1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We talked 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: about the mental health services apps Better Help on the 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: News round Up the other week, which was in the 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: news because the Federal Trade Commissions as the company shared 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: people's personal responses to very personal questions with Facebook and Snapchat, 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: even after their sketchy terms of service said they wouldn't 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: do that. Better Help spokespeople did not admit wrongdoings of 10 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: Pride surprise, but they did have to pay out seven 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: point eight million dollars to about a million people who 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: use their services, including Better Help, but also their apps 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: aimed at specific groups like Pride Counseling for lgbtqu users 14 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: or Team Counseling for youth, and they did agree to 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: stop doing this, so Betterhelp had to pay out an 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: insulting nine dollars and seventy two cents for sharing vulnerable 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: people's sensitive information. Listen, we have been a little bit 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: suss about Betterhelp for a while, and for me it 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: all reached a fever pitch back in twenty twenty one 20 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: after the astro World crowd crush incident in Texas where 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: ten people, some of whom were children, died. The organizers 22 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: announced a partnership with Better Help to provide mental health 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: services to the survivors, which just rubbed me the wrong way. 24 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: So producer Mike and I spoke to doctor Jeff Gunther 25 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: aka Therapy Jeff, one of TikTok's most trusted therapists, to 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: dig into why ten people died, including three children, and 27 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: hundreds more were injured at rapper Travis Scott's Astroworld music 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: festival in Houston, Texas. First Hand video footage on social 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: media shows young people pleading with crew members to stop 30 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: the performance because people in the crowd were unresponsive, but 31 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: authorities say Travis Scott continued to perform for thirty seven 32 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: minutes after Houston police firefighters were called to what had 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: been deemed a mass casualty event. Travis Scott even brought 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: out rapper Drake for a guest appearance as many in 35 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: the crowd screamed for help. It's not clear if Travis 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: Scott knew the severity of the situation, but Scott does 37 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: have a history of inciting crowds into dangerous behavior at 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: his concerts. He's even faced charges for it at past 39 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: concerts and Live Nation. The company behind Astro World has 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: a long history of safety violations. Now the footage coming 41 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: out of the event is horrifying, and because of Travis 42 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: Scott's fan base, this was happening to very young people kids. 43 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I was getting winded, I was using all the energy 44 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: I had left to me, and I came to the 45 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: point where I was accepting my death. In a statement, 46 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: Travis Scott says he didn't know people had died until 47 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: after he'd left his stage. He also announced what he 48 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: called a partnership with the therapy app Better Help to 49 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: provide a free month of therapy to those impacted by 50 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: the tragedy, which on its face may sound great, but 51 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: Better Help has also been called out for its murky 52 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: policies regarding how they use the data of clients and 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: how they treat mental health services in general. Not to 54 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,399 Speaker 1: be clear, I am not an expert on digital health services, 55 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: but doctor Michael Lomato, our show's producer and chief science officer, 56 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 1: is Michael was a psychologist who does research on digital 57 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: health interventions. Any lead the data team that supports digital products, 58 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: which has helped hundreds of thousands of people overcome addiction. Mike, 59 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,399 Speaker 1: can I sit down with Jeff Gunther, a therapist who 60 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: runs therapy Den, a resource to match people with diverse therapists, 61 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: who uses this platform on TikTok to warn people that 62 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: apps like Betterhelp might not be as good as they seem. 63 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: I am Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor. 64 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: So, Jeff, you run a resource called the therapy Den. 65 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: How did this resource come to be? 66 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I'm in a therapist of practice therapists. Since 67 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: two thousand and five, I started a local therapist directory 68 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: in Portland, that's where I live. And the Portland Therapist 69 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: Directory grew and I learned about what therapists are wanting 70 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: or what clients are wanting when they're looking for a therapist. Then, 71 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: back like three or four years ago, I used all 72 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: that knowledge to launch therapy den dot com and it 73 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: was sort of like meant to counter another huge therapist directory, 74 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: Psychology Today. Psychology Today. You might be aware of their magazine. 75 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: You'll find Psychology Today's magazines like in all of the 76 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 2: therapist waiting rooms. One of the things I don't like 77 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 2: about their magazine is that basically over the like many 78 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: many decades that they've been producing their magazine, they primarily 79 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: only have very good looking people on the cover, very 80 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 2: skinny women that are predominantly white, So there's no diversity 81 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: on their magazine cover. And that transfers over to their 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: therapist directory, which is sort of like always rankings number 83 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: one on Google, so they you can't go to psychology 84 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 2: today and find a therapist that is competently trained in 85 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: racial justice, or that is competently trained in treating transgender people, 86 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 2: or for the longest time, you couldn't search therapist by gender, 87 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 2: and they only had male and female gender. So there 88 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: was like I made therapy the Therapy then directory to 89 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 2: kind of like challenge them and force them or encourage 90 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: them to evolve. And psychology today has been slowly kind 91 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: of evolving. I don't think that they totally meet the 92 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: needs of modern clients, but they're doing something about it, 93 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: and I'm happy about that. So Therapy den was sort 94 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: of like, all right, I'm going to try to create 95 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 2: this disruptive force in the therapist directory field, which isn't 96 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: very big, and so that was the main agenda and 97 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: then we can get into it. But like back in 98 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, when like better Help and talks space started 99 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: to become a thing, I was like, oh, okay, like 100 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: they're somebody I need to target as well. 101 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: I know, when I was first looking for a therapist 102 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: a few years ago, I knew that I wanted a 103 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: black woman. And that's partially because I had heard from 104 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: my black girlfriends of these awful experiences of having to 105 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: spend their time in therapy, you know, educating their white 106 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: therapist about things like systemic racism. And I knew that 107 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: I didn't want to do that, but finding a black 108 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: woman therapist for me was incredibly difficult. It was like 109 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: finding a needle in a haystack. 110 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. That isn't how therapy should be. Like you 111 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: should not be spending time that you're paying for to 112 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 2: educate your client or educate your therapist on who you are, 113 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: your culture, your background, the language that you use, where 114 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 2: you're coming from. You know, your religion, and your ethnicity. 115 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: So that's why therapy then was created so that we 116 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 2: can like create like a ton of filters so that 117 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: you can like figure out how you can find a 118 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: therapist that already matches with you in lots of different ways. 119 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: And also I've like taken a stance on like, here 120 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: are a ton of different questions that clients should be 121 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: asking their therapist in the first session. If you're black 122 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: and you're seeing a therapist that's white, you need to 123 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: ask that that therapist like what makes you How can 124 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: you competently treat me? What do you know about my ethnicity? 125 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: How do you feel when if I'm going to talk 126 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: about how racist white people are, Like what do you 127 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: think about you know, the black lives matters, and like 128 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: all the protests and like there's just like hundreds of 129 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: questions that you could ask your therapist to make sure 130 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: that they are a good fit for you. And I 131 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: don't think that a lot of clients know that they 132 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: can like interview their therapist on that first session and 133 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: ask that therapist tell me, like the specific training that 134 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: you've received, talk to me about like the supervisors and 135 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: the consultation groups that you're in. So I know that, 136 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: so that I know that you can competently treat me. 137 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: So that's a whole thing. 138 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that you're giving clients and just people 139 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: the like empowering them with a language and tools to 140 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: advocate for themselves. I love that so you talked about 141 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: your relationship with these therapy apps that have really become 142 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: ubiquitous in the last few years, things like better Help 143 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: and talk Space. You know, when I first heard about 144 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: these apps, they did really seem like an accessible way 145 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: for folks to access like therapists. But so many therapists 146 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: I've heard from do not like these apps. Can you 147 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: tell me why that is? 148 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, but let's start there. Like, you're right, the accessibility 149 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: that these apps have like tapped into it is so 150 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: incredibly difficult, and I wish it wasn't. It's a systemic issue, 151 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: but it's so incredibly difficult for somebody to just like 152 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: find a therapist it's a good match for them. There's 153 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 2: a ton of searching that you have to do. There's 154 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: confusing insurance that you have to like wade through. It 155 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: can be expensive, there's like a ton of roadblocks. So 156 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: many therapists are booked, especially because everybody in the fun 157 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: and world decided to get therapy at the same goddamn time, 158 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: which is totally fine. I get it. I understand. I 159 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: love that you're getting therapy, but therapists are so busy, 160 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: so you're just like you even if you find a 161 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: therapist who is a good match. It's incredibly frustrating because 162 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: they might not have any openings. But then betterhelp Talkspace, 163 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: Cerebral other apps like that have come along and they're 164 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 2: just like, hey, click a button, we are the uber 165 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 2: of therapy. Download the app, click this button, check the 166 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 2: terms of service, don't worry about reading it. It's confusing anyways, 167 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: and we will set you up with a therapist, just 168 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: any therapist. Is it a good match? I don't know. 169 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: We hope so maybe. But like they've tapped into the 170 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 2: accessibility part where it's just like it's so understandable, Like 171 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: people are getting so frustrated, so of course they're going 172 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: to go to these apps, especially like younger people that 173 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: are used to doing that. 174 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is an excellent point that they really did 175 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 3: identif by a true need that exists out there. Of 176 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 3: it's difficult to find a therapist. And we talk a 177 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 3: lot on this show about bad things that the internet 178 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 3: and tech bring to us, but I was talking with 179 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: bridget the other day. One of the things she mentioned 180 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: was how her favorite stories are about the great things 181 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 3: that the internet does to like bring people together or 182 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: help somebody be seen or find whatever it is that 183 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 3: they're looking for, and it really seems like they sort 184 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: of zeroed in on that and it is a real 185 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 3: need that they've addressed it is. 186 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: It's a real need. And on the platforms there are 187 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: actually amazing therapists, Like my beef is not what the 188 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: therapists that are contracted to provide therapy. They are like 189 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: trained to you know, end licensed and they're they're great. 190 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: So yeah, they tap into a need and somebody needed 191 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: to do it. And it's because like because therapists and 192 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: private practice cannot all get their shit together. We're all 193 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: running our own little individual small businesses, so we can't 194 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: all come together and like figure out how to solve 195 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: this problem. It's not just therapists are being to come together. 196 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: It's just like so many layers of everything that needs 197 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 2: to come together in order to fix this. So these 198 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 2: tech companies, which are super savvy, they're the ones that 199 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: did it. So bravo, I hate you. 200 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: You compared these apps to Uber, and you know it's 201 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: one of those things like should getting a therapist, should 202 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: starting the journey to like deal with your trauma, unpack 203 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: your issues? Should that look like an Uber business model 204 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: that we know has so much exploitation, whether it's the 205 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: exploitation of drivers, the exploitation of writer details and writer privacy. 206 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: Should should that relationship mimic uber and I would argue, no, 207 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: it shouldn't. That accessibility is good. The idea of having 208 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: a therapist at your fingertips sounds great, but when you 209 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: actually think of at it harder, you're like, wait, should 210 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: therapy be the same be a similar kind of business 211 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: framework as something like an uber where you can get 212 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: a ride at the push of a button. And maybe 213 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: this driver isn't being treated well and maybe they aren't 214 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: being super careful with my data. Who knows, I don't know. 215 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: The answers might be buried in the third page of 216 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: some you know, murky privacy documents somewhere, like I'm not 217 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: really sure. Should getting into a relationship with a therapist 218 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: really be the same way that it is when you 219 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: just like hail a taxi to your home? 220 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean no, I think not at all, because, like, 221 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 2: you know, if someone's driving you from the restaurant to 222 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: your home, Like, I don't know, I guess that person 223 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 2: can kind of be anybody as long as they're like 224 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 2: good enough, you know, they're not going to bother you. 225 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 2: They're going to like be quiet whatever, they'll they'll do 226 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 2: what they need to do to get you from like 227 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: point A to point B. But when you're looking for 228 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: a therapist, it's not just like are they good enough? 229 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 2: Are they going to like talk to you or listen? 230 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: It's like are they actually qualified to treat you? Do 231 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: they understand on your experience in a like deep way? 232 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: And you need to shop around for therapists and talk 233 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: to multiple therapists in order to find somebody who's a 234 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 2: good enough match. And instead of just being handed one 235 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: like Uber would do, or like talk space or better 236 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: help does so. No, I don't think so, but there 237 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: are apps and tech companies that like understand that Betterhelp 238 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 2: is not doing this well and somebody else needs to 239 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: do it better. So there is like a newer app 240 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: that's I think is maybe just in like Florida or 241 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: Georgia right now, called Hurdle. Have you ever heard of Hurdle? No, yeah, 242 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: it's I just heard about it. And they contacted me 243 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: to like let me know about what they're doing. And 244 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: they contacted me because they're like, hey, can you sponsor 245 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: us on TikTok and I said no, but only because 246 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 2: it sort of like conflicts with therapy done where I'm 247 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: trying to connect people. So it's anyways, I love them 248 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: and what they're doing, what they've started out doing where 249 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: they're like paying therapists, Well we should talk about that 250 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 2: with Better Help, because they're not and they're like making 251 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 2: sure that all the therapists on the platform are competently 252 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: trained in racial justice and social justice and they're transcompetent 253 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: and queer competent, and they're continuously going through trainings and 254 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: so like they're doing it the right way. So there 255 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: are apps and services out there that are starting to 256 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: do it the right way. But Better Help and Talk 257 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: Space they're like these first movers that have amazing marketing, 258 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: especially Better Help and and yeah, so's it might be 259 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: hard to compete with them. 260 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 3: It's interesting that you say that they have better marketing, 261 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 3: you know, because I've looked at your tiktoks and I 262 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 3: think one of the big criticisms is how they harvest 263 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 3: people's data and use it for marketing and advertising. And uh, 264 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 3: you know, I clicked through I read their privacy form 265 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: and yeah, they're just using all of your data, including 266 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 3: your communications with your counselor for third party marketing, and 267 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 3: so it made me wonder, like how much of their 268 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 3: business model is actual therapy delivery and how much are 269 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 3: they an advertising company? 270 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: Exactly? Yes, they get so much amazing personal data on 271 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: your mental health information, who you are, when was your 272 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: you know, are you suicidal, when was your last suicide attempt? 273 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: How much money do you make? Uh, where do you live, 274 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: what are your pronouns? What's your sexual orientation? Uh, what's 275 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: your gender? Like there's They get the most detailed information 276 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: about how much, how often you're talking to your therapist, 277 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 2: if you're meeting your therapist goal, if you're married, counseling goals, 278 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: like so much stuff incredibly valuable. I don't know like 279 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: how much money they make off of it, or if 280 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: they make any money off it, if they're making all 281 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: of their money off of that, but they that information 282 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: is incredibly valuable, and they did. They were a little 283 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: bit more clear a few months ago when I made 284 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: one of my first TikTok videos about them and going 285 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: through their privacy policy about like all the information that 286 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: they collect. Since I sort of like exposed them and 287 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: it got, you know, over a million views of their 288 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: like privacy policy, and they've changed their privacy policy to 289 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: make it so much more vague and so much more 290 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: confusing and actually gives them so much more leeway when 291 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: it comes to like sharing your data. They can share 292 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: your data with their corporate partners. Do you know who 293 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: their corporate partners are? Fuck? No, who the fuck knows? 294 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: I have no idea. They don't list them. They can 295 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: share it with their ad network. You know who's in 296 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: their ad network? I have no fucking idea. Probably a 297 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: ton of people. They can. They can use it for 298 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: marketing purposes and whatever the hell they want to use 299 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: it for. So we don't know why, what they're using 300 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 2: for exactly, We don't know who they're sharing it with, 301 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: we don't know how much money they're making off of it. 302 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: And the only way that you can use their app 303 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: is if you check off the terms of service, which 304 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 2: like allows them to use all this information. I would 305 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: love it if they gave you an option to not 306 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: like sell your data on my HBO Mac subscription. There's 307 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: a little checkbox that says, are we allowed? Can we 308 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: like use your third party data? And I can just 309 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: be like, nope, better help doesn't do that And why 310 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: would they ever do it because they're probably making a 311 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: ton of money. 312 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: Something else that I'd like to mention is that you 313 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: know they're able to sell your information to third parties, 314 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: and so if they sold your information to a company 315 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: like Facebook, then you think about all the different data 316 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: that we know that Facebook is able to collect, combined 317 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: with whatever they have from your your relationship with your 318 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: counselor through better help, it becomes clearer. Just like we're 319 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: not talking about little bits and pieces of data. They 320 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: really can and mine and harvest a real composite like 321 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: portrait of who you are and sell that for profit. 322 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: And I just fundamentally believe that that is not how 323 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: a relationship with a mental health specialist should look. And 324 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: to me, there is not another word for that other 325 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: than like exploitation. And like I guess, I really see 326 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: it as this kind of capitalistic mining of the most 327 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: sensitive stuff about us so that corporate interests can get 328 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: better pockets. And it's just so depressing and demoralizing. 329 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: Oh god, it is, it really is. 330 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break er back. So you might 331 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: be thinking, what about HIPPA, the Health Insurance Portability and 332 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: Accountability Act, a law that created national standards to protect 333 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: patient health information from being disclosed without consent. Doesn't HIPPA 334 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: prevent our health information from being used to sell things? 335 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: In this case, the answer is not really. Our producer 336 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: Mike works with health information, and that means he spends 337 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: a lot of time dealing with hippap Here's what he 338 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: had to say. 339 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 3: I work within the constraints of HIPPA every day, and 340 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 3: I think it's probably one of the most misunderstood laws 341 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 3: in America. People think HIPPA protects all of their health 342 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 3: information all of the time, but it doesn't. HIPPA only 343 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 3: applies to a very narrow set of actors and circumstances. Basically, 344 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 3: it applies to healthcare providers and their contractors. Better Health 345 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: is neither of those things. In a page on their 346 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 3: website convincingly titled online therapy Services, are they legit question mark, 347 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 3: they repeatedly use phrases like HIPPA compliant therapists. What they 348 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 3: don't say is that the therapists are bound by HIPPA 349 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 3: because they're providing healthcare. But better Health the platform is not. 350 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 3: Because they aren't providing healthcare. They're simply connecting you with 351 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: the providers and so they are bound only by the 352 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 3: terms of service by creating an account. HIPPO was signed 353 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 3: into law in nineteen ninety six, around the same time 354 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 3: Bill Clinton was describing the Internet as an information super highway. 355 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 3: It's authors never imagined all the ways the Internet would 356 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: revolutionize how we access healthcare. And so we've come to 357 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 3: this place where most Americans believe their private health information 358 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 3: is legally protected, but that's just not always true. In reality, 359 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 3: many of the digital services we use have no greater 360 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 3: legal obligation to protect information about our health than information 361 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 3: about what TV shows we like to watch or what 362 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 3: types of sneakers we want to buy. So the question is, 363 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 3: are we okay with for profit tech companies like betterhelp 364 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 3: setting the precedent around privacy and digital health services because 365 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 3: that's where we're at. 366 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 2: And one of the questions that I get all the time, Yeah, 367 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: because you're right, they know you intimately, like so many 368 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 2: things about you. And the question I get is like, 369 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: how is this not a hip of violation? What is 370 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: making this okay? So if you are my client and 371 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 2: you're seeing me in my private practice, I'm your therapist, 372 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: all the notes that I write on you is actually 373 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 2: your property. That's all yours. You can go to your therapist. 374 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: You can be like, give me my notes, and a 375 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: therapist legally has to hand that over to you. That's 376 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: all of your medical information we need to give it. 377 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 2: So if my client came in and was like, Jeff, 378 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 2: give me all of the notes that you've been keeping 379 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 2: on me, and I give it over to them, they 380 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 2: could take all of those all that mental health information, 381 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 2: and they could sell it to an advertiser. They can 382 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: give it to Facebook. As a client, you can do 383 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 2: whatever you want with your medical information. And that's what's happening. 384 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: When you sign up for Better Help. You're saying, Okay, 385 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: all of the information that I'm providing to this therapist 386 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: is mine, and now I'm giving it to you Better Help. 387 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 2: You can do whatever you want with it. So that's 388 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: another way that they're able to get around it. And 389 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 2: so one of my big things was like, oh, you know, 390 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 2: I can fuck over Better Help if I can like 391 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: go to the state licensing boards in all of the states. 392 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 2: I'd start with like California and New York and be like, Okay, 393 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: y'all therapists are seeing these clients and they know that 394 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: the client information that we like ethically legally have to 395 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: keep confidential is being given to Better Help and given 396 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: to like advertisers. Should these therapists be allowed to provide 397 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: therapy on Better Help? Should these therapists be disciplined or 398 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: have their license taken away? Not that I want to 399 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: get those licenses taken away, but maybe I can put 400 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: pressure on Better Help. And the problem is is that 401 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: like what I just mentioned, it's the client information and 402 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: they can hand it over. There also is somebody something 403 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: in Hippa where like Hippo's just like everything has to 404 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: say confidential unless maybe it's used for marketing purposes and 405 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: it's anonymoused, so like they also have that like gray area. 406 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 2: There's so many things that are detecting Better Help. 407 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 3: It seems though that like stepping back to harvest all 408 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: of this personal information about somebody's mental health and then 409 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 3: use it to make advertising revenue, it just feels. 410 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 2: Wrong, right, like oh there's that. Yeah, it just doesn't 411 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: sit well. It just doesn't feel okay. That shouldn't be 412 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: happening obviously, like abows your therapistness, anonymizing your info and 413 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 2: selling it to advertisers. I would lose my license and 414 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: I should that just shouldn't be a part of the 415 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: therapy process. But we're in this like funky, weird, shitty 416 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 2: capitalist whatever time where like that's okay, and they're incredibly 417 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 2: protected and they're going to probably continue to do that. 418 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,719 Speaker 2: And betterhelp is you know, they interacted with me a 419 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: little bit by like leaving some comments on some of 420 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: my TikTok videos, and now they have there just ignoring me, 421 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 2: which is probably a very good business decision on their 422 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: because like, who the fuck am I? 423 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you did like your tiktoks had an impact 424 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: when you were describing how they changed their you know, 425 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: their privacy policy. For a hot second, I thought you 426 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: were going to say they saw, you know, because of 427 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: my tiktoks that got millions of views and they changed 428 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: their privacy policy for the better. But then it was like, oh, 429 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: they just made it even more vague. 430 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 2: No, because of me, I made it worse for everybody 431 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 2: by like pointing this out. They're just like, cool, we 432 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: need to be real fucking shady now, So you're welcome, America. 433 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: When I saw the news out of Texas, it had 434 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: a really deep impact on me in a way that 435 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: I almost can't even articulate why. There was something about 436 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: the videos that were coming out of it that just 437 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: really hit me in a way that you know, you 438 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: think that you're desensitized to tragedy and disaster, but something 439 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: about those videos really stuck with me. And I think 440 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: seeing like the live stream with an Apple logo on it, 441 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: where I knew that young people were facing really scary circumstances, 442 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: I really can't shake the deep disturbed way that that 443 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: how disturbing that was to me, Like I don't know 444 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: why I've not been able to sort of like move 445 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: past it, but I have not. And when I woke 446 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering with 447 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: Better Help, that really it just seemed like a cherry 448 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: on top of this exploitation cake where these young people 449 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest ways 450 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: for profit, to make money for corporate interest, whether we're 451 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott, the organizer's Apple streaming platforms, whatever, 452 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: and then in the aftermath of that horrific traumatic tragedy, 453 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: what they were being offered was just another way to 454 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: serve them up to be further mined and exploited and 455 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: it was like it broke my brain. I couldn't even 456 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: conceptualize the debts to how broken so many systems are 457 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: where that's the thing they're being offered and even still 458 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: one month of it, so it's like it's already shitty 459 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: what they're being offered. But it's not even that long. 460 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: Some of these kids probably have like complex PTSD. It 461 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: takes longer than a month to treat that. What were 462 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: your thoughts on that partnership? 463 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, garbage. I thought it was a dumpster fire. I 464 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 2: thought it was. I felt the same way that you felt. So, yeah, 465 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: it's like a bunch of you know, corporations creating trauma 466 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 2: and then sending those traumatized kids to Better Help where 467 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 2: they're going to like mine their data and make a 468 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: ton of money. It's it was disturbing, it was upsetting, 469 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 2: and it reminded me of when Better Help used to 470 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: I still think they kind of do this, but back 471 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: in like twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, they were going to 472 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: all the therapist directories out there that attract, you know, 473 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: the clients that are looking for therapists, and they're just 474 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 2: trying to like either buy them up or quote unquote 475 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: partner with them in order to like take all of 476 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: their business and like direct those those users into the 477 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 2: Better Help ecosystem. And so they approached me when I 478 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: like launched therapy then and they're like, hey, can we 479 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 2: go ahead and take like therapist profiles and add them 480 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: to your directory so that if any of the people 481 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 2: that are using your directory that you know, find they 482 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: could like find one of our Better Help therapists and 483 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: then create services or create you know, start therapy with them. 484 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: And every time somebody signs up for Better Help through therapy, 485 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: then will pay you three hundred dollars, which is a 486 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: ton of money. And because they're like, you could potentially 487 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 2: make eighty thousand dollars a month because we've like made 488 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 2: had this deal, created this deal with other therapist directories 489 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: that are the same size as yours. And I know 490 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 2: those therapist directories and I know the owners and some 491 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 2: of them are buddies of mine, So I was like 492 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: talking to them about like what went on, and those 493 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: therapist directories were like basically taken over and just used 494 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 2: as like a funnel in order to like you know, 495 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: get even more people to sign up for Better Help. 496 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: So you don't really own your therapist directory anymore. They 497 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: just sort of like take it over because they put 498 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 2: thousands and thousands twenty thousand different like therapist profiles or 499 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 2: something like on on your directory. And it's also like 500 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 2: therapy done is about like matching people with like a 501 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 2: good competent therapist that you know is a good fit, 502 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 2: and Better Help can't do that at all. It's a 503 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: therapy mel So it didn't feel okay, it allow would 504 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 2: lose control, Like it just didn't feel like a good 505 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: match at all. And I like started to That's when 506 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 2: I started to like really learn about their privacy policy 507 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: and the data mining and shit like that. And I 508 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: would imagine that like all the marketing that they do 509 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: that Better Help does, and all the podcasts and NPR 510 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: and shit like that, all of those companies are probably 511 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: getting like a very nice kickback because Betterhelp was like, Hey, 512 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: on average, we make twelve hundred dollars, we bring in 513 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: twelve hundred dollars. When somebody who signs up for Better Help, 514 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: we are very much willing to like pay you three 515 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: hundred dollars when we collect twelve hundred dollars. Also, we're 516 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: going to pay the therapist. Shit so like it's not 517 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 2: even like we have like too much of an overhead cost. 518 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: You talk about how the therapists are just not only 519 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: are they not paid what like like a comparable amount 520 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: that they can make in private practice or elsewhere, but 521 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: also you know they're I learned from your tiktoks they're 522 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: sometimes paid by the word, and so once they hit 523 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: their work out, they kind of have to decide if 524 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: they want to continue treating a client who very well, 525 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: maybe in crisis, basically out of the goodness of their 526 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: heart because they care about this client. For free, clients 527 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: can access their therapists twenty four hours a day, seven 528 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: days a week, which sounds really good in theory. But 529 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: then you're like, should you have access to a therapist 530 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: twenty four to seven I would say no, that maybe 531 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: you should have some boundaries around how you access your therapist. 532 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: It's kind of stunning to hear about how much money 533 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: they must be taking in via how much money gets 534 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: spent gets given to their actual therapists who are doing 535 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: the work of the stating this platform. 536 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, one, I mean that the therapists are getting maybe 537 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: around thirty a little less than thirty dollars an hour Ideally, 538 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: if you're a therapist and you're seeing clients who want 539 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 2: to get at least one hundred dollars an hour, that's 540 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: what we're aiming for, if not more if you live 541 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: in more expensive cities. But but our help is like, 542 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 2: we will pay you up to fifty dollars an hour 543 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 2: if you work more hours per week. So if you 544 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: work up to fifty hours a week, you'll get our 545 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: top pay, which is fucking bonkers. I don't even understand 546 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: why that's a pay scale that exists. Like, work fifteen hours, 547 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 2: get thirty dollars or less an hour, work up to 548 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: fifty hours a week more, I don't know. That's the 549 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: whole fucking thing. I hate that. And then it's they 550 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 2: pay you based on word count, so you can't go 551 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: over the word count that they like provide if you 552 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: do start like providing more support, if you start texting 553 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 2: more support and going over the word count, you're working 554 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: for fucking free therapists. They're not going to pay you 555 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: for it. So maybe they're paying you thirty dollars an hour, 556 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 2: but it's actually a lot less if you like feel 557 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: like you need to give even more support to that client, 558 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 2: and of course, just like uber and Lyft or whatever, 559 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: like you're not getting benefits. You're a contract. You're not 560 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 2: like getting paid time off, you know, like you have 561 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: to provide all of your equipment, you know. So it's 562 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 2: just like it's a bunch of bullshit that therapists are 563 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: getting exploited, and they're able to exploit these therapists that 564 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: are usually like fresh out of grad school or just 565 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: looking for a little part time work or something, And yeah, 566 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: twenty four hour access to a therapist clinically no, not okay, 567 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: that's not creating self reliance. You need to be able 568 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: to kind of like go and do your thing and 569 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: then be able to check back with your therapist. I 570 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: understand why that's appealing though, but imagine under stand that 571 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: that therapist with a caseload of like ten twenty thirty, 572 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: forty fifty clients a week, You're they're getting pinged all 573 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: the fucking time. So there's no way that a therapist 574 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: is able. But like a therapist must have to it's 575 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 2: in their contract that they have to respond within twenty 576 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 2: four hours, no matter what day or time it is, 577 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 2: which is not very realistic. Plus there's this like thing 578 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: where like if there's if betterhelp has like a flood 579 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: of people signing up, They're like, Okay, I know that 580 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: you have a ton of clients, but will you take 581 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: these new clients? Will pay you more for these new clients, 582 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: which sort of incentivizes therapists to drop their old clients 583 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: that they're not getting paid enough for in the first place, 584 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 2: to then take the new clients. It's such a stupid, 585 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: fucked up system. I hate it. Can you tell? 586 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: It's so fucked up? And this is not how therapy 587 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: is meant to be. This is not how it should 588 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: look to access mental health care. And you know, in 589 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: the wake of the astront World thing, it's like it 590 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: is a it's an exploitation layer cake where the clients, 591 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: the potential clients, are going to be exploited, the therapists 592 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: running the side are being exploited. Everybody's being exploited except 593 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: for the tech overlords who like are possibly like making 594 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: money from the people that are being referred from this tragedy. Honestly, 595 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: talking to you has helped me make sense of why 596 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: it made me so deeply, deeply angry and disgusted, like 597 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: I had such a visceral reaction. Also just the use 598 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: of the word partnership, like, you know, using this tragedy 599 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: as a branding opportunity. I really found it deeply, deeply, 600 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: like just disgusting, and I think talking to you is 601 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: really made it so clear that yeah, that wasn't that 602 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: was it. I was almost about to say, like an 603 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: irrational response, that was a rational response, because it is 604 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: really fucked up, but it is really disgusting. 605 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very rational response to a very irrational 606 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 2: thing that's occurring. 607 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 3: Totally, You've described all these numbers of like caseloads of 608 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 3: forty or fifty patients a wee, Which like, what a joke. 609 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 3: How can you be providing like high quality of care. 610 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,719 Speaker 3: I haven't heard you say anything about like the evaluation 611 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 3: process or you know, any sort of quality controlled do 612 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 3: you know if they do, Like I just have to 613 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 3: imagine that the quality of care that patients are receiving 614 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 3: is pretty low with a caseload like that. But is 615 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 3: that something that they look at or measure or talk about. 616 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. I've never 617 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 2: come across any sort of like data or survey about 618 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: the quality of care, So I don't know, And I 619 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 2: just feel I feel bad for everybody involved. I feel 620 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: really bad for the therapists that are getting burnt out, 621 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 2: that are kind of like forced to work longer or 622 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 2: more hours. And this is I don't know, I don't 623 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 2: know if I can say that, Well whatever, maybe we'll 624 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 2: head it out. But there's can you say that if 625 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: you want to. You're somebody that's seeing a better help 626 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: therapist and you really like like your therapist, because there's 627 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 2: a ton of really great therapists on there, and this 628 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 2: conversation is upsetting or disturbing you. If you wanted to 629 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 2: ask your better help therapist, if they have their own 630 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:21,720 Speaker 2: private practice and they are accepting clients, then that's something 631 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 2: you can ask them and you can talk to them about. 632 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 2: The better help therapists obviously are not allowed to be 633 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 2: like out of private practice. If you want to see 634 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 2: me there and you know, even pay me, if you like, 635 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 2: pay that therapist the same amount that you're giving better help, 636 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 2: then what their hourly rate has doubled or tripled, you 637 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 2: know by that time. So so, because I get a 638 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 2: lot of feedback like, oh but I love my better 639 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: help therapist. Let stick with that better help therapist. I'm 640 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 2: so happy for you. Also, maybe you can see them 641 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 2: in their private practice and get out of like better 642 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 2: Help if you want to. I think I can say that. 643 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure. 644 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's good if vice, because it sounds 645 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: like you're being so clear that you're not trying to 646 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: say that better Help doesn't have great, kick ass therapists 647 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: on the platform, but that the platform itself does not 648 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 1: support these therapists to giving the best quality of care 649 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: that they can, and so there might be other ways 650 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: to access that same therapist that you might love who's 651 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: on Better Help in a way where they're not being 652 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: sort of set up to give you not as good 653 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: of care as you could be getting otherwise. 654 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 3: Right exactly, And your therapists in their private practice probably 655 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 3: won't sell all your personal mental health information. 656 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 2: Most likely they are not going to do that. 657 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into 658 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: it now. I'm not the only one who has a 659 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: problem with Better Helps partnership with Travis Scott. In the 660 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: wake of the Astro World tragedy. The response has not 661 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: been good, and Betterhelp is working overtime to correct what 662 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 1: they're calling misinformation about their platform. Now, it's worth noting 663 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: that Better Help waited until the partnership got negative reactions 664 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: online to clarify pretty basic details about the arrangement, frankly, 665 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: making patient protection seem like kind of an afterthought. They 666 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: released an FAQ where they say that people who use 667 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: the free month of Better Help services will not be 668 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: billed after that month is up, and they say that 669 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: Travis Scott isn't making any money from the partnership. Now, 670 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of tech company corporate devil speaking 671 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: my day, and I'd like the company to clarify whether 672 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 1: this also pertains to any business or philanthropic entities Travis 673 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: Scott might be affiliated with. They also answer the frequently 674 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: asked question, is information members enter on Betterhealth ever sold 675 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: to advertising platforms or third parties? Now they answer this 676 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: with an emphatic no. Period. That can't be the whole 677 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: story because on their own privacy policy, in the section 678 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: called purposes for which information is used, they say your 679 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: information may be used to quote personalized website experience, including 680 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: targeted offers and ads throughout our websites, third party sites, 681 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: and via email or text message. They also say quote, 682 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: we may share your information with any subsidiaries or parent 683 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: companies within our corporate group. So who are these other 684 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: companies in their corporate group and what products are being advertised? 685 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: Is Better Health using your personal mental information to buy 686 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 1: ads or sell ads? Why rely on such vague language 687 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 1: when discussing something as important as our health and privacy? 688 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 1: I believe Better Health is intentionally exploiting vague language and 689 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 1: gray areas and their privacy policies to mislead the public, 690 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: which under normal circumstances is bad, but it's especially egregious 691 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: to do that after a tragedy. Do you feel like 692 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: the public it's owed a little bit of transparency about 693 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 1: this partnership. I feel like, especially given that the folks 694 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: who were at that festival are like a lot of 695 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: them are young people. I feel like it is a 696 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: public like a public good for Better Help and or 697 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: Travis Scott to say, hey, we're doing this therapy, this 698 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,240 Speaker 1: therapy partnership for folks who were impacted by this tragedy. 699 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,439 Speaker 1: Here's who's making money on it, Here's how your data 700 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: is going to be used. You know here, like whether 701 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: Travis Scott, Better Help or both are making some sort 702 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,839 Speaker 1: of like cut or kickback. Do you feel like it's 703 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: in the public interest for us to have that information 704 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: in a transparent way. 705 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yes, And like in my most recent 706 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 2: TikTok video that's on Twitter and everywhere else, I'm saying that, 707 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 2: like what's going on, Like, let's be clear here who's 708 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 2: getting paid? Uh do how do you continue care after 709 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 2: that one month? How much is it going to cost 710 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 2: in order to like continue? Like there, it's just also murky. 711 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 2: So yeah, I would love if there's more transparency around. 712 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 2: But the way that better help operates is just like 713 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 2: they're very good at like making shit real vague, and unfortunately, 714 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 2: whenever I push against them, or anyone pushes up against them, 715 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 2: they just get even more vague and more vague and 716 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 2: get into that gray area. So hopefully this will like 717 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 2: get more people to become concerned and ask them to 718 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,479 Speaker 2: be more transparent about what they're doing and the deal 719 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 2: that's being set up. 720 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: Travis Scott, Yeah, I just feel like we're in this 721 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: age where things that technology that is meant to be 722 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: like a wellness focused thing or a mental health focused thing, 723 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: we're in this weird gray area where everything feels kind 724 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 1: of scammy and like not really regulated, and so we 725 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: have all of these apps that are sort of mental 726 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: health ish or like wellness ish or like medical care ish, 727 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: and you just have to add, like are these regulated? 728 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: Are they safe? Am I actually getting good information from 729 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: like a competent trained medical health professional. I wonder, like, 730 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: do you feel the same way that we're in this 731 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: sort of wild West where there are so many tech 732 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: platforms offering us wellness or you know, medical care, but 733 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 1: in this very gray area way where they can sort 734 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: of avoid having to answer some of these questions about 735 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, the quality of care that you're actually getting. 736 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. And they're so savvy, they're so slick, 737 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 2: they know exactly what they're doing, so you just kind 738 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: of like give this like these ish services and it 739 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 2: works well enough. And also you know all these like 740 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 2: podcasts or MPR whoever, like it's such a good look 741 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 2: for them. I'm like, oh, therapy, you know, like it 742 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 2: looks like there. It's so nice to quot unquote partner 743 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 2: with them because it sort of like lifts their brand up. 744 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,919 Speaker 2: You know, so it's just like this feel good, lovely thing, 745 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 2: but we don't know what's going on like right behind 746 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 2: the scenes, and MPR, fuck you, MPR. They're like I 747 00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 2: hate that MPR. It's like running ads all over the place. 748 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 2: I mean it's all over Oregon with like NPR and 749 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 2: OPB over here where there's just I'm constantly hearing Better 750 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 2: Help and I'm emailing NPR and Oregon Public Procects. I'm 751 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 2: like letting them know, like I want to be on 752 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 2: your show. This is not okay. If you understood the 753 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 2: values of this company, you would have a fucking aneurysm 754 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 2: about it. But like they're not responding to me and 755 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 2: they're not doing anything about it. So it's this weird 756 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 2: like halo effect that happens when they do partner with 757 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 2: these Better Help and like, yeah, no, yeah, I don't know, 758 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 2: I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying, so yeah, yeah, 759 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 2: And it's. 760 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: I mean, you've said a mouthful. And I know in 761 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: the podcast space specifically that Better Help has a It's 762 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: like one of those ubiquitous brands that you hear if 763 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts, you've definitely heard of Better Help ad. 764 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: And I have, you know, friends and colleagues who I'm 765 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: sure do Better Help ads. And I'm not trying to 766 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 1: like call anybody out, but I also feel like you 767 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: have to take a little bit of responsibility for the 768 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: cop for like not so it's not just a financial 769 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: arrangement where they pay you and you read the ad. 770 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: But if you sound like you're endorsing their their values 771 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: and endorsing their practices, and if you're using your like 772 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: MPR voice to make this service seem really good and 773 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: progressive and like a good like a good idea, like 774 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: I do think we have to step back and ask 775 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,879 Speaker 1: some hard questions of ourselves about whether or not we're 776 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,399 Speaker 1: allowing brands whose values do not align with our own 777 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: to be kind of brandwa washed by our like you know, 778 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: slick podcaster voice or you know, or be like the 779 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,240 Speaker 1: relationship that podcast listeners have with the with their hosts 780 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: right like I feel like it like it exploits the 781 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast host to 782 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: make these to make brands that are not so good 783 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 1: seem like they're actually aligned with their values. 784 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 2: I guess mm hmm, you said it totally. I keep 785 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 2: on saying it. But like Betterhelp one of the best 786 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 2: marketing teams I've ever seen. They're so good and they 787 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,280 Speaker 2: know exactly when to turn off their comments on TikTok 788 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 2: videos because like they are, Oh, they're totally fucking off 789 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 2: because like all the TikTokers are just like, whoa, we 790 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 2: don't like this. This isn't like thank you Jeff for 791 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 2: like being transparent and like like explaining their privacy policy. 792 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 2: We're going to spam all their TikTok videos and you can't. 793 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,879 Speaker 2: They block everybody, like they know how to turn all 794 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 2: that shit off. So yeah, I think podcasters and everyone 795 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 2: with their NPR voices like really need to think about 796 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 2: And also, like I guarantee all these podcasters are not 797 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 2: getting their therapy through better help, Like no way are 798 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 2: they actually doing that. So yeah, I agree. 799 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 3: It's interesting you mentioned the you know, the halo effect there, 800 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 3: and you know this moment that we're in where there 801 00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 3: are all these potentially scammy ish mental health services and 802 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,240 Speaker 3: it's like mental health it's only sort of recently become 803 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 3: a thing that we all are talking about and acknowledging 804 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 3: as like something that needs to be dealt with, but 805 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 3: it's still like a very private personal thing. And I 806 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 3: wonder if that like contributes to the viability of scams 807 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 3: like this what you know, maybe it's a scam, maybe 808 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 3: it's not. But like when an actor is going to 809 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:34,839 Speaker 3: participate in delivering mental health services but not respect that 810 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 3: like privacy piece of it and just you know, completely 811 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 3: violate those norms in pursuit of profit. It's a pretty 812 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 3: dangerous tech enabled place. 813 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 2: One of the good things is that it's sort of 814 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 2: like breaking its mental health stigma is is like reducing 815 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 2: So that's also one of the things that's like a 816 00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 2: good thing that's happening. But at what cost because there's 817 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 2: like so much information and data sharing and like ads 818 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 2: being directed more towards you because of this. So like 819 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 2: yay for accessibility, yay for like the stigmatization, but like 820 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 2: this is like profiting these huge tech companies so much, 821 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 2: and it's so upsetting and it's so disturbing, and we 822 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 2: need to talk even more about it. 823 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,319 Speaker 1: H Well, I mean so we we we don't fuck 824 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 1: with better health, but as we know, like it can 825 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: be so hard to get accessed to with therapists, So like, 826 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: what are some alternatives to services like better Health that 827 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,839 Speaker 1: might be a little less scammy, uh and exploited it 828 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 1: If folks out there want to access mental health services 829 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: but don't know where to start. 830 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:52,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm biased, but I love therapyn dot com. Uh. 831 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 2: Start there. There's another therapist directory that I am in 832 00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:00,959 Speaker 2: love with, Inclusive Therapists dot com. Uh the same sort 833 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 2: of vibe and mission and values as therapy den dot com. 834 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 2: The thing is is, like you kind of have to 835 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 2: be okay or understand accepting of the fact that, like 836 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 2: this is going to be a journey for you. Finding 837 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 2: a therapist is going to take some time. And the 838 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,799 Speaker 2: reason it's going to take time is because you need 839 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 2: to find somebody who's a really good match and who 840 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 2: can competently treat you. So you're gonna have to like 841 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 2: interview three, four, five, ten therapists possibly to like find 842 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 2: somebody who's a good match for you. It's grueling and 843 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 2: it sucks and I don't like it. But starting a 844 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,719 Speaker 2: therapy don dot com, Inclusive therapist dot com even just 845 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 2: like googling somebody you know, like trying or going to 846 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 2: Psychology Today dot com to like go through their therapist directory, 847 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 2: find a therapist that's in private practice. You'll like the 848 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 2: quality of care is through the roof compared to the 849 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 2: quality of care that you get from betterhelp, just because 850 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,719 Speaker 2: the way the betterhelp is like set up, So have 851 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 2: some patients. Really educate yourself. Ask all of the questions 852 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 2: that you want, like how can you compident competently train me? 853 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 2: What's your background? But also like if you want, you 854 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 2: can be like are you married? Do you have kids? 855 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 2: Are you from this city? Where do you hang out? What? 856 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 2: What do you think about? Like who's your favorite sports team? 857 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,319 Speaker 2: Do you garden? Whatever the fuck you want? Like are 858 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,279 Speaker 2: you like ask all the questions. Therapists don't have to 859 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,839 Speaker 2: answer all these questions, but I want you to ask 860 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,239 Speaker 2: all the questions that will make you feel more comfortable 861 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 2: talking to that therapist. Ask them like do you diagnose? 862 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,440 Speaker 2: What do you think my diagnosis might be? What is 863 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 2: treatment going to look? 864 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 3: Like? 865 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 2: Are you cool? Whatever you need to do? So you 866 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 2: need to start therapyded dot com wherever the hell you 867 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,719 Speaker 2: want to start, and then understand that you have to 868 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 2: like go on a journey. 869 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,680 Speaker 1: Honestly, if it was not for your tikto, I would 870 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,799 Speaker 1: not have known any of this, Like, I don't think 871 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,319 Speaker 1: there's a lot of resources out there to help people 872 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: understand companies or platforms like betterhealth and so I'm so 873 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,960 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you're making the content that you 874 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: are because I think that you're helping people take ownership 875 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: over there, or you're empowering people to advocate for themselves 876 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,319 Speaker 1: and take ownership over how they access these services. And 877 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,319 Speaker 1: so I'm so grateful for you. Where can folks keep 878 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: up with you? 879 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can look for search for Therapy then 880 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 2: on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram. I am also I 881 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 2: produce a podcast called Swoon Love Lessons with Julian Gina. 882 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 2: So Julian Gina are sex therapists and experts and every 883 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:48,880 Speaker 2: now and then I'll hop on and be on a 884 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,479 Speaker 2: podcast episode with them. So you can find me there 885 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 2: talking like given love advice. I'm an amazing at giving 886 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 2: love advice. So so that's where you can find me, 887 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,160 Speaker 2: and you can personally email me at Hello at therapy 888 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:06,880 Speaker 2: dot com if you have any questions. 889 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,840 Speaker 1: The Astra World disaster has turned into a hotbed of 890 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,240 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. In our next episode, we'll hear from researcher 891 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: Abby Richards about why this tragedy has resulted in satanic 892 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 1: panic on social media platforms like TikTok. Got a story 893 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to 894 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,920 Speaker 1: say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tangodi 895 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode 896 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,759 Speaker 1: at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the 897 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 1: Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production 898 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,240 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. 899 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,800 Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado 900 00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,400 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Tood. If 901 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us 902 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,799 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out 903 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,759 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. 904 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:06,760 Speaker 1: A love bell lived, a long love and well lived.