1 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene with 2 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: David Gura. Daily we bring you insight from the best 3 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: of economics, finance, investment, and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance 4 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot Com, and of course 5 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg. Well, there was a lot of commentary 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: during the campaign, during the period between the campaign and 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: the inauguration about how the presidency changes in individual how 8 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: someone might change when he gets into that role. Lane 9 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: Camark has studied this closely. She's a senior Fellow and 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: Government Studies at the Brooklyn's Institution, the author of a book, 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: Why Presidents Fail and How They Can Succeed Again. She 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: joins us this morning from our studient, Bloomberg ninety nine 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: one Studios in Washington, d C. Let me ask you, 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: first of all, just about the roll of storms here. 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: Let me let me stick with the news. There have 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: been presidents throughout history who have been shaped by natural disasters. 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: When you when you look back at history, how big 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: a turning point have storms been for presidents of the 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: United States A line, Sometimes they've been big. The biggest one, 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: of course, was was Katrina for President Bush because the 21 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: response was so bad and so chaotic and so inadequate. 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: I think that if the response is adequate, if people, 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, get their money, if people's lives are saved, etcetera, 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: then I think it doesn't have much impact on a president. 25 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: But boy, oh boy, don't screw it up. That's that's 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: the lesson of Katrina for President Bush. After the election, 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: Tom and I would talk frequently about the the reread 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: which events can change, they can pile up. A president 29 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: has to deal with what is that, what is unexpected? 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm just looking back at these last six seven months. 31 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: How have things piled up? And how has this president 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: done dealing with so many things on so many different fronts. Well, 33 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: he's been so erratic that I'm starting to think of 34 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: him as President Chaos US. He you never know what 35 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: he's gonna do. Um. I I admire, for instance, the 36 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: decision he made last week with um Nancy Pelosi and 37 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer, but it threw his own party into chaos. 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: He seems to be hell bent on making enemies in Washington, 39 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: particularly enemies of his own party in the United States Senate, 40 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: which is a little bit mysterious given that there is 41 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: a a investigation into his campaign that looks to be 42 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: quite serious. And given that the only people in Washington 43 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: or anywhere that can remove a president are the members 44 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: of the United States Senate. Uh, this president doesn't behave 45 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: in rational ways. Chapter six of your book, Why Presidents Fail, 46 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: which is refreshing whatever anybody's politics is, is the buck 47 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: doesn't stop here. After all, how much do we yearn 48 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: for Harry Truman. I think we do yearn for Harry Truman, 49 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: But I think we are yearning frankly for a normal 50 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: president and we have this president is not that? Was 51 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: President Obama normal president? Well, I was going to say 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: that part of the reason for the book is that 53 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: both Presidents Bush and Obama, in other words, our first 54 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: two presidents of the twenty one century um had certain 55 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: problems in being president, the biggest one being that they 56 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: were enamored of communication at the expense of implementation. They 57 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: seem to keep campaigning and keep talking and keep talking 58 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: without paying any attention to the government that they run. 59 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: And the problem with this is that, of course Americans 60 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: see the president, for better or for worse, as the 61 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: CEO of the federal government. So when it screws up 62 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: big time, like when there's a terrible response to Katrina, 63 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: when the websites crash and and fail, as they did 64 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: with Obama's healthcare, when the government screws up, the president 65 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: gets the blame. So that I think has been that's 66 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: been a problem of the twenty one century. Good history lesson. 67 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: Let's come back on and mark with us with the 68 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: Brookings Institute a really interesting it's it's a it's a 69 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: brief read, a hundred and pages, but I'll tell you, folks, 70 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: it's got some real pop to it. Why presidents feel 71 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: and how they can succeed. I guess that sort of 72 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: sums up the theme. There was some reporting over the 73 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: weekend about the U. S. Korea Free Trade Agreement, something 74 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: the President has been outspokenly against, and the reporting was 75 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: that John Kelly, the new White House Chief of Staff 76 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: still new White House chief of Staff, played a big 77 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: role in keeping that deal from being scuttled by the 78 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: White House. Makes me one about the role of the 79 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: chief of staff in shaping the president. Elanemark joins us now. 80 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: She's senior Fellow Government Studies at the Brooker's Institution, author 81 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: of the book Why Presidents Fail and How They can 82 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: succeed again. John Kelly was brought on elane and was 83 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: much ballyhood. He's going to be trying to rein in 84 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: this intractable president. How how successful has he been doing 85 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: that low these few weeks in And when you look 86 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: back at history, what role have chiefs of staff playing? 87 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: Chiefs of staff are always important, and they've gotten more 88 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: important as the job of the president has gotten more 89 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: and more complex. I think we can all remember that 90 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: TV shot of John Kelly's face uh dropping dramatically as 91 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: the President went off in one of his unscripted and 92 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: highly inappropriate responses to the march and the tragedy in Charlottesville, Virginia. 93 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: So he's he's having his challenges, to say the least, 94 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: holding this president in line. Um, I think he's probably 95 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: doing as good a job as can be done. And 96 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: there may be a little bit of learning on the 97 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: part of this president that his freewheeling style has actually 98 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: been hurting him. So we'll we'll see. But this is 99 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: maybe the toughest job I've ever seen a chief of 100 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: staff have for a president. Oh, I guess I'll wishing 101 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: for James Baker to show up again. Yeah, we are 102 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: Baker tell me about Brookings in the thought on a 103 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: resurge in Congress. One of the hopes and prayers here 104 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: where the events, and particularly with Schumann Pelosi on the couches, 105 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: McConnell screamed, is the idea that Congress finally takes over 106 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: legislative power that was given up decades ago. Does Brooking 107 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: see any hope to that? Yes, we see a lot 108 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: of hope to that, because, in fact, one of the 109 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: things that I've predicted will happen given this sort of 110 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: chaotic nature of this presidency, is that power will move 111 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: away from it and towards Congress. We already saw that, ironically, 112 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: with the failed attempt to craft a replacement healthcare bill, 113 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: most of that action was taking place in the Congress, 114 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: not in the White House. The President himself was really 115 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: uninvolved in that, and while they failed, I think that 116 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,239 Speaker 1: if you were looking for details on a potential plan, 117 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: you had to look at Congress. I think the same 118 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: thing is happening now with tax reform, that the action 119 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: is in Congress, the shape of the plan is um 120 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: coming together. In Congress. You do have a little bit 121 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: more White House involvement because you have a fairly talented 122 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: economic advisor Gary Khane in there. But the bottom line 123 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: is when you have a president like this president, who 124 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: has no experience in this in this world, and has 125 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: no policy depth, it is natural that power is going 126 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: to move back to the Congress, particularly with complex legislation. 127 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: What have you you learned about the bully pulpit as 128 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: as occupied by this this president? I would advance here 129 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: that you can learn more by what he when he 130 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: doesn't say something than than what than when he does. 131 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: There have been big events where he hasn't tweeted or 132 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: he hasn't spoken out. What can we learn from how 133 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: he aproaches that that platform. I think he approaches that 134 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: platform when he is interested in shoring up his base. 135 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: The amazing thing about this president, and I've written before 136 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: about other presidents that I think they're too obsessed with communication. 137 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: That communication is the great um fallacy of modern presidents, 138 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: because in the end we end up not caring what 139 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: they say, we end up caring what they do. Uh. 140 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: This president, however, seems to be communicating primarily to his base. 141 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: And you see this in the poll numbers. He has 142 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: a group of loyal supporters in the country, but he 143 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: has a group of loyal supporters in the country. But 144 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: what he doesn't hasn't done as president is he hasn't 145 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: expanded his base, and I think that's dangerous for any president. Elaine, 146 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: thank you so much, greatly appreciated. Elaine comarc with Brookings 147 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: Institution and of course book Why Presidents Fail. And there's 148 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: a lot of debate. I mean, David, the shift from 149 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: September to a December debate is tangible, isn't it. Yeah, 150 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: I mean it does. It does free up some some 151 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: breathing space here for for lawmakers. I think there is 152 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: the sense that we're going to be doing this once 153 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: again here in just a couple of months time. But 154 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to watch this week certainly. How how 155 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: that freeing up this is this kind of olive lief 156 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: extended by the olive branch, extended by the Democrats, might 157 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: change the calculus there on Capitol Hill. Over these next 158 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: few weeks, there were September elevens, and yes there was 159 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: a day before September tenth. But what there was is 160 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: our next guest mentioned earlier on Bloomberg Television. There were 161 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: the five weeks afterwards where the world sort of stopped 162 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: and John Miller. Then New York did what New yor 163 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: work has done since sixteen what seven or I mean, 164 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: there's been many other times where this city on the 165 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 1: map has picked itself up, and you have lived that 166 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: in real estate at Miller, Samuel, what's a single real 167 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: estate thing that you think of when you think of 168 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: a resurgent downtown. Well, I think of the massive increase 169 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: in activity and pricing just over the last sixteen years. 170 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: One of one of the things that you know, I 171 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: think during the five or six week period, as you 172 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: mentioned after nine eleven, nobody no knew. Everybody's looking over 173 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: their shoulders, what's going to happen? Um, And then we 174 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: saw a bidding war, a five what a four way 175 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: bidding war on a on a an apartment in midtown 176 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: one bedroom and UH, and the market clicked back on. 177 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: So I think that was pretty amazing. And then then 178 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: the other thing was just if you look back and 179 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: all the development and the improvements that have been made 180 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 1: in Lower Manhattan, the median price in Lower Manhattan, which 181 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: would be Battery Park City in the financial district largely 182 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: UH grew over the last sixteen years. Somewhere in the 183 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: neighborhood of three and fifties or cent, which is double 184 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: what Manhattan as a whole increase which was about a 185 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: hundred seventy in terms of pricing, which I think is 186 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: pretty much a testament, as you said to to the city, Well, 187 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: remember the debate over the site itself, what was going 188 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: to be built there, what it was gonna going to 189 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: look like when you look at the area surrounding, and 190 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: how much of that was was held back as those 191 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: deliberations that went on. Well, you know, I think, what 192 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: what's the biggest takeaway from me of sort of that era, 193 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: and then what we ended up was with was the 194 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: initial intention was to build with their liberty bonds. There's 195 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: there's the original intention was to build rentals to rental development, 196 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: and is that market has always been very transient, in 197 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: other words, much more of a neighborhood as opposed to 198 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: UH seven residential market, and so a lot of Class B, 199 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: Class C office buildings that were past their prime were 200 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: converted to residential, and then the second wave ended up 201 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: being a lot of condominium development. And many of the 202 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: neighborhood groups have been really pushing that market to transition 203 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: to not be so heavily reliable on rentals and go 204 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: to make it a seven neighborhood. Does this neighborhood have 205 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: a sense of of itself yet doesn't know what it is? 206 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: You mentioned its history as a place predominantly of office spaces. 207 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: Now I go down to Battery Park City and it's 208 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: replete with families. It's tons of families. Yes, UM doesn't 209 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: know what it wants to be. Is it's still evolving? 210 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: Do you think? I think it's still evolving, but I 211 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: think it knows what it wants to be. I think 212 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: it wants to be much more of a seven mixed 213 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: use with a lot more residential than it than it 214 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: has been. One of the things you know, you know 215 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: as you walk the promenade of Battery Park City, UM, 216 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: you know near the near the site the UH. Prior 217 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: to this catastrophe, most of the condominiums that were built 218 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: are conceived in that area where one bedrooms and now 219 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: it's much more about family apartments. How's the retail doing? 220 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: I mean, one of our producers, Karen Brickinnon, dropped thousands 221 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: of dollars this weekend effect check. We fact checked. He 222 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: was the guy coming through the door, were like eight bags. 223 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: He looked like the wonderful Lake Joan rivers on another 224 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: shopping I can't verify that. It's like there's there's two 225 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: developments right. Well, you know, one of the things that 226 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: that the area was known for was initially right after 227 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: the event, was this tourism place to pay your respects. 228 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: And really what's happened is there's a tremendous amount of retail. 229 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: You have to remember, um, you know, hundreds of thousands 230 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: of square feet were lost with the towers. That was 231 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: a huge shopping resource for living there, and uh, that 232 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: has really changed. It's really expanded and so um there's 233 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: a there's a nightlife, and there's a lot of retail. Now, 234 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: retail generally is having issues relative to maybe where it 235 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: was a few years ago, just like most of uh, 236 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: most large metro areas with the onset of you know, 237 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: online ordering and things like that. But but it's pretty impressive. 238 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: It's it's almost like a new a new neighborhood. What 239 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: I think of retail in that area, think the Brookfield 240 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: Place is kind of absurd. Mall a beautiful place. But 241 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: if I want to go buy a par of socks 242 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: would cost me a hundred dollars. What does that say? 243 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: About retailing this city overall, it's very it's very high end. 244 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: There are we seeing when you look at the health 245 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: of retail, that's where things are doing, all right. So 246 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: so one of the things that has been sort of 247 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: used to describe the downtown market is that it essentially 248 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:14,359 Speaker 1: accelerated gentrification. Um all this development because land, even with incentives, 249 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: is still very expensive, uh relative to the outer borrows. 250 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: So a lot of the product that has come in, 251 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: whether it's rental or for sale, has been skewed towards 252 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: the say, upper half of the price range uh, relative 253 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: to Manhattan. So that's part of the reason why we've 254 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: seen such a big jump in the median even with 255 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: the media and there's spent such an influx of higher 256 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: end development that that's that's part of and and that 257 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: in the time that we've got with you, uh this morning, 258 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: help us with the overall rental market. Is it still 259 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: a dearth of inventory out there? Uh So, So it 260 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: depends on the it depends on the segment of the 261 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: market that you're talking about. Um, if you're really talking 262 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: about the upper five of the market we're talking I 263 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: feel like I feel like he's pumping you for information. 264 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: On his own rentals for mere mortals. Uh. The the 265 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: rental market is exceedingly tight at the bottom, meaning the 266 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: entry level. If you split the market into three segments, 267 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: nothing has changed over the last year. The bottom third 268 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: or the the entry is there is no supply uh 269 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: and or I shouldn't say no, but it's very limited. 270 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: And the middle is a little bit more but still 271 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: very tight. And the upper end is still soft. Um. 272 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: But we're seeing a little bit of improvement, but still 273 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: very soft relatively. Is Brooklyn The new Brooklyns are different 274 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: new Brooklyn because Guram moved there and everybody's moving on. Well, 275 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: where's the new Brooklyn. Well, I used to say Queens 276 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: is the new Brooklyn. Now I'm saying Bronx is the 277 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: new Queens. Uh. That's my order by a one bedroom 278 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: in Charleston up in Boston, you know, the new g 279 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: e the boom of Biotech. I feel like you know 280 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: where Charleston is, right, Yeah, But I feel I feel 281 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: like there's no good answer because I would you got 282 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: that right, because you would be passive about it. I mean, 283 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: one of the one of the challenges. Now it's not 284 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: all cash. One of the challenges, you know, nationwide in 285 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: urban markets has been uh, the overbuilding of high the 286 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: very high end rental everything weather Brooklyn right. See how 287 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: he assumes the daughters slipping into a high end. This 288 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: is why, this is why there's no upside to me 289 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: answering his question, but butular joining us my phone next 290 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: time you have a thumb for the realtors listen. We 291 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: got a huge audience of realtors that listen to us 292 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: for the realtors listening. Is it going to be a 293 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: thumb up fall thumb up into the holiday season? Well, 294 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: from the signs are we saw in the summer, which 295 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: you know August is the weakest month of the year. Um, 296 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: we did see a little bit of an uptick. So 297 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: I think that the takeaway for me is that fall 298 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: this year is probably going to be about the same 299 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: as last year, not much different. Maybe a little bit 300 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: more activity, but not much. Thank you for not making 301 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: a choice on Charleston versus Cambridge. Make a note, Mr Miller, 302 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: sometime in February, John Miller will be a little bit 303 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: after the coast Miller Samuel's John Miller, and wonderful to 304 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: have John Miller with us as we look back sixteen 305 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: years to you know, and I gotta admit, David, I 306 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: always felt New York would boom off of that horrific 307 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: tragic but a lot of people, public and private officials 308 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: driving Downtown New York City forward. It is about an 309 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: economic resiliency, about the recovery of downtown and really, for 310 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: that matter, how a system works. He has been a 311 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: student of the system for his entire year, his exceptional 312 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: economic academics on information, things we see and things we 313 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: don't see, but also on international economics as well. Joining 314 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: us from Gary, Indiana, of course, Columbia University, Joseph Stiglets, 315 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: Professor Stiglets, wonderful to speak to you on this September eleven. 316 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: What is it about capitalism that clears markets and makes 317 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: people recover? Well, it's it's in a way, the prices them, 318 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: the incentives. Uh. Uh, there's a shorty to housing, so 319 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: people build housing. The The other question you want to 320 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: know is what in peques At? Why does it happen easily? 321 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: Why is there a need for government? The answer typically is, uh, 322 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: people have had their lie. It's ruined. They don't have 323 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: any money and they can't borrow. Uh. And you ask, well, 324 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: why didn't they put away money, why didn't they buy insurance? 325 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: And the reason for that is markets don't work very well. 326 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: Uh and uh so it's a wonderful instinct of showing 327 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: that when uh, you say, when the crunch comes down, 328 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: people don't really rely on markets. They rely on government, 329 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 1: rely on government to make sure that the damage has mitigated. Joe, Joe, 330 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: if if President Trump called upon you to be Chairman 331 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: of the FED, would you accept? Uh? Yes, I think 332 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: I would. And the answer is you're serving the country. Uh. 333 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: It's not who appoints you. Uh, it's the management of 334 00:20:53,680 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: monetary policy is a very important uh function. What worries 335 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: me is that he won't be looking for the person 336 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: who will serve the country. Well, he'll be work looking 337 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 1: for the person who is most loyal to him. Uh. 338 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: And so ex loyalty rather than confidency. Uh, with a 339 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: dose of ideology that will be thrown on, thrown in 340 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: on his case. Pro Fessor stig Let said, just to 341 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: too short with you this morning on the September eleven, 342 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: which we mark all these moments of silence, let me 343 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: ask you about a piece that you've written here for 344 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: Project Syndicate. I urge everyone to take a look at it, 345 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: reflecting on what we saw in Texas and Louisiana after 346 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: Hurricane Harvey and what we're seeing now in Florida. What's 347 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: what's your takeaway as an economist as as somebody who 348 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: studies public policy, how should we begin to make sense 349 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: of what's happened there? What's the takeaway for you? Well? Uh, 350 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: I think there's so many takeaways. One of them is, UH, 351 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: it was a weather related event, UH, what we call 352 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: an extreme event, and the uh increased occurrence of these 353 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: extreme events has been predicted by science and the devout 354 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: of climate change. And so here you have a part 355 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: of the country where there are a large number of 356 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: climate deniers. You have a president who who is at 357 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: least ambivalent about climate change, if not a climate denier. 358 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: Refuge left Paris, and we are suffering as a result 359 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: of h this climate change. Uh. In the early days 360 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: of climate change. UH, many people are always going to 361 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: affect poor countries in the south. UH. Not a country 362 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: like the United States. That was wrong. It's very clearly 363 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: affecting the US. Sticklets, thank you so much, Professor Stiglets 364 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: a Colombia, and we greatly appreciated tweet out that his attendant. Yeah, yeah, 365 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: the Project Syndicate article was quite good. Good. Joe Stickletts 366 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: time with us is been with us through a financial 367 00:22:51,320 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: crisis and also political crisis as well. For our next 368 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: guess here, Kurt Andersen and thank all our guests for 369 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: their flexibilities. We mark these moments of science. They Curty 370 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: has prepared a new guide to what he calls fantasy 371 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: land in American which facts are subjective things and seemed 372 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: to matter less at less. He is one of our 373 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: great quotes. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're 374 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: not entitled to your own facts. Moynihan, way out front 375 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: of the last two years. Talk to us a bit 376 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: about how you approached this project. You go way back 377 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: here before the founding of this country. What is it 378 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: that's particularly American about this, this phenomenon of treating facts subjectively. 379 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: I thought you were about to say you go way 380 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: back before President of Trump, But no, I do go 381 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: back to the very beginning the first European settlers. Well, 382 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: I mean in the very beginning, of course. We had 383 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: two groups of settlers, uh from England who came to America, 384 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: one in the South who thought, despite all evidence of 385 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: the contrary that we're gonna find gold and get rich overnight, 386 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: didn't died, kept coming, didn't died, kept coming for twenty 387 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: years until they decided tobacco better idea. In the North, 388 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: we had essentially the most some religious villots, the most 389 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: the most zealous, extreme sub subset of a of of 390 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: the Puritans um who came here deciding they were going 391 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: to start a theocracy and a Christian utopia and wait 392 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 1: for the Second Coming. And and so you know that 393 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: that that that was our birth as a as a 394 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: as a European American country. And and it kept going, 395 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: the combination of extreme religious belief, uh kind of free 396 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: for all Charlatanism, of various stripes, and just the the 397 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: it's it's the there's a lot of good side to 398 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: this American idea of oh, we can do anything, we 399 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: can believe anything, we can become anything, we can pretend 400 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: where anything, and of course that is part of what 401 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: made us great. But U eventually the balance between that 402 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: and the reality checks got a bit out of way. 403 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: How did you begin to to think about these issues? 404 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: In particulars A wonderful passage in the book in which 405 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: you go back to the Jonathan Edwards sermons citters in 406 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: the hands of an angry God. You're reacting to it. 407 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: You do the same thing with the Salem witch trials 408 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: as well. It's it's almost sort of what you're you're 409 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: thinking as you read the words on the page. How 410 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: long had this been percolating for you? It percolated in 411 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: lots of UH streams for a long time. I had 412 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: written about um sort of the entertainment takeover of everything 413 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: I've written about, the how creationism was moving into the 414 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: public schools. Lots of strands were things I've been writing 415 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: about and thinking about for years, and I've been writing 416 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: novels about some of this stuff. I wrote a novel 417 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: set in the eighteen forties in which I learned a 418 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: lot that that became useful for this history that I've written. 419 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: So but it was really around two thousand and twelve 420 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: thirteen when when it seemed to be coming to a 421 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: head and I thought, Wow, maybe maybe I have a 422 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: theory UH that connects all these things. And then I 423 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: began my research and we could go for like three 424 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: hours on any number of journalism. I want to come 425 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: back with UH Kurt Anderson and talk about really the 426 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: extraordinary inference of Spy magazine and what they did with 427 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: President Trump a million years ago. And of course we 428 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: must talk about the path forward for Vanity Fair, which 429 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: has had such an impact on society as well. Kurt 430 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: Anderson with us in support of Fantasy Land, How America 431 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: Went Haywire? To be direct, it must read we are 432 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: seven minutes away from another moment of silence, this flight 433 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: seventy seven. I let David introduce that into the Pentagon 434 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: with us, Kurt Anderson, David Gross saying we have to 435 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: talk to Kurt about his book. And even worse is 436 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: I was wrong and say, yeah, yeah, another media book. 437 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: Who gives it? Damn Well? Guess what Fantasy Land? How 438 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: America Went Haywire? A five year history back to the Romans. 439 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson, UH, with this really a timely book. You 440 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: have four citations in your index on September eleventh. How 441 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: did you fold this horrific national event into your fantasy Land? Well, 442 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: because part of what I describe as the fantasy land 443 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: and as the takeover of of UH and legitimizing of 444 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: untrue beliefs among Americans is what happened in terms of 445 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories after the nine eleven attacks and this 446 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: rise of the so called Truther movement, which, among other things, 447 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: in addition to being UH like so many absurd conspiracy 448 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: theories absurd, uh and and awful, UM showed that conspiracy 449 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: theories we were had partisans on the left as well 450 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: as the right. While people on both sides UH still 451 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: pursue that idea that eleven was an inside job, it 452 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: really it had real traction on the left initially. You know, 453 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: it's a long history, as Tom says that they're in 454 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: the title of the book, but then the at the 455 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: creation of the Internet and the communities, they're in hugely 456 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: important here to how we've gotten to where we are today. Absolutely, 457 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: I mean and and again it's five years that there 458 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: were steps along the way in national character pieces and inclinations. 459 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: But and and and the nineteen sixties play a big 460 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: role in my history. But absent absent the Internet and 461 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: and the infrastructure it provides for untruth, I mean, I'm 462 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: not sure we would I don't think we would be 463 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: where we are today. It was, it was an essential 464 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: step in this perfect storm. You mentioned truthiness. When when 465 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: Stephen Colvert comes out with that with that neologism and 466 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: Karl Rove quotation as well about realities and our sense 467 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: of realities, how much of that is mirrored through history? 468 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: In other words, was that putting a name or putting 469 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: a face to something that had been existing for a 470 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: very long time. It had existed for a very long time. 471 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: The idea of truthiness, which if you haven't heard it 472 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: since two thousand five, when the first episode of the 473 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: Colbert Porto, it's amazing how well it holds up. And 474 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: it's about no, I feel the truth, forget books. I 475 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: feel the truth. That's a very American idea from from 476 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: the beginning. Um. And and so it does go back. 477 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: I don't. Until fairly recently, the establishment, the hated mainstream establishment, 478 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: kept a kind of uh balance, kept a tamp down 479 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: the truthiness as a ruling paradigm. You mentioned a forty 480 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: and of course the thing about Kurt Anderson that's so 481 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: important as you always deliver history when you're thinking about 482 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: where we are right now, I mentioned, uh, Tommy Lee 483 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: Jones with Daniel day Lewis in Lincoln and how's a 484 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: time where Congress was in charge even with the Civil War. 485 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 1: The executive wasn't the executive like today. Do you have 486 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: any belief that we can get back to Thaddius Stevens 487 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: and Tommy Lee Jones with that terrible to pay Um, Well, 488 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: those aren't real, those are active speaking of fantasy land, No, 489 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: I mean the idea of part of I think of 490 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: our dysfunction in Washington is how it relates to what Well, 491 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: one of the ways it relates to what I'm talking 492 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: about in fantasy is that the leaders in Washington are 493 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: so driven by this tail wagging their dog, which is 494 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,719 Speaker 1: just a cable news and the rest. So I you know, 495 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: I don't. I am not overwhelmingly hopeful. Kurt Anderson were 496 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: this is fantasy and we want to come back and 497 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: talk to the state of media here with Mr Anderson 498 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: in a moment. Of course, all of it fired up 499 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: within New York City certainly, and even Los Angeles. What's 500 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: going on, Vanity fair. The images are tangible on this 501 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: September eleven, David Girl. Let me do the one on 502 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: the left, which is New York City. The police officer 503 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: attending behind is two kids who were children sixteen years 504 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: ago with images of the people they lost, reading off 505 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: the names here end again the image of the names 506 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,959 Speaker 1: around one of the fundation pools as well. Yeah, and 507 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: the the image on the right. We're looking at all 508 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: these screens in the studio. Here crowd gathered outside the 509 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: Pentagon just outside of Washington D C. Memorial there with 510 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: benches and trees moral inside the Pentagon as well. The 511 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: President the First Lady have just arrived there. They took 512 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: the motorcad over from the White House. Now about thirty 513 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,959 Speaker 1: minutes ago we watched they observed a moment of silence 514 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: on the south lawn of the White House. We'll soon 515 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: see something similar here outside the Pentagon. It will be 516 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: interesting to see. Of course, we have had the great 517 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: fortune particularly with Atmos Travitas and with General kimmitt perspective 518 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: on the military, and and certainly David. One of the 519 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: backdrops here is a Pentagon that it appears we'll get 520 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: a lot more funding on a percentage of proportional basis 521 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: here in the coming months. Indeed, the Senate Arm Services 522 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: Committee scheduled to take up the appropriations bill, I think 523 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: this week, a storied process that usually goes well into 524 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: the evening. This is something that Senator John McCain has 525 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: been overseeing and re and ears uh not many people 526 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: in Washing talking about regular order, but that is still 527 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: a vestige of of the old Washington. The debate over 528 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: defense funding. We call them now simply by their flight numbers. 529 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: Flight seventy seven was American Airlines Flight seventy seven. It 530 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: was from Dulls. I think we forget that that this 531 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: was a plane that went out to the west and 532 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: did a U turn and came back to the east. 533 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: And of course all of these flights different, but with 534 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: all a great tragedy and a tragic ending as well. 535 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: We go to the moment of silence. Now at the Pentagon, 536 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: they are now rising. As a president walks in. I 537 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: can see the media and the distance attending the crowd assembled, 538 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: and then between them and that wall of the Pentagon 539 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: that we all remember are the dignitaries with officers standing up, 540 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: and I assume in the distance the President to come 541 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: in and will get an image of President Trump in 542 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: a moment here from the cameras in David Police, we 543 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: see the Adam, we see the electron. I'm not sure 544 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: if the President is scheduled to speak. He certainly didn't 545 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,959 Speaker 1: do that at the White House, but we'll be listening 546 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: in here outside the Pentagon again, as you said, the 547 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: President making his way to the front of that memorial. 548 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: We're five behind the burial h on this September four, 549 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: maybe five uh of of a band in the background 550 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: upon a stage, if you would, with the shot from 551 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: the distance in New York, the bell will ring here 552 00:33:45,360 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: as well, Ladies and gentlemen, the Chairman of the Joint 553 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: Chiefs of Staff, General Joseph F. Dunford Jr. So this 554 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: from Washington, Ladies and gentlemen of defense. Well, they're bringing 555 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: the dignitaries up on stage now. This is of course 556 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: General Dunford of the Marine Corps, Chairman of the Joint 557 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: Chiefs of Staff. I'm sure there'll be other of the 558 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: senior officers, perhaps General Miller and Edwald Richardson will join 559 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: as well, and of course waiting for the President. We're 560 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: unsure if the President will be speaking. We'll see if 561 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: he makes comments. We know who's speaking in New York, 562 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: and it is the Pagetory, I guess for a more 563 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: emotional word of people of the families and loved one 564 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: speaking of those that were lost sixteen years ago. With 565 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: a Fire Department or NYPD officer standing behind that symbolism continues. 566 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: Mrs Trump taking the stage with the President at the Pentagon, 567 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and 568 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: Secretary Matters standing behind. Uh, David, it's it's good. It's 569 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: good to see, gentleman, the only now face of all David, 570 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: Why don't you pick it up? Please? I'm just gonna 571 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: listen in here as the Pentagon faces. President faces the 572 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: Pentagon here on the eastern side of that building where 573 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: that plane struck now sixteen years ago, broad stripes and 574 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: rights toss through the peril last fight or the harm 575 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: parts we watched was so god a learnt ly streaming 576 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: and the rock cats, red claft palms bursting in air 577 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: gave proof through the night. Thought our flock was still there? 578 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: Oh say to's that's tosspankklet panner yet wave or the 579 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: lad and of the Free and the home of the brave? 580 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: Where does it all? This all this end? We we've 581 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 1: seen this transition that you describe. But in the book, 582 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: is it something that's now ingrained in the American fabric 583 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: or or is it something that could could be changed? 584 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: Could could the notion of truth changed? Yet again? Um? 585 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: I my, my, my, hope. I can't become optimistic to 586 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,359 Speaker 1: some fake degree. I am an optimist by nature. But 587 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: I think the best we can hope for, after studying 588 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: this for a few years and writing it through and 589 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: thinking it through, is that we are at peak fantasy land, 590 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: that that it doesn't get any worse that that for 591 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: a variety of reasons. For some people, um, the spectacle 592 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: of a president um issuing falsehoods uh and embracing falsehoods 593 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: and conspiracy theories might be a chastening moment. For others, 594 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: it can be any number of things, not getting seeing 595 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: people not vaccinating their children, whatever it is, believing in 596 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: crazy conspiracy theories concerning the nine eleven attacks. So I 597 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: think it's possible that we reality based people can can 598 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: gather together and put our flags in the ground and 599 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: and say this is not going to go further, and 600 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: that this will be as bad as it gets. That's 601 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: what that's that's my greatest sop, the idea that it's 602 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: going to go back to the establishment being control and 603 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: and and and everybody, not everybody having this a shared 604 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: version of reality and a shared set of facts. I think, uh, 605 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: I think that train has probably left this lastly, here, 606 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: it just seems like you talk about consensus. Reality verifiability 607 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: is a huge issue here. Who who defines or governance 608 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: what facts are has gotten kind of messed up, and 609 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: it's gotten messed up in lots of ways. I mean, 610 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: I would say the cultural left heat it up starting 611 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: in the sixties, but the cultural and political right has 612 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: taken it to the moon, uh in the last generation. 613 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson with this here in Bloomberg eleven. Theoristue the 614 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: author of the the new book fantasy Land, How America Went Heywire, 615 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: A five your history, of course. He's the host of 616 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: Studio three sixty, the radio programming podcast as well. Tom, 617 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and 618 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whichever podcast 619 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom Keene. David 620 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: Gura Is that David Gura? Before the podcast? You could 621 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio.