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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Katie Tunstall. Katie, how's your hearing?

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Speaker 2: Fifty great, fifty percent completely caput. So yeah, you probably

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Speaker 2: know that I lost my hearing a halfway through a

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Speaker 2: tour in twenty eighteen on my left side and it's

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Speaker 2: never come back.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more, Tell me how you

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Speaker 1: discovered it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was obviously it was a massive shock. I'd

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Speaker 2: got some top end hearing loss about ten years earlier,

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Speaker 2: and I always say it's not the Spice Girl's fault,

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Speaker 2: but it was after going to a Spice Girls show

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Speaker 2: in like Wembley. But I'm friends with Sporty and she'd

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Speaker 2: given me these amazing seats up front and I was

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Speaker 2: very close to the speaker. I don't think it was

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Speaker 2: necessarily just that. I think I was just burnt out.

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Speaker 2: My nervous system was struggling touring incessantly, and I'd just

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Speaker 2: come off a long haul flight and I noticed that

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Speaker 2: I sort of lost top end hearing and I got

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Speaker 2: very bad tenetus after that, and I after whatever happened,

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Speaker 2: you know, over that twenty four hours, and you know,

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Speaker 2: tonightus as it's pronounced in the US is extremely frustrating

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Speaker 2: and very difficult for a musician. And when I first

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Speaker 2: got it, it was it was perfect Middle Sea pitch

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Speaker 2: and I could tune my guitar to the tenetus. And

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Speaker 2: then I kind of thought that was that that I

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Speaker 2: just had a bit of a tough ear. And then

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Speaker 2: ten years later I was on tour and I was

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Speaker 2: halfway through the tour and I wear earplugs on the

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Speaker 2: tour bus, and I took my ear plugs out and

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Speaker 2: on my left side, it just didn't make any difference,

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Speaker 2: and it just felt like my ear was underwater. And

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Speaker 2: I'd suffer sensorin neural sudden hearing loss ss HL, which

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Speaker 2: basically means they have no fucking idea why you've just

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Speaker 2: lost your hearing, and they like shot some steroids into

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Speaker 2: my ear drum, which can sometimes work, but it didn't

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Speaker 2: for me. And yeah, so.

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Speaker 1: What's a prognosis never going to come back?

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Speaker 2: I think losing my hearing In twenty twenty five, there's

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Speaker 2: more of a likelihood that something might happen where it

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Speaker 2: can be restored. I don't know, maybe stem cells, maybe

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Speaker 2: some new tech, you know, stick a robot in my

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Speaker 2: ear see what happens. But at the same time, I

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Speaker 2: find that I've really calibrated it to in a way

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Speaker 2: that it doesn't feel as impactful as you might think.

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Speaker 2: I've also got a profoundly deaf younger brother. My younger brother,

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Speaker 2: Dan was born completely deaf, and he had a cochlear

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Speaker 2: implant when he was like in his twenties. But he's

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Speaker 2: a tennis coach and I remember telling him, Oh, my god,

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Speaker 2: I've lost my I've lost my hearing in one ear

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Speaker 2: and he just did this like little tiny violin and

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Speaker 2: he was like, oh, for you. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: fuck you, man, you're not a musician.

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Speaker 1: If your brother was born deaf, how is that growing

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Speaker 1: up in the family.

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Speaker 2: It's such a good question, and people don't ask me

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Speaker 2: that very often, And I think it goes for any sibling,

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Speaker 2: especially if the sibling is younger than you. But I

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Speaker 2: think it probably it doesn't have a huge impact the

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Speaker 2: order that you're in in a family. But you're always

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Speaker 2: going to be more you know, you're going to as

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Speaker 2: a sister, you're going to be protective of your little

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Speaker 2: brother usually, And it was really interesting to me. He

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Speaker 2: was born when I was four, and our family is

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Speaker 2: very interesting because I'm adopted. My older brother is adopted,

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Speaker 2: and my mom was told she couldn't have kids, and

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Speaker 2: then she got pregnant and she had my little brother

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Speaker 2: and he was born deaf, and it kind of leveled

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Speaker 2: our family playing field where it's like, yeah, boohoo, you've

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Speaker 2: got given up your rescue human being, but this guy

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Speaker 2: can't hear, so you know, all focus was really on

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Speaker 2: Dan and making sure that he was loved and supported

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Speaker 2: in the family. But I was very close to Dan,

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Speaker 2: and it was amazing watching people ignore him as we

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Speaker 2: were going off and have these conversations, just just sort

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Speaker 2: of not care that he was not part of it.

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Speaker 2: So I would always be translating constantly, and I think

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Speaker 2: just from a communication point of view, that's been really

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Speaker 2: fundamental for me. Like of just it's also like when

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Speaker 2: I meet fans after shows, I can just feel that

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Speaker 2: some specific fans that come and say hi are in

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Speaker 2: a lot of pain, or they've had a lot of damage,

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Speaker 2: or they have got some sort of disability, and I

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Speaker 2: always like want to go to that person first. And

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Speaker 2: I'm not like Mother Treys or anything, but I just

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Speaker 2: I feel very sensitive to that because my.

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Speaker 1: Brother so did everybody in the family learn sign language.

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Speaker 2: Now, interestingly, we just my mom and dad decided because

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Speaker 2: we grew up in such a small town in Saint

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Speaker 2: Andrew's in Scotland, it was only like eleven thousand people

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Speaker 2: or something. They realized that if he spoke sign language,

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Speaker 2: he wouldn't be able to speak to anyone. No one

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Speaker 2: else speaks sign language in our little town. So they've

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Speaker 2: kind of quite bravely decided to teach him how to speak,

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Speaker 2: which was really challenging for him because he it's hard

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Speaker 2: and a lot of deaf people don't decide to learn

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Speaker 2: how to speak. And it was amazing watching it because

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Speaker 2: you know, when he's seventeen and goes off to college,

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Speaker 2: there's people who are way more deaf than he is,

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Speaker 2: but he's the tray later between them and a hearing

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Speaker 2: person in the pub, you know, and he's just done

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Speaker 2: amazingly well. He's a really, really beautiful person. He's a

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Speaker 2: very very lovely person. He missed out on a lot

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Speaker 2: of that pifful kind of bullshit judgmental stuff that you

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Speaker 2: learn as a kid. Like I had a conversation with

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Speaker 2: him as an adult, and he had no idea that

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Speaker 2: ginger people got discriminated against, then got shit from people.

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Speaker 2: He was just like, but why why not people with

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Speaker 2: brown hair? And I was like, I know, I can't,

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Speaker 2: I can't answer if it was just so beautiful, but

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Speaker 2: he just missed that and he didn't know that that

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Speaker 2: was a thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, just a little bit deeper. Before the cochlear implant,

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Speaker 1: he couldn't.

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Speaker 2: Hear anything, so he had a hearing aid. He had

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Speaker 2: one of these, you know, phonic ears they were called.

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Speaker 2: And interestingly, actually my mom and dad, my dad was

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Speaker 2: a physicist. He got a sabbatical to UCLA when I

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Speaker 2: was four, and there was a really good deaf clinic

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Speaker 2: called John Tracy Clinic in La, so we he relocated

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Speaker 2: to LA when I was four, which I think is

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Speaker 2: why America and particularly the West Coast like imprinted on

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Speaker 2: me because it's my first memories. We're California, and my

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Speaker 2: mom was just going to the clinic and kind of

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Speaker 2: learning ways to deal with Dan and so he could

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Speaker 2: hear somewhat, you know, with his hearing aid. It was

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Speaker 2: funny because my mom had this remote like microphone that

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Speaker 2: would like tap straight into his ears. So if he

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Speaker 2: was on the street, like taking his bike too far.

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Speaker 2: She'd be like, Daniel stop, and he just like grew

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Speaker 2: up with the fucking voice of God in his ears.

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Speaker 2: It was really funny. And sometimes we'd like steal the

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Speaker 2: microphone and speak to him from other rooms and stuff.

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Speaker 2: And then he got his colt clear implant and they

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Speaker 2: have to like put a magna in your skull to

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Speaker 2: keep this thing on, and we would pretend that our

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Speaker 2: silverware was like sticking to his head.

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Speaker 1: And as this sister, how is it different now that

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Speaker 1: he has a cochlear implant? How well does he hear?

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Speaker 2: He hears a lot better. For sure, he can hear.

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Speaker 2: He can tell the difference between male and female voices.

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Speaker 2: He can hear pitch. I remember before he got it,

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Speaker 2: I was trying to teach him how to sing song

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Speaker 2: too by Blur. We were in the car and it

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Speaker 2: was playing and I was like.

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Speaker 3: Dn did a Dan did a dead ada down a whoo,

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Speaker 3: and he went, d's just.

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Speaker 2: Like doll black pitch, And so he he definitely could

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Speaker 2: hear better. And there's this amazing moment after he'd had

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Speaker 2: his coclear implant and he'd been to a few gigs

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Speaker 2: of mine where I was now like playing through proper

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Speaker 2: big PA systems so he could hear better rather than

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Speaker 2: terrible pub pas full of people drinking and talking. And

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Speaker 2: we're in the supermarket and black Horse and the Cherry

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Speaker 2: Tree comes on the stereo and he looks at me

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Speaker 2: and he goes, is that you? And I like nearly

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Speaker 2: started crying. I was like, how do you know that?

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Speaker 2: That's me? And he just goes and I was like,

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Speaker 2: that's basically my career.

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Speaker 1: You were only four when your younger brother was born.

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Speaker 1: But did you notice since he had the disability that

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Speaker 1: he got more attention?

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Speaker 2: I in our family he did, but I certainly didn't

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Speaker 2: feel any resentment around that because you could tell that

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Speaker 2: his life was harder, and I think out in the

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Speaker 2: world he got less attention was he was quiet and

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Speaker 2: he would not you know, people sometimes didn't want to

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Speaker 2: deal with having to talk to death person. So I

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Speaker 2: think it was those It was both of those things.

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Speaker 1: So although it's not unheard of, it is not common

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Speaker 1: that a family has both adopted children and natural children.

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Speaker 1: Can you speak to that experience?

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Speaker 2: It's it's a ride, it's a wild ride. And my

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Speaker 2: parents were given the advice when they adopted me and

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Speaker 2: my brother to start telling us that we were adopted

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Speaker 2: before we would even understand. So basically it's like start

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Speaker 2: practicing and and and I think that was a really

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Speaker 2: great piece of advice. It's really hard. I think. I

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Speaker 2: think the perfect situation would be for for someone not

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Speaker 2: to even know until they were an adult and they

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Speaker 2: were completely formed, so that they could emotionally understand that

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Speaker 2: it was all in their best interests, you know. But

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Speaker 2: there's just no way of doing that. They're a kid

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Speaker 2: is going to find out, and that's just the most awful,

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Speaker 2: hurtful thing is to find out as a young person

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Speaker 2: that you've been lied to. But so I think this

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Speaker 2: is probably the best way of doing it, of me

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Speaker 2: never having a moment where I found out, you know,

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Speaker 2: I just always knew. I remember my dad when I

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Speaker 2: was about four, I was rebelling and I didn't even

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Speaker 2: mean it. I was just being naughty, and I say

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Speaker 2: to him, you can't tell me what to do. You're

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Speaker 2: not even my dad, you know, which is just must

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Speaker 2: have broken his heart. And my dad was not a

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Speaker 2: very emotional man and he so I remember him sitting

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Speaker 2: me on the bed and saying, I know we didn't

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Speaker 2: have you, but we are your mom and dad, so

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Speaker 2: you're not allowed to say that anymore. I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: go and I didn't say anymore. And it actually it

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Speaker 2: didn't the whole, the whole adoption thing. I felt very

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Speaker 2: comfortable about it all through my youth, and then it

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Speaker 2: absolutely bit me on the eye when I was in

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Speaker 2: my early forties. I guess it was some sort of

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Speaker 2: midlife crisis, you know where, and especially being a musician,

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Speaker 2: where you're sort of you have this persona right that

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Speaker 2: you're sharing with the world, but it's not ever going

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Speaker 2: to be a complete picture of yourself. And I just

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Speaker 2: had a huge identity what would be the word implosion

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Speaker 2: and it was really around that and I'd never really

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Speaker 2: explored it, and so I did for a good few

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Speaker 2: years through therapy and through learning.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me about the realization that that was

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Speaker 1: the issue and then how you explored it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I, as you know, had that really successful record

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and four, twenty and five, twenty years ago,

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Speaker 2: and toured and then by it was probably around twoenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: I had, you know, a house in London, a house

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Speaker 2: in the country, an apartment in Edinburgh at one point,

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Speaker 2: an apartment in New York, a nice car, a husband

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Speaker 2: who was the drummer in the band, and I was

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Speaker 2: just fucking miserable. And I just felt like such a cliche.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've got I've realized this impossible dream, I've

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Speaker 2: got all the stuff, and I'm just not happy. And

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Speaker 2: then my dad died. He had Parkinson's, but he died

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Speaker 2: quite unexpectedly. My dad was just the most belligerent guy,

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Speaker 2: and he just refused to stop cycling on his bike

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Speaker 2: and he ended up like falling down a massive pothole

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Speaker 2: in the road. It was so on brand for him,

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Speaker 2: and so he actually died sooner than he would have done.

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Speaker 2: But see, when he died seventy three, he was deteriorating.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, I think all of us felt that

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Speaker 2: there was somewhat of a blessing in him not having

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Speaker 2: to go through the later years of Parkinson's. And we

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Speaker 2: were very much at peace, my dad and I. We

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Speaker 2: had a really cool relationship, and so there wasn't kind

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Speaker 2: of massive grief. I was very sad about losing him,

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Speaker 2: but he'd had a great life and we we were

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Speaker 2: really good where we, you know, ended up at the

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Speaker 2: end of his life. But there was a huge gift.

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Speaker 2: I remember doing like CBS Morning Show or something. They

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Speaker 2: came to St. Andrew's and it was this really great

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Speaker 2: presenter and dad had passed and he said, your parents

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Speaker 2: give birth to you twice, once when you're born and

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Speaker 2: once when they die. And that was massively impactful for me,

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Speaker 2: and I really related to it because my dad's death

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Speaker 2: was this crazy gift where I realized of how much

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Speaker 2: I was really doing things with him in mind, you know,

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Speaker 2: and trying to trying to do the right thing all

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Speaker 2: the time. And then I realized that really that was

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Speaker 2: tied to adoption as well. Was this kind of people

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Speaker 2: pleaser in me which i'd also which had also really

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Speaker 2: really like come into my professional life as well, which

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Speaker 2: is not good for an artist. You know, you do

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Speaker 2: not want to be a people pleaser if you want

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Speaker 2: to make art. I mean, obviously aspect of that is great,

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Speaker 2: is helpful to put on a nice show for people

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Speaker 2: and all that, but when you're actually making the work.

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Speaker 2: And it kind of spiraled from there and I had

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Speaker 2: what I learned the Eastern expression of a moment of

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Speaker 2: SATURI of kind of instant awakening, and it was about

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Speaker 2: it was in the weeks after my dad had died,

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Speaker 2: and this this incredible awakening of just going fuck, I'm

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Speaker 2: I just felt like I was living in the wrong life.

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Speaker 2: It was very matrix. I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I'm in the wrong reality. This is not the reality

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Speaker 2: I'm meant to be in. And one of the things

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Speaker 2: that always made me laugh and kind of made me

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Speaker 2: laugh at the time was like, my Wikipedia page is

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Speaker 2: so dull. It's just like girl from Scotland does well,

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Speaker 2: you know, and that's it. And I was like, no,

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Speaker 2: this doesn't feel right this and I'm and I'm and

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Speaker 2: I basically realized I was married to the wrong person

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Speaker 2: and I was not connected to source universe, god, whatever

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Speaker 2: you want to call it, in a way that I

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Speaker 2: had been when I was younger, and and I realized

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Speaker 2: that really part of it was a big part of

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Speaker 2: it was a self esteem issue. My self esteem sucked.

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Speaker 2: And there was a lot of bravado, you know, with

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Speaker 2: the being an artist and sort of I have a

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Speaker 2: song called hard Girls, which is kind of what this

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Speaker 2: is about. It's just like presenting yourself as this tough chick,

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Speaker 2: you know, heart drinking, crazy rock chick. I'm just like,

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Speaker 2: sure I can put I can. I can be that,

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Speaker 2: and I enjoy being that when when, when the time

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Speaker 2: is right. But I'm also a girl with low self esteem,

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Speaker 2: and that was coming from I think that was coming

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Speaker 2: from a place of adoption. I think it's just part

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Speaker 2: of the course. You got a band. You're going to

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Speaker 2: have abandonment issues if you're an adopted person, and it's

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Speaker 2: how you handle those. But you're going to have them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you had this moment as a tory, But

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Speaker 1: did you go to a therapist? How did you make

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Speaker 1: the transition?

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Speaker 2: So I about three days. It was about seventy two

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Speaker 2: hours of like this happening, and it was so crazy.

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Speaker 2: Every single song I heard on the radio or in

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Speaker 2: a car was like a message. It was songs I

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Speaker 2: already knew, you know. I remember hearing Rescue Me and

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Speaker 2: just going, shit, this is this is it was. It

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Speaker 2: was overwhelming and it was somewhat kind of like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I felt like I was tripping almost. It was just

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Speaker 2: like the world was talking to me. And so I left.

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Speaker 2: I just sat my ex down and just said I'm

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Speaker 2: not happy. This is not working, and he just packed

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Speaker 2: the bag and left the house. It was just it

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Speaker 2: was completely bizarre. And then and then I knew I

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Speaker 2: needed to go into therapy. So I sort of started

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Speaker 2: that journey and I did a lot of reading. I

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Speaker 2: did a lot of kind of you know, obviously it's

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Speaker 2: not just therapy these days, it's just such good resources

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Speaker 2: online for reading and watching things and kind of opening

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Speaker 2: my mind. And I think just part, I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of it too, was like taking accountability for making

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Speaker 2: bad choices. You know, not all this stuff was happening

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Speaker 2: to me. I think that was the thing that was

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Speaker 2: really tough, actually was I was in charge the whole time.

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Speaker 2: I was making all the decisions. The whole point of

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Speaker 2: wanting to be a musician was because I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to work for anybody, and I wanted to call the

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Speaker 2: shops and I wanted to write my own narrative, live

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Speaker 2: my own life without anybody telling me what to do.

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Speaker 2: And I fucked it so badly, I'd got it wrong,

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Speaker 2: and I think it was it. There was a feeling

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Speaker 2: where you can either do the British thing, the British

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Speaker 2: contractor thing, where you just constantly kind of like paper

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Speaker 2: over holes in the wall, no hotel, and there's layers

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Speaker 2: and layers of shit underneath this white wall, or you

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Speaker 2: just rip it up and you start again. And I

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Speaker 2: decided that that was definitely a much more exciting way

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Speaker 2: of living life, of really trying to just start again,

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Speaker 2: which is what my song Invisible Empire was about. I'll

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Speaker 2: always make a joke that sometimes you have to go

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Speaker 2: to home depot and just rent some heavy machinery and

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Speaker 2: level this fabricated city that you've built that's your reality,

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Speaker 2: and start again. And so I sold everything I owned

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Speaker 2: and I moved to America, which was one of the

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Speaker 2: best things I've ever done.

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Speaker 1: So you had all these houses, you sold them, You'd

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Speaker 1: had had an apartment in you Where did you move

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Speaker 1: to in America?

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Speaker 2: So I moved to La I'm trying to not say this,

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Speaker 2: but I want to say this. The part of why

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Speaker 2: I sold everything was because my ex ripped me off

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Speaker 2: so hard. But I had this love of the West

345
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Speaker 2: Coast because I'd been there as a kid, you know.

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Speaker 2: So my first memories were like swimming pools and orange

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00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 2: trees and great flavoring. And I loved America. I'd also

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Speaker 2: done my last year of high school in Connecticut at

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Speaker 2: Kent School. I got, like randomly got this scholarship to

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Speaker 2: the super expensive boarding school, which was awesome because I

351
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Speaker 2: went to my first shows. I'd never really been to

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Speaker 2: see live music. It was hard to go and see

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Speaker 2: live music where I lived because an hour and a

354
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Speaker 2: half away from any big city. So you know, I

355
00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 2: saw Fish and Van Morrison and The Grateful Dead and

356
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Speaker 2: it was it was amazing and I and it was

357
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Speaker 2: really the first time I got exposed to a lot

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Speaker 2: of new music. And I'd always gravitated towards America as

359
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: a British kid growing up. You know, I'm happy Days

360
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Speaker 2: is on from my you know, I'm watching that from

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Speaker 2: the age of ten or something. Then Friends comes out,

362
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Speaker 2: and you know, and all the movies, I mean, all

363
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Speaker 2: my favorite movies. Thank god I was an eighties kid

364
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 2: because it was just the best time. It was such

365
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 2: an amazing time to grow up. You know, we got

366
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Speaker 2: I went to See Back to the Future five times

367
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Speaker 2: in a row at at the movie theater. And you know,

368
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: my dad being physicist that you sort of got me

369
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 2: into science fiction as well when I was young. So

370
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Speaker 2: all the vernacular, all the imagery and all the music

371
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Speaker 2: I was just so drawn to in America. And I

372
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Speaker 2: think because of La it just felt familiar to me.

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Speaker 2: So I'm moved. I'd done some promo in Santa Monica

374
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Speaker 2: and I looked down the boulevard straight at the ocean

375
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Speaker 2: and a and a fucking dolphin like jumped out the

376
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Speaker 2: water and did and it was like it left a

377
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Speaker 2: rainbow trail. It's like, this is crazy. People live here,

378
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 2: like it's so nice and uh. And so I packed

379
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Speaker 2: my bags off and I moved to Venice Beach and

380
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: it was it was exactly what I needed.

381
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Speaker 1: Okay, all these years later, do you still live in

382
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Speaker 1: Venice Beach?

383
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: No, So it got too crazy for me, unsurprisingly, and

384
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Speaker 2: then I moved up to Tapanga Canyon for a while,

385
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Speaker 2: you know, hitting all the hitting, all the musician spots,

386
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Speaker 2: and it was beautiful up there. But I found that

387
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: I was hankering after nature and I loved being up

388
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 2: there and it was very beautiful. And there's like deer

389
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: off the balcony that I can throw carrots to. And

390
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Speaker 2: I was like, but I'm still in a metropolis, and

391
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Speaker 2: I stay. And I'd met the love of my life

392
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: in a dog park in Serenia Park, in a Calabat

393
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Speaker 2: or a thousand Oaks. I think it is and he

394
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: was a jiu jitsu instructor for twenty years. I'd been

395
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 2: a musician for twenty years, and we were both just

396
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 2: like it was so cool. It was like a John

397
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: Hughes movie. Our dogs introduced us in a dog park

398
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: and I might write a musical about it because it's

399
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: just so funny. And we just decided it was time

400
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: to leave the city and go somewhere with some space

401
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 2: and go somewhere that felt healthier. I guess I've never

402
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: loved cities ever. I never I never would have imagined

403
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 2: living in cities as long as I did, but it

404
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 2: was just useful, you know. But I found I wasn't

405
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: using Los Angeles for it's you know, I guess, for

406
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: this city aspects of it. And so we went to

407
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: a friend's wedding in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and my

408
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: other half Chris, just ten minutes in, was like we

409
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: should live here. I was like, I'm so down. So

410
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: we just in four months we first sight we saw,

411
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: we were like, this is it, and we just we

412
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 2: did it again, packed off and just left and love

413
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 2: it there. It's really great.

414
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Speaker 1: So how long have you been living in Santa Fe.

415
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: I've been there about four years.

416
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Speaker 1: And how close to town. There's a downtown in Santa Fe.

417
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the plaza.

418
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: Right, and it becomes pretty rural pretty fast.

419
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Speaker 2: Oh for sure.

420
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Speaker 1: How far from downtown do you live?

421
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: So we're like ten minutes drive, but we're out in

422
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,959
Speaker 2: an arroio and it's it feels extremely rural where you

423
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 2: can't hear traffic where we are, and our neighbors are

424
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: pretty far away, and it's it's definitely a secluded life.

425
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 2: It's an I love it. I'm very happy to be somewhere. Sorry,

426
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: there's a child in the room next door. Very very

427
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: happy to be somewhere where I feel completely enveloped in

428
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 2: nature and not urban madness.

429
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: Okay, But as an artist, there's an issue of inspiration. Now,

430
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: you could be sitting at home and reading a book

431
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: or looking at the wall and getting inspiration, but certainly

432
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 1: when you live in a city you're encountering more so

433
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: do you find you have just as much inspiration the

434
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: same kind or different inspiration living in New Mexico.

435
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 2: It's really funny because I thought that I worried about that,

436
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: and you know, inspiration is for sure directly correlated with

437
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: the input that you're giving yourself and you know your environment.

438
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 2: And I remember my good friend Tim Smith, who's an

439
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: amazing dude. He built the Eden Project in the UK,

440
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: which is a music venue but also this incredible environmental center.

441
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: But he was in the music business in his early life.

442
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 2: But he said that when I moved to Venice Beach,

443
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: he was going to buy me a roller blind of Hackney.

444
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 2: He said, when I'm in my studio, I've got pulled

445
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 2: down the roller blind and just see something horrible. Not

446
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: that Hackney's horrible, Hackney's very nice then, but something gritty,

447
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: you know. And actually Venice Beach was gritty, certainly gritty

448
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: enough as it turned out. And I think what I've

449
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: gravitated to, certainly as I've got older, and I'm sure

450
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 2: this is not unusual, is you know, one of the

451
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: very deeply inspirational figures of New Mexico and Santa Fe

452
00:27:54,440 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: is Georgia O'Keeffe. And I've been very very inspired by

453
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 2: her legacy. And the museum in town is fantastic. It's

454
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: a it's such a fantastic owed to her, and it's

455
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: very alive. It feels very very much kind of like

456
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: a living museum. And what I love about it is

457
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: just the rebellion in her art, the rebellion in the

458
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 2: way that she lived her life. You know, her partner

459
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 2: Alfred is it Stiglitz? Is that that right? I can't

460
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: remember his last name, the gallerist anyway, who was her partner.

461
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: There's this beautiful letter in the Georgia O'Keefe Museum and

462
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: it says, Georgia, you finally have what you always wanted,

463
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: a ranch of your own. And it's ghost ranch where

464
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: they actually do music as well. They have gigs up there.

465
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 2: And I just love the fact that this guy understood

466
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: that what she really wanted was solitude. And the two

467
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: things that I've always needed to write songs is solitude

468
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: and a view. And I think it doesn't really matter

469
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: where that is. But having said that, my songwriting is rarer.

470
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: It's not as prolific as it was. And I'm looking at,

471
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: you know, writing a new album after this twenty twenty

472
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: aniversary re release, and it is somewhat it's somewhat unsettling,

473
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: you know, not writing all the time, and there's there's

474
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,239
Speaker 2: the constant sort of conflict if am I too am

475
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: I just too happy? Am I too? At peace? Does?

476
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: Does music, and music has always come through a therapeutic

477
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: purging of difficulty, and it's always been personal for me.

478
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: It's never been kind of big statements about the world.

479
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 2: So it's an interesting point in my life where I

480
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: have to I have to, really I'm a big believer

481
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: that there's you when you make a record. It's got

482
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: because you have to make a record. You have to

483
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 2: have something to say when you make a record, and

484
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: so I really have to work out what I want

485
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: to say now because I'm not it's not obvious.

486
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: So what have you learned about love? Marrying the band member,

487
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: having a realization he was the wrong one, finding the

488
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: guy in the dog park? What are the insights here?

489
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: Oh, myriads of myriads. I think one of the things

490
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: I've learned I learn a lot from Chris all the time,

491
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: which is why I love being best friends with him

492
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: and being with him. He's he has no problem challenging ideas,

493
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: challenging behavior, which is great for me because I can

494
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: be I can be a petulant little shit if I

495
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: want to be, and it's great having a partner doesn't

496
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: put up with that. I think the thing that I've

497
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: learned most with him or certainly one of the things

498
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: that is most profound was this idea that you will

499
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: always have your own house, and that person spiritually and

500
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: that person and emotionally, that person will always have their house,

501
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: and then you will have a shared house. But I

502
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: think it's always good to keep your shed, to keep

503
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: your personal shed. And I think what I learned with Chris,

504
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: both of us had gone through a lot of personal

505
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: work by the time we met each other, which was awesome.

506
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: So we didn't need each other in that way, and

507
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: we weren't looking for a relationship to fill an empty

508
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: corner of our shed. We were meeting each other to

509
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: make a new house. And what I really learned was

510
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: i'd sort of been fed, I guess, just you know,

511
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: from the ether, fed this idea that you should share

512
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: everything with your partner, you know, And I just think

513
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: that's not true at all. I think that there's there's

514
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: there's a lot of behavior, there's a lot of kind

515
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: of reactionary behavior that comes out that has nothing to

516
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: do with that other person but can but can have

517
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: a negative effect on them. And so I think that

518
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: was something that was really interesting for me. Just go, oh,

519
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: that's my ship. I need to sort that out. It's

520
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: really I need to. It's basically the metaphor I like is,

521
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: do not get dog shit on your shoe and walk

522
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: into your house. Clean your shoes before you go in.

523
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: So he's living in New Mexico. What does his life

524
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: look like?

525
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: His life looks very different than it was. So he

526
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: was he was an art major. He was he was

527
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: possibly going to be a you know, he could have

528
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: been a pro baseball player. He loved baseball. And it's

529
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: amazing that I've done the music for Clueless, the musical

530
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: in London, and his life was clueless. So he grew

531
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: up in the valley grievously Bush had the house party

532
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: where like the cops and the helicopters turned up. But

533
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 2: he grew up playing baseball and unbelievably, one of his

534
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: childhood best friends was t J. Jackson. So Tito Jackson

535
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: was his baseball coach. When he wasn't on tour, he'd

536
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: like gone back and teased the baseball. In the end,

537
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 2: he decided it wasn't it wasn't something that he could.

538
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: He wanted to just dedicate his life to which was

539
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,479
Speaker 2: what was going to be. So he ended up an

540
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 2: art major. Up in San Luis, ABIs Bowl and then

541
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: Long Beach. I think he was art college and he

542
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: walked past the martial arts gym and saw people doing

543
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: jiu jitsu and he walked in and that was that.

544
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: He was just completely addicted. And so he was the

545
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 2: head coach at the Gracie Academy in Beverly Hills for

546
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: about fifteen years and then kind of peeled off to

547
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: do his own thing. And then of course COVID happened,

548
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: which was not good for martial arts and music where

549
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: everybody is in close contact and in the room together.

550
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 2: And so he's working on a new more art arts

551
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: based martial arts project at the moment, which is really exciting.

552
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: But he's yeah, big pivot whilst also holding down the

553
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: fort in the beautiful high desert with four dogs.

554
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: And Hapapi economics, you know where seems like you're making

555
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 1: more bread than he is.

556
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

557
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: Attention to the relationship, it.

558
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: Really doesn't, It really doesn't. It's I find I think

559
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: it would with certain couples, you know. And I find

560
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: it's much more exciting for me to do what I

561
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: love doing. Go out. I've got a great job, I

562
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 2: make a great living. And then afford him the space

563
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: to really follow something he's passionate about. And what he

564
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: wants to do is going to be a real community

565
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: give back project, and so I don't want to share.

566
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: It's his place to talk about it. But it's exciting

567
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: to sort of feel like a team in that way

568
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: that I'm going out and doing the music, doing the gigs,

569
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: make the money, and then I love what he's planning,

570
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: and it's it feels like putting our team energy into

571
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,959
Speaker 2: something that can that has the potential to be really

572
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 2: great for other people.

573
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: Now you're not married to him, correct, Now, what's the

574
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: thinking there?

575
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, the thing is that we

576
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 2: call each other and wife because I'm just I'm too

577
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,479
Speaker 2: old to have a boyfriend. But it's just I'm too old.

578
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 2: It feels too weird to say my boyfriend. So I

579
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: don't think either of us feel at all strongly about

580
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: you know, it would just it would just be for

581
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: practical legal stuff that makes life a bit easier when

582
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: you're married. But we're not in any hurry to do that.

583
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: We're very happy.

584
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: Well, I've been with my girlfriend for twenty years and

585
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: we're not married. She's been married twice. I've been married once,

586
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: and after being divorced once, I certainly don't want to

587
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: go through that again.

588
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel that way too.

589
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 1: Even though divorced. Yeah.

590
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it will fucking put you off, that's for sure.

591
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 2: It's a it's a horrible it's a horrible process to

592
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: go through. You it's so unpleasant. So yes, I think

593
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 2: avoiding that is a very good pro of not doing

594
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 2: it again. But yeah, it's I don't think it's massively

595
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: important to either.

596
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: So you're rex he moves out other than lawyers, do

597
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: you have any more contact?

598
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 2: Oh, it's just grim. Like we had to do mediation

599
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 2: and like get in a room and oh it was gross.

600
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 2: It was terrible, And that the terrible part of it

601
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: was that I was faced with, like how bad the

602
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: decision had been to marry that guy. I had to like,

603
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: you know, seeing the worst side of it because he's

604
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 2: extremely hurt that I've left. And then you see a

605
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: very different side of somebody, especially when they're trying to

606
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: get half your money. You know, that's just a it's

607
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: a horrible it's a horrible thing to witness in someone

608
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: that you spent ten years with.

609
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: You say, he ripped you off, in that.

610
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: In my opinion, I'm sure he would he wouldn't use

611
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: those words. He in his words, he wanted what he

612
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: was entitled to, and it was it was very painful

613
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: for me that side of it, just feeling like it

614
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: was just grossly unfair.

615
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: So looking back, when you made the decision to marry him,

616
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: you go on at this point that you had made

617
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 1: prior to this lightning bulb coming down. You made all

618
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: these bad decisions. So what was the decision to marry

619
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: him in retrospect, what was going through your brain? And

620
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: why was that bad?

621
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: I think I don't blame myself for it, and I

622
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: don't I really understand what I was needing, And what

623
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: I was needing was something grounded and something reliable and

624
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,959
Speaker 2: something that felt safe, which ironically ended up not being

625
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: that at all. But at that time in my life,

626
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: i'd moved down to London, so we met before my

627
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: record came out, and I'd moved down to London, and

628
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 2: I just needed something to hold on to while this

629
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: life was this hurricane was going on, where I was

630
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: becoming well known, I was having a multi platinum record,

631
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: I was touring the world. One of the things, one

632
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: of the really discombobulating things about being successful was that

633
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 2: I just hadn't even occurred to me that I would

634
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: be a boss. You know, I just wanted to. I

635
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: really wanted to be one of the guys in the band,

636
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: and I wasn't and I couldn't be that, and so

637
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 2: I was a bit allergic to taking responsibility of being

638
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: the boss of a business. And it felt very lonely

639
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: being the turn, you know, being being the queen bee,

640
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: I was different from everybody else. People you know, had

641
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: to kind of behave when they spoke to me, and

642
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: I had to be like literally chaperoned everywhere, like a

643
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 2: little fucking golden eggs. So nothing happened to me. But

644
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: I just sometimes I would just like sneak off at

645
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: the hotel just to have a walk, so there wasn't

646
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: anyone with me. I mean, it was so suffocating sometimes,

647
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: but you understand, it's just like nothing, you can't let

648
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: anything happen to me, because you know, I'm the egg

649
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: and so I needed to know. And he was a

650
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 2: very straight laced dude, so I just knew that it

651
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: was I think it felt like it was holding onto

652
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 2: something that would stop me just completely going off the rails,

653
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: which now I look back and I think I should

654
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: have just let myself do that. That was, you know,

655
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 2: it would have been a lot easier and cheaper.

656
00:40:53,480 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: What other bad decisions did you realize you made.

657
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: That's a good question when I actually have to list them.

658
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 2: I feel like it was a perhaps a kind of

659
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:22,720
Speaker 2: attitude to way of life where I think I had

660
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: fallen into this weird trap of convention, where I built

661
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: this life that was allowing me to live an artistic

662
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: life and live a free life, and I just sort

663
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 2: of all these small choices had made it feel extremely conventional,

664
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: and really underneath it, I'm not a very conventional person,

665
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: and I don't and I find that convention oppressive. And

666
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: I think my nurture and going back to, you know,

667
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: growing up as an adult kid, I think my parents

668
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: were very straight laced, and you know, my dad was

669
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 2: a physicist, my mom was a teacher. They didn't kind

670
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: of go to bars or it was all dinner parties

671
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 2: with other scientists coming to the high Sea. It's basically

672
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: kind of square, you know, academic, and I think that

673
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: that was overriding my my wildness, and so I just

674
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: ended up feeling like someone had clipped my wings when

675
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: I was in a cage.

676
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're talking like your roots are being responsible,

677
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: and most artists, not all of them, but a lot

678
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: of them are irresponsible. So now that you're conscious and

679
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: you're in charge, how do you deal with that balance?

680
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: You know, I would say there many artists have to

681
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: be an artist because they could work at the seven

682
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: eleven because they couldn't show up on time.

683
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: That's might be able to do the work.

684
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so how do you make sure you don't clip

685
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: your wings going forward?

686
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: It's a great question, I think. You know, during that

687
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 2: time in twenty twelve when I moved to America, I

688
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: thought I was going to give up. I thought I

689
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: was going to give up music, not music completely, I

690
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 2: thought I was going to give up being an artist.

691
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: I felt like I'm done. I don't want to be

692
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: front facing, I don't want to be in the public

693
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: realm anymore. I'm so bored of this, like hamster wheel,

694
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: of making a record, working with whoever the big producer is,

695
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: trying to compete on radio, doing your promo, doing your tour.

696
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: And you know, the whole reason I wanted to be

697
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: a musician was I hate repetition, and there I was

698
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:59,479
Speaker 2: in absolute feeling of repetition. And then what I realized was, yes,

699
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: you can alway, you can find reputation in anything that

700
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: you're doing. You know it's on you, but it's on you.

701
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 2: It's on you to not make what you're doing repetitive

702
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: because you're in charge. You're making the decisions about what

703
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 2: you're doing and how you're doing it. And I was

704
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: allowing myself to be made part of some machinery that

705
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: I never intended to be part of. I don't want

706
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: to be part of. But it was like, how else

707
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 2: do you do this? How else do you release records

708
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: and have a tour if you're not part of this machinery? Right?

709
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: And so I thought I was going to completely walk

710
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: away from it, and I got accepted onto the Sundance

711
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: Film Institute's Film Composer's Lab, right be the great Robert Redford.

712
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: And I don't think I wasn't very good at doing

713
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: film music because I'm too much into melody and it's

714
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 2: too doesn't fit my writing perfectly, but it was it

715
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: was extremely freeing to go and learn something else. And

716
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: one of my tutors actually was Alan Silvestri the did

717
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 2: the music for Back to the Futures. That was extremely

718
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,439
Speaker 2: exciting for me. It was what was really important about

719
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: that time was that I got the hooks out and

720
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 2: I knew I didn't have to do it, and that

721
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 2: was that was the really important level up was under

722
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 2: was really really understanding that I didn't have to do

723
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: it and I could walk away and I could just

724
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: have a different life. And I still always just have

725
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 2: these fantasies of just disappearing. I'm sure lots of musicians

726
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: have this, where you just it would be so great

727
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 2: to just walk away and not be seen again. I

728
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 2: remember reading this story about Madeline Peru. Are you familiar

729
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 2: with Madelin Prairiue. She's a she's a she's a really

730
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 2: interesting French kind of pop classical artist. But she's quite

731
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: a wild child, I think, and she just and I

732
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: just remember reading this story that she just disappeared and

733
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: no one knew where she was, and I just thought,

734
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: oh my god, that's so cool, it's so great.

735
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: Way, let's slow it down a little bit. What is

736
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: the appeal of disappearing.

737
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: I suppose the that the freedom, it's the wildness, it's

738
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: the freedom that you're not dictated to. No one's telling

739
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: you you've got to go to work, no one's, no one's,

740
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 2: no one has ownership of your movements and of your decisions.

741
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 2: And I think being an artist, I mean a musician, Uh,

742
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: it's it's it's it's very extreme, you know, being a

743
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: touring musician, it's all encompassing. You go on tour, it's

744
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven, You're living in a little sardine

745
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: can with six blokes that you end up spending more

746
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: time with them than they do with their wives, you know.

747
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 2: So I've chosen vocation that really is so often it's

748
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: just all or nothing. There's not really a balance to

749
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: be had. It doesn't exist a lot of the time.

750
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 2: And so I think it's that, I think it's just

751
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: a kind of a fantasy of just I'm just gonna leave.

752
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 2: I'm just not gonna do it.

753
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: Okay, obviously, if you were to do that, whether you

754
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: did it or not, they're economic issues involved. The artists

755
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: has done much better, the business is much more sophisticated

756
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: than it was fifty years ago. But you obviously had

757
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: to pay your rex a certain amount. You've had us

758
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: certain level of success. How are you doing financially doing good.

759
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 2: I feel very lucky in this I feel, I have

760
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 2: to say, I feel like on many levels and all

761
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: the way through my career I felt like an anomaly

762
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 2: in a very which I'm very grateful for. You know,

763
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 2: even that first breakthrough, I was just like a busker

764
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: from Scotland and the album was like super stripped back

765
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: with no bells and whistles. I really didn't have a

766
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: record company breathing down my neck telling me to take

767
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: my clothes off or dress this way or look for

768
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 2: this way. They weren't telling me to do that. They

769
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 2: were really just if anything. The second record was difficult

770
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 2: because I wanted to lean into the rock star stuff

771
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: and they were like, we want to keep you the

772
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 2: girl next door, just keep wearing your jeans, and I

773
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: was like, no, I want to try on some sparkly shit.

774
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: And it's all felt very you. It's all felt really unique,

775
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: which has been which I'm really grateful for. And I

776
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 2: think where I'm at twenty years later is I'm very

777
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: I'm proud that I can look back at every record

778
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 2: and I didn't do what was expected and I changed

779
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: up my really like seriously changed up how each record sounds.

780
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 2: It's that I've never repeated myself. I don't think at

781
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: all with what I've produced, and I think that now

782
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 2: is feels like my purpose is just to keep Beck

783
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: was a big inspiration to me when I was young

784
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 2: when I saw Loser on MTV. You know, I'd grown

785
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: up watching Top of the Pops and I saw you know,

786
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 2: Kim Wilde. I thought was great. I loved her, but

787
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 2: in general all the pop stuff, I loved the songs,

788
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 2: but it never made me want to be a musician.

789
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: And it was when I saw Loser on MTV and

790
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 2: I was just like, holy shit, that sound it is

791
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 2: amazing and looks amazing, and he's weird and he looks

792
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: like a boss, he looks homeless. It's like, how is

793
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 2: this working? And that was sort of my journey into

794
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: wanting to be a musician. That like kind of fifteen sixteen.

795
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: So if you decided to go to a desert island today,

796
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: do you have enough money and enough royalties or are

797
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: you working for a living?

798
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 2: I'm still working for a living, but because I've it's

799
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 2: because of the lifestyle I've chosen. I have a beautiful

800
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: house in Santa Fe and I have a very comfortable

801
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: lifestyle and that I'm working to keep that. But if

802
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: I had to move to a desert island, I would

803
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: be I would be fine because I would not have

804
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:47,959
Speaker 2: to pay for pro paine.

805
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: Okay, so you know you're a woman in the music

806
00:50:54,800 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: business and you're not a pop act. That's a category

807
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: into itself. On the rock side, more art to side,

808
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 1: we certainly had the me Too movement starting like seven

809
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: years ago, but whatever the amplification, those issues always existed.

810
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 1: So what it's been like for you being a woman

811
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: in the music.

812
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 2: Business again apparently an anomaly. I really feel like I

813
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 2: have come up against very very little sexism in my career.

814
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: The sexism I have come up against has certainly been

815
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: on the business side rather than the touring side. On

816
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: the touring side, I've had a great time, and I

817
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 2: feel like the men I've worked with, if anything, have

818
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: been polit and better behaved because they're working with a woman.

819
00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: And I've also always I've always conducted myself as a

820
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: musician first. I don't feel like I sort of trade

821
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: on the on the fact that I'm female. I'm very

822
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: much in Chrissy Hines camp here where it's like you're

823
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: a musician, you happen to be female and business side,

824
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 2: I think the thing that's been most frustrating is there's

825
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: a lack of confidence in female artists compared to male artists,

826
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 2: certainly in my maybe not in kind of the super

827
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 2: pop realm or the hip hop an urban R and

828
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: B realm that's I think it's very different kind of

829
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 2: culture culturally, but certainly in indie rock folk music, I

830
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: will be playing a venue that someone who's really on

831
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 2: par with me in terms of style and success is

832
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 2: getting offered a bigger guarantee than I am, or I'm

833
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 2: not being given a very high building on a festival lineup,

834
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 2: which when really the data does not suggest that I

835
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,720
Speaker 2: should be here, I should be there, and that feels

836
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 2: like it's due to being a female artist.

837
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: Let's just go back to your time of epiphany and

838
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: just go back to the adoption for a minute. So

839
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 1: what point did you search for your roots in your

840
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: birth parents?

841
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 2: So I was twenty three, So I didn't get my

842
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 2: record deal till I was twenty nine. I was twenty three,

843
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 2: I'm unemployed, want to be a musician living in Edinburgh,

844
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 2: or actually I was still living in Saint Andrews hanging

845
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 2: out with a bunch of very cool in the kind

846
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: of punk folk musicians called the Fence Collective. In Saint Andrews,

847
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 2: the head head folk punk was a guy called King

848
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 2: Creoso Kenny Anderson, who kind of started that he was

849
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 2: the Goudy of our little town, just making really strange,

850
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 2: great outsider music. And I watched a brilliant movie called

851
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 2: Secrets and Lies by Mike Lee, and it's so batshit crazy.

852
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 2: It's this black adopted woman who tries to find her

853
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: mom and she it's Brenda Blefflin, who's an amazing actress.

854
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 2: And she goes to the doorstep of this woman's house

855
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: and she says, I think you're my mom, and she

856
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 2: looks at her and she goes, Darling, I don't think

857
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 2: that's possible, you know, And then she suddenly remembers and

858
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 2: she goes, oh my god, oh my god, I do remember,

859
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 2: you know. It's just and it's so crazy. What happens

860
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 2: in that movie is so funny and dark and awful.

861
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: And I was like, I could handle that. I really

862
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 2: think I could handle that, And so I started looking.

863
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: I sent My parents had always been very gracious and

864
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 2: very very supportive, so we'll always we'll always stand by

865
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 2: if you want to find out. And I I remember calling,

866
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 2: I had a number, I had more information than I

867
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 2: should have had. Actually, they got given like some a

868
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 2: lot of information about who they were. And I couldn't

869
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 2: find my birth mother, my biological mother, so I sent

870
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 2: I found out that her brother was in the army.

871
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 2: So I sent a letter to the kind of army

872
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 2: headquarters in Scotland, and then forgot about it and didn't

873
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 2: hear anything back. And then there was a number for

874
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 2: my biological father in Ireland, and I called the number

875
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,439
Speaker 2: and this older woman answered, and I was like, holy shit,

876
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 2: this is my grandmother. And I I didn't know if

877
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 2: he told her. I didn't know if they knew, you know.

878
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: So I just had to say, this is a friend

879
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: of John's from the seventies. And she was obviously like

880
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 2: totally suspicions that we don't hear from him very much.

881
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 2: And that was that. And then six months later I

882
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 2: got I was in my little house on the Experts

883
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:18,919
Speaker 2: with Saint Andrew's the phone it was what a WAE

884
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 2: line phone, and the phone went and funnily enough, the

885
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 2: guy said, is that Kate I said, yes, he goes,

886
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 2: it's your uncle Bob, and I said, I don't have

887
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 2: an uncle Bob. He goes, well you do now, And

888
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: then I was able to meet with her and she

889
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: lived in Edinburgh, very very nearby, and it was what

890
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 2: it was a really wild experience. And she's tiny, she's

891
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 2: half Chinese, half Scottish. We kind of look alike. But

892
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 2: what I found out in later years, we're not that

893
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 2: long ago twenty nineteen, when Long Lost Family, which is

894
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,439
Speaker 2: a TV show in the UK, I could never find

895
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 2: my biological dad and they said, you want us to

896
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 2: find him and be part of the program, and I

897
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, do I really want to

898
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 2: do this on camera? But then they said, look, we've

899
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 2: got access that general public don't have. You also get

900
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 2: a social worker that basically a therapist that anybody involved

901
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: with the show can call for the rest of their

902
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 2: life if it's to do with the program. And I

903
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 2: was like, man, I wish I had this support when

904
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 2: I did it the first time round, and I thought,

905
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 2: it's probably the last chance I'm going to get to

906
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 2: find out who he is, and so I said yes,

907
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 2: And then it turns out I look really like my

908
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: biological dad, and he was an irishman with a great voice,

909
00:57:53,560 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 2: and sadly he passed by the time I did that program.

910
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 2: But they said, they said, off camera, you know he's past,

911
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 2: really sorry, but we'd like to wrap things up, you know,

912
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 2: on camera. So we did this like shoot and the

913
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 2: guy presenting Mickey Campbell, he's quite a well known presenter.

914
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 2: He's also adopted in the UK. He just goes, there

915
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 2: is something we didn't tell you. And I was like,

916
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 2: oh my god, what And he goes, You've got two

917
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: sisters and they're within two and three years of you

918
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 2: in age, and they's been living fifteen miles away from

919
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 2: you when you were growing up, and so he'd had

920
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 2: kids with someone else very soon after. And we are

921
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 2: so alike, and they're so great, and we've got a

922
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: fan we've got a fantastic relationship, which is just and

923
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 2: I had no sisters growing up, so it's that was

924
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 2: a wild ride. But it was so crazy because of

925
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 2: course I knew I might have siblings, you know, they

926
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 2: had no idea, no idea. Turns out he like had

927
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 2: kept a baby picture of me and his wallet, and

928
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 2: you know, he was he was he had wanted to

929
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: keep I think, and it was my mom just wasn't

930
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 2: able to My biological mother just wasn't able to do it.

931
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 2: But the program called them and they just have to

932
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 2: sort of give them the information slowly to let them keep,

933
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 2: you know, emotionally, keep up. They said, we think we

934
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 2: have reason to believe you might have a sister that

935
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 2: you don't know you have. And she's Scottish and she's

936
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 2: a musician. And they put the phone down and Chaven

937
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 2: and my older sister said to let all my younger sister.

938
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 2: So I'm the oldest. She's middle and she said it's

939
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 2: Katie Tunstall and Mell was just like, what are you

940
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 2: talking about? Don't be ridiculous, Like this is insane. And

941
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 2: they had my album in the house and she went

942
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 2: and grabbed my album, grabbed a picture of their dad

943
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 2: and just went look and lol went, oh my god,

944
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 2: they look exactly the same. And so that's just been

945
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 2: a massive joy. But I'm very lucky, because you know,

946
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 2: these things can be pretty tough, but it's it's really

947
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 2: been a lovely knee chapter of my life.

948
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: Just going to whatever happened with your mother and going forward,

949
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 1: what was the meeting like? And then what happened thereafter.

950
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 2: It was it was really bizarre. It was really strange

951
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 2: because I'm I. You don't know how to do these

952
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 2: things right? You did, There's no rule book for it.

953
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 2: And she'd asked if I would like to stay with

954
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 2: her and did I did I stay the night? I don't,

955
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: I can't. I definitely went over there and like had

956
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 2: dinner at their house and my family we sat at

957
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 2: the table every night six o'clock. Mum made dinner. We'd

958
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 2: sit around, they'd make us talk about what school was like,

959
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: and like we'd have a family dinner. And then I

960
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 2: went over to my biological mom's house and we had

961
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 2: we got we had dinner in front of the TV,

962
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 2: which I'd never done, and it just felt so alien

963
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 2: and so weird. It was like just being so transported

964
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 2: into someone else's completely different family life. And I had

965
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 2: a younger half brother, James, great guy, he was about eleven,

966
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: and so we were sort of there eating, sort of

967
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 2: trying to pretend that this was like normal, this like

968
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: family dinner, and it was just so weird, and it was.

969
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 2: It was, It was but wonderful. It was also like,

970
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 2: you know, you're in all just going what I was

971
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 2: inside that person who I've just met, and it was

972
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 2: a very it was a difficult journey for a good

973
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 2: few years. It was a hard time, and I'm really

974
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 2: grateful that we overcame difficulties and that we're we're not

975
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 2: in we're not we're not close, but we're in touch.

976
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 2: You know, we'll message each other now and then. But

977
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 2: it was definitely like it was definitely hard on my parents.

978
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 2: You know, they were understandableving nervous and afraid for me

979
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,919
Speaker 2: that it would be hurtful or it would be disastrous,

980
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 2: you know, and more even more difficult that I was.

981
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 2: I then went on to become well known, and so

982
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 2: I was always just very I knew I had to

983
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: be quite careful around all of it. And it wasn't

984
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 2: just about me. It was about my family as well.

985
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: You don't have children, Is that because you didn't want them,

986
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: or because you're too busy being an artist, or because

987
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: the adoption, or because of whatever.

988
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 2: All of the above. You nailed the main three. I

989
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 2: think when going when I was in kind of boring

990
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 2: Wikipedia page life that chapter, I never questioned it. I

991
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 2: was just like, yeah, of course, of course I'm gonna

992
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 2: have kids. That's what you do, you know. And then

993
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 2: got my married and my ex was very keen to

994
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 2: have kids, and that was when it was just like,

995
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 2: oh shit, I've never really spent time deeply thinking about this,

996
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 2: which one should and one should before one gets married

997
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 2: also and about what you both want, and it was

998
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 2: just I was trying to keep it down and try,

999
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 2: you know. We tried to have children, and thankfully I

1000
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 2: didn't get pregnant. And I think in another life, if

1001
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 2: I'd gone through that epiphany I talked about of like

1002
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 2: really sorting my shit out and really making peace with

1003
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 2: the adoption staff, and if I found all of that sooner,

1004
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 2: and if I'd met someone but I did want to

1005
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 2: have kids with, I think I would have probably really

1006
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. And I but I just I really, in

1007
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 2: my heart, being honest with you, I don't think I

1008
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 2: would have wanted to be a musician at the same

1009
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 2: time as being a mum. I think I would have

1010
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 2: just wanted to be a mother. And I think that

1011
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 2: that I think that that that was a choice too.

1012
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 2: I was just like, you know, I feel like what

1013
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 2: I do creatively has a uniqueness to it, and I

1014
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 2: think I've got something to offer, and I think that

1015
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 2: it feels like a really positive purpose in the world.

1016
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 2: I have a very I have a very positive feedback

1017
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 2: from other human beings for what I do and what

1018
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 2: I share. And I just I didn't feel like I

1019
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 2: wanted to stop doing that and I didn't want to

1020
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 2: do I felt like I would not be good at

1021
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 2: doing both at the same time.

1022
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: So for those of us living in America, when we

1023
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: think of Saint Andrews, we think of golf. Yeah, is

1024
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: that something if you live in St. Andrews you think about?

1025
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 2: So growing up in Saint Andrew's I was slightly I

1026
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 2: was a tomboy and quite a rebellious kid, and the

1027
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: only women who were allowed into the RNA, the royal

1028
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 2: and ancient golf club in Saint Andrew's with the bar

1029
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: maide and the cleaner, and so I was like, well,

1030
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 2: that seems like a bunch of bullshit. So I was

1031
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 2: very like anti that scene because it just seemed stuck

1032
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 2: up and sexist. And I just I didn't like the

1033
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 2: boys club thing. Obviously it's changed now where you know,

1034
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 2: it's much much more equality in that sense, but it

1035
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 2: just never ever appealed to me. And I went on tour.

1036
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 2: Two weeks ago. I had a really great bus driver

1037
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,439
Speaker 2: called Dino, and he took me for my first ever

1038
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 2: golf lesson. We went to Top Golf and it was awesome.

1039
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 2: I had a great time. So my dad would always

1040
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 2: take us to the Putt and Green. There was really

1041
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 2: cool litt putt and green called the Himalayas. It's sort

1042
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 2: of a bit like a mini you know, crazy mini

1043
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 2: golf where it's all these hills and you've got to

1044
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 2: get into the hole. And so I love that, but

1045
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 2: I was I was never interested in in adult golf.

1046
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 2: And I feel like maybe turning fifty, maybe it's just Jeanette.

1047
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: It's a genetic, DNA human thing that you just.

1048
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,360
Speaker 1: To beat a dead horse. It's like, if I'm going

1049
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: to Saint Andrews, is it there's going to be a

1050
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 1: sign home of golf or people are going to say, oh,

1051
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 1: that's what we're famous for. Or if you live there,

1052
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 1: go yeah there's a golf course. But yeah, some people play.

1053
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 2: It's a big deal. It's a big deal people people

1054
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 2: are very proud of it and a lot of there's

1055
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 2: a lot of local great golfers and do you play.

1056
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 1: You know, I played as a kid. I don't play anymore.

1057
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I would, I would, I would. I would

1058
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 2: be persuaded man to have a go.

1059
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you end up going to Kent?

1060
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? So the school system in the UK, the Scottish

1061
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,040
Speaker 2: school system is different from England. So in England you

1062
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 2: do what's called a levels and it's two years of

1063
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 2: kind of intense like three or four subjects. And in

1064
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 2: Scotland we had a different system, which was hires, which

1065
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 2: is less intense and you do more subjects. So I

1066
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 2: did five hires. I did art, music, French, history and English.

1067
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 2: And I was young for my year anyway, but I

1068
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 2: basically was able to graduate high school at seventeen. It

1069
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 2: was on my seventeenth birthday and I was really really

1070
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 2: ready to leave school. I didn't want to be in

1071
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 2: high school anymore, and I wanted to take a year

1072
01:07:55,640 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 2: out before going to university. And you know, there's all

1073
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 2: these amazing things that you can do on your gap

1074
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 2: year as we call it, but a lot of it

1075
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 2: was you had to be eighteen and I didn't want

1076
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 2: to go to UNI at seventeen. And my mom found

1077
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 2: this advert for this this organization called the English Speaking

1078
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 2: Union who sponsor kind of kids from America to come

1079
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 2: to Britain and vice versa, and I just kind of

1080
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 2: went for this interview and I feel like I was

1081
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 2: like the special the special kid that got to go

1082
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:33,000
Speaker 2: because all the other kids were like, you know, into

1083
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:38,680
Speaker 2: kind of politics and it was very academic, and I

1084
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 2: felt like this sort of drama kid who got given

1085
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 2: the special arts award and got put. I got sent

1086
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 2: to Kent for a year, and it was it was

1087
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:50,520
Speaker 2: really an amazing experience.

1088
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:56,640
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm from Connecticut, are you. Yeah, that's northwestern Connecticut,

1089
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 1: which by Connecticut standards is the Boonies. Yeah, tradition prep

1090
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: school is sort of singular in that it's upper class.

1091
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, white. Yeah, so Ken wasn't It wasn't like

1092
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:17,799
Speaker 2: overwhelmingly white, because there was these really it was really interesting.

1093
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 2: There was these fact like groups of Chinese students, of

1094
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 2: Korean students, of black students, and it was actually like

1095
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:31,680
Speaker 2: really quite segregate, like itself segregating into these sort of

1096
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 2: little gangs. And everyone got on great, but there was

1097
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 2: it was noticeable kind of groups of different students, but

1098
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 2: it was crazy rich, like they've got their own indoor

1099
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 2: ice hockey rink they've got on indoor swimming pool. I

1100
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:53,680
Speaker 2: like studied photography, development and conducting and ceramics. You know,

1101
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 2: it was insane.

1102
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 1: But how did you fit in?

1103
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 2: I fit in pretty well. I mean I've never been

1104
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 2: I've never been a I was never a kid at

1105
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 2: school that had like a clique. I've never liked that.

1106
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 2: I've never been drawn to that. I like having different

1107
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 2: I like knowing lots of different people in different places.

1108
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 2: Which suits you suits me well as a musician. And

1109
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 2: I formed my first band at Kent School and my

1110
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 2: guitarist was he was a pothead and wanted to call

1111
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 2: wanted to call our band THHC. And I said, we

1112
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 2: can't do we can't do that. So we were called

1113
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 2: the Happy Campers as Code and it was just, you know,

1114
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:49,479
Speaker 2: it was a very very safe, sheltered environment and I

1115
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:52,639
Speaker 2: would just that was when I started organizing my first gigs.

1116
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 2: It was really fun.

1117
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 1: Okay, what does the average American not understand about Scotland?

1118
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 2: I don't can I can I use terrible language. Of course,

1119
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 2: they don't understand the word cunt. The reason it sounds

1120
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 2: so bad in America is because you pronounce the t.

1121
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 2: It just it makes it so much more offensive. It's

1122
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:31,520
Speaker 2: like so much more biting, but it's actually an absolute

1123
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 2: term of endearment in Scotland. You're a great cunt. I'm

1124
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 2: good friends with I've become good friends with Craig Ferguson,

1125
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,839
Speaker 2: and we both as Scottish people now living in America,

1126
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 2: we just love having this conversation. Just like the lack

1127
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 2: of understanding of how of how endearing it can be.

1128
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 1: Okay, I go to Canada frequently and I know a

1129
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 1: lot of Canadians. Seemingly every Canadian in Los Angeles knows

1130
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 1: every other Canadian. Is it like Scott's Once you come

1131
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 1: to a place, every scott finds each other.

1132
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 2: It can be like that. I mean, Scotland's a really

1133
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:18,720
Speaker 2: small country. It's smaller than Greater London. It's just it's

1134
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 2: incredible to me the musical heritage of that tiny little

1135
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 2: country and the impact and the breadth of genre that

1136
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,480
Speaker 2: that have come out of that country. It's absolutely staggering

1137
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 2: and I can only say it's coming from you know,

1138
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:45,560
Speaker 2: Iceland is similar with its with its music, but Scotland's incredible.

1139
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, everything from the average white band

1140
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 2: to simple minds, the garbage to eurhythmics to I mean,

1141
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 2: on and on and on, you know, just fantastic musical

1142
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 2: legacy and history and current you know, current artists as well,

1143
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:10,400
Speaker 2: really exciting and I it's it's one of the reasons

1144
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:14,480
Speaker 2: I like America is that America just fucking love Scotland.

1145
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 2: They love Scottish stuff. They just want you to just

1146
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:20,360
Speaker 2: like say stuff, just to like say something. Can you

1147
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:22,679
Speaker 2: just say something? I just want to hear you say

1148
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 2: something else, like like what and then because that's brilliant

1149
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,880
Speaker 2: and they just love it. And it's you just feel

1150
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 2: extremely welcomed in the States being Scottish. And yeah, so

1151
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 2: it's you're often put in touch with Scottish people that

1152
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 2: people know and do you know them? I mean sometimes, Okay,

1153
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 2: you finish a kid's school, then what do you do?

1154
01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 2: So I finished at Kent. I my roommate Kent had

1155
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,519
Speaker 2: wanted to introduce me to her hippie friend from Vermont,

1156
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:07,160
Speaker 2: so thinking that I would fall in love with him,

1157
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 2: which I did, and I went off and spent the

1158
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 2: summer in Vermont in a basically on kind of hippie

1159
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:16,360
Speaker 2: commune vibe, you know, the house where his mom had

1160
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:20,679
Speaker 2: the artist mother had like built the house herself and

1161
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:24,759
Speaker 2: we bathed in the pond with like eco friends.

1162
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 1: I went to college Vermont. We had a house in Vermont.

1163
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 1: I gotta ask, we're in Vermont?

1164
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:33,959
Speaker 2: It was. It was near Fairfield, Okay, not far from Burlington,

1165
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:38,679
Speaker 2: twenty twenty minutes for Burlington or something. And so I

1166
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:41,960
Speaker 2: busked a lot in Burlington at that time, and it

1167
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,640
Speaker 2: was great. I loved it. I loved life there. I

1168
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 2: just loved it. I would have stayed forever, but I

1169
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,600
Speaker 2: had to go home and start UNI. And it was

1170
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 2: a huge heartbreak for me. That's where other side of

1171
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 2: the world came from. Huge heartbreak, leaving this guy and

1172
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:00,640
Speaker 2: leaving America. And I just made a I was like,

1173
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,680
Speaker 2: I'm getting myself back to America. I have to get

1174
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 2: back to America.

1175
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 1: Okay, I gotta ask, have you had any contact with

1176
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 1: that guy subsequently going back?

1177
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 2: So I did, right, I did, and I did come

1178
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:16,840
Speaker 2: back and I saw him again and I was just like, oh,

1179
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:18,680
Speaker 2: he's you know, it's not the same. We're not We're

1180
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:24,200
Speaker 2: not young and innocent anymore. And then not that long ago,

1181
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 2: I kind of looked him up and he is a carpenter.

1182
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 2: I guess he's would work whatever, but he's like a married,

1183
01:15:31,439 --> 01:15:33,479
Speaker 2: like kid on the way or had a kid or something.

1184
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 2: And I'd messaged and I said, I'm going to be

1185
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:38,040
Speaker 2: in Vermont and it would be so nice to see you,

1186
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 2: and and he's like, yeah, that would be good. And

1187
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 2: then the time came around where I was going to come.

1188
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 2: It was just on Instagram, right, I was just messaging.

1189
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:49,520
Speaker 2: Time came around to come to Vermont and he he disappeared,

1190
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:54,120
Speaker 2: like his account didn't exist anymore, and our messages had disappeared.

1191
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 2: So I was like, oh, well that was not meant.

1192
01:15:56,320 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 1: To be right. Okay, you go to college or you

1193
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:06,000
Speaker 1: say university where and what's that experience like?

1194
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:11,599
Speaker 2: So I get into It was one of the University

1195
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:14,840
Speaker 2: of London colleges, which is called Royal Holloway and it

1196
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 2: was in near Windsor Castle, so it was not in

1197
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:20,160
Speaker 2: central London, which was really disappointing to me because I

1198
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:22,559
Speaker 2: was not really that interested in going to university. It

1199
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 2: was really just a means to be in London to

1200
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:29,040
Speaker 2: do gigs. I knew from seventeen eighteen that this is

1201
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 2: what I was going to do, but I was studying

1202
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 2: their theater studies program. Which was really really good. They

1203
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 2: have an amazing theater studies program. I did do a

1204
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 2: joint honors with music, but I ended up giving up music.

1205
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:45,320
Speaker 2: It was like doing math. It was dreadful. There was nothing.

1206
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 2: It was just an absolute science class. I was sitting

1207
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 2: in this lecture for Shankirian analysis and it was basically

1208
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:59,479
Speaker 2: this guy who discovered that you could overlay this sort

1209
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:03,800
Speaker 2: of you know so analysis of Renaissance classical music, and

1210
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:06,439
Speaker 2: it was all fit to this thing. And I was like, oh, whoop,

1211
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 2: do do well done? Like what am I doing in

1212
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 2: this class? So I gave the music part up and

1213
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:15,760
Speaker 2: just did the theater studies and it was It was fantastic.

1214
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 2: There was a couple of One of the classes that

1215
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 2: I remember most fondly was I did I did a

1216
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 2: course in camidia de larte, which is the Italian kind

1217
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 2: of original clowning. And I loved that class and I

1218
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 2: loved learning about the role of the clown and the

1219
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:38,600
Speaker 2: traditional role of the clown. And what really stuck with

1220
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 2: me was was that the reason society loves the clown

1221
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 2: is that they feel it's medicinal. They feel such relief

1222
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:55,200
Speaker 2: in watching someone else fail and watching awful things befall

1223
01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 2: someone else. It befalls the clown or the gesture, and

1224
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:04,000
Speaker 2: they don't have to suffer that themselves. But they know

1225
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's not actually happening. They're watching it

1226
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:11,240
Speaker 2: being acted. But I loved that whole idea of the

1227
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:16,240
Speaker 2: service of the clown who has to deal with all

1228
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 2: these terrible things happening to him. And one of the

1229
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:25,639
Speaker 2: one of the exercises that we did was the whole room.

1230
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 2: The whole class had to huddle into the corner of

1231
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:30,920
Speaker 2: the room and one person had to come in and

1232
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:32,800
Speaker 2: they had to come in and stand in front of

1233
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:37,600
Speaker 2: the huddle of thirty and everybody would cheer, ah, just

1234
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 2: go crazy. And then they had to do it again,

1235
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 2: and the whole class would boo and jeer and shout

1236
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:49,719
Speaker 2: nasty things at you. And we had this fantastic teacher

1237
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 2: called Angela Dicastro, who was a well known Brazilian comedia

1238
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 2: alerted clown. She still does shows now, and she said,

1239
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:05,559
Speaker 2: you have to understand, the clown cannot be affected by

1240
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 2: the crowd. You cannot let the crowd dictate your reaction

1241
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 2: and your response, and because how you respond is the

1242
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:18,120
Speaker 2: clowns show. It's not in there, it's here. It's the

1243
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:22,360
Speaker 2: clown mask that responds to how to what the crowd needs,

1244
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 2: you know, and that was that went deep as a performer.

1245
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 2: So I got lots of really cool There was a

1246
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:32,960
Speaker 2: lot of learning from a performance point of view, but

1247
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:35,600
Speaker 2: I mean I think I was basically using it to

1248
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:40,280
Speaker 2: get gigs. And so that was three years, and weirdly

1249
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 2: for me, at the end of three years, I had

1250
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:44,639
Speaker 2: not found a band. I won Battle of the Bands,

1251
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:47,640
Speaker 2: which I was very proud of, but I did not

1252
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 2: find a band. I did not find my people in London,

1253
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 2: and I ended up going all the way back to

1254
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,720
Speaker 2: St Andrew's and because really the most exciting musicians I

1255
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 2: knew at that time was still there.

1256
01:19:56,840 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 1: Okay, before we go there, you talked about having your

1257
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 1: first band it Kent. Yeah, when did you first start playing?

1258
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 2: I started, well, I I was definitely I definitely came

1259
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:13,719
Speaker 2: out the womb musical. It was always, it was always present.

1260
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:16,560
Speaker 2: I was always drawn to musical instruments when I was

1261
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:18,600
Speaker 2: very very young. And actually I've got it on the

1262
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 2: wall in my little whiskey room at home where I

1263
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:25,479
Speaker 2: couldn't write and I was trying to write music. You

1264
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 2: can just see this little baby, this little baby handwriting

1265
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:32,080
Speaker 2: I'm trying to write musical notes and my mom being

1266
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:34,800
Speaker 2: a teacher. It really just warms my heart in the

1267
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:39,000
Speaker 2: bottom right hand corner. It just says, good, my mom's

1268
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:44,000
Speaker 2: marked my attempt at writing music. So I asked my

1269
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:47,720
Speaker 2: parents for a piano when I was four, and then

1270
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,799
Speaker 2: I just was It was very easy. I was very natural,

1271
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:55,680
Speaker 2: you know, I learned very fast. I did years of

1272
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:57,840
Speaker 2: lessons on piano. I never got very good at piano,

1273
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 2: it wasn't my instrument. And then I also did classical flute,

1274
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:05,000
Speaker 2: so I did all my flute exams. And then when

1275
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 2: I was fifteen, at high school in Scotland, you start

1276
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:11,640
Speaker 2: getting given free time to study for exams. And I

1277
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 2: used to go up to the music music department and

1278
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:16,920
Speaker 2: there was a guitar teacher called Tim, and I used

1279
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:18,880
Speaker 2: to just go in there, I say, can I borrow

1280
01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 2: a guitar? And I'm very grateful to him because he

1281
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:26,519
Speaker 2: never tried to get me to take lessons. He just

1282
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:28,840
Speaker 2: would let me borrow guitar so I could teach myself.

1283
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:33,479
Speaker 2: And so I never had lessons in guitar or voice,

1284
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:38,120
Speaker 2: but I had all my theory and background understanding through

1285
01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:40,760
Speaker 2: learning piano from a really young age. So it was

1286
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 2: a nice way of doing it where I wasn't being

1287
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:45,800
Speaker 2: instructed in the things that I was being creative with.

1288
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 2: But I had that kind of background, and so as

1289
01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:51,639
Speaker 2: soon as I as soon as I started playing guitar,

1290
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, this is it, this is what

1291
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to do. I was into acting when I

1292
01:21:56,880 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 2: was younger, and I remember I got chosen to go

1293
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 2: and do some role Shakespeare company thing and I was like,

1294
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:06,280
Speaker 2: these people are no beds. They're just I was just like,

1295
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:09,680
Speaker 2: they're just It was just so like, it was so

1296
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 2: performative all the time, and I was like, there's no

1297
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 2: way I could be surrounded by this. It would just

1298
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 2: go mad. And I also just wanted to write the

1299
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,680
Speaker 2: words myself. I didn't want someone telling me how to

1300
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:22,360
Speaker 2: say things and how to say other people's words. So

1301
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:27,600
Speaker 2: music was just the natural kind of artistic swivel to

1302
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 2: go into that instead where I'd just be my own boss.

1303
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 1: So when you were in college at the university near

1304
01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 1: the Castle, yeah you say that you busked. You say

1305
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:44,320
Speaker 1: you won the Battle of the bands, but you didn't

1306
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:48,200
Speaker 1: find the band I didn't how much did you busk?

1307
01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:50,160
Speaker 1: Were you looking for a band? How do you win

1308
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:51,759
Speaker 1: the Battle of the bands without a band?

1309
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,880
Speaker 2: So it was me and a mandolin player, my friend

1310
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 2: Jay right Mandalin's, and it was I really remember because

1311
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 2: there was this like goth band who'd entered and they

1312
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 2: were just so sure they were going to win, you know,

1313
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 2: and they were so pissed that they lost to a

1314
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:09,560
Speaker 2: girl with a guitar and a guy with a mandolin.

1315
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:13,120
Speaker 2: I've still got the poster, and my mom and dad

1316
01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:14,880
Speaker 2: had come down. They were visiting me at the time,

1317
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:17,120
Speaker 2: and it was just awesome me winning battle with the

1318
01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:22,560
Speaker 2: bands against the golf band. So as soon as I

1319
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 2: went to UNI, I started I was just straight to

1320
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 2: the kind of union students, union like events guy making

1321
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:30,680
Speaker 2: friends with them and making sure that I could do

1322
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:33,240
Speaker 2: a gig in the pub every you know, once a month.

1323
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:36,800
Speaker 2: And then I had a little scooter and I used

1324
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:41,120
Speaker 2: to go to Windsor where the castle is, which wasn't

1325
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:42,840
Speaker 2: far away, and I would just get my guitar out

1326
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:45,400
Speaker 2: and bosk. And I'd sort of learned busking from my

1327
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 2: Scottish friends when I was living in St Andrews. They

1328
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:49,920
Speaker 2: used to do that a lot, and I never busked

1329
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:52,800
Speaker 2: at home because I would have been too embarrassed for

1330
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 2: my parents' friends to be like throwing tenpence pieces into

1331
01:23:56,120 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 2: my guitar case. So I did it in London, in

1332
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:04,000
Speaker 2: Windsor out by college, and then I would go back

1333
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 2: to America for summers. My best friend from Kent, Amanda,

1334
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:13,839
Speaker 2: had gone on to do photography at the Institute of Chicago,

1335
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 2: and so I had a summer doing like open mic

1336
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 2: nights in Chicago that was wicked and I had a

1337
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 2: great time doing that. So I was just cutting my teeth,

1338
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:27,519
Speaker 2: you know. And bosking is such an amazing way to

1339
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 2: learn your craft. It's just unparalleled because no one's there

1340
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,240
Speaker 2: to listen to you. I'm quite a purist with busking.

1341
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:38,559
Speaker 2: I get very frustrated with boscos who use amplification. I

1342
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 2: don't think they should people quite some people quite like it.

1343
01:24:43,200 --> 01:24:45,839
Speaker 2: I would like to hear you just with an instrument,

1344
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:48,720
Speaker 2: making people stop and listen to you, without having your

1345
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:52,439
Speaker 2: fucking amp at eleven and not giving anyone any choice.

1346
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:55,800
Speaker 2: And it's also like, if you could afford an amp,

1347
01:24:56,040 --> 01:24:58,720
Speaker 2: why are you bosking? I couldn't afford an amp when

1348
01:24:58,720 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 2: I was bosking.

1349
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,400
Speaker 1: So how often did you actually busk?

1350
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:06,320
Speaker 2: I would just do it at the weekend, so not

1351
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:09,160
Speaker 2: every weekend, but i'd sometimes go into London. I remember

1352
01:25:09,479 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 2: I remember busking in Camden, which is, you know, like

1353
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:16,519
Speaker 2: the kind of Venice Beach of London. And I remember

1354
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 2: playing and this young rock and roll looking dude puts

1355
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:25,760
Speaker 2: a pound coin which was a big deal, into my

1356
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:28,639
Speaker 2: guitar case and I was like, oh my god, that's

1357
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:32,040
Speaker 2: Mark Owen from Take That and Take That, where like

1358
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:34,599
Speaker 2: they had been huge, you know, they were like our

1359
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 2: end sync. And I was like Mark Owen and he goes,

1360
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 2: you are really good, and I said, give us a fiver.

1361
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:49,880
Speaker 2: You've beat your massive And then I met him, like

1362
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:54,439
Speaker 2: I guess ten years later, after I'd had success and

1363
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 2: Take That hadn't had their big reunion, and he'd had

1364
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 2: a mildly successful career but it hadn't really worked out.

1365
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:04,639
Speaker 2: And I said Mark, and we met and he knew

1366
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 2: who I was at that point and he said, uh, oh,

1367
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:10,080
Speaker 2: it's so nice to see her. You know, well done.

1368
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:12,000
Speaker 2: And I was like, you gave me a quid when

1369
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 2: I was busking in Camden, and he goes, I might

1370
01:26:15,120 --> 01:26:20,920
Speaker 2: need to ask for that back. But yeah, so i'd

1371
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:22,320
Speaker 2: I would bust pretty regularly.

1372
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you say, oh, well, you know you're a mark

1373
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: from take that? Why not a fiber? To what degree?

1374
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:40,720
Speaker 1: These words have negative connotations? But I don't mean him

1375
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:43,600
Speaker 1: that way. To what degree were you? And are you

1376
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:45,040
Speaker 1: cheeky and aggressive?

1377
01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:49,880
Speaker 2: Oh, Dad's not that. I don't take that negatively at all.

1378
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:56,200
Speaker 2: I am. I definitely have cheeky and aggressive aspects to

1379
01:26:56,280 --> 01:27:02,760
Speaker 2: my personality. My dad was incredibly competitive, so I had

1380
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 2: a very competitive streak in me growing up, and I

1381
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 2: got in real hot water once in an early interview.

1382
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 2: I remember that the journalist was guy called John Lewis.

1383
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:19,880
Speaker 2: He was writing for I think it was Big Issue

1384
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:22,880
Speaker 2: or so, one of the one of the magazines where

1385
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:26,880
Speaker 2: it was like, you know, longer music interviews, and he

1386
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:29,840
Speaker 2: was baiting me and I fell for it and it

1387
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:31,960
Speaker 2: was so annoying, and he just said, you know, people

1388
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:34,920
Speaker 2: compare you to Dido, and Dido was really big at

1389
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 2: the time, and I was really angry at this. He'd

1390
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 2: been kind of nipping at me during this interview and

1391
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:44,360
Speaker 2: I was really green behind the ears and I didn't.

1392
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:51,160
Speaker 2: I didn't. I wasn't in great control of my of

1393
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:55,720
Speaker 2: my kind of response at this at that stage. Yet

1394
01:27:56,720 --> 01:28:00,439
Speaker 2: and uh and this this really bothered me because Dido

1395
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:05,639
Speaker 2: was a studio artist and I felt like Dido's music

1396
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:07,160
Speaker 2: and it was huge at the time, you know, and

1397
01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:11,519
Speaker 2: I felt like Dido's music was it had done so

1398
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 2: well and it was its own thing. But I did

1399
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:18,559
Speaker 2: not feel that Dido was known for her in her

1400
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:22,639
Speaker 2: live performance. It didn't feel like that was what Dido's

1401
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:27,240
Speaker 2: career was really about. And I also didn't feel like

1402
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:34,360
Speaker 2: she was a a very impressive singer, you know, her

1403
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:40,559
Speaker 2: her style was unique, and the kind of mixture of

1404
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:44,599
Speaker 2: her and her brother Roles production it made something that

1405
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:47,080
Speaker 2: really hit a zeitgeist. But I did not feel like

1406
01:28:47,160 --> 01:28:51,760
Speaker 2: she would be in the pantheon of Aretha Franklin, you know,

1407
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 2: or you know, ROBERTA. Flack amazing singers. And I really

1408
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:03,200
Speaker 2: prided myself, and pride is exactly the word that was,

1409
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:06,719
Speaker 2: you know, what was getting poked at this point where

1410
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:09,879
Speaker 2: I hoped that I was standing out as a vocalist,

1411
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:13,240
Speaker 2: and I just lost my temper and I said, well,

1412
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:17,559
Speaker 2: that's not fair, Diety can't fucking sing, which was you know,

1413
01:29:18,320 --> 01:29:24,519
Speaker 2: a really unkind, hurtful way of expressing what I was

1414
01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:29,760
Speaker 2: trying to say. And of course that's like the headline,

1415
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:33,799
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't And I think I did a publicly

1416
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 2: apologize after saying that because it wasn't a nice thing

1417
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:38,519
Speaker 2: to say. And it's not true either. She can sing,

1418
01:29:38,600 --> 01:29:42,800
Speaker 2: It's just I was annoyed at being thrown in. I

1419
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:48,400
Speaker 2: was also very touchy about being classed as a pop

1420
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 2: singer when I didn't feel like one. And I suppose

1421
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:55,679
Speaker 2: back to your question about being a woman in music,

1422
01:29:55,800 --> 01:29:58,800
Speaker 2: that was something that was really funny. I could put

1423
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:03,160
Speaker 2: three four man magazines on the table of reviews of me,

1424
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:05,719
Speaker 2: and one said I sounded like b York, one said

1425
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:09,080
Speaker 2: I sounded like Dido, one said I sounded like Janice Joplin,

1426
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:12,400
Speaker 2: and one said I sounded like Joni Mitchell. And I'm like, well,

1427
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:14,920
Speaker 2: make you fucking mind up because you can't sound like

1428
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:17,880
Speaker 2: the only thing is we've all got tits, so like,

1429
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 2: can we have some honesty here? Like that doesn't make sense?

1430
01:30:25,479 --> 01:30:27,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, navigating that, I don't know why I started

1431
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:29,080
Speaker 2: telling the story. I can't remember.

1432
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:32,080
Speaker 1: So you go back to seeing Andrews after college? Then what.

1433
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:39,360
Speaker 2: Then if someone had told me at fifteen years old

1434
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:42,559
Speaker 2: that it was going to take my lifetime again to

1435
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:44,880
Speaker 2: actually get a record out. That would have been very

1436
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:49,680
Speaker 2: sobering for me. So I go back to St Andrews

1437
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:54,080
Speaker 2: and I was just adamant to not sign a record deal.

1438
01:30:55,320 --> 01:31:01,679
Speaker 2: My mentor, Kin Kriso, was very un establishment, very very

1439
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:04,479
Speaker 2: anti industry. He'd had, I think he'd had a brush

1440
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:08,800
Speaker 2: with the record label and was fiercely independent and I

1441
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 2: just wanted to be cool like them, and so I

1442
01:31:12,280 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 2: really wanted to do it independently. So I was sort

1443
01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 2: of getting by on unemployment benefit and trying to get

1444
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:26,280
Speaker 2: gigs and applying for arts grants which I never got,

1445
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:31,360
Speaker 2: and getting gigs was really really tough in Edinburgh and

1446
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:35,479
Speaker 2: Saint Andrews. It was just it was a and R.

1447
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:40,760
Speaker 2: Guys were not coming up to Scotland back then. And

1448
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:44,800
Speaker 2: my other mentor Bobby Heatley, who ran a studio in

1449
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:48,200
Speaker 2: rehearsal space, and he recognized that I had talent and

1450
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:50,679
Speaker 2: he would really help me out. He was really helpful

1451
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:52,839
Speaker 2: because obviously, you know, you don't have money for that stuff.

1452
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:55,439
Speaker 2: So it was really great getting some demos together and

1453
01:31:55,479 --> 01:31:58,559
Speaker 2: being able to rehearse a band. But he said, get

1454
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:01,840
Speaker 2: your publishing deal. Get your publishing deal before you get

1455
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,160
Speaker 2: your record deal. Don't sign your record deal for money.

1456
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:07,920
Speaker 2: And that was great advice, and so I did that.

1457
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 2: I would keep whenever I could. I would go down

1458
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:12,640
Speaker 2: to London and I would play try and get in

1459
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 2: open mics and showcases, and I'd be phoning random numbers

1460
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:22,519
Speaker 2: for record label offices or publishing label offices. And it

1461
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:24,720
Speaker 2: was dawning on me for sure that I was going

1462
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:28,200
Speaker 2: to have to pursue a deal, that it was not

1463
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:31,479
Speaker 2: going to happen. Certainly if I stayed in Scotland and

1464
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:33,240
Speaker 2: tried to do this on my own, it was just

1465
01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:38,120
Speaker 2: like not happening. And one of my friends, Vic Galloway,

1466
01:32:38,160 --> 01:32:41,760
Speaker 2: who's a radio presenter. He'd been in a kind of

1467
01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:45,360
Speaker 2: punk band called miracle Head and Edinburgh was friends with

1468
01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 2: all the people I knew. He got a job on

1469
01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:51,000
Speaker 2: indie radio on Radio One, which is like a big deal.

1470
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 2: It was like a late night kind of indie underground

1471
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:59,679
Speaker 2: radio show. And I was like, play my song, come on, Vic,

1472
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:02,600
Speaker 2: play my song, and he wouldn't play it and he

1473
01:33:02,720 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 2: just said, no, you don't belong on my show. You

1474
01:33:06,680 --> 01:33:09,640
Speaker 2: need to get on mainstream radio. I was like well,

1475
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:11,559
Speaker 2: how the hell am I meant to do that? Like,

1476
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 2: can't you help me out? He just he was just

1477
01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:16,080
Speaker 2: like no, And at the time I was so angry

1478
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 2: that he wouldn't help me. And then, you know, at

1479
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:23,719
Speaker 2: that point, it was fully five years later my first

1480
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:27,000
Speaker 2: single was getting played on mainstream radio, and he was right,

1481
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 2: it wasn't. That wasn't where I was meant to be.

1482
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:31,120
Speaker 2: And I had to leave Saint Andrews and I had

1483
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:33,519
Speaker 2: to leave Scotland and I had to I had to

1484
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:39,479
Speaker 2: leave my little punk indie folk family and be what

1485
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:42,240
Speaker 2: I was actually meant to do, do what I was

1486
01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:44,880
Speaker 2: meant to do, which was much more mainstream.

1487
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:48,320
Speaker 1: Okay, a little bit slower. You're nobody from nowhere in Scotland.

1488
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:52,320
Speaker 1: You come to London and you get a publishing deal,

1489
01:33:52,479 --> 01:33:53,640
Speaker 1: no problem.

1490
01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:56,719
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't no problem. I mean it took years.

1491
01:33:56,920 --> 01:34:00,799
Speaker 2: So this is my entire twenties. So I finish college

1492
01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:05,479
Speaker 2: at twenty one and the publishing deal happens at twenty nine,

1493
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:09,080
Speaker 2: so it's yeah, it's a.

1494
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:14,559
Speaker 1: Long time twenty years later. Who owns those songs?

1495
01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:20,920
Speaker 2: Well, so I signed to Sony Publishing. I was with

1496
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:26,559
Speaker 2: them for twenty years and then COVID happens, and I

1497
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:32,000
Speaker 2: have just decided to buy a new move into a

1498
01:34:32,040 --> 01:34:36,559
Speaker 2: new place in Tapanga. I had a big old tour booked,

1499
01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:40,040
Speaker 2: and I take out a big old loan to upgrade

1500
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:44,600
Speaker 2: my life. And then suddenly there ain't no gigs, but

1501
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:48,559
Speaker 2: you still got to pay your loan back, right, And

1502
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:55,719
Speaker 2: the kind of publishing deals had started, the catalog deals

1503
01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:59,320
Speaker 2: had begun. At that point where you know, companies like

1504
01:34:59,400 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 2: Hypnosis and Primary Wave, who I've ended up working with,

1505
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:08,559
Speaker 2: I really just had to make a business decision. And

1506
01:35:08,640 --> 01:35:10,920
Speaker 2: I was just like, this is a business and I

1507
01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:16,719
Speaker 2: can either face this really really nightmarish situation right now

1508
01:35:17,439 --> 01:35:24,080
Speaker 2: where everything I have is in jeopardy, or I work

1509
01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 2: with this company. And the crazy thing about Primary Wave,

1510
01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:30,000
Speaker 2: who I'm not working with, was that Larry Mestel, who's

1511
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:32,679
Speaker 2: the head of Primary Wave, had actually been at Virgin

1512
01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:36,400
Speaker 2: Records when I first came over to America and set

1513
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:40,679
Speaker 2: and we had this amazing meeting and he said, he said,

1514
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:44,240
Speaker 2: he handed over to the next person at Virgin. He said,

1515
01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:47,000
Speaker 2: whatever you do, do not fuck up Katie Tunstall. She's

1516
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:50,479
Speaker 2: the next Melissa Etheridge. And he said, they fucked it up,

1517
01:35:52,240 --> 01:35:54,120
Speaker 2: and he said, and I want to make right by you,

1518
01:35:54,400 --> 01:35:56,519
Speaker 2: and I want to sign you, and I want to

1519
01:35:56,560 --> 01:35:58,439
Speaker 2: share your publishing and I want to make it worth

1520
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:01,400
Speaker 2: more and I the deal with them, and I'm and

1521
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:03,800
Speaker 2: I have a great relationship.

1522
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:05,599
Speaker 1: With Okay, just to break it down, so you sold

1523
01:36:05,600 --> 01:36:06,160
Speaker 1: them half of the.

1524
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:09,519
Speaker 2: Publishing, Well, I don't really want to go in.

1525
01:36:09,720 --> 01:36:11,880
Speaker 1: Let me put a different You're still own part of

1526
01:36:11,920 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 1: the publishing or did you sell a part part?

1527
01:36:14,560 --> 01:36:14,760
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1528
01:36:14,960 --> 01:36:18,960
Speaker 2: Part yeah? They they Larry was like, don't get rid

1529
01:36:18,960 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 2: of all of it. You should keep something.

1530
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:24,960
Speaker 1: Primary Wave has a label. Are you working with their

1531
01:36:25,040 --> 01:36:25,679
Speaker 1: label too?

1532
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:32,960
Speaker 2: Well? Primary Wave also owns Sun Records, So I put

1533
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:35,320
Speaker 2: a record out on Sun Records, which was a real

1534
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:38,920
Speaker 2: It was a huge honor of my career to have

1535
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:42,200
Speaker 2: a record out on Son and that was my duet's

1536
01:36:42,240 --> 01:36:46,720
Speaker 2: record with Suzi Quatro. But I really look forward to

1537
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:50,240
Speaker 2: keep doing stuff with them, and we've got another project

1538
01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:52,840
Speaker 2: in the works that would be great to they're they're

1539
01:36:52,920 --> 01:36:56,360
Speaker 2: very excited about maybe doing on so again. So it's

1540
01:36:56,479 --> 01:36:59,960
Speaker 2: it's a there. There are just a very kind of vibrant,

1541
01:37:00,280 --> 01:37:06,680
Speaker 2: excited creative company that want to do stuff. Whereas you

1542
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:08,720
Speaker 2: know before I would be having to like we'd be

1543
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:12,000
Speaker 2: knocking on doors going can you not find anything that

1544
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:14,800
Speaker 2: my music can get synced with? And it was just dead,

1545
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:17,519
Speaker 2: nothing was going on, and so it's just it was

1546
01:37:17,720 --> 01:37:21,639
Speaker 2: really nice to work. It's in general now that I've

1547
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:27,720
Speaker 2: also signed to BMG for publishing moving forward, and I

1548
01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:31,400
Speaker 2: love the BMG UK amazing company. They just they're just

1549
01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:35,720
Speaker 2: music fans. These people just love music, and that's how

1550
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:38,200
Speaker 2: I remember it being when I first started, and it's

1551
01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:42,120
Speaker 2: how I remember that tailing off where all the lawyers

1552
01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:45,760
Speaker 2: and accountants started running the record labels and it just

1553
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:50,960
Speaker 2: felt so sterile. And it just feels really nice to

1554
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:52,960
Speaker 2: get back to working with teams of people who were

1555
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:58,120
Speaker 2: genuinely it's still very excited by new music and old music.

1556
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:03,320
Speaker 1: So you moved to London and how do you ultimately

1557
01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:04,200
Speaker 1: get a record deal?

1558
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:09,240
Speaker 2: So I moved to London. I did not want to

1559
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:11,640
Speaker 2: move to London until I had a deal because I

1560
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:14,160
Speaker 2: knew that being in London with no money was going

1561
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 2: to be grim. So I would just get myself down

1562
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:20,639
Speaker 2: to London and I was I had a friend who

1563
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:23,840
Speaker 2: worked in film and he would let me crash in

1564
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:27,879
Speaker 2: his living room. But I felt bad because his roommates

1565
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:29,519
Speaker 2: had proper jobs that they had to get up for

1566
01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:32,280
Speaker 2: in the morning. So I would pull the couch two

1567
01:38:32,360 --> 01:38:34,479
Speaker 2: feet out from the wall and I would sleep behind

1568
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 2: the couch. And so yeah, there was many nights that

1569
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:44,360
Speaker 2: I would sleep behind behind Tim's couch and it was

1570
01:38:44,439 --> 01:38:49,640
Speaker 2: great times. You know, I have very very I have

1571
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:52,360
Speaker 2: very sweet memories of that time. It was it was

1572
01:38:52,439 --> 01:38:55,400
Speaker 2: an adventure and I would and I made friends with

1573
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:57,519
Speaker 2: the guys who ran a place called the Kashmere Club,

1574
01:38:58,040 --> 01:39:02,960
Speaker 2: this guy called Tony Moore, and it was a really revolutionary,

1575
01:39:04,040 --> 01:39:08,720
Speaker 2: revolutionary little open mic night in a basement in Marylebone

1576
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:11,719
Speaker 2: in London, and a lot of A and R guys

1577
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:14,680
Speaker 2: would come to that and you didn't pay. It was

1578
01:39:14,720 --> 01:39:17,479
Speaker 2: free to get in, but you had to shop up.

1579
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:23,240
Speaker 2: You were not allowed to talk during performances. And ultimately

1580
01:39:23,479 --> 01:39:24,799
Speaker 2: that's where I got signed.

1581
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:28,280
Speaker 1: Okay you mentioned earlier.

1582
01:39:28,120 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 2: But I should I should, but but that was my

1583
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:34,240
Speaker 2: record deal, my publishing deal. I was making phone calls

1584
01:39:34,439 --> 01:39:37,519
Speaker 2: trying to meet people in publishing and I actually got

1585
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:41,839
Speaker 2: offered a really tiny kind of like ten grand publishing

1586
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:45,519
Speaker 2: deal and that ended up leading to me working with

1587
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 2: a manager. And it was a guy who'd been at

1588
01:39:48,280 --> 01:39:53,000
Speaker 2: a label on the record label side, and he persuaded

1589
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:56,559
Speaker 2: me to kind of start working together, and he actually

1590
01:39:56,600 --> 01:40:00,800
Speaker 2: managed to get like Sony Warner and I think Chrysalis

1591
01:40:01,320 --> 01:40:04,080
Speaker 2: bidding for my publishing and I ended up with a

1592
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:05,120
Speaker 2: good deal.

1593
01:40:05,479 --> 01:40:08,920
Speaker 1: Okay, managers are a world done to itself. How long

1594
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:11,639
Speaker 1: did you work with that guy and what has been

1595
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:13,800
Speaker 1: your experience with managers?

1596
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:17,320
Speaker 2: I worked His name was Simon Banks. I worked with

1597
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:26,680
Speaker 2: him for ten ten years. I think he hadn't had

1598
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:28,560
Speaker 2: a lot of management experience before. He was na in

1599
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:35,520
Speaker 2: our guy, and you know, we had a just stellar

1600
01:40:36,520 --> 01:40:41,280
Speaker 2: first record. It was just an unbelievable success, like way way,

1601
01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:45,679
Speaker 2: way beyond anything we would imagine, like selling five million

1602
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:47,840
Speaker 2: copies of this record. It was just you know, it

1603
01:40:47,880 --> 01:40:51,920
Speaker 2: was a twenty three grand record deal. It was a

1604
01:40:52,240 --> 01:40:55,479
Speaker 2: I think like a I think it was something It

1605
01:40:55,520 --> 01:40:57,560
Speaker 2: was like a twenty grand budget for the record. It

1606
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:02,800
Speaker 2: was all these relatively small at that time. You know,

1607
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:05,680
Speaker 2: people were spending a lot of money on stuff and

1608
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:15,360
Speaker 2: it was pretty good. It was he had the substance

1609
01:41:15,400 --> 01:41:21,080
Speaker 2: abuse problem instead of me, so that was difficult. And

1610
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:24,719
Speaker 2: what I found as time was going on, and especially

1611
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:28,719
Speaker 2: as we got into album two was he was really

1612
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:30,960
Speaker 2: good at answering the phone, but not very good at

1613
01:41:31,600 --> 01:41:34,320
Speaker 2: making the phone calls to make things happen, and of course,

1614
01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:39,760
Speaker 2: inevitably the phone stops ringing as much. And then the

1615
01:41:40,479 --> 01:41:43,040
Speaker 2: thing that was really difficult was that I cracked America,

1616
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:48,479
Speaker 2: which was just stratospherically difficult and just fantastic that I

1617
01:41:48,520 --> 01:41:52,200
Speaker 2: managed to do it. And he would have a different opinion,

1618
01:41:52,240 --> 01:41:57,400
Speaker 2: but in my opinion, he did not manage that success

1619
01:41:58,040 --> 01:42:00,960
Speaker 2: to the point where I then had the career in

1620
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:06,240
Speaker 2: America that I could have had. I think we neglected

1621
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:08,960
Speaker 2: the American market too much, and you know, I was

1622
01:42:08,960 --> 01:42:12,640
Speaker 2: playing sheds to four or five six thousand people and

1623
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:15,720
Speaker 2: I can't do that now. And not to say that

1624
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:19,479
Speaker 2: I'm entitled to that, but there was there was a

1625
01:42:19,520 --> 01:42:22,639
Speaker 2: business plan, path, a strategy that we could have adopted

1626
01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:24,719
Speaker 2: that would have made that more likely, and I'm annoyed

1627
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:28,880
Speaker 2: that we didn't do that, so we stopped working together.

1628
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:31,160
Speaker 2: He had this Sunset deal where I'm paying you know,

1629
01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:33,920
Speaker 2: fucking stupid amounts of money for ten years, which was

1630
01:42:34,120 --> 01:42:37,840
Speaker 2: very painful, and we're not in touch anymore. So that's

1631
01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:38,680
Speaker 2: where it's ended up.

1632
01:42:38,840 --> 01:42:42,439
Speaker 1: So since him how many managers have you had, if

1633
01:42:42,479 --> 01:42:43,320
Speaker 1: any managers?

1634
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:46,679
Speaker 2: I had an American manager for a short period of time,

1635
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:50,080
Speaker 2: which was basically like a second divorce. It was it

1636
01:42:50,160 --> 01:42:56,400
Speaker 2: wasn't very disappointing, and I then had a friend of

1637
01:42:56,439 --> 01:42:59,600
Speaker 2: mine from London step in. He was in film, but

1638
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:02,000
Speaker 2: he was just a good friend and he said, look,

1639
01:43:02,160 --> 01:43:05,519
Speaker 2: I feel like you're not getting you feel like you

1640
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:09,120
Speaker 2: should be should be celebrated more than you are. Your

1641
01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:11,280
Speaker 2: career should be going better. And he was just he

1642
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:14,519
Speaker 2: knew that I had the capacity to do something positive

1643
01:43:14,520 --> 01:43:16,599
Speaker 2: in the world and wanted to help me do that.

1644
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:21,000
Speaker 2: And he's been He's been incredible. For the last ten years,

1645
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:26,760
Speaker 2: my friend Alex has been managing me, and to his

1646
01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:31,880
Speaker 2: own detriment, I think it's I'm excited about a new

1647
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:35,880
Speaker 2: situation on the new horizon where I can't talk about

1648
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:38,639
Speaker 2: it yet, but it's all good. And so the last

1649
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 2: ten years has been really I've been very grateful watching

1650
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:45,559
Speaker 2: someone who really cared and put me, put my best

1651
01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:49,160
Speaker 2: interests first, and it's made a huge difference. And I

1652
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:55,160
Speaker 2: feel that where I am now is vastly different. I

1653
01:43:55,160 --> 01:43:57,120
Speaker 2: don't know if I'd still be doing what I'm doing

1654
01:43:57,479 --> 01:44:00,240
Speaker 2: if it hadn't been for him coming in and helping me.

1655
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:13,960
Speaker 1: Okay, going back, how do you actually get the initial

1656
01:44:14,040 --> 01:44:14,639
Speaker 1: record deal?

1657
01:44:15,760 --> 01:44:17,559
Speaker 2: I mean, everyone's going to have a different answers. There,

1658
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:21,920
Speaker 2: I'm again, there's no there's no rule books. I'm telling

1659
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:27,960
Speaker 2: you my experience. I had my publishing deal, I did

1660
01:44:28,000 --> 01:44:30,040
Speaker 2: not get my I was not able to get a

1661
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:33,960
Speaker 2: record deal for two years of trying. I was trying,

1662
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:39,559
Speaker 2: no one was interested. I remember going into a record

1663
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:43,240
Speaker 2: company of which I will not name, and playing for

1664
01:44:43,360 --> 01:44:45,680
Speaker 2: him and he said, well, the thing is we have

1665
01:44:45,800 --> 01:44:51,599
Speaker 2: a girl who plays something. I was like, really, how

1666
01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:55,760
Speaker 2: many guys have you got that play something? But it

1667
01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:59,240
Speaker 2: was it was the Nora Jones effect, Like Nora's success

1668
01:44:59,320 --> 01:45:03,320
Speaker 2: had really blown the doors off in terms of female

1669
01:45:03,360 --> 01:45:06,880
Speaker 2: singer songwriters who played an instrument. She paved the way

1670
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:11,120
Speaker 2: for all of us, really and got the record companies

1671
01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:17,120
Speaker 2: excited about it. But unfortunately most of them had their

1672
01:45:17,160 --> 01:45:21,120
Speaker 2: girl who plays something, and it was very, very difficult

1673
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:23,320
Speaker 2: to get signed. And also I was older. That was

1674
01:45:23,400 --> 01:45:27,720
Speaker 2: probably putting people off without them saying it. And this

1675
01:45:27,880 --> 01:45:31,439
Speaker 2: one record company who saw me at the Cashmere Club

1676
01:45:31,880 --> 01:45:38,040
Speaker 2: at that under that basement open mic, they were an

1677
01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:45,040
Speaker 2: underground Asian dance label. The owner had been a Ugandan

1678
01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:49,880
Speaker 2: Asian dance DJ. They had so solid crew who was

1679
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:54,400
Speaker 2: like an urban RAF act. They offered me a five

1680
01:45:54,479 --> 01:45:59,000
Speaker 2: album deal for like twenty three grand and I was like,

1681
01:45:59,160 --> 01:46:04,760
Speaker 2: this seems like a completely preposterous partnership, Like why would

1682
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:07,519
Speaker 2: they even want me? They just really liked my stuff.

1683
01:46:08,160 --> 01:46:11,599
Speaker 2: And Shabs the head of that label, Absolute Maverick, He

1684
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:14,200
Speaker 2: was just like, we just signed things we like, doesn't

1685
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:17,880
Speaker 2: matter what it is, and they said, and I was

1686
01:46:17,960 --> 01:46:20,120
Speaker 2: very nervous about it. I was just like, it doesn't

1687
01:46:20,120 --> 01:46:22,320
Speaker 2: feel like the right fit. It's not a lot of money.

1688
01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:23,599
Speaker 1: Really.

1689
01:46:23,760 --> 01:46:28,280
Speaker 2: They were a subsidiary of Virgin at the time. They

1690
01:46:28,280 --> 01:46:31,479
Speaker 2: were called Relentless or its Outcast Records. It was Relentless

1691
01:46:31,479 --> 01:46:34,920
Speaker 2: and Outcast with their two imprints. And they said, well,

1692
01:46:34,960 --> 01:46:37,840
Speaker 2: here's the thing. We have this other band that's instrumental

1693
01:46:37,920 --> 01:46:41,240
Speaker 2: and they need a top line writer and a singer

1694
01:46:41,479 --> 01:46:43,000
Speaker 2: to do a few singles so that we can get

1695
01:46:43,040 --> 01:46:45,599
Speaker 2: them on radio. So why don't you work with them

1696
01:46:46,120 --> 01:46:48,000
Speaker 2: and then go on tour with them and you can

1697
01:46:48,040 --> 01:46:50,960
Speaker 2: get to know us. And I was like, that sounds awesome.

1698
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:53,479
Speaker 2: Who are they? And he says there were ten piece

1699
01:46:53,680 --> 01:47:00,040
Speaker 2: Klesmer Jewish hip hop band, and I'm like, who the

1700
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:02,800
Speaker 2: fuck are you people? This is so weird. And I

1701
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:05,680
Speaker 2: was like, I'm one hundred percent down, I'm in. That

1702
01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:11,240
Speaker 2: sounds amazing. And they were called oiv a Voi. So

1703
01:47:11,320 --> 01:47:14,519
Speaker 2: I go on tour with oiv Avoi and halfway through

1704
01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:17,120
Speaker 2: the tour, the band say to me, Katie would really

1705
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:21,519
Speaker 2: like to do a song in Sephardic Jewish Spanish and

1706
01:47:21,600 --> 01:47:25,080
Speaker 2: call it Ladino songs. Soldino is this Sardi Jewish language?

1707
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:27,160
Speaker 2: And I was like, great, good luck with that. I

1708
01:47:27,160 --> 01:47:30,240
Speaker 2: don't fucking speak that, like what And they said, don't worry,

1709
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:33,360
Speaker 2: you just learn it phonetically. It'll be great. And it

1710
01:47:33,479 --> 01:47:36,400
Speaker 2: was just it was so much fun. We just traveled

1711
01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:38,639
Speaker 2: all over the place. I got to know the record label.

1712
01:47:39,479 --> 01:47:43,840
Speaker 2: I trusted that they really were into just supporting music

1713
01:47:43,880 --> 01:47:45,960
Speaker 2: they liked and they weren't trying to change it into

1714
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:48,760
Speaker 2: other stuff. And so I signed the deal.

1715
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:53,439
Speaker 1: Okay, you signed the deal. There's X amount to make

1716
01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:58,040
Speaker 1: the record. How do you find a producer? What's the

1717
01:47:58,080 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 1: experience of actually making the record?

1718
01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it was really interesting because they didn't have

1719
01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:09,040
Speaker 2: a lot of budget, and I knew nothing about producers.

1720
01:48:09,040 --> 01:48:12,240
Speaker 2: I'd basically not really been in music in studios at

1721
01:48:12,240 --> 01:48:15,040
Speaker 2: this point. You know, my friend Bob who ran the

1722
01:48:15,080 --> 01:48:18,040
Speaker 2: studio in Edinburgh. I'd gone in there and done some recording,

1723
01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:20,320
Speaker 2: but I was very inexperienced, and all the stuff that

1724
01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:22,800
Speaker 2: i'd done before that was just eight tracks, you know,

1725
01:48:23,160 --> 01:48:26,439
Speaker 2: in a cottage on the edge, just and Andrew's, and

1726
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:32,240
Speaker 2: so I knew nothing about producing or mixing. And it

1727
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:35,160
Speaker 2: was actually my A and R guy, Martin Morales, who said,

1728
01:48:35,280 --> 01:48:36,960
Speaker 2: I think you should have a look at this guy,

1729
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:40,599
Speaker 2: Steve Osborne. He's really interesting. He's a rock producer. He'd

1730
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:44,360
Speaker 2: worked with Doves, You two and Placebo were like his

1731
01:48:44,479 --> 01:48:48,920
Speaker 2: big artist acts. And I was just like, whoa, this

1732
01:48:48,960 --> 01:48:51,160
Speaker 2: is not what I was expecting you to say, and

1733
01:48:51,200 --> 01:48:54,360
Speaker 2: this is delighting me that you are coming to me

1734
01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:59,800
Speaker 2: with a very non female artists suggestion, because that was

1735
01:48:59,840 --> 01:49:01,800
Speaker 2: my worry, right was that they were just kind of

1736
01:49:01,880 --> 01:49:05,840
Speaker 2: kind of sweet in the dish, and I was like,

1737
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:10,280
Speaker 2: this is this is really a good suggestion. So I

1738
01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:12,759
Speaker 2: went to meet with him. He worked out of Real World,

1739
01:49:12,760 --> 01:49:16,759
Speaker 2: out of Peter Gabriel's place in Bath and I really

1740
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:20,439
Speaker 2: really liked him. He was cool. He was weird. He

1741
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:25,879
Speaker 2: looked like a vampire. He was clearly into keeping things

1742
01:49:26,280 --> 01:49:32,320
Speaker 2: very gritty, which was really important to me. But we

1743
01:49:32,400 --> 01:49:34,680
Speaker 2: couldn't afford to do the record at real world. So

1744
01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:37,519
Speaker 2: he found the studio in the middle of nowhere in

1745
01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:40,200
Speaker 2: Bradford upon Avon, which is just outside Bath. And it

1746
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:43,320
Speaker 2: was this roadie who'd lost the use of his legs

1747
01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:46,680
Speaker 2: in an accident on tour, lived with his crazy Italian

1748
01:49:46,720 --> 01:49:50,960
Speaker 2: mother and had put a knave desk in his house

1749
01:49:51,479 --> 01:49:55,360
Speaker 2: with his mom, and like the vocal booth, was a

1750
01:49:55,520 --> 01:49:59,240
Speaker 2: disability ramp that you could either like sing going uphill

1751
01:49:59,320 --> 01:50:04,439
Speaker 2: or downhill, and it was it was very basic, like

1752
01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:08,880
Speaker 2: we had to we had to gaff tape comforters on

1753
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:12,120
Speaker 2: the wall for when we needed to change the sound.

1754
01:50:12,360 --> 01:50:18,200
Speaker 2: And Steve was literally the driver the whole Me and

1755
01:50:18,240 --> 01:50:20,840
Speaker 2: the musicians stayed at his house. We stayed in his kids'

1756
01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:24,880
Speaker 2: bunk beds. His wife would cook us food like it

1757
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:27,479
Speaker 2: was a labor of love for him. It was. It

1758
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:30,360
Speaker 2: was definitely not coming from a place of him thinking

1759
01:50:30,400 --> 01:50:31,920
Speaker 2: he was going to make a bunch of money off this.

1760
01:50:32,439 --> 01:50:34,120
Speaker 2: He loved the music and he wanted to do it,

1761
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:38,200
Speaker 2: and he just took on all the roles and we

1762
01:50:38,240 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 2: made the record. I loved it. It was very very

1763
01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:48,920
Speaker 2: stripped back, and I was And then we proceeded to

1764
01:50:48,960 --> 01:50:53,599
Speaker 2: send the masters to the label and I was not

1765
01:50:53,840 --> 01:50:57,120
Speaker 2: invited to the mix. I wasn't even told the mix

1766
01:50:57,200 --> 01:51:00,479
Speaker 2: was happening. The mix it was a guy I've still

1767
01:51:00,479 --> 01:51:04,240
Speaker 2: never met, and it just got sent away and it

1768
01:51:04,280 --> 01:51:07,400
Speaker 2: came back and I just felt like someone had taken

1769
01:51:07,439 --> 01:51:11,599
Speaker 2: a hot iron to the excitement of what we'd made,

1770
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:16,040
Speaker 2: and I couldn't stand it. And it was just like

1771
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:21,400
Speaker 2: it just felt so saccering like what they'd done. And

1772
01:51:21,439 --> 01:51:24,080
Speaker 2: when I listened to the record now, I'm like, Jesus

1773
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:27,840
Speaker 2: Christ is completely stripped back and raw, and it's still

1774
01:51:27,880 --> 01:51:30,760
Speaker 2: got all of that qualities, but it was just it

1775
01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:34,280
Speaker 2: was more produced. I'd not heard anything produced of mine,

1776
01:51:34,400 --> 01:51:37,320
Speaker 2: and so fuck knows what the we've got the originals?

1777
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:38,880
Speaker 2: We should I need to dig them out and have

1778
01:51:38,880 --> 01:51:41,000
Speaker 2: a listen to them because they must be so raw.

1779
01:51:43,080 --> 01:51:45,720
Speaker 2: But it was very very hard for me, and I

1780
01:51:45,800 --> 01:51:50,760
Speaker 2: felt quite betrayed by the label that they didn't include me.

1781
01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:54,400
Speaker 2: I didn't know that the artist wouldn't be included in

1782
01:51:54,439 --> 01:51:56,720
Speaker 2: the mixing process. And now of course, it's just like

1783
01:51:56,840 --> 01:52:01,240
Speaker 2: such an intrinsic part of making a record, and like

1784
01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:04,320
Speaker 2: my label boss got some guitarist in to like re

1785
01:52:04,320 --> 01:52:07,680
Speaker 2: record my parts without telling me, and it was just

1786
01:52:07,880 --> 01:52:10,160
Speaker 2: it was really he was trying to do the right thing.

1787
01:52:10,240 --> 01:52:14,600
Speaker 2: I believe that, but it was very hurtful and so

1788
01:52:14,720 --> 01:52:17,720
Speaker 2: it was very fractious. And then I had to go

1789
01:52:17,800 --> 01:52:20,599
Speaker 2: out and promote this record that I thought sounded terrible.

1790
01:52:21,080 --> 01:52:23,240
Speaker 2: It was, but I had to keep my I had

1791
01:52:23,240 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 2: to bite my tongue. It was very difficult because the

1792
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:28,960
Speaker 2: record was just doing so well. There's no point in

1793
01:52:29,040 --> 01:52:32,120
Speaker 2: me then going out and saying I didn't like it.

1794
01:52:32,120 --> 01:52:35,000
Speaker 2: It just felt like that was that was going to be,

1795
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:38,840
Speaker 2: you know, an insult to fans who liked it.

1796
01:52:40,520 --> 01:52:44,840
Speaker 1: How fast after it was released did it become successful?

1797
01:52:45,280 --> 01:52:47,400
Speaker 1: And if you ever come to accept her and you

1798
01:52:47,479 --> 01:52:50,640
Speaker 1: still think it's too flattened with an iron.

1799
01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:53,720
Speaker 2: Oh no, I mean to answer the latter question, I

1800
01:52:53,760 --> 01:52:56,640
Speaker 2: have one hundred percent embraced how it sounds, and I

1801
01:52:56,680 --> 01:52:58,760
Speaker 2: love how it sounds, and I can hear it and

1802
01:52:58,800 --> 01:53:01,360
Speaker 2: I can love every every part of it. Now, it

1803
01:53:02,600 --> 01:53:05,160
Speaker 2: was more I think an emotional reaction at the time

1804
01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:08,960
Speaker 2: to being you know, I was so worried about signing

1805
01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:12,599
Speaker 2: my soul away to the Devil with a record company that,

1806
01:53:13,240 --> 01:53:16,120
Speaker 2: and it just felt like those fears came true when

1807
01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:19,400
Speaker 2: that was happening. And so it was much more an

1808
01:53:19,439 --> 01:53:23,960
Speaker 2: emotional relationship with what had happened than it was the

1809
01:53:24,040 --> 01:53:27,800
Speaker 2: actual sound of the record. And you know, part I'm conflicted,

1810
01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:30,479
Speaker 2: I'm also like, well, whatever they did, it made itself

1811
01:53:30,600 --> 01:53:34,479
Speaker 2: five million copies, and it probably wouldn't have done that

1812
01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:37,799
Speaker 2: if they hadn't made it sound the way it sounded.

1813
01:53:38,720 --> 01:53:41,759
Speaker 2: And what was the first question?

1814
01:53:42,120 --> 01:53:44,520
Speaker 1: Was it successful from its release?

1815
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:48,840
Speaker 2: It wasn't fast. It wasn't fast. It was we it

1816
01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:51,080
Speaker 2: was a soft release. We kind of did an EP.

1817
01:53:51,479 --> 01:53:54,040
Speaker 2: It was rolling along. I think it went in at

1818
01:53:54,080 --> 01:54:03,600
Speaker 2: number seventy three, but it was a real slow moving juggernault.

1819
01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:07,240
Speaker 2: It was word of mouth. It was that beautiful magical

1820
01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:11,920
Speaker 2: thing called word of mouth, where it was back. People

1821
01:54:11,960 --> 01:54:14,800
Speaker 2: were still buying records, and they were sharing it and

1822
01:54:14,960 --> 01:54:17,640
Speaker 2: they were giving it to friends, and it was just

1823
01:54:17,800 --> 01:54:22,599
Speaker 2: building slowly, slowly, slowly. And then I got Jules Holland

1824
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:24,719
Speaker 2: and then everything changed.

1825
01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:28,040
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me the experience of the second record, how

1826
01:54:28,080 --> 01:54:31,040
Speaker 1: this gigantic success. You say the label wants more of

1827
01:54:31,080 --> 01:54:33,760
Speaker 1: what you did, You want to lean into the rock star.

1828
01:54:34,160 --> 01:54:35,800
Speaker 1: What was that experience? Like?

1829
01:54:37,400 --> 01:54:41,120
Speaker 2: The second record was fucking hideous. It was such a

1830
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:48,000
Speaker 2: hideous experience. I hated it. And this was where the

1831
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:52,840
Speaker 2: mistake was made with America, because I tod the Telescope

1832
01:54:52,840 --> 01:54:54,840
Speaker 2: came out in two thousand and four in the UK,

1833
01:54:55,080 --> 01:54:58,880
Speaker 2: and then it was released a year later in America

1834
01:54:59,440 --> 01:55:03,320
Speaker 2: and it off and I should have just not done

1835
01:55:03,360 --> 01:55:08,360
Speaker 2: a second record until I'd really got my relationship with

1836
01:55:08,400 --> 01:55:16,040
Speaker 2: America in a deeper place. But in the UK, I

1837
01:55:16,200 --> 01:55:18,880
Speaker 2: was being told by my manager, you have to have

1838
01:55:18,920 --> 01:55:22,440
Speaker 2: a second record out this quarter although because it's going

1839
01:55:22,520 --> 01:55:27,240
Speaker 2: to affect Sony Publishing's share price. And I was just like,

1840
01:55:27,360 --> 01:55:29,600
Speaker 2: what the fuck has that got to do with me?

1841
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:34,200
Speaker 2: And why would you want a record that's not ready?

1842
01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:39,840
Speaker 2: And I was exhausted. I was just the redbear. I

1843
01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:45,040
Speaker 2: was hanging on by a wire because I'd been touring

1844
01:55:45,440 --> 01:55:50,800
Speaker 2: eighteen months straight and partying and trying to keep my

1845
01:55:51,560 --> 01:55:55,480
Speaker 2: blog together, you know. And what I should have done

1846
01:55:56,080 --> 01:56:03,120
Speaker 2: is taken a month off, done a month of writing,

1847
01:56:05,400 --> 01:56:08,960
Speaker 2: but it just wasn't allowed. I was I was put

1848
01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:11,800
Speaker 2: in the studio. And the other massive mistake was I

1849
01:56:11,840 --> 01:56:15,839
Speaker 2: was put in Rockfield, which of course is a legendary studio,

1850
01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:23,920
Speaker 2: but I very quickly realized I don't really love big

1851
01:56:24,000 --> 01:56:28,160
Speaker 2: fancy studios. Love the I love the lore. I'd love

1852
01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:30,520
Speaker 2: to like record a song in there, but when it

1853
01:56:30,560 --> 01:56:32,960
Speaker 2: comes to actually making a record, I'd much prefer to

1854
01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:40,160
Speaker 2: be I suit a much more low fi, limited space.

1855
01:56:43,160 --> 01:56:46,040
Speaker 2: It's not helpful for me for someone to say, this

1856
01:56:46,160 --> 01:56:49,760
Speaker 2: is the piano that Pretty Mercury recorded Bohemian Rhapsody on.

1857
01:56:50,240 --> 01:56:52,480
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, that's great. I'm not going to do

1858
01:56:52,520 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 2: anything nearly as good as that on this piano. Let's

1859
01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:58,160
Speaker 2: make a record, you know, well's Zeppelin. We're here at

1860
01:56:58,240 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 2: great never going to be that good.

1861
01:57:01,600 --> 01:57:06,680
Speaker 1: Okay, So A, the record's done, how do you feel

1862
01:57:06,680 --> 01:57:10,400
Speaker 1: about the record? B The record is not commercially as successful.

1863
01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:11,480
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that?

1864
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:18,280
Speaker 2: So the label were very adamant that I worked with

1865
01:57:18,320 --> 01:57:22,120
Speaker 2: Steve again because they wanted to repeat success. Steve was

1866
01:57:22,160 --> 01:57:26,800
Speaker 2: not in a good place personally. He had his own

1867
01:57:26,840 --> 01:57:32,040
Speaker 2: issues going on. I was desperate to make a rock

1868
01:57:32,120 --> 01:57:34,920
Speaker 2: record because I had gone from playing in pubs and

1869
01:57:35,000 --> 01:57:40,400
Speaker 2: busking to playing for four thousand people and all of

1870
01:57:40,400 --> 01:57:45,880
Speaker 2: this new Sonic universe was now available to me. I

1871
01:57:46,040 --> 01:57:49,760
Speaker 2: was playing through huge pas, I was playing electric guitar.

1872
01:57:49,920 --> 01:57:53,120
Speaker 2: It was my Bob Dylan moment where I was just like,

1873
01:57:53,240 --> 01:57:58,080
Speaker 2: I could do really different shit on this record, and

1874
01:57:58,160 --> 01:58:00,760
Speaker 2: I want to play songs I want to make. I

1875
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:04,800
Speaker 2: want to have a wall of noise that is exciting,

1876
01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:08,040
Speaker 2: you know. I was seeing other people's gigs and I

1877
01:58:08,080 --> 01:58:11,440
Speaker 2: was like, I want to have that experience of being

1878
01:58:11,480 --> 01:58:15,240
Speaker 2: in a rock band and being a rock singer, and

1879
01:58:15,280 --> 01:58:18,520
Speaker 2: no one else wanted that. Everybody wanted me to do

1880
01:58:18,560 --> 01:58:22,000
Speaker 2: the same thing again. And I wanted to record the

1881
01:58:22,160 --> 01:58:26,520
Speaker 2: record live. I wanted I knew that I performed better

1882
01:58:26,560 --> 01:58:29,600
Speaker 2: when I live. I didn't want to track it, and

1883
01:58:30,480 --> 01:58:34,880
Speaker 2: just utter refusal from everybody. Your band isn't good enough,

1884
01:58:34,920 --> 01:58:36,600
Speaker 2: it's going to take too long, it's not going to

1885
01:58:36,640 --> 01:58:39,960
Speaker 2: be good. So we could not record that record live.

1886
01:58:40,040 --> 01:58:42,200
Speaker 2: And so that record, of all my records is the

1887
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:46,120
Speaker 2: one that I would love to re record because it

1888
01:58:46,120 --> 01:58:48,600
Speaker 2: should have been played live. It should have been recorded

1889
01:58:48,600 --> 01:58:53,160
Speaker 2: as live music, and it just lacks it lacks excitement,

1890
01:58:53,200 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 2: and it lacks the energy that those songs should have

1891
01:58:57,280 --> 01:58:59,240
Speaker 2: because I think the songs are good on that record,

1892
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:02,560
Speaker 2: and some of it worked, the slower, the sort of

1893
01:59:02,600 --> 01:59:05,840
Speaker 2: softer Sung's work. And not to not to shit on

1894
01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:07,880
Speaker 2: the record, because I still think it's good. I'm still

1895
01:59:07,920 --> 01:59:10,560
Speaker 2: proud of it, but it could have been a lot

1896
01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:16,640
Speaker 2: more exciting than it was. At that time. Everybody was

1897
01:59:16,680 --> 01:59:19,680
Speaker 2: losing their job. No one at my record label knew

1898
01:59:19,720 --> 01:59:22,080
Speaker 2: if they were going to be working there the next day.

1899
01:59:22,440 --> 01:59:27,080
Speaker 2: Internet had hit hard. All the people I saw in

1900
01:59:27,160 --> 01:59:31,280
Speaker 2: positions of authority at record labels had no fucking clue

1901
01:59:32,040 --> 01:59:34,040
Speaker 2: that the Internet was going to do what it did,

1902
01:59:34,400 --> 01:59:38,320
Speaker 2: and they were so slow, like no one was No

1903
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:41,920
Speaker 2: one was moving as if it was a you know,

1904
01:59:41,920 --> 01:59:44,880
Speaker 2: it should have been the alarms should have been going off,

1905
01:59:46,080 --> 01:59:49,720
Speaker 2: and they weren't. They just everyone was just carrying on

1906
01:59:49,840 --> 01:59:52,480
Speaker 2: as if things were going to stay the same. And

1907
01:59:54,360 --> 01:59:58,960
Speaker 2: that record really suffered, I think because of that, and

1908
01:59:59,000 --> 02:00:02,800
Speaker 2: my third record he suffered because there wasn't a new

1909
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:07,440
Speaker 2: approach to sharing the music and how it was marketed

1910
02:00:07,480 --> 02:00:10,000
Speaker 2: and how it was sold. It was just they were

1911
02:00:10,040 --> 02:00:11,880
Speaker 2: just it was all the same as it had been

1912
02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:12,840
Speaker 2: in two thousand and.

1913
02:00:12,720 --> 02:00:15,800
Speaker 1: Four, just starting on an artistic level. Were you happy

1914
02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:16,839
Speaker 1: with the third record.

1915
02:00:18,680 --> 02:00:21,480
Speaker 2: I loved the third record. Yeah, the third record was

1916
02:00:21,520 --> 02:00:25,440
Speaker 2: my middle finger to the label, going, you're not going

1917
02:00:25,520 --> 02:00:27,280
Speaker 2: to tell me what to do. So I decided I

1918
02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:30,840
Speaker 2: made I wanted to make an acoustic techno record and

1919
02:00:30,880 --> 02:00:34,840
Speaker 2: went to Berlin and made a record in Hansa and

1920
02:00:34,880 --> 02:00:38,280
Speaker 2: it's I think that record is probably very It's a

1921
02:00:38,280 --> 02:00:42,400
Speaker 2: little overproduced. There's too much going on. It was with

1922
02:00:42,800 --> 02:00:45,760
Speaker 2: Jim Abbys. We had such a good time and I

1923
02:00:45,800 --> 02:00:49,160
Speaker 2: don't regret it at all. I love that record. Makes

1924
02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:51,360
Speaker 2: me feel really good because I just did what the

1925
02:00:51,360 --> 02:00:52,040
Speaker 2: fuck I wanted.

1926
02:00:52,200 --> 02:00:54,880
Speaker 1: Okay, you put out the first record. Of course, I

1927
02:00:54,920 --> 02:00:58,320
Speaker 1: have an American perspective. You put out your first record.

1928
02:00:58,720 --> 02:01:02,560
Speaker 1: All of the old world than old mechanism still exists,

1929
02:01:03,000 --> 02:01:05,600
Speaker 1: even though they were on their last gasp, whether people

1930
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:06,160
Speaker 1: know it or not.

1931
02:01:06,880 --> 02:01:08,960
Speaker 2: Oh, it is the tiger. I call it the tiger's tail.

1932
02:01:09,120 --> 02:01:10,960
Speaker 2: I was so lucky to grab the tail.

1933
02:01:11,280 --> 02:01:15,880
Speaker 1: So you have that tail, and you have you know,

1934
02:01:16,320 --> 02:01:22,240
Speaker 1: MTV still meant something, you have videos, etc. One So

1935
02:01:23,440 --> 02:01:26,320
Speaker 1: you realize the world was changing, the people you were

1936
02:01:26,320 --> 02:01:31,240
Speaker 1: working with did not. Where does that leave you today,

1937
02:01:31,640 --> 02:01:35,200
Speaker 1: because the landscape has completely changed from when you.

1938
02:01:35,280 --> 02:01:48,520
Speaker 2: Broke Yeah, absolutely I'm very lucky because from a timing

1939
02:01:48,560 --> 02:01:52,720
Speaker 2: point of view, I think that my fans certainly and

1940
02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:58,200
Speaker 2: I think the wider general public do not necessarily view

1941
02:01:58,280 --> 02:02:01,560
Speaker 2: me as a heritage act. I'm not sort of seen

1942
02:02:01,600 --> 02:02:03,880
Speaker 2: as going out and just you know, dining out on

1943
02:02:03,960 --> 02:02:07,600
Speaker 2: these old hits, while of course I play them. I've

1944
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:11,760
Speaker 2: consistently put out records since then and worked them hard,

1945
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:17,720
Speaker 2: so I've managed to I think, keep irrelevance as a

1946
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:25,400
Speaker 2: contemporary musician, which has been healthy. It's been good, but

1947
02:02:26,320 --> 02:02:30,920
Speaker 2: I have the huge benefit of also being viewed as

1948
02:02:30,960 --> 02:02:34,920
Speaker 2: an old school musician that's sold records, and my fan

1949
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:38,680
Speaker 2: base is very much the foundation of that fan base

1950
02:02:38,760 --> 02:02:43,040
Speaker 2: is people who bought records and still love albums and

1951
02:02:43,080 --> 02:02:45,440
Speaker 2: still want to buy vinyl. I mean there's tons of

1952
02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:47,839
Speaker 2: you know, young kids now who want to buy vinyl,

1953
02:02:47,920 --> 02:02:56,360
Speaker 2: which is fantastic, but it's Jesus Christ. I mean, streaming

1954
02:02:56,920 --> 02:03:02,920
Speaker 2: is just so ruinous for musicians. It's just so difficult.

1955
02:03:03,160 --> 02:03:07,720
Speaker 2: I don't know how new artists even manage with that

1956
02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:11,120
Speaker 2: being their main source of how they share what they make.

1957
02:03:14,240 --> 02:03:16,720
Speaker 2: And so it's really been.

1958
02:03:19,640 --> 02:03:24,120
Speaker 1: You know, my boat that I.

1959
02:03:25,800 --> 02:03:31,320
Speaker 2: Still say is live, and I think honing a very

1960
02:03:31,440 --> 02:03:34,760
Speaker 2: unique live show where there's not a lot of people

1961
02:03:34,800 --> 02:03:38,000
Speaker 2: who perform solo and can kind of sound like a band.

1962
02:03:38,080 --> 02:03:42,320
Speaker 2: So the loop pedal stuff has been a great gift

1963
02:03:42,360 --> 02:03:44,440
Speaker 2: in my life. And there was a time where I

1964
02:03:44,480 --> 02:03:46,080
Speaker 2: really wanted to get rid of it because it just

1965
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:47,720
Speaker 2: felt like a gimmick and I was just like, oh

1966
02:03:47,760 --> 02:03:50,200
Speaker 2: my god, I'm just the loop girl. And then I

1967
02:03:50,960 --> 02:03:53,840
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, I'm the loop girl. That's

1968
02:03:53,920 --> 02:03:58,600
Speaker 2: really cool, and it's like really awesome feeling like I've

1969
02:03:58,640 --> 02:04:06,120
Speaker 2: pioneered something in music. And so now I'm very grateful

1970
02:04:06,160 --> 02:04:08,560
Speaker 2: for it, and I love I love playing solo and

1971
02:04:09,360 --> 02:04:12,280
Speaker 2: that that solo show which is now sort of partly

1972
02:04:12,320 --> 02:04:15,560
Speaker 2: a storytelling show as well, and it's partly a comedy show.

1973
02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:18,640
Speaker 2: I love having a laugh with the audience. But also

1974
02:04:18,680 --> 02:04:22,200
Speaker 2: I'm so constantly pushing like what I can do, and

1975
02:04:22,480 --> 02:04:27,600
Speaker 2: it's all about dynamism within a solo show, like how

1976
02:04:27,600 --> 02:04:30,680
Speaker 2: many different sounds can I present you as one person?

1977
02:04:30,920 --> 02:04:33,800
Speaker 2: And people really love it. People really love seeing one

1978
02:04:33,840 --> 02:04:38,520
Speaker 2: person creating what sounds like a band. And I think

1979
02:04:38,600 --> 02:04:43,160
Speaker 2: that for me now, you know, our dream is of

1980
02:04:43,520 --> 02:04:48,000
Speaker 2: our dream as musicians is to have a signature sound

1981
02:04:48,400 --> 02:04:51,640
Speaker 2: that you. Within the first eight bars of someone hearing something,

1982
02:04:51,640 --> 02:04:54,480
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, that's Katie tells. Though, you know what

1983
02:04:54,520 --> 02:04:59,360
Speaker 2: a fucking amazing achievement that is that you've got your sound,

1984
02:04:59,800 --> 02:05:02,520
Speaker 2: but also that you've got this You've just got your

1985
02:05:02,560 --> 02:05:07,760
Speaker 2: own little corner of the music universe that feels like yours,

1986
02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:11,720
Speaker 2: and it feels unique, and it feels original, and it

1987
02:05:11,720 --> 02:05:15,160
Speaker 2: feels like there's enough space that you can keep expanding

1988
02:05:15,200 --> 02:05:19,840
Speaker 2: and keep changing and keep growing all the time into

1989
02:05:19,880 --> 02:05:25,480
Speaker 2: something that feels fresh, you know, and that you've got

1990
02:05:25,560 --> 02:05:30,160
Speaker 2: your space to say what you want to say. And

1991
02:05:30,200 --> 02:05:34,120
Speaker 2: I think that that that's where I am now, that

1992
02:05:34,200 --> 02:05:37,960
Speaker 2: I just I have my I feel like I have

1993
02:05:38,120 --> 02:05:41,840
Speaker 2: my space and it's me and it's got my name

1994
02:05:41,880 --> 02:05:42,720
Speaker 2: on it and it's.

1995
02:05:44,640 --> 02:05:45,280
Speaker 1: And I can.

1996
02:05:47,760 --> 02:05:49,040
Speaker 2: Thrive in there.

1997
02:05:56,720 --> 02:05:59,320
Speaker 1: That's a very accurate assessment of the landscape. A lot

1998
02:05:59,320 --> 02:06:01,080
Speaker 1: of people been in the business as long as you

1999
02:06:01,120 --> 02:06:04,800
Speaker 1: have do not have that perspective. But let's put that

2000
02:06:04,920 --> 02:06:07,000
Speaker 1: visa VI. The old game. The old game is you

2001
02:06:07,080 --> 02:06:11,160
Speaker 1: make a record, you're hoping for a single to catch fire.

2002
02:06:11,480 --> 02:06:14,240
Speaker 1: And of course then it was terrestrial radio. Terrestrial radio

2003
02:06:14,440 --> 02:06:17,440
Speaker 1: is you know, it's exists, but it doesn't have the

2004
02:06:17,440 --> 02:06:22,360
Speaker 1: power it once did. So I saw you perform in

2005
02:06:22,400 --> 02:06:26,600
Speaker 1: the spring, and you know, for those who've never seen

2006
02:06:26,640 --> 02:06:29,200
Speaker 1: you see you once, they're not gonna you're never gonna

2007
02:06:29,240 --> 02:06:34,520
Speaker 1: forget it. Yeah, experience, and it's far more than someone

2008
02:06:34,600 --> 02:06:38,720
Speaker 1: standing near performing numbers. As you say, there's comedy, there's

2009
02:06:38,720 --> 02:06:39,280
Speaker 1: a person out.

2010
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:42,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like, wow, oh, thank you, Bob. I

2011
02:06:42,720 --> 02:06:45,760
Speaker 2: appreciate that you've seen a lot of gigs. I appreciate

2012
02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:46,720
Speaker 2: that very much.

2013
02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:50,560
Speaker 1: I mean that one hundred percent. But I do have

2014
02:06:50,640 --> 02:06:55,480
Speaker 1: a question in your own mind. Is there a belief

2015
02:06:56,120 --> 02:07:00,320
Speaker 1: that if enough people see me, they'll spread the world

2016
02:07:00,400 --> 02:07:04,120
Speaker 1: and my audience will grow or do you more feel

2017
02:07:04,120 --> 02:07:07,480
Speaker 1: like I thank god I have the audience. I do have.

2018
02:07:08,160 --> 02:07:10,480
Speaker 1: And then the third question, which relates to the first,

2019
02:07:10,800 --> 02:07:13,280
Speaker 1: have you seen any evidence of any growth?

2020
02:07:15,120 --> 02:07:19,160
Speaker 2: I have absolutely seen growth. I absolutely believe that if

2021
02:07:19,200 --> 02:07:21,640
Speaker 2: I can get in front of people, they will like

2022
02:07:21,760 --> 02:07:24,360
Speaker 2: the show, they will enjoy the show, they will be

2023
02:07:24,400 --> 02:07:26,560
Speaker 2: moved by the show, and they will tell their friends

2024
02:07:26,560 --> 02:07:29,240
Speaker 2: to come next time. I believe that and I've seen

2025
02:07:29,320 --> 02:07:32,839
Speaker 2: that for sure. So this is why I now really

2026
02:07:33,040 --> 02:07:38,880
Speaker 2: enjoy opening for other people. And I was sort of

2027
02:07:38,880 --> 02:07:40,960
Speaker 2: really I was really against it at the beginning of

2028
02:07:40,960 --> 02:07:42,280
Speaker 2: my career because I was just like, I don't want

2029
02:07:42,280 --> 02:07:44,280
Speaker 2: to play for people who are just buying beer and

2030
02:07:44,320 --> 02:07:46,600
Speaker 2: waiting for the next band. I'd prefer you know, I

2031
02:07:46,600 --> 02:07:48,400
Speaker 2: don't want to play to a thousand people who waiting

2032
02:07:48,440 --> 02:07:49,880
Speaker 2: for someone else. I want to play to one hundred

2033
02:07:49,880 --> 02:07:53,160
Speaker 2: people who want to see me. It's misguided. It was

2034
02:07:53,200 --> 02:07:58,640
Speaker 2: a misguided idea, that misguided way of thinking, because it's

2035
02:07:59,120 --> 02:08:03,040
Speaker 2: extremely great when another artist asks you on tour with

2036
02:08:03,120 --> 02:08:06,920
Speaker 2: them for a start, they're giving you the audience they

2037
02:08:06,960 --> 02:08:11,480
Speaker 2: have earned over their own decades of work. I mean,

2038
02:08:11,520 --> 02:08:15,000
Speaker 2: I recently went out with Roger Daughtry and just had

2039
02:08:16,200 --> 02:08:20,320
Speaker 2: the best fucking time, and I'm like, I'm playing for

2040
02:08:20,560 --> 02:08:23,680
Speaker 2: who fans? I'm playing for Roger Daultry fans. These are

2041
02:08:23,720 --> 02:08:25,880
Speaker 2: people who've seen some of the best gigs that have

2042
02:08:26,040 --> 02:08:31,680
Speaker 2: ever been played on stage. They're discerning people, they have

2043
02:08:31,880 --> 02:08:34,880
Speaker 2: high expectations of what they're going to see. And I

2044
02:08:34,920 --> 02:08:37,480
Speaker 2: said to Roger, you know, you're obviously not going to

2045
02:08:37,560 --> 02:08:42,000
Speaker 2: play the entire who back catalog on your tour. Is

2046
02:08:42,040 --> 02:08:45,160
Speaker 2: there a song of yours or Who's that I might

2047
02:08:45,240 --> 02:08:48,400
Speaker 2: cover that might delight your fans? To hear that they're

2048
02:08:48,400 --> 02:08:51,560
Speaker 2: not going to hear in your set, he immediately goes acid, Queen,

2049
02:08:51,760 --> 02:08:55,280
Speaker 2: you need to do it. And it was such a

2050
02:08:55,360 --> 02:09:03,840
Speaker 2: thrill a learning that znge b playing it for his fans,

2051
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:06,440
Speaker 2: just the being in the moment of being on stage

2052
02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:10,440
Speaker 2: before him for his audience thousands and thousands and eight

2053
02:09:10,480 --> 02:09:15,080
Speaker 2: thousand people, you know, and nailing it. And I was

2054
02:09:15,200 --> 02:09:18,040
Speaker 2: like yes, and them going yes, she did do a

2055
02:09:18,040 --> 02:09:23,720
Speaker 2: good job playing on her own. It was super cool.

2056
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:26,320
Speaker 2: And I'm on the on tour at the moment with

2057
02:09:26,360 --> 02:09:29,440
Speaker 2: told the whitt Sprocket and I wasn't massively familiar with

2058
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:32,960
Speaker 2: their music, not going up anyway for sure, because it

2059
02:09:33,080 --> 02:09:37,920
Speaker 2: wasn't that prevalent in the UK. And man, their fans

2060
02:09:37,960 --> 02:09:40,440
Speaker 2: are just amazing. I feel like I'm playing to my

2061
02:09:40,480 --> 02:09:44,560
Speaker 2: own people, like they're so open to listening to something

2062
02:09:44,600 --> 02:09:47,200
Speaker 2: they haven't heard before, and they're giving me like standing

2063
02:09:47,200 --> 02:09:50,400
Speaker 2: evations in the during the show and at the end

2064
02:09:50,440 --> 02:09:53,160
Speaker 2: of the show. It just and it really keeps seeing

2065
02:09:53,160 --> 02:09:57,160
Speaker 2: people saying I knew that one song, but I never

2066
02:09:57,720 --> 02:10:00,280
Speaker 2: never been to her show, didn't or catalog. Now they're

2067
02:10:00,360 --> 02:10:04,360
Speaker 2: checking out all the records. It's really cool. So I'm

2068
02:10:04,840 --> 02:10:08,200
Speaker 2: having a really good time. I'm really enjoying. I'm really

2069
02:10:08,280 --> 02:10:11,760
Speaker 2: enjoying playing, and there's been times where I haven't, so

2070
02:10:11,840 --> 02:10:14,360
Speaker 2: I'm really glad that I've come back around to enjoying,

2071
02:10:15,440 --> 02:10:19,120
Speaker 2: really being grateful for the job. And I love going

2072
02:10:19,160 --> 02:10:22,760
Speaker 2: on tour with people because it's a masterclass. You get

2073
02:10:22,760 --> 02:10:24,920
Speaker 2: to watch these other artists and bands. You know I've been.

2074
02:10:25,120 --> 02:10:27,720
Speaker 2: I went on tour with Simple Minds and the Pretenders.

2075
02:10:28,080 --> 02:10:32,000
Speaker 2: I mean, fucking hell, it's amazing, and it was funny.

2076
02:10:32,000 --> 02:10:33,960
Speaker 2: I'll tell you a quick funny story about Chrissy Hines.

2077
02:10:34,000 --> 02:10:36,360
Speaker 2: So Christy Hein was just terrifying and she's just like

2078
02:10:36,520 --> 02:10:39,160
Speaker 2: my favorite, and you know, I'm such a big fan

2079
02:10:39,280 --> 02:10:42,680
Speaker 2: of hers. She's my number one. And I was just

2080
02:10:42,800 --> 02:10:44,760
Speaker 2: too much of a fangirl to like be able to

2081
02:10:44,760 --> 02:10:46,520
Speaker 2: actually make friends with her, and she was just too

2082
02:10:46,520 --> 02:10:50,800
Speaker 2: scary to me. But every night she would call me

2083
02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:53,960
Speaker 2: out and she'd say, you better have been here for

2084
02:10:54,040 --> 02:10:56,680
Speaker 2: Katie Tunstall because she's still great, and I was like,

2085
02:10:56,800 --> 02:10:59,480
Speaker 2: oh my god. And then she'd like dedicate Brass and

2086
02:10:59,520 --> 02:11:02,480
Speaker 2: Pocket to me every night. We're just crazy. And at

2087
02:11:02,480 --> 02:11:07,240
Speaker 2: the end of the tour she goes, you gotta see Kass.

2088
02:11:07,440 --> 02:11:14,400
Speaker 2: She's awesome. She's awesome. She really inspires me, like what like,

2089
02:11:14,440 --> 02:11:17,400
Speaker 2: and I'm not really managing to kind of create a

2090
02:11:17,440 --> 02:11:19,640
Speaker 2: friendship rapport with her, you know. At the same time,

2091
02:11:19,640 --> 02:11:22,760
Speaker 2: it's like, this is insane. And I had to go

2092
02:11:22,800 --> 02:11:25,000
Speaker 2: and speak to her afterwards, and I was like, Chrissy,

2093
02:11:25,480 --> 02:11:28,680
Speaker 2: this is insane. You're Chrissy hein. I need to know

2094
02:11:28,720 --> 02:11:32,240
Speaker 2: what you mean when you say that I inspire you.

2095
02:11:32,480 --> 02:11:36,320
Speaker 4: And she goes, I don't know, You're just so fucking friendly.

2096
02:11:40,640 --> 02:11:45,800
Speaker 4: She's like, I can never do that, and I was like,

2097
02:11:46,120 --> 02:11:47,040
Speaker 4: that's amazing.

2098
02:11:47,920 --> 02:11:48,640
Speaker 2: Now I get it.

2099
02:11:49,120 --> 02:11:53,600
Speaker 1: Okay, what's your social media online presence?

2100
02:11:56,240 --> 02:11:59,200
Speaker 2: I really enjoy social media. You probably don't hear that

2101
02:11:59,280 --> 02:12:03,840
Speaker 2: very often. I don't. I just am not interested in this.

2102
02:12:03,840 --> 02:12:06,280
Speaker 2: This is what I'm fucking having for breakfast. I just

2103
02:12:06,440 --> 02:12:09,960
Speaker 2: I'm not It's just moronic. So I'm not doing that.

2104
02:12:10,520 --> 02:12:15,200
Speaker 1: You have TikTok, which is where things blow up these days.

2105
02:12:16,200 --> 02:12:17,040
Speaker 1: You have an act.

2106
02:12:17,600 --> 02:12:20,920
Speaker 2: I actually, yeah, I'm going to be really honest with you.

2107
02:12:21,120 --> 02:12:26,040
Speaker 2: I don't have TikTok, so I have Instagram and x

2108
02:12:26,120 --> 02:12:29,440
Speaker 2: but what I'm what my content gets put onto TikTok

2109
02:12:29,520 --> 02:12:29,800
Speaker 2: for me.

2110
02:12:29,960 --> 02:12:35,240
Speaker 1: Well, you have the type of act that could translate

2111
02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:41,600
Speaker 1: on TikTok and if you made stuff specifically for TikTok yourself,

2112
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:46,520
Speaker 1: because TikTok to algorithm is are you are you?

2113
02:12:46,600 --> 02:12:49,000
Speaker 2: Are you giving me advice on how to expand my career?

2114
02:12:49,040 --> 02:12:52,520
Speaker 1: Bob, I'll give you a little advice. I'll give you

2115
02:12:52,600 --> 02:13:01,400
Speaker 1: the other advice. Okay. Management is about relationships, and certainly

2116
02:13:01,440 --> 02:13:03,840
Speaker 1: a manager who cares about you. Who's number one. If

2117
02:13:03,840 --> 02:13:08,400
Speaker 1: it's the biggest manager, it's irrelevant if you know they're not.

2118
02:13:08,920 --> 02:13:11,680
Speaker 1: You know. That's why relationships make a difference in terms

2119
02:13:11,720 --> 02:13:14,920
Speaker 1: of the act and the manager, so the manager can

2120
02:13:15,080 --> 02:13:20,280
Speaker 1: leverage opportunities. One of the big things for an act

2121
02:13:20,760 --> 02:13:24,000
Speaker 1: is exposure. One thing, you know is what you think

2122
02:13:24,120 --> 02:13:29,280
Speaker 1: is going to work almost universally never works. Yeah it's

2123
02:13:29,320 --> 02:13:31,960
Speaker 1: a thing you said, ah, I don't really want to

2124
02:13:32,040 --> 02:13:34,600
Speaker 1: do it, but okay, blah blah, and then all of

2125
02:13:34,640 --> 02:13:40,040
Speaker 1: a sudden that works. Okay, So having seen you, I say, okay,

2126
02:13:40,480 --> 02:13:43,920
Speaker 1: if someone saw this, they would get this is rare.

2127
02:13:44,280 --> 02:13:46,840
Speaker 1: I mean no, you put it very well. No one

2128
02:13:46,920 --> 02:13:50,400
Speaker 1: is doing what you're doing. So theoretically you could have

2129
02:13:50,440 --> 02:13:53,680
Speaker 1: a manager who could put you in spots where you

2130
02:13:53,680 --> 02:13:56,880
Speaker 1: could potentially get lucky. Okay, that's one thing.

2131
02:13:57,040 --> 02:13:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2132
02:13:57,480 --> 02:14:05,800
Speaker 1: The next thing is TikTok. Musicians have it wrong. I'll

2133
02:14:05,800 --> 02:14:07,880
Speaker 1: give you an example, which is kind of funny. You

2134
02:14:08,080 --> 02:14:14,240
Speaker 1: wear this guy, Jesse Wells. Jesse Wells is a guy

2135
02:14:14,360 --> 02:14:19,920
Speaker 1: who does topical material alone on his guitar, and he's

2136
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:25,440
Speaker 1: releasing material very frequently, like one song a week, okay,

2137
02:14:26,000 --> 02:14:29,440
Speaker 1: and he's gotten amazing coverage and the New York type Listen.

2138
02:14:29,640 --> 02:14:33,400
Speaker 1: It's a hard road to hoe because you're not making

2139
02:14:33,480 --> 02:14:37,120
Speaker 1: songs for the radio whatever. But this guy went from

2140
02:14:37,240 --> 02:14:42,000
Speaker 1: essentially nothing he's been around to being People email me

2141
02:14:42,040 --> 02:14:46,440
Speaker 1: about Jesse Wells as much as they do of anybody. Okay,

2142
02:14:46,840 --> 02:14:49,320
Speaker 1: I look at Jesse Wells. He stands in their guitar,

2143
02:14:49,520 --> 02:14:52,160
Speaker 1: usually like in a field or by a railroad track

2144
02:14:52,240 --> 02:14:55,680
Speaker 1: or something, and he sings a topical song. Okay. The

2145
02:14:55,720 --> 02:14:59,760
Speaker 1: songs are brief, for like two minutes. Bob Dylan does

2146
02:14:59,800 --> 02:15:02,760
Speaker 1: not have a radio friendly voice, but he's the best

2147
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:07,920
Speaker 1: lyricist of all time. Jesse Wells is not the best

2148
02:15:08,000 --> 02:15:10,440
Speaker 1: lyrics of all time, but he also doesn't have the

2149
02:15:10,480 --> 02:15:15,520
Speaker 1: world's most palatable voice, but he is on there every week.

2150
02:15:16,120 --> 02:15:18,840
Speaker 1: Just recently, there are people starting to do what he's doing.

2151
02:15:19,480 --> 02:15:27,200
Speaker 1: So if you're on TikTok saying, you know, performing a song,

2152
02:15:27,640 --> 02:15:30,760
Speaker 1: let's be very clear. I think briefer the better. Certainly,

2153
02:15:30,800 --> 02:15:34,280
Speaker 1: nothing more than two minutes. It could be thirty seconds.

2154
02:15:34,360 --> 02:15:37,400
Speaker 1: It could be something you make up on the spot

2155
02:15:37,480 --> 02:15:42,560
Speaker 1: that is one hundred percent true to yourself, not second

2156
02:15:42,600 --> 02:15:47,920
Speaker 1: guessing the audience, but being exhibiting. This is what I do.

2157
02:15:48,080 --> 02:15:50,360
Speaker 1: And in addition, you do more than play music. You

2158
02:15:50,360 --> 02:15:53,120
Speaker 1: have a personality of a sense of comedy. If that

2159
02:15:53,280 --> 02:15:57,280
Speaker 1: comes up you today, more than every you have to

2160
02:15:57,320 --> 02:16:00,160
Speaker 1: be in the game to win it. It's great to

2161
02:16:00,200 --> 02:16:02,760
Speaker 1: go on the road. Let's talk about the acts that

2162
02:16:02,840 --> 02:16:07,600
Speaker 1: are really not Spotify Top fifty acts, new acts, not

2163
02:16:07,760 --> 02:16:09,640
Speaker 1: you or you made it a tail end of the

2164
02:16:09,680 --> 02:16:15,360
Speaker 1: old thing. They can be fantastic. It takes longer than

2165
02:16:15,440 --> 02:16:17,960
Speaker 1: ever to break through. As we all know, most of

2166
02:16:18,000 --> 02:16:22,840
Speaker 1: them no breakthrough, but some do. Okay. None of those

2167
02:16:22,880 --> 02:16:26,280
Speaker 1: acts are Internet savvy. They all say, oh, I'm a musician,

2168
02:16:26,920 --> 02:16:29,480
Speaker 1: I don't do that. I got a team for that.

2169
02:16:30,320 --> 02:16:34,320
Speaker 1: The joke is on them because this is where the

2170
02:16:34,360 --> 02:16:39,320
Speaker 1: active audience is the one thing you're looking for. Your virality.

2171
02:16:39,400 --> 02:16:44,240
Speaker 1: The term is way overused. But this is what people

2172
02:16:44,240 --> 02:16:47,000
Speaker 1: don't realize. I quote this all the time. I ripped

2173
02:16:47,000 --> 02:16:50,400
Speaker 1: it out of Newsweek thirty years ago. I had it,

2174
02:16:51,000 --> 02:16:54,360
Speaker 1: don't have it anymore. But there's this mozart expert, she's

2175
02:16:54,440 --> 02:16:58,600
Speaker 1: really big in a world not my world. Meets Jeita

2176
02:16:59,240 --> 02:17:02,320
Speaker 1: and she says, I teach a lot. I tell my

2177
02:17:03,240 --> 02:17:06,520
Speaker 1: students to practice a long time and be great because

2178
02:17:06,560 --> 02:17:09,920
Speaker 1: there's very few great things out there, and if you're great,

2179
02:17:10,200 --> 02:17:14,760
Speaker 1: people will find you. We are dying to tell people

2180
02:17:14,800 --> 02:17:18,119
Speaker 1: we saw something great. Dying. We don't want to get paid.

2181
02:17:18,120 --> 02:17:21,800
Speaker 1: We just want to say, did you see that? Okay?

2182
02:17:22,360 --> 02:17:24,840
Speaker 1: And in the music world, listen, there are a lot

2183
02:17:24,879 --> 02:17:26,480
Speaker 1: of people who say, oh, I went this, and you go.

2184
02:17:27,280 --> 02:17:29,640
Speaker 1: And you don't trust them because they thinks everything's great.

2185
02:17:29,879 --> 02:17:32,920
Speaker 1: You have something unique? Do I think if you started

2186
02:17:33,040 --> 02:17:35,959
Speaker 1: using it on TikTok tomorrow you'd instantly blow up big.

2187
02:17:36,720 --> 02:17:39,760
Speaker 1: Probably not, but if you're not in the game, you

2188
02:17:39,760 --> 02:17:41,080
Speaker 1: have no chance of breaking.

2189
02:17:41,360 --> 02:17:44,800
Speaker 2: It's true. It's true. I did just get my one

2190
02:17:44,879 --> 02:17:50,520
Speaker 2: hundred thousand YouTube subscribers award, so I'm not doing not that.

2191
02:17:51,040 --> 02:17:54,840
Speaker 1: As I'm trying to say, is TikTok is where it's.

2192
02:17:54,720 --> 02:18:01,240
Speaker 2: At no I get I know, I appreciate the kickut

2193
02:18:01,240 --> 02:18:03,760
Speaker 2: of the RS because I know you're right and you have.

2194
02:18:03,840 --> 02:18:07,960
Speaker 1: The right personality and music for it. That is so rare.

2195
02:18:09,800 --> 02:18:11,960
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, you've persuaded.

2196
02:18:11,560 --> 02:18:13,640
Speaker 1: Go on TikTok just to get a feel. You have

2197
02:18:13,720 --> 02:18:16,600
Speaker 1: to be on the other and look at this guy, Jesse.

2198
02:18:16,959 --> 02:18:19,240
Speaker 2: Do I have to download it? Do I have to

2199
02:18:19,280 --> 02:18:19,800
Speaker 2: look at it?

2200
02:18:21,040 --> 02:18:21,200
Speaker 1: Oh?

2201
02:18:21,200 --> 02:18:23,120
Speaker 2: Can I just make stuff for it? Do I have

2202
02:18:23,160 --> 02:18:23,720
Speaker 2: to look at it.

2203
02:18:24,120 --> 02:18:28,080
Speaker 1: To at it? For a couple of reasons, One, okay,

2204
02:18:29,040 --> 02:18:31,879
Speaker 1: you get on it and it takes a while to

2205
02:18:32,040 --> 02:18:34,160
Speaker 1: learn what your interests are.

2206
02:18:34,400 --> 02:18:36,720
Speaker 2: Yes, you have to understand it, right, They have.

2207
02:18:36,840 --> 02:18:40,440
Speaker 1: To understand you, and then it will show you stuff

2208
02:18:40,879 --> 02:18:43,760
Speaker 1: you didn't know you were interested in that you love.

2209
02:18:44,160 --> 02:18:47,200
Speaker 1: No other platform is like this. I'm on TikTok. They

2210
02:18:47,200 --> 02:18:50,760
Speaker 1: start showing me car repair videos. I don't know how

2211
02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:53,360
Speaker 1: to repair a car. I'm never going to repair my

2212
02:18:53,440 --> 02:18:59,119
Speaker 1: own car whatever, But I find this shit riveting. Okay.

2213
02:19:00,240 --> 02:19:07,200
Speaker 2: Another thing, I'm like, I'm addicted to this chiropractor. But

2214
02:19:08,000 --> 02:19:10,840
Speaker 2: and I just fucking watched this chiropractor for like an

2215
02:19:10,840 --> 02:19:11,720
Speaker 2: hour and a half.

2216
02:19:11,760 --> 02:19:16,400
Speaker 1: But when you go on changing people's lives very quickly.

2217
02:19:17,000 --> 02:19:20,880
Speaker 1: You will learn what works and doesn't work. To be

2218
02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:25,400
Speaker 1: a musician, you have to pay your dues. Most people

2219
02:19:25,480 --> 02:19:29,039
Speaker 1: don't want to pay their dues, and today they're using shortcuts.

2220
02:19:29,280 --> 02:19:32,680
Speaker 1: Whether it be you know, it could be electronic instruments,

2221
02:19:32,680 --> 02:19:36,800
Speaker 1: but it also be writers, producers, etc. You have people

2222
02:19:37,000 --> 02:19:42,920
Speaker 1: on TikTok exhibiting what creativity it is mind blowing. Yes,

2223
02:19:43,200 --> 02:19:45,400
Speaker 1: you have people on there saying, let me tell you

2224
02:19:45,400 --> 02:19:47,160
Speaker 1: the story of my date. Let me tell you the

2225
02:19:47,160 --> 02:19:49,400
Speaker 1: story of the divorce. Okay, then go to see other

2226
02:19:49,440 --> 02:19:52,359
Speaker 1: things in go this person has a ton of personality.

2227
02:19:53,000 --> 02:19:55,560
Speaker 1: How did they tell the story this way?

2228
02:19:57,040 --> 02:19:59,520
Speaker 2: I mean part of it is you sort of have

2229
02:19:59,600 --> 02:20:01,920
Speaker 2: to have some one filming you all the time, and

2230
02:20:01,959 --> 02:20:05,120
Speaker 2: I don't have that person. You've got to pay that

2231
02:20:05,240 --> 02:20:08,080
Speaker 2: first you have a smartphone, and then but also then

2232
02:20:08,120 --> 02:20:12,280
Speaker 2: if I'm just doing it myself, like there's part of me,

2233
02:20:12,640 --> 02:20:14,840
Speaker 2: the part of me that fights just going I don't

2234
02:20:14,959 --> 02:20:20,040
Speaker 2: want my immediate response to something cool to be let's

2235
02:20:20,080 --> 02:20:20,600
Speaker 2: film it.

2236
02:20:21,640 --> 02:20:25,800
Speaker 1: But I know what you and I agree with a smartphone.

2237
02:20:25,800 --> 02:20:30,679
Speaker 1: The latest smartphones are you know, four K. They're unbelievable. Okay,

2238
02:20:30,840 --> 02:20:33,320
Speaker 1: you can buy a little tripod if you need, you know,

2239
02:20:33,480 --> 02:20:37,720
Speaker 1: you can use books, you can Amazon.

2240
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:41,000
Speaker 2: Just promise me, I'm not going to be one of

2241
02:20:41,000 --> 02:20:44,119
Speaker 2: these people who fucking falls off Niagara Falls while I'm

2242
02:20:44,200 --> 02:20:46,160
Speaker 2: videoing myself. I don't want to die.

2243
02:20:46,240 --> 02:20:52,640
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no no, don't. Don't. You have to have

2244
02:20:52,680 --> 02:20:57,160
Speaker 1: the modern tent. Noalitay, the old school social media. Tell

2245
02:20:57,160 --> 02:21:00,080
Speaker 1: me what you ate for breakfast, Give me a travel

2246
02:21:00,560 --> 02:21:03,840
Speaker 1: How are you making your album? Forget all that that

2247
02:21:04,000 --> 02:21:07,400
Speaker 1: is over? Okay, it's not a peek into your life

2248
02:21:07,800 --> 02:21:12,720
Speaker 1: for fans to know more. It's about exhibiting some creativity

2249
02:21:12,760 --> 02:21:13,400
Speaker 1: in your vein.

2250
02:21:15,080 --> 02:21:15,360
Speaker 2: Okay.

2251
02:21:15,360 --> 02:21:20,520
Speaker 1: I mean you may not do this, okay, but okay.

2252
02:21:20,840 --> 02:21:23,160
Speaker 1: There could be something in the news. You get an idea,

2253
02:21:23,480 --> 02:21:26,520
Speaker 1: you write a song that you post it. You're never

2254
02:21:26,560 --> 02:21:30,120
Speaker 1: gonna sing the song again, that's right. Or you could

2255
02:21:30,120 --> 02:21:34,680
Speaker 1: say I came into the hotel room, somebody's banging on

2256
02:21:34,720 --> 02:21:37,440
Speaker 1: the wall. I've been in too many hotel rooms. Let

2257
02:21:37,480 --> 02:21:40,080
Speaker 1: me tell you this story. I mean, just because you're inspired.

2258
02:21:40,120 --> 02:21:44,640
Speaker 1: If you're second guessing what the audience wants, you're done.

2259
02:21:44,879 --> 02:21:48,280
Speaker 1: Don't so it's your personality. I've been talking to you

2260
02:21:48,360 --> 02:21:51,680
Speaker 1: for two hours. Okay, what do I know you have

2261
02:21:51,720 --> 02:21:55,240
Speaker 1: a personality. It's not wimpy, and you can tell a

2262
02:21:55,280 --> 02:21:58,920
Speaker 1: story that puts you, that puts you ahead of a

2263
02:21:58,959 --> 02:22:03,520
Speaker 1: million people. The thing is you have a slight edge.

2264
02:22:03,720 --> 02:22:05,760
Speaker 1: And I used to I like to use the you

2265
02:22:05,800 --> 02:22:09,199
Speaker 1: know the concept of bell Crow. Delcrow has these little

2266
02:22:09,240 --> 02:22:13,520
Speaker 1: hooks and these little things. If there's no edge, nothing

2267
02:22:13,560 --> 02:22:18,880
Speaker 1: can hook you. So you have that little edge, you know.

2268
02:22:19,000 --> 02:22:19,480
Speaker 2: It's like.

2269
02:22:21,560 --> 02:22:24,080
Speaker 1: The bland artists are never I'm not gonna say you're

2270
02:22:24,120 --> 02:22:28,080
Speaker 1: super edgy, but doing something bland to appeal to a

2271
02:22:28,080 --> 02:22:31,600
Speaker 1: lot of people no longer works. You said it yourself,

2272
02:22:31,680 --> 02:22:35,400
Speaker 1: you go. If you want what I've got, you can't

2273
02:22:35,440 --> 02:22:39,560
Speaker 1: get it anywhere else. Does everybody want what I've got? No,

2274
02:22:40,160 --> 02:22:42,400
Speaker 1: the more people want what I've got, they aren't aware

2275
02:22:42,400 --> 02:22:46,320
Speaker 1: of it. Yes, okay, I got two final questions to

2276
02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:51,840
Speaker 1: let you go. One. In this journey, especially from university

2277
02:22:52,120 --> 02:22:54,680
Speaker 1: to getting your record deal, everything could given up.

2278
02:22:58,000 --> 02:23:05,879
Speaker 2: Not then. No, there was absolutely zero plan B. And

2279
02:23:05,959 --> 02:23:13,560
Speaker 2: I I really enjoyed the struggle. I found it purposeful,

2280
02:23:13,720 --> 02:23:17,320
Speaker 2: I found it exciting. It was an adventure. I didn't

2281
02:23:17,360 --> 02:23:18,840
Speaker 2: know where it was going to take me next. I

2282
02:23:18,879 --> 02:23:21,600
Speaker 2: loved just you know, jumping on the train or the bus,

2283
02:23:21,680 --> 02:23:24,640
Speaker 2: or having to sleep on the floor, or I really

2284
02:23:24,720 --> 02:23:27,200
Speaker 2: really enjoyed it. And there was definitely times where I

2285
02:23:27,280 --> 02:23:32,520
Speaker 2: was really frustrated because I couldn't get my music in

2286
02:23:32,560 --> 02:23:34,720
Speaker 2: front of the right people. I couldn't get, you know,

2287
02:23:35,920 --> 02:23:38,520
Speaker 2: having not being able to open the doors to be

2288
02:23:38,680 --> 02:23:40,760
Speaker 2: but I always had to say where I could just

2289
02:23:41,160 --> 02:23:44,600
Speaker 2: play for them, they could hear it. I reckon it

2290
02:23:44,600 --> 02:23:46,320
Speaker 2: would work, but I just couldn't get in front of

2291
02:23:46,320 --> 02:23:47,920
Speaker 2: the people that I needed to get in front of.

2292
02:23:48,520 --> 02:23:53,760
Speaker 2: But it felt it felt like I was writing a

2293
02:23:53,760 --> 02:23:56,879
Speaker 2: good story all of that, you know, while I was

2294
02:23:56,920 --> 02:24:00,959
Speaker 2: trying to get there. But I've definitely had after being

2295
02:24:00,959 --> 02:24:04,440
Speaker 2: successful that I didn't want to do it.

2296
02:24:05,000 --> 02:24:08,000
Speaker 1: You didn't want to do it just to put a

2297
02:24:08,000 --> 02:24:12,240
Speaker 1: bow on it, not because you weren't successful, It was

2298
02:24:12,320 --> 02:24:13,760
Speaker 1: more it wasn't working for you.

2299
02:24:16,480 --> 02:24:20,200
Speaker 2: I think both. I definitely went through a period of

2300
02:24:20,240 --> 02:24:23,920
Speaker 2: time of being quite bitter where I felt like I

2301
02:24:24,000 --> 02:24:27,080
Speaker 2: should be doing better than I was, and I deserved

2302
02:24:27,160 --> 02:24:31,280
Speaker 2: to be doing better than I was. And that's nasty.

2303
02:24:31,400 --> 02:24:34,360
Speaker 2: That's a nasty thing to feel, and that turns you

2304
02:24:34,400 --> 02:24:38,720
Speaker 2: into an unpleasant person. And I know other musicians who

2305
02:24:38,920 --> 02:24:42,640
Speaker 2: who certainly feel that way, that they feel like they

2306
02:24:42,680 --> 02:24:45,920
Speaker 2: should be entitled to a more successful career than they have,

2307
02:24:46,560 --> 02:24:48,560
Speaker 2: and that's a bad feeling to have.

2308
02:24:49,480 --> 02:24:50,480
Speaker 1: How do you get over that?

2309
02:24:51,920 --> 02:24:54,720
Speaker 2: You can have a word for yourself. You're being an asshole.

2310
02:24:55,160 --> 02:24:58,320
Speaker 2: You're being an asshole. And even now I'm like, I

2311
02:24:58,360 --> 02:25:03,240
Speaker 2: see other artists, you know, going it's so hard and

2312
02:25:03,520 --> 02:25:07,039
Speaker 2: I should we should get paid more, and it's so

2313
02:25:07,160 --> 02:25:10,800
Speaker 2: expensive to tour, and it's like, well, yeah, okay, there's

2314
02:25:10,840 --> 02:25:13,360
Speaker 2: some unfairness, but you've got to be really fucking good

2315
02:25:13,680 --> 02:25:16,120
Speaker 2: as well. You've got to be You've got to be

2316
02:25:16,200 --> 02:25:18,920
Speaker 2: someone people want to pay their money to come and see,

2317
02:25:19,480 --> 02:25:21,920
Speaker 2: and you've got a responsibility to put on a really,

2318
02:25:21,959 --> 02:25:24,760
Speaker 2: really fucking good show if you want people to go

2319
02:25:24,800 --> 02:25:26,680
Speaker 2: to work all week and then spend their cash on

2320
02:25:26,720 --> 02:25:30,680
Speaker 2: your ticket. Don't think that you don't. It's not on you,

2321
02:25:31,120 --> 02:25:36,840
Speaker 2: incumbent on you to write really good material, make it

2322
02:25:36,879 --> 02:25:39,000
Speaker 2: sound really good on a record, and make it sound

2323
02:25:39,040 --> 02:25:42,920
Speaker 2: even better when you play it live. So I think

2324
02:25:43,000 --> 02:25:46,360
Speaker 2: it was having a word with myself, getting happy on

2325
02:25:46,400 --> 02:25:48,600
Speaker 2: the inside, get sorting my own shit out. So I

2326
02:25:48,680 --> 02:25:52,720
Speaker 2: wasn't blaming other people and blaming circumstances for why I

2327
02:25:52,760 --> 02:26:01,320
Speaker 2: didn't feel good, and then really having a spiritual reconnection

2328
02:26:02,959 --> 02:26:07,400
Speaker 2: with extremely deep gratitude that I'm one of the very

2329
02:26:07,520 --> 02:26:09,480
Speaker 2: very few people on this planet that gets to do

2330
02:26:09,520 --> 02:26:13,000
Speaker 2: this as a job and get to do this successfully

2331
02:26:13,080 --> 02:26:16,280
Speaker 2: and have a relationship with fans, and you are so

2332
02:26:17,000 --> 02:26:20,000
Speaker 2: lucky to do what you love doing for a job,

2333
02:26:20,120 --> 02:26:23,440
Speaker 2: because everybody would want that, and very few people get it.

2334
02:26:23,480 --> 02:26:27,240
Speaker 1: Okay, you talked about loving the struggle prior to getting

2335
02:26:27,240 --> 02:26:32,000
Speaker 1: your record deal. You're enjoying the struggle. Were you convinced

2336
02:26:32,000 --> 02:26:32,959
Speaker 1: you were going to make it?

2337
02:26:36,600 --> 02:26:43,160
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's very kind of gaseous term make it,

2338
02:26:43,200 --> 02:26:43,800
Speaker 2: isn't it.

2339
02:26:43,800 --> 02:26:46,240
Speaker 1: It's not you're going to achieve whatever goal you had.

2340
02:26:47,720 --> 02:26:53,240
Speaker 2: I was definitely ambitious, for sure, but I really did

2341
02:26:53,240 --> 02:26:59,480
Speaker 2: not have any expectations, nor did I have particular dreams

2342
02:26:59,600 --> 02:27:02,440
Speaker 2: about doing as well as I did. I did not

2343
02:27:02,640 --> 02:27:04,640
Speaker 2: expect to do as well as I did. I did

2344
02:27:04,680 --> 02:27:06,800
Speaker 2: not know anybody who'd done as well as I did.

2345
02:27:08,720 --> 02:27:14,520
Speaker 2: And I think really the driver for me was I

2346
02:27:14,560 --> 02:27:17,199
Speaker 2: wanted to be a musician, not have to have another job.

2347
02:27:17,400 --> 02:27:20,240
Speaker 2: That was the dream. I just I wanted to do

2348
02:27:20,440 --> 02:27:24,920
Speaker 2: music as a living and if that meant I remember

2349
02:27:25,000 --> 02:27:26,160
Speaker 2: like arguing with my mom.

2350
02:27:26,360 --> 02:27:26,560
Speaker 1: You know.

2351
02:27:26,720 --> 02:27:32,360
Speaker 2: She was just like, this is insane. You shouldn't expect

2352
02:27:32,440 --> 02:27:34,400
Speaker 2: to do what you love for a living. That's what

2353
02:27:34,440 --> 02:27:36,360
Speaker 2: hobbies are for, you know. You need to get a

2354
02:27:36,360 --> 02:27:38,960
Speaker 2: proper job. They were very worried about me, especially as

2355
02:27:39,000 --> 02:27:41,920
Speaker 2: I'm you know, getting close to thirty and I don't

2356
02:27:41,920 --> 02:27:47,640
Speaker 2: have any money. And I said, I watched you be

2357
02:27:47,760 --> 02:27:52,640
Speaker 2: a teacher, and I don't believe that you've loved that job.

2358
02:27:53,879 --> 02:27:55,800
Speaker 2: And she was like, no, it's a difficult job. And

2359
02:27:55,840 --> 02:27:59,360
Speaker 2: I was like, well, it's not that it's difficult. It's

2360
02:27:59,440 --> 02:28:02,000
Speaker 2: just that I would prefer to not go on holiday,

2361
02:28:02,280 --> 02:28:05,600
Speaker 2: not go out for dinner, not have nice new clothes,

2362
02:28:06,080 --> 02:28:08,440
Speaker 2: and do what I love every day. I don't want

2363
02:28:08,440 --> 02:28:11,520
Speaker 2: to work a job that I fucking hate and have

2364
02:28:11,560 --> 02:28:14,800
Speaker 2: a two week holiday and have some money. I would

2365
02:28:14,840 --> 02:28:18,920
Speaker 2: prefer to be poor and do this because I'm going

2366
02:28:19,000 --> 02:28:23,160
Speaker 2: to be miserable. I'm going to die regretful if I

2367
02:28:23,200 --> 02:28:27,920
Speaker 2: don't spend my life as a musician. And so I

2368
02:28:28,120 --> 02:28:32,680
Speaker 2: was so the make it. Part of it was just

2369
02:28:32,800 --> 02:28:34,560
Speaker 2: to not have to do another job.

2370
02:28:35,160 --> 02:28:38,800
Speaker 1: Okay, what I think is the final question, how do

2371
02:28:38,840 --> 02:28:41,640
Speaker 1: you perform on stage with this hearing problem.

2372
02:28:46,600 --> 02:28:48,840
Speaker 2: It's cheaper than it used to be because I only

2373
02:28:48,879 --> 02:28:54,240
Speaker 2: need one wedge, so I just have a wedge on

2374
02:28:54,280 --> 02:28:57,959
Speaker 2: my right hand side. It's awesome. It's much easier. It

2375
02:28:58,080 --> 02:29:00,680
Speaker 2: was the hardest part about the hearing loss was that

2376
02:29:00,760 --> 02:29:04,280
Speaker 2: I got vertical, a really bad vertigo. For three months

2377
02:29:04,320 --> 02:29:07,120
Speaker 2: after I lost my hearing, I couldn't walk. I was

2378
02:29:07,160 --> 02:29:09,920
Speaker 2: like having to hold the sink while I'm brushing my

2379
02:29:09,959 --> 02:29:13,240
Speaker 2: teeth because I was going to fall over. It was grim.

2380
02:29:14,040 --> 02:29:16,800
Speaker 2: It was the grimmest thing I've ever experienced. And I

2381
02:29:16,920 --> 02:29:19,720
Speaker 2: really feel so bad for people who suffer with vertico

2382
02:29:19,760 --> 02:29:24,600
Speaker 2: because it's completely debilitating and you don't know if it's

2383
02:29:24,800 --> 02:29:26,400
Speaker 2: you don't know if it's going to go away. I

2384
02:29:26,440 --> 02:29:27,800
Speaker 2: didn't know if that was it for the rest of

2385
02:29:27,800 --> 02:29:30,920
Speaker 2: my life. It's just horrendous. I was so nauseous and

2386
02:29:30,959 --> 02:29:35,840
Speaker 2: I couldn't really you know, you can't really drive, and

2387
02:29:35,959 --> 02:29:40,000
Speaker 2: I couldn't really. I couldn't stand on stage for three months.

2388
02:29:40,000 --> 02:29:43,680
Speaker 2: I was definitely out of action. And the first gig

2389
02:29:43,720 --> 02:29:48,160
Speaker 2: I did after it started to obey, I was nervous

2390
02:29:48,280 --> 02:29:51,320
Speaker 2: that I was going to fall over. And I got

2391
02:29:51,360 --> 02:29:53,600
Speaker 2: through it, and that was great. I got through it.

2392
02:29:53,959 --> 02:29:57,280
Speaker 2: And then it just slowly improved and improved. I don't

2393
02:29:57,360 --> 02:30:01,680
Speaker 2: I can't do roller coasters and stuff anymore, but I

2394
02:30:01,760 --> 02:30:07,360
Speaker 2: don't suffer from vertigo anymore. And honestly, when that stopped,

2395
02:30:07,760 --> 02:30:10,080
Speaker 2: I could give a shit about having both my ears.

2396
02:30:10,120 --> 02:30:14,360
Speaker 2: I was like, as long as that has stopped, I'm

2397
02:30:14,400 --> 02:30:19,040
Speaker 2: good and listen. I have tenetus's annoying. I can hear

2398
02:30:19,040 --> 02:30:23,439
Speaker 2: it all the time. I have not got stereo hearing anymore.

2399
02:30:23,720 --> 02:30:29,279
Speaker 2: I miss it. I remember loving hearing panned backing vocals

2400
02:30:29,280 --> 02:30:33,000
Speaker 2: and how nice that was. But as my producer friends

2401
02:30:33,000 --> 02:30:35,520
Speaker 2: tell me, all the best records were made in Monomi.

2402
02:30:36,200 --> 02:30:45,040
Speaker 2: So it's really not impacted me very much at all.

2403
02:30:45,200 --> 02:30:47,560
Speaker 2: I can do everything that I used to do. I

2404
02:30:47,680 --> 02:30:49,959
Speaker 2: just I can't hear the person to my left to dinner.

2405
02:30:50,120 --> 02:30:53,360
Speaker 2: That's it. Otherwise, you know, I think it had it

2406
02:30:53,400 --> 02:30:56,039
Speaker 2: happened to me ten years earlier, it would have been

2407
02:30:56,400 --> 02:31:01,959
Speaker 2: really extremely challenging, because I'd and you know whatever, fifteen

2408
02:31:02,000 --> 02:31:06,640
Speaker 2: years of touring under my belt. I was actually, it

2409
02:31:06,720 --> 02:31:10,080
Speaker 2: might sound strange, but when it happened, there was actually

2410
02:31:10,280 --> 02:31:13,840
Speaker 2: some relief that I could stop for a while. And

2411
02:31:13,920 --> 02:31:18,000
Speaker 2: I was like, oh shit, I'm burnt out here. I've burnt.

2412
02:31:18,040 --> 02:31:20,240
Speaker 2: I've burnt my nervous system out, and I need to

2413
02:31:20,240 --> 02:31:23,360
Speaker 2: be more careful. And now it's a real reminder that

2414
02:31:23,400 --> 02:31:27,000
Speaker 2: I've got to look after myself. And I'm very very

2415
02:31:28,120 --> 02:31:31,520
Speaker 2: When I went there, I kept singing that Nina Simone song.

2416
02:31:31,840 --> 02:31:35,880
Speaker 3: Got mass, got my liver, I got my blood.

2417
02:31:36,360 --> 02:31:39,280
Speaker 2: I was like, I can walk, I can see, I

2418
02:31:39,320 --> 02:31:44,000
Speaker 2: can still hear, I'm healthy, I'm good. It could have

2419
02:31:44,080 --> 02:31:46,920
Speaker 2: been so much worse. There's so much worse things that

2420
02:31:46,959 --> 02:31:47,600
Speaker 2: could have happened.

2421
02:31:48,760 --> 02:31:50,720
Speaker 1: Okay, I think we've come to the end of the

2422
02:31:50,720 --> 02:31:54,120
Speaker 1: feeling we've known. I want to thank you Katie for

2423
02:31:54,320 --> 02:31:59,119
Speaker 1: telling your stories and ensuring your life with my audience.

2424
02:31:59,160 --> 02:32:00,440
Speaker 1: So thanks for taking the time.

2425
02:32:00,959 --> 02:32:03,520
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Bob, Thank you for what you do.

2426
02:32:03,879 --> 02:32:08,600
Speaker 2: It's a constant in a crazy world, and your love

2427
02:32:08,640 --> 02:32:12,800
Speaker 2: of music pervades. It's really really cool and it's an

2428
02:32:12,800 --> 02:32:15,520
Speaker 2: honor to be on the show. Thanks for everyone listening.

2429
02:32:15,600 --> 02:32:19,120
Speaker 2: And it's been really great talking about all this stuff.

2430
02:32:19,120 --> 02:32:20,480
Speaker 2: I've really loved it.

2431
02:32:20,480 --> 02:32:23,879
Speaker 1: It certainly has. Till next time. This is Bob Last