1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha. I'd welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: I never told you production of I Heart Radio. All right, 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: So we're gonna start this one with content warning right 4 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: at the top because we're going to be discussing abuse, 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: a domestic abuse, specifically trauma and me too. Though nothing 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: at two in depth. Um, and this one is very 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: complicated and constantly changing, So time stamp. We are recording 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: this July two, and I believe it's going to be 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: at least a week before it comes out, and possibly 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: more so a lot could change, Like this morning, I 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: woke up, we're talking about the Amber heard Johnny Depp trial. 12 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: I woke up this morning and because I've been researching this, 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: my phone was like new updates Yeah, okay, which I 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: did include, But at the point being, and it is 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: changing a lot, right, Yeah, There's a lot of opinions 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: out there, and it's a lot of back and forth. 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: And we will say both Annie and I have been 18 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: deliberately staying away from commentating on it because there's a 19 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: lot of uncertainty and with sensitive cases like this, especially 20 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: in the field like hours, we want to make sure 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: we are not speaking out too quickly when it shouldn't 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: be so not that people care our opinions, but I 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: know it could be like this is a big deal, 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: why are you talking about it? Type of conversation, And 25 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: it's kind of one of those like we want to 26 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: wait and see what's happening, and there's a lot to 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: factor in, and we also need to know how sensitive 28 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: and how this can affect UH policy around the world, 29 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: which it has. But we'll keep going. Yes, I mean, 30 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: it is extremely complicated, and mostly we're going to be 31 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: focusing on sort of the fallout of this and why 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: it's so complicated. But yeah, one last note. We are 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: not lawyers, UM. We're just going to explain what happens, um, 34 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: and why has had an impact already in the world 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: of me too, and what it means for the future, 36 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: what could mean for the future. Okay, so, yes, we're 37 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: talking about this trial between Amber Heard and Johnny Depp. 38 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: But let's start with some basics, UM. So Heard in 39 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: depth first met on the set of The Rum Diary 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine. Um. She is over twenty years 41 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: younger than him, UM, and so she was on like 42 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: the rise in her career, but he was already well 43 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: known to the American people at this time. Um, something 44 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: that is certainly at play in this whole thing where 45 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: he'd come back to that. Um. They started dating in 46 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: twelve and got married in ten. Heard filed for divorce. 47 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: Days later. She requested and received a restraining order against 48 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: Depth due to domestic violence. Um. Depth lawyer accused her 49 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: of trying to get more money from Depth. She did 50 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: receive a seven million dollar settlement, but donated it to 51 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: the a c l U and the Children's Hospital of 52 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, though recently has come to light that not 53 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: all of it, perhaps five hundred thousand of it came 54 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: from Elon Musk, whom she briefly dated after Depth. Again, 55 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: new information all the time coming out, but the a 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: COLU has released a statement about that that you can 57 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: check out. Okay, so this isn't the first time we've 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: seen herd in Depth in court. A couple of years ago, 59 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: Depth lost a UK libel case against the Sun when 60 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: HERD provided evidence in support of the publications claims that 61 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: Depp beat her. They called him a wife beater. Um. 62 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: Even though historically the odds were against her like this 63 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: was a really difficult case for her to win in 64 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: the UK. Specifically and again that's the legal thing that 65 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: are at about. I trust the experts when they say it, 66 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: but I am not an expert. Yes um. In light 67 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: of this evidence, twelve of the fourteen instances of domestic 68 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: violence against her was proven to have taken place, or 69 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: the judge believed this was proof enough to prove that 70 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: they had taken place, and Judge Justice Nicol ruled that 71 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: The Sun's article about Depth was quote substantially true, and 72 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: further that she proved that coming forward against Depth quote 73 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: had a negative effect on her career as an actor 74 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: and activist. The judge dismissed depths claims that she was 75 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: a gold digger, saying, quote, her donation of seven million 76 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: dollars to charity is hardly the act one would expect 77 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: of a gold digger. He cited an email from Depth 78 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: that read, I have no mercy, no fear, and not 79 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: an ounce of emotion or what I once thought was 80 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: lovet for this gold digging, low level dime a dozen mushy, 81 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: pointless dangling over used flappy fish market. I can only 82 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: hope that Karma kicks in and takes the gift of 83 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: breath from her. Sorry man, but now I will stop 84 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: at nothing. He also texted actor Paul Bettany, let's drown 85 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: her before we burn her. I will her burnt corpse 86 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: afterwards to make sure she's dead. Um, the judge said, 87 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: quote I accept that she heard was the victim of 88 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: sustained and multiple assaults by Mr Depp in Australia. Is 89 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: a sign of the depth of his rage that he 90 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: admitted scrawling graffiti in blood from his injured finger, and 91 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: then when that was into fficient dipping his badly injured 92 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: finger and pain and continuing to write messages and other things. 93 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: I accept her evidence of the nature of the assaults 94 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: he committed against her. They must have been terrifying. I 95 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: accept that Mr Depp put her in fear of her life. 96 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: A lot of information herd provided was disturbing, including a 97 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: force quote cavity search for drugs, and at the time 98 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: her lawyer in the US promised even more evidence would 99 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: be presented at an upcoming trial here in the States. 100 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: So in this case, a Depth suit heard for defamation 101 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: for fifty million dollars over an op ed her published 102 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: in The Washington Post in eighteen about sexual violence and 103 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: in which she never actually mentions depth. Um and her 104 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: countersuit for one million. This was a civil suit specifically 105 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: tried in Virginia because of the state's libel laws. So 106 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: in the op ed headline quote, I spoke up against 107 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: sexual violence and faced our culture's wrath. That has to change, 108 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: um and Heard alleged that after she spoke up about 109 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: Depth abuse, she was dropped from a movie and a 110 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: fashion ad campaign, while Depp got a huge role in 111 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: the Fantastic Beast franchise, a role he was asked to 112 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: resign from after the Sun case. Um and largely outlets 113 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: like TNZ sided with Depth, but some feminist writers were 114 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: sounding the alarm. This was happening months before the election 115 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump and a year before the Weinstein accusations 116 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: really took off. When they did, more people were suddenly 117 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: paying attention to the fact that Herds felt the need 118 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: to get a restraining order from her ex husband. And 119 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: in eighteen Heard was named an ambassador for women's rights 120 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: by the a c l U. And this is when 121 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: she wrote that op ed that this whole thing is 122 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: about and it was in part in support of the 123 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: Violence Against Women's Act, which was dropped by Trump and 124 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: picked back up by um Biden. Yes, yes, yes, yes, 125 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: and we've talked about that in past episodes. In June, 126 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: a jury and Virginia rejected that evidence and more that 127 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: had worked in the UK and sided with Depth, even 128 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: though most experts thought that Depth's chances of winning the 129 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: case were lower than Herds. So what happened A lot 130 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: of experts think has to do with the fact that 131 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: the case was argued to a jury and the media coverage. 132 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: According to international media lawyer Mark Stevens, because the US 133 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: trial was before a jury, it allowed Depth's lawyers to 134 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: focus on Herd. They deny that their client did anything. 135 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: They deny they're the real perpetrator, and they attack the 136 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: credibility of the individual calling out the abuse, and then 137 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: reverse the rules of the victim and the offender. He 138 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: also pointed out that Depth's team was more experienced than 139 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: Herds and arguing libel cases. Specifically, Yeah, I think if 140 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: you heard any part of the trial it felt that way. 141 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if you of like, huh. Interesting. So 142 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,679 Speaker 1: though the jury reached the verdict that Heard and Depth 143 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: defamed each other, they sided far more with Depth, supporting 144 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: all three of his defamation claims versus only one of Herds. Uh. 145 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: This translated to an award of ten point three five 146 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: million dollars for Depth and two million for her. Her 147 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: lawyer promised that they would appeal, though hers petition for 148 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: a mistrial was just rejected. Yes, I just the news 149 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: I woke up to on my phone, right, But okay, 150 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: what's going on here? If heard had more evidence, why 151 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: did she lose? And yes, I know in a lot 152 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: of ways this is unfortunately rhetorical, and I've bet a 153 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: lot of you are like, oh, I know it already. 154 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,119 Speaker 1: But okay, we've seen it happen over and over again 155 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: to women after all, But let's still break down some 156 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: of it. A big part of this conversation is a 157 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: tactic frequently used by abusers called darvo, with many arguing 158 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: at that Depth and his team used this strategy. So 159 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: this was first introduced by Dr Jennifer fraide In and 160 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: this is a quote about it. Darva refers to reaction 161 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: perpetrators of wrongdoing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response 162 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVA stands for deny, 163 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: attack and reverse victim and offender. The perpetrator or offender 164 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: may deny the behavior attack the individual doing the confronting 165 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: and reverse the roles of victim and offender, such that 166 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true 167 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: victim or the whistleblower to an alleged offender. This occurs, 168 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role 169 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: of falsely accused and attacks the accusers of credibility and 170 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of false accusation. 171 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: So basically, the perpetrator is trying to make it more 172 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: difficult to determine who the quote real victim is, engaging 173 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: in behavior like downplaying the injuries of the victim while 174 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: exaggerating there's their own, and blaming the victim for the 175 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: abuser's actions. Some recent research into DARVO suggests women are 176 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: exposed to it more often, it is a purposeful strategy 177 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: used by the perpetrator when confronted with the victim, and 178 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: that it encourages self blame in the victim guest learning uh. 179 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: New research has also found that when people were exposed 180 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: to DARVO in case of abuse, they were less likely 181 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: to believe the victim. However, with some anti DARVO education, 182 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: people found the perpetrator less believable. Some argue Depths entire 183 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: case against the Washington Post was a Darvo strategy. Yes, Um, 184 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: and there has been a lot of argument about who, 185 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: if anyone, is employing Darvo in this particular case that 186 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: the consensus seems to be it is Depth. Um. He 187 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: has the power in the relationship. He's a powerful man, 188 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: he's older, he's richer, he's more famous. Um heard admitted 189 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: to hitting Depth and some of their altercations. And for 190 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: a lot of folks, that muddied the line between abuse 191 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: and abuser, which is a clear cut line that often 192 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: doesn't exist in reality, but a lot of people think 193 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: that it does. Um. And, of course men can be 194 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: and are victims of violence and abuse, but many think 195 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: that truth was manipulated for Depth by Depth. The trial 196 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: has been used both in good faith to showcase that 197 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: men can in fact be victims of abuse UM and 198 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: don't report it due to stigma, but also in bad 199 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: faith by men's rights activists to drag down feminism as 200 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: the great evil that they view it to be. According 201 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: to mal magazine, He's try outfits neatly into a tapestry 202 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: of claims that men are under attack, woven alongside clumsy 203 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: narratives about false rape accusations and mother's lying to block 204 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: children from their fathers. Uh. Depth did provide evidence that 205 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: she had hit him previously, including an audio recording where 206 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: she appears to mock him for trying to put himself 207 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: in the place of the victim. She said, you can 208 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: tell people it was a fair fight, and then see 209 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: what the jury and judge thinks. Tell the world, Johnny, 210 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: tell them, Johnny Depp I a man. I'm a victim 211 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: too of domestic violence. It's a fair fight. And see 212 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: how many people believe or side with you. Well, and 213 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: here we are. But um and heard had a previous 214 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: incident in two thousand nine where she was arrested for 215 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: allegedly striking then girlfriend Tasa van Ree's arm. However, van 216 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: Ree came out in support of herd claiming the incident 217 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 1: was blown out of proportion due to misogyny and homophobia. 218 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: Uh oh okay, But this rings us to two other 219 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: big pieces of this case, the myth of the perfect 220 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: victim and how we perceive women in particularly women survivors 221 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: in court, which we did discuss in our Trauma Any series, Right, right, 222 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: So that's a good listen if you want to reminder, 223 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: didn't hear those um, But yeah, we've talked about the 224 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: perfect victim narrative before, but this is essentially the what 225 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: was she wearing? Was she promiscuous? Actually had some drinks 226 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: that bs that we always hear, and it did come 227 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: up in this. And that's not saying we should dismiss 228 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: what hurt is allegedly done. But the incredibly uneven support 229 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: Depth has gotten and the money he received compared to 230 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: what heard got um and based on the evidence we 231 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: had for both parties, that's I mean, that's pretty telling. 232 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: And the discourse seems to be she too did harm, 233 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: so everything she says is a lie, even if proof 234 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: seems to show that he did harm and most likely 235 00:12:46,480 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: more harm. But because she's not perfect, then it doesn't matter. Right. So, 236 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: according to an anonymous juror, Heard wasn't quite believable. And 237 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: they go on to say she would answer one question 238 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: and she would be crying, and two seconds later she 239 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: would turn ice cold. It didn't seem natural. Again, some 240 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: of the jurors called used the term crocodile tears for her. Meanwhile, 241 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: they said Depth seemed more genuine um. And this also 242 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: plays into how we believe survivors should behave and pervasive 243 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: rape myths and how we don't understand how trauma looks 244 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: or manifest as discussed extensively in our Trauma mini series 245 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: and our own experiences in trauma as well, because we 246 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: get a lot of comments about, yeah, this is inappropriate. Um. 247 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,239 Speaker 1: And it was interesting as they came on to be interviewed, 248 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: they just kept saying things like that, I just she 249 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: doesn't look like this, or she didn't do like I 250 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: thought she should, so therefore she's obviously lying, which is 251 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: a whole different conversation because as a person who was 252 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: on the stand, why would you want you know, like 253 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: it's kind of this back and forth, like what is 254 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: a believable person? Like there are signs as such, but 255 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: the whole time, you know, as I watched some of 256 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: the case, you have amber heard uh looking very inquisitive 257 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: or scared, as well as sometimes cold and very like focused, 258 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: which could be you know, however they wanted to must 259 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: translate that to Johnny Depp looking relaxed, making jokes, smiling, 260 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, all those things like is that really more believable? 261 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: Who knows? Right? And this was originally going to be 262 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: a bigger episode, but there was just so much to 263 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: impact with this alone, right, But it got me thinking 264 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: about when Dr Christine Placey forward came came forward and 265 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: how people picked apart her very in my opinion, professional performance. Um. 266 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: And then like, we recently saw Cassie Hutchison and Jamie 267 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: six hearings and I saw the same thing where I 268 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: feel like women, it's yeah, it's a damned if you do, 269 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: damned if you don't. We heard a lot of that 270 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: narrative around Hill that you couldn't too, like she's too cold, 271 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: she's too it feels like she's calculating. So much of 272 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: that is training you get because we get judged for 273 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: being emotional, right, So it's yeah, I mean, and I 274 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: don't know if this is like a just a stereotype 275 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: of what it looks like to be on law shows 276 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: or something like the constant law shows are like lawyers 277 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: training their clients to be a specific way and most 278 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: of the times telling women you don't look sympathetic if 279 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: you do this, like specifically, if you're too cold, if 280 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: you're too direct, don't do that. Mm hmmm. Yeah, And 281 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: I mean I can't say specifically for these women, but 282 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: for me that would get my head and then I 283 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: would become it would become sort of somewhat of a performance, 284 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: which would probably seem unnatural to people watching me. And 285 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: it is a performance because you are you try to 286 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: prepare for trial. That is the thing I had to 287 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: do that when we sat down and we talked about 288 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: the questions that we would get if we had like 289 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: any of these, and if I was stumbling, then therefore 290 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: I would look even more unprofessional. But yeah, it was 291 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: the whole thing. I found the whole narrative interesting because 292 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: of the way it was cited. Again it was either 293 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: she was cold or she had crocodile tears, made fake 294 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: tears exactly exactly. I can't when And Yeah, as mentioned, um, 295 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: the media really had to impact on this case, and 296 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: especially social media perhaps um because it did really capture 297 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: the attention of the media and the internet and then 298 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: pretty much everybody because of that, Court TV doubled their 299 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: daytime ratings when they broadcast the show. Yeah, I said, 300 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: show the case. Um, everyone had an opinion on it. 301 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: And when asked about the response on social media about 302 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: this whole case, Dr Fred said, what we have witnessed 303 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: in the US over this case has been an overwhelming 304 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: case for Depth on social media. It is like an 305 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: anti herd campaign and there has been a lot of darvo. 306 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: Every day. During the six week trial, hashtags like justice 307 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: for Johnny Depp were trending, and though the jurors were 308 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: not supposed to check social media surrounding the case, I mean, 309 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: how could they avoid it? Right? It was everywhere and 310 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: from team Vogue, they said, But instead of being relegated 311 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: to the deep corners of the Internet, your younger siblings 312 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: and parents and teachers are equally as likely to catch 313 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: an inflammatory TikTok or Facebook post about the trial as 314 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: anyone else. TikTok's mocking Herd are all over the app 315 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: and SNL even did a skit about the abuse trial 316 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: which they were like, what the hell are you doing? 317 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: Snl And according to NBC News, as a trial began, 318 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: quote posters on Twitter and TikTok have overwhelmingly backed Depth, 319 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: with hashtags like justice for Johnny Depp, racking up nearly 320 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: three billion views on TikTok. Similar hashtags have been tweeted 321 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: thousands of times. Meanwhile, Amber heard it's frequently called a liar, 322 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: a old digger, and quote Amber turn very very adult like. 323 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: There was also a TikTok trend addressing her that started 324 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: with quote, he could have killed you. He had every right. Um. 325 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: And even the celebrities got on board on this. It 326 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: was a lot more publicly speaking depths name like literally 327 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: they were talis about who was on whose side and 328 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: which celebrities were liking Post for justice, for depth and 329 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: all of these things. It was an interesting, really sad 330 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: take of the entire conversation. Um. But again going back 331 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: to the reminder, I'm we're gonna come back to this 332 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: point that this was about an article that did not 333 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: even mention his name. Yes, yes, um. And I don't 334 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: know if we made this entirely clear, but Dr Fade, 335 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: who had been mentioning throughout who came up with Darvo, 336 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 1: has been interviewed with a lot of this um and 337 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: so earlier, and we said, like, I believe it was her. 338 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: She she made the case. Like the whole Washington Post 339 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: Depth suing them at all was an instance of this, 340 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: because he was so angry about what happened in the 341 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: UK and what he perceived that to be as his 342 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: like reputation. UM. So like this entire case was a 343 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: very strategic um kind of instance of abuse. UM, because 344 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,479 Speaker 1: it's not easy. We're gonna talk about this later too, 345 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: but it's not easy to confront in court your abuser 346 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: and talk about this stuff. And it was it was 347 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: really ugly in a lot of ways. And speaking of 348 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: others have pointed out the toxic fandom kind of aspect 349 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: of this whole thing, choosing size, as you say, um, 350 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: something called mumification, where just a lot of people on 351 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: the Internet are making memes of Amber heard that are 352 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: pretty cool. Here's another quote from that article Online, the 353 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: controversy has taken on a creepy bent, being streamed means 354 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,239 Speaker 1: and opined on from TikTok to TV to Twitter, with 355 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: fandoms developing for each side. One screenshot shows the post 356 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: calling for viewers to like the post to support Depth 357 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: and retweet to support Herd, like it's the super Bowl 358 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: or something. Um. And then here's a quote from tech 359 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: journalist Ryan Broadwick. Basically, a lot of boring men think 360 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: Johnny Depp is cool. Zack Snyder fans think Amber Herd's 361 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: issues with depth have impacted the release of DC movies. 362 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: Harry Potter adults are mad that Depth was removed from 363 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: the Fantastic Beast franchise after he was accused of domestic violence, 364 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: and a lot of turns viciously defend anything online about 365 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: Harry Potter because of J. K. Rowlings increasingly public transphobia. 366 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: Others have pointed out that depth has many roles that 367 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: are beloved in comparison to herd, so many people wanted 368 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: to see him vindicated because he may have played some 369 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: of their favorite characters, right. I mean, that's definitely true, 370 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: and the fact that he resigned from Fantastic Beast was 371 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: one of the things that he used in the counter 372 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: in his suing. But it's interesting to the level of 373 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: fandom who would not let this go um and just 374 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: about how sexy was, Like the conversation about how sexy 375 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: you was, how daddy was it was weird, Like this 376 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: is not the moment again, it's kind of the serial 377 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: killer vibe. But but I'm not saying he's a serial killer. 378 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 1: I'm not saying the fans are that level. I'm just 379 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: saying that, like overall, like it almost made him more 380 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: desirable to be in this situation. Yeah, and I mean 381 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: the fact that we are going to talk about that 382 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: a bit more. But the fact that that even comes 383 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: out at all in a case of domestic abuse. But 384 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: he's so sexy, Like that's what that is. Like You're like, wait, 385 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: what just because so yeah, we'll go on to that. 386 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, on top of this, there's evidence Depth team 387 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: used bots to attack herd online, and conservative outlets have 388 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: sided with Depth too, with at least one spending millions 389 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: on advertisings against heard Um, and Fox Network is set 390 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: to air TMC documentary on the trial called Johnny Versus 391 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: Amber From Love to Hate. It's really showcases how we've 392 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: turned this into entertainment when real people, in real consequences 393 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: for others are involved. Yeah, this whole thing. There's a 394 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: big conversation about that fact that we've had previously about disinformation, 395 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: misinformation and campaigns where they are smearing people's characters and 396 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: this was you specifically to smear heard before the trial 397 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: even began. Yeah, And I think that's pretty telling. Like 398 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: if they Conservative Network spent millions on an advertising campaign 399 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: against her because she's involved in the trial domestic abuse trail, 400 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: I mean that's something's messed up with that, something is 401 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: off about that when there's a motive behind this, because 402 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: there's no real need. This is not like Johnny Depp's 403 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: running for president point in time? Is he? Wait? Is he? 404 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: And I'm just like, I'll just realize what I just 405 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: said and not kind of wondering. Okay. Yeah, So now 406 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: we wanted to wrap up with the fallout and implications, 407 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: and there are a lot and we're only going to 408 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: touch on some of them. But yeah, I think we 409 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: could come back and do a whole revisited this one, because, 410 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: as we said, what's still happening. So after this, as 411 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: it was ongoing and after a lot of people in 412 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: the me too space released some statements about it, many 413 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: saw the response to this case as a backlash to 414 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: the Me too movement and the Believe women hashtag. After 415 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: the verdict came down, activists and co founder of the 416 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: Me too movement, Toronto Burke, released the statement, the way 417 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: in which me too has been co opted and manipulated 418 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: during the Johnny Depp versus Amber her Child is a 419 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: toxic catastrophe, one of the biggest defamations of the movement 420 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: we have ever seen. Right Um and several have pointed 421 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: out that depth is the first a list sex sible 422 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: to come under fire from Me too and he has 423 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: won multiple Oscars and has been People's Sexiest Men Alive 424 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: three different times. Basically for decades, our culture has admired 425 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: and praised him, and that has primed many to side 426 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: with him. People want to believe he's innocent and have 427 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: given him far more of the benefit of the doubt. 428 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: Is absolutely he kind of was like America's sweetheart as 429 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: it as it will, like the sexiest men alive being 430 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: Jack Sparrow, Like he became iconic for his caricatures, and uh, 431 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: some of them are disturbing, the disturbing characters. Yeah, yeah, 432 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: And I mean we've already like, I've already primed as 433 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: much as the outcry has been um from these bots 434 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: are angry. Men were already primed in court to believe 435 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: min like and not to believe women. He already had 436 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: the advantage in that sense. But then he has like, yes, 437 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: all of these fans, people think he's attractive. He's played 438 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: the like favorite characters, like he had all of these 439 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: things in his favor right for this, and I do. 440 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: I was thinking, I said, I know I've told this 441 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: story before, but I wrote an essay about how much 442 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: I love Johnny Depp in high school, and now it 443 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: makes my stomach urb. I've never been a fan of 444 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: John Depth and I'm not really sure why. Uh, but yeah, 445 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: he's never been one that I like got my attention. 446 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: Um interesting enough, so for me it was just like okay, 447 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: So like whatever's okay. Yeah, And we've already seen some 448 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: really troubling hints at the future, especially when it comes 449 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: to abusers punishing victims for coming forward with defamation cases. Again, 450 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: this is already kind of under attack, under like a 451 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: Supreme Court level of being able to do civil suits 452 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: and defamation suits, not necessarily for the regular person, but 453 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot coming down on that, and I really 454 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: have concerns about what this looks like for possible survivors 455 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: in the future. Um. And after this case, Brian Warner 456 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: a k a. Marilyn Manson file the defamation case against 457 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: Evan Rachel Wood. Uh. And then you can see the 458 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: episode we did with bridget about this and don't forget 459 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: This entails a traumatizing force interaction between the abuse and 460 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: the victim survivor, including reliving past trauma and retelling the 461 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: past trauma and then being questioned repeatedly about it until 462 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: you start questioning it yourself, and experts warned the amount 463 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: of attention to trial God and the outcome is going 464 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: to send a message to all survivors, which it already 465 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: has and abusers watching um again, this has a lot 466 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: of that conversation when we see the backlash gas lighting, 467 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: victim blaming, so much more that's already difficult to get 468 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: past from jump um and the continued lines that cannot 469 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: be swells when people are saying, but there's a lot 470 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: of false reports which is completely and absolutely and utterly untrue. 471 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: So it is it's definitely caused for a lot of 472 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: um were we as well as the fact that yes, 473 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: if whatever happens with the Evan and Rachel Wood case, 474 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: this conversation talks about being able to speak out in general, um, 475 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: even if it isn't based on charging them or getting 476 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: them arrested, which is way more difficult. Exactly exactly, UM, 477 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: I read a very disturbing quote where somebody was saying, 478 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: like essentially of users everywhere like taking notes. Okay, got 479 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: it right, and also they should be mentioned apparently Depp 480 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: and Warner our friends in real life. Of course. I 481 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: saw he released a very hateful song about Amber heard 482 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: just a few days ago. Delightful, sounds wonderful. He being 483 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: dep I don't know about Warner, but oh, I thought 484 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: you meant Warner. I mean, who knows? Keep going okay. 485 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: According to Christine im Schwartz, who is the clinic director 486 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: at the Jane W. Wilson Family Justice Clinic at the 487 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: u J Law School, quote, I promise to you that 488 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: in the demographic I work with, there are abusers out 489 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: there right now telling victims. I'm going to pull a 490 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: dep on you. If you disclose, I will sue you. 491 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: It's a power and control threat that now has a 492 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: name attached to it. And sociologist Nicole Badera said, imagine 493 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: if in trying to talk to all of these people, 494 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: someone taking the perpetrator side said to you, if you 495 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: keep saying this stuff, he's going to sue you for defamation. 496 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: I guarantee you that's happening right now. Our friends and 497 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: family are saying to someone accused of sexual violence, you 498 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: could sue her. I guarantee you that people are saying 499 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: that right now, all across the country. She went on 500 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: to say, historically saying that your survivor of domestic violence 501 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: is qualified as protected speech, but that the defamation suit 502 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 1: against Amber Heard puts all of that in doubt. And 503 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: that's the big conversation is that she wrote an op 504 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: ed without truly naming them because he is famous. Because 505 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: the case had gone uh into the news, into media, 506 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: the people guessed it that she was sued. And that 507 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: is not the same thing as saying you're suing for 508 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: violence a civil suit because you've caused me stressed. This 509 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: was about him trying to get her to publicly be 510 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: humiliated so they could he could discredit her in an 511 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: op ed that really didn't name him. Yes, it was 512 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: about him obviously, come of the generic experience for her 513 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: in there in itself. Um, But now this is about 514 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: being able to write it not bed right. And and 515 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: and we've been talking about this a lot recently actually, 516 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: and I think some of the episodes haven't come out yet, 517 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: but we've been talking a lot about you know, celebrities 518 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: are people, So we've we've actually been talking about this 519 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: a lot lately. Celebrities are people, and just because your 520 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: celebrity doesn't mean you shouldn't be protected from writing an 521 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: op ed about an experience you had. But it also 522 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: was terrifying because she's as celebrity right, and it went 523 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: this way. She has more resources, She has more resources 524 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,719 Speaker 1: and able to defend herself. And then it went this 525 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: way anyway, because exactly it comes down to is whoever 526 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: has the most money most likely will win. Yeah, it 527 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: seems it seems yeah yeah. And experts have said that 528 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: this is a bleak reminder of a system that does 529 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: not offer our equal protections. Herd lawyer said the result 530 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: of the case sends a quote terrible message to women, 531 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: and that Herd told her she felt she had let 532 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: down women. Um here's a quote from her I'm heartbroken 533 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: that the amountain of evidence still was not enough to 534 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: stand up to the disproportionate power, influence and sway of 535 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: my ex husband. I'm even more disappointed with what this 536 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: verdict means for other women. It is a setback. It 537 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: sets back the clock to a time when a woman 538 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: who spoke up and spoke out could be publicly shamed 539 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: and humiliated. It sets back the idea that violence against 540 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: women is to be taken seriously. And going back to 541 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: Dr Freyde, she said, of all this, others who wish 542 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: to make claims will see what happened in this case 543 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: and see what has happened to her, and think twice 544 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: many will be afraid to talk, and many already are 545 00:30:55,320 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: afraid to talk. And again we're not talking about the 546 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: actual what happened between Heard and Depth. There is evidence 547 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: that they were toxic and abusive to each other. Um. 548 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: But this conversation is the bigger play about Yes, there's 549 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: a power, there is a way of wielding that power, 550 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: as well as the fact that it's silencing from people 551 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: speaking up. Um. But we know that Johnny Depp was 552 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: not quite either. Obviously when he went for the Sun 553 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: and trying to sue and all of that, he wasn't 554 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: being quiet, uh, and he was telling people as well 555 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: as letting people know on a professional level what was happening. 556 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: So I feel like again, like there was this back 557 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: and forth which both of them it was true. Ambery 558 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: Heard also lost opportunities as well, but maybe not as 559 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: much as he did because he was already a bigger 560 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: actor who was already eating more money and had more 561 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: power in the industry anyway, So there's this whole level 562 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: of conversation of like, sure it impacted Johnny Depp, but 563 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: it impacted her as well. Like again, it's kind of 564 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: same narrative of that gold digger trope, being like she 565 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: was making money and it was easy for her to 566 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,719 Speaker 1: do this. Um, any survivor of domestic moments will tell 567 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: you this is not something that gives you favor, right, right, 568 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about that too when we did 569 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: um the episode on Forever Ago on Black Widow and 570 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: kind of disnease response to Scarlett show Hanson being like, 571 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: you're just trying to get more money, and like, yeah, 572 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: she's trying to get what she's worth. Like I saw 573 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: the elements of that in here too, where people are like, well, 574 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: she's just a woman trying to get money, therefore she 575 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: automatically is bad, like not necessarily and that's not even 576 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: necessarily was going on. I think that's like one of 577 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: the things, as you were saying, Samantha, like this case 578 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: is complicated, but it did show us a lot of 579 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: these really harmful narratives around women and survivors rape, sexual 580 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: assault violence. It's just this whole plethora of really negative things. 581 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: And then the court of public opinion now it's still 582 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: so much skewed towards men, right, and be harmful, how 583 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: harmful this is and will be for other other people watching. Yeah, yeah, 584 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, I mean, I don't know, we're we are 585 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: going to have to do an update. I do know, 586 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: ever heard I think is writing a book about this, 587 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: and I think Johnny Depp is too, So it's gonna 588 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: get you, Ben Uglier, I'm sure. So, I'm sure we'll 589 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: be back for a revisit. Um. But that's what we 590 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: have to say about it for now. UM. As always, 591 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: if you have any topic, suggestion, listeners that you can 592 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: let us know, you can emails at stuff in your 593 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: mom Stuff at I heart mea dot com. You can 594 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on 595 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff What Never Told You. Thanks It's always 596 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, and special 597 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: thanks to researcher Joey this week, and thanks to you 598 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: for listening Stuff and Never Told You the protection of 599 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: by Heart Radio. 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