave you an option to not
Speaker 2: like sell your data on my HBO Mac subscription. There's
Speaker 2: a little checkbox that says, are we allowed? Can we
Speaker 2: like use your third party data? And I can just
Speaker 2: be like, nope, better help doesn't do that And why
Speaker 2: would they ever do it because they're probably making a
Speaker 2: ton of money.
Speaker 1: Something else that I'd like to mention is that you
Speaker 1: know they're able to sell your information to third parties,
Speaker 1: and so if they sold your information to a company
Speaker 1: like Facebook, then you think about all the different data
Speaker 1: that we know that Facebook is able to collect, combined
Speaker 1: with whatever they have from your your relationship with your
Speaker 1: counselor through better help, it becomes clearer. Just like we're
Speaker 1: not talking about little bits and pieces of data. They
Speaker 1: really can and mine and harvest a real composite like
Speaker 1: portrait of who you are and sell that for profit.
Speaker 1: And I just fundamentally believe that that is not how
Speaker 1: a relationship with a mental health specialist should look. And
Speaker 1: to me, there is not another word for that other
Speaker 1: than like exploitation. And like I guess, I really see
Speaker 1: it as this kind of capitalistic mining of the most
Speaker 1: sensitive stuff about us so that corporate interests can get
Speaker 1: better pockets. And it's just so depressing and demoralizing.
Speaker 2: Oh god, it is, it really is.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break er back. So you might
Speaker 1: be thinking, what about HIPPA, the Health Insurance Portability and
Speaker 1: Accountability Act, a law that created national standards to protect
Speaker 1: patient health information from being disclosed without consent. Doesn't HIPPA
Speaker 1: prevent our health information from being used to sell things?
Speaker 1: In this case, the answer is not really. Our producer
Speaker 1: Mike works with health information, and that means he spends
Speaker 1: a lot of time dealing with hippap Here's what he
Speaker 1: had to say.
Speaker 3: I work within the constraints of HIPPA every day, and
Speaker 3: I think it's probably one of the most misunderstood laws
Speaker 3: in America. People think HIPPA protects all of their health
Speaker 3: information all of the time, but it doesn't. HIPPA only
Speaker 3: applies to a very narrow set of actors and circumstances. Basically,
Speaker 3: it applies to healthcare providers and their contractors. Better Health
Speaker 3: is neither of those things. In a page on their
Speaker 3: website convincingly titled online therapy Services, are they legit question mark,
Speaker 3: they repeatedly use phrases like HIPPA compliant therapists. What they
Speaker 3: don't say is that the therapists are bound by HIPPA
Speaker 3: because they're providing healthcare. But better Health the platform is not.
Speaker 3: Because they aren't providing healthcare. They're simply connecting you with
Speaker 3: the providers and so they are bound only by the
Speaker 3: terms of service by creating an account. HIPPO was signed
Speaker 3: into law in nineteen ninety six, around the same time
Speaker 3: Bill Clinton was describing the Internet as an information super highway.
Speaker 3: It's authors never imagined all the ways the Internet would
Speaker 3: revolutionize how we access healthcare. And so we've come to
Speaker 3: this place where most Americans believe their private health information
Speaker 3: is legally protected, but that's just not always true. In reality,
Speaker 3: many of the digital services we use have no greater
Speaker 3: legal obligation to protect information about our health than information
Speaker 3: about what TV shows we like to watch or what
Speaker 3: types of sneakers we want to buy. So the question is,
Speaker 3: are we okay with for profit tech companies like betterhelp
Speaker 3: setting the precedent around privacy and digital health services because
Speaker 3: that's where we're at.
Speaker 2: And one of the questions that I get all the time, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because you're right, they know you intimately, like so many
Speaker 2: things about you. And the question I get is like,
Speaker 2: how is this not a hip of violation? What is
Speaker 2: making this okay? So if you are my client and
Speaker 2: you're seeing me in my private practice, I'm your therapist,
Speaker 2: all the notes that I write on you is actually
Speaker 2: your property. That's all yours. You can go to your therapist.
Speaker 2: You can be like, give me my notes, and a
Speaker 2: therapist legally has to hand that over to you. That's
Speaker 2: all of your medical information we need to give it.
Speaker 2: So if my client came in and was like, Jeff,
Speaker 2: give me all of the notes that you've been keeping
Speaker 2: on me, and I give it over to them, they
Speaker 2: could take all of those all that mental health information,
Speaker 2: and they could sell it to an advertiser. They can
Speaker 2: give it to Facebook. As a client, you can do
Speaker 2: whatever you want with your medical information. And that's what's happening.
Speaker 2: When you sign up for Better Help. You're saying, Okay,
Speaker 2: all of the information that I'm providing to this therapist
Speaker 2: is mine, and now I'm giving it to you Better Help.
Speaker 2: You can do whatever you want with it. So that's
Speaker 2: another way that they're able to get around it. And
Speaker 2: so one of my big things was like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: I can fuck over Better Help if I can like
Speaker 2: go to the state licensing boards in all of the states.
Speaker 2: I'd start with like California and New York and be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: y'all therapists are seeing these clients and they know that
Speaker 2: the client information that we like ethically legally have to
Speaker 2: keep confidential is being given to Better Help and given
Speaker 2: to like advertisers. Should these therapists be allowed to provide
Speaker 2: therapy on Better Help? Should these therapists be disciplined or
Speaker 2: have their license taken away? Not that I want to
Speaker 2: get those licenses taken away, but maybe I can put
Speaker 2: pressure on Better Help. And the problem is is that
Speaker 2: like what I just mentioned, it's the client information and
Speaker 2: they can hand it over. There also is somebody something
Speaker 2: in Hippa where like Hippo's just like everything has to
Speaker 2: say confidential unless maybe it's used for marketing purposes and
Speaker 2: it's anonymoused, so like they also have that like gray area.
Speaker 2: There's so many things that are detecting Better Help.
Speaker 3: It seems though that like stepping back to harvest all
Speaker 3: of this personal information about somebody's mental health and then
Speaker 3: use it to make advertising revenue, it just feels.
Speaker 2: Wrong, right, like oh there's that. Yeah, it just doesn't
Speaker 2: sit well. It just doesn't feel okay. That shouldn't be
Speaker 2: happening obviously, like abows your therapistness, anonymizing your info and
Speaker 2: selling it to advertisers. I would lose my license and
Speaker 2: I should that just shouldn't be a part of the
Speaker 2: therapy process. But we're in this like funky, weird, shitty
Speaker 2: capitalist whatever time where like that's okay, and they're incredibly
Speaker 2: protected and they're going to probably continue to do that.
Speaker 2: And betterhelp is you know, they interacted with me a
Speaker 2: little bit by like leaving some comments on some of
Speaker 2: my TikTok videos, and now they have there just ignoring me,
Speaker 2: which is probably a very good business decision on their
Speaker 2: because like, who the fuck am I?
Speaker 1: I mean, you did like your tiktoks had an impact
Speaker 1: when you were describing how they changed their you know,
Speaker 1: their privacy policy. For a hot second, I thought you
Speaker 1: were going to say they saw, you know, because of
Speaker 1: my tiktoks that got millions of views and they changed
Speaker 1: their privacy policy for the better. But then it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: they just made it even more vague.
Speaker 2: No, because of me, I made it worse for everybody
Speaker 2: by like pointing this out. They're just like, cool, we
Speaker 2: need to be real fucking shady now, So you're welcome, America.
Speaker 1: When I saw the news out of Texas, it had
Speaker 1: a really deep impact on me in a way that
Speaker 1: I almost can't even articulate why. There was something about
Speaker 1: the videos that were coming out of it that just
Speaker 1: really hit me in a way that you know, you
Speaker 1: think that you're desensitized to tragedy and disaster, but something
Speaker 1: about those videos really stuck with me. And I think
Speaker 1: seeing like the live stream with an Apple logo on it,
Speaker 1: where I knew that young people were facing really scary circumstances,
Speaker 1: I really can't shake the deep disturbed way that that
Speaker 1: how disturbing that was to me, Like I don't know
Speaker 1: why I've not been able to sort of like move
Speaker 1: past it, but I have not. And when I woke
Speaker 1: up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering with
Speaker 1: Better Help, that really it just seemed like a cherry
Speaker 1: on top of this exploitation cake where these young people
Speaker 1: had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest ways
Speaker 1: for profit, to make money for corporate interest, whether we're
Speaker 1: talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott, the organizer's Apple streaming platforms, whatever,
Speaker 1: and then in the aftermath of that horrific traumatic tragedy,
Speaker 1: what they were being offered was just another way to
Speaker 1: serve them up to be further mined and exploited and
Speaker 1: it was like it broke my brain. I couldn't even
Speaker 1: conceptualize the debts to how broken so many systems are
Speaker 1: where that's the thing they're being offered and even still
Speaker 1: one month of it, so it's like it's already shitty
Speaker 1: what they're being offered. But it's not even that long.
Speaker 1: Some of these kids probably have like complex PTSD. It
Speaker 1: takes longer than a month to treat that. What were
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that partnership?
Speaker 2: Yeah, garbage. I thought it was a dumpster fire. I
Speaker 2: thought it was. I felt the same way that you felt. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like a bunch of you know, corporations creating trauma
Speaker 2: and then sending those traumatized kids to Better Help where
Speaker 2: they're going to like mine their data and make a
Speaker 2: ton of money. It's it was disturbing, it was upsetting,
Speaker 2: and it reminded me of when Better Help used to
Speaker 2: I still think they kind of do this, but back
Speaker 2: in like twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, they were going to
Speaker 2: all the therapist directories out there that attract, you know,
Speaker 2: the clients that are looking for therapists, and they're just
Speaker 2: trying to like either buy them up or quote unquote
Speaker 2: partner with them in order to like take all of
Speaker 2: their business and like direct those those users into the
Speaker 2: Better Help ecosystem. And so they approached me when I
Speaker 2: like launched therapy then and they're like, hey, can we
Speaker 2: go ahead and take like therapist profiles and add them
Speaker 2: to your directory so that if any of the people
Speaker 2: that are using your directory that you know, find they
Speaker 2: could like find one of our Better Help therapists and
Speaker 2: then create services or create you know, start therapy with them.
Speaker 2: And every time somebody signs up for Better Help through therapy,
Speaker 2: then will pay you three hundred dollars, which is a
Speaker 2: ton of money. And because they're like, you could potentially
Speaker 2: make eighty thousand dollars a month because we've like made
Speaker 2: had this deal, created this deal with other therapist directories
Speaker 2: that are the same size as yours. And I know
Speaker 2: those therapist directories and I know the owners and some
Speaker 2: of them are buddies of mine, So I was like
Speaker 2: talking to them about like what went on, and those
Speaker 2: therapist directories were like basically taken over and just used
Speaker 2: as like a funnel in order to like you know,
Speaker 2: get even more people to sign up for Better Help.
Speaker 2: So you don't really own your therapist directory anymore. They
Speaker 2: just sort of like take it over because they put
Speaker 2: thousands and thousands twenty thousand different like therapist profiles or
Speaker 2: something like on on your directory. And it's also like
Speaker 2: therapy done is about like matching people with like a
Speaker 2: good competent therapist that you know is a good fit,
Speaker 2: and Better Help can't do that at all. It's a
Speaker 2: therapy mel So it didn't feel okay, it allow would
Speaker 2: lose control, Like it just didn't feel like a good
Speaker 2: match at all. And I like started to That's when
Speaker 2: I started to like really learn about their privacy policy
Speaker 2: and the data mining and shit like that. And I
Speaker 2: would imagine that like all the marketing that they do
Speaker 2: that Better Help does, and all the podcasts and NPR
Speaker 2: and shit like that, all of those companies are probably
Speaker 2: getting like a very nice kickback because Betterhelp was like, Hey,
Speaker 2: on average, we make twelve hundred dollars, we bring in
Speaker 2: twelve hundred dollars. When somebody who signs up for Better Help,
Speaker 2: we are very much willing to like pay you three
Speaker 2: hundred dollars when we collect twelve hundred dollars. Also, we're
Speaker 2: going to pay the therapist. Shit so like it's not
Speaker 2: even like we have like too much of an overhead cost.
Speaker 1: You talk about how the therapists are just not only
Speaker 1: are they not paid what like like a comparable amount
Speaker 1: that they can make in private practice or elsewhere, but
Speaker 1: also you know they're I learned from your tiktoks they're
Speaker 1: sometimes paid by the word, and so once they hit
Speaker 1: their work out, they kind of have to decide if
Speaker 1: they want to continue treating a client who very well,
Speaker 1: maybe in crisis, basically out of the goodness of their
Speaker 1: heart because they care about this client. For free, clients
Speaker 1: can access their therapists twenty four hours a day, seven
Speaker 1: days a week, which sounds really good in theory. But
Speaker 1: then you're like, should you have access to a therapist
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven I would say no, that maybe
Speaker 1: you should have some boundaries around how you access your therapist.
Speaker 1: It's kind of stunning to hear about how much money
Speaker 1: they must be taking in via how much money gets
Speaker 1: spent gets given to their actual therapists who are doing
Speaker 1: the work of the stating this platform.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one, I mean that the therapists are getting maybe
Speaker 2: around thirty a little less than thirty dollars an hour Ideally,
Speaker 2: if you're a therapist and you're seeing clients who want
Speaker 2: to get at least one hundred dollars an hour, that's
Speaker 2: what we're aiming for, if not more if you live
Speaker 2: in more expensive cities. But but our help is like,
Speaker 2: we will pay you up to fifty dollars an hour
Speaker 2: if you work more hours per week. So if you
Speaker 2: work up to fifty hours a week, you'll get our
Speaker 2: top pay, which is fucking bonkers. I don't even understand
Speaker 2: why that's a pay scale that exists. Like, work fifteen hours,
Speaker 2: get thirty dollars or less an hour, work up to
Speaker 2: fifty hours a week more, I don't know. That's the
Speaker 2: whole fucking thing. I hate that. And then it's they
Speaker 2: pay you based on word count, so you can't go
Speaker 2: over the word count that they like provide if you
Speaker 2: do start like providing more support, if you start texting
Speaker 2: more support and going over the word count, you're working
Speaker 2: for fucking free therapists. They're not going to pay you
Speaker 2: for it. So maybe they're paying you thirty dollars an hour,
Speaker 2: but it's actually a lot less if you like feel
Speaker 2: like you need to give even more support to that client,
Speaker 2: and of course, just like uber and Lyft or whatever,
Speaker 2: like you're not getting benefits. You're a contract. You're not
Speaker 2: like getting paid time off, you know, like you have
Speaker 2: to provide all of your equipment, you know. So it's
Speaker 2: just like it's a bunch of bullshit that therapists are
Speaker 2: getting exploited, and they're able to exploit these therapists that
Speaker 2: are usually like fresh out of grad school or just
Speaker 2: looking for a little part time work or something, And yeah,
Speaker 2: twenty four hour access to a therapist clinically no, not okay,
Speaker 2: that's not creating self reliance. You need to be able
Speaker 2: to kind of like go and do your thing and
Speaker 2: then be able to check back with your therapist. I
Speaker 2: understand why that's appealing though, but imagine under stand that
Speaker 2: that therapist with a caseload of like ten twenty thirty,
Speaker 2: forty fifty clients a week, You're they're getting pinged all
Speaker 2: the fucking time. So there's no way that a therapist
Speaker 2: is able. But like a therapist must have to it's
Speaker 2: in their contract that they have to respond within twenty
Speaker 2: four hours, no matter what day or time it is,
Speaker 2: which is not very realistic. Plus there's this like thing
Speaker 2: where like if there's if betterhelp has like a flood
Speaker 2: of people signing up, They're like, Okay, I know that
Speaker 2: you have a ton of clients, but will you take
Speaker 2: these new clients? Will pay you more for these new clients,
Speaker 2: which sort of incentivizes therapists to drop their old clients
Speaker 2: that they're not getting paid enough for in the first place,
Speaker 2: to then take the new clients. It's such a stupid,
Speaker 2: fucked up system. I hate it. Can you tell?
Speaker 1: It's so fucked up? And this is not how therapy
Speaker 1: is meant to be. This is not how it should
Speaker 1: look to access mental health care. And you know, in
Speaker 1: the wake of the astront World thing, it's like it
Speaker 1: is a it's an exploitation layer cake where the clients,
Speaker 1: the potential clients, are going to be exploited, the therapists
Speaker 1: running the side are being exploited. Everybody's being exploited except
Speaker 1: for the tech overlords who like are possibly like making
Speaker 1: money from the people that are being referred from this tragedy. Honestly,
Speaker 1: talking to you has helped me make sense of why
Speaker 1: it made me so deeply, deeply angry and disgusted, like
Speaker 1: I had such a visceral reaction. Also just the use
Speaker 1: of the word partnership, like, you know, using this tragedy
Speaker 1: as a branding opportunity. I really found it deeply, deeply,
Speaker 1: like just disgusting, and I think talking to you is
Speaker 1: really made it so clear that yeah, that wasn't that
Speaker 1: was it. I was almost about to say, like an
Speaker 1: irrational response, that was a rational response, because it is
Speaker 1: really fucked up, but it is really disgusting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very rational response to a very irrational
Speaker 2: thing that's occurring.
Speaker 3: Totally, You've described all these numbers of like caseloads of
Speaker 3: forty or fifty patients a wee, Which like, what a joke.
Speaker 3: How can you be providing like high quality of care.
Speaker 3: I haven't heard you say anything about like the evaluation
Speaker 3: process or you know, any sort of quality controlled do
Speaker 3: you know if they do, Like I just have to
Speaker 3: imagine that the quality of care that patients are receiving
Speaker 3: is pretty low with a caseload like that. But is
Speaker 3: that something that they look at or measure or talk about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. I've never
Speaker 2: come across any sort of like data or survey about
Speaker 2: the quality of care, So I don't know, And I
Speaker 2: just feel I feel bad for everybody involved. I feel
Speaker 2: really bad for the therapists that are getting burnt out,
Speaker 2: that are kind of like forced to work longer or
Speaker 2: more hours. And this is I don't know, I don't
Speaker 2: know if I can say that, Well whatever, maybe we'll
Speaker 2: head it out. But there's can you say that if
Speaker 2: you want to. You're somebody that's seeing a better help
Speaker 2: therapist and you really like like your therapist, because there's
Speaker 2: a ton of really great therapists on there, and this
Speaker 2: conversation is upsetting or disturbing you. If you wanted to
Speaker 2: ask your better help therapist, if they have their own
Speaker 2: private practice and they are accepting clients, then that's something
Speaker 2: you can ask them and you can talk to them about.
Speaker 2: The better help therapists obviously are not allowed to be
Speaker 2: like out of private practice. If you want to see
Speaker 2: me there and you know, even pay me, if you like,
Speaker 2: pay that therapist the same amount that you're giving better help,
Speaker 2: then what their hourly rate has doubled or tripled, you
Speaker 2: know by that time. So so, because I get a
Speaker 2: lot of feedback like, oh but I love my better
Speaker 2: help therapist. Let stick with that better help therapist. I'm
Speaker 2: so happy for you. Also, maybe you can see them
Speaker 2: in their private practice and get out of like better
Speaker 2: Help if you want to. I think I can say that.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's good if vice, because it sounds
Speaker 1: like you're being so clear that you're not trying to
Speaker 1: say that better Help doesn't have great, kick ass therapists
Speaker 1: on the platform, but that the platform itself does not
Speaker 1: support these therapists to giving the best quality of care
Speaker 1: that they can, and so there might be other ways
Speaker 1: to access that same therapist that you might love who's
Speaker 1: on Better Help in a way where they're not being
Speaker 1: sort of set up to give you not as good
Speaker 1: of care as you could be getting otherwise.
Speaker 3: Right exactly, And your therapists in their private practice probably
Speaker 3: won't sell all your personal mental health information.
Speaker 2: Most likely they are not going to do that.
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into
Speaker 1: it now. I'm not the only one who has a
Speaker 1: problem with Better Helps partnership with Travis Scott. In the
Speaker 1: wake of the Astro World tragedy. The response has not
Speaker 1: been good, and Betterhelp is working overtime to correct what
Speaker 1: they're calling misinformation about their platform. Now, it's worth noting
Speaker 1: that Better Help waited until the partnership got negative reactions
Speaker 1: online to clarify pretty basic details about the arrangement, frankly,
Speaker 1: making patient protection seem like kind of an afterthought. They
Speaker 1: released an FAQ where they say that people who use
Speaker 1: the free month of Better Help services will not be
Speaker 1: billed after that month is up, and they say that
Speaker 1: Travis Scott isn't making any money from the partnership. Now,
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of tech company corporate devil speaking
Speaker 1: my day, and I'd like the company to clarify whether
Speaker 1: this also pertains to any business or philanthropic entities Travis
Speaker 1: Scott might be affiliated with. They also answer the frequently
Speaker 1: asked question, is information members enter on Betterhealth ever sold
Speaker 1: to advertising platforms or third parties? Now they answer this
Speaker 1: with an emphatic no. Period. That can't be the whole
Speaker 1: story because on their own privacy policy, in the section
Speaker 1: called purposes for which information is used, they say your
Speaker 1: information may be used to quote personalized website experience, including
Speaker 1: targeted offers and ads throughout our websites, third party sites,
Speaker 1: and via email or text message. They also say quote,
Speaker 1: we may share your information with any subsidiaries or parent
Speaker 1: companies within our corporate group. So who are these other
Speaker 1: companies in their corporate group and what products are being advertised?
Speaker 1: Is Better Health using your personal mental information to buy
Speaker 1: ads or sell ads? Why rely on such vague language
Speaker 1: when discussing something as important as our health and privacy?
Speaker 1: I believe Better Health is intentionally exploiting vague language and
Speaker 1: gray areas and their privacy policies to mislead the public,
Speaker 1: which under normal circumstances is bad, but it's especially egregious
Speaker 1: to do that after a tragedy. Do you feel like
Speaker 1: the public it's owed a little bit of transparency about
Speaker 1: this partnership. I feel like, especially given that the folks
Speaker 1: who were at that festival are like a lot of
Speaker 1: them are young people. I feel like it is a
Speaker 1: public like a public good for Better Help and or
Speaker 1: Travis Scott to say, hey, we're doing this therapy, this
Speaker 1: therapy partnership for folks who were impacted by this tragedy.
Speaker 1: Here's who's making money on it, Here's how your data
Speaker 1: is going to be used. You know here, like whether
Speaker 1: Travis Scott, Better Help or both are making some sort
Speaker 1: of like cut or kickback. Do you feel like it's
Speaker 1: in the public interest for us to have that information
Speaker 1: in a transparent way.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yes, And like in my most recent
Speaker 2: TikTok video that's on Twitter and everywhere else, I'm saying that,
Speaker 2: like what's going on, Like, let's be clear here who's
Speaker 2: getting paid? Uh do how do you continue care after
Speaker 2: that one month? How much is it going to cost
Speaker 2: in order to like continue? Like there, it's just also murky.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would love if there's more transparency around.
Speaker 2: But the way that better help operates is just like
Speaker 2: they're very good at like making shit real vague, and unfortunately,
Speaker 2: whenever I push against them, or anyone pushes up against them,
Speaker 2: they just get even more vague and more vague and
Speaker 2: get into that gray area. So hopefully this will like
Speaker 2: get more people to become concerned and ask them to
Speaker 2: be more transparent about what they're doing and the deal
Speaker 2: that's being set up.
Speaker 1: Travis Scott, Yeah, I just feel like we're in this
Speaker 1: age where things that technology that is meant to be
Speaker 1: like a wellness focused thing or a mental health focused thing,
Speaker 1: we're in this weird gray area where everything feels kind
Speaker 1: of scammy and like not really regulated, and so we
Speaker 1: have all of these apps that are sort of mental
Speaker 1: health ish or like wellness ish or like medical care ish,
Speaker 1: and you just have to add, like are these regulated?
Speaker 1: Are they safe? Am I actually getting good information from
Speaker 1: like a competent trained medical health professional. I wonder, like,
Speaker 1: do you feel the same way that we're in this
Speaker 1: sort of wild West where there are so many tech
Speaker 1: platforms offering us wellness or you know, medical care, but
Speaker 1: in this very gray area way where they can sort
Speaker 1: of avoid having to answer some of these questions about
Speaker 1: you know, the quality of care that you're actually getting.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. And they're so savvy, they're so slick,
Speaker 2: they know exactly what they're doing, so you just kind
Speaker 2: of like give this like these ish services and it
Speaker 2: works well enough. And also you know all these like
Speaker 2: podcasts or MPR whoever, like it's such a good look
Speaker 2: for them. I'm like, oh, therapy, you know, like it
Speaker 2: looks like there. It's so nice to quot unquote partner
Speaker 2: with them because it sort of like lifts their brand up.
Speaker 2: You know, so it's just like this feel good, lovely thing,
Speaker 2: but we don't know what's going on like right behind
Speaker 2: the scenes, and MPR, fuck you, MPR. They're like I
Speaker 2: hate that MPR. It's like running ads all over the place.
Speaker 2: I mean it's all over Oregon with like NPR and
Speaker 2: OPB over here where there's just I'm constantly hearing Better
Speaker 2: Help and I'm emailing NPR and Oregon Public Procects. I'm
Speaker 2: like letting them know, like I want to be on
Speaker 2: your show. This is not okay. If you understood the
Speaker 2: values of this company, you would have a fucking aneurysm
Speaker 2: about it. But like they're not responding to me and
Speaker 2: they're not doing anything about it. So it's this weird
Speaker 2: like halo effect that happens when they do partner with
Speaker 2: these Better Help and like, yeah, no, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And it's.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've said a mouthful. And I know in
Speaker 1: the podcast space specifically that Better Help has a It's
Speaker 1: like one of those ubiquitous brands that you hear if
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts, you've definitely heard of Better Help ad.
Speaker 1: And I have, you know, friends and colleagues who I'm
Speaker 1: sure do Better Help ads. And I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: like call anybody out, but I also feel like you
Speaker 1: have to take a little bit of responsibility for the
Speaker 1: cop for like not so it's not just a financial
Speaker 1: arrangement where they pay you and you read the ad.
Speaker 1: But if you sound like you're endorsing their their values
Speaker 1: and endorsing their practices, and if you're using your like
Speaker 1: MPR voice to make this service seem really good and
Speaker 1: progressive and like a good like a good idea, like
Speaker 1: I do think we have to step back and ask
Speaker 1: some hard questions of ourselves about whether or not we're
Speaker 1: allowing brands whose values do not align with our own
Speaker 1: to be kind of brandwa washed by our like you know,
Speaker 1: slick podcaster voice or you know, or be like the
Speaker 1: relationship that podcast listeners have with the with their hosts
Speaker 1: right like I feel like it like it exploits the
Speaker 1: connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast host to
Speaker 1: make these to make brands that are not so good
Speaker 1: seem like they're actually aligned with their values.
Speaker 2: I guess mm hmm, you said it totally. I keep
Speaker 2: on saying it. But like Betterhelp one of the best
Speaker 2: marketing teams I've ever seen. They're so good and they
Speaker 2: know exactly when to turn off their comments on TikTok
Speaker 2: videos because like they are, Oh, they're totally fucking off
Speaker 2: because like all the TikTokers are just like, whoa, we
Speaker 2: don't like this. This isn't like thank you Jeff for
Speaker 2: like being transparent and like like explaining their privacy policy.
Speaker 2: We're going to spam all their TikTok videos and you can't.
Speaker 2: They block everybody, like they know how to turn all
Speaker 2: that shit off. So yeah, I think podcasters and everyone
Speaker 2: with their NPR voices like really need to think about
Speaker 2: And also, like I guarantee all these podcasters are not
Speaker 2: getting their therapy through better help, Like no way are
Speaker 2: they actually doing that. So yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3: It's interesting you mentioned the you know, the halo effect there,
Speaker 3: and you know this moment that we're in where there
Speaker 3: are all these potentially scammy ish mental health services and
Speaker 3: it's like mental health it's only sort of recently become
Speaker 3: a thing that we all are talking about and acknowledging
Speaker 3: as like something that needs to be dealt with, but
Speaker 3: it's still like a very private personal thing. And I
Speaker 3: wonder if that like contributes to the viability of scams
Speaker 3: like this what you know, maybe it's a scam, maybe
Speaker 3: it's not. But like when an actor is going to
Speaker 3: participate in delivering mental health services but not respect that
Speaker 3: like privacy piece of it and just you know, completely
Speaker 3: violate those norms in pursuit of profit. It's a pretty
Speaker 3: dangerous tech enabled place.
Speaker 2: One of the good things is that it's sort of
Speaker 2: like breaking its mental health stigma is is like reducing
Speaker 2: So that's also one of the things that's like a
Speaker 2: good thing that's happening. But at what cost because there's
Speaker 2: like so much information and data sharing and like ads
Speaker 2: being directed more towards you because of this. So like
Speaker 2: yay for accessibility, yay for like the stigmatization, but like
Speaker 2: this is like profiting these huge tech companies so much,
Speaker 2: and it's so upsetting and it's so disturbing, and we
Speaker 2: need to talk even more about it.
Speaker 1: H Well, I mean so we we we don't fuck
Speaker 1: with better health, but as we know, like it can
Speaker 1: be so hard to get accessed to with therapists, So like,
Speaker 1: what are some alternatives to services like better Health that
Speaker 1: might be a little less scammy, uh and exploited it
Speaker 1: If folks out there want to access mental health services
Speaker 1: but don't know where to start.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm biased, but I love therapyn dot com. Uh.
Speaker 2: Start there. There's another therapist directory that I am in
Speaker 2: love with, Inclusive Therapists dot com. Uh the same sort
Speaker 2: of vibe and mission and values as therapy den dot com.
Speaker 2: The thing is is, like you kind of have to
Speaker 2: be okay or understand accepting of the fact that, like
Speaker 2: this is going to be a journey for you. Finding
Speaker 2: a therapist is going to take some time. And the
Speaker 2: reason it's going to take time is because you need
Speaker 2: to find somebody who's a really good match and who
Speaker 2: can competently treat you. So you're gonna have to like
Speaker 2: interview three, four, five, ten therapists possibly to like find
Speaker 2: somebody who's a good match for you. It's grueling and
Speaker 2: it sucks and I don't like it. But starting a
Speaker 2: therapy don dot com, Inclusive therapist dot com even just
Speaker 2: like googling somebody you know, like trying or going to
Speaker 2: Psychology Today dot com to like go through their therapist directory,
Speaker 2: find a therapist that's in private practice. You'll like the
Speaker 2: quality of care is through the roof compared to the
Speaker 2: quality of care that you get from betterhelp, just because
Speaker 2: the way the betterhelp is like set up, So have
Speaker 2: some patients. Really educate yourself. Ask all of the questions
Speaker 2: that you want, like how can you compident competently train me?
Speaker 2: What's your background? But also like if you want, you
Speaker 2: can be like are you married? Do you have kids?
Speaker 2: Are you from this city? Where do you hang out? What?
Speaker 2: What do you think about? Like who's your favorite sports team?
Speaker 2: Do you garden? Whatever the fuck you want? Like are
Speaker 2: you like ask all the questions. Therapists don't have to
Speaker 2: answer all these questions, but I want you to ask
Speaker 2: all the questions that will make you feel more comfortable
Speaker 2: talking to that therapist. Ask them like do you diagnose?
Speaker 2: What do you think my diagnosis might be? What is
Speaker 2: treatment going to look?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Are you cool? Whatever you need to do? So you
Speaker 2: need to start therapyded dot com wherever the hell you
Speaker 2: want to start, and then understand that you have to
Speaker 2: like go on a journey.
Speaker 1: Honestly, if it was not for your tikto, I would
Speaker 1: not have known any of this, Like, I don't think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of resources out there to help people
Speaker 1: understand companies or platforms like betterhealth and so I'm so
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you're making the content that you
Speaker 1: are because I think that you're helping people take ownership
Speaker 1: over there, or you're empowering people to advocate for themselves
Speaker 1: and take ownership over how they access these services. And
Speaker 1: so I'm so grateful for you. Where can folks keep
Speaker 1: up with you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can look for search for Therapy then
Speaker 2: on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram. I am also I
Speaker 2: produce a podcast called Swoon Love Lessons with Julian Gina.
Speaker 2: So Julian Gina are sex therapists and experts and every
Speaker 2: now and then I'll hop on and be on a
Speaker 2: podcast episode with them. So you can find me there
Speaker 2: talking like given love advice. I'm an amazing at giving
Speaker 2: love advice. So so that's where you can find me,
Speaker 2: and you can personally email me at Hello at therapy
Speaker 2: dot com if you have any questions.
Speaker 1: The Astra World disaster has turned into a hotbed of
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. In our next episode, we'll hear from researcher
Speaker 1: Abby Richards about why this tragedy has resulted in satanic
Speaker 1: panic on social media platforms like TikTok. Got a story
Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to
Speaker 1: say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tangodi
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode
Speaker 1: at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the
Speaker 1: Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Tood. If
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: A love bell lived, a long love and well lived.