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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. We're gonna have a discussion

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Speaker 1: about a case that is so horrific. And it's not

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Speaker 1: just a case, it's several cases that just the mere

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Speaker 1: thought of will certainly give you pause when you begin

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Speaker 1: to think about what's going to happen to me when

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Speaker 1: I die. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.

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Speaker 1: I am so pleased to welcome back to body Bags

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Speaker 1: my buddy Dave Mac, investigative reporter with Crime Online. What

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Speaker 1: a day for you to come back. The cases we're

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Speaker 1: going to be discussing today, it would make stronger men

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Speaker 1: certainly faint, I would think, and something you probably didn't

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Speaker 1: think about when you got the call from me. Joe,

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Speaker 1: It's great to be back. I really appreciate the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to be here with you. First of all, every time

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Speaker 1: around you, I learned something that is totally foreign. You know,

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Speaker 1: something I didn't even know. I didn't no kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: But when I found out we were going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about a funeral home, what happens after we passed

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Speaker 1: from this world to whatever one believes is next. And

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Speaker 1: we all have different feelings about that. I've told you before.

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Speaker 1: My wife she believes in, you know, mausoleum, having that

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Speaker 1: place to go to visit the dead. I am of

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Speaker 1: the mindset it doesn't mean much to me. But if

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Speaker 1: I found out somebody was doing something with my body

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Speaker 1: after I was gone that I didn't say they could do,

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Speaker 1: I would have a problem with that, A big problem,

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Speaker 1: and I think most people do. I think we have

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Speaker 1: an understanding that we live on this earth. We have

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Speaker 1: certain rights that we expect while we're alive, and we

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Speaker 1: have certain beliefs in when we die. Finding out that

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Speaker 1: somebody could do something to a loved one after they

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Speaker 1: are gone, that really grinds my gears and something I

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Speaker 1: didn't see coming, Joe. Most people, you don't give it

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Speaker 1: a second thought. Most of the time. The word victim

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Speaker 1: gets thrown around a lot nowadays. But can you say

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Speaker 1: victimize the dead? Perhaps? I think in the cases we're

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Speaker 1: going to discuss today, you're victimizing family. Let me ask

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Speaker 1: you this, Joe. A person dies, and at that point

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Speaker 1: we know that a body gets picked up and they

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Speaker 1: get taken somewhere, and after all the legal stuff, whether

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Speaker 1: it's an autopsy or whatever, that they end up at

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Speaker 1: a funeral home. What is the purpose of a funeral home?

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Speaker 1: Where do we begin in the process of the dead body.

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Speaker 1: Funeral homes have not been something that have been part

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Speaker 1: of the human story forever and ever. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you're into the Civil War and history, there are those

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Speaker 1: images of the transportable embalming service that they had during

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Speaker 1: the Civil Wars. The first time you actually saw it.

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Speaker 1: Because these battlefields were so distant, people began to get

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Speaker 1: used to having bodies embombed and that just wasn't the case.

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Speaker 1: And the reason was these battlefields were so far away

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Speaker 1: the bodies had to make it back to families to

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Speaker 1: be buried. We hear about mummies and all that stuff,

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Speaker 1: but that's elite stuff. For the common everyday person. Funeral

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Speaker 1: homes and that sort of thing, we're kind of a luxury, certainly,

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Speaker 1: the preparation of a body, and in order to do that,

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Speaker 1: you have to have a facility that is certified, that

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Speaker 1: is bonafid, that falls within the legal parameters of whatever

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Speaker 1: state you're living in, that's going to take care of

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Speaker 1: the remains and take care of them in an appropriate manner.

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Speaker 1: When you look at it from a familial standpoint, you're

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Speaker 1: putting a lot of trust into the hands of these

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Speaker 1: people that come to your home. If you have a

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Speaker 1: loved one that passes way at home, and it might

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Speaker 1: be reportable to the corner, but the corner releases. We

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Speaker 1: just call it releasing from the scene from a medical

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Speaker 1: legal perspective. The funeral home will take the body back

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Speaker 1: and then begin to prepare the body according to the

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Speaker 1: family's wishes. And then you have bodies of individuals that

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Speaker 1: passway hospitals, it's kind of the same thing. The bodies

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Speaker 1: will be removed from the floor from the emergency room

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Speaker 1: and taken and when I say floor, I mean removed

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Speaker 1: from the med searge floor or wherever they are being

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Speaker 1: treated ICU, and be placed in the morgue at the hospital,

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Speaker 1: and then a funeral home will come and remove the body.

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Speaker 1: That's actually how I got my start. I was working

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Speaker 1: as a morgue attendent in a hospital. The bodies will

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Speaker 1: be removed from the morgue by the funeral home and

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Speaker 1: taken and be prepped. Either they're going to be buried

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Speaker 1: or they're going to be cremated. There's a third option

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Speaker 1: that many people probably heard of, but they're not completely

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Speaker 1: aware of. And that is an anatomical donation, and that

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Speaker 1: does happen. It happens with some frequency, and each state

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Speaker 1: has an anatomical board. Bodies will be donated by families,

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Speaker 1: and they'll be sent to medical schools and they're used

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Speaker 1: for gross anatomy examinations to teach medical students based at

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Speaker 1: human anatomy. Not like reading in a book or dissecting

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Speaker 1: some animal like you did in biology class in high school.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about actually doing a detailed dissection and a

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Speaker 1: gross anatomy lab at a medical school, and many times

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Speaker 1: bodies are donated for those purposes. Hey, when you say

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Speaker 1: gross anatomy, you're not talking like, oh gross, I mean

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Speaker 1: that's an actual medical term. Right. When you hear gross

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Speaker 1: anatomical dissection, you're talking about an overall dissection, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to say, if you're doing a microscopic examination where you're

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Speaker 1: looking at a very specific item. Gross anatomical dissection essentially

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Speaker 1: means that you have a sample or a specimen before

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Speaker 1: you and you begin the dissection at that point in time.

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Speaker 1: It happens not only from a teaching perspective, but if

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Speaker 1: someone goes into the hospital and they have a tumor removed,

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Speaker 1: or if they have a limb that is amputated, that

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Speaker 1: will be grossly dissected by the pathologist at the hospital

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Speaker 1: to try to understand the disease that this person is

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Speaker 1: suffering from. If I want to donate my body to science,

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Speaker 1: I can make that clear, this is what I want,

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Speaker 1: right yeah, and they'll do it. But you can't then

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Speaker 1: turn around and say, hey, I know Dave mac had

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Speaker 1: a lot of weird stuff going on with him. When

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Speaker 1: he dies, we're going to take it. You can't just

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Speaker 1: decide I'm going to take this body and not that one, right. No, No,

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Speaker 1: you can't. And that's why these decisions are left up

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Speaker 1: to families. I mean, you can pre prepare, and people

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Speaker 1: that decide that they want to make an anatomical gift

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Speaker 1: of their mortal remains can do it, and they do

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Speaker 1: it prior to death, and all of this is set

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Speaker 1: up in advance. And interestingly enough, and I'm not here

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Speaker 1: to advertise for anyone, but I've had several people ask

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Speaker 1: me because I teach forensic science, and specifically in forensic science,

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Speaker 1: I teach medical legal death investigation, have people that ask me, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'd really like to donate my body to the body

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Speaker 1: Farm at the University of Tennessee. Now, if you've done

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Speaker 1: any study in forensics, you know what goes on up there.

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Speaker 1: It's the study of essentially decomposing remains. So people will

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Speaker 1: donate their body to be in a natural environment where

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Speaker 1: it will be studied as it begins to break down.

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Speaker 1: So there's any number of ways that bodies can be

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Speaker 1: donated and utilized after death. Oddly enough, it was the

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Speaker 1: Casey Anthony trial where many of us hurt about the

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Speaker 1: body Farm in Tennessee for the very first time because

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Speaker 1: they were able to scientifically utilize the smells, odors and

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Speaker 1: things like that that they were able to use at

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Speaker 1: that trial as they were researching what could have been

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Speaker 1: in the trunk of a car. Fascinating stuff, but still

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Speaker 1: that's something that you or your family has to decide

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Speaker 1: that nobody else gets to make that call. This has

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Speaker 1: to be either you doing this prior to death, or

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Speaker 1: it has to be your family making a decision on

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Speaker 1: your behalf at that point in time according to what

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Speaker 1: they believe your wishes were, because sometimes that does in

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Speaker 1: fact happen. For that purpose, you begin to think about

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Speaker 1: if you can donate your whole body. Is it possible

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Speaker 1: that your body can be piecemealed? Why would your body

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Speaker 1: be piecemeal? That is, parts of your body be taken

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Speaker 1: and donated, and in certain circumstances that of course can't happen.

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Speaker 1: And I think that goes to what we're talking about today.

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Speaker 1: When I hear the term donation, all kinds of thoughts

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Speaker 1: come to mind. I think about helping people most of

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Speaker 1: the time, but you think about in a medical sense donors,

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Speaker 1: people that do donations of their organs, people that donate

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Speaker 1: their eyes for those that can't see. But there is

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Speaker 1: a name that is going to stick with me for

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Speaker 1: a while, and it's the name of a business. It's

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Speaker 1: called Donor Services inside of Colorado, and it was run

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Speaker 1: by a woman named Megan Hess who was involved in

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Speaker 1: a situation where she not only had this donor services business,

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Speaker 1: but hang onto your hats, in the same building also

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Speaker 1: housed the funeral home that her family had owned for years, Dave,

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Speaker 1: is absolutely horrific. A huge tip off is when you

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Speaker 1: have what is referred to as a body broker and

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Speaker 1: a crematorium slash mortuary funeral home in the same building.

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Speaker 1: To be straight up with you, it is scary to

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Speaker 1: think that we have a funeral home and hey, on

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Speaker 1: this side, go to the left, we creamate, go to

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Speaker 1: the right, we got your body parts. I would assume

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Speaker 1: these are in separate buildings away from one another, that

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Speaker 1: as a body is being prepared, the family has decided

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Speaker 1: this body has been donated to science, that they would

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Speaker 1: go towards the body donated to science. This one, oh,

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Speaker 1: we want to cremate, or berry this one goes to

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Speaker 1: the funeral home. That's what I thought before today. I

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Speaker 1: think it probably goes without saying. With cremation it's obviously

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Speaker 1: less expensive. Then if you have a full on burial

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Speaker 1: where you're purchasing the casket and the prep with the body,

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Speaker 1: and of course the services that are associated with it,

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Speaker 1: opening up either a crypt or creating a grave with

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Speaker 1: a vault and all those sorts of things. One of

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Speaker 1: the reasons they would want to do this, to do

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Speaker 1: a cremation is that it's cost effective. Other people just

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Speaker 1: believe that they would rather see the money that is

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Speaker 1: going to be left behind for their family to go

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Speaker 1: to some other purpose other than some expensive funeral. But

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Speaker 1: herein lies the problem when you have a crematory service

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Speaker 1: like this, that is essentially attached to a business that

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Speaker 1: is titled donor services. You begin to think about, well,

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Speaker 1: what are the possibilities here, what's going on. Well, in

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Speaker 1: Hesse's case, along with her mother who also co owned

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Speaker 1: these businesses and had for years, what they were doing. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: as it came down to it, they were selling cremations

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Speaker 1: to families. All right, they're saying, I'm going to take

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Speaker 1: care of your loved one. We're going to cremate the remains.

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Speaker 1: We will return them to you in some type of

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Speaker 1: vessel norinate jar of some type and will be done.

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Speaker 1: But that wasn't the case. It's estimated that hundreds, if

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Speaker 1: not thousands of cases that pass through there for the

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Speaker 1: purposes of cremation. These people were going back into a

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Speaker 1: room and actually dissecting off specific body parts of the

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Speaker 1: deceased and he smealing out the bodies. They would either

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Speaker 1: sell a piece of the bodies, say from knee to foot,

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Speaker 1: or from wrist to the tip of the fingers or

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Speaker 1: shoulder to the tip of the fingers. They would dissect

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Speaker 1: these bodies out for the purposes of anatomical study. To

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Speaker 1: what turned out to be not legitimate businesses or legitimate organizations,

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Speaker 1: they'd be paid great sums of money, and then the

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Speaker 1: remainder of this they would essentially cremate, or if they

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Speaker 1: had completely piecemealed out the body, just latch onto this.

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Speaker 1: If they had completely piecemealed out the body of a

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Speaker 1: family's loved one, they would essentially return an urn sealed

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Speaker 1: to the family containing something other than human remains that

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Speaker 1: had been burned, perhaps sawdust, perhaps would in some cases

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Speaker 1: it could have just been dirt that was given back

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Speaker 1: to the family. And all the while, you know, the

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Speaker 1: family thinks that they've got their loved ones here, maybe

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Speaker 1: in some special place in the home where they passed

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Speaker 1: by periodically think about them, think about the good times

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Speaker 1: that they had and how much they'd loved them. But

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Speaker 1: that's not what they had. These families had no idea

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Speaker 1: what had happened to their family members during those moments.

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Speaker 1: And that's to be crystal clear. Megan Hess and her mother,

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Speaker 1: Shirley Cott owned this business. People came in there. They

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Speaker 1: are at the lowest of low They've lost a loved

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Speaker 1: one and they are now going to go through the

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Speaker 1: process of as you mentioned, the creme a and the

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Speaker 1: return of the cremains in an urn and that's what

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Speaker 1: they've been sold. Megan Hess sat there with families holding hands,

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Speaker 1: crying together. We're going to lovingly prepare your loved one.

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Speaker 1: And here you go. And I'm my biggest question and

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Speaker 1: this bothers me because I don't know the answer. My

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Speaker 1: mother was cremated. How do I know? I know what

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Speaker 1: the cremains looked like as we spread her ashes. Not

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Speaker 1: everybody does that, but we did. And I was shocked

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Speaker 1: at what came out of this bag. Okay, so Joe,

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Speaker 1: how do I know? How can I tell the difference

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Speaker 1: between the cremaines that I thought was my mother and

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Speaker 1: find out that it's dirt or maybe somebody else. It's

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Speaker 1: maybe somebody else's cremaines. You can't, that is, unless you

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Speaker 1: want to go the extra step and invest in having

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Speaker 1: a scientific study conducted only cremaines. And you're right, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that's what they were referred to as they are called cremines,

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Speaker 1: to look for any kind of organic substances that are

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Speaker 1: not consistent with human remains that are left over after cremation.

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Speaker 1: Because the process of cremation is kind of it's something

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Speaker 1: that most people are not familiar with. When the body

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Speaker 1: is placed into the crematory. It's a gigantic oven that

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Speaker 1: actually operates off of natural gas. You've got multiple jets

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Speaker 1: that are in there that burn at an incredibly high temperature.

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Speaker 1: And after the body has been in there for a

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Speaker 1: period of time, the remains are literally rendered down. Now

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Speaker 1: they're not completely rendered down to the smallest particle at

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Speaker 1: that point in time, because there's another process that the

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Speaker 1: body has to go through. I've seen this happen in

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Speaker 1: a couple of different ways. You have two processes. There

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Speaker 1: used to be a method where they would roll the

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Speaker 1: remains between two opposing large marble stones marble in some cases,

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Speaker 1: and those cremains that that remain are essentially crushed up.

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Speaker 1: Now it's more common to have this auger that kind

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Speaker 1: of spins around and it renders down the remains to

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Speaker 1: their small all this particulate component, so that it's virtually unrecognizable.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the most difficult thing to get rid of

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Speaker 1: in a cremation or the teeth, because of teeth are

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Speaker 1: the most resilient. So if you were in a legitimate

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Speaker 1: cremaine collection of cremains, if you were to look into

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Speaker 1: that the ideal, ideal I'm not saying it happens every time,

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Speaker 1: but the ideal set of circumstances is that you would

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Speaker 1: only have essentially what appears to be dust before you,

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Speaker 1: and many times that it does not completely happen. But

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Speaker 1: in this case, if you were a family member and

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Speaker 1: you were of a mind to go and open up

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Speaker 1: the urn, lord only knows what you would have in there,

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Speaker 1: particularly if it came from Hesse and her mother. It's

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Speaker 1: legal to donate body parts. It's legal to donate hard

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Speaker 1: kidney lungs. I guess all those things. We signed that

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Speaker 1: off on the back of our driver's license. But there

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Speaker 1: has to be some rule of thumb. Here's some law

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Speaker 1: on the books about hacking up my body and selling

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Speaker 1: off the parts without my family knewing. There has to

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Speaker 1: be something there. This sounds like a science fiction movie.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like some kind of horror film. But what

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Speaker 1: is there to prevent somebody from hacking off my arm

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Speaker 1: and shipping it off somewhere. There's any number of laws

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Speaker 1: on the books around the country relative to desecration of

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Speaker 1: human remains, abuse of a corpse, those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to this particular sphere, all things

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Speaker 1: are not the same for every location. With the Hess

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Speaker 1: case in particular, one of the interesting things from the

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Speaker 1: perspective of point of law is that this case was

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Speaker 1: not investigated because some family member went and opened up

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Speaker 1: the urn and said, oh, my goodness, look here, I

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Speaker 1: have something that just looks out of place. I found

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Speaker 1: a stone in here, or I found a piece of

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Speaker 1: wood in here, or something like that. That's not the

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Speaker 1: way this happened, because, as it turns out, the FEDS

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Speaker 1: actually began to look at this from the perspective of fraud.

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Speaker 1: You have an organization like Hesse's facility, where they are

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Speaker 1: essentially promising one thing, and you have the family members

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Speaker 1: paying for this very specific thing and they're not receiving

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Speaker 1: in return what they've paid for. They're being defrauded. And

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Speaker 1: that's what the FEDS looked at with their investigation, and

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Speaker 1: they put two and two together because it's, like we

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Speaker 1: said earlier on in our conversation, you got a funeral

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Speaker 1: home slash crematory and oh, by the way, you got

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Speaker 1: an anatomical services company that's here, and you begin to

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Speaker 1: look at these two things, and I think the FEDS

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Speaker 1: they even said, this is odd. Why would you have

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Speaker 1: these two things associated with one another, you would think

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Speaker 1: that the anatomical services or the donor services would be

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Speaker 1: a completely separate entity, and it certainly wouldn't be on

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Speaker 1: the same patch of ground with one another. Non transplant

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Speaker 1: anatomical donation a NATO is what that's referred to as.

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Speaker 1: And you think about that term non transplant. The elements

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Speaker 1: of the human remain that are sourced for the purposes

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Speaker 1: of medical training are those items that we would not

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Speaker 1: commonly associate with, say an organ transplant, you know, where

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Speaker 1: we think about heart, lungs, liver, kidney, eyes, those sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. This is a separate category. And this is

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Speaker 1: a category that Hess and her mother kind of danced

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Speaker 1: around on the edges of this business with where they

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Speaker 1: were actually advertising. They would go out and talk about

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Speaker 1: the types of services that they provided, and they did have, essentially,

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Speaker 1: at its found a legitimate business. But possibly one of

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Speaker 1: the problems that they ran into is that they realized

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Speaker 1: that they had a virtual goldmine on their hands. And

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Speaker 1: I mean that literally, Dave. Not only were they piecing

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Speaker 1: out these bodies to go to the study of anatomical structures,

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Speaker 1: but they were actually extracting the gold from people's teeth

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Speaker 1: the dead. Can you imagine that that was actually the

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Speaker 1: offensive thing that got the ball rolling Joe. In twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: one of the workers who had been an assistant manager

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Speaker 1: in that facility, Shirley, caught the sixty nine year old

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Speaker 1: mother of Megan Hess. She actually took this employee and

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Speaker 1: showed her her collection of gold teeth. She was removing

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Speaker 1: gold teeth and keeping them, and later Shirley actually took

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Speaker 1: the gold teeth and sold the gold out of them

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Speaker 1: and took a family trip to Disneyland. That's what got

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Speaker 1: this former employee so incensed that she went to the press.

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Speaker 1: An article began in an eight part series was done

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Speaker 1: by Reuters that the FBI saw and they were like, well,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, so they started digging into it and

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Speaker 1: that's where all of this began to collapse for Megan

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Speaker 1: and her mother, Shirley. But there's one family in particular, Joe,

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Speaker 1: that came out of it, and this is the shocking reality.

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Speaker 1: A man named Jeff Peacock. His mother and father passed

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Speaker 1: away in twenty thirteen. They've been together a long time

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Speaker 1: and Joe. They died within days of one another. Jeff's

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Speaker 1: dad Harry had negotiated their cremains before he did everything.

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Speaker 1: He was shopping around for the best deal, and he

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Speaker 1: settled with Megan Hess at Sunset masa funeral and paid

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Speaker 1: for everything so that when they did pass it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be left to the family to decide anything. They were

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Speaker 1: cremated and interred within days of one another. We're talking

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Speaker 1: August tenth. Harry was buried August twelfth, his wife passes away.

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Speaker 1: It was five years later, in twenty and eighteen, when

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Speaker 1: the story broke. The FBI calls their son Jeff and says, hey,

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Speaker 1: we need to talk to you about something. Those cremains

354
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 1: that are in that earned, they're not your mom and dad.

355
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: We've been able to trace that your dad's body was

356
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 1: parted out and parts of your mother are gone as well.

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Speaker 1: That's what this man gets hit with. Five years, six

358
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Speaker 1: years after his parents are dead, he finds out that

359
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 1: this place they trusted parted out his body after death,

360
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Speaker 1: and the place they've been going with flowers and everything

361
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Speaker 1: else to share memories of their mom and dad, their

362
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 1: cremains are not there. I don't even know how you

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Speaker 1: plumb the depths of it. They say that there's two

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Speaker 1: things that will impact you in this world at a

365
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Speaker 1: real deep level. Let's divorce and death. Those two things,

366
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Speaker 1: and they run a close second. Death as it applies

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Speaker 1: to grieving. The grieving process, it takes just let's kind

368
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Speaker 1: of frame this a little bit. It takes a while,

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Speaker 1: obviously for you to make it through the identifiable steps

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Speaker 1: of grief. Okay, it's a tough process. I know many

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Speaker 1: people in my listening audience can certainly identify with it.

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Speaker 1: I can, and I've lost a child, my family has

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Speaker 1: lost a number of people over the years, and it's

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Speaker 1: one of these things that you just you work your

375
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: way through it, and there are identifiable steps. But can

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Speaker 1: you imagine can you begin to imagine that you're working

377
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: your way through such a traumatic life event where you

378
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: have not just one, but two parents that die, and

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Speaker 1: at least from chronological standpoint, they die within a very

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Speaker 1: short period of time of one another. How impactful that is.

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Speaker 1: It's like getting hit in the chest with a ten

382
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Speaker 1: pound sledge hammer. And somehow, some way, you make it

383
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 1: through those stages. You get this far out and down

384
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Speaker 1: the road with the process, you get this phone call

385
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: to let you know from this total stranger calls you

386
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: out of the ballue and says, hey, look, I hate

387
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: to tell you this, but mom and Dad, their remains

388
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 1: were sold. They were sold on the market. You sit

389
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Speaker 1: there and you think you know those hands that suthed

390
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: me when I was a sick child, those hands that

391
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: disciplined me, those hands that wrapped me up and loved

392
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 1: me when I was hurting, those hands that cooked meals

393
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: from me. They're gone. You have no idea where they are.

394
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: You thought that they were somewhere else. You thought that

395
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: they were in a different state. And I mean that

396
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 1: in you have agreed to have them cremated, but they're

397
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,719
Speaker 1: there with you, under your watchful eye, your protection. Now

398
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: you find out that the memory that you're going to have,

399
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: you can't. I don't know that there's any way that

400
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 1: you could ever really get past this at this point.

401
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: I don't know that I could ever measure my level

402
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: of anger that would rise up in me, Dave in

403
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: a case like this, And that's the part that they

404
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 1: had to deal with when prosecuting these two. What they did,

405
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: this mother daughter team, they sold a billy goods to

406
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: people that were grieving and lied to them. They ostensibly

407
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: stole at least two hundred bodies and sold them for profit.

408
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: On top of that, Joe, I was going to ask you,

409
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: I don't know who buys these bodies, but I know

410
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: that when they're buying body parts or bodies in whole,

411
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: they're actually requiring them to not have certain diseases. I'm

412
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: certain of that. And we know for a fact that

413
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: Megan hasn't. Her mothers they lied about the condition. Some

414
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 1: of these bodies were HIV positive and they lied about it. Yeah,

415
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: HIV positive. And you had a couple of the help

416
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: groups that were involved too, which people talk about how

417
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 1: contagious HIV is and it is, but when compared to HEPP,

418
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: you're in a completely different realm at that point in time.

419
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 1: And so the general public is being exposed to these diseases,

420
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 1: certainly anybody that's working in a postal service or any

421
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: kind of transport services that is the means for these

422
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 1: bits of anatomy to be conveyed from one spot to

423
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: the other. I don't know, it sounds so simplistic me

424
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,719
Speaker 1: saying this. It's like the height of selfishness and greed.

425
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: You begin to look at this, that you would take

426
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: this kind of risk, expose people out there far and

427
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: wide to whatever you know is going on from a

428
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 1: pathology standpoint with these remains that you had control of,

429
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: But yet you're exposing everybody to them just so that

430
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: you can enrich yourself. I would think that the families

431
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: would want the stiffest, harshest penalties that could possibly be

432
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: imposed on these two that they could possibly get, But

433
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I don't know if there's enough

434
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: time in jail that you could assign to these individuals

435
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: or sentence them too. They were allowed to plea to

436
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: take all the charges and plea it down and have

437
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: some charges dropped, and I don't think the families are

438
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: totally satisfied. I know that there has been an appeals processed,

439
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: but I did want to point one last little bit out,

440
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: Joe to just to make it if it can be

441
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: any worse. You know, when they sat with these families,

442
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: they discussed donation, they discussed donating bodies to science, and

443
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: there were instances where the family, for personal or religious reasons,

444
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: outright rejected that said absolutely not, we won't even consider that,

445
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: and they did not care. They did it anyway. A

446
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: violation that goes beyond anything I can even imagine, I'm

447
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: glad you pointed that out day, because you're not talking

448
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: about a perpetrator here that just committed fraud by essentially

449
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: dissecting someone's loved one and selling their anatomical parts. You're

450
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: talking about somebody that, in certain cases had specific instructions

451
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: I do not want this to happen, but yet they

452
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: went ahead and move forward with it. This takes this

453
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: to an entirely different level. Look, and I got to

454
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: say something here. I've got a lot of friends who

455
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: are physicians or surgeons, this sort of thing that I've

456
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: run across over the years. One of the things that

457
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: you have to do as a medical student and as

458
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: a resident is learn how to train, for instance, just

459
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: doing suitoring, learning how to suiture. I know many cases

460
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: where surgeons people that were pursuing surgical residencies, they would

461
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: essentially take pigs and there would be incisions that would

462
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: be made into pigs, and they would learn how to

463
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: suiture on these deceased animals. And when you have an

464
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: opportunity to have actual sample from a human being where

465
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: you can study it and understand the impact of what

466
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: you're doing as a surgeon or as a treating physician.

467
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: I think that that's very important and it's certainly something

468
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: that's needed. There are legitimate businesses out there that provide

469
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: the service, and it's something I think that is a

470
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: requirement that you have access to because you want the

471
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: most highly skilled people out there working in the medical

472
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: community that take care of us. But circumstances like this,

473
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: I can't imagine in my wildest fantasies why anybody would

474
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: take delivery from an individual that was peacemealing human remains

475
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: just so that they could make a profit. And they

476
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: did plea bargain it down. Sentences have been passed surely.

477
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: College sixty nine year old mother and co owner of

478
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: the facility, she was sentenced to fifteen years in prison.

479
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: She played guilty to one kind of mail fraud and

480
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: aiding at a betting. Her daughter, Megan hess At forty six,

481
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: was sentenced to twenty years in prison. You know, as

482
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: I mentioned, there was a lot of pleaing going on

483
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: and that was what they were able to negotiate a

484
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: twenty year sentence that was appealed, that was upheld by

485
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: the court on mail fraud and aiding and a betting.

486
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: They are going to prison Shirley Coage, maybe for life,

487
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: with a fifteen year sentence at nearly seventy years old.

488
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: Megan Hess, she'll still get out while she's still alive.

489
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: A lot of the family is not happy about that. Joe, Yeah,

490
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: and I can't imagine that. I don't know that there's

491
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: any amount of time that she could give to these

492
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: people that would repair the damage that's been done. I'm

493
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this his body backs