WEBVTT - KT Tunstall 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.520 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:17.759 My guest today is Katie Tunstall. Katie, how's your hearing? 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:27.520 Fifty great, fifty percent completely caput. So yeah, you probably 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.360 know that I lost my hearing a halfway through a 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:34.959 tour in twenty eighteen on my left side and it's 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:35.680 never come back. 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:39.040 Tell me a little bit more, Tell me how you 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:39.800 discovered it. 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:44.200 Yeah, it was obviously it was a massive shock. I'd 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.840 got some top end hearing loss about ten years earlier, 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.240 and I always say it's not the Spice Girl's fault, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.240 but it was after going to a Spice Girls show 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.240 in like Wembley. But I'm friends with Sporty and she'd 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.520 given me these amazing seats up front and I was 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:03.360 very close to the speaker. I don't think it was 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:05.560 necessarily just that. I think I was just burnt out. 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:10.120 My nervous system was struggling touring incessantly, and I'd just 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:12.480 come off a long haul flight and I noticed that 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.040 I sort of lost top end hearing and I got 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:20.759 very bad tenetus after that, and I after whatever happened, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.640 you know, over that twenty four hours, and you know, 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:31.119 tonightus as it's pronounced in the US is extremely frustrating 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:33.920 and very difficult for a musician. And when I first 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.120 got it, it was it was perfect Middle Sea pitch 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.560 and I could tune my guitar to the tenetus. And 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:43.080 then I kind of thought that was that that I 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.200 just had a bit of a tough ear. And then 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.040 ten years later I was on tour and I was 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.040 halfway through the tour and I wear earplugs on the 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.520 tour bus, and I took my ear plugs out and 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:55.760 on my left side, it just didn't make any difference, 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.120 and it just felt like my ear was underwater. And 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:05.240 I'd suffer sensorin neural sudden hearing loss ss HL, which 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.840 basically means they have no fucking idea why you've just 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:13.560 lost your hearing, and they like shot some steroids into 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:15.800 my ear drum, which can sometimes work, but it didn't 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.200 for me. And yeah, so. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.560 What's a prognosis never going to come back? 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:28.840 I think losing my hearing In twenty twenty five, there's 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:33.360 more of a likelihood that something might happen where it 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.680 can be restored. I don't know, maybe stem cells, maybe 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:41.360 some new tech, you know, stick a robot in my 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.840 ear see what happens. But at the same time, I 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:50.440 find that I've really calibrated it to in a way 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:54.200 that it doesn't feel as impactful as you might think. 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:58.840 I've also got a profoundly deaf younger brother. My younger brother, 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.640 Dan was born completely deaf, and he had a cochlear 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.200 implant when he was like in his twenties. But he's 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.839 a tennis coach and I remember telling him, Oh, my god, 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.239 I've lost my I've lost my hearing in one ear 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.840 and he just did this like little tiny violin and 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:18.280 he was like, oh, for you. And I was like, 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.160 fuck you, man, you're not a musician. 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:27.000 If your brother was born deaf, how is that growing 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:27.920 up in the family. 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.440 It's such a good question, and people don't ask me 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:36.280 that very often, And I think it goes for any sibling, 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.600 especially if the sibling is younger than you. But I 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.760 think it probably it doesn't have a huge impact the 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:44.960 order that you're in in a family. But you're always 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:46.560 going to be more you know, you're going to as 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.240 a sister, you're going to be protective of your little 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:56.160 brother usually, And it was really interesting to me. He 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.080 was born when I was four, and our family is 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.160 very interesting because I'm adopted. My older brother is adopted, 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:04.640 and my mom was told she couldn't have kids, and 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.920 then she got pregnant and she had my little brother 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:08.880 and he was born deaf, and it kind of leveled 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.360 our family playing field where it's like, yeah, boohoo, you've 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.119 got given up your rescue human being, but this guy 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:19.480 can't hear, so you know, all focus was really on 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:24.120 Dan and making sure that he was loved and supported 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.680 in the family. But I was very close to Dan, 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:32.359 and it was amazing watching people ignore him as we 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.280 were going off and have these conversations, just just sort 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.680 of not care that he was not part of it. 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.680 So I would always be translating constantly, and I think 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.400 just from a communication point of view, that's been really 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:51.520 fundamental for me. Like of just it's also like when 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.520 I meet fans after shows, I can just feel that 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:58.599 some specific fans that come and say hi are in 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:00.960 a lot of pain, or they've had a lot of damage, 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.960 or they have got some sort of disability, and I 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.240 always like want to go to that person first. And 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.279 I'm not like Mother Treys or anything, but I just 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.560 I feel very sensitive to that because my. 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:17.120 Brother so did everybody in the family learn sign language. 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:22.920 Now, interestingly, we just my mom and dad decided because 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.039 we grew up in such a small town in Saint 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.039 Andrew's in Scotland, it was only like eleven thousand people 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.599 or something. They realized that if he spoke sign language, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.600 he wouldn't be able to speak to anyone. No one 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.960 else speaks sign language in our little town. So they've 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:42.159 kind of quite bravely decided to teach him how to speak, 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.359 which was really challenging for him because he it's hard 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.120 and a lot of deaf people don't decide to learn 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.720 how to speak. And it was amazing watching it because 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.720 you know, when he's seventeen and goes off to college, 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:57.720 there's people who are way more deaf than he is, 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.479 but he's the tray later between them and a hearing 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.000 person in the pub, you know, and he's just done 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.880 amazingly well. He's a really, really beautiful person. He's a 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.560 very very lovely person. He missed out on a lot 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.560 of that pifful kind of bullshit judgmental stuff that you 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.240 learn as a kid. Like I had a conversation with 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.520 him as an adult, and he had no idea that 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.440 ginger people got discriminated against, then got shit from people. 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.000 He was just like, but why why not people with 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.400 brown hair? And I was like, I know, I can't, 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.000 I can't answer if it was just so beautiful, but 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.800 he just missed that and he didn't know that that 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:36.360 was a thing. 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.520 Okay, just a little bit deeper. Before the cochlear implant, 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:42.480 he couldn't. 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.880 Hear anything, so he had a hearing aid. He had 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.919 one of these, you know, phonic ears they were called. 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.640 And interestingly, actually my mom and dad, my dad was 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.039 a physicist. He got a sabbatical to UCLA when I 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.360 was four, and there was a really good deaf clinic 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.920 called John Tracy Clinic in La, so we he relocated 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:04.000 to LA when I was four, which I think is 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.479 why America and particularly the West Coast like imprinted on 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:11.200 me because it's my first memories. We're California, and my 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.240 mom was just going to the clinic and kind of 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.840 learning ways to deal with Dan and so he could 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:22.560 hear somewhat, you know, with his hearing aid. It was 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.800 funny because my mom had this remote like microphone that 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.640 would like tap straight into his ears. So if he 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:32.960 was on the street, like taking his bike too far. 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:37.680 She'd be like, Daniel stop, and he just like grew 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.280 up with the fucking voice of God in his ears. 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.480 It was really funny. And sometimes we'd like steal the 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.960 microphone and speak to him from other rooms and stuff. 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.160 And then he got his colt clear implant and they 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.680 have to like put a magna in your skull to 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:53.680 keep this thing on, and we would pretend that our 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.840 silverware was like sticking to his head. 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:02.000 And as this sister, how is it different now that 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.160 he has a cochlear implant? How well does he hear? 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.920 He hears a lot better. For sure, he can hear. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.000 He can tell the difference between male and female voices. 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.520 He can hear pitch. I remember before he got it, 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.080 I was trying to teach him how to sing song 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.200 too by Blur. We were in the car and it 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:22.280 was playing and I was like. 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.440 Dn did a Dan did a dead ada down a whoo, 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:32.360 and he went, d's just. 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:36.240 Like doll black pitch, And so he he definitely could 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.840 hear better. And there's this amazing moment after he'd had 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.160 his coclear implant and he'd been to a few gigs 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.640 of mine where I was now like playing through proper 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.320 big PA systems so he could hear better rather than 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.200 terrible pub pas full of people drinking and talking. And 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.600 we're in the supermarket and black Horse and the Cherry 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.080 Tree comes on the stereo and he looks at me 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.800 and he goes, is that you? And I like nearly 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:08.040 started crying. I was like, how do you know that? 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:14.640 That's me? And he just goes and I was like, 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:16.960 that's basically my career. 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.640 You were only four when your younger brother was born. 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.880 But did you notice since he had the disability that 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:27.040 he got more attention? 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:38.640 I in our family he did, but I certainly didn't 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.400 feel any resentment around that because you could tell that 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.240 his life was harder, and I think out in the 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:51.880 world he got less attention was he was quiet and 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.480 he would not you know, people sometimes didn't want to 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.240 deal with having to talk to death person. So I 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.200 think it was those It was both of those things. 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.880 So although it's not unheard of, it is not common 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:12.480 that a family has both adopted children and natural children. 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.239 Can you speak to that experience? 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:21.280 It's it's a ride, it's a wild ride. And my 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.320 parents were given the advice when they adopted me and 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:30.920 my brother to start telling us that we were adopted 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.520 before we would even understand. So basically it's like start 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.840 practicing and and and I think that was a really 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.160 great piece of advice. It's really hard. I think. I 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.200 think the perfect situation would be for for someone not 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.679 to even know until they were an adult and they 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:54.320 were completely formed, so that they could emotionally understand that 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.240 it was all in their best interests, you know. But 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.960 there's just no way of doing that. They're a kid 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.120 is going to find out, and that's just the most awful, 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:06.960 hurtful thing is to find out as a young person 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:11.520 that you've been lied to. But so I think this 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.520 is probably the best way of doing it, of me 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:19.080 never having a moment where I found out, you know, 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.679 I just always knew. I remember my dad when I 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:26.320 was about four, I was rebelling and I didn't even 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.160 mean it. I was just being naughty, and I say 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:30.880 to him, you can't tell me what to do. You're 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.000 not even my dad, you know, which is just must 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.800 have broken his heart. And my dad was not a 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.520 very emotional man and he so I remember him sitting 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.000 me on the bed and saying, I know we didn't 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.160 have you, but we are your mom and dad, so 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.360 you're not allowed to say that anymore. I was like, well, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.440 go and I didn't say anymore. And it actually it 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.880 didn't the whole, the whole adoption thing. I felt very 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.240 comfortable about it all through my youth, and then it 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.240 absolutely bit me on the eye when I was in 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:06.200 my early forties. I guess it was some sort of 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:11.240 midlife crisis, you know where, and especially being a musician, 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.440 where you're sort of you have this persona right that 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.880 you're sharing with the world, but it's not ever going 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.880 to be a complete picture of yourself. And I just 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:28.880 had a huge identity what would be the word implosion 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.520 and it was really around that and I'd never really 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.120 explored it, and so I did for a good few 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.480 years through therapy and through learning. 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.120 Can you tell me about the realization that that was 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.080 the issue and then how you explored it. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:54.320 Yeah, I, as you know, had that really successful record 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.800 in two thousand and four, twenty and five, twenty years ago, 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:07.319 and toured and then by it was probably around twoenty twelve, 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.120 I had, you know, a house in London, a house 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.760 in the country, an apartment in Edinburgh at one point, 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:20.760 an apartment in New York, a nice car, a husband 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.320 who was the drummer in the band, and I was 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.880 just fucking miserable. And I just felt like such a cliche. 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.600 You know, I've got I've realized this impossible dream, I've 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:40.320 got all the stuff, and I'm just not happy. And 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:45.079 then my dad died. He had Parkinson's, but he died 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.120 quite unexpectedly. My dad was just the most belligerent guy, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.640 and he just refused to stop cycling on his bike 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.040 and he ended up like falling down a massive pothole 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.160 in the road. It was so on brand for him, 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.200 and so he actually died sooner than he would have done. 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:03.559 But see, when he died seventy three, he was deteriorating. 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.200 So I mean, I think all of us felt that 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.680 there was somewhat of a blessing in him not having 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.760 to go through the later years of Parkinson's. And we 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.400 were very much at peace, my dad and I. We 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:18.280 had a really cool relationship, and so there wasn't kind 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.960 of massive grief. I was very sad about losing him, 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.560 but he'd had a great life and we we were 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.000 really good where we, you know, ended up at the 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:32.480 end of his life. But there was a huge gift. 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.120 I remember doing like CBS Morning Show or something. They 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.320 came to St. Andrew's and it was this really great 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:42.640 presenter and dad had passed and he said, your parents 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.560 give birth to you twice, once when you're born and 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:50.600 once when they die. And that was massively impactful for me, 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.800 and I really related to it because my dad's death 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.440 was this crazy gift where I realized of how much 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.840 I was really doing things with him in mind, you know, 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.360 and trying to trying to do the right thing all 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:10.160 the time. And then I realized that really that was 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.000 tied to adoption as well. Was this kind of people 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.320 pleaser in me which i'd also which had also really 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:21.920 really like come into my professional life as well, which 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.720 is not good for an artist. You know, you do 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:26.840 not want to be a people pleaser if you want 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:33.160 to make art. I mean, obviously aspect of that is great, 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.320 is helpful to put on a nice show for people 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.160 and all that, but when you're actually making the work. 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.120 And it kind of spiraled from there and I had 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.920 what I learned the Eastern expression of a moment of 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.760 SATURI of kind of instant awakening, and it was about 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.480 it was in the weeks after my dad had died, 0:15:54.760 --> 0:16:02.080 and this this incredible awakening of just going fuck, I'm 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:04.440 I just felt like I was living in the wrong life. 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.000 It was very matrix. I was like, oh my god, 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.520 I'm in the wrong reality. This is not the reality 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.640 I'm meant to be in. And one of the things 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:13.760 that always made me laugh and kind of made me 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.040 laugh at the time was like, my Wikipedia page is 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:21.280 so dull. It's just like girl from Scotland does well, 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:24.640 you know, and that's it. And I was like, no, 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.480 this doesn't feel right this and I'm and I'm and 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:29.960 I basically realized I was married to the wrong person 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:36.200 and I was not connected to source universe, god, whatever 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.240 you want to call it, in a way that I 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:44.840 had been when I was younger, and and I realized 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.480 that really part of it was a big part of 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:52.520 it was a self esteem issue. My self esteem sucked. 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.040 And there was a lot of bravado, you know, with 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.800 the being an artist and sort of I have a 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:02.640 song called hard Girls, which is kind of what this 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:07.240 is about. It's just like presenting yourself as this tough chick, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:12.240 you know, heart drinking, crazy rock chick. I'm just like, 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.199 sure I can put I can. I can be that, 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.359 and I enjoy being that when when, when the time 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.600 is right. But I'm also a girl with low self esteem, 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.359 and that was coming from I think that was coming 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.800 from a place of adoption. I think it's just part 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:31.760 of the course. You got a band. You're going to 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.080 have abandonment issues if you're an adopted person, and it's 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:44.919 how you handle those. But you're going to have them. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:49.720 Okay, so you had this moment as a tory, But 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.320 did you go to a therapist? How did you make 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:53.080 the transition? 0:17:54.200 --> 0:18:01.560 So I about three days. It was about seventy two 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:08.120 hours of like this happening, and it was so crazy. 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.919 Every single song I heard on the radio or in 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:17.320 a car was like a message. It was songs I 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:21.520 already knew, you know. I remember hearing Rescue Me and 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:26.920 just going, shit, this is this is it was. It 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:31.840 was overwhelming and it was somewhat kind of like, you know, 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.280 I felt like I was tripping almost. It was just 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:39.800 like the world was talking to me. And so I left. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.320 I just sat my ex down and just said I'm 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:46.800 not happy. This is not working, and he just packed 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.320 the bag and left the house. It was just it 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:55.080 was completely bizarre. And then and then I knew I 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.000 needed to go into therapy. So I sort of started 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.840 that journey and I did a lot of reading. I 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.200 did a lot of kind of you know, obviously it's 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:11.640 not just therapy these days, it's just such good resources 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:18.360 online for reading and watching things and kind of opening 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:24.720 my mind. And I think just part, I think a 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:29.359 lot of it too, was like taking accountability for making 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.120 bad choices. You know, not all this stuff was happening 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.159 to me. I think that was the thing that was 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.560 really tough, actually was I was in charge the whole time. 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.720 I was making all the decisions. The whole point of 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:44.720 wanting to be a musician was because I didn't want 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:47.679 to work for anybody, and I wanted to call the 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.560 shops and I wanted to write my own narrative, live 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:53.960 my own life without anybody telling me what to do. 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.440 And I fucked it so badly, I'd got it wrong, 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.919 and I think it was it. There was a feeling 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.840 where you can either do the British thing, the British 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.240 contractor thing, where you just constantly kind of like paper 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:11.200 over holes in the wall, no hotel, and there's layers 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:15.439 and layers of shit underneath this white wall, or you 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:20.720 just rip it up and you start again. And I 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:26.040 decided that that was definitely a much more exciting way 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.280 of living life, of really trying to just start again, 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.119 which is what my song Invisible Empire was about. I'll 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.560 always make a joke that sometimes you have to go 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:39.119 to home depot and just rent some heavy machinery and 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:44.720 level this fabricated city that you've built that's your reality, 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.400 and start again. And so I sold everything I owned 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:51.119 and I moved to America, which was one of the 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.359 best things I've ever done. 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:58.240 So you had all these houses, you sold them, You'd 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.920 had had an apartment in you Where did you move 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:01.840 to in America? 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:10.280 So I moved to La I'm trying to not say this, 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:11.920 but I want to say this. The part of why 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.359 I sold everything was because my ex ripped me off 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:20.480 so hard. But I had this love of the West 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.679 Coast because I'd been there as a kid, you know. 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:25.359 So my first memories were like swimming pools and orange 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:29.080 trees and great flavoring. And I loved America. I'd also 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:33.639 done my last year of high school in Connecticut at 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:38.040 Kent School. I got, like randomly got this scholarship to 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:43.159 the super expensive boarding school, which was awesome because I 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.439 went to my first shows. I'd never really been to 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.760 see live music. It was hard to go and see 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:51.600 live music where I lived because an hour and a 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.479 half away from any big city. So you know, I 0:21:55.520 --> 0:22:01.560 saw Fish and Van Morrison and The Grateful Dead and 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.199 it was it was amazing and I and it was 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:08.280 really the first time I got exposed to a lot 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:13.320 of new music. And I'd always gravitated towards America as 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:16.280 a British kid growing up. You know, I'm happy Days 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.960 is on from my you know, I'm watching that from 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:23.000 the age of ten or something. Then Friends comes out, 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.320 and you know, and all the movies, I mean, all 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.439 my favorite movies. Thank god I was an eighties kid 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.040 because it was just the best time. It was such 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:33.960 an amazing time to grow up. You know, we got 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.240 I went to See Back to the Future five times 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:41.960 in a row at at the movie theater. And you know, 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:43.760 my dad being physicist that you sort of got me 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:47.359 into science fiction as well when I was young. So 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:51.399 all the vernacular, all the imagery and all the music 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:56.199 I was just so drawn to in America. And I 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:58.720 think because of La it just felt familiar to me. 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:02.840 So I'm moved. I'd done some promo in Santa Monica 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:06.800 and I looked down the boulevard straight at the ocean 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.359 and a and a fucking dolphin like jumped out the 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:12.679 water and did and it was like it left a 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:17.560 rainbow trail. It's like, this is crazy. People live here, 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:22.000 like it's so nice and uh. And so I packed 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:25.000 my bags off and I moved to Venice Beach and 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:28.159 it was it was exactly what I needed. 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:31.960 Okay, all these years later, do you still live in 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:32.640 Venice Beach? 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:38.280 No, So it got too crazy for me, unsurprisingly, and 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:40.960 then I moved up to Tapanga Canyon for a while, 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.960 you know, hitting all the hitting, all the musician spots, 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:49.560 and it was beautiful up there. But I found that 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:52.520 I was hankering after nature and I loved being up 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:54.840 there and it was very beautiful. And there's like deer 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:57.520 off the balcony that I can throw carrots to. And 0:23:57.560 --> 0:23:59.520 I was like, but I'm still in a metropolis, and 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:02.400 I stay. And I'd met the love of my life 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:07.040 in a dog park in Serenia Park, in a Calabat 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:10.600 or a thousand Oaks. I think it is and he 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:15.119 was a jiu jitsu instructor for twenty years. I'd been 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.479 a musician for twenty years, and we were both just 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:20.280 like it was so cool. It was like a John 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:23.800 Hughes movie. Our dogs introduced us in a dog park 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:28.560 and I might write a musical about it because it's 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:33.480 just so funny. And we just decided it was time 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:36.760 to leave the city and go somewhere with some space 0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:42.880 and go somewhere that felt healthier. I guess I've never 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:47.320 loved cities ever. I never I never would have imagined 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:49.399 living in cities as long as I did, but it 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:52.960 was just useful, you know. But I found I wasn't 0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:59.359 using Los Angeles for it's you know, I guess, for 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:05.119 this city aspects of it. And so we went to 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:07.800 a friend's wedding in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and my 0:25:07.920 --> 0:25:10.280 other half Chris, just ten minutes in, was like we 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:13.600 should live here. I was like, I'm so down. So 0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:16.320 we just in four months we first sight we saw, 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:18.600 we were like, this is it, and we just we 0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:22.120 did it again, packed off and just left and love 0:25:22.160 --> 0:25:23.440 it there. It's really great. 0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:25.920 So how long have you been living in Santa Fe. 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:27.280 I've been there about four years. 0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:32.320 And how close to town. There's a downtown in Santa Fe. 0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:34.600 Yeah, there's the plaza. 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:37.359 Right, and it becomes pretty rural pretty fast. 0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:38.760 Oh for sure. 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:40.960 How far from downtown do you live? 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:44.560 So we're like ten minutes drive, but we're out in 0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:48.959 an arroio and it's it feels extremely rural where you 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:51.760 can't hear traffic where we are, and our neighbors are 0:25:51.760 --> 0:25:59.000 pretty far away, and it's it's definitely a secluded life. 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:06.639 It's an I love it. I'm very happy to be somewhere. Sorry, 0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:12.280 there's a child in the room next door. Very very 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:19.000 happy to be somewhere where I feel completely enveloped in 0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:22.880 nature and not urban madness. 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:29.280 Okay, But as an artist, there's an issue of inspiration. Now, 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:31.080 you could be sitting at home and reading a book 0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:33.359 or looking at the wall and getting inspiration, but certainly 0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:36.439 when you live in a city you're encountering more so 0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:39.679 do you find you have just as much inspiration the 0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:42.600 same kind or different inspiration living in New Mexico. 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:46.960 It's really funny because I thought that I worried about that, 0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:53.600 and you know, inspiration is for sure directly correlated with 0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:57.560 the input that you're giving yourself and you know your environment. 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:02.399 And I remember my good friend Tim Smith, who's an 0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:05.760 amazing dude. He built the Eden Project in the UK, 0:27:05.920 --> 0:27:09.800 which is a music venue but also this incredible environmental center. 0:27:09.880 --> 0:27:14.359 But he was in the music business in his early life. 0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:17.160 But he said that when I moved to Venice Beach, 0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:19.520 he was going to buy me a roller blind of Hackney. 0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:23.440 He said, when I'm in my studio, I've got pulled 0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:27.719 down the roller blind and just see something horrible. Not 0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:33.040 that Hackney's horrible, Hackney's very nice then, but something gritty, 0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:37.200 you know. And actually Venice Beach was gritty, certainly gritty 0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:41.840 enough as it turned out. And I think what I've 0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:45.800 gravitated to, certainly as I've got older, and I'm sure 0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:49.640 this is not unusual, is you know, one of the 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:54.280 very deeply inspirational figures of New Mexico and Santa Fe 0:27:54.440 --> 0:28:00.480 is Georgia O'Keeffe. And I've been very very inspired by 0:28:00.920 --> 0:28:06.160 her legacy. And the museum in town is fantastic. It's 0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:12.040 a it's such a fantastic owed to her, and it's 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:14.679 very alive. It feels very very much kind of like 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:19.280 a living museum. And what I love about it is 0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:22.760 just the rebellion in her art, the rebellion in the 0:28:22.760 --> 0:28:25.680 way that she lived her life. You know, her partner 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:29.640 Alfred is it Stiglitz? Is that that right? I can't 0:28:29.640 --> 0:28:33.600 remember his last name, the gallerist anyway, who was her partner. 0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:38.400 There's this beautiful letter in the Georgia O'Keefe Museum and 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:41.360 it says, Georgia, you finally have what you always wanted, 0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:45.760 a ranch of your own. And it's ghost ranch where 0:28:45.760 --> 0:28:49.040 they actually do music as well. They have gigs up there. 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:52.480 And I just love the fact that this guy understood 0:28:52.520 --> 0:28:56.760 that what she really wanted was solitude. And the two 0:28:56.840 --> 0:29:00.560 things that I've always needed to write songs is solitude 0:29:00.600 --> 0:29:03.040 and a view. And I think it doesn't really matter 0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:09.920 where that is. But having said that, my songwriting is rarer. 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:15.720 It's not as prolific as it was. And I'm looking at, 0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:19.360 you know, writing a new album after this twenty twenty 0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:25.760 aniversary re release, and it is somewhat it's somewhat unsettling, 0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:30.560 you know, not writing all the time, and there's there's 0:29:30.640 --> 0:29:33.239 the constant sort of conflict if am I too am 0:29:33.280 --> 0:29:38.000 I just too happy? Am I too? At peace? Does? 0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:42.120 Does music, and music has always come through a therapeutic 0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:48.560 purging of difficulty, and it's always been personal for me. 0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:52.480 It's never been kind of big statements about the world. 0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:56.480 So it's an interesting point in my life where I 0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:02.120 have to I have to, really I'm a big believer 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:04.880 that there's you when you make a record. It's got 0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:08.080 because you have to make a record. You have to 0:30:08.160 --> 0:30:13.239 have something to say when you make a record, and 0:30:13.280 --> 0:30:14.720 so I really have to work out what I want 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:17.400 to say now because I'm not it's not obvious. 0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:23.120 So what have you learned about love? Marrying the band member, 0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:25.760 having a realization he was the wrong one, finding the 0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:28.880 guy in the dog park? What are the insights here? 0:30:29.160 --> 0:30:35.080 Oh, myriads of myriads. I think one of the things 0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:38.840 I've learned I learn a lot from Chris all the time, 0:30:38.840 --> 0:30:42.200 which is why I love being best friends with him 0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:48.800 and being with him. He's he has no problem challenging ideas, 0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:55.160 challenging behavior, which is great for me because I can 0:30:55.200 --> 0:30:57.360 be I can be a petulant little shit if I 0:30:57.400 --> 0:31:00.360 want to be, and it's great having a partner doesn't 0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:04.640 put up with that. I think the thing that I've 0:31:04.720 --> 0:31:08.080 learned most with him or certainly one of the things 0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:13.760 that is most profound was this idea that you will 0:31:13.800 --> 0:31:17.320 always have your own house, and that person spiritually and 0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:20.240 that person and emotionally, that person will always have their house, 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:23.760 and then you will have a shared house. But I 0:31:23.800 --> 0:31:27.200 think it's always good to keep your shed, to keep 0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:30.760 your personal shed. And I think what I learned with Chris, 0:31:31.040 --> 0:31:33.360 both of us had gone through a lot of personal 0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:36.080 work by the time we met each other, which was awesome. 0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:41.160 So we didn't need each other in that way, and 0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:45.480 we weren't looking for a relationship to fill an empty 0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:48.800 corner of our shed. We were meeting each other to 0:31:48.920 --> 0:31:53.200 make a new house. And what I really learned was 0:31:53.320 --> 0:31:55.800 i'd sort of been fed, I guess, just you know, 0:31:56.000 --> 0:31:59.000 from the ether, fed this idea that you should share 0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:03.040 everything with your partner, you know, And I just think 0:32:03.080 --> 0:32:06.240 that's not true at all. I think that there's there's 0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:13.160 there's a lot of behavior, there's a lot of kind 0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:18.920 of reactionary behavior that comes out that has nothing to 0:32:18.960 --> 0:32:22.480 do with that other person but can but can have 0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:27.120 a negative effect on them. And so I think that 0:32:27.360 --> 0:32:30.000 was something that was really interesting for me. Just go, oh, 0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:34.160 that's my ship. I need to sort that out. It's 0:32:34.320 --> 0:32:39.440 really I need to. It's basically the metaphor I like is, 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:42.600 do not get dog shit on your shoe and walk 0:32:42.760 --> 0:32:46.040 into your house. Clean your shoes before you go in. 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:51.400 So he's living in New Mexico. What does his life 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:51.840 look like? 0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:55.800 His life looks very different than it was. So he 0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:59.440 was he was an art major. He was he was 0:33:00.400 --> 0:33:02.600 possibly going to be a you know, he could have 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:07.680 been a pro baseball player. He loved baseball. And it's 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:10.040 amazing that I've done the music for Clueless, the musical 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:15.040 in London, and his life was clueless. So he grew 0:33:15.160 --> 0:33:20.160 up in the valley grievously Bush had the house party 0:33:20.160 --> 0:33:23.720 where like the cops and the helicopters turned up. But 0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:28.240 he grew up playing baseball and unbelievably, one of his 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:31.680 childhood best friends was t J. Jackson. So Tito Jackson 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:34.120 was his baseball coach. When he wasn't on tour, he'd 0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:36.880 like gone back and teased the baseball. In the end, 0:33:36.960 --> 0:33:42.120 he decided it wasn't it wasn't something that he could. 0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:44.640 He wanted to just dedicate his life to which was 0:33:44.680 --> 0:33:46.479 what was going to be. So he ended up an 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:51.959 art major. Up in San Luis, ABIs Bowl and then 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:54.360 Long Beach. I think he was art college and he 0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:57.400 walked past the martial arts gym and saw people doing 0:33:57.440 --> 0:33:59.400 jiu jitsu and he walked in and that was that. 0:33:59.480 --> 0:34:02.000 He was just completely addicted. And so he was the 0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:05.400 head coach at the Gracie Academy in Beverly Hills for 0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.200 about fifteen years and then kind of peeled off to 0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:10.440 do his own thing. And then of course COVID happened, 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:17.520 which was not good for martial arts and music where 0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:20.120 everybody is in close contact and in the room together. 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:27.240 And so he's working on a new more art arts 0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:30.680 based martial arts project at the moment, which is really exciting. 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:36.279 But he's yeah, big pivot whilst also holding down the 0:34:36.280 --> 0:34:40.960 fort in the beautiful high desert with four dogs. 0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:47.680 And Hapapi economics, you know where seems like you're making 0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:48.800 more bread than he is. 0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:49.480 Yeah. 0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:51.879 Attention to the relationship, it. 0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:57.319 Really doesn't, It really doesn't. It's I find I think 0:34:57.360 --> 0:35:01.840 it would with certain couples, you know. And I find 0:35:02.760 --> 0:35:06.600 it's much more exciting for me to do what I 0:35:06.640 --> 0:35:09.440 love doing. Go out. I've got a great job, I 0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:14.720 make a great living. And then afford him the space 0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:19.440 to really follow something he's passionate about. And what he 0:35:19.480 --> 0:35:22.200 wants to do is going to be a real community 0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:25.239 give back project, and so I don't want to share. 0:35:25.320 --> 0:35:29.880 It's his place to talk about it. But it's exciting 0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:32.000 to sort of feel like a team in that way 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:34.960 that I'm going out and doing the music, doing the gigs, 0:35:35.000 --> 0:35:38.160 make the money, and then I love what he's planning, 0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:44.160 and it's it feels like putting our team energy into 0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:47.959 something that can that has the potential to be really 0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:48.960 great for other people. 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:55.080 Now you're not married to him, correct, Now, what's the 0:35:55.160 --> 0:35:55.839 thinking there? 0:35:56.120 --> 0:35:59.080 I don't know. I mean, the thing is that we 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.919 call each other and wife because I'm just I'm too 0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:04.479 old to have a boyfriend. But it's just I'm too old. 0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:11.279 It feels too weird to say my boyfriend. So I 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:17.560 don't think either of us feel at all strongly about 0:36:17.920 --> 0:36:19.440 you know, it would just it would just be for 0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:23.640 practical legal stuff that makes life a bit easier when 0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:25.360 you're married. But we're not in any hurry to do that. 0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:26.080 We're very happy. 0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:29.879 Well, I've been with my girlfriend for twenty years and 0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:34.000 we're not married. She's been married twice. I've been married once, 0:36:34.400 --> 0:36:37.520 and after being divorced once, I certainly don't want to 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:38.440 go through that again. 0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:39.960 Yeah. I feel that way too. 0:36:39.880 --> 0:36:41.919 Even though divorced. Yeah. 0:36:42.800 --> 0:36:45.840 Yeah, it will fucking put you off, that's for sure. 0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:51.960 It's a it's a horrible it's a horrible process to 0:36:51.960 --> 0:36:54.719 go through. You it's so unpleasant. So yes, I think 0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:59.359 avoiding that is a very good pro of not doing 0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:03.280 it again. But yeah, it's I don't think it's massively 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:04.040 important to either. 0:37:12.360 --> 0:37:16.920 So you're rex he moves out other than lawyers, do 0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:18.279 you have any more contact? 0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:21.040 Oh, it's just grim. Like we had to do mediation 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:24.760 and like get in a room and oh it was gross. 0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:27.919 It was terrible, And that the terrible part of it 0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:31.560 was that I was faced with, like how bad the 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:35.520 decision had been to marry that guy. I had to like, 0:37:35.719 --> 0:37:39.000 you know, seeing the worst side of it because he's 0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:45.759 extremely hurt that I've left. And then you see a 0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.080 very different side of somebody, especially when they're trying to 0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:51.319 get half your money. You know, that's just a it's 0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:55.480 a horrible it's a horrible thing to witness in someone 0:37:55.520 --> 0:37:57.640 that you spent ten years with. 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:02.000 You say, he ripped you off, in that. 0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:05.080 In my opinion, I'm sure he would he wouldn't use 0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:08.080 those words. He in his words, he wanted what he 0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:12.600 was entitled to, and it was it was very painful 0:38:12.600 --> 0:38:14.719 for me that side of it, just feeling like it 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:16.160 was just grossly unfair. 0:38:17.400 --> 0:38:21.080 So looking back, when you made the decision to marry him, 0:38:21.120 --> 0:38:23.480 you go on at this point that you had made 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:26.399 prior to this lightning bulb coming down. You made all 0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:29.760 these bad decisions. So what was the decision to marry 0:38:29.880 --> 0:38:33.600 him in retrospect, what was going through your brain? And 0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:34.560 why was that bad? 0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:38.640 I think I don't blame myself for it, and I 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:43.440 don't I really understand what I was needing, And what 0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:48.799 I was needing was something grounded and something reliable and 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:52.959 something that felt safe, which ironically ended up not being 0:38:52.960 --> 0:38:58.279 that at all. But at that time in my life, 0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:01.200 i'd moved down to London, so we met before my 0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:08.080 record came out, and I'd moved down to London, and 0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:12.839 I just needed something to hold on to while this 0:39:13.400 --> 0:39:18.680 life was this hurricane was going on, where I was 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:21.840 becoming well known, I was having a multi platinum record, 0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:24.759 I was touring the world. One of the things, one 0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:28.680 of the really discombobulating things about being successful was that 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.439 I just hadn't even occurred to me that I would 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:35.040 be a boss. You know, I just wanted to. I 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:37.480 really wanted to be one of the guys in the band, 0:39:38.400 --> 0:39:42.680 and I wasn't and I couldn't be that, and so 0:39:42.840 --> 0:39:46.879 I was a bit allergic to taking responsibility of being 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:52.680 the boss of a business. And it felt very lonely 0:39:53.280 --> 0:39:57.840 being the turn, you know, being being the queen bee, 0:39:58.080 --> 0:40:01.520 I was different from everybody else. People you know, had 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:03.680 to kind of behave when they spoke to me, and 0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:08.040 I had to be like literally chaperoned everywhere, like a 0:40:08.080 --> 0:40:10.799 little fucking golden eggs. So nothing happened to me. But 0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:13.200 I just sometimes I would just like sneak off at 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:15.640 the hotel just to have a walk, so there wasn't 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:18.520 anyone with me. I mean, it was so suffocating sometimes, 0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:21.960 but you understand, it's just like nothing, you can't let 0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:26.200 anything happen to me, because you know, I'm the egg 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:32.719 and so I needed to know. And he was a 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:36.560 very straight laced dude, so I just knew that it 0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:40.200 was I think it felt like it was holding onto 0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:43.840 something that would stop me just completely going off the rails, 0:40:44.520 --> 0:40:47.680 which now I look back and I think I should 0:40:47.680 --> 0:40:49.799 have just let myself do that. That was, you know, 0:40:49.840 --> 0:40:51.320 it would have been a lot easier and cheaper. 0:40:53.480 --> 0:41:02.040 What other bad decisions did you realize you made. 0:41:02.360 --> 0:41:06.560 That's a good question when I actually have to list them. 0:41:11.200 --> 0:41:16.880 I feel like it was a perhaps a kind of 0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:22.720 attitude to way of life where I think I had 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:29.920 fallen into this weird trap of convention, where I built 0:41:29.960 --> 0:41:32.520 this life that was allowing me to live an artistic 0:41:32.560 --> 0:41:35.040 life and live a free life, and I just sort 0:41:35.040 --> 0:41:39.160 of all these small choices had made it feel extremely conventional, 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:44.600 and really underneath it, I'm not a very conventional person, 0:41:46.880 --> 0:41:54.640 and I don't and I find that convention oppressive. And 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:58.960 I think my nurture and going back to, you know, 0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:01.960 growing up as an adult kid, I think my parents 0:42:01.960 --> 0:42:04.000 were very straight laced, and you know, my dad was 0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:09.239 a physicist, my mom was a teacher. They didn't kind 0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:12.000 of go to bars or it was all dinner parties 0:42:12.040 --> 0:42:14.720 with other scientists coming to the high Sea. It's basically 0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:21.680 kind of square, you know, academic, and I think that 0:42:21.680 --> 0:42:30.160 that was overriding my my wildness, and so I just 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:32.680 ended up feeling like someone had clipped my wings when 0:42:32.680 --> 0:42:34.239 I was in a cage. 0:42:34.560 --> 0:42:39.320 Okay, so you're talking like your roots are being responsible, 0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:42.759 and most artists, not all of them, but a lot 0:42:42.800 --> 0:42:46.319 of them are irresponsible. So now that you're conscious and 0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:49.800 you're in charge, how do you deal with that balance? 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:52.640 You know, I would say there many artists have to 0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:54.919 be an artist because they could work at the seven 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:56.759 eleven because they couldn't show up on time. 0:42:56.960 --> 0:42:58.520 That's might be able to do the work. 0:42:58.840 --> 0:43:02.200 Yeah, so how do you make sure you don't clip 0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:03.520 your wings going forward? 0:43:04.040 --> 0:43:10.200 It's a great question, I think. You know, during that 0:43:10.239 --> 0:43:15.399 time in twenty twelve when I moved to America, I 0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:16.960 thought I was going to give up. I thought I 0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:20.560 was going to give up music, not music completely, I 0:43:20.560 --> 0:43:22.320 thought I was going to give up being an artist. 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:25.480 I felt like I'm done. I don't want to be 0:43:26.840 --> 0:43:28.960 front facing, I don't want to be in the public 0:43:29.000 --> 0:43:35.480 realm anymore. I'm so bored of this, like hamster wheel, 0:43:35.840 --> 0:43:41.120 of making a record, working with whoever the big producer is, 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:46.719 trying to compete on radio, doing your promo, doing your tour. 0:43:47.080 --> 0:43:49.080 And you know, the whole reason I wanted to be 0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:53.160 a musician was I hate repetition, and there I was 0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:59.479 in absolute feeling of repetition. And then what I realized was, yes, 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:01.960 you can alway, you can find reputation in anything that 0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:04.799 you're doing. You know it's on you, but it's on you. 0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:08.880 It's on you to not make what you're doing repetitive 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:12.640 because you're in charge. You're making the decisions about what 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:14.480 you're doing and how you're doing it. And I was 0:44:14.520 --> 0:44:22.480 allowing myself to be made part of some machinery that 0:44:22.600 --> 0:44:25.719 I never intended to be part of. I don't want 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:28.520 to be part of. But it was like, how else 0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:30.800 do you do this? How else do you release records 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:34.200 and have a tour if you're not part of this machinery? Right? 0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:38.680 And so I thought I was going to completely walk 0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:43.000 away from it, and I got accepted onto the Sundance 0:44:43.040 --> 0:44:48.120 Film Institute's Film Composer's Lab, right be the great Robert Redford. 0:44:49.120 --> 0:44:54.600 And I don't think I wasn't very good at doing 0:44:54.600 --> 0:44:58.440 film music because I'm too much into melody and it's 0:44:58.600 --> 0:45:04.719 too doesn't fit my writing perfectly, but it was it 0:45:04.760 --> 0:45:10.520 was extremely freeing to go and learn something else. And 0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:15.040 one of my tutors actually was Alan Silvestri the did 0:45:15.040 --> 0:45:17.280 the music for Back to the Futures. That was extremely 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:22.439 exciting for me. It was what was really important about 0:45:22.480 --> 0:45:25.880 that time was that I got the hooks out and 0:45:25.960 --> 0:45:28.439 I knew I didn't have to do it, and that 0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:34.799 was that was the really important level up was under 0:45:35.080 --> 0:45:38.319 was really really understanding that I didn't have to do 0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:40.520 it and I could walk away and I could just 0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:43.480 have a different life. And I still always just have 0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:46.560 these fantasies of just disappearing. I'm sure lots of musicians 0:45:46.640 --> 0:45:49.560 have this, where you just it would be so great 0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:54.680 to just walk away and not be seen again. I 0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:57.760 remember reading this story about Madeline Peru. Are you familiar 0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:01.399 with Madelin Prairiue. She's a she's a she's a really 0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:06.440 interesting French kind of pop classical artist. But she's quite 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:08.080 a wild child, I think, and she just and I 0:46:08.280 --> 0:46:11.960 just remember reading this story that she just disappeared and 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:13.640 no one knew where she was, and I just thought, 0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:17.040 oh my god, that's so cool, it's so great. 0:46:17.960 --> 0:46:21.040 Way, let's slow it down a little bit. What is 0:46:21.080 --> 0:46:22.680 the appeal of disappearing. 0:46:25.360 --> 0:46:32.680 I suppose the that the freedom, it's the wildness, it's 0:46:32.719 --> 0:46:36.560 the freedom that you're not dictated to. No one's telling 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:40.840 you you've got to go to work, no one's, no one's, 0:46:43.600 --> 0:46:47.120 no one has ownership of your movements and of your decisions. 0:46:47.640 --> 0:46:55.840 And I think being an artist, I mean a musician, Uh, 0:46:56.239 --> 0:47:01.560 it's it's it's it's very extreme, you know, being a 0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:05.799 touring musician, it's all encompassing. You go on tour, it's 0:47:05.840 --> 0:47:08.520 twenty four to seven, You're living in a little sardine 0:47:08.600 --> 0:47:13.200 can with six blokes that you end up spending more 0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:16.000 time with them than they do with their wives, you know. 0:47:19.080 --> 0:47:26.120 So I've chosen vocation that really is so often it's 0:47:26.160 --> 0:47:29.000 just all or nothing. There's not really a balance to 0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:32.520 be had. It doesn't exist a lot of the time. 0:47:33.640 --> 0:47:35.600 And so I think it's that, I think it's just 0:47:35.920 --> 0:47:41.799 a kind of a fantasy of just I'm just gonna leave. 0:47:42.239 --> 0:47:43.600 I'm just not gonna do it. 0:47:44.560 --> 0:47:47.680 Okay, obviously, if you were to do that, whether you 0:47:47.719 --> 0:47:51.320 did it or not, they're economic issues involved. The artists 0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:54.239 has done much better, the business is much more sophisticated 0:47:54.280 --> 0:47:57.480 than it was fifty years ago. But you obviously had 0:47:57.480 --> 0:47:59.960 to pay your rex a certain amount. You've had us 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:04.200 certain level of success. How are you doing financially doing good. 0:48:05.080 --> 0:48:09.359 I feel very lucky in this I feel, I have 0:48:09.400 --> 0:48:11.759 to say, I feel like on many levels and all 0:48:11.760 --> 0:48:14.120 the way through my career I felt like an anomaly 0:48:15.160 --> 0:48:19.319 in a very which I'm very grateful for. You know, 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:22.760 even that first breakthrough, I was just like a busker 0:48:23.280 --> 0:48:29.520 from Scotland and the album was like super stripped back 0:48:30.440 --> 0:48:36.440 with no bells and whistles. I really didn't have a 0:48:36.640 --> 0:48:39.480 record company breathing down my neck telling me to take 0:48:39.480 --> 0:48:42.120 my clothes off or dress this way or look for 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:44.440 this way. They weren't telling me to do that. They 0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:49.000 were really just if anything. The second record was difficult 0:48:49.040 --> 0:48:51.360 because I wanted to lean into the rock star stuff 0:48:51.520 --> 0:48:53.000 and they were like, we want to keep you the 0:48:53.040 --> 0:48:55.319 girl next door, just keep wearing your jeans, and I 0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:58.680 was like, no, I want to try on some sparkly shit. 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:04.080 And it's all felt very you. It's all felt really unique, 0:49:04.320 --> 0:49:06.680 which has been which I'm really grateful for. And I 0:49:06.719 --> 0:49:12.879 think where I'm at twenty years later is I'm very 0:49:13.280 --> 0:49:15.520 I'm proud that I can look back at every record 0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:17.960 and I didn't do what was expected and I changed 0:49:18.080 --> 0:49:23.440 up my really like seriously changed up how each record sounds. 0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:26.759 It's that I've never repeated myself. I don't think at 0:49:26.760 --> 0:49:33.920 all with what I've produced, and I think that now 0:49:34.520 --> 0:49:38.920 is feels like my purpose is just to keep Beck 0:49:39.080 --> 0:49:41.120 was a big inspiration to me when I was young 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:43.839 when I saw Loser on MTV. You know, I'd grown 0:49:43.920 --> 0:49:47.719 up watching Top of the Pops and I saw you know, 0:49:47.800 --> 0:49:49.880 Kim Wilde. I thought was great. I loved her, but 0:49:50.239 --> 0:49:52.480 in general all the pop stuff, I loved the songs, 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:54.280 but it never made me want to be a musician. 0:49:55.960 --> 0:49:58.000 And it was when I saw Loser on MTV and 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:00.279 I was just like, holy shit, that sound it is 0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:04.359 amazing and looks amazing, and he's weird and he looks 0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:07.480 like a boss, he looks homeless. It's like, how is 0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:11.279 this working? And that was sort of my journey into 0:50:12.920 --> 0:50:16.400 wanting to be a musician. That like kind of fifteen sixteen. 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:20.520 So if you decided to go to a desert island today, 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:23.640 do you have enough money and enough royalties or are 0:50:23.719 --> 0:50:24.880 you working for a living? 0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:29.239 I'm still working for a living, but because I've it's 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:31.880 because of the lifestyle I've chosen. I have a beautiful 0:50:31.920 --> 0:50:36.239 house in Santa Fe and I have a very comfortable 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:41.520 lifestyle and that I'm working to keep that. But if 0:50:41.560 --> 0:50:43.560 I had to move to a desert island, I would 0:50:43.600 --> 0:50:46.520 be I would be fine because I would not have 0:50:46.600 --> 0:50:47.959 to pay for pro paine. 0:50:49.760 --> 0:50:54.640 Okay, so you know you're a woman in the music 0:50:54.800 --> 0:51:01.759 business and you're not a pop act. That's a category 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:06.319 into itself. On the rock side, more art to side, 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:09.360 we certainly had the me Too movement starting like seven 0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:14.560 years ago, but whatever the amplification, those issues always existed. 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:16.800 So what it's been like for you being a woman 0:51:16.840 --> 0:51:17.680 in the music. 0:51:17.400 --> 0:51:25.799 Business again apparently an anomaly. I really feel like I 0:51:25.880 --> 0:51:31.200 have come up against very very little sexism in my career. 0:51:33.520 --> 0:51:36.279 The sexism I have come up against has certainly been 0:51:36.320 --> 0:51:39.560 on the business side rather than the touring side. On 0:51:39.600 --> 0:51:43.680 the touring side, I've had a great time, and I 0:51:43.800 --> 0:51:48.840 feel like the men I've worked with, if anything, have 0:51:49.000 --> 0:51:53.680 been polit and better behaved because they're working with a woman. 0:51:55.360 --> 0:52:00.719 And I've also always I've always conducted myself as a 0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:05.200 musician first. I don't feel like I sort of trade 0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:08.279 on the on the fact that I'm female. I'm very 0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:12.080 much in Chrissy Hines camp here where it's like you're 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:21.600 a musician, you happen to be female and business side, 0:52:21.840 --> 0:52:26.080 I think the thing that's been most frustrating is there's 0:52:26.120 --> 0:52:30.960 a lack of confidence in female artists compared to male artists, 0:52:31.000 --> 0:52:35.560 certainly in my maybe not in kind of the super 0:52:35.640 --> 0:52:39.239 pop realm or the hip hop an urban R and 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:43.000 B realm that's I think it's very different kind of 0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:50.960 culture culturally, but certainly in indie rock folk music, I 0:52:51.040 --> 0:52:55.440 will be playing a venue that someone who's really on 0:52:55.560 --> 0:52:59.799 par with me in terms of style and success is 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:03.520 getting offered a bigger guarantee than I am, or I'm 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:07.800 not being given a very high building on a festival lineup, 0:53:08.000 --> 0:53:11.840 which when really the data does not suggest that I 0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:15.720 should be here, I should be there, and that feels 0:53:15.760 --> 0:53:17.880 like it's due to being a female artist. 0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:29.160 Let's just go back to your time of epiphany and 0:53:29.360 --> 0:53:31.960 just go back to the adoption for a minute. So 0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:35.399 what point did you search for your roots in your 0:53:35.520 --> 0:53:37.200 birth parents? 0:53:37.280 --> 0:53:39.520 So I was twenty three, So I didn't get my 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:42.399 record deal till I was twenty nine. I was twenty three, 0:53:42.560 --> 0:53:46.880 I'm unemployed, want to be a musician living in Edinburgh, 0:53:47.000 --> 0:53:50.040 or actually I was still living in Saint Andrews hanging 0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:54.200 out with a bunch of very cool in the kind 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:57.920 of punk folk musicians called the Fence Collective. In Saint Andrews, 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:04.120 the head head folk punk was a guy called King 0:54:04.200 --> 0:54:08.400 Creoso Kenny Anderson, who kind of started that he was 0:54:08.440 --> 0:54:12.920 the Goudy of our little town, just making really strange, 0:54:13.520 --> 0:54:24.280 great outsider music. And I watched a brilliant movie called 0:54:24.320 --> 0:54:30.600 Secrets and Lies by Mike Lee, and it's so batshit crazy. 0:54:31.040 --> 0:54:35.200 It's this black adopted woman who tries to find her 0:54:35.239 --> 0:54:37.960 mom and she it's Brenda Blefflin, who's an amazing actress. 0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:40.840 And she goes to the doorstep of this woman's house 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:44.040 and she says, I think you're my mom, and she 0:54:44.120 --> 0:54:46.319 looks at her and she goes, Darling, I don't think 0:54:46.320 --> 0:54:50.480 that's possible, you know, And then she suddenly remembers and 0:54:50.520 --> 0:54:54.520 she goes, oh my god, oh my god, I do remember, 0:54:54.800 --> 0:54:58.360 you know. It's just and it's so crazy. What happens 0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:03.160 in that movie is so funny and dark and awful. 0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:06.000 And I was like, I could handle that. I really 0:55:06.000 --> 0:55:09.480 think I could handle that, And so I started looking. 0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:13.960 I sent My parents had always been very gracious and 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:17.600 very very supportive, so we'll always we'll always stand by 0:55:17.640 --> 0:55:23.600 if you want to find out. And I I remember calling, 0:55:24.160 --> 0:55:26.080 I had a number, I had more information than I 0:55:26.120 --> 0:55:29.279 should have had. Actually, they got given like some a 0:55:29.280 --> 0:55:32.360 lot of information about who they were. And I couldn't 0:55:32.480 --> 0:55:36.879 find my birth mother, my biological mother, so I sent 0:55:37.480 --> 0:55:39.360 I found out that her brother was in the army. 0:55:39.400 --> 0:55:41.719 So I sent a letter to the kind of army 0:55:41.719 --> 0:55:44.080 headquarters in Scotland, and then forgot about it and didn't 0:55:44.360 --> 0:55:46.920 hear anything back. And then there was a number for 0:55:47.080 --> 0:55:50.400 my biological father in Ireland, and I called the number 0:55:50.400 --> 0:55:53.439 and this older woman answered, and I was like, holy shit, 0:55:53.560 --> 0:55:58.719 this is my grandmother. And I I didn't know if 0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:01.080 he told her. I didn't know if they knew, you know. 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:03.040 So I just had to say, this is a friend 0:56:03.040 --> 0:56:07.400 of John's from the seventies. And she was obviously like 0:56:07.440 --> 0:56:10.239 totally suspicions that we don't hear from him very much. 0:56:10.600 --> 0:56:13.360 And that was that. And then six months later I 0:56:13.360 --> 0:56:17.280 got I was in my little house on the Experts 0:56:17.320 --> 0:56:18.919 with Saint Andrew's the phone it was what a WAE 0:56:19.000 --> 0:56:22.440 line phone, and the phone went and funnily enough, the 0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:25.680 guy said, is that Kate I said, yes, he goes, 0:56:25.719 --> 0:56:29.840 it's your uncle Bob, and I said, I don't have 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:35.880 an uncle Bob. He goes, well you do now, And 0:56:37.120 --> 0:56:38.880 then I was able to meet with her and she 0:56:39.320 --> 0:56:44.080 lived in Edinburgh, very very nearby, and it was what 0:56:44.480 --> 0:56:48.799 it was a really wild experience. And she's tiny, she's 0:56:48.880 --> 0:56:56.520 half Chinese, half Scottish. We kind of look alike. But 0:56:56.600 --> 0:56:59.840 what I found out in later years, we're not that 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:03.880 long ago twenty nineteen, when Long Lost Family, which is 0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:06.439 a TV show in the UK, I could never find 0:57:06.480 --> 0:57:08.960 my biological dad and they said, you want us to 0:57:09.000 --> 0:57:11.000 find him and be part of the program, and I 0:57:11.080 --> 0:57:13.200 was like, oh my god, do I really want to 0:57:13.239 --> 0:57:16.880 do this on camera? But then they said, look, we've 0:57:16.920 --> 0:57:25.640 got access that general public don't have. You also get 0:57:25.960 --> 0:57:30.400 a social worker that basically a therapist that anybody involved 0:57:30.400 --> 0:57:32.000 with the show can call for the rest of their 0:57:32.040 --> 0:57:35.840 life if it's to do with the program. And I 0:57:35.880 --> 0:57:38.400 was like, man, I wish I had this support when 0:57:38.440 --> 0:57:40.080 I did it the first time round, and I thought, 0:57:40.160 --> 0:57:42.240 it's probably the last chance I'm going to get to 0:57:42.720 --> 0:57:45.520 find out who he is, and so I said yes, 0:57:45.880 --> 0:57:48.960 And then it turns out I look really like my 0:57:49.080 --> 0:57:53.520 biological dad, and he was an irishman with a great voice, 0:57:53.560 --> 0:58:00.280 and sadly he passed by the time I did that program. 0:58:00.400 --> 0:58:03.120 But they said, they said, off camera, you know he's past, 0:58:03.160 --> 0:58:05.120 really sorry, but we'd like to wrap things up, you know, 0:58:05.200 --> 0:58:07.840 on camera. So we did this like shoot and the 0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:10.880 guy presenting Mickey Campbell, he's quite a well known presenter. 0:58:10.880 --> 0:58:13.280 He's also adopted in the UK. He just goes, there 0:58:13.360 --> 0:58:15.960 is something we didn't tell you. And I was like, 0:58:16.040 --> 0:58:18.240 oh my god, what And he goes, You've got two 0:58:18.280 --> 0:58:22.040 sisters and they're within two and three years of you 0:58:22.160 --> 0:58:25.120 in age, and they's been living fifteen miles away from 0:58:25.200 --> 0:58:28.840 you when you were growing up, and so he'd had 0:58:28.920 --> 0:58:32.560 kids with someone else very soon after. And we are 0:58:32.720 --> 0:58:35.960 so alike, and they're so great, and we've got a 0:58:36.000 --> 0:58:38.840 fan we've got a fantastic relationship, which is just and 0:58:38.880 --> 0:58:42.280 I had no sisters growing up, so it's that was 0:58:42.400 --> 0:58:45.360 a wild ride. But it was so crazy because of 0:58:45.400 --> 0:58:49.360 course I knew I might have siblings, you know, they 0:58:49.440 --> 0:58:54.560 had no idea, no idea. Turns out he like had 0:58:54.680 --> 0:58:56.720 kept a baby picture of me and his wallet, and 0:58:56.920 --> 0:58:59.400 you know, he was he was he had wanted to 0:58:59.760 --> 0:59:01.680 keep I think, and it was my mom just wasn't 0:59:01.680 --> 0:59:04.000 able to My biological mother just wasn't able to do it. 0:59:04.720 --> 0:59:08.920 But the program called them and they just have to 0:59:08.960 --> 0:59:12.480 sort of give them the information slowly to let them keep, 0:59:12.520 --> 0:59:15.760 you know, emotionally, keep up. They said, we think we 0:59:15.800 --> 0:59:17.880 have reason to believe you might have a sister that 0:59:17.920 --> 0:59:21.880 you don't know you have. And she's Scottish and she's 0:59:21.920 --> 0:59:24.760 a musician. And they put the phone down and Chaven 0:59:24.760 --> 0:59:27.080 and my older sister said to let all my younger sister. 0:59:27.600 --> 0:59:31.200 So I'm the oldest. She's middle and she said it's 0:59:31.240 --> 0:59:35.440 Katie Tunstall and Mell was just like, what are you 0:59:35.560 --> 0:59:40.080 talking about? Don't be ridiculous, Like this is insane. And 0:59:40.120 --> 0:59:43.160 they had my album in the house and she went 0:59:43.240 --> 0:59:46.080 and grabbed my album, grabbed a picture of their dad 0:59:46.160 --> 0:59:50.080 and just went look and lol went, oh my god, 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:54.480 they look exactly the same. And so that's just been 0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:56.960 a massive joy. But I'm very lucky, because you know, 0:59:57.000 --> 1:00:00.600 these things can be pretty tough, but it's it's really 1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:04.840 been a lovely knee chapter of my life. 1:00:06.680 --> 1:00:09.800 Just going to whatever happened with your mother and going forward, 1:00:09.880 --> 1:00:12.720 what was the meeting like? And then what happened thereafter. 1:00:12.520 --> 1:00:15.640 It was it was really bizarre. It was really strange 1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:20.480 because I'm I. You don't know how to do these 1:00:20.480 --> 1:00:22.440 things right? You did, There's no rule book for it. 1:00:22.480 --> 1:00:24.960 And she'd asked if I would like to stay with 1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:29.200 her and did I did I stay the night? I don't, 1:00:29.280 --> 1:00:32.160 I can't. I definitely went over there and like had 1:00:32.200 --> 1:00:37.880 dinner at their house and my family we sat at 1:00:37.880 --> 1:00:41.080 the table every night six o'clock. Mum made dinner. We'd 1:00:41.080 --> 1:00:43.840 sit around, they'd make us talk about what school was like, 1:00:43.960 --> 1:00:47.280 and like we'd have a family dinner. And then I 1:00:47.360 --> 1:00:49.840 went over to my biological mom's house and we had 1:00:50.400 --> 1:00:53.560 we got we had dinner in front of the TV, 1:00:54.600 --> 1:00:57.840 which I'd never done, and it just felt so alien 1:00:57.880 --> 1:01:00.600 and so weird. It was like just being so transported 1:01:00.640 --> 1:01:04.280 into someone else's completely different family life. And I had 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:08.960 a younger half brother, James, great guy, he was about eleven, 1:01:09.440 --> 1:01:13.000 and so we were sort of there eating, sort of 1:01:13.040 --> 1:01:17.160 trying to pretend that this was like normal, this like 1:01:17.360 --> 1:01:20.600 family dinner, and it was just so weird, and it was. 1:01:20.680 --> 1:01:25.320 It was, It was but wonderful. It was also like, 1:01:25.680 --> 1:01:28.520 you know, you're in all just going what I was 1:01:28.560 --> 1:01:33.400 inside that person who I've just met, and it was 1:01:33.440 --> 1:01:36.960 a very it was a difficult journey for a good 1:01:37.000 --> 1:01:39.840 few years. It was a hard time, and I'm really 1:01:39.840 --> 1:01:46.080 grateful that we overcame difficulties and that we're we're not 1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:48.920 in we're not we're not close, but we're in touch. 1:01:49.080 --> 1:01:50.920 You know, we'll message each other now and then. But 1:01:52.120 --> 1:01:57.080 it was definitely like it was definitely hard on my parents. 1:01:57.400 --> 1:02:01.960 You know, they were understandableving nervous and afraid for me 1:02:02.320 --> 1:02:05.919 that it would be hurtful or it would be disastrous, 1:02:06.040 --> 1:02:10.000 you know, and more even more difficult that I was. 1:02:10.400 --> 1:02:17.800 I then went on to become well known, and so 1:02:17.920 --> 1:02:20.320 I was always just very I knew I had to 1:02:20.320 --> 1:02:23.920 be quite careful around all of it. And it wasn't 1:02:23.960 --> 1:02:26.360 just about me. It was about my family as well. 1:02:28.640 --> 1:02:32.600 You don't have children, Is that because you didn't want them, 1:02:32.720 --> 1:02:35.280 or because you're too busy being an artist, or because 1:02:35.320 --> 1:02:37.520 the adoption, or because of whatever. 1:02:37.320 --> 1:02:43.400 All of the above. You nailed the main three. I 1:02:43.440 --> 1:02:47.720 think when going when I was in kind of boring 1:02:47.760 --> 1:02:53.640 Wikipedia page life that chapter, I never questioned it. I 1:02:53.680 --> 1:02:55.720 was just like, yeah, of course, of course I'm gonna 1:02:55.720 --> 1:02:59.160 have kids. That's what you do, you know. And then 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:03.000 got my married and my ex was very keen to 1:03:03.000 --> 1:03:05.040 have kids, and that was when it was just like, 1:03:05.200 --> 1:03:12.720 oh shit, I've never really spent time deeply thinking about this, 1:03:12.880 --> 1:03:17.520 which one should and one should before one gets married 1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:22.000 also and about what you both want, and it was 1:03:22.160 --> 1:03:26.360 just I was trying to keep it down and try, 1:03:26.600 --> 1:03:30.560 you know. We tried to have children, and thankfully I 1:03:30.600 --> 1:03:41.120 didn't get pregnant. And I think in another life, if 1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:43.960 I'd gone through that epiphany I talked about of like 1:03:44.040 --> 1:03:47.960 really sorting my shit out and really making peace with 1:03:48.000 --> 1:03:51.760 the adoption staff, and if I found all of that sooner, 1:03:51.840 --> 1:03:54.400 and if I'd met someone but I did want to 1:03:54.400 --> 1:03:57.600 have kids with, I think I would have probably really 1:03:57.680 --> 1:04:01.920 enjoyed it. And I but I just I really, in 1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:06.040 my heart, being honest with you, I don't think I 1:04:06.040 --> 1:04:08.080 would have wanted to be a musician at the same 1:04:08.080 --> 1:04:10.360 time as being a mum. I think I would have 1:04:10.400 --> 1:04:11.880 just wanted to be a mother. And I think that 1:04:11.880 --> 1:04:16.360 that I think that that that was a choice too. 1:04:16.640 --> 1:04:18.920 I was just like, you know, I feel like what 1:04:18.960 --> 1:04:23.320 I do creatively has a uniqueness to it, and I 1:04:23.320 --> 1:04:25.640 think I've got something to offer, and I think that 1:04:26.720 --> 1:04:29.080 it feels like a really positive purpose in the world. 1:04:30.520 --> 1:04:33.160 I have a very I have a very positive feedback 1:04:33.200 --> 1:04:35.480 from other human beings for what I do and what 1:04:35.520 --> 1:04:38.840 I share. And I just I didn't feel like I 1:04:38.880 --> 1:04:41.360 wanted to stop doing that and I didn't want to 1:04:41.440 --> 1:04:44.680 do I felt like I would not be good at 1:04:44.680 --> 1:04:45.720 doing both at the same time. 1:04:47.840 --> 1:04:50.200 So for those of us living in America, when we 1:04:50.240 --> 1:04:53.280 think of Saint Andrews, we think of golf. Yeah, is 1:04:53.320 --> 1:04:56.400 that something if you live in St. Andrews you think about? 1:04:57.720 --> 1:05:02.320 So growing up in Saint Andrew's I was slightly I 1:05:02.360 --> 1:05:05.480 was a tomboy and quite a rebellious kid, and the 1:05:05.520 --> 1:05:08.560 only women who were allowed into the RNA, the royal 1:05:08.600 --> 1:05:11.200 and ancient golf club in Saint Andrew's with the bar 1:05:11.280 --> 1:05:14.360 maide and the cleaner, and so I was like, well, 1:05:14.360 --> 1:05:18.440 that seems like a bunch of bullshit. So I was 1:05:18.680 --> 1:05:22.680 very like anti that scene because it just seemed stuck 1:05:22.760 --> 1:05:26.640 up and sexist. And I just I didn't like the 1:05:27.440 --> 1:05:32.200 boys club thing. Obviously it's changed now where you know, 1:05:32.280 --> 1:05:36.160 it's much much more equality in that sense, but it 1:05:36.320 --> 1:05:44.640 just never ever appealed to me. And I went on tour. 1:05:44.960 --> 1:05:47.520 Two weeks ago. I had a really great bus driver 1:05:47.640 --> 1:05:50.439 called Dino, and he took me for my first ever 1:05:50.520 --> 1:05:57.680 golf lesson. We went to Top Golf and it was awesome. 1:05:57.840 --> 1:06:01.200 I had a great time. So my dad would always 1:06:01.200 --> 1:06:02.720 take us to the Putt and Green. There was really 1:06:02.720 --> 1:06:04.720 cool litt putt and green called the Himalayas. It's sort 1:06:04.760 --> 1:06:06.560 of a bit like a mini you know, crazy mini 1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:08.760 golf where it's all these hills and you've got to 1:06:08.800 --> 1:06:14.600 get into the hole. And so I love that, but 1:06:14.640 --> 1:06:17.920 I was I was never interested in in adult golf. 1:06:18.120 --> 1:06:26.320 And I feel like maybe turning fifty, maybe it's just Jeanette. 1:06:26.360 --> 1:06:30.400 It's a genetic, DNA human thing that you just. 1:06:30.360 --> 1:06:33.360 To beat a dead horse. It's like, if I'm going 1:06:33.400 --> 1:06:36.560 to Saint Andrews, is it there's going to be a 1:06:36.600 --> 1:06:39.600 sign home of golf or people are going to say, oh, 1:06:39.640 --> 1:06:41.800 that's what we're famous for. Or if you live there, 1:06:41.840 --> 1:06:44.200 go yeah there's a golf course. But yeah, some people play. 1:06:44.200 --> 1:06:46.800 It's a big deal. It's a big deal people people 1:06:46.800 --> 1:06:49.160 are very proud of it and a lot of there's 1:06:49.160 --> 1:06:53.160 a lot of local great golfers and do you play. 1:06:53.280 --> 1:06:55.240 You know, I played as a kid. I don't play anymore. 1:06:55.360 --> 1:06:59.000 Yeah, no, I would, I would, I would. I would 1:06:59.000 --> 1:07:01.480 be persuaded man to have a go. 1:07:02.720 --> 1:07:05.160 Okay, how did you end up going to Kent? 1:07:05.680 --> 1:07:13.560 Yeah? So the school system in the UK, the Scottish 1:07:13.560 --> 1:07:16.040 school system is different from England. So in England you 1:07:16.080 --> 1:07:18.480 do what's called a levels and it's two years of 1:07:18.640 --> 1:07:23.600 kind of intense like three or four subjects. And in 1:07:23.640 --> 1:07:26.960 Scotland we had a different system, which was hires, which 1:07:27.440 --> 1:07:31.800 is less intense and you do more subjects. So I 1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:38.480 did five hires. I did art, music, French, history and English. 1:07:40.000 --> 1:07:43.720 And I was young for my year anyway, but I 1:07:43.800 --> 1:07:47.040 basically was able to graduate high school at seventeen. It 1:07:47.080 --> 1:07:50.720 was on my seventeenth birthday and I was really really 1:07:50.760 --> 1:07:52.600 ready to leave school. I didn't want to be in 1:07:52.680 --> 1:07:55.600 high school anymore, and I wanted to take a year 1:07:55.640 --> 1:08:00.400 out before going to university. And you know, there's all 1:08:00.440 --> 1:08:03.120 these amazing things that you can do on your gap 1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:05.600 year as we call it, but a lot of it 1:08:05.680 --> 1:08:07.560 was you had to be eighteen and I didn't want 1:08:07.560 --> 1:08:11.680 to go to UNI at seventeen. And my mom found 1:08:11.720 --> 1:08:15.440 this advert for this this organization called the English Speaking 1:08:15.520 --> 1:08:21.160 Union who sponsor kind of kids from America to come 1:08:21.200 --> 1:08:25.120 to Britain and vice versa, and I just kind of 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:28.200 went for this interview and I feel like I was 1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:30.800 like the special the special kid that got to go 1:08:31.080 --> 1:08:33.000 because all the other kids were like, you know, into 1:08:33.240 --> 1:08:38.680 kind of politics and it was very academic, and I 1:08:38.720 --> 1:08:40.920 felt like this sort of drama kid who got given 1:08:41.280 --> 1:08:45.000 the special arts award and got put. I got sent 1:08:45.040 --> 1:08:48.760 to Kent for a year, and it was it was 1:08:48.880 --> 1:08:50.520 really an amazing experience. 1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:56.640 Okay, I'm from Connecticut, are you. Yeah, that's northwestern Connecticut, 1:08:56.680 --> 1:09:02.920 which by Connecticut standards is the Boonies. Yeah, tradition prep 1:09:02.960 --> 1:09:07.080 school is sort of singular in that it's upper class. 1:09:07.240 --> 1:09:13.000 Oh yeah, white. Yeah, so Ken wasn't It wasn't like 1:09:14.080 --> 1:09:17.799 overwhelmingly white, because there was these really it was really interesting. 1:09:17.800 --> 1:09:22.080 There was these fact like groups of Chinese students, of 1:09:22.200 --> 1:09:25.920 Korean students, of black students, and it was actually like 1:09:26.320 --> 1:09:31.680 really quite segregate, like itself segregating into these sort of 1:09:31.720 --> 1:09:34.080 little gangs. And everyone got on great, but there was 1:09:34.400 --> 1:09:41.280 it was noticeable kind of groups of different students, but 1:09:41.400 --> 1:09:44.439 it was crazy rich, like they've got their own indoor 1:09:44.600 --> 1:09:47.720 ice hockey rink they've got on indoor swimming pool. I 1:09:47.880 --> 1:09:53.680 like studied photography, development and conducting and ceramics. You know, 1:09:53.800 --> 1:09:56.280 it was insane. 1:09:56.479 --> 1:09:57.519 But how did you fit in? 1:09:58.800 --> 1:10:01.400 I fit in pretty well. I mean I've never been 1:10:02.960 --> 1:10:06.320 I've never been a I was never a kid at 1:10:06.400 --> 1:10:10.760 school that had like a clique. I've never liked that. 1:10:11.200 --> 1:10:13.800 I've never been drawn to that. I like having different 1:10:13.800 --> 1:10:16.400 I like knowing lots of different people in different places. 1:10:16.400 --> 1:10:19.360 Which suits you suits me well as a musician. And 1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:27.920 I formed my first band at Kent School and my 1:10:28.200 --> 1:10:31.840 guitarist was he was a pothead and wanted to call 1:10:32.680 --> 1:10:36.040 wanted to call our band THHC. And I said, we 1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:38.240 can't do we can't do that. So we were called 1:10:38.240 --> 1:10:45.439 the Happy Campers as Code and it was just, you know, 1:10:45.520 --> 1:10:49.479 it was a very very safe, sheltered environment and I 1:10:49.479 --> 1:10:52.639 would just that was when I started organizing my first gigs. 1:10:53.040 --> 1:10:53.880 It was really fun. 1:11:01.920 --> 1:11:09.040 Okay, what does the average American not understand about Scotland? 1:11:10.600 --> 1:11:14.280 I don't can I can I use terrible language. Of course, 1:11:14.560 --> 1:11:20.920 they don't understand the word cunt. The reason it sounds 1:11:20.960 --> 1:11:23.479 so bad in America is because you pronounce the t. 1:11:24.360 --> 1:11:27.200 It just it makes it so much more offensive. It's 1:11:27.240 --> 1:11:31.520 like so much more biting, but it's actually an absolute 1:11:31.800 --> 1:11:38.160 term of endearment in Scotland. You're a great cunt. I'm 1:11:38.200 --> 1:11:40.920 good friends with I've become good friends with Craig Ferguson, 1:11:41.520 --> 1:11:44.839 and we both as Scottish people now living in America, 1:11:45.080 --> 1:11:49.240 we just love having this conversation. Just like the lack 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:52.960 of understanding of how of how endearing it can be. 1:11:55.720 --> 1:11:58.519 Okay, I go to Canada frequently and I know a 1:11:58.520 --> 1:12:02.800 lot of Canadians. Seemingly every Canadian in Los Angeles knows 1:12:02.840 --> 1:12:06.840 every other Canadian. Is it like Scott's Once you come 1:12:06.880 --> 1:12:09.000 to a place, every scott finds each other. 1:12:09.439 --> 1:12:12.000 It can be like that. I mean, Scotland's a really 1:12:12.040 --> 1:12:18.720 small country. It's smaller than Greater London. It's just it's 1:12:18.800 --> 1:12:25.519 incredible to me the musical heritage of that tiny little 1:12:25.560 --> 1:12:31.280 country and the impact and the breadth of genre that 1:12:30.840 --> 1:12:34.480 that have come out of that country. It's absolutely staggering 1:12:37.040 --> 1:12:41.360 and I can only say it's coming from you know, 1:12:41.479 --> 1:12:45.560 Iceland is similar with its with its music, but Scotland's incredible. 1:12:45.600 --> 1:12:48.559 I mean, you know, everything from the average white band 1:12:48.600 --> 1:12:52.960 to simple minds, the garbage to eurhythmics to I mean, 1:12:53.160 --> 1:12:57.760 on and on and on, you know, just fantastic musical 1:12:58.280 --> 1:13:04.120 legacy and history and current you know, current artists as well, 1:13:04.280 --> 1:13:10.400 really exciting and I it's it's one of the reasons 1:13:10.479 --> 1:13:14.480 I like America is that America just fucking love Scotland. 1:13:15.320 --> 1:13:17.320 They love Scottish stuff. They just want you to just 1:13:17.479 --> 1:13:20.360 like say stuff, just to like say something. Can you 1:13:20.439 --> 1:13:22.679 just say something? I just want to hear you say 1:13:22.680 --> 1:13:27.479 something else, like like what and then because that's brilliant 1:13:29.760 --> 1:13:33.880 and they just love it. And it's you just feel 1:13:33.920 --> 1:13:41.080 extremely welcomed in the States being Scottish. And yeah, so 1:13:41.720 --> 1:13:46.519 it's you're often put in touch with Scottish people that 1:13:46.560 --> 1:13:53.200 people know and do you know them? I mean sometimes, Okay, 1:13:53.280 --> 1:13:55.960 you finish a kid's school, then what do you do? 1:13:57.280 --> 1:14:01.120 So I finished at Kent. I my roommate Kent had 1:14:01.240 --> 1:14:04.519 wanted to introduce me to her hippie friend from Vermont, 1:14:04.760 --> 1:14:07.160 so thinking that I would fall in love with him, 1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:09.280 which I did, and I went off and spent the 1:14:09.280 --> 1:14:13.120 summer in Vermont in a basically on kind of hippie 1:14:13.160 --> 1:14:16.360 commune vibe, you know, the house where his mom had 1:14:16.640 --> 1:14:20.679 the artist mother had like built the house herself and 1:14:20.760 --> 1:14:24.759 we bathed in the pond with like eco friends. 1:14:25.040 --> 1:14:27.559 I went to college Vermont. We had a house in Vermont. 1:14:27.560 --> 1:14:29.080 I gotta ask, we're in Vermont? 1:14:29.160 --> 1:14:33.959 It was. It was near Fairfield, Okay, not far from Burlington, 1:14:34.280 --> 1:14:38.679 twenty twenty minutes for Burlington or something. And so I 1:14:38.720 --> 1:14:41.960 busked a lot in Burlington at that time, and it 1:14:42.040 --> 1:14:44.640 was great. I loved it. I loved life there. I 1:14:44.720 --> 1:14:47.160 just loved it. I would have stayed forever, but I 1:14:48.320 --> 1:14:50.600 had to go home and start UNI. And it was 1:14:50.640 --> 1:14:53.280 a huge heartbreak for me. That's where other side of 1:14:53.280 --> 1:14:57.519 the world came from. Huge heartbreak, leaving this guy and 1:14:57.640 --> 1:15:00.640 leaving America. And I just made a I was like, 1:15:00.760 --> 1:15:03.680 I'm getting myself back to America. I have to get 1:15:03.680 --> 1:15:04.360 back to America. 1:15:04.920 --> 1:15:08.240 Okay, I gotta ask, have you had any contact with 1:15:08.280 --> 1:15:10.800 that guy subsequently going back? 1:15:11.640 --> 1:15:14.920 So I did, right, I did, and I did come 1:15:14.960 --> 1:15:16.840 back and I saw him again and I was just like, oh, 1:15:16.880 --> 1:15:18.680 he's you know, it's not the same. We're not We're 1:15:18.720 --> 1:15:24.200 not young and innocent anymore. And then not that long ago, 1:15:24.720 --> 1:15:28.160 I kind of looked him up and he is a carpenter. 1:15:28.280 --> 1:15:31.320 I guess he's would work whatever, but he's like a married, 1:15:31.439 --> 1:15:33.479 like kid on the way or had a kid or something. 1:15:34.040 --> 1:15:35.800 And I'd messaged and I said, I'm going to be 1:15:35.840 --> 1:15:38.040 in Vermont and it would be so nice to see you, 1:15:38.880 --> 1:15:41.200 and and he's like, yeah, that would be good. And 1:15:41.880 --> 1:15:43.880 then the time came around where I was going to come. 1:15:43.960 --> 1:15:46.080 It was just on Instagram, right, I was just messaging. 1:15:46.320 --> 1:15:49.520 Time came around to come to Vermont and he he disappeared, 1:15:50.000 --> 1:15:54.120 like his account didn't exist anymore, and our messages had disappeared. 1:15:54.160 --> 1:15:56.559 So I was like, oh, well that was not meant. 1:15:56.320 --> 1:16:01.920 To be right. Okay, you go to college or you 1:16:02.040 --> 1:16:06.000 say university where and what's that experience like? 1:16:07.320 --> 1:16:11.599 So I get into It was one of the University 1:16:11.640 --> 1:16:14.840 of London colleges, which is called Royal Holloway and it 1:16:14.960 --> 1:16:17.519 was in near Windsor Castle, so it was not in 1:16:17.560 --> 1:16:20.160 central London, which was really disappointing to me because I 1:16:20.240 --> 1:16:22.559 was not really that interested in going to university. It 1:16:22.600 --> 1:16:25.240 was really just a means to be in London to 1:16:25.320 --> 1:16:29.040 do gigs. I knew from seventeen eighteen that this is 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:32.000 what I was going to do, but I was studying 1:16:32.120 --> 1:16:35.840 their theater studies program. Which was really really good. They 1:16:35.840 --> 1:16:39.040 have an amazing theater studies program. I did do a 1:16:39.160 --> 1:16:41.479 joint honors with music, but I ended up giving up music. 1:16:41.520 --> 1:16:45.320 It was like doing math. It was dreadful. There was nothing. 1:16:45.760 --> 1:16:49.240 It was just an absolute science class. I was sitting 1:16:49.240 --> 1:16:54.000 in this lecture for Shankirian analysis and it was basically 1:16:54.040 --> 1:16:59.479 this guy who discovered that you could overlay this sort 1:16:59.520 --> 1:17:03.800 of you know so analysis of Renaissance classical music, and 1:17:03.840 --> 1:17:06.439 it was all fit to this thing. And I was like, oh, whoop, 1:17:06.479 --> 1:17:09.439 do do well done? Like what am I doing in 1:17:09.479 --> 1:17:11.760 this class? So I gave the music part up and 1:17:11.880 --> 1:17:15.760 just did the theater studies and it was It was fantastic. 1:17:15.800 --> 1:17:17.840 There was a couple of One of the classes that 1:17:17.880 --> 1:17:23.120 I remember most fondly was I did I did a 1:17:23.160 --> 1:17:26.200 course in camidia de larte, which is the Italian kind 1:17:26.200 --> 1:17:30.360 of original clowning. And I loved that class and I 1:17:30.479 --> 1:17:35.120 loved learning about the role of the clown and the 1:17:35.160 --> 1:17:38.600 traditional role of the clown. And what really stuck with 1:17:38.720 --> 1:17:44.479 me was was that the reason society loves the clown 1:17:44.840 --> 1:17:48.400 is that they feel it's medicinal. They feel such relief 1:17:48.840 --> 1:17:55.200 in watching someone else fail and watching awful things befall 1:17:56.600 --> 1:18:00.720 someone else. It befalls the clown or the gesture, and 1:18:00.760 --> 1:18:04.000 they don't have to suffer that themselves. But they know 1:18:04.080 --> 1:18:06.519 it's you know, it's not actually happening. They're watching it 1:18:06.560 --> 1:18:11.240 being acted. But I loved that whole idea of the 1:18:11.320 --> 1:18:16.240 service of the clown who has to deal with all 1:18:16.240 --> 1:18:20.840 these terrible things happening to him. And one of the 1:18:21.840 --> 1:18:25.639 one of the exercises that we did was the whole room. 1:18:25.840 --> 1:18:27.880 The whole class had to huddle into the corner of 1:18:27.880 --> 1:18:30.920 the room and one person had to come in and 1:18:30.960 --> 1:18:32.800 they had to come in and stand in front of 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:37.600 the huddle of thirty and everybody would cheer, ah, just 1:18:37.640 --> 1:18:41.080 go crazy. And then they had to do it again, 1:18:41.600 --> 1:18:45.240 and the whole class would boo and jeer and shout 1:18:45.680 --> 1:18:49.719 nasty things at you. And we had this fantastic teacher 1:18:49.800 --> 1:18:54.360 called Angela Dicastro, who was a well known Brazilian comedia 1:18:54.400 --> 1:18:58.280 alerted clown. She still does shows now, and she said, 1:18:58.320 --> 1:19:05.559 you have to understand, the clown cannot be affected by 1:19:05.600 --> 1:19:10.040 the crowd. You cannot let the crowd dictate your reaction 1:19:10.160 --> 1:19:14.120 and your response, and because how you respond is the 1:19:14.200 --> 1:19:18.120 clowns show. It's not in there, it's here. It's the 1:19:18.320 --> 1:19:22.360 clown mask that responds to how to what the crowd needs, 1:19:23.320 --> 1:19:27.000 you know, and that was that went deep as a performer. 1:19:27.040 --> 1:19:30.080 So I got lots of really cool There was a 1:19:30.120 --> 1:19:32.960 lot of learning from a performance point of view, but 1:19:33.040 --> 1:19:35.600 I mean I think I was basically using it to 1:19:35.600 --> 1:19:40.280 get gigs. And so that was three years, and weirdly 1:19:40.400 --> 1:19:42.240 for me, at the end of three years, I had 1:19:42.280 --> 1:19:44.639 not found a band. I won Battle of the Bands, 1:19:44.640 --> 1:19:47.640 which I was very proud of, but I did not 1:19:47.800 --> 1:19:50.120 find a band. I did not find my people in London, 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:51.519 and I ended up going all the way back to 1:19:51.520 --> 1:19:54.720 St Andrew's and because really the most exciting musicians I 1:19:54.800 --> 1:19:56.080 knew at that time was still there. 1:19:56.840 --> 1:19:58.960 Okay, before we go there, you talked about having your 1:19:59.000 --> 1:20:04.439 first band it Kent. Yeah, when did you first start playing? 1:20:04.920 --> 1:20:09.400 I started, well, I I was definitely I definitely came 1:20:09.400 --> 1:20:13.719 out the womb musical. It was always, it was always present. 1:20:13.880 --> 1:20:16.560 I was always drawn to musical instruments when I was 1:20:16.680 --> 1:20:18.600 very very young. And actually I've got it on the 1:20:18.640 --> 1:20:22.120 wall in my little whiskey room at home where I 1:20:22.160 --> 1:20:25.479 couldn't write and I was trying to write music. You 1:20:25.479 --> 1:20:29.280 can just see this little baby, this little baby handwriting 1:20:29.320 --> 1:20:32.080 I'm trying to write musical notes and my mom being 1:20:32.080 --> 1:20:34.800 a teacher. It really just warms my heart in the 1:20:34.800 --> 1:20:39.000 bottom right hand corner. It just says, good, my mom's 1:20:39.080 --> 1:20:44.000 marked my attempt at writing music. So I asked my 1:20:44.080 --> 1:20:47.720 parents for a piano when I was four, and then 1:20:47.800 --> 1:20:50.799 I just was It was very easy. I was very natural, 1:20:51.280 --> 1:20:55.680 you know, I learned very fast. I did years of 1:20:55.800 --> 1:20:57.840 lessons on piano. I never got very good at piano, 1:20:57.880 --> 1:21:01.200 it wasn't my instrument. And then I also did classical flute, 1:21:01.240 --> 1:21:05.000 so I did all my flute exams. And then when 1:21:05.000 --> 1:21:09.240 I was fifteen, at high school in Scotland, you start 1:21:09.240 --> 1:21:11.640 getting given free time to study for exams. And I 1:21:11.760 --> 1:21:13.960 used to go up to the music music department and 1:21:13.960 --> 1:21:16.920 there was a guitar teacher called Tim, and I used 1:21:16.960 --> 1:21:18.880 to just go in there, I say, can I borrow 1:21:18.960 --> 1:21:23.320 a guitar? And I'm very grateful to him because he 1:21:23.439 --> 1:21:26.519 never tried to get me to take lessons. He just 1:21:26.560 --> 1:21:28.840 would let me borrow guitar so I could teach myself. 1:21:28.920 --> 1:21:33.479 And so I never had lessons in guitar or voice, 1:21:34.760 --> 1:21:38.120 but I had all my theory and background understanding through 1:21:38.400 --> 1:21:40.760 learning piano from a really young age. So it was 1:21:40.800 --> 1:21:42.360 a nice way of doing it where I wasn't being 1:21:42.360 --> 1:21:45.800 instructed in the things that I was being creative with. 1:21:46.439 --> 1:21:49.360 But I had that kind of background, and so as 1:21:49.439 --> 1:21:51.639 soon as I as soon as I started playing guitar, 1:21:51.720 --> 1:21:53.920 I was like, Oh, this is it, this is what 1:21:53.960 --> 1:21:56.880 I'm going to do. I was into acting when I 1:21:56.880 --> 1:22:00.960 was younger, and I remember I got chosen to go 1:22:01.000 --> 1:22:03.000 and do some role Shakespeare company thing and I was like, 1:22:03.080 --> 1:22:06.280 these people are no beds. They're just I was just like, 1:22:06.360 --> 1:22:09.680 they're just It was just so like, it was so 1:22:09.840 --> 1:22:12.320 performative all the time, and I was like, there's no 1:22:12.439 --> 1:22:14.519 way I could be surrounded by this. It would just 1:22:14.520 --> 1:22:17.040 go mad. And I also just wanted to write the 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:19.680 words myself. I didn't want someone telling me how to 1:22:19.720 --> 1:22:22.360 say things and how to say other people's words. So 1:22:22.520 --> 1:22:27.600 music was just the natural kind of artistic swivel to 1:22:27.680 --> 1:22:30.000 go into that instead where I'd just be my own boss. 1:22:31.680 --> 1:22:36.280 So when you were in college at the university near 1:22:36.360 --> 1:22:41.880 the Castle, yeah you say that you busked. You say 1:22:41.920 --> 1:22:44.320 you won the Battle of the bands, but you didn't 1:22:44.360 --> 1:22:48.200 find the band I didn't how much did you busk? 1:22:48.320 --> 1:22:50.160 Were you looking for a band? How do you win 1:22:50.200 --> 1:22:51.759 the Battle of the bands without a band? 1:22:52.360 --> 1:22:55.880 So it was me and a mandolin player, my friend 1:22:55.960 --> 1:22:59.280 Jay right Mandalin's, and it was I really remember because 1:22:59.280 --> 1:23:02.519 there was this like goth band who'd entered and they 1:23:02.520 --> 1:23:04.519 were just so sure they were going to win, you know, 1:23:05.000 --> 1:23:07.360 and they were so pissed that they lost to a 1:23:07.400 --> 1:23:09.560 girl with a guitar and a guy with a mandolin. 1:23:10.720 --> 1:23:13.120 I've still got the poster, and my mom and dad 1:23:13.160 --> 1:23:14.880 had come down. They were visiting me at the time, 1:23:14.920 --> 1:23:17.120 and it was just awesome me winning battle with the 1:23:17.160 --> 1:23:22.560 bands against the golf band. So as soon as I 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:25.760 went to UNI, I started I was just straight to 1:23:25.800 --> 1:23:28.920 the kind of union students, union like events guy making 1:23:28.920 --> 1:23:30.680 friends with them and making sure that I could do 1:23:30.720 --> 1:23:33.240 a gig in the pub every you know, once a month. 1:23:34.200 --> 1:23:36.800 And then I had a little scooter and I used 1:23:36.800 --> 1:23:41.120 to go to Windsor where the castle is, which wasn't 1:23:41.160 --> 1:23:42.840 far away, and I would just get my guitar out 1:23:42.880 --> 1:23:45.400 and bosk. And I'd sort of learned busking from my 1:23:45.439 --> 1:23:47.439 Scottish friends when I was living in St Andrews. They 1:23:47.520 --> 1:23:49.920 used to do that a lot, and I never busked 1:23:49.920 --> 1:23:52.800 at home because I would have been too embarrassed for 1:23:52.960 --> 1:23:56.120 my parents' friends to be like throwing tenpence pieces into 1:23:56.120 --> 1:24:00.400 my guitar case. So I did it in London, in 1:24:01.040 --> 1:24:04.000 Windsor out by college, and then I would go back 1:24:04.040 --> 1:24:09.200 to America for summers. My best friend from Kent, Amanda, 1:24:09.920 --> 1:24:13.839 had gone on to do photography at the Institute of Chicago, 1:24:13.960 --> 1:24:16.920 and so I had a summer doing like open mic 1:24:17.040 --> 1:24:18.920 nights in Chicago that was wicked and I had a 1:24:18.960 --> 1:24:23.240 great time doing that. So I was just cutting my teeth, 1:24:23.479 --> 1:24:27.519 you know. And bosking is such an amazing way to 1:24:27.680 --> 1:24:31.880 learn your craft. It's just unparalleled because no one's there 1:24:31.920 --> 1:24:35.240 to listen to you. I'm quite a purist with busking. 1:24:35.280 --> 1:24:38.559 I get very frustrated with boscos who use amplification. I 1:24:38.600 --> 1:24:42.880 don't think they should people quite some people quite like it. 1:24:43.200 --> 1:24:45.839 I would like to hear you just with an instrument, 1:24:46.200 --> 1:24:48.720 making people stop and listen to you, without having your 1:24:49.000 --> 1:24:52.439 fucking amp at eleven and not giving anyone any choice. 1:24:53.600 --> 1:24:55.800 And it's also like, if you could afford an amp, 1:24:56.040 --> 1:24:58.720 why are you bosking? I couldn't afford an amp when 1:24:58.720 --> 1:24:59.439 I was bosking. 1:25:00.600 --> 1:25:03.400 So how often did you actually busk? 1:25:03.840 --> 1:25:06.320 I would just do it at the weekend, so not 1:25:06.439 --> 1:25:09.160 every weekend, but i'd sometimes go into London. I remember 1:25:09.479 --> 1:25:12.000 I remember busking in Camden, which is, you know, like 1:25:12.040 --> 1:25:16.519 the kind of Venice Beach of London. And I remember 1:25:16.600 --> 1:25:23.200 playing and this young rock and roll looking dude puts 1:25:23.200 --> 1:25:25.760 a pound coin which was a big deal, into my 1:25:25.800 --> 1:25:28.639 guitar case and I was like, oh my god, that's 1:25:28.680 --> 1:25:32.040 Mark Owen from Take That and Take That, where like 1:25:32.360 --> 1:25:34.599 they had been huge, you know, they were like our 1:25:34.760 --> 1:25:39.880 end sync. And I was like Mark Owen and he goes, 1:25:40.680 --> 1:25:44.160 you are really good, and I said, give us a fiver. 1:25:44.720 --> 1:25:49.880 You've beat your massive And then I met him, like 1:25:50.600 --> 1:25:54.439 I guess ten years later, after I'd had success and 1:25:54.560 --> 1:25:57.479 Take That hadn't had their big reunion, and he'd had 1:25:57.640 --> 1:26:02.320 a mildly successful career but it hadn't really worked out. 1:26:02.880 --> 1:26:04.639 And I said Mark, and we met and he knew 1:26:04.680 --> 1:26:08.240 who I was at that point and he said, uh, oh, 1:26:08.320 --> 1:26:10.080 it's so nice to see her. You know, well done. 1:26:10.080 --> 1:26:12.000 And I was like, you gave me a quid when 1:26:12.040 --> 1:26:15.080 I was busking in Camden, and he goes, I might 1:26:15.120 --> 1:26:20.920 need to ask for that back. But yeah, so i'd 1:26:20.960 --> 1:26:22.320 I would bust pretty regularly. 1:26:30.000 --> 1:26:32.960 Okay, you say, oh, well, you know you're a mark 1:26:33.040 --> 1:26:37.280 from take that? Why not a fiber? To what degree? 1:26:37.600 --> 1:26:40.720 These words have negative connotations? But I don't mean him 1:26:40.760 --> 1:26:43.600 that way. To what degree were you? And are you 1:26:43.840 --> 1:26:45.040 cheeky and aggressive? 1:26:46.200 --> 1:26:49.880 Oh, Dad's not that. I don't take that negatively at all. 1:26:51.360 --> 1:26:56.200 I am. I definitely have cheeky and aggressive aspects to 1:26:56.280 --> 1:27:02.760 my personality. My dad was incredibly competitive, so I had 1:27:02.760 --> 1:27:10.120 a very competitive streak in me growing up, and I 1:27:10.200 --> 1:27:14.400 got in real hot water once in an early interview. 1:27:14.960 --> 1:27:17.400 I remember that the journalist was guy called John Lewis. 1:27:17.400 --> 1:27:19.880 He was writing for I think it was Big Issue 1:27:19.920 --> 1:27:22.880 or so, one of the one of the magazines where 1:27:23.000 --> 1:27:26.880 it was like, you know, longer music interviews, and he 1:27:27.000 --> 1:27:29.840 was baiting me and I fell for it and it 1:27:29.880 --> 1:27:31.960 was so annoying, and he just said, you know, people 1:27:32.000 --> 1:27:34.920 compare you to Dido, and Dido was really big at 1:27:34.920 --> 1:27:39.559 the time, and I was really angry at this. He'd 1:27:39.560 --> 1:27:42.200 been kind of nipping at me during this interview and 1:27:42.240 --> 1:27:44.360 I was really green behind the ears and I didn't. 1:27:45.000 --> 1:27:51.160 I didn't. I wasn't in great control of my of 1:27:51.240 --> 1:27:55.720 my kind of response at this at that stage. Yet 1:27:56.720 --> 1:28:00.439 and uh and this this really bothered me because Dido 1:28:00.720 --> 1:28:05.639 was a studio artist and I felt like Dido's music 1:28:05.680 --> 1:28:07.160 and it was huge at the time, you know, and 1:28:07.160 --> 1:28:11.519 I felt like Dido's music was it had done so 1:28:11.720 --> 1:28:15.080 well and it was its own thing. But I did 1:28:15.160 --> 1:28:18.559 not feel that Dido was known for her in her 1:28:18.640 --> 1:28:22.639 live performance. It didn't feel like that was what Dido's 1:28:23.280 --> 1:28:27.240 career was really about. And I also didn't feel like 1:28:27.360 --> 1:28:34.360 she was a a very impressive singer, you know, her 1:28:34.439 --> 1:28:40.559 her style was unique, and the kind of mixture of 1:28:40.560 --> 1:28:44.599 her and her brother Roles production it made something that 1:28:44.760 --> 1:28:47.080 really hit a zeitgeist. But I did not feel like 1:28:47.160 --> 1:28:51.760 she would be in the pantheon of Aretha Franklin, you know, 1:28:52.439 --> 1:28:58.000 or you know, ROBERTA. Flack amazing singers. And I really 1:28:58.600 --> 1:29:03.200 prided myself, and pride is exactly the word that was, 1:29:03.680 --> 1:29:06.719 you know, what was getting poked at this point where 1:29:06.760 --> 1:29:09.879 I hoped that I was standing out as a vocalist, 1:29:10.880 --> 1:29:13.240 and I just lost my temper and I said, well, 1:29:13.360 --> 1:29:17.559 that's not fair, Diety can't fucking sing, which was you know, 1:29:18.320 --> 1:29:24.519 a really unkind, hurtful way of expressing what I was 1:29:24.520 --> 1:29:29.760 trying to say. And of course that's like the headline, 1:29:30.520 --> 1:29:33.799 and I wouldn't And I think I did a publicly 1:29:33.840 --> 1:29:35.960 apologize after saying that because it wasn't a nice thing 1:29:36.000 --> 1:29:38.519 to say. And it's not true either. She can sing, 1:29:38.600 --> 1:29:42.800 It's just I was annoyed at being thrown in. I 1:29:42.880 --> 1:29:48.400 was also very touchy about being classed as a pop 1:29:48.439 --> 1:29:53.320 singer when I didn't feel like one. And I suppose 1:29:53.400 --> 1:29:55.679 back to your question about being a woman in music, 1:29:55.800 --> 1:29:58.800 that was something that was really funny. I could put 1:29:58.920 --> 1:30:03.160 three four man magazines on the table of reviews of me, 1:30:03.360 --> 1:30:05.719 and one said I sounded like b York, one said 1:30:05.720 --> 1:30:09.080 I sounded like Dido, one said I sounded like Janice Joplin, 1:30:09.400 --> 1:30:12.400 and one said I sounded like Joni Mitchell. And I'm like, well, 1:30:12.400 --> 1:30:14.920 make you fucking mind up because you can't sound like 1:30:15.200 --> 1:30:17.880 the only thing is we've all got tits, so like, 1:30:20.040 --> 1:30:24.160 can we have some honesty here? Like that doesn't make sense? 1:30:25.479 --> 1:30:27.880 So yeah, navigating that, I don't know why I started 1:30:27.920 --> 1:30:29.080 telling the story. I can't remember. 1:30:29.439 --> 1:30:32.080 So you go back to seeing Andrews after college? Then what. 1:30:35.000 --> 1:30:39.360 Then if someone had told me at fifteen years old 1:30:39.600 --> 1:30:42.559 that it was going to take my lifetime again to 1:30:42.680 --> 1:30:44.880 actually get a record out. That would have been very 1:30:44.920 --> 1:30:49.680 sobering for me. So I go back to St Andrews 1:30:49.880 --> 1:30:54.080 and I was just adamant to not sign a record deal. 1:30:55.320 --> 1:31:01.679 My mentor, Kin Kriso, was very un establishment, very very 1:31:01.720 --> 1:31:04.479 anti industry. He'd had, I think he'd had a brush 1:31:04.520 --> 1:31:08.800 with the record label and was fiercely independent and I 1:31:08.880 --> 1:31:12.200 just wanted to be cool like them, and so I 1:31:12.280 --> 1:31:15.200 really wanted to do it independently. So I was sort 1:31:15.240 --> 1:31:21.960 of getting by on unemployment benefit and trying to get 1:31:21.960 --> 1:31:26.280 gigs and applying for arts grants which I never got, 1:31:27.200 --> 1:31:31.360 and getting gigs was really really tough in Edinburgh and 1:31:31.400 --> 1:31:35.479 Saint Andrews. It was just it was a and R. 1:31:35.520 --> 1:31:40.760 Guys were not coming up to Scotland back then. And 1:31:41.520 --> 1:31:44.800 my other mentor Bobby Heatley, who ran a studio in 1:31:45.360 --> 1:31:48.200 rehearsal space, and he recognized that I had talent and 1:31:48.240 --> 1:31:50.679 he would really help me out. He was really helpful 1:31:50.720 --> 1:31:52.839 because obviously, you know, you don't have money for that stuff. 1:31:52.880 --> 1:31:55.439 So it was really great getting some demos together and 1:31:55.479 --> 1:31:58.559 being able to rehearse a band. But he said, get 1:31:58.560 --> 1:32:01.840 your publishing deal. Get your publishing deal before you get 1:32:01.840 --> 1:32:04.160 your record deal. Don't sign your record deal for money. 1:32:05.400 --> 1:32:07.920 And that was great advice, and so I did that. 1:32:08.000 --> 1:32:10.200 I would keep whenever I could. I would go down 1:32:10.240 --> 1:32:12.640 to London and I would play try and get in 1:32:12.920 --> 1:32:17.160 open mics and showcases, and I'd be phoning random numbers 1:32:17.160 --> 1:32:22.519 for record label offices or publishing label offices. And it 1:32:22.640 --> 1:32:24.720 was dawning on me for sure that I was going 1:32:24.800 --> 1:32:28.200 to have to pursue a deal, that it was not 1:32:28.240 --> 1:32:31.479 going to happen. Certainly if I stayed in Scotland and 1:32:31.560 --> 1:32:33.240 tried to do this on my own, it was just 1:32:33.280 --> 1:32:38.120 like not happening. And one of my friends, Vic Galloway, 1:32:38.160 --> 1:32:41.760 who's a radio presenter. He'd been in a kind of 1:32:41.760 --> 1:32:45.360 punk band called miracle Head and Edinburgh was friends with 1:32:45.400 --> 1:32:48.080 all the people I knew. He got a job on 1:32:48.200 --> 1:32:51.000 indie radio on Radio One, which is like a big deal. 1:32:51.040 --> 1:32:54.840 It was like a late night kind of indie underground 1:32:55.600 --> 1:32:59.679 radio show. And I was like, play my song, come on, Vic, 1:32:59.720 --> 1:33:02.600 play my song, and he wouldn't play it and he 1:33:02.720 --> 1:33:06.559 just said, no, you don't belong on my show. You 1:33:06.680 --> 1:33:09.640 need to get on mainstream radio. I was like well, 1:33:09.680 --> 1:33:11.559 how the hell am I meant to do that? Like, 1:33:12.040 --> 1:33:14.040 can't you help me out? He just he was just 1:33:14.080 --> 1:33:16.080 like no, And at the time I was so angry 1:33:16.120 --> 1:33:21.040 that he wouldn't help me. And then, you know, at 1:33:21.040 --> 1:33:23.719 that point, it was fully five years later my first 1:33:23.760 --> 1:33:27.000 single was getting played on mainstream radio, and he was right, 1:33:27.600 --> 1:33:29.439 it wasn't. That wasn't where I was meant to be. 1:33:29.560 --> 1:33:31.120 And I had to leave Saint Andrews and I had 1:33:31.120 --> 1:33:33.519 to leave Scotland and I had to I had to 1:33:33.600 --> 1:33:39.479 leave my little punk indie folk family and be what 1:33:39.520 --> 1:33:42.240 I was actually meant to do, do what I was 1:33:42.240 --> 1:33:44.880 meant to do, which was much more mainstream. 1:33:44.560 --> 1:33:48.320 Okay, a little bit slower. You're nobody from nowhere in Scotland. 1:33:49.120 --> 1:33:52.320 You come to London and you get a publishing deal, 1:33:52.479 --> 1:33:53.640 no problem. 1:33:54.520 --> 1:33:56.719 No, it wasn't no problem. I mean it took years. 1:33:56.920 --> 1:34:00.799 So this is my entire twenties. So I finish college 1:34:00.960 --> 1:34:05.479 at twenty one and the publishing deal happens at twenty nine, 1:34:06.600 --> 1:34:09.080 so it's yeah, it's a. 1:34:09.000 --> 1:34:14.559 Long time twenty years later. Who owns those songs? 1:34:14.760 --> 1:34:20.920 Well, so I signed to Sony Publishing. I was with 1:34:21.000 --> 1:34:26.559 them for twenty years and then COVID happens, and I 1:34:26.720 --> 1:34:32.000 have just decided to buy a new move into a 1:34:32.040 --> 1:34:36.559 new place in Tapanga. I had a big old tour booked, 1:34:37.080 --> 1:34:40.040 and I take out a big old loan to upgrade 1:34:40.120 --> 1:34:44.600 my life. And then suddenly there ain't no gigs, but 1:34:44.720 --> 1:34:48.559 you still got to pay your loan back, right, And 1:34:50.080 --> 1:34:55.719 the kind of publishing deals had started, the catalog deals 1:34:55.760 --> 1:34:59.320 had begun. At that point where you know, companies like 1:34:59.400 --> 1:35:03.880 Hypnosis and Primary Wave, who I've ended up working with, 1:35:05.840 --> 1:35:08.559 I really just had to make a business decision. And 1:35:08.640 --> 1:35:10.920 I was just like, this is a business and I 1:35:10.960 --> 1:35:16.719 can either face this really really nightmarish situation right now 1:35:17.439 --> 1:35:24.080 where everything I have is in jeopardy, or I work 1:35:24.120 --> 1:35:27.120 with this company. And the crazy thing about Primary Wave, 1:35:27.160 --> 1:35:30.000 who I'm not working with, was that Larry Mestel, who's 1:35:30.040 --> 1:35:32.679 the head of Primary Wave, had actually been at Virgin 1:35:32.720 --> 1:35:36.400 Records when I first came over to America and set 1:35:36.479 --> 1:35:40.679 and we had this amazing meeting and he said, he said, 1:35:41.880 --> 1:35:44.240 he handed over to the next person at Virgin. He said, 1:35:44.280 --> 1:35:47.000 whatever you do, do not fuck up Katie Tunstall. She's 1:35:47.040 --> 1:35:50.479 the next Melissa Etheridge. And he said, they fucked it up, 1:35:52.240 --> 1:35:54.120 and he said, and I want to make right by you, 1:35:54.400 --> 1:35:56.519 and I want to sign you, and I want to 1:35:56.560 --> 1:35:58.439 share your publishing and I want to make it worth 1:35:58.479 --> 1:36:01.400 more and I the deal with them, and I'm and 1:36:01.880 --> 1:36:03.800 I have a great relationship. 1:36:03.240 --> 1:36:05.599 With Okay, just to break it down, so you sold 1:36:05.600 --> 1:36:06.160 them half of the. 1:36:06.160 --> 1:36:09.519 Publishing, Well, I don't really want to go in. 1:36:09.720 --> 1:36:11.880 Let me put a different You're still own part of 1:36:11.920 --> 1:36:14.479 the publishing or did you sell a part part? 1:36:14.560 --> 1:36:14.760 Yeah? 1:36:14.960 --> 1:36:18.960 Part yeah? They they Larry was like, don't get rid 1:36:18.960 --> 1:36:20.360 of all of it. You should keep something. 1:36:21.320 --> 1:36:24.960 Primary Wave has a label. Are you working with their 1:36:25.040 --> 1:36:25.679 label too? 1:36:27.479 --> 1:36:32.960 Well? Primary Wave also owns Sun Records, So I put 1:36:32.960 --> 1:36:35.320 a record out on Sun Records, which was a real 1:36:35.920 --> 1:36:38.920 It was a huge honor of my career to have 1:36:38.640 --> 1:36:42.200 a record out on Son and that was my duet's 1:36:42.240 --> 1:36:46.720 record with Suzi Quatro. But I really look forward to 1:36:46.800 --> 1:36:50.240 keep doing stuff with them, and we've got another project 1:36:50.240 --> 1:36:52.840 in the works that would be great to they're they're 1:36:52.920 --> 1:36:56.360 very excited about maybe doing on so again. So it's 1:36:56.479 --> 1:36:59.960 it's a there. There are just a very kind of vibrant, 1:37:00.280 --> 1:37:06.680 excited creative company that want to do stuff. Whereas you 1:37:06.720 --> 1:37:08.720 know before I would be having to like we'd be 1:37:08.840 --> 1:37:12.000 knocking on doors going can you not find anything that 1:37:12.040 --> 1:37:14.800 my music can get synced with? And it was just dead, 1:37:15.560 --> 1:37:17.519 nothing was going on, and so it's just it was 1:37:17.720 --> 1:37:21.639 really nice to work. It's in general now that I've 1:37:21.680 --> 1:37:27.720 also signed to BMG for publishing moving forward, and I 1:37:27.800 --> 1:37:31.400 love the BMG UK amazing company. They just they're just 1:37:31.560 --> 1:37:35.720 music fans. These people just love music, and that's how 1:37:35.760 --> 1:37:38.200 I remember it being when I first started, and it's 1:37:38.200 --> 1:37:42.120 how I remember that tailing off where all the lawyers 1:37:42.120 --> 1:37:45.760 and accountants started running the record labels and it just 1:37:45.840 --> 1:37:50.960 felt so sterile. And it just feels really nice to 1:37:50.960 --> 1:37:52.960 get back to working with teams of people who were 1:37:53.080 --> 1:37:58.120 genuinely it's still very excited by new music and old music. 1:37:58.880 --> 1:38:03.320 So you moved to London and how do you ultimately 1:38:03.320 --> 1:38:04.200 get a record deal? 1:38:06.400 --> 1:38:09.240 So I moved to London. I did not want to 1:38:09.240 --> 1:38:11.640 move to London until I had a deal because I 1:38:11.720 --> 1:38:14.160 knew that being in London with no money was going 1:38:14.240 --> 1:38:17.519 to be grim. So I would just get myself down 1:38:17.560 --> 1:38:20.639 to London and I was I had a friend who 1:38:20.680 --> 1:38:23.840 worked in film and he would let me crash in 1:38:23.840 --> 1:38:27.879 his living room. But I felt bad because his roommates 1:38:27.920 --> 1:38:29.519 had proper jobs that they had to get up for 1:38:29.560 --> 1:38:32.280 in the morning. So I would pull the couch two 1:38:32.360 --> 1:38:34.479 feet out from the wall and I would sleep behind 1:38:34.520 --> 1:38:40.160 the couch. And so yeah, there was many nights that 1:38:40.200 --> 1:38:44.360 I would sleep behind behind Tim's couch and it was 1:38:44.439 --> 1:38:49.640 great times. You know, I have very very I have 1:38:49.840 --> 1:38:52.360 very sweet memories of that time. It was it was 1:38:52.439 --> 1:38:55.400 an adventure and I would and I made friends with 1:38:55.439 --> 1:38:57.519 the guys who ran a place called the Kashmere Club, 1:38:58.040 --> 1:39:02.960 this guy called Tony Moore, and it was a really revolutionary, 1:39:04.040 --> 1:39:08.720 revolutionary little open mic night in a basement in Marylebone 1:39:08.840 --> 1:39:11.719 in London, and a lot of A and R guys 1:39:11.720 --> 1:39:14.680 would come to that and you didn't pay. It was 1:39:14.720 --> 1:39:17.479 free to get in, but you had to shop up. 1:39:17.760 --> 1:39:23.240 You were not allowed to talk during performances. And ultimately 1:39:23.479 --> 1:39:24.799 that's where I got signed. 1:39:25.600 --> 1:39:28.280 Okay you mentioned earlier. 1:39:28.120 --> 1:39:29.880 But I should I should, but but that was my 1:39:29.960 --> 1:39:34.240 record deal, my publishing deal. I was making phone calls 1:39:34.439 --> 1:39:37.519 trying to meet people in publishing and I actually got 1:39:37.520 --> 1:39:41.839 offered a really tiny kind of like ten grand publishing 1:39:41.880 --> 1:39:45.519 deal and that ended up leading to me working with 1:39:45.600 --> 1:39:48.240 a manager. And it was a guy who'd been at 1:39:48.280 --> 1:39:53.000 a label on the record label side, and he persuaded 1:39:53.000 --> 1:39:56.559 me to kind of start working together, and he actually 1:39:56.600 --> 1:40:00.800 managed to get like Sony Warner and I think Chrysalis 1:40:01.320 --> 1:40:04.080 bidding for my publishing and I ended up with a 1:40:04.680 --> 1:40:05.120 good deal. 1:40:05.479 --> 1:40:08.920 Okay, managers are a world done to itself. How long 1:40:08.960 --> 1:40:11.639 did you work with that guy and what has been 1:40:11.640 --> 1:40:13.800 your experience with managers? 1:40:15.120 --> 1:40:17.320 I worked His name was Simon Banks. I worked with 1:40:17.400 --> 1:40:26.680 him for ten ten years. I think he hadn't had 1:40:26.720 --> 1:40:28.560 a lot of management experience before. He was na in 1:40:28.600 --> 1:40:35.520 our guy, and you know, we had a just stellar 1:40:36.520 --> 1:40:41.280 first record. It was just an unbelievable success, like way way, 1:40:41.360 --> 1:40:45.679 way beyond anything we would imagine, like selling five million 1:40:45.680 --> 1:40:47.840 copies of this record. It was just you know, it 1:40:47.880 --> 1:40:51.920 was a twenty three grand record deal. It was a 1:40:52.240 --> 1:40:55.479 I think like a I think it was something It 1:40:55.520 --> 1:40:57.560 was like a twenty grand budget for the record. It 1:40:57.600 --> 1:41:02.800 was all these relatively small at that time. You know, 1:41:02.880 --> 1:41:05.680 people were spending a lot of money on stuff and 1:41:08.920 --> 1:41:15.360 it was pretty good. It was he had the substance 1:41:15.400 --> 1:41:21.080 abuse problem instead of me, so that was difficult. And 1:41:21.920 --> 1:41:24.719 what I found as time was going on, and especially 1:41:24.760 --> 1:41:28.719 as we got into album two was he was really 1:41:28.760 --> 1:41:30.960 good at answering the phone, but not very good at 1:41:31.600 --> 1:41:34.320 making the phone calls to make things happen, and of course, 1:41:34.439 --> 1:41:39.760 inevitably the phone stops ringing as much. And then the 1:41:40.479 --> 1:41:43.040 thing that was really difficult was that I cracked America, 1:41:43.160 --> 1:41:48.479 which was just stratospherically difficult and just fantastic that I 1:41:48.520 --> 1:41:52.200 managed to do it. And he would have a different opinion, 1:41:52.240 --> 1:41:57.400 but in my opinion, he did not manage that success 1:41:58.040 --> 1:42:00.960 to the point where I then had the career in 1:42:01.000 --> 1:42:06.240 America that I could have had. I think we neglected 1:42:06.280 --> 1:42:08.960 the American market too much, and you know, I was 1:42:08.960 --> 1:42:12.640 playing sheds to four or five six thousand people and 1:42:12.720 --> 1:42:15.720 I can't do that now. And not to say that 1:42:15.920 --> 1:42:19.479 I'm entitled to that, but there was there was a 1:42:19.520 --> 1:42:22.639 business plan, path, a strategy that we could have adopted 1:42:22.680 --> 1:42:24.719 that would have made that more likely, and I'm annoyed 1:42:24.760 --> 1:42:28.880 that we didn't do that, so we stopped working together. 1:42:29.000 --> 1:42:31.160 He had this Sunset deal where I'm paying you know, 1:42:31.680 --> 1:42:33.920 fucking stupid amounts of money for ten years, which was 1:42:34.120 --> 1:42:37.840 very painful, and we're not in touch anymore. So that's 1:42:37.840 --> 1:42:38.680 where it's ended up. 1:42:38.840 --> 1:42:42.439 So since him how many managers have you had, if 1:42:42.479 --> 1:42:43.320 any managers? 1:42:43.760 --> 1:42:46.679 I had an American manager for a short period of time, 1:42:46.720 --> 1:42:50.080 which was basically like a second divorce. It was it 1:42:50.160 --> 1:42:56.400 wasn't very disappointing, and I then had a friend of 1:42:56.439 --> 1:42:59.600 mine from London step in. He was in film, but 1:42:59.680 --> 1:43:02.000 he was just a good friend and he said, look, 1:43:02.160 --> 1:43:05.519 I feel like you're not getting you feel like you 1:43:05.520 --> 1:43:09.120 should be should be celebrated more than you are. Your 1:43:09.240 --> 1:43:11.280 career should be going better. And he was just he 1:43:11.680 --> 1:43:14.519 knew that I had the capacity to do something positive 1:43:14.520 --> 1:43:16.599 in the world and wanted to help me do that. 1:43:16.720 --> 1:43:21.000 And he's been He's been incredible. For the last ten years, 1:43:21.640 --> 1:43:26.760 my friend Alex has been managing me, and to his 1:43:26.760 --> 1:43:31.880 own detriment, I think it's I'm excited about a new 1:43:31.920 --> 1:43:35.880 situation on the new horizon where I can't talk about 1:43:35.920 --> 1:43:38.639 it yet, but it's all good. And so the last 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:42.519 ten years has been really I've been very grateful watching 1:43:42.600 --> 1:43:45.559 someone who really cared and put me, put my best 1:43:45.600 --> 1:43:49.160 interests first, and it's made a huge difference. And I 1:43:49.240 --> 1:43:55.160 feel that where I am now is vastly different. I 1:43:55.160 --> 1:43:57.120 don't know if I'd still be doing what I'm doing 1:43:57.479 --> 1:44:00.240 if it hadn't been for him coming in and helping me. 1:44:08.479 --> 1:44:13.960 Okay, going back, how do you actually get the initial 1:44:14.040 --> 1:44:14.639 record deal? 1:44:15.760 --> 1:44:17.559 I mean, everyone's going to have a different answers. There, 1:44:17.720 --> 1:44:21.920 I'm again, there's no there's no rule books. I'm telling 1:44:21.960 --> 1:44:27.960 you my experience. I had my publishing deal, I did 1:44:28.000 --> 1:44:30.040 not get my I was not able to get a 1:44:30.040 --> 1:44:33.960 record deal for two years of trying. I was trying, 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:39.559 no one was interested. I remember going into a record 1:44:39.600 --> 1:44:43.240 company of which I will not name, and playing for 1:44:43.360 --> 1:44:45.680 him and he said, well, the thing is we have 1:44:45.800 --> 1:44:51.599 a girl who plays something. I was like, really, how 1:44:51.640 --> 1:44:55.760 many guys have you got that play something? But it 1:44:55.800 --> 1:44:59.240 was it was the Nora Jones effect, Like Nora's success 1:44:59.320 --> 1:45:03.320 had really blown the doors off in terms of female 1:45:03.360 --> 1:45:06.880 singer songwriters who played an instrument. She paved the way 1:45:06.920 --> 1:45:11.120 for all of us, really and got the record companies 1:45:11.240 --> 1:45:17.120 excited about it. But unfortunately most of them had their 1:45:17.160 --> 1:45:21.120 girl who plays something, and it was very, very difficult 1:45:21.120 --> 1:45:23.320 to get signed. And also I was older. That was 1:45:23.400 --> 1:45:27.720 probably putting people off without them saying it. And this 1:45:27.880 --> 1:45:31.439 one record company who saw me at the Cashmere Club 1:45:31.880 --> 1:45:38.040 at that under that basement open mic, they were an 1:45:38.160 --> 1:45:45.040 underground Asian dance label. The owner had been a Ugandan 1:45:45.160 --> 1:45:49.880 Asian dance DJ. They had so solid crew who was 1:45:49.960 --> 1:45:54.400 like an urban RAF act. They offered me a five 1:45:54.479 --> 1:45:59.000 album deal for like twenty three grand and I was like, 1:45:59.160 --> 1:46:04.760 this seems like a completely preposterous partnership, Like why would 1:46:04.800 --> 1:46:07.519 they even want me? They just really liked my stuff. 1:46:08.160 --> 1:46:11.599 And Shabs the head of that label, Absolute Maverick, He 1:46:11.640 --> 1:46:14.200 was just like, we just signed things we like, doesn't 1:46:14.200 --> 1:46:17.880 matter what it is, and they said, and I was 1:46:17.960 --> 1:46:20.120 very nervous about it. I was just like, it doesn't 1:46:20.120 --> 1:46:22.320 feel like the right fit. It's not a lot of money. 1:46:23.120 --> 1:46:23.599 Really. 1:46:23.760 --> 1:46:28.280 They were a subsidiary of Virgin at the time. They 1:46:28.280 --> 1:46:31.479 were called Relentless or its Outcast Records. It was Relentless 1:46:31.479 --> 1:46:34.920 and Outcast with their two imprints. And they said, well, 1:46:34.960 --> 1:46:37.840 here's the thing. We have this other band that's instrumental 1:46:37.920 --> 1:46:41.240 and they need a top line writer and a singer 1:46:41.479 --> 1:46:43.000 to do a few singles so that we can get 1:46:43.040 --> 1:46:45.599 them on radio. So why don't you work with them 1:46:46.120 --> 1:46:48.000 and then go on tour with them and you can 1:46:48.040 --> 1:46:50.960 get to know us. And I was like, that sounds awesome. 1:46:51.000 --> 1:46:53.479 Who are they? And he says there were ten piece 1:46:53.680 --> 1:47:00.040 Klesmer Jewish hip hop band, and I'm like, who the 1:47:00.080 --> 1:47:02.800 fuck are you people? This is so weird. And I 1:47:02.840 --> 1:47:05.680 was like, I'm one hundred percent down, I'm in. That 1:47:05.800 --> 1:47:11.240 sounds amazing. And they were called oiv a Voi. So 1:47:11.320 --> 1:47:14.519 I go on tour with oiv Avoi and halfway through 1:47:14.520 --> 1:47:17.120 the tour, the band say to me, Katie would really 1:47:17.200 --> 1:47:21.519 like to do a song in Sephardic Jewish Spanish and 1:47:21.600 --> 1:47:25.080 call it Ladino songs. Soldino is this Sardi Jewish language? 1:47:25.400 --> 1:47:27.160 And I was like, great, good luck with that. I 1:47:27.160 --> 1:47:30.240 don't fucking speak that, like what And they said, don't worry, 1:47:30.280 --> 1:47:33.360 you just learn it phonetically. It'll be great. And it 1:47:33.479 --> 1:47:36.400 was just it was so much fun. We just traveled 1:47:36.439 --> 1:47:38.639 all over the place. I got to know the record label. 1:47:39.479 --> 1:47:43.840 I trusted that they really were into just supporting music 1:47:43.880 --> 1:47:45.960 they liked and they weren't trying to change it into 1:47:45.960 --> 1:47:48.760 other stuff. And so I signed the deal. 1:47:49.680 --> 1:47:53.439 Okay, you signed the deal. There's X amount to make 1:47:53.479 --> 1:47:58.040 the record. How do you find a producer? What's the 1:47:58.080 --> 1:47:59.960 experience of actually making the record? 1:48:00.200 --> 1:48:04.120 Yeah, well it was really interesting because they didn't have 1:48:04.160 --> 1:48:09.040 a lot of budget, and I knew nothing about producers. 1:48:09.040 --> 1:48:12.240 I'd basically not really been in music in studios at 1:48:12.240 --> 1:48:15.040 this point. You know, my friend Bob who ran the 1:48:15.080 --> 1:48:18.040 studio in Edinburgh. I'd gone in there and done some recording, 1:48:18.080 --> 1:48:20.320 but I was very inexperienced, and all the stuff that 1:48:20.320 --> 1:48:22.800 i'd done before that was just eight tracks, you know, 1:48:23.160 --> 1:48:26.439 in a cottage on the edge, just and Andrew's, and 1:48:26.520 --> 1:48:32.240 so I knew nothing about producing or mixing. And it 1:48:32.280 --> 1:48:35.160 was actually my A and R guy, Martin Morales, who said, 1:48:35.280 --> 1:48:36.960 I think you should have a look at this guy, 1:48:37.000 --> 1:48:40.599 Steve Osborne. He's really interesting. He's a rock producer. He'd 1:48:40.600 --> 1:48:44.360 worked with Doves, You two and Placebo were like his 1:48:44.479 --> 1:48:48.920 big artist acts. And I was just like, whoa, this 1:48:48.960 --> 1:48:51.160 is not what I was expecting you to say, and 1:48:51.200 --> 1:48:54.360 this is delighting me that you are coming to me 1:48:54.640 --> 1:48:59.800 with a very non female artists suggestion, because that was 1:48:59.840 --> 1:49:01.800 my worry, right was that they were just kind of 1:49:01.880 --> 1:49:05.840 kind of sweet in the dish, and I was like, 1:49:05.920 --> 1:49:10.280 this is this is really a good suggestion. So I 1:49:10.400 --> 1:49:12.759 went to meet with him. He worked out of Real World, 1:49:12.760 --> 1:49:16.759 out of Peter Gabriel's place in Bath and I really 1:49:16.880 --> 1:49:20.439 really liked him. He was cool. He was weird. He 1:49:20.479 --> 1:49:25.879 looked like a vampire. He was clearly into keeping things 1:49:26.280 --> 1:49:32.320 very gritty, which was really important to me. But we 1:49:32.400 --> 1:49:34.680 couldn't afford to do the record at real world. So 1:49:34.760 --> 1:49:37.519 he found the studio in the middle of nowhere in 1:49:37.600 --> 1:49:40.200 Bradford upon Avon, which is just outside Bath. And it 1:49:40.240 --> 1:49:43.320 was this roadie who'd lost the use of his legs 1:49:43.320 --> 1:49:46.680 in an accident on tour, lived with his crazy Italian 1:49:46.720 --> 1:49:50.960 mother and had put a knave desk in his house 1:49:51.479 --> 1:49:55.360 with his mom, and like the vocal booth, was a 1:49:55.520 --> 1:49:59.240 disability ramp that you could either like sing going uphill 1:49:59.320 --> 1:50:04.439 or downhill, and it was it was very basic, like 1:50:04.520 --> 1:50:08.880 we had to we had to gaff tape comforters on 1:50:08.920 --> 1:50:12.120 the wall for when we needed to change the sound. 1:50:12.360 --> 1:50:18.200 And Steve was literally the driver the whole Me and 1:50:18.240 --> 1:50:20.840 the musicians stayed at his house. We stayed in his kids' 1:50:20.880 --> 1:50:24.880 bunk beds. His wife would cook us food like it 1:50:24.960 --> 1:50:27.479 was a labor of love for him. It was. It 1:50:27.520 --> 1:50:30.360 was definitely not coming from a place of him thinking 1:50:30.400 --> 1:50:31.920 he was going to make a bunch of money off this. 1:50:32.439 --> 1:50:34.120 He loved the music and he wanted to do it, 1:50:34.160 --> 1:50:38.200 and he just took on all the roles and we 1:50:38.240 --> 1:50:42.200 made the record. I loved it. It was very very 1:50:42.200 --> 1:50:48.920 stripped back, and I was And then we proceeded to 1:50:48.960 --> 1:50:53.599 send the masters to the label and I was not 1:50:53.840 --> 1:50:57.120 invited to the mix. I wasn't even told the mix 1:50:57.200 --> 1:51:00.479 was happening. The mix it was a guy I've still 1:51:00.479 --> 1:51:04.240 never met, and it just got sent away and it 1:51:04.280 --> 1:51:07.400 came back and I just felt like someone had taken 1:51:07.439 --> 1:51:11.599 a hot iron to the excitement of what we'd made, 1:51:11.920 --> 1:51:16.040 and I couldn't stand it. And it was just like 1:51:16.560 --> 1:51:21.400 it just felt so saccering like what they'd done. And 1:51:21.439 --> 1:51:24.080 when I listened to the record now, I'm like, Jesus 1:51:24.160 --> 1:51:27.840 Christ is completely stripped back and raw, and it's still 1:51:27.880 --> 1:51:30.760 got all of that qualities, but it was just it 1:51:30.840 --> 1:51:34.280 was more produced. I'd not heard anything produced of mine, 1:51:34.400 --> 1:51:37.320 and so fuck knows what the we've got the originals? 1:51:37.360 --> 1:51:38.880 We should I need to dig them out and have 1:51:38.880 --> 1:51:41.000 a listen to them because they must be so raw. 1:51:43.080 --> 1:51:45.720 But it was very very hard for me, and I 1:51:45.800 --> 1:51:50.760 felt quite betrayed by the label that they didn't include me. 1:51:51.280 --> 1:51:54.400 I didn't know that the artist wouldn't be included in 1:51:54.439 --> 1:51:56.720 the mixing process. And now of course, it's just like 1:51:56.840 --> 1:52:01.240 such an intrinsic part of making a record, and like 1:52:01.360 --> 1:52:04.320 my label boss got some guitarist in to like re 1:52:04.320 --> 1:52:07.680 record my parts without telling me, and it was just 1:52:07.880 --> 1:52:10.160 it was really he was trying to do the right thing. 1:52:10.240 --> 1:52:14.600 I believe that, but it was very hurtful and so 1:52:14.720 --> 1:52:17.720 it was very fractious. And then I had to go 1:52:17.800 --> 1:52:20.599 out and promote this record that I thought sounded terrible. 1:52:21.080 --> 1:52:23.240 It was, but I had to keep my I had 1:52:23.240 --> 1:52:25.880 to bite my tongue. It was very difficult because the 1:52:25.960 --> 1:52:28.960 record was just doing so well. There's no point in 1:52:29.040 --> 1:52:32.120 me then going out and saying I didn't like it. 1:52:32.120 --> 1:52:35.000 It just felt like that was that was going to be, 1:52:36.000 --> 1:52:38.840 you know, an insult to fans who liked it. 1:52:40.520 --> 1:52:44.840 How fast after it was released did it become successful? 1:52:45.280 --> 1:52:47.400 And if you ever come to accept her and you 1:52:47.479 --> 1:52:50.640 still think it's too flattened with an iron. 1:52:51.680 --> 1:52:53.720 Oh no, I mean to answer the latter question, I 1:52:53.760 --> 1:52:56.640 have one hundred percent embraced how it sounds, and I 1:52:56.680 --> 1:52:58.760 love how it sounds, and I can hear it and 1:52:58.800 --> 1:53:01.360 I can love every every part of it. Now, it 1:53:02.600 --> 1:53:05.160 was more I think an emotional reaction at the time 1:53:05.520 --> 1:53:08.960 to being you know, I was so worried about signing 1:53:09.000 --> 1:53:12.599 my soul away to the Devil with a record company that, 1:53:13.240 --> 1:53:16.120 and it just felt like those fears came true when 1:53:16.160 --> 1:53:19.400 that was happening. And so it was much more an 1:53:19.439 --> 1:53:23.960 emotional relationship with what had happened than it was the 1:53:24.040 --> 1:53:27.800 actual sound of the record. And you know, part I'm conflicted, 1:53:27.880 --> 1:53:30.479 I'm also like, well, whatever they did, it made itself 1:53:30.600 --> 1:53:34.479 five million copies, and it probably wouldn't have done that 1:53:34.880 --> 1:53:37.799 if they hadn't made it sound the way it sounded. 1:53:38.720 --> 1:53:41.759 And what was the first question? 1:53:42.120 --> 1:53:44.520 Was it successful from its release? 1:53:44.960 --> 1:53:48.840 It wasn't fast. It wasn't fast. It was we it 1:53:48.880 --> 1:53:51.080 was a soft release. We kind of did an EP. 1:53:51.479 --> 1:53:54.040 It was rolling along. I think it went in at 1:53:54.080 --> 1:54:03.600 number seventy three, but it was a real slow moving juggernault. 1:54:03.840 --> 1:54:07.240 It was word of mouth. It was that beautiful magical 1:54:08.040 --> 1:54:11.920 thing called word of mouth, where it was back. People 1:54:11.960 --> 1:54:14.800 were still buying records, and they were sharing it and 1:54:14.960 --> 1:54:17.640 they were giving it to friends, and it was just 1:54:17.800 --> 1:54:22.599 building slowly, slowly, slowly. And then I got Jules Holland 1:54:23.720 --> 1:54:24.719 and then everything changed. 1:54:24.800 --> 1:54:28.040 Okay, tell me the experience of the second record, how 1:54:28.080 --> 1:54:31.040 this gigantic success. You say the label wants more of 1:54:31.080 --> 1:54:33.760 what you did, You want to lean into the rock star. 1:54:34.160 --> 1:54:35.800 What was that experience? Like? 1:54:37.400 --> 1:54:41.120 The second record was fucking hideous. It was such a 1:54:41.320 --> 1:54:48.000 hideous experience. I hated it. And this was where the 1:54:48.080 --> 1:54:52.840 mistake was made with America, because I tod the Telescope 1:54:52.840 --> 1:54:54.840 came out in two thousand and four in the UK, 1:54:55.080 --> 1:54:58.880 and then it was released a year later in America 1:54:59.440 --> 1:55:03.320 and it off and I should have just not done 1:55:03.360 --> 1:55:08.360 a second record until I'd really got my relationship with 1:55:08.400 --> 1:55:16.040 America in a deeper place. But in the UK, I 1:55:16.200 --> 1:55:18.880 was being told by my manager, you have to have 1:55:18.920 --> 1:55:22.440 a second record out this quarter although because it's going 1:55:22.520 --> 1:55:27.240 to affect Sony Publishing's share price. And I was just like, 1:55:27.360 --> 1:55:29.600 what the fuck has that got to do with me? 1:55:30.640 --> 1:55:34.200 And why would you want a record that's not ready? 1:55:34.680 --> 1:55:39.840 And I was exhausted. I was just the redbear. I 1:55:39.960 --> 1:55:45.040 was hanging on by a wire because I'd been touring 1:55:45.440 --> 1:55:50.800 eighteen months straight and partying and trying to keep my 1:55:51.560 --> 1:55:55.480 blog together, you know. And what I should have done 1:55:56.080 --> 1:56:03.120 is taken a month off, done a month of writing, 1:56:05.400 --> 1:56:08.960 but it just wasn't allowed. I was I was put 1:56:08.960 --> 1:56:11.800 in the studio. And the other massive mistake was I 1:56:11.840 --> 1:56:15.839 was put in Rockfield, which of course is a legendary studio, 1:56:19.080 --> 1:56:23.920 but I very quickly realized I don't really love big 1:56:24.000 --> 1:56:28.160 fancy studios. Love the I love the lore. I'd love 1:56:28.200 --> 1:56:30.520 to like record a song in there, but when it 1:56:30.560 --> 1:56:32.960 comes to actually making a record, I'd much prefer to 1:56:33.000 --> 1:56:40.160 be I suit a much more low fi, limited space. 1:56:43.160 --> 1:56:46.040 It's not helpful for me for someone to say, this 1:56:46.160 --> 1:56:49.760 is the piano that Pretty Mercury recorded Bohemian Rhapsody on. 1:56:50.240 --> 1:56:52.480 I'm like, well, that's great. I'm not going to do 1:56:52.520 --> 1:56:55.760 anything nearly as good as that on this piano. Let's 1:56:55.760 --> 1:56:58.160 make a record, you know, well's Zeppelin. We're here at 1:56:58.240 --> 1:57:01.400 great never going to be that good. 1:57:01.600 --> 1:57:06.680 Okay, So A, the record's done, how do you feel 1:57:06.680 --> 1:57:10.400 about the record? B The record is not commercially as successful. 1:57:10.400 --> 1:57:11.480 How do you feel about that? 1:57:13.640 --> 1:57:18.280 So the label were very adamant that I worked with 1:57:18.320 --> 1:57:22.120 Steve again because they wanted to repeat success. Steve was 1:57:22.160 --> 1:57:26.800 not in a good place personally. He had his own 1:57:26.840 --> 1:57:32.040 issues going on. I was desperate to make a rock 1:57:32.120 --> 1:57:34.920 record because I had gone from playing in pubs and 1:57:35.000 --> 1:57:40.400 busking to playing for four thousand people and all of 1:57:40.400 --> 1:57:45.880 this new Sonic universe was now available to me. I 1:57:46.040 --> 1:57:49.760 was playing through huge pas, I was playing electric guitar. 1:57:49.920 --> 1:57:53.120 It was my Bob Dylan moment where I was just like, 1:57:53.240 --> 1:57:58.080 I could do really different shit on this record, and 1:57:58.160 --> 1:58:00.760 I want to play songs I want to make. I 1:58:00.840 --> 1:58:04.800 want to have a wall of noise that is exciting, 1:58:04.920 --> 1:58:08.040 you know. I was seeing other people's gigs and I 1:58:08.080 --> 1:58:11.440 was like, I want to have that experience of being 1:58:11.480 --> 1:58:15.240 in a rock band and being a rock singer, and 1:58:15.280 --> 1:58:18.520 no one else wanted that. Everybody wanted me to do 1:58:18.560 --> 1:58:22.000 the same thing again. And I wanted to record the 1:58:22.160 --> 1:58:26.520 record live. I wanted I knew that I performed better 1:58:26.560 --> 1:58:29.600 when I live. I didn't want to track it, and 1:58:30.480 --> 1:58:34.880 just utter refusal from everybody. Your band isn't good enough, 1:58:34.920 --> 1:58:36.600 it's going to take too long, it's not going to 1:58:36.640 --> 1:58:39.960 be good. So we could not record that record live. 1:58:40.040 --> 1:58:42.200 And so that record, of all my records is the 1:58:42.200 --> 1:58:46.120 one that I would love to re record because it 1:58:46.120 --> 1:58:48.600 should have been played live. It should have been recorded 1:58:48.600 --> 1:58:53.160 as live music, and it just lacks it lacks excitement, 1:58:53.200 --> 1:58:57.280 and it lacks the energy that those songs should have 1:58:57.280 --> 1:58:59.240 because I think the songs are good on that record, 1:59:00.760 --> 1:59:02.560 and some of it worked, the slower, the sort of 1:59:02.600 --> 1:59:05.840 softer Sung's work. And not to not to shit on 1:59:05.880 --> 1:59:07.880 the record, because I still think it's good. I'm still 1:59:07.920 --> 1:59:10.560 proud of it, but it could have been a lot 1:59:10.600 --> 1:59:16.640 more exciting than it was. At that time. Everybody was 1:59:16.680 --> 1:59:19.680 losing their job. No one at my record label knew 1:59:19.720 --> 1:59:22.080 if they were going to be working there the next day. 1:59:22.440 --> 1:59:27.080 Internet had hit hard. All the people I saw in 1:59:27.160 --> 1:59:31.280 positions of authority at record labels had no fucking clue 1:59:32.040 --> 1:59:34.040 that the Internet was going to do what it did, 1:59:34.400 --> 1:59:38.320 and they were so slow, like no one was No 1:59:38.400 --> 1:59:41.920 one was moving as if it was a you know, 1:59:41.920 --> 1:59:44.880 it should have been the alarms should have been going off, 1:59:46.080 --> 1:59:49.720 and they weren't. They just everyone was just carrying on 1:59:49.840 --> 1:59:52.480 as if things were going to stay the same. And 1:59:54.360 --> 1:59:58.960 that record really suffered, I think because of that, and 1:59:59.000 --> 2:00:02.800 my third record he suffered because there wasn't a new 2:00:02.880 --> 2:00:07.440 approach to sharing the music and how it was marketed 2:00:07.480 --> 2:00:10.000 and how it was sold. It was just they were 2:00:10.040 --> 2:00:11.880 just it was all the same as it had been 2:00:11.920 --> 2:00:12.840 in two thousand and. 2:00:12.720 --> 2:00:15.800 Four, just starting on an artistic level. Were you happy 2:00:15.840 --> 2:00:16.839 with the third record. 2:00:18.680 --> 2:00:21.480 I loved the third record. Yeah, the third record was 2:00:21.520 --> 2:00:25.440 my middle finger to the label, going, you're not going 2:00:25.520 --> 2:00:27.280 to tell me what to do. So I decided I 2:00:27.360 --> 2:00:30.840 made I wanted to make an acoustic techno record and 2:00:30.880 --> 2:00:34.840 went to Berlin and made a record in Hansa and 2:00:34.880 --> 2:00:38.280 it's I think that record is probably very It's a 2:00:38.280 --> 2:00:42.400 little overproduced. There's too much going on. It was with 2:00:42.800 --> 2:00:45.760 Jim Abbys. We had such a good time and I 2:00:45.800 --> 2:00:49.160 don't regret it at all. I love that record. Makes 2:00:49.200 --> 2:00:51.360 me feel really good because I just did what the 2:00:51.360 --> 2:00:52.040 fuck I wanted. 2:00:52.200 --> 2:00:54.880 Okay, you put out the first record. Of course, I 2:00:54.920 --> 2:00:58.320 have an American perspective. You put out your first record. 2:00:58.720 --> 2:01:02.560 All of the old world than old mechanism still exists, 2:01:03.000 --> 2:01:05.600 even though they were on their last gasp, whether people 2:01:05.680 --> 2:01:06.160 know it or not. 2:01:06.880 --> 2:01:08.960 Oh, it is the tiger. I call it the tiger's tail. 2:01:09.120 --> 2:01:10.960 I was so lucky to grab the tail. 2:01:11.280 --> 2:01:15.880 So you have that tail, and you have you know, 2:01:16.320 --> 2:01:22.240 MTV still meant something, you have videos, etc. One So 2:01:23.440 --> 2:01:26.320 you realize the world was changing, the people you were 2:01:26.320 --> 2:01:31.240 working with did not. Where does that leave you today, 2:01:31.640 --> 2:01:35.200 because the landscape has completely changed from when you. 2:01:35.280 --> 2:01:48.520 Broke Yeah, absolutely I'm very lucky because from a timing 2:01:48.560 --> 2:01:52.720 point of view, I think that my fans certainly and 2:01:52.760 --> 2:01:58.200 I think the wider general public do not necessarily view 2:01:58.280 --> 2:02:01.560 me as a heritage act. I'm not sort of seen 2:02:01.600 --> 2:02:03.880 as going out and just you know, dining out on 2:02:03.960 --> 2:02:07.600 these old hits, while of course I play them. I've 2:02:07.720 --> 2:02:11.760 consistently put out records since then and worked them hard, 2:02:13.000 --> 2:02:17.720 so I've managed to I think, keep irrelevance as a 2:02:17.840 --> 2:02:25.400 contemporary musician, which has been healthy. It's been good, but 2:02:26.320 --> 2:02:30.920 I have the huge benefit of also being viewed as 2:02:30.960 --> 2:02:34.920 an old school musician that's sold records, and my fan 2:02:35.000 --> 2:02:38.680 base is very much the foundation of that fan base 2:02:38.760 --> 2:02:43.040 is people who bought records and still love albums and 2:02:43.080 --> 2:02:45.440 still want to buy vinyl. I mean there's tons of 2:02:45.520 --> 2:02:47.839 you know, young kids now who want to buy vinyl, 2:02:47.920 --> 2:02:56.360 which is fantastic, but it's Jesus Christ. I mean, streaming 2:02:56.920 --> 2:03:02.920 is just so ruinous for musicians. It's just so difficult. 2:03:03.160 --> 2:03:07.720 I don't know how new artists even manage with that 2:03:07.840 --> 2:03:11.120 being their main source of how they share what they make. 2:03:14.240 --> 2:03:16.720 And so it's really been. 2:03:19.640 --> 2:03:24.120 You know, my boat that I. 2:03:25.800 --> 2:03:31.320 Still say is live, and I think honing a very 2:03:31.440 --> 2:03:34.760 unique live show where there's not a lot of people 2:03:34.800 --> 2:03:38.000 who perform solo and can kind of sound like a band. 2:03:38.080 --> 2:03:42.320 So the loop pedal stuff has been a great gift 2:03:42.360 --> 2:03:44.440 in my life. And there was a time where I 2:03:44.480 --> 2:03:46.080 really wanted to get rid of it because it just 2:03:46.080 --> 2:03:47.720 felt like a gimmick and I was just like, oh 2:03:47.760 --> 2:03:50.200 my god, I'm just the loop girl. And then I 2:03:50.960 --> 2:03:53.840 was like, oh my god, I'm the loop girl. That's 2:03:53.920 --> 2:03:58.600 really cool, and it's like really awesome feeling like I've 2:03:58.640 --> 2:04:06.120 pioneered something in music. And so now I'm very grateful 2:04:06.160 --> 2:04:08.560 for it, and I love I love playing solo and 2:04:09.360 --> 2:04:12.280 that that solo show which is now sort of partly 2:04:12.320 --> 2:04:15.560 a storytelling show as well, and it's partly a comedy show. 2:04:15.600 --> 2:04:18.640 I love having a laugh with the audience. But also 2:04:18.680 --> 2:04:22.200 I'm so constantly pushing like what I can do, and 2:04:22.480 --> 2:04:27.600 it's all about dynamism within a solo show, like how 2:04:27.600 --> 2:04:30.680 many different sounds can I present you as one person? 2:04:30.920 --> 2:04:33.800 And people really love it. People really love seeing one 2:04:33.840 --> 2:04:38.520 person creating what sounds like a band. And I think 2:04:38.600 --> 2:04:43.160 that for me now, you know, our dream is of 2:04:43.520 --> 2:04:48.000 our dream as musicians is to have a signature sound 2:04:48.400 --> 2:04:51.640 that you. Within the first eight bars of someone hearing something, 2:04:51.640 --> 2:04:54.480 they're like, oh, that's Katie tells. Though, you know what 2:04:54.520 --> 2:04:59.360 a fucking amazing achievement that is that you've got your sound, 2:04:59.800 --> 2:05:02.520 but also that you've got this You've just got your 2:05:02.560 --> 2:05:07.760 own little corner of the music universe that feels like yours, 2:05:07.840 --> 2:05:11.720 and it feels unique, and it feels original, and it 2:05:11.720 --> 2:05:15.160 feels like there's enough space that you can keep expanding 2:05:15.200 --> 2:05:19.840 and keep changing and keep growing all the time into 2:05:19.880 --> 2:05:25.480 something that feels fresh, you know, and that you've got 2:05:25.560 --> 2:05:30.160 your space to say what you want to say. And 2:05:30.200 --> 2:05:34.120 I think that that that's where I am now, that 2:05:34.200 --> 2:05:37.960 I just I have my I feel like I have 2:05:38.120 --> 2:05:41.840 my space and it's me and it's got my name 2:05:41.880 --> 2:05:42.720 on it and it's. 2:05:44.640 --> 2:05:45.280 And I can. 2:05:47.760 --> 2:05:49.040 Thrive in there. 2:05:56.720 --> 2:05:59.320 That's a very accurate assessment of the landscape. A lot 2:05:59.320 --> 2:06:01.080 of people been in the business as long as you 2:06:01.120 --> 2:06:04.800 have do not have that perspective. But let's put that 2:06:04.920 --> 2:06:07.000 visa VI. The old game. The old game is you 2:06:07.080 --> 2:06:11.160 make a record, you're hoping for a single to catch fire. 2:06:11.480 --> 2:06:14.240 And of course then it was terrestrial radio. Terrestrial radio 2:06:14.440 --> 2:06:17.440 is you know, it's exists, but it doesn't have the 2:06:17.440 --> 2:06:22.360 power it once did. So I saw you perform in 2:06:22.400 --> 2:06:26.600 the spring, and you know, for those who've never seen 2:06:26.640 --> 2:06:29.200 you see you once, they're not gonna you're never gonna 2:06:29.240 --> 2:06:34.520 forget it. Yeah, experience, and it's far more than someone 2:06:34.600 --> 2:06:38.720 standing near performing numbers. As you say, there's comedy, there's 2:06:38.720 --> 2:06:39.280 a person out. 2:06:39.320 --> 2:06:42.680 I mean, it's like, wow, oh, thank you, Bob. I 2:06:42.720 --> 2:06:45.760 appreciate that you've seen a lot of gigs. I appreciate 2:06:45.880 --> 2:06:46.720 that very much. 2:06:47.200 --> 2:06:50.560 I mean that one hundred percent. But I do have 2:06:50.640 --> 2:06:55.480 a question in your own mind. Is there a belief 2:06:56.120 --> 2:07:00.320 that if enough people see me, they'll spread the world 2:07:00.400 --> 2:07:04.120 and my audience will grow or do you more feel 2:07:04.120 --> 2:07:07.480 like I thank god I have the audience. I do have. 2:07:08.160 --> 2:07:10.480 And then the third question, which relates to the first, 2:07:10.800 --> 2:07:13.280 have you seen any evidence of any growth? 2:07:15.120 --> 2:07:19.160 I have absolutely seen growth. I absolutely believe that if 2:07:19.200 --> 2:07:21.640 I can get in front of people, they will like 2:07:21.760 --> 2:07:24.360 the show, they will enjoy the show, they will be 2:07:24.400 --> 2:07:26.560 moved by the show, and they will tell their friends 2:07:26.560 --> 2:07:29.240 to come next time. I believe that and I've seen 2:07:29.320 --> 2:07:32.839 that for sure. So this is why I now really 2:07:33.040 --> 2:07:38.880 enjoy opening for other people. And I was sort of 2:07:38.880 --> 2:07:40.960 really I was really against it at the beginning of 2:07:40.960 --> 2:07:42.280 my career because I was just like, I don't want 2:07:42.280 --> 2:07:44.280 to play for people who are just buying beer and 2:07:44.320 --> 2:07:46.600 waiting for the next band. I'd prefer you know, I 2:07:46.600 --> 2:07:48.400 don't want to play to a thousand people who waiting 2:07:48.440 --> 2:07:49.880 for someone else. I want to play to one hundred 2:07:49.880 --> 2:07:53.160 people who want to see me. It's misguided. It was 2:07:53.200 --> 2:07:58.640 a misguided idea, that misguided way of thinking, because it's 2:07:59.120 --> 2:08:03.040 extremely great when another artist asks you on tour with 2:08:03.120 --> 2:08:06.920 them for a start, they're giving you the audience they 2:08:06.960 --> 2:08:11.480 have earned over their own decades of work. I mean, 2:08:11.520 --> 2:08:15.000 I recently went out with Roger Daughtry and just had 2:08:16.200 --> 2:08:20.320 the best fucking time, and I'm like, I'm playing for 2:08:20.560 --> 2:08:23.680 who fans? I'm playing for Roger Daultry fans. These are 2:08:23.720 --> 2:08:25.880 people who've seen some of the best gigs that have 2:08:26.040 --> 2:08:31.680 ever been played on stage. They're discerning people, they have 2:08:31.880 --> 2:08:34.880 high expectations of what they're going to see. And I 2:08:34.920 --> 2:08:37.480 said to Roger, you know, you're obviously not going to 2:08:37.560 --> 2:08:42.000 play the entire who back catalog on your tour. Is 2:08:42.040 --> 2:08:45.160 there a song of yours or Who's that I might 2:08:45.240 --> 2:08:48.400 cover that might delight your fans? To hear that they're 2:08:48.400 --> 2:08:51.560 not going to hear in your set, he immediately goes acid, Queen, 2:08:51.760 --> 2:08:55.280 you need to do it. And it was such a 2:08:55.360 --> 2:09:03.840 thrill a learning that znge b playing it for his fans, 2:09:03.920 --> 2:09:06.440 just the being in the moment of being on stage 2:09:06.480 --> 2:09:10.440 before him for his audience thousands and thousands and eight 2:09:10.480 --> 2:09:15.080 thousand people, you know, and nailing it. And I was 2:09:15.200 --> 2:09:18.040 like yes, and them going yes, she did do a 2:09:18.040 --> 2:09:23.720 good job playing on her own. It was super cool. 2:09:23.840 --> 2:09:26.320 And I'm on the on tour at the moment with 2:09:26.360 --> 2:09:29.440 told the whitt Sprocket and I wasn't massively familiar with 2:09:29.520 --> 2:09:32.960 their music, not going up anyway for sure, because it 2:09:33.080 --> 2:09:37.920 wasn't that prevalent in the UK. And man, their fans 2:09:37.960 --> 2:09:40.440 are just amazing. I feel like I'm playing to my 2:09:40.480 --> 2:09:44.560 own people, like they're so open to listening to something 2:09:44.600 --> 2:09:47.200 they haven't heard before, and they're giving me like standing 2:09:47.200 --> 2:09:50.400 evations in the during the show and at the end 2:09:50.440 --> 2:09:53.160 of the show. It just and it really keeps seeing 2:09:53.160 --> 2:09:57.160 people saying I knew that one song, but I never 2:09:57.720 --> 2:10:00.280 never been to her show, didn't or catalog. Now they're 2:10:00.360 --> 2:10:04.360 checking out all the records. It's really cool. So I'm 2:10:04.840 --> 2:10:08.200 having a really good time. I'm really enjoying. I'm really 2:10:08.280 --> 2:10:11.760 enjoying playing, and there's been times where I haven't, so 2:10:11.840 --> 2:10:14.360 I'm really glad that I've come back around to enjoying, 2:10:15.440 --> 2:10:19.120 really being grateful for the job. And I love going 2:10:19.160 --> 2:10:22.760 on tour with people because it's a masterclass. You get 2:10:22.760 --> 2:10:24.920 to watch these other artists and bands. You know I've been. 2:10:25.120 --> 2:10:27.720 I went on tour with Simple Minds and the Pretenders. 2:10:28.080 --> 2:10:32.000 I mean, fucking hell, it's amazing, and it was funny. 2:10:32.000 --> 2:10:33.960 I'll tell you a quick funny story about Chrissy Hines. 2:10:34.000 --> 2:10:36.360 So Christy Hein was just terrifying and she's just like 2:10:36.520 --> 2:10:39.160 my favorite, and you know, I'm such a big fan 2:10:39.280 --> 2:10:42.680 of hers. She's my number one. And I was just 2:10:42.800 --> 2:10:44.760 too much of a fangirl to like be able to 2:10:44.760 --> 2:10:46.520 actually make friends with her, and she was just too 2:10:46.520 --> 2:10:50.800 scary to me. But every night she would call me 2:10:50.840 --> 2:10:53.960 out and she'd say, you better have been here for 2:10:54.040 --> 2:10:56.680 Katie Tunstall because she's still great, and I was like, 2:10:56.800 --> 2:10:59.480 oh my god. And then she'd like dedicate Brass and 2:10:59.520 --> 2:11:02.480 Pocket to me every night. We're just crazy. And at 2:11:02.480 --> 2:11:07.240 the end of the tour she goes, you gotta see Kass. 2:11:07.440 --> 2:11:14.400 She's awesome. She's awesome. She really inspires me, like what like, 2:11:14.440 --> 2:11:17.400 and I'm not really managing to kind of create a 2:11:17.440 --> 2:11:19.640 friendship rapport with her, you know. At the same time, 2:11:19.640 --> 2:11:22.760 it's like, this is insane. And I had to go 2:11:22.800 --> 2:11:25.000 and speak to her afterwards, and I was like, Chrissy, 2:11:25.480 --> 2:11:28.680 this is insane. You're Chrissy hein. I need to know 2:11:28.720 --> 2:11:32.240 what you mean when you say that I inspire you. 2:11:32.480 --> 2:11:36.320 And she goes, I don't know, You're just so fucking friendly. 2:11:40.640 --> 2:11:45.800 She's like, I can never do that, and I was like, 2:11:46.120 --> 2:11:47.040 that's amazing. 2:11:47.920 --> 2:11:48.640 Now I get it. 2:11:49.120 --> 2:11:53.600 Okay, what's your social media online presence? 2:11:56.240 --> 2:11:59.200 I really enjoy social media. You probably don't hear that 2:11:59.280 --> 2:12:03.840 very often. I don't. I just am not interested in this. 2:12:03.840 --> 2:12:06.280 This is what I'm fucking having for breakfast. I just 2:12:06.440 --> 2:12:09.960 I'm not It's just moronic. So I'm not doing that. 2:12:10.520 --> 2:12:15.200 You have TikTok, which is where things blow up these days. 2:12:16.200 --> 2:12:17.040 You have an act. 2:12:17.600 --> 2:12:20.920 I actually, yeah, I'm going to be really honest with you. 2:12:21.120 --> 2:12:26.040 I don't have TikTok, so I have Instagram and x 2:12:26.120 --> 2:12:29.440 but what I'm what my content gets put onto TikTok 2:12:29.520 --> 2:12:29.800 for me. 2:12:29.960 --> 2:12:35.240 Well, you have the type of act that could translate 2:12:35.640 --> 2:12:41.600 on TikTok and if you made stuff specifically for TikTok yourself, 2:12:43.680 --> 2:12:46.520 because TikTok to algorithm is are you are you? 2:12:46.600 --> 2:12:49.000 Are you giving me advice on how to expand my career? 2:12:49.040 --> 2:12:52.520 Bob, I'll give you a little advice. I'll give you 2:12:52.600 --> 2:13:01.400 the other advice. Okay. Management is about relationships, and certainly 2:13:01.440 --> 2:13:03.840 a manager who cares about you. Who's number one. If 2:13:03.840 --> 2:13:08.400 it's the biggest manager, it's irrelevant if you know they're not. 2:13:08.920 --> 2:13:11.680 You know. That's why relationships make a difference in terms 2:13:11.720 --> 2:13:14.920 of the act and the manager, so the manager can 2:13:15.080 --> 2:13:20.280 leverage opportunities. One of the big things for an act 2:13:20.760 --> 2:13:24.000 is exposure. One thing, you know is what you think 2:13:24.120 --> 2:13:29.280 is going to work almost universally never works. Yeah it's 2:13:29.320 --> 2:13:31.960 a thing you said, ah, I don't really want to 2:13:32.040 --> 2:13:34.600 do it, but okay, blah blah, and then all of 2:13:34.640 --> 2:13:40.040 a sudden that works. Okay, So having seen you, I say, okay, 2:13:40.480 --> 2:13:43.920 if someone saw this, they would get this is rare. 2:13:44.280 --> 2:13:46.840 I mean no, you put it very well. No one 2:13:46.920 --> 2:13:50.400 is doing what you're doing. So theoretically you could have 2:13:50.440 --> 2:13:53.680 a manager who could put you in spots where you 2:13:53.680 --> 2:13:56.880 could potentially get lucky. Okay, that's one thing. 2:13:57.040 --> 2:13:57.400 Yeah. 2:13:57.480 --> 2:14:05.800 The next thing is TikTok. Musicians have it wrong. I'll 2:14:05.800 --> 2:14:07.880 give you an example, which is kind of funny. You 2:14:08.080 --> 2:14:14.240 wear this guy, Jesse Wells. Jesse Wells is a guy 2:14:14.360 --> 2:14:19.920 who does topical material alone on his guitar, and he's 2:14:20.000 --> 2:14:25.440 releasing material very frequently, like one song a week, okay, 2:14:26.000 --> 2:14:29.440 and he's gotten amazing coverage and the New York type Listen. 2:14:29.640 --> 2:14:33.400 It's a hard road to hoe because you're not making 2:14:33.480 --> 2:14:37.120 songs for the radio whatever. But this guy went from 2:14:37.240 --> 2:14:42.000 essentially nothing he's been around to being People email me 2:14:42.040 --> 2:14:46.440 about Jesse Wells as much as they do of anybody. Okay, 2:14:46.840 --> 2:14:49.320 I look at Jesse Wells. He stands in their guitar, 2:14:49.520 --> 2:14:52.160 usually like in a field or by a railroad track 2:14:52.240 --> 2:14:55.680 or something, and he sings a topical song. Okay. The 2:14:55.720 --> 2:14:59.760 songs are brief, for like two minutes. Bob Dylan does 2:14:59.800 --> 2:15:02.760 not have a radio friendly voice, but he's the best 2:15:02.880 --> 2:15:07.920 lyricist of all time. Jesse Wells is not the best 2:15:08.000 --> 2:15:10.440 lyrics of all time, but he also doesn't have the 2:15:10.480 --> 2:15:15.520 world's most palatable voice, but he is on there every week. 2:15:16.120 --> 2:15:18.840 Just recently, there are people starting to do what he's doing. 2:15:19.480 --> 2:15:27.200 So if you're on TikTok saying, you know, performing a song, 2:15:27.640 --> 2:15:30.760 let's be very clear. I think briefer the better. Certainly, 2:15:30.800 --> 2:15:34.280 nothing more than two minutes. It could be thirty seconds. 2:15:34.360 --> 2:15:37.400 It could be something you make up on the spot 2:15:37.480 --> 2:15:42.560 that is one hundred percent true to yourself, not second 2:15:42.600 --> 2:15:47.920 guessing the audience, but being exhibiting. This is what I do. 2:15:48.080 --> 2:15:50.360 And in addition, you do more than play music. You 2:15:50.360 --> 2:15:53.120 have a personality of a sense of comedy. If that 2:15:53.280 --> 2:15:57.280 comes up you today, more than every you have to 2:15:57.320 --> 2:16:00.160 be in the game to win it. It's great to 2:16:00.200 --> 2:16:02.760 go on the road. Let's talk about the acts that 2:16:02.840 --> 2:16:07.600 are really not Spotify Top fifty acts, new acts, not 2:16:07.760 --> 2:16:09.640 you or you made it a tail end of the 2:16:09.680 --> 2:16:15.360 old thing. They can be fantastic. It takes longer than 2:16:15.440 --> 2:16:17.960 ever to break through. As we all know, most of 2:16:18.000 --> 2:16:22.840 them no breakthrough, but some do. Okay. None of those 2:16:22.880 --> 2:16:26.280 acts are Internet savvy. They all say, oh, I'm a musician, 2:16:26.920 --> 2:16:29.480 I don't do that. I got a team for that. 2:16:30.320 --> 2:16:34.320 The joke is on them because this is where the 2:16:34.360 --> 2:16:39.320 active audience is the one thing you're looking for. Your virality. 2:16:39.400 --> 2:16:44.240 The term is way overused. But this is what people 2:16:44.240 --> 2:16:47.000 don't realize. I quote this all the time. I ripped 2:16:47.000 --> 2:16:50.400 it out of Newsweek thirty years ago. I had it, 2:16:51.000 --> 2:16:54.360 don't have it anymore. But there's this mozart expert, she's 2:16:54.440 --> 2:16:58.600 really big in a world not my world. Meets Jeita 2:16:59.240 --> 2:17:02.320 and she says, I teach a lot. I tell my 2:17:03.240 --> 2:17:06.520 students to practice a long time and be great because 2:17:06.560 --> 2:17:09.920 there's very few great things out there, and if you're great, 2:17:10.200 --> 2:17:14.760 people will find you. We are dying to tell people 2:17:14.800 --> 2:17:18.119 we saw something great. Dying. We don't want to get paid. 2:17:18.120 --> 2:17:21.800 We just want to say, did you see that? Okay? 2:17:22.360 --> 2:17:24.840 And in the music world, listen, there are a lot 2:17:24.879 --> 2:17:26.480 of people who say, oh, I went this, and you go. 2:17:27.280 --> 2:17:29.640 And you don't trust them because they thinks everything's great. 2:17:29.879 --> 2:17:32.920 You have something unique? Do I think if you started 2:17:33.040 --> 2:17:35.959 using it on TikTok tomorrow you'd instantly blow up big. 2:17:36.720 --> 2:17:39.760 Probably not, but if you're not in the game, you 2:17:39.760 --> 2:17:41.080 have no chance of breaking. 2:17:41.360 --> 2:17:44.800 It's true. It's true. I did just get my one 2:17:44.879 --> 2:17:50.520 hundred thousand YouTube subscribers award, so I'm not doing not that. 2:17:51.040 --> 2:17:54.840 As I'm trying to say, is TikTok is where it's. 2:17:54.720 --> 2:18:01.240 At no I get I know, I appreciate the kickut 2:18:01.240 --> 2:18:03.760 of the RS because I know you're right and you have. 2:18:03.840 --> 2:18:07.960 The right personality and music for it. That is so rare. 2:18:09.800 --> 2:18:11.960 Okay, Okay, you've persuaded. 2:18:11.560 --> 2:18:13.640 Go on TikTok just to get a feel. You have 2:18:13.720 --> 2:18:16.600 to be on the other and look at this guy, Jesse. 2:18:16.959 --> 2:18:19.240 Do I have to download it? Do I have to 2:18:19.280 --> 2:18:19.800 look at it? 2:18:21.040 --> 2:18:21.200 Oh? 2:18:21.200 --> 2:18:23.120 Can I just make stuff for it? Do I have 2:18:23.160 --> 2:18:23.720 to look at it. 2:18:24.120 --> 2:18:28.080 To at it? For a couple of reasons, One, okay, 2:18:29.040 --> 2:18:31.879 you get on it and it takes a while to 2:18:32.040 --> 2:18:34.160 learn what your interests are. 2:18:34.400 --> 2:18:36.720 Yes, you have to understand it, right, They have. 2:18:36.840 --> 2:18:40.440 To understand you, and then it will show you stuff 2:18:40.879 --> 2:18:43.760 you didn't know you were interested in that you love. 2:18:44.160 --> 2:18:47.200 No other platform is like this. I'm on TikTok. They 2:18:47.200 --> 2:18:50.760 start showing me car repair videos. I don't know how 2:18:50.760 --> 2:18:53.360 to repair a car. I'm never going to repair my 2:18:53.440 --> 2:18:59.119 own car whatever, But I find this shit riveting. Okay. 2:19:00.240 --> 2:19:07.200 Another thing, I'm like, I'm addicted to this chiropractor. But 2:19:08.000 --> 2:19:10.840 and I just fucking watched this chiropractor for like an 2:19:10.840 --> 2:19:11.720 hour and a half. 2:19:11.760 --> 2:19:16.400 But when you go on changing people's lives very quickly. 2:19:17.000 --> 2:19:20.880 You will learn what works and doesn't work. To be 2:19:21.000 --> 2:19:25.400 a musician, you have to pay your dues. Most people 2:19:25.480 --> 2:19:29.039 don't want to pay their dues, and today they're using shortcuts. 2:19:29.280 --> 2:19:32.680 Whether it be you know, it could be electronic instruments, 2:19:32.680 --> 2:19:36.800 but it also be writers, producers, etc. You have people 2:19:37.000 --> 2:19:42.920 on TikTok exhibiting what creativity it is mind blowing. Yes, 2:19:43.200 --> 2:19:45.400 you have people on there saying, let me tell you 2:19:45.400 --> 2:19:47.160 the story of my date. Let me tell you the 2:19:47.160 --> 2:19:49.400 story of the divorce. Okay, then go to see other 2:19:49.440 --> 2:19:52.359 things in go this person has a ton of personality. 2:19:53.000 --> 2:19:55.560 How did they tell the story this way? 2:19:57.040 --> 2:19:59.520 I mean part of it is you sort of have 2:19:59.600 --> 2:20:01.920 to have some one filming you all the time, and 2:20:01.959 --> 2:20:05.120 I don't have that person. You've got to pay that 2:20:05.240 --> 2:20:08.080 first you have a smartphone, and then but also then 2:20:08.120 --> 2:20:12.280 if I'm just doing it myself, like there's part of me, 2:20:12.640 --> 2:20:14.840 the part of me that fights just going I don't 2:20:14.959 --> 2:20:20.040 want my immediate response to something cool to be let's 2:20:20.080 --> 2:20:20.600 film it. 2:20:21.640 --> 2:20:25.800 But I know what you and I agree with a smartphone. 2:20:25.800 --> 2:20:30.679 The latest smartphones are you know, four K. They're unbelievable. Okay, 2:20:30.840 --> 2:20:33.320 you can buy a little tripod if you need, you know, 2:20:33.480 --> 2:20:37.720 you can use books, you can Amazon. 2:20:39.200 --> 2:20:41.000 Just promise me, I'm not going to be one of 2:20:41.000 --> 2:20:44.119 these people who fucking falls off Niagara Falls while I'm 2:20:44.200 --> 2:20:46.160 videoing myself. I don't want to die. 2:20:46.240 --> 2:20:52.640 No, no, no, no no, don't. Don't. You have to have 2:20:52.680 --> 2:20:57.160 the modern tent. Noalitay, the old school social media. Tell 2:20:57.160 --> 2:21:00.080 me what you ate for breakfast, Give me a travel 2:21:00.560 --> 2:21:03.840 How are you making your album? Forget all that that 2:21:04.000 --> 2:21:07.400 is over? Okay, it's not a peek into your life 2:21:07.800 --> 2:21:12.720 for fans to know more. It's about exhibiting some creativity 2:21:12.760 --> 2:21:13.400 in your vein. 2:21:15.080 --> 2:21:15.360 Okay. 2:21:15.360 --> 2:21:20.520 I mean you may not do this, okay, but okay. 2:21:20.840 --> 2:21:23.160 There could be something in the news. You get an idea, 2:21:23.480 --> 2:21:26.520 you write a song that you post it. You're never 2:21:26.560 --> 2:21:30.120 gonna sing the song again, that's right. Or you could 2:21:30.120 --> 2:21:34.680 say I came into the hotel room, somebody's banging on 2:21:34.720 --> 2:21:37.440 the wall. I've been in too many hotel rooms. Let 2:21:37.480 --> 2:21:40.080 me tell you this story. I mean, just because you're inspired. 2:21:40.120 --> 2:21:44.640 If you're second guessing what the audience wants, you're done. 2:21:44.879 --> 2:21:48.280 Don't so it's your personality. I've been talking to you 2:21:48.360 --> 2:21:51.680 for two hours. Okay, what do I know you have 2:21:51.720 --> 2:21:55.240 a personality. It's not wimpy, and you can tell a 2:21:55.280 --> 2:21:58.920 story that puts you, that puts you ahead of a 2:21:58.959 --> 2:22:03.520 million people. The thing is you have a slight edge. 2:22:03.720 --> 2:22:05.760 And I used to I like to use the you 2:22:05.800 --> 2:22:09.199 know the concept of bell Crow. Delcrow has these little 2:22:09.240 --> 2:22:13.520 hooks and these little things. If there's no edge, nothing 2:22:13.560 --> 2:22:18.880 can hook you. So you have that little edge, you know. 2:22:19.000 --> 2:22:19.480 It's like. 2:22:21.560 --> 2:22:24.080 The bland artists are never I'm not gonna say you're 2:22:24.120 --> 2:22:28.080 super edgy, but doing something bland to appeal to a 2:22:28.080 --> 2:22:31.600 lot of people no longer works. You said it yourself, 2:22:31.680 --> 2:22:35.400 you go. If you want what I've got, you can't 2:22:35.440 --> 2:22:39.560 get it anywhere else. Does everybody want what I've got? No, 2:22:40.160 --> 2:22:42.400 the more people want what I've got, they aren't aware 2:22:42.400 --> 2:22:46.320 of it. Yes, okay, I got two final questions to 2:22:46.440 --> 2:22:51.840 let you go. One. In this journey, especially from university 2:22:52.120 --> 2:22:54.680 to getting your record deal, everything could given up. 2:22:58.000 --> 2:23:05.879 Not then. No, there was absolutely zero plan B. And 2:23:05.959 --> 2:23:13.560 I I really enjoyed the struggle. I found it purposeful, 2:23:13.720 --> 2:23:17.320 I found it exciting. It was an adventure. I didn't 2:23:17.360 --> 2:23:18.840 know where it was going to take me next. I 2:23:18.879 --> 2:23:21.600 loved just you know, jumping on the train or the bus, 2:23:21.680 --> 2:23:24.640 or having to sleep on the floor, or I really 2:23:24.720 --> 2:23:27.200 really enjoyed it. And there was definitely times where I 2:23:27.280 --> 2:23:32.520 was really frustrated because I couldn't get my music in 2:23:32.560 --> 2:23:34.720 front of the right people. I couldn't get, you know, 2:23:35.920 --> 2:23:38.520 having not being able to open the doors to be 2:23:38.680 --> 2:23:40.760 but I always had to say where I could just 2:23:41.160 --> 2:23:44.600 play for them, they could hear it. I reckon it 2:23:44.600 --> 2:23:46.320 would work, but I just couldn't get in front of 2:23:46.320 --> 2:23:47.920 the people that I needed to get in front of. 2:23:48.520 --> 2:23:53.760 But it felt it felt like I was writing a 2:23:53.760 --> 2:23:56.879 good story all of that, you know, while I was 2:23:56.920 --> 2:24:00.959 trying to get there. But I've definitely had after being 2:24:00.959 --> 2:24:04.440 successful that I didn't want to do it. 2:24:05.000 --> 2:24:08.000 You didn't want to do it just to put a 2:24:08.000 --> 2:24:12.240 bow on it, not because you weren't successful, It was 2:24:12.320 --> 2:24:13.760 more it wasn't working for you. 2:24:16.480 --> 2:24:20.200 I think both. I definitely went through a period of 2:24:20.240 --> 2:24:23.920 time of being quite bitter where I felt like I 2:24:24.000 --> 2:24:27.080 should be doing better than I was, and I deserved 2:24:27.160 --> 2:24:31.280 to be doing better than I was. And that's nasty. 2:24:31.400 --> 2:24:34.360 That's a nasty thing to feel, and that turns you 2:24:34.400 --> 2:24:38.720 into an unpleasant person. And I know other musicians who 2:24:38.920 --> 2:24:42.640 who certainly feel that way, that they feel like they 2:24:42.680 --> 2:24:45.920 should be entitled to a more successful career than they have, 2:24:46.560 --> 2:24:48.560 and that's a bad feeling to have. 2:24:49.480 --> 2:24:50.480 How do you get over that? 2:24:51.920 --> 2:24:54.720 You can have a word for yourself. You're being an asshole. 2:24:55.160 --> 2:24:58.320 You're being an asshole. And even now I'm like, I 2:24:58.360 --> 2:25:03.240 see other artists, you know, going it's so hard and 2:25:03.520 --> 2:25:07.039 I should we should get paid more, and it's so 2:25:07.160 --> 2:25:10.800 expensive to tour, and it's like, well, yeah, okay, there's 2:25:10.840 --> 2:25:13.360 some unfairness, but you've got to be really fucking good 2:25:13.680 --> 2:25:16.120 as well. You've got to be You've got to be 2:25:16.200 --> 2:25:18.920 someone people want to pay their money to come and see, 2:25:19.480 --> 2:25:21.920 and you've got a responsibility to put on a really, 2:25:21.959 --> 2:25:24.760 really fucking good show if you want people to go 2:25:24.800 --> 2:25:26.680 to work all week and then spend their cash on 2:25:26.720 --> 2:25:30.680 your ticket. Don't think that you don't. It's not on you, 2:25:31.120 --> 2:25:36.840 incumbent on you to write really good material, make it 2:25:36.879 --> 2:25:39.000 sound really good on a record, and make it sound 2:25:39.040 --> 2:25:42.920 even better when you play it live. So I think 2:25:43.000 --> 2:25:46.360 it was having a word with myself, getting happy on 2:25:46.400 --> 2:25:48.600 the inside, get sorting my own shit out. So I 2:25:48.680 --> 2:25:52.720 wasn't blaming other people and blaming circumstances for why I 2:25:52.760 --> 2:26:01.320 didn't feel good, and then really having a spiritual reconnection 2:26:02.959 --> 2:26:07.400 with extremely deep gratitude that I'm one of the very 2:26:07.520 --> 2:26:09.480 very few people on this planet that gets to do 2:26:09.520 --> 2:26:13.000 this as a job and get to do this successfully 2:26:13.080 --> 2:26:16.280 and have a relationship with fans, and you are so 2:26:17.000 --> 2:26:20.000 lucky to do what you love doing for a job, 2:26:20.120 --> 2:26:23.440 because everybody would want that, and very few people get it. 2:26:23.480 --> 2:26:27.240 Okay, you talked about loving the struggle prior to getting 2:26:27.240 --> 2:26:32.000 your record deal. You're enjoying the struggle. Were you convinced 2:26:32.000 --> 2:26:32.959 you were going to make it? 2:26:36.600 --> 2:26:43.160 Well, I mean, it's very kind of gaseous term make it, 2:26:43.200 --> 2:26:43.800 isn't it. 2:26:43.800 --> 2:26:46.240 It's not you're going to achieve whatever goal you had. 2:26:47.720 --> 2:26:53.240 I was definitely ambitious, for sure, but I really did 2:26:53.240 --> 2:26:59.480 not have any expectations, nor did I have particular dreams 2:26:59.600 --> 2:27:02.440 about doing as well as I did. I did not 2:27:02.640 --> 2:27:04.640 expect to do as well as I did. I did 2:27:04.680 --> 2:27:06.800 not know anybody who'd done as well as I did. 2:27:08.720 --> 2:27:14.520 And I think really the driver for me was I 2:27:14.560 --> 2:27:17.199 wanted to be a musician, not have to have another job. 2:27:17.400 --> 2:27:20.240 That was the dream. I just I wanted to do 2:27:20.440 --> 2:27:24.920 music as a living and if that meant I remember 2:27:25.000 --> 2:27:26.160 like arguing with my mom. 2:27:26.360 --> 2:27:26.560 You know. 2:27:26.720 --> 2:27:32.360 She was just like, this is insane. You shouldn't expect 2:27:32.440 --> 2:27:34.400 to do what you love for a living. That's what 2:27:34.440 --> 2:27:36.360 hobbies are for, you know. You need to get a 2:27:36.360 --> 2:27:38.960 proper job. They were very worried about me, especially as 2:27:39.000 --> 2:27:41.920 I'm you know, getting close to thirty and I don't 2:27:41.920 --> 2:27:47.640 have any money. And I said, I watched you be 2:27:47.760 --> 2:27:52.640 a teacher, and I don't believe that you've loved that job. 2:27:53.879 --> 2:27:55.800 And she was like, no, it's a difficult job. And 2:27:55.840 --> 2:27:59.360 I was like, well, it's not that it's difficult. It's 2:27:59.440 --> 2:28:02.000 just that I would prefer to not go on holiday, 2:28:02.280 --> 2:28:05.600 not go out for dinner, not have nice new clothes, 2:28:06.080 --> 2:28:08.440 and do what I love every day. I don't want 2:28:08.440 --> 2:28:11.520 to work a job that I fucking hate and have 2:28:11.560 --> 2:28:14.800 a two week holiday and have some money. I would 2:28:14.840 --> 2:28:18.920 prefer to be poor and do this because I'm going 2:28:19.000 --> 2:28:23.160 to be miserable. I'm going to die regretful if I 2:28:23.200 --> 2:28:27.920 don't spend my life as a musician. And so I 2:28:28.120 --> 2:28:32.680 was so the make it. Part of it was just 2:28:32.800 --> 2:28:34.560 to not have to do another job. 2:28:35.160 --> 2:28:38.800 Okay, what I think is the final question, how do 2:28:38.840 --> 2:28:41.640 you perform on stage with this hearing problem. 2:28:46.600 --> 2:28:48.840 It's cheaper than it used to be because I only 2:28:48.879 --> 2:28:54.240 need one wedge, so I just have a wedge on 2:28:54.280 --> 2:28:57.959 my right hand side. It's awesome. It's much easier. It 2:28:58.080 --> 2:29:00.680 was the hardest part about the hearing loss was that 2:29:00.760 --> 2:29:04.280 I got vertical, a really bad vertigo. For three months 2:29:04.320 --> 2:29:07.120 after I lost my hearing, I couldn't walk. I was 2:29:07.160 --> 2:29:09.920 like having to hold the sink while I'm brushing my 2:29:09.959 --> 2:29:13.240 teeth because I was going to fall over. It was grim. 2:29:14.040 --> 2:29:16.800 It was the grimmest thing I've ever experienced. And I 2:29:16.920 --> 2:29:19.720 really feel so bad for people who suffer with vertico 2:29:19.760 --> 2:29:24.600 because it's completely debilitating and you don't know if it's 2:29:24.800 --> 2:29:26.400 you don't know if it's going to go away. I 2:29:26.440 --> 2:29:27.800 didn't know if that was it for the rest of 2:29:27.800 --> 2:29:30.920 my life. It's just horrendous. I was so nauseous and 2:29:30.959 --> 2:29:35.840 I couldn't really you know, you can't really drive, and 2:29:35.959 --> 2:29:40.000 I couldn't really. I couldn't stand on stage for three months. 2:29:40.000 --> 2:29:43.680 I was definitely out of action. And the first gig 2:29:43.720 --> 2:29:48.160 I did after it started to obey, I was nervous 2:29:48.280 --> 2:29:51.320 that I was going to fall over. And I got 2:29:51.360 --> 2:29:53.600 through it, and that was great. I got through it. 2:29:53.959 --> 2:29:57.280 And then it just slowly improved and improved. I don't 2:29:57.360 --> 2:30:01.680 I can't do roller coasters and stuff anymore, but I 2:30:01.760 --> 2:30:07.360 don't suffer from vertigo anymore. And honestly, when that stopped, 2:30:07.760 --> 2:30:10.080 I could give a shit about having both my ears. 2:30:10.120 --> 2:30:14.360 I was like, as long as that has stopped, I'm 2:30:14.400 --> 2:30:19.040 good and listen. I have tenetus's annoying. I can hear 2:30:19.040 --> 2:30:23.439 it all the time. I have not got stereo hearing anymore. 2:30:23.720 --> 2:30:29.279 I miss it. I remember loving hearing panned backing vocals 2:30:29.280 --> 2:30:33.000 and how nice that was. But as my producer friends 2:30:33.000 --> 2:30:35.520 tell me, all the best records were made in Monomi. 2:30:36.200 --> 2:30:45.040 So it's really not impacted me very much at all. 2:30:45.200 --> 2:30:47.560 I can do everything that I used to do. I 2:30:47.680 --> 2:30:49.959 just I can't hear the person to my left to dinner. 2:30:50.120 --> 2:30:53.360 That's it. Otherwise, you know, I think it had it 2:30:53.400 --> 2:30:56.039 happened to me ten years earlier, it would have been 2:30:56.400 --> 2:31:01.959 really extremely challenging, because I'd and you know whatever, fifteen 2:31:02.000 --> 2:31:06.640 years of touring under my belt. I was actually, it 2:31:06.720 --> 2:31:10.080 might sound strange, but when it happened, there was actually 2:31:10.280 --> 2:31:13.840 some relief that I could stop for a while. And 2:31:13.920 --> 2:31:18.000 I was like, oh shit, I'm burnt out here. I've burnt. 2:31:18.040 --> 2:31:20.240 I've burnt my nervous system out, and I need to 2:31:20.240 --> 2:31:23.360 be more careful. And now it's a real reminder that 2:31:23.400 --> 2:31:27.000 I've got to look after myself. And I'm very very 2:31:28.120 --> 2:31:31.520 When I went there, I kept singing that Nina Simone song. 2:31:31.840 --> 2:31:35.880 Got mass, got my liver, I got my blood. 2:31:36.360 --> 2:31:39.280 I was like, I can walk, I can see, I 2:31:39.320 --> 2:31:44.000 can still hear, I'm healthy, I'm good. It could have 2:31:44.080 --> 2:31:46.920 been so much worse. There's so much worse things that 2:31:46.959 --> 2:31:47.600 could have happened. 2:31:48.760 --> 2:31:50.720 Okay, I think we've come to the end of the 2:31:50.720 --> 2:31:54.120 feeling we've known. I want to thank you Katie for 2:31:54.320 --> 2:31:59.119 telling your stories and ensuring your life with my audience. 2:31:59.160 --> 2:32:00.440 So thanks for taking the time. 2:32:00.959 --> 2:32:03.520 Thank you so much, Bob, Thank you for what you do. 2:32:03.879 --> 2:32:08.600 It's a constant in a crazy world, and your love 2:32:08.640 --> 2:32:12.800 of music pervades. It's really really cool and it's an 2:32:12.800 --> 2:32:15.520 honor to be on the show. Thanks for everyone listening. 2:32:15.600 --> 2:32:19.120 And it's been really great talking about all this stuff. 2:32:19.120 --> 2:32:20.480 I've really loved it. 2:32:20.480 --> 2:32:23.879 It certainly has. Till next time. This is Bob Last