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Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Junior. You know

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Speaker 1: religious institutions. The UN estimates they an eight percent of

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Speaker 1: habitable land on Earth. The majority shareholder is the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: It has one hundred seventy seven million acres. We need

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Speaker 1: to realize the power of our portfolios. They are a

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Speaker 1: proposition of what we believe in and our values. They

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Speaker 1: aren't neutral like anything, and when it comes to portfolios

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Speaker 1: of land, developing it, growing food, building on it, and

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Speaker 1: living on it are the most familiar uses. Molly Burhans

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Speaker 1: is a member of the Catholic Church. She's also a

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Speaker 1: cartographer and data scientist, and she believes that land can

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Speaker 1: be used to protect the environment and create a more

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Speaker 1: equitable world. I don't think anyone should have a global

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Speaker 1: data set of all the world's religions, given that landing

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Speaker 1: religion are like the two things that we have the

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Speaker 1: most beef about in history, but also are the two

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Speaker 1: critical leverage points that climate change. Through her nonprofit good Lands,

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Speaker 1: Burham's aims to leverage the power of data to mobilize

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Speaker 1: the church to use its abundance of land assets for

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Speaker 1: the greater good. She's developing a database to house comprehensive

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Speaker 1: maps of all modern Catholic land assets. If we all

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Speaker 1: realize the potential of our property and make land work

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Speaker 1: for good, biodiversity loss and climate change is a solvable problem.

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Speaker 1: I am Pentecostal. I grew up a preacher's kid, and

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Speaker 1: I saw something that was interesting about your story, which

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Speaker 1: was that you didn't get serious about your Catholic faith

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Speaker 1: until college, which was a lot like me too. I

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Speaker 1: was saved at nine, but I didn't really get serious

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Speaker 1: about the church and make a commitment until somewhere within

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Speaker 1: my mid twenties, I want to say, around twenty four

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Speaker 1: or twenty five. Tell me a little bit about that

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Speaker 1: experience for you, well before that, I'm interested in you, like,

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Speaker 1: how did you end up coming back? You know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's actually a journey that that I'm kind of still on.

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Speaker 1: So growing up in church the whole time, viewing the faith,

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Speaker 1: listening to all the tenets, listening to everybody, everything that

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Speaker 1: everyone says, being in a faith or faith practice that's

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Speaker 1: a little more conservative than most. If you are a

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Speaker 1: child or a young adult or a person that's questioning

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Speaker 1: those types of conservative practices, you have no one else

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Speaker 1: to interface with or to talk to that may think

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Speaker 1: the same way that you do. And I knew that

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Speaker 1: if I left, then all of the people who were

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Speaker 1: like me at night and younger as kids would not

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Speaker 1: have a me to talk to there. And so that's

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Speaker 1: why that's why I stay, and that's kind of what

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Speaker 1: continues me to renewing my faith every day. So Molly,

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your path with Catholicism

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Speaker 1: and how it ties into what you do. My dad

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Speaker 1: was a molecular oncologist, my mom's computer scientist, and I

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Speaker 1: had been like really deep into kind of questions about

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Speaker 1: finding God in all things. So, like, naked mule rests

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Speaker 1: are very interesting creatures. I don't want to call any

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Speaker 1: of God's creation ugly, but they are like really really

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Speaker 1: funky little guys that live under the ground and they

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Speaker 1: have they live really long. And you know, I kind

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Speaker 1: of like had this moment and doing some mathematical modeling,

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Speaker 1: it hit me like, gosh, why would anyone want to

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Speaker 1: live forever? It sounds like terrifying to me in a sense.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, that led to the really deep

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Speaker 1: question of why would anyone want to live today? What's

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Speaker 1: the meaning of life? You know and and it kind

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Speaker 1: of made me realize faith and science are like there's

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Speaker 1: a quote, are like my thumb and my fourth finger

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Speaker 1: and through my grassball things. You know, God is love

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Speaker 1: and he's logical, not fear. It's love. We want to

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Speaker 1: be here with those we love and celebrate. Why would

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Speaker 1: you want to live forever be hellish? If is anything

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Speaker 1: else but love? That's the only reason. And so meaning

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Speaker 1: of life is love. That's and and then I you know,

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Speaker 1: had to after that, it was the long journey of

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Speaker 1: like how do we do this? And I'm still on

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Speaker 1: that one. So tell listeners about what it is that

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Speaker 1: you do. Okay. I run a social enterprise that I

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Speaker 1: founded in twenty fifteen, and the social enterprise helps the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church, but it serves everyone. It can serve anyone

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Speaker 1: with large portfolio, understand what they own generally at least

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Speaker 1: thirty properties or more, and implement environmental programs using an

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Speaker 1: understanding of the environment in the church. So often one

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Speaker 1: of the criticisms you hear of Catholicism is you know,

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Speaker 1: they're the richest, richest thieves, which is, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not liquid. I think a lot of people, especially the

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Speaker 1: Catholics like I know, who are just like working for

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Speaker 1: a diocese, doing the books, like doing ministry, who are

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Speaker 1: like making wage you know, Like the issue is really

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Speaker 1: a management when financially our property portfolios, any investment portfolio,

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Speaker 1: but a property portfolio right now is shaping the land

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Speaker 1: around it, and it has potential and it will build

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Speaker 1: the landscapes of our future. And we need to realize

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Speaker 1: the power of our portfolios. They are a proposition of

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Speaker 1: what we believe in and our values. They aren't neutral

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Speaker 1: like anything, and embodying our faith and our mission to

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Speaker 1: care for the poor and the earth and reflect that

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Speaker 1: love and also be responsible financial stewards. You have to

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Speaker 1: use data to do it, and we now have the

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Speaker 1: tools to do that. So essentially we digitize records. People

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Speaker 1: can know what they have and where it is to

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Speaker 1: understand the impact of that property right now and how

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Speaker 1: it can shape the landscapes of our future. What's your

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Speaker 1: ultimate intent with the work that you do, Like if

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Speaker 1: you could boil it down, what does that look like?

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Speaker 1: The big goal to make the largest global network of

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Speaker 1: ecosystems restoration, you know, making land work for good. Say,

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Speaker 1: just give me a cursory explanation of what you mean

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Speaker 1: when you say make the land work for good. You

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Speaker 1: want to shelter the homeless, You've got to have a shelter,

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Speaker 1: that's land use. You want to feed the poor, you

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Speaker 1: have to grow that food somewhere. You know, care for

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Speaker 1: this sick. Oh gosh, we know how much like design

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Speaker 1: and outdoors and ventilation matters. Now with like COVID. You

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Speaker 1: want to prevent the next pandemic. We have to stop

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Speaker 1: destroying habitats. You cannot separate any of our missions from

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Speaker 1: the environment. Everything goes back to the land. So if

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Speaker 1: you're telling me what you do is you work with

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church to get a survey of all that

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Speaker 1: land and you recommend better ways for them to use it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: do you have a successful example of repurposing the land

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Speaker 1: and for good and what that looks like? So I

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Speaker 1: have a master's in ecological design and I studied under

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Speaker 1: landscape architects. So I my first project, which is being

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Speaker 1: built in Springfield, showed me that making land work for

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Speaker 1: good is so encompassing. When you do it, it's a

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Speaker 1: food forest and an urban farm for at Riscue Youth

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Speaker 1: in Springfield, Massachusetts. And you design with the people. The

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Speaker 1: people are the designers. We see community being built, health

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Speaker 1: being built, skills being built, futures being built. It's good

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Speaker 1: because it's so horizontal and it's impact when we use

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Speaker 1: our property as well. So quick question, Molly, talk to

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Speaker 1: us about why maps are important. It's like it's time

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Speaker 1: consuming work, So why not just jump in and start

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Speaker 1: making ecologically smart choices as fast as possible given the

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Speaker 1: urgency of our timate challenges right now? Yeah, okay, because

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Speaker 1: everybody needs a map, because a map is a blueprint

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Speaker 1: pretty much like if you're doing environmental programs without a map.

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Speaker 1: How I view it is it's kind of like you're

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Speaker 1: building a building without any blueprints. You're just kind of

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Speaker 1: throwing stones, if that makes sense, Like I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's really problematic. Actually, I'm you know, for us, all

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Speaker 1: the projects we did, they weren't just digitizing, but they

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Speaker 1: started to progress to like okay, now we're gonna look

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Speaker 1: at the portfolio financially, Okay, now we're gonna look at schools.

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Speaker 1: So why you need a map is if you try

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Speaker 1: to even keep me. Look, I'm rambling right now. Without

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Speaker 1: a map, I could have said everything I just said

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Speaker 1: to you in like twenty seconds, and we would have

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Speaker 1: gotten a boom, boom boom. He has these data steps.

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Speaker 1: Now we know the story, right, Yes, And now if

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Speaker 1: you're working with soils and hydrology and water drainage, and

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're going to implement a stormwater management strategy,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're going to implement tree planting, not

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Speaker 1: only do you need to have the right species in

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Speaker 1: the right place to do it with any sort of

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Speaker 1: ecological integrity, but at the same time, you can have

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Speaker 1: five thousand times the impact on this one property. And

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Speaker 1: so it's really maps are also about helping your neighbor

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Speaker 1: in need, you know, not just doing it in a

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Speaker 1: sound way, but doing it in a more equitable way.

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Speaker 1: And then what's the action item after you get the map? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they get like a master plan which is really

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Speaker 1: just kind of like a strategic plan for their property,

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Speaker 1: but with the impact folded in, with the community input

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Speaker 1: and with the data so they can continue onwards and

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Speaker 1: also to track what they're actually doing and in terms

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Speaker 1: of how what you're doing helps the environment. What has

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Speaker 1: that interaction been like between you and the church, You

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Speaker 1: know it has been it's been weird. I somehow got

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Speaker 1: a meeting at twenty six years old, you know, at

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Speaker 1: the Vatican. It has been very well received. This hostel

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Speaker 1: called the Melting Pot in Rome, that's fifteen years a night.

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Speaker 1: I'm matching an entire global religious order at the time

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Speaker 1: to just like get an idea of the data structure

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Speaker 1: of going to these meetings in palaces in the evening.

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Speaker 1: And I asked talked to the Vatican about it from

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Speaker 1: day one, and you know, have been very mindful of

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Speaker 1: security and policy. I think that is one of the

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Speaker 1: kind of greatest outcomes so far of this is that

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Speaker 1: I have been a voice about land, land security and

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Speaker 1: data security and policy. I actually also had an association

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Speaker 1: of Buddhist monasteries come to me to ensure that they

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Speaker 1: know how to do this with their data. I don't

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Speaker 1: think anyone should have a global data set of all

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Speaker 1: the world's religions lands per se. I think that that

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Speaker 1: would be too powerful and high risk, given that land

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Speaker 1: and religion are like the two things that we have

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Speaker 1: the most beef about in history, but also are the

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Speaker 1: two critical leverage into climate change. You know, religious institutions.

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Speaker 1: The UN estimates they own eight percent of habitable land

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Speaker 1: on Earth that is larger than India and Sudan combined

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Speaker 1: and five percent of commercial for us. If we don't

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Speaker 1: succeed as faith institutions and owning our responsibility in the

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Speaker 1: face of this crisis, the world is going down. How

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Speaker 1: do you convince a faith the organization of their responsibility

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Speaker 1: here though, because when we talk about climate change, especially

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Speaker 1: when you think about religion and the fact that in

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Speaker 1: a lot of Christian faiths they see themselves being taken

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Speaker 1: out of here when the world gets to its worst state.

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Speaker 1: So how do you even get organizations to care about

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Speaker 1: something like climate change when they think that they might

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Speaker 1: not even be around for it? Grueling, absolutely grueling work,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, you know, I guess we've been told

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't be easy, but I never expected what I've

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Speaker 1: faced in this. It's well, first, it's it's really education.

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Speaker 1: So like you know, what I found is that people

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Speaker 1: are kind of waking up more and more each year,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's a collective effort of the science communicators,

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Speaker 1: the activists, of the faith leaders of it's so devastating,

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Speaker 1: you know, every day, but we keep at it, like

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Speaker 1: all of us, you know, from different faiths, and no

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Speaker 1: faiths and just knowing the human family impact. The funding

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Speaker 1: is the most screwed of thing I've ever seen, and

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Speaker 1: it is shocking. So like, you know, the Pope gave

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Speaker 1: me approval to establish the first scientific institution there in

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Speaker 1: the trial basis, the budget was not enough there and

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Speaker 1: I mean, and it's so weird, like my salaries less

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Speaker 1: than McDonald's salary. And I hope it gets fixed for

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Speaker 1: all of us, and I hope all of our faith

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Speaker 1: communities learned to to step up because the interest is there,

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Speaker 1: the leadership that the bishops are want this. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have more request than we could take and we've

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Speaker 1: already done as much as we can with pulling together

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Speaker 1: these teams. You know, it's it's just it blows my mind.

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Speaker 1: Most people that work in actives and working to work

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Speaker 1: that you are in have an acute awareness that there

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Speaker 1: really is no end. But let's say there is an end,

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Speaker 1: what does that successful journey look like for you? Well,

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Speaker 1: the big end is the Catholic conservation on the global scale.

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Speaker 1: But I think in the next five years, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have right now in our kind of backlog, we

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Speaker 1: have seventeen dioceses and two major engeos who want to

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Speaker 1: work with us. I actually think it's an alliance of

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Speaker 1: you know, dealing with the complexities of ownership and healing.

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Speaker 1: Have to heal our communities in each other if we

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Speaker 1: want to heal the land with integrity, What can listeners

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Speaker 1: do to kind of help to be engaged in your mission?

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Speaker 1: Just go start googling permaculture, just like inspire, like a

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Speaker 1: holistic land design. Go find a place locally that is

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Speaker 1: practicing these these land management techniques, because you will see

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Speaker 1: a future that you want to live in that is

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Speaker 1: awesome and verdant and like abundant. Whatever faith you are

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Speaker 1: in the connections you have, encourage the fiduciary support. That

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Speaker 1: is really the missing piece for all the organizations. I'm

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Speaker 1: terrible at fundraising, but the whole space needs help. It

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Speaker 1: needs money. All of the Faith for Earth, every Faith

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Speaker 1: for Earth organization desperately. Was there a way for listeners

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Speaker 1: to get involved directly with the actual matmaking and help

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Speaker 1: propelling the project forward. Oh my gosh, if you got

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Speaker 1: one point three billion Catholics collecting data on species, we'd

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Speaker 1: have like the greatest global species inventorium like a month.

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Speaker 1: It'd be so cool. You know, I'm really hopeful actually

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Speaker 1: about all of this right now. I know our partners

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Speaker 1: at the Saint Katterie Conservation Center have an app where

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Speaker 1: you can log different species. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of apps out there too, like like the Audubon Society

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Speaker 1: and their bird Day, you know, bird count, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's awesome. I'm hopeful about the future. You know, We're

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Speaker 1: all just hacking at it and I see it happening,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's coming out, and it's just not just Catholics,

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Speaker 1: but all face the people I've met in the faith

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Speaker 1: for Earth space, We're all caring about the same thing. Molly,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Molly Burhans is the founder and executive director of good Lands.

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Speaker 1: To learn more about our work mapping the lands of

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church and to find links to our suggestions

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Speaker 1: about ways you can get involved with the ecological design

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Speaker 1: and mapping, check out the links in our show notes.

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Speaker 1: Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by David Job,

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Speaker 1: booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias,

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Speaker 1: and the executive producer of Pushkin Podcasts is mil LaBelle.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ronald Young Junior. Thanks for listening,