Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Junior. You know
Speaker 1: religious institutions. The UN estimates they an eight percent of
Speaker 1: habitable land on Earth. The majority shareholder is the Catholic Church.
Speaker 1: It has one hundred seventy seven million acres. We need
Speaker 1: to realize the power of our portfolios. They are a
Speaker 1: proposition of what we believe in and our values. They
Speaker 1: aren't neutral like anything, and when it comes to portfolios
Speaker 1: of land, developing it, growing food, building on it, and
Speaker 1: living on it are the most familiar uses. Molly Burhans
Speaker 1: is a member of the Catholic Church. She's also a
Speaker 1: cartographer and data scientist, and she believes that land can
Speaker 1: be used to protect the environment and create a more
Speaker 1: equitable world. I don't think anyone should have a global
Speaker 1: data set of all the world's religions, given that landing
Speaker 1: religion are like the two things that we have the
Speaker 1: most beef about in history, but also are the two
Speaker 1: critical leverage points that climate change. Through her nonprofit good Lands,
Speaker 1: Burham's aims to leverage the power of data to mobilize
Speaker 1: the church to use its abundance of land assets for
Speaker 1: the greater good. She's developing a database to house comprehensive
Speaker 1: maps of all modern Catholic land assets. If we all
Speaker 1: realize the potential of our property and make land work
Speaker 1: for good, biodiversity loss and climate change is a solvable problem.
Speaker 1: I am Pentecostal. I grew up a preacher's kid, and
Speaker 1: I saw something that was interesting about your story, which
Speaker 1: was that you didn't get serious about your Catholic faith
Speaker 1: until college, which was a lot like me too. I
Speaker 1: was saved at nine, but I didn't really get serious
Speaker 1: about the church and make a commitment until somewhere within
Speaker 1: my mid twenties, I want to say, around twenty four
Speaker 1: or twenty five. Tell me a little bit about that
Speaker 1: experience for you, well before that, I'm interested in you, like,
Speaker 1: how did you end up coming back? You know, it's
Speaker 1: it's actually a journey that that I'm kind of still on.
Speaker 1: So growing up in church the whole time, viewing the faith,
Speaker 1: listening to all the tenets, listening to everybody, everything that
Speaker 1: everyone says, being in a faith or faith practice that's
Speaker 1: a little more conservative than most. If you are a
Speaker 1: child or a young adult or a person that's questioning
Speaker 1: those types of conservative practices, you have no one else
Speaker 1: to interface with or to talk to that may think
Speaker 1: the same way that you do. And I knew that
Speaker 1: if I left, then all of the people who were
Speaker 1: like me at night and younger as kids would not
Speaker 1: have a me to talk to there. And so that's
Speaker 1: why that's why I stay, and that's kind of what
Speaker 1: continues me to renewing my faith every day. So Molly,
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your path with Catholicism
Speaker 1: and how it ties into what you do. My dad
Speaker 1: was a molecular oncologist, my mom's computer scientist, and I
Speaker 1: had been like really deep into kind of questions about
Speaker 1: finding God in all things. So, like, naked mule rests
Speaker 1: are very interesting creatures. I don't want to call any
Speaker 1: of God's creation ugly, but they are like really really
Speaker 1: funky little guys that live under the ground and they
Speaker 1: have they live really long. And you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of like had this moment and doing some mathematical modeling,
Speaker 1: it hit me like, gosh, why would anyone want to
Speaker 1: live forever? It sounds like terrifying to me in a sense.
Speaker 1: And then you know, that led to the really deep
Speaker 1: question of why would anyone want to live today? What's
Speaker 1: the meaning of life? You know and and it kind
Speaker 1: of made me realize faith and science are like there's
Speaker 1: a quote, are like my thumb and my fourth finger
Speaker 1: and through my grassball things. You know, God is love
Speaker 1: and he's logical, not fear. It's love. We want to
Speaker 1: be here with those we love and celebrate. Why would
Speaker 1: you want to live forever be hellish? If is anything
Speaker 1: else but love? That's the only reason. And so meaning
Speaker 1: of life is love. That's and and then I you know,
Speaker 1: had to after that, it was the long journey of
Speaker 1: like how do we do this? And I'm still on
Speaker 1: that one. So tell listeners about what it is that
Speaker 1: you do. Okay. I run a social enterprise that I
Speaker 1: founded in twenty fifteen, and the social enterprise helps the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church, but it serves everyone. It can serve anyone
Speaker 1: with large portfolio, understand what they own generally at least
Speaker 1: thirty properties or more, and implement environmental programs using an
Speaker 1: understanding of the environment in the church. So often one
Speaker 1: of the criticisms you hear of Catholicism is you know,
Speaker 1: they're the richest, richest thieves, which is, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not liquid. I think a lot of people, especially the
Speaker 1: Catholics like I know, who are just like working for
Speaker 1: a diocese, doing the books, like doing ministry, who are
Speaker 1: like making wage you know, Like the issue is really
Speaker 1: a management when financially our property portfolios, any investment portfolio,
Speaker 1: but a property portfolio right now is shaping the land
Speaker 1: around it, and it has potential and it will build
Speaker 1: the landscapes of our future. And we need to realize
Speaker 1: the power of our portfolios. They are a proposition of
Speaker 1: what we believe in and our values. They aren't neutral
Speaker 1: like anything, and embodying our faith and our mission to
Speaker 1: care for the poor and the earth and reflect that
Speaker 1: love and also be responsible financial stewards. You have to
Speaker 1: use data to do it, and we now have the
Speaker 1: tools to do that. So essentially we digitize records. People
Speaker 1: can know what they have and where it is to
Speaker 1: understand the impact of that property right now and how
Speaker 1: it can shape the landscapes of our future. What's your
Speaker 1: ultimate intent with the work that you do, Like if
Speaker 1: you could boil it down, what does that look like?
Speaker 1: The big goal to make the largest global network of
Speaker 1: ecosystems restoration, you know, making land work for good. Say,
Speaker 1: just give me a cursory explanation of what you mean
Speaker 1: when you say make the land work for good. You
Speaker 1: want to shelter the homeless, You've got to have a shelter,
Speaker 1: that's land use. You want to feed the poor, you
Speaker 1: have to grow that food somewhere. You know, care for
Speaker 1: this sick. Oh gosh, we know how much like design
Speaker 1: and outdoors and ventilation matters. Now with like COVID. You
Speaker 1: want to prevent the next pandemic. We have to stop
Speaker 1: destroying habitats. You cannot separate any of our missions from
Speaker 1: the environment. Everything goes back to the land. So if
Speaker 1: you're telling me what you do is you work with
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church to get a survey of all that
Speaker 1: land and you recommend better ways for them to use it. Yes,
Speaker 1: do you have a successful example of repurposing the land
Speaker 1: and for good and what that looks like? So I
Speaker 1: have a master's in ecological design and I studied under
Speaker 1: landscape architects. So I my first project, which is being
Speaker 1: built in Springfield, showed me that making land work for
Speaker 1: good is so encompassing. When you do it, it's a
Speaker 1: food forest and an urban farm for at Riscue Youth
Speaker 1: in Springfield, Massachusetts. And you design with the people. The
Speaker 1: people are the designers. We see community being built, health
Speaker 1: being built, skills being built, futures being built. It's good
Speaker 1: because it's so horizontal and it's impact when we use
Speaker 1: our property as well. So quick question, Molly, talk to
Speaker 1: us about why maps are important. It's like it's time
Speaker 1: consuming work, So why not just jump in and start
Speaker 1: making ecologically smart choices as fast as possible given the
Speaker 1: urgency of our timate challenges right now? Yeah, okay, because
Speaker 1: everybody needs a map, because a map is a blueprint
Speaker 1: pretty much like if you're doing environmental programs without a map.
Speaker 1: How I view it is it's kind of like you're
Speaker 1: building a building without any blueprints. You're just kind of
Speaker 1: throwing stones, if that makes sense, Like I think it's
Speaker 1: it's really problematic. Actually, I'm you know, for us, all
Speaker 1: the projects we did, they weren't just digitizing, but they
Speaker 1: started to progress to like okay, now we're gonna look
Speaker 1: at the portfolio financially, Okay, now we're gonna look at schools.
Speaker 1: So why you need a map is if you try
Speaker 1: to even keep me. Look, I'm rambling right now. Without
Speaker 1: a map, I could have said everything I just said
Speaker 1: to you in like twenty seconds, and we would have
Speaker 1: gotten a boom, boom boom. He has these data steps.
Speaker 1: Now we know the story, right, Yes, And now if
Speaker 1: you're working with soils and hydrology and water drainage, and
Speaker 1: you know, if you're going to implement a stormwater management strategy,
Speaker 1: you know, if you're going to implement tree planting, not
Speaker 1: only do you need to have the right species in
Speaker 1: the right place to do it with any sort of
Speaker 1: ecological integrity, but at the same time, you can have
Speaker 1: five thousand times the impact on this one property. And
Speaker 1: so it's really maps are also about helping your neighbor
Speaker 1: in need, you know, not just doing it in a
Speaker 1: sound way, but doing it in a more equitable way.
Speaker 1: And then what's the action item after you get the map? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they get like a master plan which is really
Speaker 1: just kind of like a strategic plan for their property,
Speaker 1: but with the impact folded in, with the community input
Speaker 1: and with the data so they can continue onwards and
Speaker 1: also to track what they're actually doing and in terms
Speaker 1: of how what you're doing helps the environment. What has
Speaker 1: that interaction been like between you and the church, You
Speaker 1: know it has been it's been weird. I somehow got
Speaker 1: a meeting at twenty six years old, you know, at
Speaker 1: the Vatican. It has been very well received. This hostel
Speaker 1: called the Melting Pot in Rome, that's fifteen years a night.
Speaker 1: I'm matching an entire global religious order at the time
Speaker 1: to just like get an idea of the data structure
Speaker 1: of going to these meetings in palaces in the evening.
Speaker 1: And I asked talked to the Vatican about it from
Speaker 1: day one, and you know, have been very mindful of
Speaker 1: security and policy. I think that is one of the
Speaker 1: kind of greatest outcomes so far of this is that
Speaker 1: I have been a voice about land, land security and
Speaker 1: data security and policy. I actually also had an association
Speaker 1: of Buddhist monasteries come to me to ensure that they
Speaker 1: know how to do this with their data. I don't
Speaker 1: think anyone should have a global data set of all
Speaker 1: the world's religions lands per se. I think that that
Speaker 1: would be too powerful and high risk, given that land
Speaker 1: and religion are like the two things that we have
Speaker 1: the most beef about in history, but also are the
Speaker 1: two critical leverage into climate change. You know, religious institutions.
Speaker 1: The UN estimates they own eight percent of habitable land
Speaker 1: on Earth that is larger than India and Sudan combined
Speaker 1: and five percent of commercial for us. If we don't
Speaker 1: succeed as faith institutions and owning our responsibility in the
Speaker 1: face of this crisis, the world is going down. How
Speaker 1: do you convince a faith the organization of their responsibility
Speaker 1: here though, because when we talk about climate change, especially
Speaker 1: when you think about religion and the fact that in
Speaker 1: a lot of Christian faiths they see themselves being taken
Speaker 1: out of here when the world gets to its worst state.
Speaker 1: So how do you even get organizations to care about
Speaker 1: something like climate change when they think that they might
Speaker 1: not even be around for it? Grueling, absolutely grueling work,
Speaker 1: to be honest, you know, I guess we've been told
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be easy, but I never expected what I've
Speaker 1: faced in this. It's well, first, it's it's really education.
Speaker 1: So like you know, what I found is that people
Speaker 1: are kind of waking up more and more each year,
Speaker 1: and I think that's a collective effort of the science communicators,
Speaker 1: the activists, of the faith leaders of it's so devastating,
Speaker 1: you know, every day, but we keep at it, like
Speaker 1: all of us, you know, from different faiths, and no
Speaker 1: faiths and just knowing the human family impact. The funding
Speaker 1: is the most screwed of thing I've ever seen, and
Speaker 1: it is shocking. So like, you know, the Pope gave
Speaker 1: me approval to establish the first scientific institution there in
Speaker 1: the trial basis, the budget was not enough there and
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's so weird, like my salaries less
Speaker 1: than McDonald's salary. And I hope it gets fixed for
Speaker 1: all of us, and I hope all of our faith
Speaker 1: communities learned to to step up because the interest is there,
Speaker 1: the leadership that the bishops are want this. You know,
Speaker 1: we have more request than we could take and we've
Speaker 1: already done as much as we can with pulling together
Speaker 1: these teams. You know, it's it's just it blows my mind.
Speaker 1: Most people that work in actives and working to work
Speaker 1: that you are in have an acute awareness that there
Speaker 1: really is no end. But let's say there is an end,
Speaker 1: what does that successful journey look like for you? Well,
Speaker 1: the big end is the Catholic conservation on the global scale.
Speaker 1: But I think in the next five years, you know,
Speaker 1: we have right now in our kind of backlog, we
Speaker 1: have seventeen dioceses and two major engeos who want to
Speaker 1: work with us. I actually think it's an alliance of
Speaker 1: you know, dealing with the complexities of ownership and healing.
Speaker 1: Have to heal our communities in each other if we
Speaker 1: want to heal the land with integrity, What can listeners
Speaker 1: do to kind of help to be engaged in your mission?
Speaker 1: Just go start googling permaculture, just like inspire, like a
Speaker 1: holistic land design. Go find a place locally that is
Speaker 1: practicing these these land management techniques, because you will see
Speaker 1: a future that you want to live in that is
Speaker 1: awesome and verdant and like abundant. Whatever faith you are
Speaker 1: in the connections you have, encourage the fiduciary support. That
Speaker 1: is really the missing piece for all the organizations. I'm
Speaker 1: terrible at fundraising, but the whole space needs help. It
Speaker 1: needs money. All of the Faith for Earth, every Faith
Speaker 1: for Earth organization desperately. Was there a way for listeners
Speaker 1: to get involved directly with the actual matmaking and help
Speaker 1: propelling the project forward. Oh my gosh, if you got
Speaker 1: one point three billion Catholics collecting data on species, we'd
Speaker 1: have like the greatest global species inventorium like a month.
Speaker 1: It'd be so cool. You know, I'm really hopeful actually
Speaker 1: about all of this right now. I know our partners
Speaker 1: at the Saint Katterie Conservation Center have an app where
Speaker 1: you can log different species. I think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of apps out there too, like like the Audubon Society
Speaker 1: and their bird Day, you know, bird count, and it's
Speaker 1: it's awesome. I'm hopeful about the future. You know, We're
Speaker 1: all just hacking at it and I see it happening,
Speaker 1: and it's it's coming out, and it's just not just Catholics,
Speaker 1: but all face the people I've met in the faith
Speaker 1: for Earth space, We're all caring about the same thing. Molly,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Molly Burhans is the founder and executive director of good Lands.
Speaker 1: To learn more about our work mapping the lands of
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church and to find links to our suggestions
Speaker 1: about ways you can get involved with the ecological design
Speaker 1: and mapping, check out the links in our show notes.
Speaker 1: Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by David Job,
Speaker 1: booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias,
Speaker 1: and the executive producer of Pushkin Podcasts is mil LaBelle.
Speaker 1: I'm Ronald Young Junior. Thanks for listening,