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Speaker 1: Originals.

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Speaker 2: This is an iHeart original. This story can be hard

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Speaker 2: to hear. There's detailed talk of suicide and violence, but

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Speaker 2: we think it's important not to gloss over the reality

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Speaker 2: of what happened to Libby Caswell. Please take care while listening.

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Speaker 2: Feeling safe is a privilege a lot of people in

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Speaker 2: domestic violence relationships don't have, and by the end of

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Speaker 2: her life, a sense of security seemed to have eloted

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Speaker 2: Libby wherever she went. She said as much to her

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Speaker 2: sister Natalie the last time she saw her.

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Speaker 3: And she said she would know I'm here and it's

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Speaker 3: not safe for you, and it's not safe for Zape.

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Speaker 2: And to her friend Nathan the last time she saw him,

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Speaker 2: Libby don't get me and said, I don't think I

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Speaker 2: feel safe with Devin anymore. Her parent aid Colleen picked

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Speaker 2: up on the danger lurking around Libby during their last visit.

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Speaker 4: I felt like she needed to be in a safe place.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't just how Devin treated her, the physical and

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Speaker 2: emotional abuse that made Libby feel unsafe. It was also

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Speaker 2: the people Devin hung out with and the illicit and

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Speaker 2: risky activities he engaged in. Frequently. Devin was accused of

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Speaker 2: stealing many times, particularly it seemed from people he knew,

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Speaker 2: small things like TVs and cell phones, big things like cars, cash, drugs.

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Speaker 2: These kinds of behaviors gave Devin a reputation left a

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Speaker 2: lot of bad will in his wake. They also, by association,

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Speaker 2: added an extra level of danger to Libby's life. Libby

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Speaker 2: admitted as much to Cindy.

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Speaker 5: She talked about it a lot that last you know

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Speaker 5: twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: She was like, he knows some bad people. There's a

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Speaker 2: Facebook post I came across on Libby's page that I

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Speaker 2: keep thinking about. It's from August fourteenth, twenty sixteen. Libby

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Speaker 2: posted a close up photo of herself. You can't see

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Speaker 2: her full face, but her cheek is bruised and her

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Speaker 2: neck has numerous cuts and scratches. Libby writes that two

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Speaker 2: nights earlier, she had been walking to a seven eleven

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Speaker 2: when she was attacked by a stranger. The man forced

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Speaker 2: her behind a building and strangled her until she blacked out.

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Speaker 2: She says she later woke up and discovered that the

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Speaker 2: zipper of her pants was broken. She writes, quote, in

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Speaker 2: between being in and out of consciousness, I remember him

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Speaker 2: mentioning my baby daddy end quote. Devin, Natalie, and Cindy

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Speaker 2: both told me about this incident the first time I

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Speaker 2: met with them. Libby had called Natalie after she came

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Speaker 2: to She.

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Speaker 5: Woke up behind somewhere seven eleven is what she said,

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Speaker 5: and next to.

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Speaker 3: A dumpster or something like that. So she was laying

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Speaker 3: there all night. She had woken up and her pants

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Speaker 3: were down and the zipper was broken.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, she peed on herself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and she was she couldn't freeze very well, and

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Speaker 3: she was trying to get a hold of mom, and

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Speaker 3: she was saying to have mom.

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Speaker 5: Count figure up my picture up down, you know, in

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Speaker 5: kind of a bad part of town.

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Speaker 2: Libby was still visibly terrified when Cindy arrived, and she

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Speaker 2: looked pretty beat up. She told her mom she didn't

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Speaker 2: remember much about what had happened after she was attacked,

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Speaker 2: which could explain why she had urinated on herself. When

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Speaker 2: strangulation victims lose consciousness, it's common to also lose control

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Speaker 2: of their bladders.

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Speaker 5: You know. She had bruises and scratches and tried to

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Speaker 5: talk her and to go and get a make a

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Speaker 5: report and go to the hospital, and she was very

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Speaker 5: scared at that point.

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Speaker 3: She told me a lot of the detail about the

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Speaker 3: guy and that he shouldn't. He was choking her on

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Speaker 3: and off, and she thought that that was going to

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Speaker 3: be the day she died. I remember saying that she

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Speaker 3: thought that Devin had done something to him, and she

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Speaker 3: told this guy that he could do this to her

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Speaker 3: for payment of whatever it was.

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Speaker 5: She thinks that he was sending people to get her.

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Speaker 5: And I used to think maybe she was just paranoid,

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Speaker 5: because you know, maybe she was using again and you

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Speaker 5: know how they get sometimes they just kind of feel

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Speaker 5: like that. But that actually happened to her, and I

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Speaker 5: have pictures of it. She was upset and balling, so

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Speaker 5: I was like, you know, this is this enough? Are

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Speaker 5: you gonna you know, is this going to be the

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Speaker 5: time or are you just gonna die? You know, because

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Speaker 5: you are going to die if you continue this way?

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Speaker 2: From iHeart Podcasts, I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what

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Speaker 2: happened to Libby Caswell. There's a fuzz, you win?

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Speaker 6: So what is she?

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Speaker 3: And I was as fit.

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Speaker 5: Into who wait across?

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Speaker 2: She was just somebody that I really wanted to help.

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Speaker 7: I'd say, if one is a really poor investigation and

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Speaker 7: ten is a perfect investigation.

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Speaker 1: I'd give him a point five.

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Speaker 8: Cindy struck me as somebody that was just getting stonewalled

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Speaker 8: at every turn.

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Speaker 6: Did you ever hear from them again?

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Speaker 8: No? I did no follow up, no, no nothing. The

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Speaker 8: medical examiner ruled Libby's death undetermined. I go, what do

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Speaker 8: you mean? They ruled undetermined?

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Speaker 5: She started advising me, get your stuff together, because this

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Speaker 5: is going to be the fight of your life.

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Speaker 2: Chapter six. The twist.

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Speaker 8: We had reached out, you know, to the medical exam

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Speaker 8: were like, okay, what do you what are you talking about?

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Speaker 8: Why is this undetermined?

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Speaker 2: One of the biggest most perplexing questions I've had with

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Speaker 2: this case is why Libby's death was ruled undetermined by

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Speaker 2: the medical examiner. And it turns out the Independence Police

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Speaker 2: Department wanted that answer too.

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Speaker 8: And there's really no explanation, just yeah, it's undetermined. I

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Speaker 8: had reached out, Oh, I don't know, maybe personally, maybe

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Speaker 8: a half a dozen times.

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Speaker 2: IPD Major Mike Anka said he wanted clarity from doctor

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Speaker 2: Robert pi Tak, the deputy medical examiner who performed Libby's autopsy.

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Speaker 8: I would go at it so non confrontational I'm not questioning.

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Speaker 8: I'm not I'm not doing anything. I just need to

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Speaker 8: know some more details. I need to know a little

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Speaker 8: bit more about what's going on, but why this is undetermined,

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Speaker 8: so we can we can do something different here. Because

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Speaker 8: I don't feel good about this. This sits really really

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Speaker 8: bad inside me that this has been ruled undetermined.

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Speaker 2: Pi Tak doesn't explain his reasoning in the autopsy report,

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Speaker 2: and he since left Jackson County. He now works as

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Speaker 2: a medical examiner in Florida. I've tried to reach him

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Speaker 2: many times unsuccessfully. I've also tried to get comment from

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Speaker 2: the current medical examiner without luck. However, based on my research,

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Speaker 2: I do have a theory about why doctor pi Tak

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Speaker 2: ruled Libby's death undetermined. In twenty thirteen, the Jackson County

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Speaker 2: Medical Examiner's office, including doctor Pytak, came under intense scrutiny.

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Speaker 2: An investigation by the Kansas City Star brought to light

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Speaker 2: that pi Tack had made a series of rulings that

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Speaker 2: he later reversed. One involved a young woman who was

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Speaker 2: found with the trash bag over her head. Pi Tak

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Speaker 2: initially ruled that death a suicide, but it was later

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Speaker 2: changed to undetermined. Another involved a woman whose body was

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Speaker 2: found covered in bleach with a red mark across her neck.

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Speaker 2: PI Tak ruled that death an accident. It was later

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Speaker 2: changed to homicide, and a man confessed. PI Tak defended

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Speaker 2: his work in both cases. Beyond that, the investigation uncovered

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Speaker 2: that the Jackson County Medical Examiner's Office was disregarding best

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Speaker 2: practices and failing to autopsy around three quarters of suspected

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Speaker 2: suicides every year, allowing possible murders to slip through. After

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Speaker 2: all this, it's not hard to imagine that PI tech

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Speaker 2: would be extremely cautious going forward in ruling a death

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Speaker 2: a suicide when the forensic evidence was inconclusive. Whether my

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Speaker 2: theory is true or not, it leads me to another

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Speaker 2: equally perplexing question. Given the undetermined ruling, why did IPD

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Speaker 2: close the case without any further investigation? I asked Major

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Speaker 2: Anka about this.

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Speaker 6: It sounds like this was a very unusual situation that

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Speaker 6: you're rarely, if ever, got these undetermined So this choice

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Speaker 6: to close it at this stage versus like leaving it open.

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Speaker 6: If you could sort of talk me through the reasoning,

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Speaker 6: I think it.

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Speaker 8: Was more more of just there's nothing more at this

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Speaker 8: point I can do because we're not we're not experts

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Speaker 8: when it comes to body examinations. I can look at

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Speaker 8: a body and say that's got bruises, that's got marks,

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Speaker 8: that's got this. I don't have the training and the

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Speaker 8: expertise to say what caused that. So that's what we were

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Speaker 8: trying to get, was we were trying to get that

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Speaker 8: information from the resident expert. We just never got it.

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Speaker 8: So at that point, you know, Detective Spleley I made

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Speaker 8: the determination to close it.

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Speaker 2: With the case closed, Cindy was left to pour over

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Speaker 2: the investigative files herself, looking for clues on how to

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Speaker 2: move forward.

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Speaker 5: The light at the end of the tunnel for me

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Speaker 5: was that the emmy stuck by, you know, undetermined.

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Speaker 2: It seemed to her that the undetermined ruling was an

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Speaker 2: opportunity that forensics might be the key to finding more answers.

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Speaker 9: The medical examiner ruling it undetermined has been a gift

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Speaker 9: in that the door open for another agency to re

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Speaker 9: examine the physical evidence.

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Speaker 2: This is doctor Bill Smock, director of the Clinical Forensic

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Speaker 2: Medicine Program for the Louisville Metro Police Department. He's an

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Speaker 2: expert in cases where a person dies from asphyxia or

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Speaker 2: lack of oxygen. You heard from him a little bit

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Speaker 2: in episode one. After Cindy's private investigator, Jim Murray, had

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Speaker 2: taken Libby's case as far as he could, Cindy reached

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Speaker 2: out to doctor Smock.

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Speaker 5: I told him my story. I said, here's the facts.

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Speaker 5: I have all this information.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Smock spent a month reviewing Libby's case, analyzing the

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Speaker 2: autopsy report, studying hundreds of photos of her body, and

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Speaker 2: even reconstructing her death using a weighted dummy and a belt.

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Speaker 2: He ultimately documented his findings in an eighty four page PowerPoint.

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Speaker 2: It's actually a big reason why I decided to explore

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Speaker 2: Libby's death in this podcast. Smock believes the Jackson County

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Speaker 2: Medical Examiner missed or misinterpreted a slew of forensic evidence

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Speaker 2: in Libby's autopsy, and his analysis is very compelling. Smock

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Speaker 2: began his investigation by looking closely at the marks around

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Speaker 2: Libby's neck.

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Speaker 9: There's physical evidence on Libby's neck that was transferred from

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Speaker 9: the belt ligature to her skin.

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Speaker 2: A ligature is anything that's used to tie or bind something.

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Speaker 2: In this case, doctor Smock is referring to Devon's belt,

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Speaker 2: which was made of fabric, had visible stitching and grommets

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Speaker 2: around the belt holes. When wrapped around Libby's neck, the

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Speaker 2: belt created recognizable patterns on her skin.

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Speaker 9: So the first thing I did was to look at

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Speaker 9: the photos of the belt and determine what part of

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Speaker 9: the belt had to be in what position in order

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Speaker 9: to create that imprint.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Smock explained to me that in a hanging, the

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Speaker 2: place where the ligature is nodded. In this case, the

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Speaker 2: belt buckle will almost always rotate to the back of

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Speaker 2: the head.

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Speaker 1: That is the physics of a hanging.

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Speaker 2: But he found evidence of the belt buckle pressing into

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Speaker 2: the front of her neck.

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Speaker 1: So that was the first thing that jumped out of me, and.

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Speaker 2: There was something else. Typically in a hanging, Smock says,

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Speaker 2: you will see a mark that goes almost all the

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Speaker 2: way around the person's neck, like a ring, almost but

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Speaker 2: not quite the point where the ligature is fastened. Again, here,

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Speaker 2: the belt buckle will raise up off the back of

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Speaker 2: the neck where it's attached to a suspension point, So

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Speaker 2: the mark that's left behind has a gap. The circle

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Speaker 2: is not complete. But this is not what he saw

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Speaker 2: on Libby.

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Speaker 9: What was documented in the autopsy was circumferential marks around

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Speaker 9: the neck.

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Speaker 1: That too, is inconsistent with the hanging.

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Speaker 2: So in Layman's terms, the imprint from the belve went

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Speaker 2: all the way around her neck instead of an unbroken line,

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Speaker 2: and there wasn't a gap.

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Speaker 9: Correct, there was not a gap, and when you hang

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Speaker 9: yourself there is always a gap at the back of

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Speaker 9: the neck.

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Speaker 2: Smock also found a small but crucial detail. The pattern

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Speaker 2: of bruising around Libby's neck was consistent with a belt

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Speaker 2: that laid flat, But when Libby was found the belt

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Speaker 2: around her neck had a single twist in it, meaning

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Speaker 2: that the belt had been twisted once before it was

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Speaker 2: threaded through the buckle. Doctor Smock explained to me that

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Speaker 2: if the belt had a twist in it when Libby died,

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Speaker 2: we should be able to see that mark on her skin.

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Speaker 9: The injuries did not come from a twisted belt. If

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Speaker 9: the belt were twisted when pressure was applied, you would

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Speaker 9: expect a different pattern on Libby's neck.

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Speaker 1: When you look at the imprints that are there.

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Speaker 9: The belt wasn't twisted, so that tells me that at

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Speaker 9: some point the belt was placed back on her neck

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Speaker 9: and it was.

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Speaker 2: Twisted discovery, in particular, gave credence to a theory doctor

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Speaker 2: Smock was developing about Libby's death, one that he didn't

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Speaker 2: think had been considered by the Jackson County Medical Examiner's

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Speaker 2: Office or the IPD. That the belt had been used

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Speaker 2: a number of times on Libby's body.

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Speaker 9: The belt that was around Libby's neck is somewhat unique

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Speaker 9: in that it has gromets holes in the belt. When

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Speaker 9: I look closely at the autopsy photos and the scene photos,

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Speaker 9: there's evidence of these gromet marks in areas other than

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Speaker 9: where the belt was around her neck.

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Speaker 1: So what that tells me is.

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Speaker 9: That at some point those grameuts created other pattern injuries,

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Speaker 9: which is why the belt, in my opinion, was a

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Speaker 9: plaid at least twice, maybe even three times.

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Speaker 2: Smock suspects not only that someone put the belt around

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Speaker 2: Libby's neck, but that they also wrapped that same belt

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Speaker 2: around Libby's chest, trying to restrain her and maybe even

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Speaker 2: use the force of their own body weight to pull

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Speaker 2: the belt tighter.

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Speaker 9: There's a unique bruising pattern right in the middle of

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Speaker 9: her back, which to me appears to be consistent with

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Speaker 9: a bootprint or a shoeprint. How does that get there?

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Speaker 9: Doesn't get there from a suicidal hanging.

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Speaker 2: This is a lot to take in and when I

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Speaker 2: first read it in the pdf Smock sent me, it

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Speaker 2: stopped me cold. If Smock is right, this being restrained

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Speaker 2: then strangled is a very violent and a very scary

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Speaker 2: way to die. And it means that though doctor Smock

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Speaker 2: agrees with the Jackson County Medical Examiner's opinion that Libby

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Speaker 2: ultimately died from asphyxia, he has a very different opinion

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Speaker 2: about how it happened.

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Speaker 9: It was clear that the physical evidence, principally the marks

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Speaker 9: on Libby's neck, were not consistent with a suicidal hanging,

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Speaker 9: were consistent with a homicide.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Smock took his conclusion a step further.

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Speaker 9: Libby's death was in fact a homicide stage to look

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Speaker 9: like a suicide. There is no doubt that Libby was

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Speaker 9: murdered and the scene was altered and things were staged.

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Speaker 2: A staged murder is a big accusation. The implication is

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Speaker 2: that someone or someone's murdered Libby then methodically staged the

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Speaker 2: scene to send authorities in the wrong direction. Smock believes

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Speaker 2: this theory explains a lot of the evidence at the scene,

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Speaker 2: including the mark on the top of the bathroom door.

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Speaker 9: There is evidence of green fibers on the top of

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Speaker 9: the door, so I do think at some point the

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Speaker 9: belt was over the top of the door if she

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Speaker 9: was hanging.

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Speaker 1: I do not think she hung herself.

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Speaker 9: I think it would take two individuals to place her

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Speaker 9: body up there. When you look at the location of

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Speaker 9: the tub and the door, I think it's physically impossible

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Speaker 9: for an individual to stand on the side of the tub,

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Speaker 9: put the belt over there, close the door, and then.

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Speaker 1: Jump off stage.

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Speaker 2: Crime scenes are pretty rare, but often have telltale signs

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Speaker 2: if you know what to look for. Smock wanted to

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Speaker 2: know if IPD had ever considered the possibility. Maybe he

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Speaker 2: thought it wasn't even on their radar, which is.

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Speaker 9: Why I called the Independence Police Department. I talked to

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Speaker 9: Captain Mike Anka. I told Mike, what I would like

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Speaker 9: to do is to meet with you, your detectives, the

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Speaker 9: current medical examiner, and your local prosecutor, present the case

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Speaker 9: and why, in my opinion, based upon the physical evidence alone,

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Speaker 9: this is a homicide stage to look like a suicide.

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Speaker 2: IPD Major Mike Anka told doctor Bill Smock that he

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Speaker 2: was eager to hear his analysis of Libby's case. Alca

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Speaker 2: said that by this point, two years after Libby's death,

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Speaker 2: IPD had exhausted everything they could do.

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Speaker 8: He had reached out and I had a lot of

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Speaker 8: conversations with him. I set up the meeting with him

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Speaker 8: and the current medical examiner, and then we had the prosecutor.

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Speaker 8: We had Cindy in the room.

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Speaker 5: I came alone. I came straight from work. Bill asked

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Speaker 5: me not to say too much, and so I sat quietly.

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Speaker 5: And it was just a big room, and it was

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Speaker 5: packed with detectives, police officers, Emmy, the prosecuting attorney, Michael Hunt.

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Speaker 2: The meeting takes place on January thirteenth, twenty twenty, in

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Speaker 2: a third floor conference room of the Independence Police Department's

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Speaker 2: downtown headquarters. Doctor Pytak had left the department by then,

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Speaker 2: but the county's chief medical examiner, Marius Treu attends in

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Speaker 2: his place. Doctor Bell Smock arrives with Beth Weekly, a

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Speaker 2: forensic nurse who had also studied Libby's case. And it

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Speaker 2: starts off well enough.

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Speaker 9: It was very cordial. Invited in as a law enforcement colleague.

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Speaker 9: I was there to present the case and answer any questions.

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Speaker 2: Smock brings the PowerPoint presentation he'd made of his findings,

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Speaker 2: which includes forensic analysis, crime scene studies, and photos of

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Speaker 2: a recreation he did of Libby's injuries.

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Speaker 9: Was circumferential marks around the point those gramas created other

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Speaker 9: pattern injuries.

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Speaker 1: Beljuries did not come from a twisted belt.

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Speaker 2: The prosecutor and the detectives in the room take it

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Speaker 2: all in, but according to Anka, the chief medical examiner

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Speaker 2: pushes back.

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Speaker 8: Doctor Smock had his you know, his theories and his beliefs.

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Speaker 8: He would say the belt caused this and this, and

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Speaker 8: then the other doc said, yeah, the belt could have

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Speaker 8: caused this and this and this, but don't you agree

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Speaker 8: that this could have caused this? And this turned into

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Speaker 8: the two doctors kind of debating back and forth. Obviously,

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Speaker 8: both of them are trained, both of them are very knowledgeable,

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Speaker 8: but a lot of what they were talking about was

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Speaker 8: way beyond anybody else's in the room's skill set knowledge.

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Speaker 8: We didn't get anything out of it other than some

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Speaker 8: of the injuries could have been caused by homicide. Some

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Speaker 8: of the injuries could have been caused by suicide. There

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Speaker 8: was never a definitive answer as to what we were looking.

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Speaker 2: At but Beth Weekly, the forensic nurse, remembers the situation

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Speaker 2: a little differently.

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Speaker 10: I remember the medical examiner. I found him very defensive

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Speaker 10: and abrasive, and he's entitled to his opinion that I

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Speaker 10: remember him being extremely defensive about anything that contradicted. In

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Speaker 10: the end, it was frustrating to kind of see this resistance,

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Speaker 10: and frankly, I just think it boils down to no

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Speaker 10: one wants to admit they did something wrong.

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Speaker 2: Cindy told me she felt the same way.

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Speaker 5: They seemed put off that anybody was questioning that they

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Speaker 5: didn't have the skill to investigate this properly.

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Speaker 1: They were very.

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Speaker 5: I would say, almost rude in laughing us off.

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Speaker 9: At the end, it was clear I didn't convince them.

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Speaker 9: The medical examiner said, yeah, it may be, but he

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Speaker 9: said it wasn't my case. I wasn't there, and we

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Speaker 9: need to contact the pathologists who did the autopsy. So

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Speaker 9: I made that effort and no response.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Smock and his team were left with little hope

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Speaker 2: that Libby's case was going to get any more attention

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Speaker 2: from IPD, and without a new investigation, the prosecuting attorney

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to pursue charges.

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Speaker 9: The prosecutor. Mister Hunt said, yeah, it may be a homicide,

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Speaker 9: but if I can't win it, I'm not going to

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Speaker 9: take the case.

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Speaker 2: I asked the Jackson County Prosecutor's office about this meeting,

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Speaker 2: but they declined to comment.

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Speaker 10: We left and exchanged pleasantries and said we'll be in touch.

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Speaker 10: But you could sense that it was not anything that

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Speaker 10: they were pumped up about to like, yes, let's reopen

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Speaker 10: this up and get excited about to make a bad

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Speaker 10: situation better.

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Speaker 9: I felt that that was the cowards way out, that

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Speaker 9: it was going to be an uphill battle to have independence.

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Speaker 9: Whether it's the Jackson County Prosecutor's Office or the police

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Speaker 9: department want or be willing to take a closer look

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Speaker 9: at the evidence that I presented to them. Libby's case

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Speaker 9: stands out in my mind and keeps me awake at night.

390
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Speaker 9: We see ineptitude, inadequate investigation, turning a blind eye to

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Speaker 9: the physical evidence on the part of the independence police department,

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Speaker 9: on the part of the Medical Examiner's office, on the

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Speaker 9: part of the Prosecutor's office. This case, of doing thousands

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Speaker 9: of cases in my career, stands out as the most

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Speaker 9: clear staged homicide and having been involved in thousands of

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Speaker 9: investigations in my career, this is the one that says

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Speaker 9: you did not do your job.

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Speaker 1: You could have done it.

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Speaker 9: We have a young woman who has been murdered and

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Speaker 9: those three agencies are failing to do the right thing.

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Speaker 2: For Cindy. The meeting was another gut punch.

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Speaker 5: In the lobby of the police department, there's a huge

403
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Speaker 5: glass thing that reads to serve and protect the citizens

404
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Speaker 5: of Independence and it, I.

405
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Speaker 2: Mean, it just.

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Speaker 5: Goes totally against what my experience was as a human

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Speaker 5: being living in Independence. I left there just totally discouraged.

408
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Speaker 5: And by the time I got home, Bill was calling

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Speaker 5: me and he said, well that didn't go as I planned,

410
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Speaker 5: you know, But he said, let me tell you this

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Speaker 5: so Cindy, we don't give up this in the end.

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Speaker 2: And good on his word, Doctor Bill Smock wasn't taking

413
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Speaker 2: no for an answer. He was already pursuing another angle.

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Speaker 7: After Bill got involved in it. Then he reached out

415
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Speaker 7: to me and to the rest of our team and said,

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Speaker 7: I believe we've got a stage crime scene.

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Speaker 2: Casey Gwinn is a former prosecutor who has spent his

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Speaker 2: career working on how to better serve domestic violence victims.

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Speaker 2: He's one of the founders of the domestic violence organization

420
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Speaker 2: Alliance for Hope International, where Bill Smock also consults.

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Speaker 7: Bill Smock really took the forensic side of this, and

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Speaker 7: the rest of our team took the victimology, which is

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Speaker 7: really the history of a relationship and understanding the history

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Speaker 7: of the life of the victim and her relationship to

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Speaker 7: the potential suspect.

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Speaker 2: Gwinn was appalled at the lack of background investigation that

427
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Speaker 2: IPD had done in Libby's case.

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Speaker 7: Why wouldn't you do a comprehensive investigation when you've got

429
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Speaker 7: a history of domestic violence and then you've got a

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Speaker 7: dead body. That should be a cardinal rule in every

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Speaker 7: law enforcement agency in America. That is homicide investigation, suspicious

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Speaker 7: death investigation.

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Speaker 1: One oh one.

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Speaker 7: You always want to know that entire history, and you

435
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 7: should want to know what his history is with other

436
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 7: women as well, And you would have to interview You'd

437
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 7: have to identify his prior girlfriends, you'd have to interviews friends,

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Speaker 7: You've have to introduce family members.

439
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: Since the mid nineteen nineties, Alliance for Hope has primarily

440
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: focused on preventing domestic violence homicides, But in twenty seventeen

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00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: the organization expanded into a different type of work, consulting

442
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: on cases involving domestic violence victims where the crime scene

443
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 2: was potentially staged. These cases come to them directly from victims'

444
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: families like Cindy, and also from prosecutors and police across

445
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: the country who are stumped on how to proceed. Alliance

446
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: for Hope believes there may be hundreds, maybe even more

447
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: than a thousand deaths of domestic violence victims in the

448
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: US each year that are going undetected, written off by

449
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: local law enforcement as unfortunate accidents or tragic suicides, when

450
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: in actuality, there is a perpetrator who has never been

451
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 2: held to account.

452
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 7: We now call this the Hidden Homicides Project. Our focus

453
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 7: is on cases where there is a death after a

454
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 7: history of domestic violence. We now have about twenty active

455
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 7: cases at the present time. Every time we speak somewhere,

456
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 7: we are learning of more cases.

457
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 2: They recently had their first major success a case in

458
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 2: Colorado where after doctor Smock got involved, a husband was

459
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: convicted of murdering his wife seven years after he tried

460
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 2: to make her death look like an accident to help

461
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: law enforcement understand how to spot such cases. Alliance for

462
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: Hope has come up with a checklist of ten red

463
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: flags commonalities among the stage murders that've uncovered. When Gwynn

464
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: compared his checklist to Libby's case, he was shocked.

465
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 7: Number one the victim dies prematurely or the victim dies unexpectedly.

466
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 7: Number two the scene appears to be a suicide.

467
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 6: We'll go on to the bathroom, and I found her

468
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 6: conscious and it felt wrapped around her neck.

469
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 7: Number three one partner wanted to end the relationship.

470
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: All she wanted to do was clean up and get

471
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: things right and get away from him.

472
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 8: That was literally her goals on her table every time

473
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 8: we talked to her.

474
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 7: Number four there was a prior history of domestic violence.

475
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 5: That time he laid on her and she couldn't breathe.

476
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 5: I called nine one one.

477
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 7: Number five the victim was found dead in a home

478
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 7: or in a place where they've been living or staying.

479
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 5: They won the room so they can have some alone time.

480
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 7: Number six the victim is found by the current or

481
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 7: previous partner and found Number seven the prior history of

482
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 7: domestic violence includes an act of strangulation or suffocation when they.

483
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: Would get in fights and it would be really bad.

484
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: He would push her, hold her down, and choke her.

485
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 7: Number eight the partner is the last person to see

486
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 7: the victim alive. I took a shower, remember.

487
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 4: Laying on the bed and passing out.

488
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 7: Number nine the partner has control of the crime scene

489
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 7: before the police arrived at eleven am this morning, and

490
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 7: then at that point you remained as sleep at the

491
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 7: entire time that you woke up this evening. Number ten,

492
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 7: the body has been moved or the scene or evidence

493
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 7: has been altered in some way, but he's.

494
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 8: All the way clear on the right side of the toilet.

495
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: Steel just didn't make sense.

496
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 7: We have every factor that we've identified in the Libby

497
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 7: Caswell case. That's enough for me to say, these red

498
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 7: flags are not just waving, they're screaming at you.

499
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: If one is.

500
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 7: A really poor investigation and ten is a perfect investigation,

501
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 7: I'd give him a point five.

502
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 8: Initially I thought somebody killed Lobby, whether it was Devin,

503
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 8: whether somebody else. Obviously he was the most logical because

504
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 8: he was there. But you know, you can't just you

505
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 8: can't let those opinions influence you have to That's fine

506
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 8: to have them but you have to you have to

507
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 8: go by the facts and the evidence that you have.

508
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: Now that I'd heard doctor Smock and Casey Gwinn's criticisms

509
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: of IPD, I wanted to ask Major Mike Anka about

510
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: how short their investigation was and how they seemed to

511
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: make up their mind so quickly that it was suicide.

512
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: I mean, they told Cindy that night that Libby had

513
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: killed herself. Unca brought me back to the crime scene.

514
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: When IPD first got to the motel.

515
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 8: We came out working this like a homicide. Hence why

516
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 8: we called a pio, why we called a captain, Why

517
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 8: we called two sergeants and two squads of detectives.

518
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 6: So you're at the scene, there's a bunch of people

519
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 6: have arrived, right, There's like over a dozen people there.

520
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 6: They're processing the scene. We're still approaching it as a

521
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 6: potential homicide. What happens next, like does that change that

522
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 6: evening that it starts to move towards what had happened?

523
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 8: Is so, I, along with several others, had responded back

524
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 8: to the station we were in in the process conducting interviews.

525
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 8: We were in our briefing room and I had gotten

526
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 8: a phone call from the sergeant on scene, and he

527
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 8: had told me that you're standing there with our crime

528
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 8: scene tech and the medical examiner was on scene, and

529
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 8: the medical examiner had said, everybody slowed down. This is

530
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 8: not a homicide. This is a suicide. So that's kind

531
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 8: of what slowed down and changed gears, is that the

532
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 8: medical examiner's on scene and they're saying, you guys are

533
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 8: blowing this out of a portion.

534
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: But the medical examiner that Anca's referring to wasn't a

535
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: medical examiner at all. She wasn't a doctor. She was

536
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: a recent college grad in an entry level position at

537
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: the Jackson County Medical Examiner's office called investigator one. And

538
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: this comment she allegedly made wasn't noted anywhere in her

539
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: report that night, nor in any of ipd's notes.

540
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 6: Let me ask you a question about that. The medical

541
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 6: examiner on seeing it was a medical examiner's investigator, right,

542
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 6: not medical examiner.

543
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's the way they operate here in the state.

544
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 6: To send out an investigator. And when I look at

545
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 6: the contact sheet that shows who was on seeing that night,

546
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 6: I can see who that investigator was, and she it

547
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 6: was a woman who was twenty four years old every

548
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 6: stout there. It looks like she'd been working there for

549
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 6: about six months. And I asked her about this to

550
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 6: see what her recollections were, and she said she didn't

551
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 6: remember the scene, that she'd been to a bunch that

552
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 6: she said it was not her all to determine manner

553
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 6: of death, and that her role as an investigator was

554
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 6: just to gather the evidence and bring it back for

555
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 6: the autopsy. So she really pushed back and said it

556
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 6: wasn't up to her to guide the investigation in any direction.

557
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 8: Right, No, And that's exactly true, and that's why we

558
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 8: finished what we were doing. But like I kind of

559
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 8: mentioned earlier, and I'm not I don't want I'm not

560
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 8: going to get into pinning us against the medical examiner

561
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 8: or nothing like that, because we we've got a good

562
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 8: working relationship.

563
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: Unca went on to explain that IPD didn't just immediately

564
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: stop their work after hearing the perspective of Investigator one,

565
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: but nonetheless it did change how they were thinking about

566
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: the case.

567
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 8: I told the guys, we're going to go ahead and

568
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 8: we're going to finish everything we're doing. But medical examiners

569
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 8: saying that this is a suicide, this is not a homicide.

570
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 8: So that's that's what changed the year. That's what went

571
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 8: from you know, we were we were running a gun

572
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 8: and on it like a homicide, and we were inness

573
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 8: and shout Dad.

574
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 2: This question, what happened to change the focus of the

575
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: investigation from homicide to suicide. It's one that's been nagging

576
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: at me since I first started working on Libby's story.

577
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: I figured there had to be something more, something I

578
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: wasn't getting. I spoke to Major Anka for more than

579
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 2: an hour. He was unfailingly polite the entire time, listened

580
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: to my questions and answered each one. He seemed forthright,

581
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: and honestly, I got the impression he really did want

582
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: to help. But the answer I kept getting about what

583
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: changed that night was simply unsatisfying. It felt to me

584
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: like the police, without realizing what they were doing, might

585
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: have been primed to deem this case of suicide from

586
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 2: the beginning because of simple confirmation bias.

587
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 7: The challenges for law enforcement really start right at the

588
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 7: scene where they first arrive.

589
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 2: Here's Casey Gwyn again.

590
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 7: Face this framing of it as a suicide or as

591
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 7: an accident scene, and that confirmation bias then just begins

592
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 7: to expand moment by moment, day by day, and as

593
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 7: they pass on information to the next investigator or the

594
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 7: next medical person or the forensic medical examiner. It seems

595
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 7: that that confirmation bias that starts at the scene of

596
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 7: the crime contaminates the rest of the investigation in many

597
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 7: of these cases.

598
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: In Libby's case, Devin called in her death as a suicide,

599
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,479
Speaker 2: and then at the scene the medical examiner's investigator also

600
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: allegedly remarked that it looked like a suicide. Back at

601
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: the station, Devin and Nick both talked about Libby's suppose

602
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 2: suicidal ideations, and then IPD found the mark on top

603
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: of the motel bathroom door. Because of confirmation bias, it

604
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 2: might have been easy for IPD to latch onto evidence

605
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 2: that confirmed the suicide story and overlook evidence that pointed

606
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: the other way, and this kind of thinking could have

607
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: permeated the choices IPD made throughout their investigation, choices that

608
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: to outside experts like Casey Gwynn and doctor Smock now

609
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 2: seem questionable. For example, IPD chose not to explore Devon's

610
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: alibi that he had slept all day found to be

611
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: dead when he woke up around eight pm and then

612
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: went directly to his dad's house, an alibi that was

613
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: made ever more flimsy when Devon was caught on camera

614
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 2: seemingly asking his dad and stepmom to lie about his whereabouts.

615
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: IPD could have confirmed Devon's alibi by going back to

616
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: the sports stadium in to get the security footage from

617
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 2: the parking lot, but when I asked Anka about this,

618
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: he admitted the crime scene investigator made a mistake.

619
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 8: He was instructed to go back and get that later

620
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 8: failed to do so. Never did. That's the one piece

621
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 8: that would have been wonderful to have that would put

622
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 8: my mind ease. Is Devon out walking around all day long,

623
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 8: in and out. He's saying he slept. If if we

624
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 8: had that video, we could tell he was out walking

625
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 8: around if any you know, obviously many things you know

626
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 8: to go back and do and do different. That video

627
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 8: is probably the number one. Yeah, Yeah, we were. We

628
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 8: wish we'd had that video.

629
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 2: In the days and weeks after Libby's death, IPD could

630
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: have conducted more interviews, talk to those who knew Libby

631
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: and Devin best what Casey Quinn called victimology and suspectology

632
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: one oh one to their credit. IPD did eventually conduct

633
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: more interviews in twenty nineteen after Cindy's private investigator, Jim Murray,

634
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 2: brought his concerns to their attention.

635
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 8: When Jim got involved and I started talking to Cindy,

636
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 8: the case that was opened back up. I gave it

637
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 8: a fresh of eyes with another detective and another sergeant.

638
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 2: One of the things IPD did was follow up on

639
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: a tip that Devin confessed to Libby's murder to his

640
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 2: new girlfriend, but this was a dead end. The new

641
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: girlfriend wouldn't talk, and when IPD interviewed her mom and

642
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 2: her sister, each of them denied having heard anything. The

643
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: new detectives assigned to Libby's case also interviewed Devin again.

644
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 2: They asked him to go over the events of that night,

645
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: and Devin told them basically the same story.

646
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 4: Got out of the shower, Libby was going to take

647
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 4: a shower, and Libby for a talking to an argument

648
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 4: about how she didn't think that he was going to

649
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 4: be able to stop using.

650
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: Police press him on a few details like the broken

651
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: watch and the argument overheard by another motel guest, but

652
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 2: the most notable difference about this second round of questioning

653
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: is that they specifically ask him about domestic violence.

654
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: Is it possible that you messed up around the stake?

655
00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 4: Now, It's not possible because I know that that's not me.

656
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 4: I've never in my life where when you get real high,

657
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 4: I've never been that high that they're not you though

658
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 4: I've never it is, it's never.

659
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 1: It's not that.

660
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: It's not that I would never harm a woman, never, never,

661
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 4: no matter, no matter live. I got sad wounds in

662
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 4: my back from.

663
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 8: Living hitting me with a steak knife.

664
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 4: Never did I put hands on her.

665
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 1: If you're rest, I've never not want.

666
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 4: My life and I would do anything in my power

667
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 4: bringing back to hit me with the steak knife ore time.

668
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying to given what I have

669
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 2: uncovered about Devin's abusive behavior, domestic disturbance, what you've heard

670
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: in this podcast, what IPD would have had in their

671
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 2: own files, distance two subjects screaming and fighting or something

672
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: hit the wall. The extent of their questioning feels woefully

673
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: brief and under researched. They don't press him on any specifics,

674
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: and so that's it. The case is soon closed again

675
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: as a suicide. When I asked Uncle about this, he

676
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: said it was out of his hands. Even with the

677
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: work done by Jim Murray, the presentation by doctor Bill Smock,

678
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: and the additional investigation by IPD, they didn't have enough

679
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: evidence to convince the Prosecutor's office to move forward.

680
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 8: I feel having kids myself, and I don't want to

681
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 8: get dramatic, but I'm broken hearted for Cindy. I can't

682
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 8: imagine what she's going through and what she's went through

683
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 8: and what she's continuing to go through. So the human

684
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 8: side of me is heart wrenching.

685
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 2: UNCA has been open to the many outsiders, including me,

686
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: who have wanted to re examine Libby's case.

687
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 8: So I'll just be candid and I don't have that arrogant,

688
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 8: condescending nature about me. I don't put myself on a

689
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,959
Speaker 8: pedestal above anybody. I'm probably one of the last ones

690
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 8: in the room that bought that this was a suicide,

691
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 8: that this was an homicide. So for me, if you know,

692
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 8: if you can come up with something we haven't thought of,

693
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 8: by all means, let me have it.

694
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 2: Coming up on what happened to Libby Caswell, we learn

695
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: about Devin's life both before and after Libby. If anybody

696
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 2: knows Devin it's me because I'm the one that raised him,

697
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 2: and Devin reacts to the shadow of suspicion he's been

698
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 2: living under.

699
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 4: Is ruining my life and people need to leave me alone.

700
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: And that's that's how I feel about it, because I'm

701
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 4: the one who lost someone dearly to me.

702
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 8: I think from ring and.

703
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: Keep you grown, don't.

704
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: What Happened Toby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted by

705
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: me Melissa Jelson, with writing and story editing by Marisa

706
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 2: Brown and Lauren Hanson. Episodes are edited by Jeremy Thal

707
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: and Carl Catle. Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch. For

708
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are Jason English and Katrina Norvel,

709
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: with our supervising producer Carl Catle. Fact checking by Maya Shukri.

710
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: Our theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed

711
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 2: by Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Woolf. Original music by Aaron

712
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: Kaufman with additional music by Jeremy Thal. Our episodes are

713
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: mixed and mastered by Carl Catle. To find out more

714
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: about my investigation or to send a tip, please email

715
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: me at What Happened to Libby at gmail dot com.

716
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening