1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World, Abraham Lincoln grappled with 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,159 Speaker 1: the greatest crisis of democracy that has ever confronted the 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: United States. While many books have been written about his temperament, judgment, 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: and steady hand in guiding the country through the Civil War, 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: we know less about Lincoln's penetrating ideas and beliefs about democracy, 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: which were every bit as important as his character in 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: sustaining him to the crisis. In his new book, Our 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: Ancient Faith, Lincoln, Democracy and the American Experiment, Award winning 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: historian and best selling author Alan Gelzo captures the president's 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: firmly held belief that democracy was the greatest political achievement 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: in human history. He shows how Lincoln's deep commitment to 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: the balance between majority and minority rule enabled him to 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: stand firm against secession, while also committing the Union to 14 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: reconciliation rather than recruitminals in the aftermath of war. Here 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: to discuss his new book, I am really pleased to 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: welcome my guest, Alan Galzo. He is perhaps best known 17 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: as one of the most respected Lincoln scholars in the world. 18 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: He is a Senior Research Scholar at the Council of 19 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: Humanities at Princeton University and the author of several books 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: about the Civil War, including Gettysburg and Robert E. Lee. 21 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: He has been the recipient of the Lincoln Prize three 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: times and the Guggenheim Lehmann Prize for Military History. He's 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: also someone I regard as a close friend and who 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: I turned to for advice regularly. Alan, welcome and thank 25 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: you for joining me again on Nuts World. 26 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much, dude. It's good to talk again, 27 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: especially to have an opportunity to talk talk about Abraham Lincoln. 28 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: Well, point you make, which is the United States is 29 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: the longest still functioning large scale democracy in the world. 30 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: What makes it different from the ones that have failed. 31 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: Well, one thing which certainly has helped the United States 32 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: that way are two oceans that has kept us from 33 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: as a democracy being constantly under assault. And there's a 34 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: sense in which those two oceans protected us from the 35 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 2: very beginning. We had, at the beginning of the American 36 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: Republic already an empire on our western border, and that 37 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: was Spain. We had another empire on our northern border 38 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 2: that was Great Britain, and we had the French very 39 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: eager to re establish a beachhead in North America, which 40 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 2: they'd lost in the middle of the eighteenth century. All 41 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 2: of those powers, if they had had greater proximity to 42 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 2: the United States, could have very easily destabilized the United 43 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: States in its early years. Instead, our geography is a 44 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: big help for us. A second big help for us 45 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: is our Constitution. The Constitution struck this remarkable balance between 46 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: power and liberty, and it made liberty something that people prized, 47 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: that people loved, that people enjoyed, and that they were 48 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 2: willing to make tremendous sacrifices for. So when you put 49 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: those two forces together, the fateful friendliness of geography, along 50 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: with the principles captured by the Constitution, then you have 51 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 2: something which weighs in in a very formidable way for 52 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: the protection, the defense, and the fostering of democracy in America. 53 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: The great tragedy, of course, was that in eighteen sixty 54 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 2: one we nearly threw all of that away. 55 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: There's a very interesting and important distinction between liberty, which 56 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: we treasure, and the concept of democracy, which the founding 57 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: fathers were very worried by. Can you describe their sense 58 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: of why pure democracy was a dangerous concept? 59 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: Well, the one major example that they had in front 60 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: of them of a pure democracy was Athens. And they 61 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: didn't really think that Athens was going to give the 62 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: United States very much in the way of direction. And 63 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: for two reasons. One is, the Athenian democracy really amounts 64 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: to nothing more than the citizenry of Athens. We might say, oh, 65 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: three to six thousand people in the Athenian Assembly, and yes, 66 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: it was a direct democracy, but it was also very 67 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: small scale. In fact, it was deliberately small scale, because 68 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: one of the problems of the Athenian democracy was that 69 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: it resisted expansion of its citizen days. For the United 70 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: States just at the very beginning, we were already too 71 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: big in seventeen eighty seven to think about some kind 72 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: of direct style Athenian democracy. So the first objection that 73 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: the founders raised was simply one of scale. We just 74 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: can't do it the way a city state like Athens did. 75 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: The second objection that they would raise was that the 76 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 2: Athenian democracy didn't always do things right. James Madison made 77 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: the point in the Federalist Papers that if every Athenian 78 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 2: had been a Socrates, the Assembly would still have been 79 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: a mob because remember, Socrates, of course, was put to 80 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: death by action of the Athenian Assembly. So when they 81 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: looked at the major example of a democracy, strictly speaking, 82 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: they were very dicey about it. What they preferred, and 83 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: Madison particularly preferred, was to talk about a republic. A 84 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: republican a democracy share one basic thing in common, and 85 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: that is they believe that sovereignty belongs to the people, 86 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: not to kings, not to the nobility, to the people. 87 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: The way, however, the people manifest that sovereignty is different. 88 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: In a democracy, you do it directly. In a republic, 89 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: you do it indirectly through representatives. And Madison presumes that 90 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: the representatives who would make these kinds of decisions would 91 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: be the wiser, the more balanced, the more property the 92 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 2: people who are willing to take responsibility. So the founders 93 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: start out with the assumption that the United States is 94 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 2: a republic rather than a democracy, and that's what's captured 95 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 2: in the Constitution. But it didn't really stay that way. 96 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: That line between democracy and republic was, as it turned out, 97 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: surprisingly poorous and poorous, because, for one thing, they never 98 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: really developed in America that class of elites that Madison 99 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: thought should have the ruling authority. Instead, what you get 100 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 2: is something of the reverse, instead of the representatives limiting 101 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: the follies of the people. In general, you get a situation, 102 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: and this is what took Veil crimes in democracy in America. 103 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: You get a situation where it is the people who 104 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 2: limit what the representatives can do. So very early on 105 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: you get a situation where people are starting to use 106 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: the terms democracy and republic interchangeably as though they were synonyms. 107 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: And as I say, that happens very early so that 108 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: by the time we get to Lincoln, Lincoln himself is 109 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: using the term democracy and republic as though it really 110 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: meant the same thing. 111 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: The founding fathers literally identified the Senate with Rome and 112 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: the Roman Republic and had the judges approved by the Senate. 113 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,119 Speaker 1: In that sense, even today, the very act of having 114 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: a Senate is a step back towards the Roman Republic 115 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: rather than the Athenian democracy. And I think that's some 116 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: of the people tend to forget. 117 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's very true. Even the very name senate. 118 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: This is what has drawn from the example of the 119 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: Roman Republic, where the Senate was in fact the most 120 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: important deliberative body for the republic. 121 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: So given that background, and I gather the enormous sense 122 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: of pride in the American system that existed as Lincoln 123 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: was growing up. How did Lincoln approach the preservation of 124 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: liberty and the preservation of the American Republic as we 125 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: began to drift into a crisis between North and South. 126 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: He started from a baseline that understood that there were 127 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: really two really important things that you needed to understand 128 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 2: in order to have liberty. One was going to be consent, 129 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 2: the consent of the government. He says this very early 130 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 2: in the run towards residential office. This is in eighteen 131 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 2: fifty four, in October, and great speech he gives in Peoria, Illinois. 132 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: He talks about consent, says that's the sheet anchor of 133 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 2: American republicanism. He actually uses the word republicanism there. It's 134 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 2: also the speech where he uses that phrase our ancient faith, 135 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: because there he talks about the Declaration of Independence and 136 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: he insists, the Declaration of Independence is our ancient faith. 137 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: It articulates in its basis exactly what it is America is. 138 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: And he would later say that he'd never had a 139 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: thought politically that was not contained in the Declaration of Independence. 140 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: So for him, you start out with these two baselines. 141 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 2: You start out with the declaration of independence, and especially 142 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 2: you start out with the idea of consent. For him, 143 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 2: that is the basic definition of what a democracy is, 144 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: and in fact that's actually how he captures it at 145 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: one point in eighteen fifty eight, because he makes this 146 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: statement as I would not be a slave, so I 147 00:09:53,640 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democraocracy. 148 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, 149 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: is no democracy. So for him, consent the declaration, that's 150 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: where we start when we're talking about a democracy. 151 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: When you think about that, I've used constantly Lincoln's line 152 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: that with popular sentiment, anything is possible. Without popular sentiment, 153 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: nothing is possible, and trying to get across that, effective 154 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: legislation and effective policies have to grow from the people, 155 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: not be imposed on them. 156 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,239 Speaker 2: This is very much the case because for Lincoln, sovereignty, 157 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: the idea that sovereignty belongs to the people is absolutely key. 158 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: The country, he once said, belongs to the people who 159 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: inhabit it. So when you are talking about what a 160 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: democracy is, you have to start by understanding that sovereignty. 161 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: There's no hierarchy, there's no pyramid. There's no nobles, there's 162 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 2: no king. It is the people themselves who are the sovereigns. 163 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 2: And curiously, I think that the one provision in the 164 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: Constitution which underscores that so dramatically, and it's a provision 165 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 2: that we often miss. It's at the end of Article one, 166 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: section nine, where it says there will be no titles 167 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: of nobility in America. Well, as soon as you've said that, 168 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: you've wiped out centuries of aristocratic, monarchic dictatorial rule. So 169 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: you start with sovereignties. I was sovereignty manifested. It's manifested 170 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: with three things. One is elections, free and fair and frequent. 171 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: Elections are the key to the people's exercise of sovereignty 172 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: and consent, because otherwise you said you can't have free 173 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: government without elections. Because elections are about accountability. Elections say 174 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: to officeholders two years from now, four years from now, 175 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: you're going to have to give an account to the 176 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 2: people of what you've done, so every elected official knows 177 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 2: they're not permanently installed. Majorities are another part of this sovereignty, 178 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: and the people is manifested by majority rule. Majorities rule. 179 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: Now here's the key thing. Majorities rule, but they don't 180 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:17,359 Speaker 2: suppress minorities. Minorities dissent, but they don't subvert the majorities. 181 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 2: And the thing which keeps all of these functioning together 182 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: sovereignty elections majorities is law, because law is what keeps 183 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 2: reason central to a democratic system. Otherwise, if you don't 184 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 2: have reason, then the people wind up being governed by 185 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: what he called passion, And for him, passion is a 186 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: bad word. Passion is what happens when mobs take over. 187 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: Mobs lead to anarchy. Anarchy leads to despotism, and that's 188 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: the end of democracy. So those, for Lincoln really become 189 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: the key features of what he's talking about when he 190 00:12:54,480 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: speaks about democracy. 191 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: It seems to me that Lincoln is the person who 192 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: resurrects the Declation Independence and makes it central. The Constitution 193 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: had been more focused on in the previous sixty or 194 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: seventy years, but Lincoln literally weaves the decreation Independence into 195 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: his entire political philosophy and dates the whole process at 196 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: Gettysburg from this magnificent document. Is it accurate to think 197 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: that Lincoln is the one who reasserts the Declaration as 198 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: the heart of the American system. 199 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: Well, he doesn't do it single handedly. There are many 200 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 2: people who will rise up along with him and who 201 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 2: will say we cannot abandon the declaration. He's articulating the 202 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: point of view that many people held in eighteen sixty one. 203 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: The difficulty is that there were also many people who 204 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 2: had taken a different road. The most obvious of the 205 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 2: people who had taken that different road was John Calhoun 206 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: of South Carolina. And John Calhoun is taking a road 207 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: which says the Declaration of Independence was wrong. All men 208 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: are not created equal, and since all men are not 209 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: created equal, therefore it's legitimate for some of us to 210 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: enslave some of them. We can reduce them to slavery. Well, 211 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: they're not really equal to us. The declaration is wrong 212 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: to us. That sounds simply astonishing coming from a man 213 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: as John Calhoun had been, who had been vice President 214 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: of the United States under two different presidents, by the way, 215 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: and a Secretary of War, a United States senator. But 216 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: he's very frank about saying it. We got it all 217 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: wrong in seventeen seventy six. And the people who rally 218 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: around him to say that the Declaration of Independence is 219 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: wrong are in large measure going to be the slaveholders 220 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: of the South, because that is what helps them to 221 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: justify the very human slavery that Lincoln condemns as a 222 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: contradiction of democracy, because he. 223 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: So clearly condemned it and did so much earlier than 224 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: people normally think. Was he really surprised that the South 225 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't tolerate his victory. 226 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: I think he was to a larger degree than we imagined, 227 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: because remember Lincoln was born in Kentucky, and that he's 228 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: raised in southern Indiana, which is still part of that 229 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: great border section of the country which owes a great 230 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: deal to the South. And Lincoln really believed that he 231 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: understood how Southerners thought, and that led him to conclude 232 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: that all of this talk about secession, about rebellion, all 233 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: of this was really the activity of a very tiny 234 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: cadre of revolutionary figures in the South. And he'll persist 235 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: in thinking that even into the war years. He will 236 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: insist that what makes the Confederacy work, so to speak, 237 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: is that it's a military coup d'etas. The Confederacy is 238 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 2: really just its army. Its officials are just the military, 239 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: and by and large, the generality of the people of 240 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: the South retain their loyalty and commitment to the principles 241 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: of the Declaration. I think he might have been more 242 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: than a little optimistic in that judgment, because, in weighing 243 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: as I do, the way the Confederacy resisted and the 244 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: number of lives lost in the process of that resistance, 245 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: my fear is that there were more people willing to 246 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 2: embrace the song of John C. Calhoun in the South 247 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: than Lincoln wanted to believe. And that is what makes 248 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: the Civil War as protracted and as bloody as it 249 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: turns out to be. 250 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: Pulvanly Southern nationalism if you will guarantee that there would 251 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: be a people's war and that you would have to 252 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: literally destroy their capacity to fight. 253 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: And that eventually is what he begins to see as 254 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 2: a necessity, so that he will turn to someone like 255 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: Ulysses Grant, who understands that the real kind of war 256 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: you need to make is on the Southern capacity to resist. 257 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 2: You're not going to put an end of the war 258 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: simply by marching onto a battlefield and having a data 259 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 2: day with a Confederate army. I mean, for one thing, 260 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 2: by the nineteenth century, armies are so big you just 261 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 2: don't win catastrophic victories like Napoleon might have woned Austerlitz. 262 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: The technology of weapons, the technology of war has changed 263 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 2: so much in the fifty years since Napoleon Bonaparte. So 264 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: you're just not going to win a battle like you'd 265 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: win a football game or a football title. You're going 266 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: to have to destroy the very power to resist. Grantees. 267 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: Sherman sees that, and in the long run, that is 268 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 2: what brings victory to the nation in eighteen sixty five. 269 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: I'm impressed with the fact that confronted with that, Lincoln 270 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: had the sheer moral courage to accept that if that 271 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: was the price of preserving the Union, he was a 272 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: price that had to be paid, no matter how distasteful. 273 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: Yes, but he never wants to pay that in any 274 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: kind of vengeful spirit. He wants the war to end 275 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: so badly that he's willing to meet with Confederate emissaries, 276 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: and he's willing to do this either directly or indirectly, 277 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: as early as the summer of eighteen sixty four. But 278 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 2: he actually goes and meets with three Confederate emissaries at 279 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: Hampton Roads in February of eighteen sixty five, and he 280 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: makes it very clear to them that there's a non negotiable. 281 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: The nogotiable is they lay down their weapons and slavery 282 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 2: is on. But then he says, the way that we 283 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: end slavery, I'm still willing to talk about that as 284 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: a process. We want to get the war over, we 285 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 2: want the killing to stop. He comes back to his 286 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 2: cabinet and tries to explain this to them. The cabinet 287 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 2: tells him, no, that you can't do that. That's not 288 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 2: going to work. But what it says is that Lincoln 289 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 2: felt so very keenly what the war was costing that 290 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: he would entertain, however fleetingly, he would entertain whatever might 291 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: bring peace to the country. My old colleague God or 292 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: bore It, whom you have known Newt, once wrote an essay, 293 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 2: and in that essay he said something it really struck 294 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: me that stayed with me all the many years since, 295 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: And that is in July of eighteen sixty four, a 296 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: Confederate division is threatening Washington, the northern defenses of Washington. 297 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 2: Lincoln goes out to Fort Stevens to see this. Lincoln 298 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: stands up up on the parapet of Fort Stevens, or 299 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 2: every Confederate skirmisher could take a shot at him, and 300 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: God Bor wondered was Lincoln thinking, God, if I am wrong, 301 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: let it end here. And then in the most eloquent 302 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 2: way he comes to the second inaugural aw he could 303 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 2: very easily in that second inaugural address, because the war 304 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: is obviously coming to an end on March fourth, eighteen 305 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: sixty five. Everybody can see that. He could have done 306 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: a victory lap. He could have said, see, we were right, 307 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 2: they were wrong. Time for us to have a big party, 308 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: and he doesn't. He doesn't. Instead, he says, look, this 309 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 2: horrible war that we have endured for four years is 310 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 2: a visitation of God's judgment on all of us, North 311 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: and south. We have all had our hands imbrood in slavery. 312 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: None of us is innocent, and the judgment of God 313 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: on all of us is manifest in this war. And 314 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 2: anyone who wants to dispute that and protest their own 315 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: righteousness and their own clean hands just doesn't know how 316 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 2: God functions. And it's because of that he says, we 317 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: have to proceed with malice toward none and with charity 318 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: for all. Lincoln understands that vengeance is as toxic to 319 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 2: the life of a democracy as any external threat, and 320 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: that is what he is pleading for. Even there at 321 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 2: the end of the war. 322 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: I've gone, as I know, you have to the Lincoln Memorial, 323 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: and it's so stirring and so moving to first read 324 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: aloud the Jettisburg Address, and then to turn and read 325 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: the second Inaugural, which has multiple references to God and 326 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: which really is a sermon. It's probably the most amazing 327 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: of all American inaugural addresses. And you think about what's 328 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: going on in this guy's mind. Having presided over and 329 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: in a sense insisted on a nationwide bloodbath for four 330 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: long years, which could have ended any time. He was 331 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: willing to quit, but because he believed in the Union 332 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: that the very cause of freedom was at stake, he 333 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't quit, no matter the costs. And it must have 334 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: been literally a constant agony for him and totally different 335 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: from what he expected when he ran initially. 336 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: Oh, he understood what was going on in the war 337 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 2: was the biggest question that democracy could be asked, and 338 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 2: that is, are democracies really stable? Are they really permanent? 339 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 2: Are they for real? I mean, there's so many other 340 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: issues that are bound up with the war, there's the 341 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 2: issue of you know, are we a nation or are 342 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 2: we just a league of independent states like the old 343 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 2: Holy Roman Empire. All right, that's one question that has 344 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: to get settled in the war. The other question, big question, 345 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: is slavery. I get email all the time from people 346 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 2: who want to say, well, you know, it was really 347 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 2: about states rights, it was not about slavery. That's balder dash. Everybody. 348 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: Everybody knew in eighteen sixty one that slavery was big 349 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: ticket issue. The seceding states say this over and over 350 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: again in their secession documents. But even bigger than slavery, 351 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 2: even bigger than slavery, is an issue we don't often 352 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 2: reflect upon because we don't need to, and that is 353 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: the survival of the American democracy. New think about it 354 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: this way. In seventeen seventy six, we declare our independence, 355 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 2: we create this democratic republic, and it looks like we 356 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: are the coming thing, because seventeen eighty nine the French 357 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: overthrow monarchical rule, and it looks like this is going 358 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: to be the wave of the future. But then you 359 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: know what happens. The French Revolution descends into the reign 360 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 2: of terror, the reign of terror descends into the dictatorship 361 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 2: of Bonaparte, you get the Napoleonic Wars, you get the 362 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 2: Congress of Vienna, and the restoration of monarchy. In eighteen 363 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: sixty one, the United States is the last large scale 364 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: democratic experiment still functioning in the world. If the United 365 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: States blows it, if we can't hold together, then that 366 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: just simply shows every monarch around the world that democracy 367 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: is a joke, that people cannot govern themselves. And Lincoln 368 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: says this to his secretary John Hay in May of 369 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 2: eighteen sixty one. He says, the fundamental issue that we 370 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: are facing in this war is whether self government is possible, 371 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: or whether every time you hit a big problem a 372 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: democracy is simply going to blow up. So he understood 373 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: the enormous significance of what was happening in the United States, 374 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: and as a matter of fact, you know, so did 375 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 2: people in other places. All the monarchs were cheering on 376 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: the Confederacy. The King of Belgium said that the Confederacy 377 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: is the sign of the return of what he called 378 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 2: the aristocratic monarchical principle in the New World. On the 379 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 2: other hand, the friends of liberty in Europe were cheering 380 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 2: for the Union because they saw in it the future 381 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: of liberty being put to a test. Even slaves working 382 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: in the sugar fields of Cuba were singing along with 383 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 2: whatever songs they sang. They were interpolating these words, Avanza, Lincoln, 384 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: Avanza to esperanza. You are our hope. People understood the 385 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: biggest issue of all was this issue of democracy, and 386 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 2: we enjoy today the fruit of that, sometimes without realizing 387 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 2: just how much in danger it was in the American 388 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 2: Civil War years. 389 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: Your point, I mean, Lincoln captures it himself in the 390 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: Gettysburg Address when he says, now we are engaged in 391 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any 392 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. I mean, 393 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: I think he has sort of captured right there that 394 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: this was the ultimate test to whether humans could govern themselves. 395 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: You might say that the Civil War was looked upon 396 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: by Lincoln as the final exam for American democracy. He 397 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: said there were three things that democracy had to do. 398 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 2: First of all, it had to set itself up. Second 399 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: of all, it had to find a way of establishing 400 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 2: its own governing rules. We do that in the Constitution. 401 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 2: And then it has to show that it's not going 402 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: to fly to pieces from within. And he said, that 403 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 2: is the question that is now before us in this 404 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 2: civil war, and in a lot of ways new I 405 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 2: wrote this book because I think that question is before 406 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: us in every American generation. I mean, Lincoln settles it 407 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 2: in his day, but it gets unsettled from time to time. 408 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: I think we're living in an era of unsettlement. And 409 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 2: one of the reasons, if not the prime reason that 410 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: I wrote the book was to say, can we look 411 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: back to Lincoln and see what Lincoln had to say 412 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: about democracy, to say what he had to say in 413 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 2: praise of it, but also the moments when he points 414 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: out its weak links and it does have them, And 415 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: can we learn for today some of the lessons that 416 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: Lincoln wanted to teach for people in his day. That 417 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 2: to me was the most important thing I could say 418 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 2: in this book. Because you notice Nout, I'm a history person. 419 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 2: This is not a narrative history, all right, This is 420 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 2: not a biography of Lincoln. This is really a series 421 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: of meditations on these themes of democracy that Lincoln himself 422 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: was concerned about. And I write this a way to 423 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: speak to our anxieties today. 424 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: Scott Rasmussen has been doing polling for thirty five years, 425 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: and he recently developed what he calls the elite one percent. 426 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: And these are basically people who went to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, 427 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: et cetera, got a graduate degree. Didn't just go to 428 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: grad school. We've got a degree, earn at least one 429 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, and live in 430 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: a large city. This one percent, he said, the most 431 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: frightening single number in thirty five years of polling. He 432 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: asked the question, would you cheat if you're in danger 433 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: of losing an election? Seven percent of the country says yes. 434 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: Sixty five percent of these people said yes. So you 435 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: have an elite which is basically valuing the imposition of 436 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: its values over the preservation of a system of all 437 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: of us mutually choosing who leads us. I think it 438 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: fits what Lincoln was worried about. Every generation has to 439 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: come back and renew its dedication to this extraordinarily complex 440 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: system that the founding fathers gave us, which happens to work. 441 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: This is why he's at Gettysburg. I mean Lincoln didn't 442 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: leave Washington very often during a Civil war. I mean 443 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: understand the sense in which I mean this. It's a compliment. 444 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: The man was a workaholic. He was at desk, he 445 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 2: was at work all the time. He did not stray 446 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 2: very much out of Washington to go on fundraising tours 447 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 2: or things like that. But he does make an exception 448 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: to come to Gettysburg in November of eighteen sixty three 449 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: for the dedication of the Soldier's National Cemetery there. Why 450 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,479 Speaker 2: does he do that because he has seen something in 451 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 2: that battle. He has seen something in the thirty five 452 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: hundred Union dead who are buried in that cemetery. These 453 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: are ordinary folks, Newt. I mean, you've walked around that cemetery, 454 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: as I have many times, and you see the names there. 455 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: They're not the names of the rich and famous. They're 456 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 2: the names of people who a couple of months before 457 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 2: had gotten off the boat from Europe. They're the names 458 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 2: of clerks and farmers. And yet those ordinary people saw 459 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: something in democracy that they were willing to surrender their 460 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 2: lives for. And that pushes him to say in the 461 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 2: Gettysburg address, it's not us who are going to dedicate 462 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 2: a cemetery here, they've already done that. Rather, it's for 463 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: us to dedicate ourselves to that great task for which 464 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 2: they gave the last full measure of devotion. And that 465 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 2: is a dedication that has to be renewed over and 466 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: over again, and he is confident that it can be renewed. 467 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 2: The statistic you were quoting from Rasmussen is a really 468 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 2: disheartening one. But I don't think that Lincoln would have 469 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: been disheartened, because he understood the democracies have these great capacities. 470 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: Democracies have this tremendous resilience. Democracies have humor. They can 471 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: laugh at themselves like Lincoln did. Democracies have humility. Elites 472 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: and elite governments and aristocracies and one percent are all 473 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 2: built on honor and self righteousness, but not a democracy. 474 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 2: Democracy is built on so many other things that it 475 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: thrives on. And if the people of that democracy will 476 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: see in it the rainbow of promise, then that democracy 477 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 2: will survive, It will prosper, it will have a new 478 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 2: birth of freedom, not, as my friend Rick Kaiser says, 479 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: and rightly, not a birth of new freedom. We're not 480 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: going to rewrite all the rules all over again and 481 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 2: have something entirely different as a governing way of doing things. No, 482 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: we are going to have a renewal, a rebirth of 483 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 2: the original purpose of this democracy. That dedication, I believe, 484 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: springs from the people themselves. We've had faithless elites before. 485 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: We have the tories of the Revolution. Even the slave 486 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: owning oligarchs of the Confederacy talk about in elite. Do 487 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 2: you realize that in the eighteen sixty census the richest 488 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: county in America was Adams County, Mississippi, highest in terms 489 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 2: of net worth. Why slavery plantations. That's where the elite were. 490 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: And they were wrong, and they gambled wrong on rebellion, 491 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: and they lost. And frankly, I'll say for myself, and 492 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 2: probably get some hate mail for it, I'm glad they lost. 493 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 2: I'm glad that Lincoln was right. I'm glad that we 494 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: triumphed as a nation without slavery, and I want us 495 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 2: to continue that way. 496 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: But to balance a little bit, because it gets complex. 497 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: Lincoln may, if necessary, was willing to bend the rules 498 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: to suppress dissent, which he thought could cost us the nation. 499 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: And then, while he was himself a great lawyer, he 500 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: was prepared to say, you can't use the rules to 501 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: justify suicide and therefore they did a number of things, 502 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: from locking up half the Maryland legislature to closing down 503 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: some newspapers, et cetera. How do you balance the necessity 504 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: of survival against the very system that you're trying to 505 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: have survive. 506 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 2: I don't know that there is a balance you can prescribe. 507 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if there's an algorithm for it. I 508 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 2: can explain what Lincoln did. For one thing, Lincoln is 509 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 2: working without a template. We never had a Civil War before, 510 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 2: so he couldn't look up what the precedents were. There 511 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: was no bookstore he could go to and buy a 512 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: copy of Civil War for Dummies. That just wasn't anything. 513 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: He's having to improvise, and improvise in a volatile situation 514 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 2: whose result he can't really easily predict. And Newton, I'll 515 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: say this just in case anyone thinks that I'm a 516 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 2: Lincoln worshiper. He makes mistakes, and I think he made 517 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 2: mistakes in some points. In other points, I think he 518 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 2: makes mistakes on some of the civil liberties issues as well. 519 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 2: When he arrests, for instance, the prominent draft dissenter Clement 520 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 2: Vlandigham in eighteen sixty three, or former representative because they 521 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 2: jerrymandered his district out from under him. Voralandigm gives a 522 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 2: speech in Mount Vernon, Ohio, and it's a pretty incendiary 523 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 2: piece of work, and he's arrested by military authorities, tried 524 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: by a military tribunal. They're going to send him to 525 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: Fort Warren in Boston Harbor to spend the rest of 526 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: the war behind bars. No rid of abeas corpus. And 527 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 2: Lincoln has to justify what happens to Valandigum, and he 528 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 2: does it, I'm sorry to say, on the basis of 529 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 2: what he calls necessity. He says the Constitution is different 530 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: in a time of stress, in a time of necessity, 531 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 2: a time of civil war, than it is in times 532 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 2: of peace. Note he was wrong. He was wrong, and 533 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 2: the wrongness of it becomes apparent a year after the 534 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 2: war in expart Milligan, where the Supreme Court, in a 535 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 2: decision written by a man appointed by Lincoln to the 536 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 2: Supreme Court, it says, no, no, no, the Constitution is the 537 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: same document in peace as it is in war, and 538 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 2: it's still the law of the land under any of 539 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 2: those circumstances. So he makes mistakes. The curious thing is 540 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 2: and This is also part of the explanation. This is 541 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 2: what I think sometimes people miss when they rush to say, oh, 542 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: Lincoln try to be a dictator. No. No, If you 543 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 2: look at the number of these kinds of arrests that happen, military, 544 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 2: tribunal trials and so on like that, the actual number 545 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 2: of them is vanishingly small. Out of a northern population 546 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 2: of twenty two million, maybe there were three hundred arrests 547 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 2: you could point to as political. And in many cases 548 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 2: they're not even under taken at Lincoln's behest undertaken by 549 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: military department commanders. And in almost every case that I'm 550 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 2: aware of, people in order to be released, all they 551 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 2: had to do is to take an oath of allegiance 552 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 2: to the United States. So even when you examine these 553 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 2: cases carefully, even then, even when Lincoln is making a mistake, 554 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 2: it's not a fatal mistake. Of course, it's not a 555 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 2: fatal mistake. Because if it had been a fatal mistake, 556 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: why are we not living in a dictatorship today. No, 557 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 2: the war is over. We go right back to being 558 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 2: what we were. Lincoln hadn't revolutionized anything that way. So yes, 559 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you, I hope it doesn't come 560 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 2: as a surprise. Lincoln did not walk on the Potomac. 561 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 2: All right, We've got him in the Lincoln Memorial there, 562 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 2: but he did not walk on the Potomac. He made mistakes, 563 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 2: and I think he would have said the same thing. 564 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: I've always thought the Jettis sort of address, in addition 565 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: to being poetry and remarkably spiritual, in some way, was 566 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: the kickoff speech of his reelection campaign and sort of 567 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: created an amazing moral dilemma that in the end of 568 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: vote against Lincoln was to vote that these young men 569 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: should have died in vain. Do you think he had 570 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: any sense of framing sixty four when he gave the 571 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: speech in November of sixty three? 572 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: People had suggested then one of the reasons he does 573 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 2: come to Gettysburg is because there's a certain concern that 574 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 2: the governor of Pennsylvania, Republican Governor Andrew Curtin, might have 575 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 2: been a possible rival for the Republican nomination. I think 576 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 2: as pushing things to extremes, Lincoln doesn't betray any sign 577 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 2: while he is at Gettysburg, while he's going to Gettysburg, 578 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 2: while he's coming back from Gettysburg, that he felt that 579 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 2: he needed to start taking out an insurance policy for 580 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 2: his reelection or his renomination. Actually, at that point, in 581 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 2: the fall of eighteen sixty three, things were really looking 582 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 2: very good for him. He had written a public letter 583 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 2: in September of eighteen sixty three in which he talked 584 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 2: about how the Mississippi River, the father of waters, now 585 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 2: flows unvexed to the sea, how the prospects for peace 586 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 2: do not look so far off as they seemed. So 587 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 2: I don't think he's coming to Gettysburg because he's got 588 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 2: reelection anxieties at that point. He will have reelection anxieties 589 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 2: months later when it appears that the war has stalemated, 590 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 2: and that's what will lead him in August of eighteen 591 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 2: sixty four to write a document that he has his 592 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 2: cabinet endures, saying it does not look like this administration 593 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 2: is going to be reelected. But I think in the 594 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 2: fall of eighteen sixty three, he's got other things on 595 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: his mind. He really wants to point us in the 596 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 2: direction of where he thinks peace lies, and the path 597 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,240 Speaker 2: to peace is really going to have to lie through 598 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 2: that action of dedication that he describes in the address. 599 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: Do you think if Lincoln had survived, the reconstruction would 600 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: have been dramatically different. 601 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,439 Speaker 2: Well, it wouldn't have been worse, that's for sure. It's 602 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 2: hard to imagine how we could have botched reconstruction more 603 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 2: and a large measure of that is due to Lincoln's successor, 604 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 2: Andrew Johnson. There are dangers in imposing what if questions. 605 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 2: You know, as a history person, and wherever I go 606 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,839 Speaker 2: people ask me exactly this question, what do you think 607 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,720 Speaker 2: would have happened if Lincoln had served out that second 608 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 2: term to which he was elected in November sixty four. Well, 609 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 2: part of me wants to say, who can answer that question? 610 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 2: You just can't know. But I get asked at so 611 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 2: many times that I'll yield the point. In fact, I 612 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 2: yield that point in the epilogue of the book, and 613 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 2: I say, all right, I'll break my own rule, and 614 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 2: I'll speculate. I think certainly he would have put his 615 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,439 Speaker 2: shoulder to the wheel for black voting. He's already giving 616 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 2: the signs of that in the year before his death. 617 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 2: I think he probably would have looked for a longer 618 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 2: reconstruction period, probably with more involvement of the military, not 619 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,319 Speaker 2: so much because he wanted to suppress the South as 620 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 2: because he wanted to give a chance for an entirely 621 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 2: new political generation to grow up in the South. And 622 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 2: as it is, reconstruction strictly defined, really only last twelve years. 623 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 2: That's not a whole lot of time to do things. 624 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 2: And I think there's probably some value to wondering if 625 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 2: Lincoln would have paid attention to the economic future of 626 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 2: the freed slaves. Here are people who have worked this land, 627 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 2: and it was a tenet of liberal democracy all the 628 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 2: way back to John Locke that you establish ownership of 629 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 2: property by mixing your labor with the land. And I 630 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 2: think he would have looked at lands that are abandoned 631 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 2: by Confederate officials flee into exile as fair game for 632 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 2: assigning to the slaves. He starts to do that on 633 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,800 Speaker 2: the Sea Islands on the coastal strip of Georgia and 634 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 2: South Carolina before the end of the war, and I 635 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,280 Speaker 2: think he probably would have looked to that as giving 636 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 2: the freed slaves not just the vote, but the economic 637 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 2: heft to go along with it to support this advance 638 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 2: into full and equal citizenship. But so I'm going to 639 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 2: put a butt in here, he would only have been 640 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 2: president for three more years if he observes the usual 641 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 2: two term rule, which at that point was not specified 642 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 2: yet in the Constitution, that's not going to be a 643 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 2: whole lot of time to supervise it. So even if 644 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 2: he had had all these intentions that I'm talking about, 645 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 2: he might not have had the time. And even then, 646 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,240 Speaker 2: the challenge of reconstruction was so enormous it's entirely possible 647 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 2: it might have been beyond the grasp even of Abraham 648 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 2: Lincoln to pull off with success. We just don't know. 649 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 2: All that we can say is we probably could not 650 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:08,359 Speaker 2: have done worse than we did. 651 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: You've always been remarkably insightful. Every time I turn to 652 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:19,320 Speaker 1: you for advice. You bring a perspective that's extraordinarily educated 653 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: and at the same time as an amazing amount of wisdom. 654 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: So I really want to thank you for joining me 655 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 1: your new book, Our Ancient Faith Lincoln Democracy in the 656 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: American Experiment. It's so helpful in replacing our understanding of 657 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: how a divided nation can in fact find a way forward, 658 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,240 Speaker 1: and it's very relevant today in terms of the principles 659 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: we should apply. And Our Ancient Faith is available in 660 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: Amazon and the Bookstore US everywhere will be on our 661 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: show page. So I just want to thank you personally 662 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: for taking this kind of time to help educate the 663 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: rest of us. 664 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 2: Always a pleasure, my friend, Always a pleasure. 665 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests, Alan ce Gelzo. You can 666 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: get a link to buy his new book Our Ancient Faith, Lincoln, Democracy, 667 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,720 Speaker 1: and the American Experiment on our show page at newtsworld 668 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. 669 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan and our researcher is 670 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by 671 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at gingwidh three sixty. 672 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newsworld, I hope you'll go to 673 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and 674 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 675 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up 676 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: for my three free weekly columns at gingwistree sixty dot 677 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingriich. This is Nutsworld.