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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear.

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Speaker 2: Listening past, you can't predict.

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Speaker 1: Anything brought to you by first Light. When I'm hunting,

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Speaker 1: I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds, no compromise,

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Speaker 1: gear that keeps me in the field longer, no shortcuts,

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Speaker 1: just gear that works. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 1: dot com. That's f I R S T L I

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Speaker 1: T E dot com.

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Speaker 2: Holy Smokes.

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Speaker 1: Joined today by Senator Martin Heinert from New Mexico. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Randall Williams is here, not in his normal seat. Callahan

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Speaker 1: is here, not in his normal seat, and we're here

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit like little State of the

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Speaker 1: Union stuff with Senator Heinrich center. Heinrich has held a

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Speaker 1: seat since twenty thirteen. He's the avid hunter and angler.

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Speaker 1: In fact, behind me, it is a yellow supercub. Like

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Speaker 1: of the front of a yellow supercub. There's a strong

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Speaker 1: chance that you've been in there's a one in three. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: it's if I was better at statistics, you startied engineering,

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Speaker 1: you might be able to figure this out. If there's

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Speaker 1: three If there's three planes, there's three planes, and you

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Speaker 1: went there and back.

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Speaker 2: For some reason, I was on that one twice, and

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Speaker 2: I think Micah was too, and then Carter was on

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Speaker 2: the other one. How do you know that one? But

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Speaker 2: I mean when we flew in. But there's three that

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Speaker 2: are yellow. Oh I couldn't.

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Speaker 1: So what are the odds if you only went one way?

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Speaker 2: It's a one in three. I honestly never took a

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Speaker 2: probability class. They like pushed us straight into calculus, and

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Speaker 2: so I could mess that up real quick.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's a good.

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Speaker 3: Chance classic politician not answer in the question.

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Speaker 1: The covading the subject. Yea, Yeah, there's a good chance

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Speaker 1: he flew in that year. A few years ago, I

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Speaker 1: had the We had a great time, and I had

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Speaker 1: the pleasure of going on a caribou hunt with Senator Heinrich.

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Speaker 2: He I had COVID, yep.

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Speaker 1: I had my one boy and you had your two boys,

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Speaker 1: and we were able to camp and do some caribou hunting.

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Speaker 2: Had a great time.

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Speaker 1: Studied engineering at the University of Missouri, Columbia, Missou.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as they say.

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Speaker 1: Early on established a strong link to the outdoors tradition

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Speaker 1: hunting and fishing. As a kid grew up on his

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Speaker 1: family's property in Missouri, but he's been in New Mexico

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Speaker 1: for thirty years. Commutes to d C for official business,

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Speaker 1: but lives with his family in Albuquerque.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been in your office in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: It's loud and proud.

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Speaker 2: I try to make it a little little slice of home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's loud and proud. It's like it's like a

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Speaker 1: hunting office.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is it's It's my refuge. It's like I

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Speaker 2: want to be able to go into work and deal

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Speaker 2: with a whole lot of issues, some of which I

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Speaker 2: absolutely love, which you know, conservation is kind of what

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Speaker 2: gets me on the plane on Monday morning, leaving blue

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Speaker 2: skies and mountains for all the bullshit in DC. But

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Speaker 2: having that around me and having you know, things that

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Speaker 2: remind me of home and remind me of those hunts.

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Speaker 2: It it puts me in the right frame of mind.

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Speaker 1: How is that generally received that you have sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, you got skulls and antlers and a lot

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Speaker 1: of New Mexico.

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Speaker 2: Actually, people love it. I've had so many people tell

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Speaker 2: me you have the most beautiful office in the Senate

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Speaker 2: Office buildings that I've been into. It's rarely a jarring

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Speaker 2: thing for people, and for New Mexicans too. We you know,

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Speaker 2: we have this history of like Georgia O'Keeffe painted all

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Speaker 2: of those skulls, and so because all my stuff is

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Speaker 2: generally European mounts, for some reason, people people have a

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Speaker 2: different for relationship with that. From an artistic point of view,

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Speaker 2: I guess then a typical shoulder mount and so I

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Speaker 2: get a lot of a lot of uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: positive feedback on it.

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Speaker 3: I kind of strategically advantage though, too, because like when

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Speaker 3: I walk into your office, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: ask Heinrich some tough questions here, and then I sit down.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, first one being, let's talk about that antelope.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like, hm, disarming, it is disarming, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Got It's like, Senator, I got a tough question. You're

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Speaker 1: probably gonna want to evade the answer on this one.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna be You're gonna be slippery. Where exactly did

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Speaker 1: you get that antelope?

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Speaker 3: Don't give me that slippery politicians guy was to apply

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Speaker 3: for an antelope tech.

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Speaker 1: And don't give me that evasive politician stuff. Tell me

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Speaker 1: exactly where you got it we're gonna run through a

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Speaker 1: whole ton of issues just to get your take on.

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Speaker 1: So these are the things that what we're gonna talk about. So,

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Speaker 1: as a senator one of a hundred votes, right, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about things that Some things are things that

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Speaker 1: you've voted on, you you've dealt with from a policy perspective.

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Speaker 1: Some of these things, admittedly are things that you've watched

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Speaker 1: from a federal perspective, but they haven't really come across

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Speaker 1: your desk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: For instance, one, I'm gonna let's start out by talking

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Speaker 1: about as we kind of run through the country and

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Speaker 1: run through issues, we're gonna talk about one which we've

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Speaker 1: followed a great deal over the years, which.

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Speaker 2: Is the.

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Speaker 1: Corner crossing debate. And the reason I'm bringing this up

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Speaker 1: with you is is right after the Supreme Court recently

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Speaker 1: decided not to take on the corner crossing issue, rejected

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Speaker 1: an appeal, right coming out of the Ninth Circuit, you

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Speaker 1: did a very circuit sorry, coming out of the tenth Circuit?

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Telling circuit? Right? Yeah? Yeah? Man? How many times

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Speaker 2: have I told that story? Wolf stuff is not? Oh?

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Speaker 1: That came the Supreme Court decision came out. I'll let

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Speaker 1: you lay the whole thing up. The Supreme Court decision

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Speaker 1: came out, and I was pleased to see you did

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Speaker 1: a very informative.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think most around the country don't know

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Speaker 2: what corner crossing is, why it's important. And I think

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Speaker 2: we all owe a debt of gratitude to the four

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Speaker 2: hunters who were tied up in this legal mess for years,

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Speaker 2: because they did such an incredible job of going the

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Speaker 2: extra mile to make sure that their fact pattern was

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Speaker 2: clean right so we could have a clean court case.

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Speaker 2: And I think that was reflected in both the decision

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Speaker 2: in the ten Circuit and then the rejection of the

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Speaker 2: appeal by the Supreme Court. At its core, I think

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Speaker 2: what this is is we're getting back to what the

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Speaker 2: actual law of the land is, which is that there

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Speaker 2: is a federal law called the Unlawful Enclosures Act that

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Speaker 2: says you can go from public to public and that

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Speaker 2: supersedes county trespass law state trespass law. You can't keep

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Speaker 2: someone whether it's for stock growing purposes or hunting or

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Speaker 2: any other legal right that they have to use that land.

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Speaker 2: And that's a like late eighteen hundreds law that was

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Speaker 2: largely ignored or tried to be evaded for years and

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Speaker 2: years of state law, and this is a return to

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Speaker 2: that law being the law of the land. What. I

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Speaker 2: got a handful of questions on this, And remember I'm

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Speaker 2: an engineer, not a lawyer. I just read the I

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Speaker 2: understand the same legal briefs that you do. But I've

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Speaker 2: spent a lot of time talking to my ag about this,

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Speaker 2: you know, going through really trying to dig deep to understand,

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Speaker 2: you know, what the decision might be based on the

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Speaker 2: fact pattern here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because your state in New Mexico is in the

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Speaker 1: district that decided that corner crossing is legal, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: So a first question, and I'm sure Callan Randall might

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Speaker 1: have comments or questions on issue, but just is it

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Speaker 1: possible to get into the heads of the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: justices someone brings that when they decide not to hear something.

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Speaker 2: Is it? Is it?

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Speaker 1: Can it be a combination of things like is it

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Speaker 1: that's not that interesting that we don't have time for that?

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Speaker 2: Is that a factor? Or is it No?

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Speaker 1: It's quite clear what's true and right, and we'd be

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Speaker 1: wasting time pretending that there's a wishy washy, this tooday

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Speaker 1: that needs to be sorted out.

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Speaker 2: They have a very limited amount of time and they're

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Speaker 2: looking for places where they think maybe a lower court

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Speaker 2: got it wrong, and you know, based on the information

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Speaker 2: they have, is it worth a second look or did

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Speaker 2: the lower court just do its job? And basically we

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Speaker 2: don't see a big red flag here, Okay, So it

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that there couldn't be another case that came

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Speaker 2: from the Ninth Circuit where their decision might be somewhat different.

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Speaker 2: I think what my hope would be is that if

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Speaker 2: there are other circuits that take this on, that they

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Speaker 2: also that were able to do it with a clean

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Speaker 2: case that really doesn't have a lot of distractions, because

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Speaker 2: that's you know, when those guys took a ladder out there.

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Speaker 2: If you look at the case law, you know people

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Speaker 2: were using the Unlawful Enclosures Act to drive their sheep

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Speaker 2: around corners and there was forage impacted, and they were

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Speaker 2: much cleaner than that. They were like, we're going to

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Speaker 2: make this as perfect as possible, so that the case

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Speaker 2: law that says you can't harass people going from public

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Speaker 2: to public, you can't keep people out of their resource,

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Speaker 2: is going to be very clearly applied.

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Speaker 3: Which comes in like when proving damages, right, Like, that's

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Speaker 3: like the interesting thing about the.

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Speaker 2: Sheep pisely and it's like cheap.

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Speaker 3: Gray is along the way. There's going to be damages

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Speaker 3: that you could prove to that forest.

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Speaker 2: And yet the case law said, even if forage is impacted,

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Speaker 2: you can still take your stock as long as your

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Speaker 2: you know, minimized, your intent is not, which is amazing. Right,

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Speaker 2: You're going from public to public and this whole issue

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Speaker 2: of air rights and the fact that the case law

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Speaker 2: says you can't harass people and yet in this case,

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Speaker 2: clearly these hunters were harassed. I think it just made

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Speaker 2: for a very clean case and we all benefit from that.

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Speaker 2: What uh? What is?

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Speaker 1: First of all, I want to make sure I got

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Speaker 1: something right. If I got If I'm wrong, I'm asking

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Speaker 1: its to because you guys live here. If I'm wrong

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Speaker 1: about this, we'll just cut this. We'll phil can bleep

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Speaker 1: this whole part.

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Speaker 2: Out, did it? I haven't looked exactly.

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Speaker 1: Is it true that since the Supreme Court decision, Montana

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Speaker 1: has expressed or clarified that it remains unlawful to corner.

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Speaker 3: Cross that's Montana fishing game.

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Speaker 2: How, So I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't say the state has, but I say Montana

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Speaker 3: Fish and Game has. How is a huge question because

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Speaker 3: in the past they've gone the other way in the

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Speaker 3: exact same form. It's a memo, Hey, just so you know,

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Speaker 3: we're not gonna write citations for corner crossing. So I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's a great question.

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Speaker 2: But they the way that they.

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Speaker 4: Worded is they say it's not considered a lawful form

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Speaker 4: of access, so it doesn't.

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Speaker 2: I think what they're trying to say, and I think

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Speaker 2: they're on very thin ice here because a state law

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Speaker 2: is superseded by a federal law. So what they're trying

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Speaker 2: to say is Montana and I haven't read the Montana law,

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Speaker 2: but I think the idea is Montana has a trespass law,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to apply that, and we're not in

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Speaker 2: that circuit over there that got this clarified, and so

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Speaker 2: you know, it does leave all this ambiguity. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that's a valid point of view, because you have

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Speaker 2: a federal law that says, no, you can go from

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Speaker 2: as long as you go from public to public and

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Speaker 2: you're not damaging someone else's property, you should be in

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Speaker 2: theory on good stead here. And I think they made

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Speaker 2: a choice to go out on a limb.

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Speaker 1: Because if it came, if someone was prosecuted and they

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Speaker 1: fought it and started to appeal it, the same Unlawful

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Speaker 1: Enclosures Act would apply. That would be the foundation of

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Speaker 1: the discussion all over again.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And the way that Montana is and again Montana

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Speaker 3: Fishwilie from Parks is doing this is saying we aren't

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Speaker 3: going to just be looking for corner crossers. We're not

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Speaker 3: going to be writing citations. What we're going to do

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Speaker 3: is if a landowner wants to press the issue, we're

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Speaker 3: going to come look at the facts of the situation.

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Speaker 3: We're going to then call the county attorney's office, and

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Speaker 3: the county attorney is going to make the decision as

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Speaker 3: to whether or not to issue a citation. So I mean,

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Speaker 3: they're really kicking the cam to somebody else, to somebody else.

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Speaker 3: The buck doesn't stop. Yeah, and we've we've experienced that

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Speaker 3: in New Mexico. You know, we went through this whole

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Speaker 3: stream access fight for years and years. Want to get

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Speaker 3: to that in the language and go ahead, let's talk

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: But our game and Fish Department, Uh, we're in the

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Speaker 2: midst of changing it to the Department of Wildlife. But

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Speaker 2: irrespective they they have not been willing to take the

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Speaker 2: bowl by the horns and just issue guidance so that

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Speaker 2: people know what is uh, you know, when you're going

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Speaker 2: to be in trouble and when you're not. And that's

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Speaker 2: a problem when you have the law enforcement agency that

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Speaker 2: is most likely to be involved in this conflict not

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Speaker 2: willing to draw a bright line for the public. That's

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Speaker 2: going to invite some some challenges. Yeah. Yeah. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: we've got our Attorney General going out and finding places

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Speaker 2: where people put concert tina wire across the Pacops River

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Speaker 2: and sending them a letter and say, hey, take it down.

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Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah, which is great? Like that, that's

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Speaker 2: that's the kind of certainty people need, and if you

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Speaker 2: need to, like it would also be perfectly appropriate to say,

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Speaker 2: this stretch of the Chama River that has private on

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Speaker 2: both sides, we recognize the work that people have done

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Speaker 2: to improve that habitat, and so that's only going to

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Speaker 2: be catch and release or it's only going to be

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Speaker 2: fished this way or that way, because we're trying to

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Speaker 2: protect the quality and the you know, the quality of

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Speaker 2: that fishery. They just haven't really taken the bowl by

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Speaker 2: the horns at all, and so it's been left to

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Speaker 2: people like the Attorney General to enforce the ruling that

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Speaker 2: came down from the state Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Okay, since since you brought that up, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about the stream access.

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Speaker 1: Long tile, the ongoing yeah, and how it applies, how

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Speaker 1: it might be applied in other places in the West.

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Speaker 1: Like what do we mean when we say stream access law.

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Speaker 2: So in the state of New Mexico, historically stream access

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Speaker 2: we did not have a standard of navigability that exists

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Speaker 2: in some other places. And that means, you know, the

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Speaker 2: place A lot of states said any place where commerce

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Speaker 2: was done, meaning if you floated a log down the river,

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Speaker 2: for example, to a mill, those are public rights of way.

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Speaker 2: That's not precisely in New Mexico. We've got a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a different history because of the Spanish background,

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Speaker 2: and we didn't become a you know, we didn't join

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Speaker 2: the Union until the Treaty of Guadalupe Dalgo and then

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Speaker 2: a state nearly nineteen hundreds. Our constitution articulates something that

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Speaker 2: other states don't have, and so we always had a

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Speaker 2: standard historically that not only could you float down a river,

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Speaker 2: but you could also wade up and down that river,

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Speaker 2: so long as you work in the stream and not

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Speaker 2: on the private property on either side.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, when I'm trying to explain the navigability

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Speaker 1: thing to people in terms of our rivers here in

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Speaker 1: other states as well, I always I always try to

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Speaker 1: begin it like this. Let's just let's start with the

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Speaker 1: Mississippi River. Now, say that one guy has private property

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Speaker 1: on one side of the Mississippi River, and then directly

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Speaker 1: across from him, another guy has private property. It's ludicrous

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Speaker 1: to think that these two property owners could stop all.

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Speaker 2: Commercial traffic up and down the mississip And everyone will

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Speaker 2: be like, well, of course not.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, So now that we've established it, that's smaller.

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Speaker 1: Let's go smaller and smaller and smaller until we hit

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Speaker 1: the point where it's not so obvious.

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Speaker 2: Right in an arid state like New Mexico or next

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Speaker 2: door in Arizona, you know, you there is the Rio Grand,

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Speaker 2: the HeLa, our biggest the Pecos, our biggest rivers are

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Speaker 2: at some points in the year in a condition where

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Speaker 2: you can walk across them. So if you don't have waiting,

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Speaker 2: you don't really have a public right of way. And

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Speaker 2: that's basically what the Supreme Court ruled is that there

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Speaker 2: is a right for the public to be able to

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Speaker 2: access up and down those streams, so long as they,

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Speaker 2: you know, comply with all the other laws. Don't letter,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. Don't you know, harm someone's property on either side,

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Speaker 2: or step onto a portion of the bank that is

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Speaker 2: above the high water line.

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Speaker 1: So what was the long like what has been the

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Speaker 1: long standing question in New Mexico that needed to be

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Speaker 1: that needs to be clarified.

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Speaker 2: There was an effort by a previous governor and a

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Speaker 2: group of landowners who I would just characterize as maybe

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Speaker 2: being recently to the state to try and move the

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Speaker 2: standard more like Texas and less like New Mexico. And

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Speaker 2: they had a lot of success passing some laws and

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Speaker 2: some rules in the Department of Game and Fish that

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Speaker 2: people did not think were consistent with the history and

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Speaker 2: the constitution. And so then there was a challenge, and

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Speaker 2: that legal challenge played out over the course of quite

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Speaker 2: a number of years, and the Supreme Court ruled know

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Speaker 2: that these laws this and it was you know, they

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Speaker 2: tried to rewrite it based on navigability, and that wasn't

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Speaker 2: our history. So the Supreme Court threw it out and said, no,

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Speaker 2: you have stream access in the state of New Mexico.

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Speaker 1: And how is it defined now does someone have to

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Speaker 1: go back and prove that something was used for commerce

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Speaker 1: it does not know?

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Speaker 2: That's that's the navigability standard. That is not the standard

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Speaker 2: in New Mexico. All unreserved waters are the property the

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Speaker 2: public under the state constitution.

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Speaker 1: I explored this one time Lolo Creek. You guys have

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Speaker 1: been there. I one time was curious about this whole question,

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Speaker 1: and it was you can look up and find it's logs,

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Speaker 1: references to law going in at certain points, and there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a specific point on this creek comes off

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Speaker 1: the Bitterroot Divide, flows down into the Bitterroot River.

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Speaker 2: There's a point in this.

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Speaker 1: Creek as you ascend it, there's a point at which

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Speaker 1: it stops being navigable.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's based on like historical.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just in and this gets used on

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Speaker 3: both sides for pro access and anti access obviously, but

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Speaker 3: I was, I mean just in Colorado on Tuesday night

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Speaker 3: and we were having the stream access conversation in Colorado.

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Speaker 2: Was this the Onyx.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it was a great, great event

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Speaker 3: in the Boulder Theater there. But you know, the way

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Speaker 3: Colorado's stream access is written is off of like commercial

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Speaker 3: trade navigability, and people were kind of debating this stuff

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Speaker 3: and they just weren't thinking back far enough and I

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Speaker 3: just said, well, you know, from my perspective, considering the

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Speaker 3: deep deep fur trade history in the state of Colorado,

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Speaker 3: I would think very hard before I had said there

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Speaker 3: was no commercial use of any water in this state.

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Speaker 1: You know who's going to find it? If you put

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Speaker 1: randle on it, you'll find.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I feel like I beg to differ. You're

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Speaker 5: telling me three hundred beaver hides down that to market, right.

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Speaker 4: We had when I was guiding up in Alaska, you

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Speaker 4: needed a you needed a Coastguard license to drive a

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Speaker 4: boat on this big glacial river that was you know,

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Speaker 4: hundreds of yards wide, and then all the little streams

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Speaker 4: that were super sketchy where people sunk boats and had

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Speaker 4: boat accidents and everything like that. You didn't need a

377
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,400
Speaker 4: license to do that because there'd never been any commerce.

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Speaker 4: And so it was like depending on it was, it's

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Speaker 4: one of these cases where it's very arbitrary and actually

380
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Speaker 4: doesn't really work with the regulatory framework to achieve the

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Speaker 4: entire ended an outcome.

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Speaker 2: But it was just one of those funny things.

383
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Speaker 4: It's like, as soon as you get off the safe water,

384
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Speaker 4: you can get up into the sketchy stuff anarchy. Then

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Speaker 4: you don't need a coastguard license.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that got clarified. Yeah, and now we're kind

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Speaker 1: of you kind of started a little bit. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: something I imagine a little bit at the end of

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Speaker 1: the story. Now that it's been clarified, they're going around

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Speaker 1: and having people remedy obstructions.

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Speaker 2: Exactly the you know, the Attorney General went out and

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Speaker 2: looked at the paykos where this has been a particularly

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00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 2: uh sort of intense conflict, and you know, said letter

394
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 2: letters to folks and said, if you know you have

395
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Speaker 2: a certain amount of time, please remedy this. This is

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00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,919
Speaker 2: clearly the law of the land now, and to his credit,

397
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: most of those structures have been Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So people have accepted what's what's truth.

399
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 2: I think legally because there's a real you know, the

400
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 2: next step would have been bosure too, you know, legal remedies.

401
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think for the most part. For the

402
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 2: most part, people, You know, our goal in New Mexico

403
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 2: is to be one pro access and two pro good behavior,

404
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 2: Like we need to make sure that people are meeting

405
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: their responsibilities if they're going to use corner crossing or

406
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: stream access to to fish or hunt or recreat or

407
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 2: whatever it is. And I think marrying those two together

408
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: and having a lot of public interaction and education is

409
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Speaker 2: the best way to have the most access with the

410
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Speaker 2: least conflict.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Cal and I have discussed this recently on the

412
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: corner crossing issue as now that it's been clarified in

413
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 1: a large chunk of the American West, and it's probably

414
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: it's likely to be clarified to some extent or another

415
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 1: in the coming years and more of the American West.

416
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 1: It's going to fall on land you, it's going to

417
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: fall on access seekers. To do this in a way

418
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: minimizes conflict, that minimizes stress, or else it's going to

419
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: become you risk making it an issue all over again.

420
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 2: One hundred percent be responsible, And that's that should be

421
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 2: the mantra for sportsmen all the time. It's like, think

422
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: about how your actions are going to reflect on all

423
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 2: of us.

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00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 3: This kind of bursts people's bubble. But I try to

425
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 3: point it out because we think we get so fixated

426
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: on what we're going to get by accessing this square

427
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 3: mile through the corner and then get on over to

428
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: the next square mile through the corner, which is, you know, awesome,

429
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 3: it's an adventure and everything that we have. But the

430
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 3: private land access is everywhere, including the corner. They're the

431
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 3: public landowner as well.

432
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: And including the public.

433
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but they can access all that stuff way

434
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: easier than the folks that are restricted to accessing through

435
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: the corner. So the we got to think of long

436
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 3: term wins here, not this short term little access win,

437
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 3: Like we want everybody to be on board with this

438
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: as much as possible, for.

439
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: Sure, and we also have tools for that, right I mean,

440
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 2: I think you and I first met at the Saboso,

441
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 2: which was ironically the most landlocked bl and wilderness area,

442
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: Like you just couldn't get there legally capital W designated wilderness.

443
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 2: I did that in two thousand and nine because I'd

444
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 2: been allowed permission on horseback to go in there and

445
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: see the place. But the next step was we used

446
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 2: landed water conservation funds to open it up to the public.

447
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: In a way that you know that that also was

448
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: consistent with local landowners who wanted to grant that access

449
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 2: for you know, for a fair compensation.

450
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's I'm sure this is in your notes

451
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 3: somewhere too. But two members of the Stewardship Caucus right now.

452
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 3: So we had Heinrich working on this opening up this

453
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 3: wilderness area. And then now Congressman z Inkee was then

454
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: Secretary of the Interior z Inky, and he was the

455
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 3: one who got the BLM to accept new acreage that

456
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 3: allowed access to the wilderness.

457
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: They took a gift of land that allowed that to

458
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 2: be opened up to the public.

459
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 3: Rimrock Rose Ranch.

460
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: It didn't start out so great with me and Ryan,

461
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: but I was like at some point, I said, rather

462
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: than us arguing about this in Washington, d C. Secretary,

463
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: why don't you come out to New Mexico and we'll

464
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: settle up some horses and we'll go look at this place.

465
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: And that got through a lot of the words to

466
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: what made sense on the ground, and we made progress.

467
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: Plus New Mexicans like, once you're there, New Mexican hospitality

468
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 3: is just a real thing. And the stories that came

469
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: out from the rim Rock Rose owners. They if this

470
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: is like a good lesson to spoiled kids, like what

471
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 3: you say to your parents, because the kids were like, yeah,

472
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: we can't wait to get the ranch so we can

473
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 3: sell it, and the parents were like, oh, okay. Duley noted,

474
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 3: I don't careful what you say.

475
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, he let let's let's jump up to Alaska, because man,

476
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: so much has happened to Alaska. With Alaska under the

477
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: Trump administration. There's been so much news out of Alaska,

478
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: and every little bit of the news like takes another

479
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: nick out of my heart.

480
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: It's kind of hole. I don't know.

481
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what I hold. I was hoping that

482
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: they would like, look another direction. I don't know what

483
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 1: I it wasn't It was a naive hope.

484
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: I don't know.

485
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: I just there's been a lot of hits to a

486
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: lot of things I care a lot about in Alaska.

487
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: I just want to curious what your take on what

488
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: we're actually going to see happen, how long these processes

489
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: play out. Let's start with the Arctic National wild there refuge.

490
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: I earlier called it antwar, and you joked me, you

491
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: never call it antwar.

492
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: Well, I don't call it antwar. That sounds like a

493
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: small Middle Eastern country that would be a logical place

494
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: to be exploring for oil and gas. Right. They also

495
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 2: call it the ten O two area.

496
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, that goes on a balance sheet.

497
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got some ten fitties, some ten o two

498
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 2: here for my f one. And so I think this

499
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 2: one's complicated in that in the twenty seventeen Reconciliation Bill

500
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: they allowed for leasing of the Arctic Refuge. The good

501
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: news is that went terribly Like, no legitimate companies who

502
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: actually had a history of producing oil and gas, no majors,

503
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: no independence with deep pockets and a long history of

504
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: actually doing exploration and production in hard to reach places

505
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: bid on that. It was all the ATA, which is

506
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 2: sort of the Alaska Economic Development kind of a hail

507
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: mary operation were they Was.

508
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: There reluctance based off public pressure or was there reluctance

509
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: based off economics?

510
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 2: It's both, Okay, it's a very expense one. Like who

511
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 2: wants to be the face of developing America's greatest national

512
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: wildlife refuge? Like there is some social risk to doing

513
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: that if you're a Conoco Phillips or a BP or

514
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: an Exceonomobile or whoever, like is that the story you

515
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: want to be articulating every day when we have these

516
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: really productive basins in other places that are much lower

517
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: hanging fruit and much cheaper to produce in so you know,

518
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: you might be able to produce a barrel of oil

519
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: for a fraction of the cost in the West Texas

520
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: Permian or the New Mexico Permian when you get that

521
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: far from existing infrastructure. I've had a lot of folks

522
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: from Alaska who are pretty pro oil and gas development

523
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 2: say I just don't know that the resources there to

524
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: justify this, and that's why you haven't seen a big

525
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: player come in, you know, very different than Willow that

526
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: we're looking at in the Western Arctic, where you know,

527
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: real money was dropped to be able to produce those

528
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: barrels of oil. It's not clear that's there in the

529
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: Arctic Refuge, and that is probably our best hope of

530
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: seeing the refuge remain intact. Really did it just in

531
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: the end, no one's going to take de bait well

532
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: because right now, like we've got an existing law that

533
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: until there's a different majority, you know, it used to

534
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: be the Arctic Refuge was somewhat of This is one

535
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: of the things we've got to figure out how to

536
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: bridge and I'm looking forward to Cal's next job because

537
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: I think he's one of those people who can do this.

538
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: Some of these issues used to be very bipartisan, and

539
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: the Arctic Refuge is one of them. If you look

540
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 2: back in time, it got more and more comfortably partisan

541
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: over time. Fewer and fewer people have actually been there

542
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: on the ground, and I count myself as absolutely blessed

543
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: to have seen that place, and so it's become comfortably partisan,

544
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: and we've lost the bipartisan and even like there used

545
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: to be more concern from some of the sportsman groups

546
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 2: about you know, the eiders that are uniquely there and

547
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: not only a few other places left on the planet.

548
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: So that one right now, the politics of it don't

549
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: look great, but the economics of it don't look good either,

550
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: And that's at the end of the day. I just

551
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: I don't know that it's going to be recoverable. The

552
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: juice isn't worth the squeeze. And you know, we could

553
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: also see the politics change if there's a different majority

554
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: next year in the House and Senate, which are easily

555
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: could be.

556
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: When you get to these issues like like the artic

557
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: National Wildlife Refuge that has have this real this The

558
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: expression news is like a ping pong, you know, I'm

559
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,479
Speaker 1: trying to put people. Yeah, like one administration comes, they

560
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: undo a ruling. The next administration comes, they put the

561
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: ruling back, and then it seems like your whole lifetime

562
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: passes with these rulings.

563
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, bouncing.

564
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: How does something like the Artic National Wildlife Refuge, what happens?

565
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: Like what could happen?

566
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: That just clarifies it right to be what it is,

567
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: meaning there's no every new administration, they don't say we're

568
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: gonna do rare earth minerals in Yellowstone National Park. It's

569
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: just become that it's not.

570
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: Discussed legislation, not a budget, not something tucked into a

571
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 2: budget that passed with fifty one votes, okay, but permanent

572
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 2: legislation with sixty votes, which means you have to have

573
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: some level of compromise and willingness to for there to

574
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: be a trade space to get to sixty, and that's

575
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: not an easy thing, but that would create real certainty.

576
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: So sixty votes out of one hundred saying we're taking

577
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: and the refuge, we're taking anmar off the table is

578
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: a sixty out of one hundred vote thing.

579
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: That's right, and that's in the old days. In the

580
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: old days in nineteen eighty that happened, right, And that's

581
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: why we have so many of the amazing places that

582
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: we have in Alaska is because there were times when

583
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: that was possible. But you know, at the moment, I

584
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 2: sure don't see it.

585
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm guessing you don't feel the same way about

586
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: Ambler Road. And just for listeners, when I explain with this,

587
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: is is Ambler Road is a term used for a

588
00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: the word road.

589
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: Is it?

590
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: Because what it is at its core is this proposal

591
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: to run a two hundred and fifty mile road through

592
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: the Brooks Range of Alaska in order to make an

593
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: industrial corridor for all manner of industrial development. It puts

594
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: a lot of focus on the road. But what basically

595
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,239
Speaker 1: the way one should think about it would be like

596
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: the Ambler Industrial.

597
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: District, Yeah, mining district, Yeah, but the.

598
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: Airplanes, Like this is needs a road.

599
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: This isn't just a gravel road. This is you know,

600
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: forty nine bridges and it's crossing thousands of streams, including

601
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: eleven major rivers. It's in an area where there is

602
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: a deep reliance on subsistence for things like she fish,

603
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: and it is going to become an industrial corridor with

604
00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: multiple mines at the end of that corridor. And I

605
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: think one of the things, there's a real there's conflict

606
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: in Alaska around it. That conflict has not necessarily bled

607
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: over to a willingness by either of Alaska's senators to

608
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: second guests their advocacy for this. But in addition to

609
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: the fisheries resource and the that is huge and I

610
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: can't I can't even put into words how beautiful this

611
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: place is. Like if you go through, it's going to

612
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 2: punch through get to the Arctic National Preserve. It goes

613
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: on the south shore of Inyocook Lake. I mean, these

614
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: are some of the most beautiful places I've ever seen

615
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: in my life. And it's then there's the caribou herd, right,

616
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: like the Western Arctic caribou herd used to be one

617
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: of the largest herds left, but it has been in

618
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: major decline. And this is going to be a road

619
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: that's that's a elevated gravel right, multiple feet three to

620
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 2: eight feet high of make a gravel pit every so

621
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: many miles and use that gravel to create an elevated

622
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 2: structure that all of the industrial you know, dump trucks

623
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: and things will travel on. What we know about caribou

624
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: is sometimes they will walk across the road, but if

625
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 2: there's an elevated structure, And the best data I've seen

626
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: from this is what happened at Red dog Mine, where

627
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: they did a much shorter but similar road. Those caribou

628
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: ball up for weeks and don't want to cross it,

629
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: and eventually they do and then they haul ask and

630
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: so they lose weeks of putting on fat. They're in

631
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: poorer condition. You know, this is already a herd that's

632
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: in steep decline and is absolutely critical for subsistence in

633
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: that area. And so I worry that this is the

634
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: end of the Western Arctic caribou herd being a great

635
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: herd of caribou. And you overlay that with what's happened

636
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 2: to a last scar already, which you see Alaska has

637
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: warmed so much that you get these these rain events

638
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 2: in the winter that are really hard on doll sheep,

639
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: They're really hard on caribou, They're really hard on muskoks

640
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: where it like rains and then freezes, and then you

641
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: have a vegetation change, which is a huge change just

642
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: because it's warmer now in the summer, and so you

643
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 2: have a huge vegetation change that caribou are grappling with.

644
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: And it's no surprise that one of the great migrations

645
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: on the planet is you know, in real jeopardy.

646
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: Man, the caribou example means a lot to me. Like,

647
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: I understand the example, but my take on it has

648
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: just like my take on it from the start has

649
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: been that I'm sympathetic to the economy issue. I'm sympathetic

650
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: to the jobs issue. When I talk to friends of

651
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: mine that you know, I'm an outsider. I don't live

652
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: in Alaska. When I talked to bodies of mind that

653
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,479
Speaker 1: live in Alaska and they bring up jobs and job

654
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: creation and financial security, I'm like, I understand, man, I'm

655
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: not belittling that stuff. I'm not rolling my eyes about it.

656
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: I understand the real jobs. Yeah, I understand the concern.

657
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: But in thinking long term American interests and short term

658
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: sort of like spiritual wellbeing and the long term future

659
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: of hunting, angling wilderness, I'm like, it's most valuable state

660
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 1: is what.

661
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: It is right now. Yeah, it's not going anywhere. It's

662
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: going to be there. If some.

663
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: Down the road. A century from now, two centuries from now,

664
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 1: there could be some dramatically different challenges, dramatically different issues

665
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: facing the country. It's there, the minerals are there, but

666
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 1: like we're not code read right now. The best thing

667
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: we can do is hang on to our best, our

668
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: last vestiges of wilderness.

669
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 2: Like wherever they are, they're not making more. Hold them,

670
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 2: hold them.

671
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: It's like my wife used to work in Amazon. She

672
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: got a bunch of Amazon stock. When it goes up

673
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: a little bit, she just you know, it goes up,

674
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: goes down, she holds onto it, and you know what,

675
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: over time, it's you know what I'm saying, It's like, dude,

676
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: it's like the most it's the most brilliant thing on

677
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: the planet. Look what this country has. You're gonna industrialize

678
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: all this and will be like every other damn country.

679
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 1: It's all this stuff gone.

680
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

681
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 3: Well, I especially like all the stuff that's going on

682
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 3: right now now. It's not that different than it has

683
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: been over history. But I'm like, when are we gonna

684
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 3: start talking about water in terms of like national defense?

685
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 2: Right?

686
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 3: Like what do we need as a country If you're

687
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 3: thinking about this country in perpetuity, which I think we

688
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 3: should be doing right, Like we're gonna need places to

689
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 3: grow food, We're gonna need water to drink, We're going

690
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: to need our country to be able to sustain us.

691
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: And a lot of the decisions that we're making right

692
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 3: now are like short term gain and irreplaceable in the

693
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 3: long term.

694
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 2: You take that twin metals proposed mind by the boundary waters,

695
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: which is you know, right in the you know that

696
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 2: water will flow from where the mindset would be into

697
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: the boundary waters, right, and that that product And look,

698
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: my dad was at Anacona Copper as an exploration geologist

699
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: when he was growing up. My grandfather worked at Battle

700
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 2: Mountain and in Nevada. I'm not minimizing the need for

701
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 2: mining we have. We have copper mines in New Mexico

702
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: that produce a lot of copper and produce good jobs.

703
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 2: But you're gonna you're gonna mine that and then you're

704
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: going to send it to China to process, so you're

705
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: going to get the front end resource commodity money, but

706
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 2: then you're going to buy it back once it's been

707
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what third world countries do. Like that

708
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: Does that make sense? And especially when you're talking about

709
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 2: an economic and cultural engine with the the cachet at

710
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 2: the boundary waters. Mm hmm. I wanted to comment on

711
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: something comment you made about national defense. It's old water.

712
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: No, no, I was gonna saying it's hyperbolic, and I

713
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: just do it to scare my kids. I like to

714
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: tell them that I'm like, in your lifetime, I won't

715
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: be around for this, but in your lifetime you'll be

716
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: eating bugs and they'll fight wars over water. I'd like

717
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: to tell them.

718
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: That, have a good day school.

719
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: I tell them that at dinner, I'll be long on,

720
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: just so you know, so don't come whining to me.

721
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: You'll be eating grasshoppers and fighting wars over water. Have

722
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: a good night. Uh So, what do you think will

723
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: happen there? We didn't get to that part. We talked

724
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: about what what you know, We talked about how we

725
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: feel about it.

726
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 2: Ambler Road is a long way along, and so I'm

727
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: sure there will be litigation. There are you know, the

728
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 2: Tanana Tribal Council and others that are very invested in

729
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: the the the subsistence resources there. I don't think it's

730
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: the end, but this thing is way along. Okay, it's

731
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: a long way and there are some Native corps too

732
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 2: that have to have to agree for the road to

733
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 2: cross their land, and that's not a complete done deal yet,

734
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: but there there are a lot of negotiations that I

735
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: think are fairly far along there as well. So money, Yeah,

736
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: I am, and you know you fact checked me on this,

737
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: but I think the government just took a ownership stake

738
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,919
Speaker 2: in the developer, which is like mockers, like the the

739
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: definition of you know, the government should never own the

740
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 2: means of production. This, this whole idea of like cutting

741
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: deals and taking ownership stakes in foreign mining companies, to

742
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: me is like nothing I've ever seen in my life.

743
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, we took a ten percent. The federal government took

744
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 4: a ten percent ownership stake in Trilogy Medals Real in

745
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 4: October of this year.

746
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: I didn't know Canadian mining for I was unaware of that.

747
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's in October, YEP invested thirty six million dollars

748
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 4: in this Canadian.

749
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 3: Does that make it harder to be impartial.

750
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: For so you know what, you got a lot of

751
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: money online?

752
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: Yeah?

753
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean it is interesting, right, Like there's

754
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: all these natural things that are happening everywhere, but in

755
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 3: this case of the ambler district where it's got all

756
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 3: these awesome resources we can call them on the on

757
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 3: the back foot or fighting an uphill battle. And then

758
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 3: this road, even though there's not like a current plan

759
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 3: for public access along it, it's going to also provide

760
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: additional pressures in the forms of take. It would be

761
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: like the only mining camp in the history of the

762
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 3: world where there weren't dudes interested in hunting fishing if

763
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,280
Speaker 3: it did not. And then it's got the additional hurdle

764
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 3: of what really happens long term to this caribou herd

765
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 3: when it balls up, waste a bunch of energy and

766
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 3: then spends a bunch of energy hauling ass away from

767
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: the road on the back end once it finally crosses.

768
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 3: We don't know the answer to that. And then the

769
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 3: fishery side of things, like what is the long term

770
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 3: effects on these fisheries? And yeah, like is the long

771
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,720
Speaker 3: term subsistence plan to just take the money and run?

772
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 3: Like very interesting.

773
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: Another move I've seen, I've seen another move the world

774
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 1: has seen is a movement of a volley. I'm trying

775
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: to think of my ping pong lingo serve in the

776
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: ping pong analogy, the roadless rule. There's a hit on

777
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: one side, there's a hit on the other side. The

778
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 1: hit on one side hit on the other side.

779
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think the analogy holds as

780
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 2: well for the roadless rule because educate me. Because the

781
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 2: roadless Rule was first crafted in what was it ninety nine,

782
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: right before the change in administration, Right, so you know

783
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: this is under Clinton. Yeah, Chris Wood, who is now

784
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 2: the president and CEO of Troad Unlimited, was working for

785
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: the Chief of the Forest Service. They did this whole

786
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: big public process. I remember going to roadless Rule public

787
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 2: hearings in New Mexico at the time, and then the

788
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: Bush administration.

789
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 1: Can you tell what? Can you explain what we're talking about?

790
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: So this is what the rule means.

791
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 2: This is a rule. It's actually a very flexible tool,

792
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: but it says these roadless lands are really critical to

793
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 2: things like wild trout and salmon populations. There were most

794
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 2: of our endangered species. Is like, they're a small portial

795
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 2: portion of the overall national forest footprint, but they're incredibly

796
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 2: powerful in terms of unique species and species of concern

797
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: from I mean, when I think about roadless I mostly

798
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: think about elk, but I also think about things like

799
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: Rio Grande cutthroat trout habitat HeLa trout habitat in New Mexico.

800
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: And so they protected those things and said, you can

801
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 2: still go in there and do a fuels treatment, or

802
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 2: you can go in there and and make habitat modifications,

803
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: but afterwards, you're not going to leave your footprints there.

804
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: You're not going to leave an open road. That then

805
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 2: becomes a source of degradation for those roadless areas.

806
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: Okay, now a few years less strict in a wilderness area.

807
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 2: Less strict than the wilderness area, much more flexible. A

808
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: lot of in Montana, there have been huge treatments in

809
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: roadless areas, for example. Then the Bush administration said, okay,

810
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: we're going to change this rule. We're not going to

811
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: get rid of it, We're going to change it and

812
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 2: say that there can also be a governor initiated process

813
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 2: to tweak to make sure it fits their individual state.

814
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: So you had conservative governors like generation Idaho who negotiated

815
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: the roadless rule for Idaho. Colorado has a state based

816
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: roadless rule that is that is unique, and so the

817
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 2: roadless rule held. It got modified a little bit under

818
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 2: the Bush administration. We never modified ours in the state

819
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 2: of New Mexico because people weren't up in arms about it.

820
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: It made sense. It's like the pell and CEO's where

821
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: we have desert, big horned sheep and coups deer, and

822
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 2: you know, people really valued the habitat that was protected.

823
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: So it wasn't until the first Trump administration that the

824
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: ping pong match really started. So now we're full on

825
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 2: ping pong match and clearly so.

826
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 1: What happened in Trump won with the roles rule.

827
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 2: Gosh, you're putting me on the spot. I can't remember precisely.

828
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: I don't worry about it. Yeah, we'll stay with the current.

829
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 2: But they are, they're, you know, moving forward to repeal this.

830
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: And you know, one of the ironies is they are

831
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 2: not holding public meetings all over the country like when

832
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 2: it was created, which kind of sends that tell that

833
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 2: you know, we've already figured out what we want to

834
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 2: do and we're just going to do that and you

835
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 2: can send your little node in and tell us we're wrong,

836
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 2: but we're plowing.

837
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: For what is the what is the primary motivation to

838
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: repeal the World is Rule? I mean, is it a

839
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: spec is it like a specific industry in a specific location.

840
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: Is it a general annoyance.

841
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: I think it's a general annoyance and dogma. That's that.

842
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: So much of this revolves around the phrase energy dominance,

843
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: which means that energy and minerals trumps every other use.

844
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: And we don't want to we don't want to get

845
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: in the business of balancing uses. We're going to do

846
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 2: minerals and energy at least traditional energy at any cost.

847
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: And so I think that's what's driving it, because it's

848
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: not this is not where the good timber is. For example, Uh,

849
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: this is not. It tends to be really steep and

850
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: hard to road. The Forest Service has one of the

851
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: biggest road networks on the face of the planet. They

852
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: have three hundred and seventy thousand miles of roads. They

853
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 2: have a six billion dollar backrop log because they can't

854
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: maintain the roads that we want them to maintain that

855
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: are open roads for all of us to use. And

856
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: so for some people the question is when you're in

857
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: a hole like that, would why not just stop digging? No,

858
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 2: if you need to go in like this is a

859
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: this is a flexible tool if you need to. They've

860
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 2: dressed it up largely in fire treatment but the reality

861
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: is we're down thirty eight percent or something like that

862
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: in fire treatments this year because they fired everybody at

863
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: the bors service. They chased people out.

864
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: But that's that same expediency you see, That's that same

865
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: political expedience you see all the time. We were talking

866
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: about this recently with the with the rolling bag land

867
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 1: protections within one hundred miles of the borders. Oh yeah,

868
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: where you pretend you take what what ever fashionable issue

869
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: there is.

870
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: It was housing last week and this week it's the border.

871
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 1: So when it was the most recent sell off, they

872
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: started out, they're like, what would catch.

873
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: What would catch hold? Affordable housing?

874
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:16,919
Speaker 1: And you take this thing you've always wanted to do

875
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: and put a bottle of You take the same bottle

876
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: of wine, and you put a label on that. The

877
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: label is affordable housing.

878
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 2: Affordable housing cabernet. Yeah. Yeah. And so.

879
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 1: That issue of taking these like expedient things anyways, border security, Yeah,

880
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 1: that's a hot one right now. People want secure borders.

881
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: Let's call rolling back all these wilderness protections. Somehow will

882
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: act like this has to do with border security, and

883
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: this just goes on.

884
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: You know, it makes you the very cynical to look

885
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 2: at it. Yeah, this is why the public doesn't like politics,

886
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 2: because they just see it as cynical and dishonest. But

887
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 2: do you really want to mandate roads in Glacier National

888
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: Park and the Boundary waters and Big Bend National like

889
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 2: literally mandate new roads along the border. You go look

890
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 2: at Santa Atlanta Canyon and Big Bend and it's a

891
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: pretty good not a lot of people and natural boundary.

892
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 3: And it's I mean, it's a huge chunk of the

893
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: Bob Marshall Wilderness here in Montana Rocky Mountain Front, and

894
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 3: then for the entire rest of the state. You can

895
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 3: pretty much drive that right now.

896
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 2: And it also opens up out to one hundred miles

897
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: from the border. It changes the rules for national wildlife refuges,

898
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 2: national parks, wilderness areas to say you can just drive

899
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: wherever you want to go. Now, there are wilderness bills

900
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 2: that actually say, including I think when we did Oregon Mountains,

901
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 2: Desert Peaks, and maybe when Arizona did all those border

902
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 2: wilderness areas. If you're in hot pursuit of somebody who's

903
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: trying to get away, you can follow them, but you

904
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: can't just drive off road for the fun of it,

905
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 2: and those those border roadless areas creates some of the

906
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 2: best impediments to people crossing. Like where people like to

907
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,240
Speaker 2: cross is where you've got like highway to in Mexico

908
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 2: right on one side of the border, and then they

909
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 2: can get to another road on the other side of

910
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: the border and drive like hell. Like these national parks

911
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 2: and wilderness areas actually are an effective, an effective means

912
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: of border control.

913
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 3: Well, that's what's interesting when you go through the Borderland

914
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 3: Protection Act, right, is like it's provided for like basically

915
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 3: all of that is provided for in I suppose like

916
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 3: slightly more cumbersome ways. There's just actual checks and balances

917
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 3: to it.

918
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 2: That's exactly. You actually have to have a conversation between

919
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 2: the Coronado National Forest and the border, which happens every day. Yeah.

920
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,439
Speaker 2: I mean when we wrote the we did the organ

921
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 2: Mountains to Peaks National Monument, and then we came back

922
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: afterwards and designated wilderness inside of that monument, and we

923
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 2: had a ton of conversations with the Border Patrol and

924
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: I went out there and I looked at where their

925
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 2: important facilities were and we made sure that we took

926
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 2: that into account and that they could see from certain

927
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 2: high points to be able to surveil the entire border,

928
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: which was actually easier in some of those cases before

929
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 2: we had a ballard wall there so that we could

930
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 2: get people because we could see them coming. So it

931
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 2: was it was all very nuanced because everybody was at

932
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 2: the table, which is kind of when policy actually works.

933
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 3: And then like in the Roadless Rule. I know you

934
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 3: and I have talked about this in the past, right,

935
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: I mean there are some examples of like things provided

936
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 3: for in the Roadless Rule that get litigated to death

937
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 3: in terms of like urban interface timber management. But that's

938
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 3: like a couple thousand acres. And then the fifty eight

939
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,919
Speaker 3: million acre scheme of the Roadless Rule. Yeah, and that's

940
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 3: like the flag that they're waving of, like, well, we

941
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 3: can't cut two thousand acres in what thirty seven states?

942
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 3: So we're going to rescind fifty eight million acres worth

943
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 3: of protections.

944
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: And you know what, if you had fixed our Forests Act,

945
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: which we're trying to get across the Western which would

946
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 2: largely address that in the Senate, I think it's like

947
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 2: Padilla Hickenlooper. But I've been working with that group to

948
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: try that to get that moved and in good shape.

949
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 2: If you had that and then you hired back the

950
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 2: people you chased out of the Forest Service, you could

951
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: do a lot of treatment. I mean, we are seeing

952
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: a giant reduction in the number of acres treated in

953
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: the Southwest because there's nobody to pick up the phone

954
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 2: at the Forest Service.

955
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: We kind of got a little bit sidetracked because we

956
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: were getting to the point of taking a thing, taking

957
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: a current issue, and using it to apply leverage to

958
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 1: an old grievance. And we had mentioned this, like rescinding

959
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: the roleless rule. People will point out, well, this will

960
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: help for fire mitigation because people are like, oh, yeah,

961
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: that's right. Last year, like Palisades, you know, Pacific Palisades

962
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: or whatever, burnt down to the ground.

963
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: This is important, we should do this. There were a

964
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 2: couple of roads in the palisades. Yeah.

965
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, So you take these these current ideas and

966
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: take old grievances and try to get them through.

967
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: But with the but I just feel like on the

968
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 2: roadless thing, there.

969
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: Has to be maybe I'm wrong, there has to be

970
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:51,959
Speaker 1: a specific individual collection of individuals that that have someone's ear,

971
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: and there's like a thing, a specific thing. But I

972
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: think as they would like to see happen. I mean,

973
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: I don't mean be conspiratorial.

974
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 2: But it's Project twenty twenty five. Like so much of

975
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 2: this stuff is things that got that and you know,

976
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: you say things in campaigns, they're not all well thought through,

977
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: and so a lot of this is based on really

978
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 2: very doctrinaire, you know, positions that were taking as part

979
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 2: of the campaign that are now being forced down into

980
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 2: these agencies. Got it?

981
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because it's not like some guy made a

982
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,720
Speaker 1: phone call. It's like, sometimes I could remake the country.

983
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: I would remake it in this deregulated industry first extraction

984
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: first model, which would include X, Y and Z.

985
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 2: And that's RUSS vote at the OMB, the Office of

986
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,439
Speaker 2: Management and Budget, who like helped craft that whole plan

987
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 2: and now it's implementation time. But it doesn't all work

988
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 2: on the ground.

989
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 3: But do you think those people are having the same

990
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 3: conversations with their Now I'm not gonna have to deal

991
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 3: with this.

992
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: But grasshoppers and I don't know about eating bugs. But

993
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what this You will live in a

994
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: natureless world. Okay, here's one that you and I agree

995
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: might disagree on. We've agreed on most these things. Everything

996
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: so far, here's what we might disagree on. I I'm

997
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: going to move to the subject of renewables yep man

998
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: in the same way, the same way that I talk

999
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: about being apprehensive, not apprehensive adversarial toward Ambler Road, or

1000
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: the same way adversarial toward developing the Arctic National Wildlifreo.

1001
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: Is adversarial the right word.

1002
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 2: You don't try to say don't like it.

1003
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: I don't like it when someone talks about doing to

1004
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:56,919
Speaker 1: the doing things to landscapes that would feel that way

1005
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: to the landscape, Like the landscape doesn't know that you're

1006
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: doing this for solar panels or a wind farm or oil.

1007
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: The acreage doesn't know. The acreage doesn't care in some respects,

1008
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: the animals don't care. Like what they know is you

1009
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: industrialized it. And I'm not going to lecture you on this,

1010
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: but that's why I hear your thoughts on it. How

1011
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: do you feel? What do you think when you think

1012
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 1: of taking Bureau of Land Management lands, say yep, and

1013
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: in effect industrializing them for renewables, Like how does that

1014
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:38,919
Speaker 1: balance out in your head?

1015
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 2: So in New Mexico we were kind of like Montana.

1016
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 2: We've got a lot of public land, but we've also

1017
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 2: got a lot of private land, and so we have

1018
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 2: not seen the intense industrial renewable development that I recently

1019
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 2: saw when I went and visited my like where I

1020
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: was born, my aunt in Falla, Nevada, and I spent

1021
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 2: time between Reno and Fallon, and I went, holy shit,

1022
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 2: Like that's that's a very intense use. And I think

1023
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 2: we should avoid that on public lands because there are

1024
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 2: other uses. That's not to say we shouldn't develop those renewables,

1025
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 2: but I don't think public lands should be the first place.

1026
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 2: You know, we just did a three and a half

1027
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 2: gigawatt renewables development in New Mexico.

1028
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: That I how that sounds like a lot?

1029
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like three and a half nuclear power plants.

1030
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 2: It's the biggest clean energy project ever built in the

1031
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 2: Western Hemisphere. It's online, is it is energized and will

1032
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 2: soon off. Takers will soon be taking the power, so

1033
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 2: they electricities up, turbans are spinning, and it's hot. It

1034
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 2: sits on private land around the town of Corona, New Mexico.

1035
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 2: How many acres a lot, and so typically it was

1036
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: giga watsworth, gigawatsworth and it was you know, the local landowners.

1037
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 2: Some liked it and some didn't. And so the ones

1038
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 2: who didn't want a turbine chose not to have a

1039
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 2: turbine on their land. The ones who did are getting

1040
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 2: a substantial amount of you know, it impacted one percent

1041
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 2: of their cover, but it dramatically increased their ability to

1042
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 2: keep that ranch operation viable. That's a more balanced approach,

1043
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 2: I think than when you see solar panels and you

1044
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 2: can't quail hunting that spot anymore, or the a latte

1045
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 2: can't use that public land anymore, and so it becomes

1046
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 2: a more nuanced question that I think applies to. I

1047
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 2: think the lesson that you articulated is it shouldn't matter

1048
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: whether it's traditional energy or new energy. We should be

1049
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 2: looking out trying to make sure that the critters on

1050
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 2: the landscape are not overwhelmed by industrial development.

1051
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 1: What also, let's say the landowners that didn't participate, they

1052
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: don't want them on their land. It is man like,

1053
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: it's a big play on those people to be like,

1054
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 1: they don't want it on their land, but now there's skyline.

1055
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: Everything they look at is nothing but those things, and

1056
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: it probably impacts them negatively on value because now they're

1057
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: in the middle of a wind farm.

1058
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 2: We have not seen data for the second thing. I

1059
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 2: think the first thing is valid, but you also have to,

1060
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 2: like I think there's a recognition in this country right

1061
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 2: now that we need to be a country that can

1062
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: build big things, and so you have to have those

1063
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 2: hard conversations and figure out where the trade off is,

1064
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 2: where the juice is worth the squeeze, and where it's not.

1065
01:01:56,080 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 2: But then that's five hundred and fifty miles of Like,

1066
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 2: I worked on this project for seventeen plus years, my

1067
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 2: entire my entire time in federal public office, and it

1068
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 2: meant twenty billion dollars of economic input into the states

1069
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 2: of New Mexico and Arizona. It meant an enormous amount

1070
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 2: of power onto the grid, a lot of really good jobs.

1071
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 2: And you know, the people building that power line, they

1072
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 2: had a lot of them had Liuna or IBW on

1073
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 2: one side of their hard hat and Trump on the other.

1074
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 2: You know, it's those are the kind of decisions you

1075
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: have to make. But I don't think we need to

1076
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: be stupid about it. There are places that should never,

1077
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 2: never be developed too, and we kind of know where

1078
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 2: those special places are. There's got any comments on that one.

1079
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I guess. I mean that's a tough conversation, right,

1080
01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 3: But so when you talk about like the give and take,

1081
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 3: what was the this is what you're giving up part

1082
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 3: of that conversation and how'd you tackle that?

1083
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of it was around where should all

1084
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 2: of these facilities go? So you know, you don't want

1085
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 2: to when you're doing a wind farm if there's a

1086
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 2: sensitive species like a lesser prairie chicken, that's off the table,

1087
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 2: and if there's when it comes to the route of

1088
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 2: the transmission line, would I I think this whole industry

1089
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 2: is much more sophisticated than it was twenty years ago,

1090
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 2: and we're going to see the same level of unsophistication

1091
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 2: from all these AI data centers. A lot of projects

1092
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 2: got killed twenty years ago because they didn't do the

1093
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 2: front end work. You go in and you talk to everybody.

1094
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: You talk to the landowners, you talk to the conservation groups,

1095
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 2: you talk to the county. One of the other lessons

1096
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 2: is if you want tolerance for a project, there better

1097
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 2: be some direct benefit to the people who are impacted

1098
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 2: by that project. And that's that's all. Like in China,

1099
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 2: they just you know, send a send an email and

1100
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 2: say we're doing this and this dam is really important,

1101
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 2: so your house is going to have to You're gonna

1102
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 2: have to move.

1103
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 1: The whole public comment period, do not do the.

1104
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 2: Public commat period. We took eighteen years to try and

1105
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 2: get that balance right.

1106
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 3: And then are there like replace you know, we always

1107
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 3: talk about replacement costs, which is largely like on public

1108
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 3: land a lot, but on a private So the in

1109
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 3: like you're talking about.

1110
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 2: In terms of one of the things the developer did

1111
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 2: is there in the midst of buying habitat in both

1112
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:41,440
Speaker 2: Arizona and New Mexico. In the case of New Mexico,

1113
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 2: it's like to protect very you know uh Riparian both

1114
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 2: sky habitat that we're not getting more of right that

1115
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 2: comes with water rights. That's really super precious stuff, the

1116
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 2: kind of thing you would see at a national wildlife

1117
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 2: refuge like Bosca, Dell Apache or state wildlife management areas.

1118
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 2: And then they're in the state of Arizona. I think

1119
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 2: because the local constituents were different and had different needs,

1120
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 2: they're actually looking at a gave uh preservation like protecting

1121
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 2: at GAVI's that are also incredibly important for some of

1122
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 2: the bats that have been in decline in in the

1123
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 2: Sonora and country.

1124
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:28,400
Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, so it's like replacing wildlife services would or

1125
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 3: what is it sorry, I'm space when we're talking about

1126
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 3: like a chunk of blam, it's the environmental services, habitat

1127
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 3: services replacing those for whatever the project is, exactly right.

1128
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 3: That's why I Conico Phillips is huge with the greater

1129
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 3: sage grouse right, Like they replace they got to replace

1130
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 3: a lot of sage grouse habitat.

1131
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you know what I told them was

1132
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 2: early on, I'm like, Okay, if if you're going to have,

1133
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 2: for example, if there's going to be a situation where

1134
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 2: sandhills or other waterfowl are gonna we're gonna lose the

1135
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 2: to crashing into these towers, let's make sure we have

1136
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 2: more than enough habitat to more than compensate for that. Yeah.

1137
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: In your view, am I right or wrong in thinking that, uh,

1138
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 1: we ought to be leaning into nuclear power from a

1139
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 1: habitat preservation standpoint, meaning it's it's local, it's localized, it's

1140
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 1: a lot of bang for your buck. When it comes

1141
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 1: to acreage, there's a there's a I'm recognizing Chernobyl three

1142
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: Mile Island, like, there's some real catastrophes that have come

1143
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 1: out of this in the past. But when I you know,

1144
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 1: I look, not being an expert, by looking, I'm like, man,

1145
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 1: I feel like we should be revisiting this.

1146
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 2: Is it safer?

1147
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 1: Can it be made safer because it allows us to

1148
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 1: hang on to wildlife habitat and make juice?

1149
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 2: Yep, No, I think so. And I think what gives

1150
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 2: the biggest challenge for nuclear is that historically it's never

1151
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 2: been able to be produced cheap enough to compete with

1152
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 2: other sources of power on the grid.

1153
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 6: And I know I didn't even know that that was

1154
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 6: that that was true. Oh yeah, yeah, it's considered an

1155
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 6: expensive way. Oh yeah, very much. But the idea, so

1156
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 6: you have these light water reactors that are the last

1157
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 6: forty years worth of nuclear development in this country, including

1158
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 6: two that got put on the grid during the Biden

1159
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:37,920
Speaker 6: administration in Georgia, the first time in years we actually

1160
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 6: put a lightwater reactor on the grid. Those are the

1161
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 6: sort of traditional, big, complicated and often big overruns in cost.

1162
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 6: What's being attempted right now is to create small, modular reactors.

1163
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 6: So the idea is to have something that's more inherently

1164
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 6: safe in terms of if you lose power having an accident,

1165
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 6: it just trends towards stability. You don't have like this

1166
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 6: Rube Goldberg thing where you have to do a whole

1167
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 6: bunch of stuff to cool this thing off, and if

1168
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 6: you can't cool it off, you're in big trouble. And

1169
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 6: then you have the situation that Japan went through a

1170
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 6: few years ago.

1171
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, forgot, I forgot that one when I named Yeah,

1172
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 1: I should name that one, and not Chernobyl.

1173
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then if they're small and simple in their design,

1174
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:29,600
Speaker 2: you actually get the advantage that you get in a

1175
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 2: factory of bringing down cost over time. So every every

1176
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 2: time the number of solar panels in the country doubled,

1177
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 2: the cost for solar panels went down twenty percent. So

1178
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 2: it started out at like seventy seven dollars a lot

1179
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 2: and then it landed well under a dollar a lot. Yep.

1180
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 2: You can start to get a natural reduction in costs

1181
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 2: if you can make them small and modular. And the

1182
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 2: idea is if you can do that, and then there's

1183
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 2: there's this willingness to pay more for power right now

1184
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 2: because of all these data centered demands that you can

1185
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 2: have a new nuclear renaissance that is safer, that is

1186
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 2: more tailored to you know, you can have one or

1187
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 2: you can have five, depending on what your needs are.

1188
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:18,920
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of work being done in that

1189
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:22,600
Speaker 2: space right now by some really good companies, and I

1190
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 2: think hopefully literally the next few years we're going to

1191
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:27,799
Speaker 2: see the first of those come online.

1192
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: I'm going to grows to oversimplify something and say that

1193
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 1: there is a partisan nature to energy sources.

1194
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:41,759
Speaker 2: Yep, you know, but with nuclear that I'm just okay

1195
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 2: being facetious.

1196
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: I thought you're being like legitimate skeptical. So I mean, like,

1197
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 1: you know, the American left generally supportive of renewables, the

1198
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,839
Speaker 1: American right generally supportive of fossil fuels.

1199
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 2: Just I mean, just generally, what like.

1200
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 1: Is there a heart isn't split a nuclear There was

1201
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 1: a fashionable for one side or the other to like it.

1202
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 2: There was for a long time, and what was it?

1203
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:14,599
Speaker 2: It was largely like you had, you know, after Three

1204
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 2: Mile Island, there were a lot of traditional environmental groups

1205
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 2: that worked very hard to put a stop to nuclear power.

1206
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:26,840
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of conflation too, between nuclear power

1207
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:31,760
Speaker 2: and weapons and you know I talked to the Iranians

1208
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 2: about that. Yeah. I worked in a research reactor in college.

1209
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:39,360
Speaker 2: I then moved out to New Mexico where we have

1210
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 2: Sandia National Labs and Los Alamos National Labs. What I've

1211
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:48,719
Speaker 2: seen change over the course of the last eighteen years

1212
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 2: is there are a lot more Democrats now from states

1213
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 2: like Delaware, Rhode Island, New Jersey like including some very

1214
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 2: progressive memory like Corey Booker, who have embraced nuclear and

1215
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 2: so it's become pretty darn by partisan. And in fact,

1216
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 2: in the last Congress there was I think it's called

1217
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:13,560
Speaker 2: the Advance Act that we moved all the way to

1218
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:18,600
Speaker 2: the President's desk to try to pivot and have the

1219
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 2: right regulatory environment for some of these new designs and

1220
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 2: to have an American nuclear renaissance. And one step beyond that,

1221
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 2: just to make it interesting, is because I come from

1222
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 2: a technical background, I've always been fascinated with fusion because

1223
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:38,720
Speaker 2: we've we've understood the physics forever, we just couldn't get

1224
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 2: the engineering stuff figured out. And I think we're seeing

1225
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 2: investment flow into fusion companies in a way that has

1226
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:51,760
Speaker 2: never happened in the past. And so I think that

1227
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:55,160
Speaker 2: that's a you know, down the road, keep an eye

1228
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:56,520
Speaker 2: on that, Okay.

1229
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: I'd be lying of like if you, you know, I

1230
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 1: could tell my kids all about the water wars coming up.

1231
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 1: If if I got under a lot of pressure to

1232
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 1: break down fission infusion, it's pretty try to bring it

1233
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: back around to the water wars.

1234
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:20,720
Speaker 2: In fissions you're breaking stuff apart, and infusion you're squeezing

1235
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 2: it all together.

1236
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 1: I could have said that, but that would that would

1237
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 1: be the end. And as someone st but what does

1238
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 1: that mean, I would say, I'm not I don't know.

1239
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means. In fission, and you

1240
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 2: also have a lot of waste products and infusion typically

1241
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 2: you don't and so that's another advantage which one generates

1242
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:43,879
Speaker 2: waste fission. So every light water reactor is a fission reactor.

1243
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,720
Speaker 2: And we have have always had this challenge of what

1244
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 2: do you do with all those uh spent nuclear rods? Okaya? Oh?

1245
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 2: Speaking of which, where in my garage? It's usually where

1246
01:12:57,160 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 2: these things go.

1247
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 1: This is this is just a little side note. Where

1248
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:03,639
Speaker 1: does it stand?

1249
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 2: Do you remember?

1250
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 1: And maybe it's still an issue the Yucca Mountain Repository fight.

1251
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: What came of that where is all the stuff that

1252
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:16,759
Speaker 1: was going to go in Yucca Mountain.

1253
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,519
Speaker 2: It's it's sitting at a bunch of sites around the

1254
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 2: country at lightwater reactors, primarily sitting in cooling pools.

1255
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 1: So they's never it's we've for now abandoned the idea

1256
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 1: of having a central repository.

1257
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 2: Certainly and deep within the earth in Nevada because there

1258
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 2: was never buy in from Nevada, which is a tough way.

1259
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: You know, that's a real tough sell.

1260
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 2: And you had Republicans and Democrats who represented Nevada over

1261
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 2: the years, including a majority leader. I mean, that's not

1262
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 2: a recipe for success.

1263
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:53,560
Speaker 1: No, it's it's like, if you put it to a

1264
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 1: national vote, you know, it'd be funny to see how

1265
01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: the vote would split with people that lived in the state.

1266
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 1: A bunch of time, let's put it in your state.

1267
01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 2: I've had California senators who are no longer with us

1268
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 2: look at New Mexico and go, oh, we're going to

1269
01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 2: send all this to you. And that's a real dynamic

1270
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 2: in Congress, same party as me. But you know, meanwhile,

1271
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,280
Speaker 2: we've done our part. We actually have a deep salt

1272
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 2: repository that we use for transuranic waste, not for power waste,

1273
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:31,559
Speaker 2: but for things that the government has done over the years.

1274
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:34,120
Speaker 2: And so New Mexico, in my view, has kind of

1275
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 2: done our part. Okay, what is what was that word used?

1276
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 2: Trans transuranic waste, And it's it's waste from the production

1277
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 2: of our nuclear deterrent that is being stored deep underground

1278
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 2: in in salt.

1279
01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:53,800
Speaker 1: And you know, you put the like excavated into salt exactly, so.

1280
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 2: Like literally there's a very deep elevator they excavate out

1281
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 2: from there. They put the canis stirs from you know,

1282
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:07,000
Speaker 2: Los Alamos or Idaho National lab or wherever into those

1283
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 2: blocks of salt, into those open caverns of salt, and

1284
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,679
Speaker 2: then over the time, over time, the salt actually moves

1285
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:16,760
Speaker 2: back in and just encapsulate right next to the arc

1286
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 2: of the Covenant. What else it is New Mexico.

1287
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 1: A pair of truck keys I'm missing? Okay, here here's

1288
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:31,960
Speaker 1: one that's gonna blow people's minds.

1289
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 2: There's a.

1290
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:37,920
Speaker 1: Lot of talk about a lot of talk in certain

1291
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 1: political circles about us having too much public land. Too

1292
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: much public land, not something I tend to complain about,

1293
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 1: but there is like this, like we should we got

1294
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 1: too much public land. H You've been involved in a

1295
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,520
Speaker 1: number of You've been involved in a number of exploits

1296
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 1: which have generated public land. Uh tell us those stories

1297
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 1: you mentioned Savonosa people love it.

1298
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the thing is I mean, yeah, I'm really

1299
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:06,360
Speaker 2: intrigued with Montana. I want to spend more time here.

1300
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 2: But there are a lot of folks on the land here.

1301
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,799
Speaker 2: Like there's a lot if you go hiking or fishing.

1302
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 2: You know, my constituents want more places to hunt fish,

1303
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 2: sit around the campfire with their best friends and their

1304
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 2: family members and make great memories. And it's a proven

1305
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 2: economic generator. So uh, I have never found it a

1306
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:37,280
Speaker 2: negative to create, for example, a new wildlife management area

1307
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:40,400
Speaker 2: in New Mexico, or to use landed water conservation fund

1308
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 2: dollars too. You know, we we Actually the Vice Caldera

1309
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:49,360
Speaker 2: National Preserve is an interesting model in that it is

1310
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 2: managed by the Park Service. But the way I wrote

1311
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 2: the legislation, the the the management of the elk hunt

1312
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 2: is it's a New Mexico gaming fish and so it is,

1313
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:05,640
Speaker 2: in my view, one of the best managed pieces of

1314
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:07,639
Speaker 2: public ground in the West.

1315
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 1: That's a very interesting that's an interesting formula to.

1316
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 2: Me, Yeah, because we wanted we you know, we knew

1317
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:18,000
Speaker 2: what we had the community buy in. They wanted all

1318
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 2: of these geologic resources, the volcanism, the the incredible of

1319
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 2: you would love this obsidian minds there that produced weapons

1320
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,960
Speaker 2: grade you know, points for all over the Western United

1321
01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 2: States in Mexico, all of those things. Everybody knew the

1322
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 2: Park Service was the best thing to take care of those.

1323
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 2: But they also wanted it to be a continued tradition

1324
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 2: of fishing and elk hunting in particular, and so we

1325
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:54,400
Speaker 2: figured out a way to do that, and in my view,

1326
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 2: it's been an amazing success. It is really really healthy

1327
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 2: and you can walk off of one of the main

1328
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 2: gravel roads there and have a bull elk bugling at

1329
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 2: one o'clock in the afternoon fifty yards off the road.

1330
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 2: It's a different dynamic. It's like how elk used to

1331
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 2: be before they were all pressured because they have good

1332
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:20,479
Speaker 2: travel management, but they also have this incredible back country

1333
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 2: elcut yep, yep.

1334
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:27,280
Speaker 1: And then but get into the most recent story, there's

1335
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 1: a there's a tribal component to it of a ranch that.

1336
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:34,040
Speaker 2: We're talking about. VIA's coldera.

1337
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, the one you guys just worked on.

1338
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 2: The Lbar. Yeah, okay, So Elbar Elbar used to be

1339
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:46,800
Speaker 2: one ranch. When it came up for sale a few

1340
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 2: years ago, it had been split into two ranches. It's

1341
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:54,599
Speaker 2: in an area that's incredibly important to the Pueblos, which

1342
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:57,719
Speaker 2: are a group of a little less than two dozen

1343
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:04,559
Speaker 2: tribes in New Mexico and one in Texas. And it's

1344
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 2: around Mount Taylor, which is a very important religious site

1345
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:12,160
Speaker 2: for both Pueblos and the Navajo Nation. When it came

1346
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 2: up for sale, people were like, we haven't been in

1347
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 2: there in generations, and so we made a run at

1348
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,400
Speaker 2: making it a wildlife management area. So there were a

1349
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 2: lot of national environmental groups that do this kind of work,

1350
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:28,840
Speaker 2: and maybe environmental is not the right work, but the

1351
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 2: people who do you know, who actually buy land to

1352
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 2: protect it.

1353
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:38,240
Speaker 1: So this is a this is a family family that

1354
01:19:38,439 --> 01:19:42,599
Speaker 1: is they've decided it is time to sell, and they put.

1355
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:46,599
Speaker 2: It on selling it as a trophy property to somebody

1356
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,800
Speaker 2: from out of state. They were in discussions with Trust

1357
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:54,519
Speaker 2: for Public Land about let's make this a wildlife management area.

1358
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:57,320
Speaker 2: So we had to raise trying to remember, it was

1359
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:00,400
Speaker 2: a fifty four thousand acre property split between two pieces

1360
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:03,200
Speaker 2: and we had to raise thirty four million dollars in

1361
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,720
Speaker 2: thirteen months. But people were excited about it, and the

1362
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:10,760
Speaker 2: pueblos went to the legislature and the governor and said,

1363
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,400
Speaker 2: this would be really great. Wildlife management areas have tags

1364
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:18,240
Speaker 2: that go to residents, so that attracted a certain segment

1365
01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 2: of the population in a state where we don't. We

1366
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,559
Speaker 2: frankly as residents struggle to get tags in New Mexico

1367
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 2: because our balance is not what it is in other states.

1368
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:31,959
Speaker 2: And so we had this amazing coming together of forces

1369
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 2: and were able to in thirteen months create fifty four

1370
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 2: thousand acres of new public land.

1371
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:42,200
Speaker 1: But like, where did that chunk of money? I mean,

1372
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:45,200
Speaker 1: how much did the state have that they were willing

1373
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 1: to dedicate it to it? Like, where does that money

1374
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 1: come from that fast?

1375
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:53,599
Speaker 2: There were some people who who gave zero interest loans

1376
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:56,519
Speaker 2: to get it to close in the amount of time,

1377
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:57,400
Speaker 2: Like there.

1378
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 1: Were don't like effectively a donor.

1379
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. Uh, I will name check one

1380
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 2: Johnny Morris really from Best pro and a number of

1381
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 2: other people that that stepped forward and wrote checks.

1382
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 1: So that like understanding that time that mattered, Yeah, time.

1383
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:19,960
Speaker 2: That the real limit here was not that we weren't

1384
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:21,559
Speaker 2: going to be able to raise the money, but could

1385
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 2: we do it in the time that mattered. The legislature

1386
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,360
Speaker 2: stepped forward, you know, we had those Pueblo leaders governors

1387
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 2: going to the governor and the legislature and saying, we

1388
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:33,400
Speaker 2: got to do this now. One of the really innovative

1389
01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:36,280
Speaker 2: things that we did on that project was state game

1390
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:40,960
Speaker 2: and fish have those dollars that come from the FEDS

1391
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:44,320
Speaker 2: in terms of Pittman Robertson dollars, right, but they weren't

1392
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:46,599
Speaker 2: sitting on a pile of it. So we said, if

1393
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 2: we if some folks will help TPL close this deal,

1394
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:54,200
Speaker 2: we can pay them back as our Pittman Robertson dollars

1395
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:58,680
Speaker 2: come in over time. So the financing recoganism was as

1396
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:02,759
Speaker 2: creative it is really what made that deal come together.

1397
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 2: And now we have a I mean, it's fifty four

1398
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:08,720
Speaker 2: thousand acres, but it's adjacent to a very special unit

1399
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:13,439
Speaker 2: of National Force Service land. It's adjacent to a number

1400
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 2: of BLM Wilderness study areas, and so the complex there

1401
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 2: is really special. And I used to, you know, when

1402
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:24,479
Speaker 2: I was guiding outdoor groups back in the late nineties

1403
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 2: I used to sit on top of Mount Taylor and

1404
01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:30,760
Speaker 2: look at that landscape and be like, man, I would

1405
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 2: like to hunt elkin. There. We have already reintroduced thanks

1406
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 2: to the good folks at New Mexico Game and Fish,

1407
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 2: we've already reintroduced pronghorn back into that landscape within the

1408
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:44,439
Speaker 2: first two years.

1409
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:49,200
Speaker 1: Oh that's wild man gratulations on that one. Who was

1410
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:52,599
Speaker 1: the on that on putting that convoluted process together?

1411
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:55,080
Speaker 2: Who is the.

1412
01:22:57,720 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 1: You know, I think of people that spend their lives

1413
01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 1: and mergers acquisitions.

1414
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:02,040
Speaker 2: Who is.

1415
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:07,760
Speaker 1: Who, like what agency? Who is doing the Like Okay,

1416
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:10,680
Speaker 1: here's this money and that'll come in this pot, but

1417
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:13,240
Speaker 1: then they're going to need their money back by that date.

1418
01:23:13,320 --> 01:23:15,439
Speaker 1: And this money's coming in no strings attached.

1419
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 2: And so in this case, Trust for Public Land was

1420
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:22,559
Speaker 2: the lead NGO, and they're doing all the bean counting. Yeah,

1421
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 2: and this is a guy that I've worked with on

1422
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of land deals over the years, and

1423
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:30,320
Speaker 2: they started out as little tiny land deals and you know,

1424
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:33,600
Speaker 2: filling and in holding here and there. And when this

1425
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 2: one came up, he was like, you need to come

1426
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 2: see this property. And when I saw it, I was sold.

1427
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:41,479
Speaker 2: I mean there were elk running everywhere, and there was

1428
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:43,960
Speaker 2: a big flock of turkeys, and it had all of

1429
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:47,679
Speaker 2: these different elevations, so it had both summer and winter

1430
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:52,559
Speaker 2: range habitat, a lot of vertical habit that potentially could

1431
01:23:52,600 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 2: be bighorn sheep reintroduction sites in the future. And so

1432
01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:01,360
Speaker 2: I just played a role of connecting people. And then

1433
01:24:01,400 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 2: we had leaders at the state legislature that did an

1434
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 2: incredible job. There's a there's a guy there, a state

1435
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:12,120
Speaker 2: representative who is the chair of the State of the

1436
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:15,560
Speaker 2: Finance Committee in the House, Nathan Small, who was a

1437
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:20,519
Speaker 2: real leader on this, and so Trust for Public Land

1438
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 2: was the glue. And then there were a whole bunch

1439
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:26,479
Speaker 2: of other people that found ways to bring resources to

1440
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:28,679
Speaker 2: the table and the timeframe that needed to be done.

1441
01:24:33,360 --> 01:24:39,599
Speaker 1: Here's a civics question. Okay, you're you're a US senator.

1442
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 1: So your mandate is the go represent the people in

1443
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:43,479
Speaker 1: New Mexico and Washington, d C.

1444
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:46,880
Speaker 2: On federal policy. What is it?

1445
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:49,719
Speaker 1: What is the dynamic when you knock on the door

1446
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:54,479
Speaker 1: of like New Mexico's Wildlife Department, New Mexico Game fished you,

1447
01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:56,599
Speaker 1: I mean, is there a little bit like what are

1448
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 1: you doing here, you.

1449
01:24:57,400 --> 01:25:03,760
Speaker 2: Know sometimes yeah, yeah, sometimes, But in New Mexico, we

1450
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:07,280
Speaker 2: have a long history and we are a state that

1451
01:25:07,479 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 2: is Are you familiar with the phrase the resource curse?

1452
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 2: You know, It's like there are a lot of countries

1453
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:19,439
Speaker 2: that have had commodity economies and it makes it harder

1454
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:22,640
Speaker 2: to do the new things and makes it harder to diversify.

1455
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:25,840
Speaker 2: It makes it harder to and so I've always believed

1456
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 2: that when you have you know, you have challenge, real

1457
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 2: challenges with inner generational poverty, when you don't have as

1458
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:36,800
Speaker 2: many good jobs as you would like to have, like

1459
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 2: we have a lot of challenges in New Mexico, and

1460
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:42,439
Speaker 2: I have always believed I am not going to stay

1461
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:45,559
Speaker 2: in my federal lane. I will work with anyone who

1462
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:48,599
Speaker 2: wants to work with me, whether that's a city councilor

1463
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:51,200
Speaker 2: who's just trying to bring a really good business to

1464
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:55,760
Speaker 2: their community, whether that's somebody at the state House who

1465
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:59,880
Speaker 2: wants to work on a wildlife management area. Like I

1466
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:03,280
Speaker 2: have run my office in a different way. We're not

1467
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:06,000
Speaker 2: a think tank. It's not just my job to vote

1468
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 2: on individual pieces of legislation. If if we have a

1469
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:15,679
Speaker 2: team of people who can make something better in the state,

1470
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:18,479
Speaker 2: even if it's not clearly in my lane, I will

1471
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 2: help guys. Got what do you guys got?

1472
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 3: Do you want to go back to ping pong balls?

1473
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? Hit him with the ping pong that very poetic. Actually, well, no,

1474
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:31,760
Speaker 2: he likes it.

1475
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:33,800
Speaker 1: He didn't like the analogy in one place where I

1476
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:34,759
Speaker 1: applied it, But go ahead.

1477
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 3: Uh, Waters of the United States, that's like, that's a

1478
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:42,599
Speaker 3: ping pong ball. It's getting battered around heavily.

1479
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:44,120
Speaker 2: And I'm notice.

1480
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:49,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, for our our hunting folks, like

1481
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:54,639
Speaker 3: the intermittent streams, intermittent wetlands, we still hear a lot

1482
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 3: of sound bites from people being like, you know, these

1483
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:02,439
Speaker 3: wetlands sometimes not even wet, you know, which is exactly

1484
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:11,760
Speaker 3: God almighty, what uh? How much do you deal with this?

1485
01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:17,639
Speaker 2: A little bit? We're trying in New Mexico to get

1486
01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:22,280
Speaker 2: primacy back in the hands of the state groundwork first,

1487
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 2: so people know what we're talking about. So if if

1488
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 2: the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency who historically has been

1489
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 2: in charge of making sure that wetlands don't get just

1490
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:38,080
Speaker 2: plowed up and developed, willy nilly, is not going to

1491
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:43,519
Speaker 2: do that because the Waters of the US rule and

1492
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:47,760
Speaker 2: the court rulings have said, if you're not connected to

1493
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 2: the Mississippi River, you're not really a wetland. In New Mexico.

1494
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:55,920
Speaker 2: That's everything, like the entire members may out closed. We

1495
01:27:56,120 --> 01:28:00,519
Speaker 2: have our even the Rio Rangos dry sometimes yea in

1496
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:04,599
Speaker 2: modern day. You know the climate that we're in now,

1497
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 2: so we basically cannot rely on the FEDS to protect

1498
01:28:09,479 --> 01:28:13,200
Speaker 2: those resources. And nothing is more like New Mexico is

1499
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:15,840
Speaker 2: a place that'll go to war over water, I mean

1500
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:20,559
Speaker 2: waters everything, whether you're reliant on it for agriculture, relying

1501
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:24,360
Speaker 2: on it for industry. Everybody recognizes it is the single

1502
01:28:24,439 --> 01:28:27,960
Speaker 2: biggest limiting factor in a n arid state. And so

1503
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 2: the state is now working on taking that back and

1504
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:35,680
Speaker 2: creating a structure to be able to protect waters in

1505
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:39,960
Speaker 2: the state on their own without relying on the EPA interesting,

1506
01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 2: and I think you'll see that in a number of

1507
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 2: places over the coming years.

1508
01:28:43,479 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 1: But can you can you explain a little bit We

1509
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:47,760
Speaker 1: did a show on as years ago, but can you

1510
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:49,720
Speaker 1: explain a little bit just sort of the core of

1511
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:53,599
Speaker 1: the question, even outside of New Mexico, just a little

1512
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:56,080
Speaker 1: background for people, and go back to that thing where

1513
01:28:56,120 --> 01:29:02,599
Speaker 1: I said, picture the Mississippi. So this this like it's

1514
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 1: like for terms of national security, industry, energy, the US

1515
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:11,639
Speaker 1: has a vested interest in protecting the Mississippi River, right,

1516
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:17,320
Speaker 1: And there's this sort of political question of how far

1517
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:21,960
Speaker 1: upstream and in the thousands of directions if you follow

1518
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:25,360
Speaker 1: all those rivers, and in all the tributaries of those rivers,

1519
01:29:25,400 --> 01:29:28,360
Speaker 1: and in all the marshes that feed those tributaries, how

1520
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:34,400
Speaker 1: far upstream is it America's business, that's right, what happens there,

1521
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:36,040
Speaker 1: and the ping pong being.

1522
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:43,600
Speaker 2: A very different Supreme court over time, and a pendulum

1523
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:49,599
Speaker 2: swing from protecting a lot of wetlands. I mean, remember

1524
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:52,760
Speaker 2: when Daffy Duck was like the spokesperson for wetlands and

1525
01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:56,479
Speaker 2: that was like a thing for a while. I think

1526
01:29:56,479 --> 01:30:00,720
Speaker 2: it was under the Bush administration maybe too time now

1527
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:04,759
Speaker 2: where even if that a wetland is connected to another wetland,

1528
01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 2: but it's all subsurface, it's not on the surface, like

1529
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 2: it's not really considered protected. And so it's been a

1530
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:15,000
Speaker 2: big pendulum swing. And the question is, if you care

1531
01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 2: about wetlands and you're in this new world where the

1532
01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:21,880
Speaker 2: FEDS are not going to protect wetlands at EPA, what

1533
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:26,080
Speaker 2: are our other tools, and that hence your move or

1534
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:30,480
Speaker 2: hence New Mexico looking at taking that over themselves.

1535
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:34,240
Speaker 3: Right, And this comes back to like what can you

1536
01:30:34,360 --> 01:30:37,120
Speaker 3: do on your private property? Right, Like that's kind of

1537
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:42,559
Speaker 3: like the the big question trying to be balanced out

1538
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:47,040
Speaker 3: with the fact that like our prairie potholes, right, those

1539
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:52,160
Speaker 3: are our our migratory bird factories. Yes, all sorts of

1540
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:55,840
Speaker 3: migratory birds, not just the ones we eat, and plus

1541
01:30:55,920 --> 01:30:56,800
Speaker 3: our pollinators.

1542
01:30:57,360 --> 01:30:59,240
Speaker 2: And there are a lot of things that are just

1543
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:04,240
Speaker 2: flat out exempted from from the Clean Water Act. I mean,

1544
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:09,360
Speaker 2: much of the agricultural impact in the Midwest, you know

1545
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 2: what tiling is, Yeah, where you're like that that's largely

1546
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:16,960
Speaker 2: exempted from from you know, the Clean Water Act.

1547
01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, tiling refers to and we were kind of

1548
01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 1: like in the tiling capital of the world a while ago,

1549
01:31:22,160 --> 01:31:25,040
Speaker 1: duck Hunt. But tiling refers to is.

1550
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:27,679
Speaker 2: This Illinois or where we were in South Dakota.

1551
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:30,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe not the capital, but it was a real conversation.

1552
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:32,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, because of the downstream effects.

1553
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, to refers to putting in you're basically putting in

1554
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:39,719
Speaker 1: perforated pipe and other pipe and just moving water faster,

1555
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:43,400
Speaker 1: moving water out to take land that would be too

1556
01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:45,600
Speaker 1: saturated to cultivate and drying it out so.

1557
01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:46,360
Speaker 2: You can cultivate it.

1558
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:50,520
Speaker 1: So you're grow opening up massive acreage of of previously

1559
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:55,640
Speaker 1: two wetland wetlands, drying them out to plant them.

1560
01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:59,000
Speaker 2: And then you're also impacting your your flood spikes because

1561
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:02,600
Speaker 2: now that water's going into the system much faster. So

1562
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:06,320
Speaker 2: if you're going to have a flood peak moved down

1563
01:32:06,560 --> 01:32:09,800
Speaker 2: a given watercourse, it's going to be a much steeper peak,

1564
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:14,639
Speaker 2: and so you've lubed the whole thing up. Yeah.

1565
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:18,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were looking at I mean, there's always more

1566
01:32:18,160 --> 01:32:20,080
Speaker 3: than one thing happening at the same time. We were

1567
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 3: looking at like real downstream effects of this in areas

1568
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:28,120
Speaker 3: like outside of Aberdeen and Watertown, South Dakota, where it

1569
01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:30,679
Speaker 3: was like a post apocalyptic.

1570
01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:33,839
Speaker 1: Landscape, right, like the farm is underwater, the grain silo

1571
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:34,760
Speaker 1: is sticking up still.

1572
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

1573
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:39,599
Speaker 3: And side benefit there's people out there and really fancy

1574
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 3: boats catching eleven inch.

1575
01:32:41,280 --> 01:32:45,880
Speaker 1: Perch yeah right, or getting a lot of ducks, getting

1576
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:51,040
Speaker 1: a lot of ducks, but also people fishing, catching fish

1577
01:32:51,080 --> 01:32:52,200
Speaker 1: off people's driveways.

1578
01:32:52,439 --> 01:32:52,639
Speaker 2: Wow.

1579
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:56,160
Speaker 1: Or these guys explaining to us that the really good

1580
01:32:56,280 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 1: walleye fishing is the submerged roads, the county road, the

1581
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:05,360
Speaker 1: county the embankment that the wall. I really like to

1582
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:10,920
Speaker 1: lay on the embankment of the county road in places

1583
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:14,720
Speaker 1: where you can weighed you can put chess waiters on

1584
01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 1: and wide the county road and just work the work

1585
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:22,880
Speaker 1: the embankments because there's a wall. I layd on the embankments.

1586
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:26,240
Speaker 2: It was surreal, It was it was impact. Was that

1587
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:33,800
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of them twenty twenty surreal. Yeah, you're like, oh.

1588
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:35,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great fishes weighed down the road and you're

1589
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:39,840
Speaker 1: basically fishing the ditch. Yeah yeah, but yeah, I mean

1590
01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:41,400
Speaker 1: that's the supersold laugh about.

1591
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:44,439
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like interesting one because like that was

1592
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:51,960
Speaker 3: a huge, huge habitat Hunter led fight for so many years.

1593
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:55,280
Speaker 3: Like coincide with with where duck stamp dollars went, which

1594
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:59,400
Speaker 3: I know you're very familiar with, and and the rise

1595
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:04,519
Speaker 3: of ducks on limited and preserving the Duck factories, right,

1596
01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:08,559
Speaker 3: and now that pendulum swung so far the other way,

1597
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:11,760
Speaker 3: and I'm like, where the hell's the education that we

1598
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 3: just had twenty thirty years ago on this subject? Like

1599
01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 3: everybody should be up in arms on this one.

1600
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:20,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I need I need to I need to clarify

1601
01:34:20,920 --> 01:34:23,760
Speaker 1: a thing. I kind of we kind of jump. So

1602
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:27,360
Speaker 1: when we were in an area where tiling was very

1603
01:34:27,479 --> 01:34:30,160
Speaker 1: much part of the conversation, I don't want to conflate.

1604
01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:31,880
Speaker 2: I'm kind of conflating two things.

1605
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:36,160
Speaker 1: We were in an area where locals were talking a

1606
01:34:36,240 --> 01:34:39,760
Speaker 1: lot about the impacts of tiling. Happened to be that

1607
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:42,640
Speaker 1: it was also in flood stage. I don't want to

1608
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:46,040
Speaker 1: ConFlat I want listeners to think I'm conflating that that

1609
01:34:46,240 --> 01:34:50,639
Speaker 1: that the tiles caused. You know, there's some like linear

1610
01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:55,000
Speaker 1: relationship between those tiles and that flooding. Just the same trip, right,

1611
01:34:55,160 --> 01:34:58,360
Speaker 1: It was the same trip where we're noticing these two things.

1612
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:00,800
Speaker 1: I do want to tell you because you your water

1613
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:06,000
Speaker 1: rights access guy. There's also this very interesting battle brewing

1614
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:09,400
Speaker 1: at the time there, which was, let's say you have

1615
01:35:09,560 --> 01:35:11,160
Speaker 1: a lake and it's a public lake.

1616
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:15,040
Speaker 3: Which is a state constitution deal in South Dakota two.

1617
01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:16,639
Speaker 3: I think, so it's very interesting.

1618
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:18,920
Speaker 1: This is, yeah, the one we're getting at. So picture

1619
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:21,760
Speaker 1: there's just anyone listening, picture of the lake closest to.

1620
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:23,439
Speaker 2: You that you fish on, and the lake gets a

1621
01:35:23,520 --> 01:35:24,400
Speaker 2: lot bigger.

1622
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:27,880
Speaker 1: Now imagine that the lake is a hundred times larger,

1623
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:34,599
Speaker 1: including its over people's yards. So you have all your

1624
01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:37,160
Speaker 1: life gone to the lake and you've just kind of

1625
01:35:37,240 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 1: gone where the lake is and fished. Well, now you're

1626
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:42,479
Speaker 1: fishing in someone's yard. Right.

1627
01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:44,879
Speaker 2: There was this big fight.

1628
01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:51,080
Speaker 1: Where people were stringing booy lines. People were stringing bowey

1629
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:54,720
Speaker 1: lines to mar what would have been like what they

1630
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:58,600
Speaker 1: understood to be their property line became booey lines, and

1631
01:35:58,680 --> 01:36:02,479
Speaker 1: they're fishing on their side of the buoy. And then

1632
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:04,760
Speaker 1: you got on the other hand, and they're like, the

1633
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 1: lake my ass, I'm in my yard. I'm on my farm.

1634
01:36:10,320 --> 01:36:13,080
Speaker 1: You couldn't come on my farm before. You're now fishing

1635
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:17,120
Speaker 1: my farm. Other guys like, I'm in my boat, I'm

1636
01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:17,679
Speaker 1: on the lake.

1637
01:36:18,840 --> 01:36:21,760
Speaker 3: And part of what was a private lake because it

1638
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:25,640
Speaker 3: was completely surrounded by private land, now stretches out and

1639
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:27,000
Speaker 3: touches the county road.

1640
01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:30,320
Speaker 2: And creates a public access.

1641
01:36:31,200 --> 01:36:33,360
Speaker 1: It was it was so hard to figure out what's

1642
01:36:33,479 --> 01:36:33,720
Speaker 1: I mean.

1643
01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:36,759
Speaker 2: It was one of those where it was one of those.

1644
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:40,840
Speaker 1: Issues where I could very clearly see all sides, but

1645
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:45,479
Speaker 1: I had this incredible bias as a fisherman to be

1646
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:49,360
Speaker 1: to think to myself well, that really opens up a

1647
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:50,040
Speaker 1: lot of spots.

1648
01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:51,000
Speaker 2: Right, if you.

1649
01:36:51,160 --> 01:36:53,519
Speaker 1: Understand how a guy could be like, why are you

1650
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:54,679
Speaker 1: fishing on my farm?

1651
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:56,719
Speaker 3: Right, you're going to be like, oh, listen, I totally

1652
01:36:56,760 --> 01:36:58,360
Speaker 3: get what you're saying. Could you just point to this

1653
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:02,320
Speaker 3: map here and tell us where that windrow was historic?

1654
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:06,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's gonna be crap, he's spawning. Yeah, there's

1655
01:37:06,040 --> 01:37:08,160
Speaker 1: crowdy spawnning on your hedge rope.

1656
01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:12,240
Speaker 2: Historically, was that kind of flooding something that happened and

1657
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:13,160
Speaker 2: I can't.

1658
01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 3: So, yes, because they were I think it was NRCS

1659
01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:23,040
Speaker 3: or USGS was going down and pulling, pulling samples right

1660
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:24,559
Speaker 3: from the old shore line.

1661
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:26,400
Speaker 2: That's another yes.

1662
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:29,200
Speaker 3: And so some of this is like, oh yeah, this

1663
01:37:29,439 --> 01:37:33,400
Speaker 3: is one hundred year floodline stuff. But then it was

1664
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:38,679
Speaker 3: determined to be greatly exacerbated because of acts like tiling,

1665
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:41,920
Speaker 3: re routing water in general things like that.

1666
01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:44,160
Speaker 1: It's like, you're right, they're telling us about that. Like

1667
01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:47,160
Speaker 1: in sort of the who's right argument, they were sort

1668
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:49,719
Speaker 1: of looking at what were historic lake levels?

1669
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:56,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because like Devil's Lake has a great example

1670
01:37:56,479 --> 01:37:58,840
Speaker 3: of like there's a marina that was built here in

1671
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:02,519
Speaker 3: the seventies. Now it's totally underwater, and then there's another

1672
01:38:02,600 --> 01:38:06,160
Speaker 3: one built at this stage and it's a quarter mile

1673
01:38:06,240 --> 01:38:09,000
Speaker 3: from the water type of thing, right, But it was

1674
01:38:09,080 --> 01:38:11,840
Speaker 3: like the water was there long enough for somebody to

1675
01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 3: build around it.

1676
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:17,479
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, that was an interesting, little, oh wild, interesting

1677
01:38:17,520 --> 01:38:18,120
Speaker 2: little venture.

1678
01:38:19,320 --> 01:38:21,960
Speaker 1: What I've asked you a bunch of questions. I'm not

1679
01:38:21,960 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 1: going to invite you to ask me questions, But what

1680
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 1: do you what do you wish we had touched on

1681
01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:28,880
Speaker 1: that we didn't get to.

1682
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:32,680
Speaker 2: I think the biggest story of the year was the

1683
01:38:33,120 --> 01:38:37,439
Speaker 2: public land selloff, right, and that was also the counter narrative.

1684
01:38:37,680 --> 01:38:40,000
Speaker 2: We had a lot of threats to the places that

1685
01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:44,160
Speaker 2: we care about in twenty twenty five. What gives me

1686
01:38:44,360 --> 01:38:50,560
Speaker 2: hope is the breadth of the of the coalition that

1687
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:55,720
Speaker 2: came together around what got dropped on all of us

1688
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:58,040
Speaker 2: out of you know, the thin blue air that no

1689
01:38:58,439 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 2: one necessarily knew for sure that was coming until it happened.

1690
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:09,439
Speaker 2: And I was just blown away by the the breadth

1691
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:12,920
Speaker 2: of that coalition, right like it was. I think at

1692
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:15,280
Speaker 2: one point I joked it was like bunny huggers to

1693
01:39:15,320 --> 01:39:21,280
Speaker 2: bow hunters, like everybody in between. You had RV industry folks,

1694
01:39:21,320 --> 01:39:24,960
Speaker 2: you had oh feed people, you had the greenest of

1695
01:39:25,080 --> 01:39:29,000
Speaker 2: the of the environmental groups, you had the hook and

1696
01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 2: Bullet community, across the sporting sort of spectrum, like people

1697
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:36,559
Speaker 2: just came together. And as soon as that was real,

1698
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:40,120
Speaker 2: and especially once that map got published that the Wilderness

1699
01:39:40,160 --> 01:39:43,040
Speaker 2: Society did, that made it real for people, and it

1700
01:39:43,160 --> 01:39:45,880
Speaker 2: was like, no, it's not actually about housing because these

1701
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:49,639
Speaker 2: like these parcels in the middle of western Alaska.

1702
01:39:49,720 --> 01:39:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, these like these like islands off southeast Alaska.

1703
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:59,880
Speaker 2: People just stepped up and the spontaneous nature of their

1704
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:04,840
Speaker 2: pushback was so it was. It was very much rooted

1705
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:09,080
Speaker 2: in social media. And so normally, as an elected official,

1706
01:40:09,160 --> 01:40:11,080
Speaker 2: you can choose to ignore the people call on the

1707
01:40:11,120 --> 01:40:14,720
Speaker 2: front desk, you can choose to ignore the email. But

1708
01:40:15,360 --> 01:40:18,800
Speaker 2: any member of the Senate is on their phone a

1709
01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:22,360
Speaker 2: good couple hours the day, and they couldn't they couldn't

1710
01:40:22,400 --> 01:40:27,240
Speaker 2: get away from it. Got people were just beside themselves

1711
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:29,840
Speaker 2: and it became a tsunami. And if we could do

1712
01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:33,160
Speaker 2: that on a few other issues, my god, that there're

1713
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:36,920
Speaker 2: sky so limitous to what you could get done, you.

1714
01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 3: Know, And Steve kind of tongue in cheek, he's like

1715
01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:44,559
Speaker 3: he's like so there's too much public land. I think

1716
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:46,960
Speaker 3: if it were accurate, it'd be more like, so I'm

1717
01:40:47,040 --> 01:40:50,559
Speaker 3: told there's too much public land, because it's like it's

1718
01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:53,280
Speaker 3: not the end user that is out there saying there's

1719
01:40:53,280 --> 01:40:54,160
Speaker 3: too much public land.

1720
01:40:54,479 --> 01:40:58,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's like that's the that I bring up

1721
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:00,280
Speaker 1: that same thing all the time around it and I

1722
01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:03,920
Speaker 1: and I like to prod this question is like the deer,

1723
01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:08,600
Speaker 1: too many deer. I'm like, man, all season long, not

1724
01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:10,680
Speaker 1: a single guy has called me to tell me, not

1725
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:12,560
Speaker 1: a single one of my buddies has called me to

1726
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:16,320
Speaker 1: complain about all the deer, the.

1727
01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:20,200
Speaker 2: Just too many deer. I want to ask you, I'm

1728
01:41:20,280 --> 01:41:25,040
Speaker 2: worried about mule deer in particular, and you because I

1729
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:27,479
Speaker 2: you know, I apply for permits in New Mexico and

1730
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:29,680
Speaker 2: my schedules will bear, and so if I have a

1731
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:33,600
Speaker 2: week off that I'm not in d C in October,

1732
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:36,840
Speaker 2: like that's what I'm going to apply for. But you

1733
01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:40,600
Speaker 2: get to see mule deer across their range? Are you

1734
01:41:40,640 --> 01:41:43,120
Speaker 2: worried about the direction with mule deer?

1735
01:41:43,840 --> 01:41:46,200
Speaker 1: Very much so? And this is this is a drop

1736
01:41:46,280 --> 01:41:49,600
Speaker 1: in the bucket, but it's it's it's a drop of

1737
01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:51,720
Speaker 1: the bucket. But it's just like a guidance thing, a

1738
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:57,519
Speaker 1: family guidance thing. I've announced a moratorium for my family.

1739
01:41:57,680 --> 01:41:59,280
Speaker 1: We have a we have a meal.

1740
01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:01,840
Speaker 2: This is gonna like everything. You can't say anything doesn't

1741
01:42:01,840 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 2: piss people off.

1742
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:07,120
Speaker 1: I've announced a family moratorium on the harvest of Meldier

1743
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:10,280
Speaker 1: does because I'm just the same way I'm warning them

1744
01:42:10,280 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 1: about eating the bugs and the fighting the wars over water.

1745
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:17,439
Speaker 1: I'm trying to warn them about a future when Mulder

1746
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 1: are no more, or Mulder aren't a hunt or aren't

1747
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:23,200
Speaker 1: a hunted thing anymore. That's right, Yeah, that they or

1748
01:42:23,360 --> 01:42:27,599
Speaker 1: Mildier become like big horns which used to be able

1749
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:30,320
Speaker 1: to stand. Like you read mountain man accounts and they're

1750
01:42:30,360 --> 01:42:33,000
Speaker 1: counting four hundred big horns on a hill where there

1751
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:35,599
Speaker 1: are no big horns anymore. Right, And now you can

1752
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:37,880
Speaker 1: apply in your state, if you live in the West,

1753
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:39,920
Speaker 1: you can apply in your state for twenty years, for

1754
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:41,920
Speaker 1: thirty years and not hunt a big horn.

1755
01:42:42,120 --> 01:42:44,160
Speaker 2: I apply every year. I've never had a big horn.

1756
01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 1: And they just because they just live in the last

1757
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:50,599
Speaker 1: little remaining pockets of perfect shit where all their enemies

1758
01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:54,960
Speaker 1: can't get them, right, And it's like elk are great,

1759
01:42:55,479 --> 01:42:58,960
Speaker 1: but there's more elk and more places, and it's something's

1760
01:42:58,960 --> 01:43:02,800
Speaker 1: got to pay the price. White tails. I don't want

1761
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:04,200
Speaker 1: to say that, you know, white tails are great.

1762
01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:05,240
Speaker 2: There's a lot of.

1763
01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:07,519
Speaker 1: White tails in a lot of places. Something's got to

1764
01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:10,880
Speaker 1: pay the price. It's like, and it's just again and again,

1765
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:14,559
Speaker 1: mule deer get kicked in the nuts. Yeah, they're they're

1766
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:15,360
Speaker 1: less talentant.

1767
01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:16,439
Speaker 2: I'm really worried about it.

1768
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:18,679
Speaker 1: Anybody can go, like, I got mualder in my yard.

1769
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:20,200
Speaker 1: I see meal deer on the golf course.

1770
01:43:20,240 --> 01:43:22,320
Speaker 2: It's like, you do. That's but there weren't.

1771
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:27,080
Speaker 1: There aren't as many that were there before it happened. Sure,

1772
01:43:27,200 --> 01:43:30,560
Speaker 1: there's still a meal deer that licks your car window right, like,

1773
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:33,280
Speaker 1: I get it, But there were ten there before.

1774
01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:36,120
Speaker 2: And if you go to the hills outside of town

1775
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:38,439
Speaker 2: where they used to be all over the place, you're

1776
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:42,120
Speaker 2: not going to see. Yeah, it's I'm deeply worried about

1777
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:45,360
Speaker 2: mule there this species, and I would I think there

1778
01:43:45,479 --> 01:43:49,080
Speaker 2: is a reticence among state game and fish agencies to

1779
01:43:49,880 --> 01:43:54,000
Speaker 2: admit how bad it is, because then we have to

1780
01:43:54,040 --> 01:43:54,760
Speaker 2: figure something out.

1781
01:43:54,960 --> 01:43:59,040
Speaker 1: Because it's like, and I'm always an advocate of like

1782
01:43:59,520 --> 01:44:05,560
Speaker 1: local you have to have localized regulatory structures. And a

1783
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:08,720
Speaker 1: thing I like to explain when demonstrating the need for

1784
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:13,320
Speaker 1: localized is how is it that we have elk hunting

1785
01:44:13,360 --> 01:44:17,120
Speaker 1: in America when elk have only been recovered on less

1786
01:44:17,240 --> 01:44:21,559
Speaker 1: than twenty percent of their native range. That doesn't make sense. Well,

1787
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:25,600
Speaker 1: because in certain parts of certain states elk are doing fantastic.

1788
01:44:26,439 --> 01:44:29,439
Speaker 1: They're missing from Wisconsin for the most part, they're missing

1789
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:30,519
Speaker 1: from Michigan for the most part.

1790
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:32,120
Speaker 2: They're missing from all these places they were.

1791
01:44:32,280 --> 01:44:34,880
Speaker 1: But in some places we have them, So you can't

1792
01:44:34,880 --> 01:44:37,160
Speaker 1: say there's no elk hunting because they're not everywhere there.

1793
01:44:37,200 --> 01:44:40,160
Speaker 2: In some places we have numbers that are so high

1794
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:44,120
Speaker 2: that they're actually impacting other natural resources. So of course

1795
01:44:44,160 --> 01:44:44,719
Speaker 2: we're gonna.

1796
01:44:44,560 --> 01:44:47,160
Speaker 1: Hunt, so there is localized But I just with one

1797
01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:50,479
Speaker 1: thing I worry about with mieldeer is that we've drawn

1798
01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:56,320
Speaker 1: the boxes so very very small where we're like one

1799
01:44:56,439 --> 01:44:59,479
Speaker 1: side of the river we're trying to reduce harvest. This

1800
01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:02,880
Speaker 1: is here, there's in this state one side of the

1801
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:06,800
Speaker 1: river we're trying to encourage a reduction in harvest. The

1802
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:11,200
Speaker 1: other side of the river we're killing dose. And when

1803
01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:18,320
Speaker 1: you're on that river. What do you see. It's just

1804
01:45:18,479 --> 01:45:21,680
Speaker 1: like we've gotten I feel like we've shrunk some of

1805
01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:24,760
Speaker 1: the the the management stuff is kind of like, well,

1806
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:29,720
Speaker 1: that guy's got problems with his field and and we're

1807
01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:30,840
Speaker 1: not letting them.

1808
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:36,960
Speaker 2: Spread. I don't know. I'm worried. Yeah, I don't sit around.

1809
01:45:37,120 --> 01:45:37,760
Speaker 2: I'm not working.

1810
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:39,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that there's a brilliant future for

1811
01:45:40,040 --> 01:45:42,600
Speaker 1: whitetail hunting. There's a brilliant future for elk hunting. I

1812
01:45:42,640 --> 01:45:44,760
Speaker 1: don't think there's a brilliant future for mialdeer hunting.

1813
01:45:45,080 --> 01:45:47,519
Speaker 3: Well, I think the game agencies have a hell of

1814
01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:50,000
Speaker 3: a deal on their hand right Like it's it's we

1815
01:45:51,280 --> 01:45:55,920
Speaker 3: need to find the ability for people to go out

1816
01:45:55,920 --> 01:46:00,559
Speaker 3: and have the opportunity and promote the opportunity because that's

1817
01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:05,720
Speaker 3: what brings the dollars in. But we have to constantly

1818
01:46:05,800 --> 01:46:12,559
Speaker 3: adapt to everything, like the fragmentation of landscape, the increase

1819
01:46:12,640 --> 01:46:16,800
Speaker 3: in population in states like Montana that typically haven't seen

1820
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:24,400
Speaker 3: a big increase in population, the adaptation of very available

1821
01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:30,120
Speaker 3: new technology that increases the effected the efficacy of hunters

1822
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:32,599
Speaker 3: in the field a lot of times, and we don't

1823
01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:36,559
Speaker 3: the agencies don't adapt fast and in there in fact,

1824
01:46:37,720 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 3: that's just not how they're built. It's like we need

1825
01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:43,679
Speaker 3: to get the appropriate data together, and it's like we're

1826
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:48,439
Speaker 3: always behind, right, So it's a tough job.

1827
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tough job.

1828
01:46:50,479 --> 01:46:53,160
Speaker 3: Center. I got a secret miss mission for you. I

1829
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:55,519
Speaker 3: want when you're up in DC and you're reb and

1830
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:57,600
Speaker 3: shoulders with other senators, I just want you to like

1831
01:46:57,760 --> 01:47:01,240
Speaker 3: casually drop and just be like, oh yeah, A bunch

1832
01:47:01,280 --> 01:47:05,120
Speaker 3: of my constituents were calling me, uh, just talking about

1833
01:47:05,200 --> 01:47:08,880
Speaker 3: how how bad the mule deier population is and just

1834
01:47:08,920 --> 01:47:13,240
Speaker 3: see what what the response is. Like you guys ever

1835
01:47:13,320 --> 01:47:16,240
Speaker 3: had those types of day all the mule deer hunters

1836
01:47:16,400 --> 01:47:17,320
Speaker 3: call in right in.

1837
01:47:18,080 --> 01:47:18,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1838
01:47:18,360 --> 01:47:19,880
Speaker 1: One thing we can all agree on is that the

1839
01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:21,160
Speaker 1: milier hunters.

1840
01:47:21,920 --> 01:47:22,680
Speaker 3: What a pain in the air.

1841
01:47:22,880 --> 01:47:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I think too.

1842
01:47:25,080 --> 01:47:27,280
Speaker 4: It's like, I know, there's a lot of people in

1843
01:47:27,360 --> 01:47:29,560
Speaker 4: Montana that are very, very concerned about the state of

1844
01:47:29,600 --> 01:47:34,960
Speaker 4: our muald deer herd and would welcome reduction and opportunity

1845
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:35,920
Speaker 4: or at least like a.

1846
01:47:38,560 --> 01:47:42,160
Speaker 1: You know, more of a man, more of a managed

1847
01:47:42,200 --> 01:47:44,280
Speaker 1: to pros. I'm sure it's on there. I'm sure it's

1848
01:47:44,320 --> 01:47:45,599
Speaker 1: on the horizon, but there's.

1849
01:47:45,479 --> 01:47:47,559
Speaker 4: A lot of people out there who are just kick

1850
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:50,560
Speaker 4: and scream at the first sort of shrinking.

1851
01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:53,080
Speaker 2: Of the opportunity pool. You know, it's it's painful.

1852
01:47:53,080 --> 01:47:57,280
Speaker 4: You got to communicate the communicating the fellow hunters, the

1853
01:47:57,400 --> 01:47:58,880
Speaker 4: need for that sort of step.

1854
01:47:59,200 --> 01:48:03,760
Speaker 3: If I could see looking across the board, and you're right,

1855
01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:06,280
Speaker 3: we get to drop in and see a bunch of

1856
01:48:06,320 --> 01:48:09,280
Speaker 3: different management strategies. But like you look at like this,

1857
01:48:09,600 --> 01:48:12,799
Speaker 3: the length of the center fire rifle season in Oregon

1858
01:48:13,280 --> 01:48:17,360
Speaker 3: where there's lots of big bulls and big mule there,

1859
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:19,960
Speaker 3: but they'll have like a five day center fire rifle season,

1860
01:48:20,560 --> 01:48:23,640
Speaker 3: And I see that as like a real possibility all

1861
01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:26,240
Speaker 3: across the West, where it's like, Okay, if you want

1862
01:48:26,280 --> 01:48:31,040
Speaker 3: to bring all the stuff out, the infrared and the

1863
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:37,479
Speaker 3: all the technology that's at your disposal, you gotta seventy

1864
01:48:37,520 --> 01:48:40,920
Speaker 3: two hour most of our season five day seas, right,

1865
01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:43,160
Speaker 3: you're gonna and it's gonna be this little window. But

1866
01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:45,760
Speaker 3: then if you want to have less, it's gonna be this.

1867
01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:48,280
Speaker 3: And if you want to get more primitive, it's gonna

1868
01:48:48,280 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 3: be this. So people can have the opportunity without without

1869
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:56,679
Speaker 3: the effect on the resource.

1870
01:48:56,880 --> 01:48:59,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what you're saying, I understand what you're saying,

1871
01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:04,519
Speaker 1: but there's a big difference between managing like managing for

1872
01:49:04,720 --> 01:49:08,400
Speaker 1: trophy meal deer hunting, and managing for the future of

1873
01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:11,080
Speaker 1: meal deer. If someone looks and says, what is the

1874
01:49:11,560 --> 01:49:15,080
Speaker 1: what is the long term challenges that meal deer face?

1875
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:17,840
Speaker 1: The long term challenge is that meald deer face. Isn't

1876
01:49:17,880 --> 01:49:19,960
Speaker 1: that they're all getting shot, no it.

1877
01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:23,040
Speaker 3: I'd put it at habitat habitat fragmentation.

1878
01:49:23,240 --> 01:49:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, habitat fragmentation when I brought up, and I know

1879
01:49:27,800 --> 01:49:30,400
Speaker 1: I introduced the idea of it, but I mean, just

1880
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:35,000
Speaker 1: like with my kids, I would never even a deer.

1881
01:49:35,280 --> 01:49:38,200
Speaker 1: If a dear friend of mine was had his kids

1882
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:40,040
Speaker 1: shooting miald your does, I'm not gonna say a word

1883
01:49:40,120 --> 01:49:41,720
Speaker 1: to them, like at all.

1884
01:49:42,240 --> 01:49:43,639
Speaker 2: I'm not going to think of negative thought.

1885
01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:46,000
Speaker 1: But I'm just what I meant by that was just

1886
01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:48,160
Speaker 1: as a way of sort of giving my kids a

1887
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:50,640
Speaker 1: heads up about something. I'm like, you know what, you

1888
01:49:50,680 --> 01:49:52,800
Speaker 1: guys shoot all the white tailed That's not true because

1889
01:49:52,800 --> 01:49:54,760
Speaker 1: I complain when they shoot me white tail does. But

1890
01:49:55,439 --> 01:49:56,320
Speaker 1: then I got to deal with them.

1891
01:49:56,479 --> 01:49:58,479
Speaker 2: But you guys get all the white tail dos you want.

1892
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:02,000
Speaker 2: But we're just we're not shooting Milder does go shoot

1893
01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:02,639
Speaker 2: the white tail dos.

1894
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:05,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, as we I'm not arguing with

1895
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:08,160
Speaker 3: you here, but just as the example, it's like there's

1896
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:12,479
Speaker 3: it's like just that stacking up of effects kind of

1897
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:15,519
Speaker 3: like we were talking on on Ambler and it's like, well,

1898
01:50:17,360 --> 01:50:21,439
Speaker 3: we're not going to regulate unfortunately, like the fragmentation of

1899
01:50:21,520 --> 01:50:23,360
Speaker 3: a big family ranch that wants to break it up.

1900
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:25,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is a bummer.

1901
01:50:25,760 --> 01:50:28,080
Speaker 3: We can try through folks like TPL who do a

1902
01:50:28,160 --> 01:50:29,479
Speaker 3: fantastic job, but.

1903
01:50:29,640 --> 01:50:32,320
Speaker 1: It's not gonna become a government position where some agency

1904
01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:33,760
Speaker 1: comes in and says, no, you got to keep it

1905
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:34,879
Speaker 1: for the rest of your lives.

1906
01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:39,280
Speaker 2: Right right, exactly. Well, and you know what happened with

1907
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:43,240
Speaker 2: the sage grouse. We're just seeing to spendy years down

1908
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:48,120
Speaker 2: the road. It's the same habitat challenges. I hope I'm

1909
01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:50,040
Speaker 2: wrong about Milder. It's hard to picture that I'm wrong.

1910
01:50:52,960 --> 01:50:59,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, the are like uniquely American species is like that's

1911
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:03,839
Speaker 3: where we need some like American first americanism, right, sage grouse,

1912
01:51:04,080 --> 01:51:07,880
Speaker 3: prairie chickens, antelope, mountain goats.

1913
01:51:08,240 --> 01:51:10,040
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, real America.

1914
01:51:10,120 --> 01:51:12,200
Speaker 3: So they don't I don't have they don't have friends

1915
01:51:12,240 --> 01:51:15,560
Speaker 3: on other continents, right, like we can need some some

1916
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:17,559
Speaker 3: popularity contests around those things.

1917
01:51:18,360 --> 01:51:18,559
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1918
01:51:19,840 --> 01:51:23,519
Speaker 1: Uh, Senator Martin hin answer coming on and talking to us.

1919
01:51:23,560 --> 01:51:25,120
Speaker 2: Man, it's been a long time, and I'm glad I

1920
01:51:25,200 --> 01:51:27,280
Speaker 2: did this. I think last time we did this was

1921
01:51:27,320 --> 01:51:30,280
Speaker 2: probably twenty fifteen or something, was it right? Yeh? Did

1922
01:51:30,320 --> 01:51:32,320
Speaker 2: we record in your office? In my office? Yeah?

1923
01:51:33,040 --> 01:51:35,639
Speaker 3: Okay, are you gonna ask him the big question?

1924
01:51:36,080 --> 01:51:38,600
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. You mean like,

1925
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:39,920
Speaker 2: was he gonna do it his life? Yeah?

1926
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:40,360
Speaker 3: Exactly.

1927
01:51:40,520 --> 01:51:42,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what happens with what you got?

1928
01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 2: Term limits?

1929
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:44,400
Speaker 1: So what goes on in New Mexico? What are you

1930
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:44,720
Speaker 1: gonna do?

1931
01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:47,840
Speaker 2: Uh? There are no term limits. I'm you know, what

1932
01:51:48,280 --> 01:51:51,960
Speaker 2: I have said is I'm not running for governor right now.

1933
01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:54,360
Speaker 2: I'm focused on getting the country through a couple of

1934
01:51:54,400 --> 01:51:58,719
Speaker 2: hard years and then we'll go from there. Not running

1935
01:51:58,720 --> 01:51:59,680
Speaker 2: for governor. That's right.

1936
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:02,679
Speaker 1: That we had a dude on there day that's running

1937
01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:03,479
Speaker 1: for governor of Iowa.

1938
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:07,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he's great. He's a hunter. I've known him

1939
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:07,639
Speaker 2: for a long time.

1940
01:52:07,840 --> 01:52:14,559
Speaker 1: He killed Yeah, two nine, I'd be happy to go along.

1941
01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1942
01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:18,240
Speaker 1: No, he's say, you're not running for governor?

1943
01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:20,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a big There was a big back

1944
01:52:20,680 --> 01:52:23,080
Speaker 2: and forth about whether I should run for governor in

1945
01:52:23,960 --> 01:52:29,559
Speaker 2: about a year ago, and made a decision especially I think, uh,

1946
01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:32,519
Speaker 2: you know, I'm ranking member on Energy and Natural Resources now,

1947
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:35,759
Speaker 2: and so I get a lot of influence on potentially

1948
01:52:35,840 --> 01:52:38,800
Speaker 2: what happens there. We're obviously in the minority, which is

1949
01:52:38,880 --> 01:52:41,160
Speaker 2: not a lot of fun, but you know, I could

1950
01:52:41,280 --> 01:52:42,920
Speaker 2: I could see a path where we're back in the

1951
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:46,280
Speaker 2: majority and in a little over a year, so we'll

1952
01:52:46,280 --> 01:52:46,920
Speaker 2: see what happens.

1953
01:52:47,520 --> 01:52:49,680
Speaker 1: Is it is it. I'm not talking about you, but

1954
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:52,519
Speaker 1: I understanding. Like if you look at the in political history, yea,

1955
01:52:53,320 --> 01:52:57,240
Speaker 1: do people there's sort of a hierarchy of influence, right,

1956
01:52:57,479 --> 01:53:01,479
Speaker 1: Like like you know, the president, if you're a you

1957
01:53:01,560 --> 01:53:05,160
Speaker 1: don't say I'm I'm stepping aside from being the president

1958
01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:09,160
Speaker 1: to be the governor, right, It's just because you know,

1959
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:13,559
Speaker 1: you generally want highest level of influence just human nature.

1960
01:53:14,520 --> 01:53:18,760
Speaker 1: Are there cases where someone has left their office as

1961
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:23,280
Speaker 1: a senator in order to in order to assume a

1962
01:53:23,400 --> 01:53:25,439
Speaker 1: role as a governor and not see their term through.

1963
01:53:26,400 --> 01:53:28,800
Speaker 2: I don't know about not see their term through, but

1964
01:53:29,080 --> 01:53:31,560
Speaker 2: like it's a tough place to be right now, and

1965
01:53:31,680 --> 01:53:35,040
Speaker 2: so I think you're you're seeing more House members leave

1966
01:53:35,240 --> 01:53:40,000
Speaker 2: to to run for state offices. Yeah, I mean, and

1967
01:53:40,120 --> 01:53:42,200
Speaker 2: I think I would. I'd be very surprised if you

1968
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,040
Speaker 2: don't see a lot of retirements in the House of Representatives,

1969
01:53:45,080 --> 01:53:48,280
Speaker 2: in particular in the in the coming weeks as people

1970
01:53:48,360 --> 01:53:50,360
Speaker 2: go home and spend the holidays with their families.

1971
01:53:51,160 --> 01:53:56,000
Speaker 1: Will Yeah, because well, I was just gonna ask about her.

1972
01:53:56,120 --> 01:53:58,600
Speaker 1: But was there a is it rumored that she was just.

1973
01:53:58,640 --> 01:54:01,519
Speaker 2: Like Michael Bennett, who's a you know, my colleague from Colorado.

1974
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:05,920
Speaker 2: He's he's running for governor in Colorado and he's currently

1975
01:54:06,080 --> 01:54:08,760
Speaker 2: he's currently the US Center, but he's seeing his term through.

1976
01:54:09,439 --> 01:54:11,400
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I don't know what cycle he's on.

1977
01:54:13,000 --> 01:54:16,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, Man, I all the time think I don't I'll

1978
01:54:16,400 --> 01:54:18,280
Speaker 1: never do it, Like I've told my wife, I'll never

1979
01:54:18,360 --> 01:54:18,519
Speaker 1: do it.

1980
01:54:18,600 --> 01:54:21,439
Speaker 2: But I do think it'd be interesting to go into politics. Man.

1981
01:54:21,880 --> 01:54:24,400
Speaker 2: But God, probably hate it. You've had that, We've had

1982
01:54:24,439 --> 01:54:25,520
Speaker 2: that conversation.

1983
01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:26,960
Speaker 1: But always think about it. Wouldn't that be the worst

1984
01:54:27,000 --> 01:54:27,519
Speaker 1: thing in the world.

1985
01:54:28,080 --> 01:54:29,879
Speaker 2: He tried to talk to me in and running for president.

1986
01:54:30,320 --> 01:54:31,160
Speaker 4: You know what, you know what.

1987
01:54:33,040 --> 01:54:33,600
Speaker 2: You brought it up.

1988
01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:35,480
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna bring it up. Do you want me

1989
01:54:35,480 --> 01:54:37,760
Speaker 1: to talk about what you were asking when we talk

1990
01:54:37,760 --> 01:54:39,240
Speaker 1: about what happened that day? Or should we just not

1991
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:40,720
Speaker 1: just leave it privately between us.

1992
01:54:40,920 --> 01:54:45,560
Speaker 2: Well, I just think, uh, I think it's great that

1993
01:54:45,720 --> 01:54:50,400
Speaker 2: there are people. I think if you, if you are

1994
01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:52,760
Speaker 2: going to run for president one, you need to be

1995
01:54:53,640 --> 01:54:58,920
Speaker 2: all in, all in, all in, and it tends to

1996
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:02,760
Speaker 2: be able to weather those campaigns. It also helps just

1997
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:06,960
Speaker 2: to be a little full of yourself. And I know

1998
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:11,080
Speaker 2: I'm in this because I want to fight for my

1999
01:55:11,200 --> 01:55:13,920
Speaker 2: constituents who need it, and I want to stand up

2000
01:55:13,960 --> 01:55:17,360
Speaker 2: for things like public land and wildlife that don't get

2001
01:55:17,480 --> 01:55:18,000
Speaker 2: enough attention.

2002
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:21,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was bringing up with you. You brought it up.

2003
01:55:21,840 --> 01:55:26,200
Speaker 1: I was bringing up with you launching a primary challenge, yep.

2004
01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:28,640
Speaker 1: And I remember that when I brought up to you

2005
01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:31,400
Speaker 1: what would happen? Yeah, I was kind of it was

2006
01:55:31,800 --> 01:55:34,440
Speaker 1: almost like a civics question, right, But I was like,

2007
01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:38,879
Speaker 1: why don't you do a primary challenge? And I remember

2008
01:55:38,920 --> 01:55:40,280
Speaker 1: that you didn't even get me an answer.

2009
01:55:40,840 --> 01:55:45,920
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the the answer is like, structurally it

2010
01:55:46,120 --> 01:55:49,960
Speaker 2: is it that would almost be a fool's errand to

2011
01:55:50,120 --> 01:55:54,480
Speaker 2: run against the sitting president, even with the the you know,

2012
01:55:55,160 --> 01:55:58,280
Speaker 2: the weaknesses that we can now see in that city.

2013
01:55:59,320 --> 01:56:01,320
Speaker 2: And like one, first off, I was one of the

2014
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:04,360
Speaker 2: people who called for jas Joe Biden to step aside,

2015
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 2: that said, I respect him deeply. He is somebody that

2016
01:56:08,320 --> 01:56:10,560
Speaker 2: I have a like. This is a guy who would

2017
01:56:10,680 --> 01:56:14,560
Speaker 2: will call up my kids out of the blue and

2018
01:56:14,720 --> 01:56:18,760
Speaker 2: be just like, hey, how are you doing, like randomly,

2019
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:21,360
Speaker 2: honestly because he met him when he swore me in

2020
01:56:21,440 --> 01:56:25,000
Speaker 2: as a senator, that said, I could see the writing

2021
01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:27,680
Speaker 2: on the wall. And you know, that's why I was

2022
01:56:27,760 --> 01:56:29,600
Speaker 2: one of the people who stood up and said we

2023
01:56:29,720 --> 01:56:32,360
Speaker 2: need to make a change here. None of it was ideal.

2024
01:56:32,640 --> 01:56:35,760
Speaker 2: He would have been an incredible one term president and

2025
01:56:36,320 --> 01:56:41,120
Speaker 2: instead now we have another president who is showing signs

2026
01:56:41,160 --> 01:56:47,920
Speaker 2: of ag and I'm not into it, for I don't

2027
01:56:47,960 --> 01:56:52,040
Speaker 2: need the stature. And I've watched presidents have to make

2028
01:56:52,360 --> 01:56:56,600
Speaker 2: very difficult life or death decisions and I'm not sure

2029
01:56:56,680 --> 01:57:00,680
Speaker 2: that's my calling. So well, I always, no matter what

2030
01:57:00,840 --> 01:57:04,960
Speaker 2: I'm doing, be focused on conservation, and I'll work with

2031
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:07,960
Speaker 2: anybody who from the other side or my side, or

2032
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:10,600
Speaker 2: what have you, to to make some progress there. Because

2033
01:57:10,680 --> 01:57:14,280
Speaker 2: the natural world is kind of what keeps me going

2034
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:17,000
Speaker 2: like I go home to New Mexico, or I'll go

2035
01:57:17,160 --> 01:57:20,680
Speaker 2: someplace with someone like yourself and see what's left of

2036
01:57:20,760 --> 01:57:23,960
Speaker 2: the big natural world and that recharges my batteries and

2037
01:57:24,040 --> 01:57:25,760
Speaker 2: then I can go back and fight. Yeah.

2038
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:28,800
Speaker 1: I just like to see them hunters in the I

2039
01:57:28,960 --> 01:57:31,120
Speaker 1: like to see hunters and fishermen in the politics.

2040
01:57:31,200 --> 01:57:32,320
Speaker 2: Man. Yeah, I know.

2041
01:57:32,440 --> 01:57:35,160
Speaker 3: I mean, even though you didn't kill a bull this year,

2042
01:57:35,200 --> 01:57:36,400
Speaker 3: I feel like it's still indorse.

2043
01:57:36,440 --> 01:57:43,200
Speaker 2: You know, don't get me started. You could probably you

2044
01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:46,560
Speaker 2: could chase in whitetails back east to put some to

2045
01:57:46,640 --> 01:57:48,080
Speaker 2: put some protein in my freezer.

2046
01:57:48,280 --> 01:57:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess, and it would be I got entled

2047
01:57:52,440 --> 01:57:54,840
Speaker 1: the first bow hunting. I don't know, you don't want to.

2048
01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:56,880
Speaker 1: I know you're not comfortable with it, but I don't

2049
01:57:56,960 --> 01:57:59,320
Speaker 1: know that we've had an archery. We haven't had a

2050
01:57:59,400 --> 01:58:02,640
Speaker 1: bow hunter president yet, probably not in a while.

2051
01:58:03,200 --> 01:58:05,120
Speaker 3: God, that'd be some bad pr What do you do

2052
01:58:05,240 --> 01:58:07,560
Speaker 3: with all those secret service and stuff?

2053
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:12,440
Speaker 2: And yeah, like Paul Ryan's bow Hunter that was his

2054
01:58:12,520 --> 01:58:15,280
Speaker 2: code name, Paul. Paul and I used to you know,

2055
01:58:15,640 --> 01:58:19,400
Speaker 2: we were in the house. We both would sleep in

2056
01:58:19,440 --> 01:58:23,040
Speaker 2: our offices, and you know, I'd see him every morning

2057
01:58:23,120 --> 01:58:25,640
Speaker 2: in the in the gym and brush teeth next to

2058
01:58:25,720 --> 01:58:29,400
Speaker 2: him and we would talk bo honey. Oh really yeah,

2059
01:58:29,560 --> 01:58:32,480
Speaker 2: it's a good thing to talk about with people. All right.

2060
01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:35,840
Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for coming on man my pleasure. Yeah,

2061
01:58:36,120 --> 01:58:36,800
Speaker 1: keep up the fight.

2062
01:58:37,480 --> 01:58:39,000
Speaker 2: Thank you you too.

2063
01:58:39,400 --> 01:58:43,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, i'd like you, uh like to hear you

2064
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:46,400
Speaker 1: representing the perspective of people that love wild places.

2065
01:58:46,440 --> 01:58:47,760
Speaker 2: So thank you very much. Public