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Speaker 1: Pushkin. I initially reached out to you because I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize when Bob Weir passed away that you were a fan.

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Speaker 1: And I had only started getting into The Dead since

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Speaker 1: about 2020 when it clicked for me. The great thing

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Speaker 1: about music is there's always these great catalogs just kind

6
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Speaker 1: of waiting to be found. And Sonic Youth similarly in

7
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Speaker 1: the last five years clicked for me. Not that I

8
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Speaker 1: didn't like Sonic Youth before, but I think I was

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Speaker 1: a little scared of you guys because, you know, it

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Speaker 1: just seemed very intimidating as a, you know, I was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't, there's already so much that felt like so

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Speaker 1: much cooler than me as a kid. And then it

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Speaker 1: was like, Sonic, he's another level beyond that.

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Speaker 2: You know, we were, we were like fun loving goofballs,

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Speaker 2: you know, but for some reason, especially early in our career,

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Speaker 2: we had this weird reputation where people were a little

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Speaker 2: afraid of us for some reason. They thought, because the

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Speaker 2: music was ferocious that we were going to be ferocious

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Speaker 2: as people as well, which was not the case at all,

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Speaker 2: you know?

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Speaker 1: And now that I know you guys are familiar, more

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Speaker 1: familiar with you guys, it's not that way, but you

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Speaker 1: guys were in a time when purity mattered a lot

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Speaker 1: and authenticity, you guys were like the gold standard. It

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, you couldn't get better. You pegged

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Speaker 1: everything against, you know, Sonic Youth. And so it was

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Speaker 1: kind of like, oh man, I don't, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I'm cool enough, you know?

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Speaker 2: So you never saw us play?

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Speaker 1: You know, I probably did at a festival at some,

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Speaker 1: at some point. Maybe so. Maybe so. I'm sure I

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Speaker 1: did a bunch of L.A.

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Speaker 2: Festivals for one thing. Obviously, we played a lot of festivals. But,

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Speaker 2: you know, since Kim was based in or Kim grew

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Speaker 2: up in L.A., we spent a lot of time in L.A. And,

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Speaker 2: you know, our record company was in L.A. And we

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Speaker 2: played a lot out there, which was really cool for

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Speaker 2: me to be able to spend a lot of time

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Speaker 2: in L.A. because I really love it.

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Speaker 1: Really?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we played at like Al's Bar. And was there

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Speaker 2: a place called Club Lingerie?

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Speaker 1: I think that was in LA. I was too young

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Speaker 1: for that, but I've heard of Club Lingerie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we played those places. And we played the Roxy

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Speaker 2: and stuff like that as well at some points.

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Speaker 1: Did you guys... Yeah, it's funny, and I guess it's

48
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Speaker 1: the Kim connection, but it does feel like there's a

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Speaker 1: bit of... Between SST and Geffen, you just feel like

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Speaker 1: there's a strong... And then Death Valley 69. It feels

51
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Speaker 1: like there's a West Coast streak that runs through... Sonic Youth. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. And we were totally

53
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Speaker 2: fascinated with that, especially that period of the Beach Boys

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Speaker 2: on the one hand and Peace and Love and Manson

55
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Speaker 2: on the other hand. That's the period I was talking about, actually.

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Speaker 2: When that song came out, it was one of the

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Speaker 2: first songs that a lot of people heard. We'd be

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Speaker 2: going around and people would imagine that they were going

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Speaker 2: to meet a bunch of Mansonites or something like that,

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Speaker 2: and which couldn't have been further from the truth or

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Speaker 2: further from the kind of the subject matter of the

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Speaker 2: song in a way. That was funny. People, people had

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Speaker 2: a certain impression of us because the music was ferocious.

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Speaker 2: You know, I used to say that we were friends

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Speaker 2: with a lot of bands in New York in the

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Speaker 2: early days that were living really edgy lifestyles, like kind

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Speaker 2: of ferocious lifestyles, you know, deep into hard drugs and

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Speaker 2: stuff like that. And then they'd get on stage and

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Speaker 2: the music was. less ferocious than their lifestyles. And with us,

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Speaker 2: it was kind of the reverse. Offstage, you know, we

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Speaker 2: wanted to live in nice places and have refrigerators with

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Speaker 2: food in them or whatever it was, eventually having kids

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Speaker 2: and stuff. But we wanted the onstage to be where

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Speaker 2: the ferocity lived, you know?

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Speaker 1: Was there a catharsis to it, you think?

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Speaker 2: There's always a catharsis to be playing music. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's the case all the time. And to play music

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Speaker 2: that could be as wild and free as some of

79
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Speaker 2: our music was super cathartic, you know, in a way.

80
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Speaker 2: But that was something that was definitely coming out of,

81
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Speaker 2: I mean, not just the New York scene, but we

82
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Speaker 2: were really feeling that from a lot of the things

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Speaker 2: that were happening here back at that point in time,

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Speaker 2: like what bands like Teenage Jesus or DNA were doing

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Speaker 2: or Glenn Branca and Reese Chatham. I mean, this was

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Speaker 2: really music that wanted to move you in one way

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Speaker 2: or the other, like really in that cathartic sense, you know. And, and,

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Speaker 2: you know, the stuff that was going on in LA too,

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Speaker 2: Black Flag and Minuteman. And, you know, it was just like,

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Speaker 2: they didn't want you to just stand there as a,

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Speaker 2: as a passive observer. They wanted you to be really involved. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What, I mean, given that there was so much going

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Speaker 1: on around New York, it always seems to me would

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Speaker 1: have made more sense to maybe sign with like a

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Speaker 1: Z Records or 99 or something, you know, versus. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We would have loved to have been on 99. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the first two records were on Glenn Branca's label, which

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Speaker 2: was a brand new indie label at a time when

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Speaker 2: there really weren't like indie labels all over the place,

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Speaker 2: you know, so it was kind of a radical move

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Speaker 2: that he did that. So our first, our first bunch

102
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Speaker 2: of records were on New York labels, but we were

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Speaker 2: in love with SST records. We were in love with

104
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Speaker 2: everything they did. And we just thought they were like

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Speaker 2: the pinnacle of, of a record label at that point

106
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Speaker 2: in time, all the bands we loved were on SST

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Speaker 2: saccharine trust and meat puppets and, you know, you name it. And, uh,

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Speaker 2: so when we had the chance to, to move to them,

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Speaker 2: we really just kind of jumped at it.

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Speaker 1: Signing to SST, did it, did you get to know

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Speaker 1: everyone over there pretty well or was it like a

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Speaker 1: family or a group?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, to a, to a, to a large degree.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we certainly got to know, uh, Greg Ginn

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Speaker 2: and Henry Rollins and all those guys. And, and we

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Speaker 2: were already, well, probably right around the same time we

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Speaker 2: signed with them. We were, we got to be really

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Speaker 2: good friends with Mike Watt in particular and, and the

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Speaker 2: Minutemen guys. And, And the Meat Puppets, you know, we

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Speaker 2: did lots of shows with all those bands. It felt

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Speaker 2: really cool to be a part of that. You know,

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Speaker 2: and Petty Bone, you know, Raymond Petty Bone was sort

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Speaker 2: of part of that crew at that point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He became a good friend. And then, you know, things

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Speaker 2: changed and we ended up on another California label with Geffen,

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Speaker 2: which was also really cool.

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Speaker 1: Just to stick on SST for a second, you were

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Speaker 1: there when the Minutemen kind of changed into Firehose.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. We were playing a warehouse gig in L.A. with

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Speaker 2: the Swans the night that D. Boone died in Arizona

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Speaker 2: or New Mexico, wherever it was. And I was actually

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Speaker 2: playing his amp on that gig the night that he died.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think he died later in the evening

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Speaker 2: than our show was. But that was pretty devastating. And

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Speaker 2: we were really close to Mike in particular. in that period.

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Speaker 2: And especially once that happened, then we were, then we

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Speaker 2: got really close to Mike. And actually, you know, when,

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Speaker 2: when that happened, Mike kind of shut down for a

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Speaker 2: period of time. He wasn't doing anything. He wasn't playing music.

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Speaker 2: And he came out to New York when we were

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Speaker 2: recording the record Evol, like 1985, just not that long

143
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Speaker 2: after Dee had died, I guess. We had this one song, actually,

144
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Speaker 2: this song called In the Kingdom that, that I sang that,

145
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Speaker 2: was kind of a Stooges-esque riff, and we never really

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Speaker 2: finished it as a song. It was always going to

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Speaker 2: be this thing. I was going to do this kind

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Speaker 2: of spoken word thing over. And Mike was in the

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Speaker 2: studio when we were getting ready to record it, and

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Speaker 2: we asked him to play on it. And he played

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Speaker 2: the bass on that song and this other song. We

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Speaker 2: did a cover of Kim Fowley's song called Bubblegum. And

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Speaker 2: I think those were the first two. That's kind of

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Speaker 2: an extra track from that period. And those two were

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Speaker 2: the first things that Mike did in music again since

156
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Speaker 2: D Boone died. And then shortly after that, Ed from Ohio,

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Speaker 2: as he's known, called Mike up and said, hey, let's play,

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Speaker 2: and Firehose started.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I always felt like we had a hand in

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Speaker 2: pulling Mike out of his doldrums of D Boone's death.

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Speaker 1: You kind of kept a relationship with Pettibone. Did you

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Speaker 1: keep a relationship with Greg as well?

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Speaker 2: No, not really. I mean, I think we had a

167
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Speaker 2: falling out when we left the label, and I don't

168
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Speaker 2: think he was very happy about the situation. And it

169
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Speaker 2: was kind of an awkward moment, and we didn't really

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Speaker 2: keep up much after that.

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Speaker 1: But that didn't transfer to Pettibone at all, like the

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Speaker 1: awkwardness of that?

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Speaker 2: No, not at all. We were relating to Raymond on

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Speaker 2: a completely different level. And at that point, he was...

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Speaker 2: starting to be more in the art world than the

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Speaker 2: music world. And, you know, Kim and I trained as artists,

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Speaker 2: and we all had a real affinity for his art

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Speaker 2: in particular, you know. And he lives nearby here. We

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Speaker 2: see each other every once in a while.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing, man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we actually, my wife Leah and I acted in

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Speaker 2: his most recent movie, which was a, you know, he

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Speaker 2: made all these movies in the late 80s, early 90s.

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Speaker 2: He made a whole bunch of, like, feature-length movies that

185
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Speaker 2: were really, he did one about the weatherman. that I

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Speaker 2: think Kim and Thurston are in, he did a whole

187
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Speaker 2: bunch of movies. And he started making some again. And

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Speaker 2: his most recent movie was about the Beatles. I played Ringo.

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Speaker 2: And Leah played Linda Eastman. And this artist, Marcel Zama,

190
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Speaker 2: played Paul. And this costume designer played George. And this

191
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Speaker 2: couple from England, I think, played John and Yoko. And

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Speaker 2: it was just a It was kind of, his movies

193
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Speaker 2: are kind of like his drawings, you know, like a

194
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Speaker 2: bunch of people standing in one position and saying stuff,

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Speaker 2: you know, just kind of like the drawings are. So

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Speaker 2: they're very, very weird movies. Very cool.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like it might be better than the, I think

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Speaker 1: they're putting out like four Beatles biopics soon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're coming.

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Speaker 1: They're coming. I think I'd rather see you as Ringo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

201
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Speaker 1: Did you, the move to Geffen, did you guys get

202
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Speaker 1: to know Geffen before?

203
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Speaker 2: We had really one meeting with him when we were

204
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Speaker 2: getting ready to sign with a major. I guess it

205
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Speaker 2: was in the wake of like REM signing and the

206
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Speaker 2: replacement signings. or who's could do it was like all

207
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Speaker 2: the majors started to get interested all of a sudden

208
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Speaker 2: you know so we met with with david geffen we

209
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Speaker 2: met with uh ahmed erdogan for atlantic records we met

210
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Speaker 2: with herb albert and and the people at a and

211
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Speaker 2: m but we met with like all of these like

212
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Speaker 2: classic record men you know from from the older generation. And,

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Speaker 2: and like, that was the coolest thing to us. Like

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Speaker 2: we met Herb Albert in the studio in, uh, in

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Speaker 2: the A & M studios in LA and, you know,

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Speaker 2: where like all these great records were made and we're

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Speaker 2: walking through the studios with him and we come around

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Speaker 2: the corner and there's his trumpet, like sitting on a pedestal.

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Speaker 2: And he says, Oh yeah, that's my trumpet. And like,

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Speaker 2: he picked it up and he played something for us,

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Speaker 2: which was like totally surreal. We met Ahmed Erdogan at

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Speaker 2: a kind of a swanky Chinese restaurant in Uptown in

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Speaker 2: New York here. And the coolest thing about all these

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Speaker 2: meetings was these guys told us all these insane stories,

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Speaker 2: like stories about being in the studio with the Stones,

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Speaker 2: like with big bowls of Coke on the mixing desk

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Speaker 2: and all this like debauchery going on. Like Geffen told

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Speaker 2: us stories about having to smuggle David Crosby pot across

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Speaker 2: the country because he was supposed to play Madison Square

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Speaker 2: Garden that night with Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young and

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Speaker 2: his pot delivery didn't make it. And he was like

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Speaker 2: refusing to go on. And Geffen's like, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to carry pot on the plane, you know, and all

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Speaker 2: this kind of stuff. And, uh, and eventually he did,

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Speaker 2: but we just got so many cool stories from like,

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Speaker 2: we were deep into that, the moments of that era

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Speaker 2: and all these bands that had, you know, like the

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Speaker 2: beach boys working on those classic records or the carpenters

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Speaker 2: or whatever. And so to meet with all these people,

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Speaker 2: like we would, we almost didn't care if we got

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Speaker 2: signed or not. We were just like, this is amazing.

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Speaker 2: We get to like suck the stories out of all

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Speaker 2: these uh people which was really really interesting and then

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Speaker 2: we chose geffen because they really offered us the best

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Speaker 2: deal in terms of full creative control no um no

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Speaker 2: oversight like didn't have to present demos or or any

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Speaker 2: of that stuff and it worked really well for us

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Speaker 2: with them for for a pretty good amount of time

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Speaker 2: yeah yeah i mean we're still it doesn't it's not

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Speaker 2: called geffen anymore it's called universal but we're still on

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Speaker 2: that path with with you know the records we made

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Speaker 2: with them we're still putting out stuff through universal But yeah, they,

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Speaker 2: they were good. And then, you know, on, on our backs,

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Speaker 2: they signed Nirvana. So at that point we could do

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Speaker 2: no wrong within their eyes. You know, it was like, boy,

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Speaker 2: we brought them like the biggest cash cow of, of the,

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Speaker 2: of the era.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, oh, and that's right. And you

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Speaker 1: guys shared management with Nirvana too, right? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They, they followed us. They, they, they were asking us

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Speaker 2: who should be their management. And we liked our, our, uh, Silt,

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Speaker 2: John Silva out in LA. And so they, They signed

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Speaker 2: with Silva. They signed with Geffen. They used our merch people.

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Speaker 2: They were kind of taking their lead from what we

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Speaker 2: were doing, which we felt was a real compliment.

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Speaker 1: It is an amazing thing about you guys because much

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Speaker 1: for a group of people who seem to be as

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Speaker 1: uncompromising about their vision as you guys were, you guys

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Speaker 1: seemed to be fairly happy to bring people along and

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Speaker 1: bring people around.

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Speaker 2: And it was definitely our trip completely. You know, as

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Speaker 2: soon as we could bring opening bands along, we just

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Speaker 2: brought all the people we wanted to hear every night.

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Speaker 2: And that was a main component of Sonic Youth was

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Speaker 2: that kind of inclusivity. We had the chance to do

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Speaker 2: this museum show towards the end of our career, like

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Speaker 2: in 2008 and 2009. We did this massive show that

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Speaker 2: took over museums in five different countries in Europe. And

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Speaker 2: it was part stuff we had done, like they exhibited

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Speaker 2: a bunch of our guitars and, you know, artwork that

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Speaker 2: individual members made. But we also had like Allen Ginsberg

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Speaker 2: photographs and the Wolfeyes guys drawings and crazy paintings. And

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Speaker 2: there were like 50 or 60 different people. Like at

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Speaker 2: that point, we were associated with all these artists. So

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Speaker 2: we had we had Pettibone and Mike Kelly and Gerhard

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Speaker 2: Richter paintings and it was this really amazing, massive show,

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Speaker 2: Dan Graham sculptures. And so it was kind of a

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Speaker 2: mix of like artwork from some of our indie rock

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Speaker 2: friends and then like really heavy stuff from like really,

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Speaker 2: you know, well-known artists and musicians. And our whole thing

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Speaker 2: was always like bringing more people to the party. That

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Speaker 2: was a big part of Sonic Youth, you know. We

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Speaker 2: always would rather talk about stuff we were interested in

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Speaker 2: than talk about our, our, ourselves really, you know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I read something Thurston said that like when you

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Speaker 1: guys initially signed to Geffen, people there had the idea

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Speaker 1: that maybe you guys had a, um, a dark side

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Speaker 1: of the moon and you guys like, you were, they

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Speaker 1: were kind of thinking of you as, as a, like

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Speaker 1: a sleeper pink Floyd, you know, kind of all these

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Speaker 1: crazy records and then, Oh, but they're going to, if

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Speaker 1: they get focused enough, they're going to have a dark

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Speaker 1: side of the moon. Does that ring true?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. I mean, with every record from

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Speaker 2: the very first one, there was a single that they

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Speaker 2: were like, this is the song that's going to break

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Speaker 2: you guys wide open, you know. And for a while

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Speaker 2: we kind of fell for the verbiage of it. But we,

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Speaker 2: you know, it quickly became sure even like a song

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Speaker 2: like Cool Thing or I don't know which ones they

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Speaker 2: chose from those couple of records. But, you know, it

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Speaker 2: was never going to we were too weird a band

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Speaker 2: for that to happen in the same way that it would,

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Speaker 2: for instance, that it happened for Nirvana. But, you know,

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Speaker 2: we had our own kind of dark side of the

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Speaker 2: moon in us. And, you know, I would cite certain

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Speaker 2: of our records as being in that category for us.

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Speaker 2: You know, a song like The Diamond Sea is like

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Speaker 2: a 20-minute song, 25 minutes on the 12-inch single. And

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Speaker 2: it's like, you know, we did it. We were doing

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Speaker 2: our own thing.

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Speaker 1: You know, I guess that's the thing. Like, you know,

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Speaker 1: what I've realized as I get older is how much

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Speaker 1: of success is down to marketing and being willing to

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Speaker 1: buy into or create a narrative and kind of... Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know, a certain a certain aspect of success is. But,

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Speaker 2: you know, like the kind of success that someone like

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Speaker 2: Dylan or Neil has is not down to marketing. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's down to being a true artist. And, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's fans that I could cite as being completely successful

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Speaker 2: that never, never had a gold record or any of

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. You know, I mean, in a way,

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Speaker 2: Pavement is a band like that. It's a huge, huge band.

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Speaker 2: That's not huge in the bigger scheme. They're not Bob

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Speaker 2: Seger huge or whatever, you know. But to the right people,

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Speaker 2: they're like, you know, top shelf or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Like for those manager guys, success was measured in how

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Speaker 2: much money you could make for how long you could

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Speaker 2: make it. And those were not the values that we had.

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Speaker 1: You know. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We were making music, not making money.

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Speaker 1: This moment is brought to you by Sierra Nevada's Hazy

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Speaker 1: Little Thing. Your go-to beer for good times. The tent's

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Speaker 1: in the trunk, the cooler's packed, and you're about to

346
00:17:06,896 --> 00:17:09,336
Speaker 1: lose cell service for the next few days. That can

347
00:17:09,376 --> 00:17:11,836
Speaker 1: only mean one thing. It's time for a camping trip.

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Speaker 1: Before you hit the trailhead, there's one last piece of

349
00:17:14,716 --> 00:17:16,896
Speaker 1: gear to sort out. The playlist you'll be listening to

350
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Speaker 1: around the fire. This is part three of the Sierra

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Speaker 1: Nevada Sounds of Summer series. This time we're building a

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Speaker 1: playlist worth downloading before you head off the grid, made

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Speaker 1: for pairing with a hazy little thing and good company.

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Speaker 1: Here are the songs making the cut on my next camp.

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Speaker 1: First up, I've been on a bit of a David

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Speaker 1: Crosby kick lately, so I'm going to start off with

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Speaker 1: a couple of songs from his catalog. The first is

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Speaker 1: Draft Morning. It's a beautiful song from the Byrds' 1968 album,

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Speaker 1: The Notorious Byrd Brothers. The song has the sound of

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Speaker 1: a stark, beautiful morning. Just the kind of morning you

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Speaker 1: wake up to when you're camping. Then I'd cue up

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Speaker 1: Music Is Love from Crosby's solo album, If Only I

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Speaker 1: Could Remember My Name. It's a beautiful meditation on the

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Speaker 1: nature of music and consciousness, featuring Graham Nash and Neil Young.

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Speaker 1: Of course, those are his perennial partners. And the rest

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Speaker 1: of the album features members of the Grateful Dead. It's

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Speaker 1: one of my all-time favorites. Then there's Suzanne by Leonard Cohen,

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Speaker 1: which of course is a beautiful song all on its own,

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Speaker 1: but I can never divorce it from its stunning opening

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Speaker 1: sequence to Robert Altman's McCabe and Mrs. Miller, where Warren

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Speaker 1: Beatty's riding through the Canadian wilderness on horseback. It's one

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Speaker 1: of the most beautiful sequences in all of film history.

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Speaker 1: And then to round this whole thing out, something from

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Speaker 1: just last year. Billy Martin's Planets. Billy is a phenomenal

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Speaker 1: singer-songwriter who writes some of my favorite songs. This one, Planets,

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00:18:33,216 --> 00:18:36,436
Speaker 1: happens to feel like pure wonderment, similar to the awe

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00:18:36,656 --> 00:18:40,476
Speaker 1: I experience taking in nature. A great camping playlist isn't

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Speaker 1: about hits. It's about songs that hold up next to

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Speaker 1: the sounds of crickets and a crackling fire. Download it

380
00:18:45,986 --> 00:18:48,346
Speaker 1: before you go, because out there, you get one shot

381
00:18:48,366 --> 00:18:51,066
Speaker 1: at cell service, and it's not coming back. If you've

382
00:18:51,106 --> 00:18:53,366
Speaker 1: ever reached for a cheers when your favorite song comes on,

383
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Speaker 1: you're ready to embrace the haze with Hazy Little Thing

384
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Speaker 1: from Sierra Nevada. Hazy, citrusy, smooth, juicy, but not sweet. Hoppy,

385
00:19:00,836 --> 00:19:04,116
Speaker 1: but not bitter. America's best-selling hazy IPA for a good reason.

386
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Speaker 1: Hazy Little Thing. Enjoy responsibly. How was it touring with

387
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Speaker 1: Neil and getting to know Neil? It was good.

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Speaker 2: It was amazing. He was at a high period and

389
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Speaker 2: you know, we were, he had the, the crazy rust

390
00:19:19,436 --> 00:19:23,116
Speaker 2: never sleeps, giant amplifier sets and everything. So, you know,

391
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Speaker 2: we knew all about that stuff. So it was amazing

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Speaker 2: that we were getting to see that stuff. Cause we

393
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Speaker 2: didn't see those original concerts. It was the first time

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Speaker 2: we'd ever played those kinds of hockey arenas and stuff,

395
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Speaker 2: you know, and we did three months of it with him. And, um,

396
00:19:37,466 --> 00:19:39,886
Speaker 2: it really, uh, taught us how to do that. And

397
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Speaker 2: we were kind of learning from the master because he's,

398
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Speaker 2: he's the King of making those rooms sound great, you know? And, um,

399
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Speaker 2: Same with meeting Erdogan and Geffen and all those people.

400
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Speaker 2: We were deep into all of these musicians from that

401
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Speaker 2: period and like what Neil did with Buffalo Springfield and Crosby,

402
00:19:57,506 --> 00:20:00,316
Speaker 2: Stills and Nash and his solo careers. like, we read

403
00:20:00,376 --> 00:20:02,516
Speaker 2: all the books. We were deep into, you know, everything

404
00:20:02,556 --> 00:20:05,706
Speaker 2: that happened to these cats and suddenly to be around

405
00:20:05,726 --> 00:20:07,446
Speaker 2: them and to be on one of these big tours

406
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Speaker 2: with like a full on crew. And, you know, we'd

407
00:20:09,686 --> 00:20:12,606
Speaker 2: never done tours like that with a semi truck of

408
00:20:12,666 --> 00:20:14,326
Speaker 2: gear and all, you know, all that kind of stuff.

409
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Speaker 2: And it was, it was an eye opener for us,

410
00:20:16,806 --> 00:20:19,666
Speaker 2: but it was really, The same as signing with the

411
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Speaker 2: major label where we always felt like we're really an

412
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Speaker 2: indie band that's just kind of like spies in this world.

413
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Speaker 2: It was the same thing on these big stadium tours.

414
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Speaker 2: That was not our scene. And we kind of went

415
00:20:31,316 --> 00:20:33,476
Speaker 2: through it and came out the other side of it.

416
00:20:33,596 --> 00:20:36,076
Speaker 2: And we're back kind of where we started and where

417
00:20:36,116 --> 00:20:39,126
Speaker 2: we were happier. I mean, at first when we got

418
00:20:39,206 --> 00:20:43,086
Speaker 2: on that tour, it was the first tour that Neil

419
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Speaker 2: had ever taken opening acts with him. He never had

420
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Speaker 2: opening acts before. He was a monster success. He didn't

421
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Speaker 2: need to do that. And his crew were totally not

422
00:20:55,976 --> 00:20:59,646
Speaker 2: into it. And they were not into us. They thought

423
00:20:59,686 --> 00:21:02,246
Speaker 2: we were a bunch of jokers, that we were just

424
00:21:02,346 --> 00:21:05,106
Speaker 2: making fun of the whole business and making noise and

425
00:21:05,146 --> 00:21:08,286
Speaker 2: that we didn't know how to play. And they were

426
00:21:08,326 --> 00:21:11,086
Speaker 2: really mean to us, with a few exceptions, a few

427
00:21:11,166 --> 00:21:15,616
Speaker 2: very classic exceptions. Like Neil's front of house guy, Tim Mulligan,

428
00:21:15,656 --> 00:21:18,376
Speaker 2: was always super nice to us and warm. And Neil's

429
00:21:18,616 --> 00:21:22,676
Speaker 2: guitar tech, Larry Craig, was amazing and fixed our guitars

430
00:21:22,716 --> 00:21:24,396
Speaker 2: when we broke them and all that kind of stuff.

431
00:21:24,416 --> 00:21:27,476
Speaker 2: But it took their crew a long time to realize

432
00:21:27,516 --> 00:21:29,876
Speaker 2: that what we were doing was something. And I think

433
00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:32,476
Speaker 2: even by the time we finished that tour, they were

434
00:21:32,516 --> 00:21:35,346
Speaker 2: just like, these guys are idiots and we'll never see

435
00:21:35,386 --> 00:21:39,466
Speaker 2: them again. And yet, because we were friends with Neil

436
00:21:39,906 --> 00:21:42,626
Speaker 2: and with Elliot, especially Elliot was very warm to us.

437
00:21:43,116 --> 00:21:45,296
Speaker 2: like every time Neil would come through or we'd be

438
00:21:45,316 --> 00:21:47,496
Speaker 2: in the same city and he'd be playing, we'd go

439
00:21:47,536 --> 00:21:50,416
Speaker 2: and we'd like hang with him backstage and like watch

440
00:21:50,456 --> 00:21:52,816
Speaker 2: the show. And like the crew guys kept being like,

441
00:21:53,596 --> 00:21:57,256
Speaker 2: you guys are still fucking here. And like, eventually they, they,

442
00:21:57,436 --> 00:21:59,756
Speaker 2: we are kind of their respect because they realized we

443
00:21:59,796 --> 00:22:02,876
Speaker 2: weren't just like out there to take it, take the

444
00:22:02,916 --> 00:22:05,256
Speaker 2: piss as they say in England. And, and, you know,

445
00:22:05,276 --> 00:22:06,916
Speaker 2: we'd never, you know, they, they realized we were in

446
00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:09,576
Speaker 2: it for the long haul and they, they came around

447
00:22:09,636 --> 00:22:13,616
Speaker 2: to being like, By 10 years later, they were like, hey, Lee,

448
00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:16,156
Speaker 2: how you doing when we were backstage or whatever. But

449
00:22:16,816 --> 00:22:19,676
Speaker 2: it was an evolution for them to open up to

450
00:22:19,716 --> 00:22:22,216
Speaker 2: that kind of thing and see that we weren't just

451
00:22:22,296 --> 00:22:24,556
Speaker 2: like jokers who didn't know how to tune our guitars

452
00:22:24,626 --> 00:22:25,016
Speaker 2: or whatever.

453
00:22:26,386 --> 00:22:30,326
Speaker 1: It's incredible to hear Neil's crew levying all the complaints

454
00:22:30,686 --> 00:22:33,406
Speaker 1: most people have about Neil.

455
00:22:33,986 --> 00:22:36,566
Speaker 2: The agreement we had going into that three months of

456
00:22:36,646 --> 00:22:38,766
Speaker 2: touring with him was that we could be as loud

457
00:22:38,806 --> 00:22:41,356
Speaker 2: as we wanted. and have full use of the PA

458
00:22:41,376 --> 00:22:43,516
Speaker 2: and all that stuff. But for the first couple of weeks,

459
00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:47,576
Speaker 2: they were tamping us down. And our sound man who was,

460
00:22:48,056 --> 00:22:49,776
Speaker 2: you know, he was kind of learning on the job,

461
00:22:49,816 --> 00:22:52,796
Speaker 2: had a mix for these big rooms, just finally came

462
00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:54,516
Speaker 2: to us and said like, they're not letting me do

463
00:22:54,556 --> 00:22:57,086
Speaker 2: my thing out there. They're, they're pulling down the master

464
00:22:57,126 --> 00:22:59,786
Speaker 2: volume or whatever it was. And, and this was like

465
00:22:59,846 --> 00:23:02,206
Speaker 2: two weeks into a three month tour. And we're like, okay,

466
00:23:02,226 --> 00:23:04,306
Speaker 2: if we can't fix this, we're going to quit. And,

467
00:23:05,266 --> 00:23:07,266
Speaker 2: and the news got to Neil and like, he put

468
00:23:07,306 --> 00:23:09,696
Speaker 2: his foot down and was just like, I asked these

469
00:23:09,736 --> 00:23:12,376
Speaker 2: guys to play, you give them like everything they want. And,

470
00:23:12,736 --> 00:23:14,896
Speaker 2: and it just got like so much better from there,

471
00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:18,616
Speaker 2: but you know, like, and it really took Neil himself, like,

472
00:23:18,796 --> 00:23:22,366
Speaker 2: you know, coming, coming forward on our behalf. And, and

473
00:23:22,406 --> 00:23:24,746
Speaker 2: that was, that was super cool. And, and it really

474
00:23:24,806 --> 00:23:25,986
Speaker 2: smoothed a lot of things out.

475
00:23:26,066 --> 00:23:29,586
Speaker 1: It's incredible guy to have on your side, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

476
00:23:29,626 --> 00:23:29,806
Speaker 2: Yeah.

477
00:23:29,826 --> 00:23:30,086
Speaker 1: Yeah.

478
00:23:30,106 --> 00:23:31,026
Speaker 2: Incredible. Yeah.

479
00:23:31,266 --> 00:23:33,686
Speaker 1: Did you ever figure out Neil all those years, no

480
00:23:33,766 --> 00:23:36,786
Speaker 1: opening act and then why, why you guys?

481
00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:39,496
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it was just the times

482
00:23:39,536 --> 00:23:42,476
Speaker 2: were changing and artists needed to have opening acts to

483
00:23:42,516 --> 00:23:44,736
Speaker 2: draw more people in and to make it a fuller bill.

484
00:23:45,516 --> 00:23:51,716
Speaker 2: And that was like dealings between Silva and Elliot. While

485
00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:54,096
Speaker 2: we were on that tour, we tried to convince Neil

486
00:23:54,116 --> 00:23:56,766
Speaker 2: that he should have Nirvana open for them. And it

487
00:23:56,816 --> 00:24:00,206
Speaker 2: never happened. But we were just like, you should have

488
00:24:00,266 --> 00:24:01,666
Speaker 2: Nirvana open for you, man.

489
00:24:02,426 --> 00:24:04,506
Speaker 1: He just had no clue. Yeah.

490
00:24:05,496 --> 00:24:07,246
Speaker 2: It wasn't the right moment, and then they were too

491
00:24:07,286 --> 00:24:10,566
Speaker 2: big to do anything like that. When we were talking

492
00:24:10,586 --> 00:24:13,606
Speaker 2: about them, they were still kind of an underground band,

493
00:24:13,646 --> 00:24:15,146
Speaker 2: but we were just like, you should hear this band.

494
00:24:15,186 --> 00:24:20,086
Speaker 2: They're so amazing. The next summer, or that summer, I guess,

495
00:24:20,266 --> 00:24:21,226
Speaker 2: Nevermind grew up.

496
00:24:21,846 --> 00:24:25,306
Speaker 1: When you guys put up the Goo demos, the front

497
00:24:25,326 --> 00:24:28,756
Speaker 1: cover is a photo of Cher, and one of the

498
00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:32,146
Speaker 1: inserts is Cher with David Geffen. in kind of like

499
00:24:32,186 --> 00:24:34,546
Speaker 1: an intimate pose.

500
00:24:34,566 --> 00:24:36,446
Speaker 2: They were, they were, they were a couple. You're right.

501
00:24:36,906 --> 00:24:39,766
Speaker 1: But like, did you, did that, was that like to

502
00:24:39,826 --> 00:24:41,306
Speaker 1: fuck with Gavin or was that?

503
00:24:41,866 --> 00:24:44,486
Speaker 2: You know, I guess so. I mean, nobody ever said

504
00:24:44,566 --> 00:24:45,246
Speaker 2: anything to us.

505
00:24:45,286 --> 00:24:45,466
Speaker 1: No.

506
00:24:45,486 --> 00:24:48,706
Speaker 2: You know, the first idea we had for the cover

507
00:24:48,746 --> 00:24:52,196
Speaker 2: of Goo, we wanted to use a pettibone and the first,

508
00:24:52,936 --> 00:24:54,436
Speaker 2: and we were also aware that, you know, we were

509
00:24:54,456 --> 00:24:57,536
Speaker 2: making this jump from the indies to the majors and

510
00:24:57,576 --> 00:24:59,436
Speaker 2: people were going to say sell out and all that

511
00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:03,136
Speaker 2: kind of shit. And so the first, cover proposal we

512
00:25:03,196 --> 00:25:07,576
Speaker 2: had with Geffen was his pettibone picture of, it was

513
00:25:07,616 --> 00:25:10,956
Speaker 2: a big line drawing of the face of Joan Crawford,

514
00:25:11,596 --> 00:25:15,096
Speaker 2: like with these huge red lips. And it said over

515
00:25:15,176 --> 00:25:18,436
Speaker 2: the top, blowjob with a question mark. And we wanted

516
00:25:18,476 --> 00:25:20,316
Speaker 2: that to be the record cover. And we wanted to

517
00:25:20,356 --> 00:25:24,186
Speaker 2: call the record blowjob, uh, just as a commentary on

518
00:25:24,246 --> 00:25:26,246
Speaker 2: like the indie band signing with the major and all

519
00:25:26,286 --> 00:25:29,086
Speaker 2: this shit. And like, they kind of came to us

520
00:25:29,166 --> 00:25:31,896
Speaker 2: and said, we know we can't tell you what to do,

521
00:25:32,196 --> 00:25:36,696
Speaker 2: but please, please don't do this. And they made a

522
00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:39,456
Speaker 2: strong enough case that we changed it to the cover

523
00:25:39,496 --> 00:25:44,496
Speaker 2: that everybody knows, which became such a crazy, iconic, uh, cover,

524
00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:48,936
Speaker 2: you know? Um, as a matter of fact, last year,

525
00:25:48,956 --> 00:25:52,456
Speaker 2: this Canadian artist put out a book of all, you know, there's,

526
00:25:52,476 --> 00:25:53,756
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've ever seen any of the

527
00:25:53,796 --> 00:25:57,976
Speaker 2: variations on that cover. I mean, there's a million spinoffs of,

528
00:25:58,156 --> 00:26:02,516
Speaker 2: of the goo cover. Like, Obama and Hillary or C-3PO

529
00:26:02,576 --> 00:26:07,336
Speaker 2: and R2-D2 or Jay-Z and Eminem or Brad Pitt and

530
00:26:07,416 --> 00:26:11,556
Speaker 2: Angelina Jolie. There's like, there's hundreds and Ren and Stimpy.

531
00:26:11,936 --> 00:26:16,056
Speaker 2: You know, there's hundreds of variations on that cover. They

532
00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:18,166
Speaker 2: keep coming out all the time. There was one called

533
00:26:18,246 --> 00:26:21,666
Speaker 2: Islamic Youth with a woman in a burqa and a

534
00:26:21,746 --> 00:26:25,106
Speaker 2: guy next to her. And some artist wrote this long

535
00:26:25,286 --> 00:26:27,826
Speaker 2: conceptual essay about it and published this kind of like

536
00:26:27,866 --> 00:26:33,286
Speaker 2: zine-like book. with like 200 different examples of these spinoffs

537
00:26:33,386 --> 00:26:36,426
Speaker 2: on the goo. They're called goo mashups. If you type

538
00:26:36,466 --> 00:26:39,066
Speaker 2: that into your computer, you can probably lead you somewhere

539
00:26:39,086 --> 00:26:41,906
Speaker 2: where you can see a bunch of them. But yeah,

540
00:26:41,966 --> 00:26:44,266
Speaker 2: we went with the right image instead. I don't think Blowjob,

541
00:26:44,546 --> 00:26:46,266
Speaker 2: I don't think that would have happened with Blowjob.

542
00:26:46,766 --> 00:26:48,306
Speaker 1: You guys have always had great covers, but that one

543
00:26:48,406 --> 00:26:51,976
Speaker 1: definitely just captured the imagination of people in a super

544
00:26:52,056 --> 00:26:52,816
Speaker 1: unique way.

545
00:26:52,996 --> 00:26:55,836
Speaker 2: I mean, the Mike Kelly images on Dirty Dirt, also

546
00:26:56,036 --> 00:26:58,986
Speaker 2: were very popular. That sock puppet and all that stuff,

547
00:26:58,996 --> 00:26:59,296
Speaker 2: you know?

548
00:26:59,336 --> 00:26:59,566
Speaker 1: Yeah.

549
00:26:59,866 --> 00:27:03,046
Speaker 2: We had cool cover artists. That was definitely for sure.

550
00:27:03,146 --> 00:27:07,366
Speaker 1: Yeah. In the Bad Moon Rising era, you guys did

551
00:27:07,386 --> 00:27:10,846
Speaker 1: the Richard Kern video for Death Valley 69. Yeah. There's

552
00:27:10,906 --> 00:27:13,386
Speaker 1: kind of like the, there's the Bad Moon Rising cover,

553
00:27:13,406 --> 00:27:17,056
Speaker 1: which is like, you know, I guess Halloween-y. There's a Halloween-ish.

554
00:27:17,396 --> 00:27:22,976
Speaker 1: Everything was a little horror movie, Halloween themed there for

555
00:27:22,996 --> 00:27:23,716
Speaker 1: a second, you know?

556
00:27:24,226 --> 00:27:28,186
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was definitely that autumnal kind of children of

557
00:27:28,226 --> 00:27:32,246
Speaker 2: the corn kind of moment. I don't know why we

558
00:27:32,286 --> 00:27:35,066
Speaker 2: were mining that, you know, at that particular moment in time.

559
00:27:35,266 --> 00:27:37,586
Speaker 2: You know, Husker Du had put out that record called

560
00:27:37,646 --> 00:27:38,626
Speaker 2: New Day Rising.

561
00:27:38,726 --> 00:27:38,946
Speaker 1: Yeah.

562
00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:42,756
Speaker 2: And we felt like Bad Moon Rising was our East

563
00:27:42,796 --> 00:27:46,096
Speaker 2: Coast version of that in some way. And of course,

564
00:27:46,136 --> 00:27:49,876
Speaker 2: we loved the Creedence song and the scarecrow on the

565
00:27:49,916 --> 00:27:53,716
Speaker 2: cover has a flannel, you know, a John Fogerty-esque flannel shirt.

566
00:27:54,356 --> 00:27:56,316
Speaker 2: And it was right when we were starting to work

567
00:27:56,336 --> 00:27:59,426
Speaker 2: with Blast First, the back cover of Bad Moon Rising

568
00:27:59,466 --> 00:28:01,686
Speaker 2: was like slapped together at the last minute because we

569
00:28:01,726 --> 00:28:03,866
Speaker 2: really needed a rushed back cover. And it's that picture

570
00:28:03,906 --> 00:28:06,406
Speaker 2: of the four of us with Bob Bird on drums

571
00:28:06,486 --> 00:28:11,066
Speaker 2: and the scarecrow. But the original back cover picture of

572
00:28:11,146 --> 00:28:15,246
Speaker 2: that record had a lot of handwritten text and it

573
00:28:15,286 --> 00:28:19,316
Speaker 2: had pictures of the four of us in our most

574
00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:23,396
Speaker 2: hippied out days, like me with super long hair and

575
00:28:23,436 --> 00:28:26,356
Speaker 2: a beard and Thurston with like a leather jacket kind

576
00:28:26,396 --> 00:28:28,896
Speaker 2: of punked out with long hair. And like, it had

577
00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:31,536
Speaker 2: these pictures and like Paul Smith looked at these pictures

578
00:28:31,576 --> 00:28:34,086
Speaker 2: and said, people are not going to get this. They're

579
00:28:34,106 --> 00:28:36,666
Speaker 2: not going to understand that that's not you right now.

580
00:28:36,746 --> 00:28:39,646
Speaker 2: And again, he was like, please don't do this. You know,

581
00:28:40,006 --> 00:28:41,946
Speaker 2: it was like, but we thought it was funny to

582
00:28:41,966 --> 00:28:45,946
Speaker 2: put like pictures of us from a previous, uh, in

583
00:28:46,066 --> 00:28:49,006
Speaker 2: our previous incarnations when we were young, you know, hippie

584
00:28:49,046 --> 00:28:51,406
Speaker 2: freaks or whatever. I don't know. We just had this

585
00:28:51,446 --> 00:28:53,326
Speaker 2: pumpkin thing for a while. We went to England right

586
00:28:53,346 --> 00:28:56,026
Speaker 2: around that same time and they didn't have the, the

587
00:28:56,086 --> 00:28:59,806
Speaker 2: pumpkin jack-o'-lantern tradition, you know? And so we were doing

588
00:28:59,846 --> 00:29:02,326
Speaker 2: like our first like big major show in England at

589
00:29:02,366 --> 00:29:05,926
Speaker 2: this place called the ICA, this Contemporary Art Institute. And

590
00:29:06,466 --> 00:29:08,926
Speaker 2: Paul Smith had the idea that we'd have like, you know,

591
00:29:09,186 --> 00:29:13,146
Speaker 2: four dozen jack-o'-lanterns on stage, all carved and, and ready

592
00:29:13,166 --> 00:29:15,846
Speaker 2: to go. And, and like, there were no pumpkins in England.

593
00:29:15,866 --> 00:29:19,526
Speaker 2: There were no orange pumpkins the size of your head.

594
00:29:19,566 --> 00:29:24,396
Speaker 2: There were these little softball sized green squash that like

595
00:29:24,436 --> 00:29:26,936
Speaker 2: looked like pumpkins. And so that's what they got. They

596
00:29:26,976 --> 00:29:28,996
Speaker 2: got like, they got like 40 or 50 of these

597
00:29:29,036 --> 00:29:31,336
Speaker 2: little pumpkins that we spent a couple of afternoons carving

598
00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:33,686
Speaker 2: them and had them all over the stage. It was,

599
00:29:33,886 --> 00:29:36,786
Speaker 2: it was super cool looking, but we were like, really,

600
00:29:36,806 --> 00:29:38,366
Speaker 2: they don't have pumpkins over here.

601
00:29:38,466 --> 00:29:40,506
Speaker 1: It was, it was, I love that. I love that

602
00:29:40,526 --> 00:29:45,676
Speaker 1: you guys, whether it's blast first or you guys, the

603
00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:49,216
Speaker 1: label head is always mad at you guys.

604
00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:52,016
Speaker 2: Yeah, beleaguered. Always beleaguered, I guess.

605
00:29:52,056 --> 00:29:56,146
Speaker 1: It's a great word, always beleaguered. It's a unique talent

606
00:29:56,166 --> 00:29:56,986
Speaker 1: you guys have.

607
00:29:57,566 --> 00:29:57,806
Speaker 2: Yeah.

608
00:29:58,466 --> 00:30:00,716
Speaker 1: Is it true that When you guys were doing Cool

609
00:30:00,736 --> 00:30:03,616
Speaker 1: Thing and you guys had Chuck D come record that

610
00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:07,666
Speaker 1: he had a crew of people with him, including Vanessa

611
00:30:07,706 --> 00:30:09,466
Speaker 1: Williams and Ice Cube.

612
00:30:10,506 --> 00:30:11,926
Speaker 2: I don't think that's true.

613
00:30:12,166 --> 00:30:12,786
Speaker 1: That's not true?

614
00:30:13,386 --> 00:30:15,646
Speaker 2: But I don't think that part about Vanessa Williams and

615
00:30:15,726 --> 00:30:18,506
Speaker 2: Ice Cube is true. He came on his own. You know,

616
00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:22,136
Speaker 2: we were working at this place in Soho here. We

617
00:30:22,156 --> 00:30:26,446
Speaker 2: did Daydream Nation there and we did Goo there. And

618
00:30:26,606 --> 00:30:28,906
Speaker 2: Public Enemy was working in the same studio. So we

619
00:30:28,926 --> 00:30:31,306
Speaker 2: were always there working in one studio and they were

620
00:30:31,346 --> 00:30:35,416
Speaker 2: in the other studio. And so the song is written

621
00:30:35,456 --> 00:30:39,076
Speaker 2: about LL because Kim had just interviewed LL and we

622
00:30:39,116 --> 00:30:42,696
Speaker 2: really loved that first LL Cool J record so much.

623
00:30:43,216 --> 00:30:45,696
Speaker 2: Can't Live Without My Radio, that whole album. We just

624
00:30:45,756 --> 00:30:48,216
Speaker 2: played that record to death. And the studio we were

625
00:30:48,256 --> 00:30:52,916
Speaker 2: working in called Green Street was really a hip hop studio.

626
00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:54,836
Speaker 2: We were one of the first rock bands that were

627
00:30:54,886 --> 00:30:57,926
Speaker 2: in there doing stuff. And the guy that we worked

628
00:30:57,966 --> 00:31:00,236
Speaker 2: with on that record, I don't know if he'd ever

629
00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:02,376
Speaker 2: done a rock record before. He was a hip hop.

630
00:31:02,436 --> 00:31:04,756
Speaker 2: They were all hip hop producers in there. But you

631
00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:08,616
Speaker 2: had Public Enemy working across the hall, making, you know,

632
00:31:08,696 --> 00:31:10,416
Speaker 2: It Takes a Nation of Millions and Fear of a

633
00:31:10,456 --> 00:31:13,226
Speaker 2: Black Planet. At the same time, we were making Daydream

634
00:31:13,246 --> 00:31:15,986
Speaker 2: Nation and Goo. And so we got to know those guys.

635
00:31:16,046 --> 00:31:19,166
Speaker 2: And in particular, we were admirers of the Hank Shockley

636
00:31:19,206 --> 00:31:21,966
Speaker 2: and his crew. Oh, the Bomb Squad. Yeah, the Bomb Squad.

637
00:31:22,586 --> 00:31:24,066
Speaker 2: So we got to hang with them a little bit,

638
00:31:24,106 --> 00:31:28,076
Speaker 2: which was like really cool for us. And Chuck just

639
00:31:28,146 --> 00:31:30,426
Speaker 2: wandered across from like his room to our room one

640
00:31:30,506 --> 00:31:32,966
Speaker 2: afternoon and did that on the spot, you know? So,

641
00:31:33,686 --> 00:31:36,526
Speaker 2: but I don't remember how. Ice Cube and Vanessa Williams

642
00:31:36,566 --> 00:31:41,086
Speaker 2: may have been visiting those dudes. And, you know, Flavor

643
00:31:41,126 --> 00:31:43,566
Speaker 2: Flav was in the hallway when my oldest son was

644
00:31:43,626 --> 00:31:45,646
Speaker 2: a little kid. He like came over and put his

645
00:31:46,446 --> 00:31:50,226
Speaker 2: big clock around the neck of my son and, you know,

646
00:31:50,266 --> 00:31:52,466
Speaker 2: stuff like that. But Chuck came over pretty much on

647
00:31:52,506 --> 00:31:54,046
Speaker 2: his own to do that. And he just went in

648
00:31:54,086 --> 00:31:58,436
Speaker 2: the vocal booth and like, without even much preparation, just

649
00:31:58,516 --> 00:32:01,476
Speaker 2: in like one take, he kind of did his thing.

650
00:32:01,616 --> 00:32:05,986
Speaker 1: Incredible. I might've misread the liner notes. I don't know.

651
00:32:06,016 --> 00:32:07,746
Speaker 2: I mean, I might be wrong about that, but I

652
00:32:07,806 --> 00:32:11,526
Speaker 2: certainly would remember if Ice Cube and Vanessa Williams were there.

653
00:32:11,606 --> 00:32:12,506
Speaker 2: I don't remember that.

654
00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:16,026
Speaker 1: Okay. Your lyrics around that time starts to feel like

655
00:32:16,326 --> 00:32:20,026
Speaker 1: maybe it corresponds with turning New York. Also the fact

656
00:32:20,046 --> 00:32:24,606
Speaker 1: that you guys were recording in a studio with Public Enemy,

657
00:32:24,646 --> 00:32:26,956
Speaker 1: but it does feel like there's a bit of like

658
00:32:26,996 --> 00:32:30,016
Speaker 1: a turn in theme around that time too. You know,

659
00:32:30,096 --> 00:32:31,336
Speaker 1: Daydream Nation, I guess I'm talking.

660
00:32:31,356 --> 00:32:32,956
Speaker 2: There may be. You know, we were a New York

661
00:32:32,996 --> 00:32:35,166
Speaker 2: band and all the stuff that was happening here was

662
00:32:35,386 --> 00:32:39,086
Speaker 2: influencing us greatly. Certainly when hip hop started, kind of

663
00:32:39,126 --> 00:32:43,446
Speaker 2: the same moment that like these noisy musicians were happening

664
00:32:43,466 --> 00:32:46,666
Speaker 2: like us and Swans and Live Skull or whoever. I mean,

665
00:32:46,706 --> 00:32:48,846
Speaker 2: hip hop was kind of starting at that same moment

666
00:32:49,046 --> 00:32:52,986
Speaker 2: and we loved that music. And we considered both kind

667
00:32:53,026 --> 00:32:54,986
Speaker 2: of what we were doing and what they were doing

668
00:32:55,066 --> 00:32:57,696
Speaker 2: as kind of these new urban folk musics of two

669
00:32:57,736 --> 00:33:00,476
Speaker 2: different sorts, you know, being made in the city in

670
00:33:00,496 --> 00:33:03,476
Speaker 2: this kind of urban environment. So we were definitely influenced

671
00:33:03,516 --> 00:33:08,576
Speaker 2: by that stuff. I don't know if I detect evolution

672
00:33:08,636 --> 00:33:10,746
Speaker 2: in the gritty quality of our music. I mean, I

673
00:33:10,756 --> 00:33:13,526
Speaker 2: think we always had kind of a gritty kind of

674
00:33:13,646 --> 00:33:16,926
Speaker 2: observational eye on things that took different forms. I mean,

675
00:33:16,946 --> 00:33:22,266
Speaker 2: sometimes more romantic and sometimes more gritty or a little

676
00:33:22,306 --> 00:33:23,006
Speaker 2: darker theme.

677
00:33:23,406 --> 00:33:27,876
Speaker 1: Yeah. New York... In 1980 versus New York in 1989,

678
00:33:27,876 --> 00:33:31,076
Speaker 1: what was the evolution? Did it feel different?

679
00:33:31,756 --> 00:33:34,806
Speaker 2: That pretty much is our first decade. I mean, New

680
00:33:34,846 --> 00:33:36,866
Speaker 2: York changed a lot in that decade. It was the

681
00:33:36,926 --> 00:33:39,986
Speaker 2: beginning of New York kind of coming back to life

682
00:33:40,046 --> 00:33:43,526
Speaker 2: from this really, like when we start in the period

683
00:33:43,546 --> 00:33:46,026
Speaker 2: when we started in like late 70s into early 80s,

684
00:33:46,046 --> 00:33:47,966
Speaker 2: New York was a pretty scuzzy place and it was

685
00:33:48,046 --> 00:33:50,626
Speaker 2: dirty and there was a lot of junkies on the

686
00:33:50,666 --> 00:33:52,976
Speaker 2: street and a lot of dope on the street. And

687
00:33:53,726 --> 00:33:55,486
Speaker 2: there were, you know, if you went to the East Village,

688
00:33:56,146 --> 00:33:58,606
Speaker 2: you know, it was, it was, could be scary to

689
00:33:58,626 --> 00:34:01,546
Speaker 2: go over there. You know, New York slowly was pulling

690
00:34:01,656 --> 00:34:04,076
Speaker 2: out of that. And I mean, by the end of

691
00:34:04,196 --> 00:34:08,436
Speaker 2: the 80s, a certain scene that we had come up with,

692
00:34:08,576 --> 00:34:10,836
Speaker 2: you know, the New York bands that we were, we

693
00:34:10,856 --> 00:34:13,986
Speaker 2: were kind of comrades with and the bands from around

694
00:34:14,026 --> 00:34:17,966
Speaker 2: the country and LA, a lot of that stuff had

695
00:34:18,266 --> 00:34:20,566
Speaker 2: either run its course or was kind of mutating into

696
00:34:20,606 --> 00:34:22,626
Speaker 2: something else at that point, you know, and, and we

697
00:34:22,666 --> 00:34:26,736
Speaker 2: were too, in a way we were going from being

698
00:34:26,776 --> 00:34:29,316
Speaker 2: a very local band in our first couple of years

699
00:34:29,996 --> 00:34:32,976
Speaker 2: to being a band that started touring the U S

700
00:34:33,056 --> 00:34:35,896
Speaker 2: and started to meet, you know, like meeting the Steve

701
00:34:35,956 --> 00:34:38,656
Speaker 2: Albini and big black in Chicago and meeting the butthole

702
00:34:38,696 --> 00:34:41,676
Speaker 2: surfers in Austin and meeting all the LA bands and

703
00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:45,526
Speaker 2: Seattle bands starting to be an American band. And by

704
00:34:45,566 --> 00:34:47,566
Speaker 2: the end of the 80s, we were on our first

705
00:34:47,646 --> 00:34:50,446
Speaker 2: worldwide tours and we were starting to like see what

706
00:34:50,486 --> 00:34:53,706
Speaker 2: was happening in Japan, for instance, and in Australia and

707
00:34:53,766 --> 00:34:58,216
Speaker 2: all over Europe. So we were becoming something different. I mean,

708
00:34:58,236 --> 00:35:04,116
Speaker 2: New York's place in our vision was not the totality

709
00:35:04,136 --> 00:35:06,016
Speaker 2: that it was in the early period, you know, in

710
00:35:06,056 --> 00:35:10,266
Speaker 2: a way. We were broadening out into all these, you know,

711
00:35:10,746 --> 00:35:13,766
Speaker 2: seeing all this other you know, marvelous music culture that

712
00:35:13,806 --> 00:35:16,786
Speaker 2: was going on all over the globe. And like, again,

713
00:35:16,826 --> 00:35:19,346
Speaker 2: like bringing as much of it into our fold as

714
00:35:19,406 --> 00:35:22,186
Speaker 2: we could, you know, touring with the Boredoms, for instance,

715
00:35:22,226 --> 00:35:26,656
Speaker 2: from Japan, or just bringing as many interesting people into

716
00:35:26,696 --> 00:35:27,736
Speaker 2: the picture as we could.

717
00:35:31,316 --> 00:35:34,736
Speaker 1: Was the scene you guys were a part of, late 70s,

718
00:35:34,776 --> 00:35:37,756
Speaker 1: early 80s, was that replaced with anything in the early 90s?

719
00:35:37,776 --> 00:35:42,316
Speaker 1: Was there anything like that, that you just weren't, part

720
00:35:42,336 --> 00:35:44,196
Speaker 1: of anymore because you guys had kind of maybe outgrown

721
00:35:44,236 --> 00:35:47,486
Speaker 1: it was there anything there grunge grunge.

722
00:35:47,486 --> 00:35:50,586
Speaker 2: Okay you know grudge is what took over in the

723
00:35:50,646 --> 00:35:53,246
Speaker 2: early 90s you know mud honey and all the bands

724
00:35:53,266 --> 00:35:56,486
Speaker 2: from seattle and and of course nirvana or you know

725
00:35:56,506 --> 00:35:58,826
Speaker 2: and even before that like sort of proto grunge like

726
00:35:58,886 --> 00:36:01,906
Speaker 2: dinosaur junior dinosaur that would you know we played a

727
00:36:01,926 --> 00:36:05,066
Speaker 2: lot of shows with them we loved them and both

728
00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:08,776
Speaker 2: grunge and then bands like pavement and the breeders and

729
00:36:08,796 --> 00:36:12,046
Speaker 2: you know there was a real um renaissance of like,

730
00:36:12,186 --> 00:36:15,326
Speaker 2: you know, sort of what they grew to call indie rock,

731
00:36:15,386 --> 00:36:18,566
Speaker 2: you know, and, you know, these new personalities like Kim

732
00:36:18,626 --> 00:36:23,796
Speaker 2: Deal and Malkmus and his crew and whatever. And, uh,

733
00:36:23,866 --> 00:36:28,046
Speaker 2: and Courtney, of course, all the, all the Seattle bands, uh,

734
00:36:28,106 --> 00:36:30,086
Speaker 2: that's kind of what was happening. And we really embraced

735
00:36:30,126 --> 00:36:32,196
Speaker 2: that stuff. It, I mean, if you look at a

736
00:36:32,256 --> 00:36:35,936
Speaker 2: record like Dirty, which was the record that happened after, uh,

737
00:36:37,036 --> 00:36:41,366
Speaker 2: Nirvana and, and the rise of that whole not just Nirvana,

738
00:36:41,426 --> 00:36:46,146
Speaker 2: but this kind of harder-edged, like, you know, Stooges-y, you know,

739
00:36:46,826 --> 00:36:51,206
Speaker 2: Seattle movement. I mean, we embraced a lot of that stuff.

740
00:36:51,256 --> 00:36:54,216
Speaker 2: And for a period there, our music, especially on Dirty,

741
00:36:54,276 --> 00:36:58,356
Speaker 2: I think our music got harder in kind of emulation

742
00:36:58,396 --> 00:37:00,876
Speaker 2: or inspiration from a lot of those bands.

743
00:37:01,516 --> 00:37:04,016
Speaker 1: I was going to ask if there was pressure to

744
00:37:04,416 --> 00:37:09,246
Speaker 1: make a certain sounding record after the Nevermind explosion. There wasn't.

745
00:37:09,706 --> 00:37:13,146
Speaker 2: Only internal pressure. Like, man, this sounds great. Let's make

746
00:37:13,186 --> 00:37:17,186
Speaker 2: a record that has that kind of balls-out ferocity or whatever.

747
00:37:17,686 --> 00:37:21,856
Speaker 2: And of course, for Dirty, we used the Nirvana team

748
00:37:21,936 --> 00:37:27,036
Speaker 2: of Butch Figg, who we'd known for years, and Andy Wallace.

749
00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:30,636
Speaker 1: Oh, wow. You did the dual combo. That's amazing. Yeah.

750
00:37:30,776 --> 00:37:32,176
Speaker 1: I didn't know Andy Wallace mixed that.

751
00:37:32,216 --> 00:37:34,136
Speaker 2: Yeah, he mixed that. And then Butch made the next

752
00:37:34,216 --> 00:37:35,916
Speaker 2: record with us, but not Andy.

753
00:37:36,036 --> 00:37:36,276
Speaker 1: Andy.

754
00:37:37,156 --> 00:37:38,966
Speaker 2: And then we just went back to making records on

755
00:37:39,006 --> 00:37:41,186
Speaker 2: our own, like where our comfort zone was in a way,

756
00:37:41,206 --> 00:37:45,006
Speaker 2: you know, but that was the first couple of records

757
00:37:45,066 --> 00:37:48,146
Speaker 2: for Geffen. By the time we did Daydream Nation, I

758
00:37:48,186 --> 00:37:51,876
Speaker 2: think our recording budget for Daydream Nation, which was obviously

759
00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:59,516
Speaker 2: the biggest one up till that point was like $ 30, 000

760
00:37:56,076 --> 00:37:58,796
Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, and maybe we made

761
00:37:58,836 --> 00:38:02,466
Speaker 2: that record in 10 or 12 days total. And the

762
00:38:02,526 --> 00:38:05,666
Speaker 2: next record, Goo, the budget was like $ 150, 000. And it

763
00:38:06,386 --> 00:38:08,466
Speaker 2: took us weeks and weeks to make that record, maybe

764
00:38:08,586 --> 00:38:11,896
Speaker 2: months and months even. A bunch of different studios. And

765
00:38:12,276 --> 00:38:15,736
Speaker 2: those first couple records there were like us wondering, like, well,

766
00:38:15,756 --> 00:38:17,596
Speaker 2: if you took a band like Sonic Youth and you

767
00:38:17,636 --> 00:38:21,836
Speaker 2: really produced them the way you produced an Aerosmith record, say,

768
00:38:22,056 --> 00:38:25,406
Speaker 2: you know, threw tons of money at it and spent

769
00:38:25,466 --> 00:38:27,186
Speaker 2: all the time it would take to make a record

770
00:38:27,246 --> 00:38:30,396
Speaker 2: like that, you know, what would Sonic Youth sound like

771
00:38:30,516 --> 00:38:32,436
Speaker 2: in that regard? And those were the records where we

772
00:38:32,476 --> 00:38:34,736
Speaker 2: were experimenting with that. And, and in the end we

773
00:38:34,796 --> 00:38:37,446
Speaker 2: realized like, didn't really matter. It didn't make a big

774
00:38:37,486 --> 00:38:40,666
Speaker 2: difference to who we were as a band. And, uh,

775
00:38:40,746 --> 00:38:43,306
Speaker 2: and we actually liked a little bit more homespun kind

776
00:38:43,346 --> 00:38:47,326
Speaker 2: of production anyway, that wasn't so big and bossy or

777
00:38:47,466 --> 00:38:50,056
Speaker 2: glossy or whatever. You know, we, we made our own

778
00:38:50,116 --> 00:38:52,356
Speaker 2: studio after that and just made our own, made our

779
00:38:52,396 --> 00:38:55,036
Speaker 2: records at home after that pretty much, you know, and

780
00:38:55,236 --> 00:38:57,906
Speaker 2: just started making our records in our own little clubhouse and,

781
00:38:58,466 --> 00:39:01,646
Speaker 2: and that was really where the action was for us.

782
00:39:02,166 --> 00:39:04,146
Speaker 1: Do you think by that point, too, that you felt

783
00:39:04,246 --> 00:39:06,406
Speaker 1: you kind of knew you weren't going anywhere?

784
00:39:06,686 --> 00:39:08,586
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think we felt that at every

785
00:39:08,666 --> 00:39:12,516
Speaker 2: point in our trajectory, but we just always felt pretty

786
00:39:12,556 --> 00:39:14,696
Speaker 2: much in control of our destiny, and it wasn't like

787
00:39:14,736 --> 00:39:17,536
Speaker 2: we were being buffeted by outside forces of fame or

788
00:39:17,616 --> 00:39:21,556
Speaker 2: fortune or anything like that. We got sick of paying

789
00:39:21,556 --> 00:39:23,966
Speaker 2: $ 1, 000 an hour or whatever it was to work in

790
00:39:23,986 --> 00:39:27,326
Speaker 2: a fancy studio, and we worked in some incredible studios,

791
00:39:27,406 --> 00:39:29,556
Speaker 2: but It was more fun for us to be able

792
00:39:29,576 --> 00:39:33,186
Speaker 2: to have, like I said, a kind of clubhouse atmosphere

793
00:39:33,186 --> 00:39:35,946
Speaker 2: here on Murray Street, kind of not far from where

794
00:39:35,946 --> 00:39:38,016
Speaker 2: I'm sitting, and and just like show up four or

795
00:39:38,036 --> 00:39:41,096
Speaker 2: five days a week, work 12 to six or whatever

796
00:39:41,116 --> 00:39:45,316
Speaker 2: it was, and just get together, read newspapers, share magazines

797
00:39:45,376 --> 00:39:48,146
Speaker 2: and books and play for a few hours. And, you know,

798
00:39:48,166 --> 00:39:50,226
Speaker 2: you might get a take, you know, the machines were there.

799
00:39:50,306 --> 00:39:52,246
Speaker 2: It was always set up. All the mics were in place.

800
00:39:52,266 --> 00:39:55,426
Speaker 2: It was always ready to go. And we started making

801
00:39:55,446 --> 00:39:59,006
Speaker 2: our records like that. And that, that was, uh, really

802
00:39:59,046 --> 00:40:02,506
Speaker 2: conducive to a lot of our later records, for sure.

803
00:40:03,506 --> 00:40:06,396
Speaker 2: And we started our own label called SYR, where we

804
00:40:06,416 --> 00:40:10,116
Speaker 2: were putting out not songy stuff that we put out

805
00:40:10,196 --> 00:40:13,136
Speaker 2: on the Geffen records, but more experimental stuff. And it

806
00:40:13,176 --> 00:40:16,516
Speaker 2: gave us this laboratory to do all kinds of different stuff,

807
00:40:16,756 --> 00:40:20,296
Speaker 2: a lot of weird collaborations. That's how we first started

808
00:40:20,336 --> 00:40:23,216
Speaker 2: working with Jim O'Rourke, who became a full-fledged member for

809
00:40:23,256 --> 00:40:26,166
Speaker 2: a period of four or five years. He came to

810
00:40:26,206 --> 00:40:28,086
Speaker 2: New York and we were doing these kind of collaborative

811
00:40:28,436 --> 00:40:31,456
Speaker 2: recording sessions and we did one with him and then

812
00:40:31,556 --> 00:40:34,686
Speaker 2: that led to him co-producing our records for a little

813
00:40:34,706 --> 00:40:36,266
Speaker 2: bit and playing in the band.

814
00:40:36,546 --> 00:40:37,966
Speaker 1: So there was no point in your career were you

815
00:40:38,026 --> 00:40:42,186
Speaker 1: ever worried uh maybe we maybe i'll have to get

816
00:40:42,206 --> 00:40:44,166
Speaker 1: a day job or maybe i won't be able to

817
00:40:44,326 --> 00:40:46,206
Speaker 1: do this forever.

818
00:40:46,046 --> 00:40:49,086
Speaker 2: No not after we quit those early day jobs uh

819
00:40:49,226 --> 00:40:50,706
Speaker 2: you know we by the time we were made i

820
00:40:51,046 --> 00:40:53,266
Speaker 2: think bad moon rising was probably the last record where

821
00:40:53,306 --> 00:40:56,706
Speaker 2: we had day jobs and then we started money started

822
00:40:56,746 --> 00:41:00,256
Speaker 2: dribbling in from tours and enough to live on. You know,

823
00:41:00,276 --> 00:41:02,306
Speaker 2: New York was a cheap place to live back then

824
00:41:02,346 --> 00:41:06,446
Speaker 2: as opposed to now. And once we quit our day jobs,

825
00:41:06,506 --> 00:41:08,906
Speaker 2: we never looked back and never even thought about the

826
00:41:08,926 --> 00:41:10,646
Speaker 2: fact that we might have to do that again. You know,

827
00:41:10,666 --> 00:41:13,086
Speaker 2: we're getting established. We're getting a certain kind of respect,

828
00:41:13,146 --> 00:41:16,086
Speaker 2: even if it wasn't dollars and cents kind of respect.

829
00:41:16,146 --> 00:41:20,046
Speaker 2: But it was, you know, Art Forum was writing about us. And,

830
00:41:20,086 --> 00:41:23,176
Speaker 2: you know, people were writing about us in a lot

831
00:41:23,196 --> 00:41:26,516
Speaker 2: of like cross-cultural ways, not just the music magazines or

832
00:41:26,556 --> 00:41:28,836
Speaker 2: the fanzines, but they were writing about us too. And

833
00:41:29,686 --> 00:41:35,086
Speaker 2: and the English magazines. At some point, Rolling Stone and

834
00:41:35,146 --> 00:41:38,306
Speaker 2: Spin started picking up some stuff. We were just on

835
00:41:38,486 --> 00:41:42,086
Speaker 2: a pretty hermetic trajectory. We were doing our own thing.

836
00:41:43,126 --> 00:41:46,326
Speaker 2: We were making some movie soundtracks and making our albums.

837
00:41:46,386 --> 00:41:48,826
Speaker 2: It was all going in the right direction as far

838
00:41:48,866 --> 00:41:49,666
Speaker 2: as we were concerned.

839
00:41:49,976 --> 00:41:52,376
Speaker 1: Speaking of movie soundtracks, I want to ask you about

840
00:41:53,336 --> 00:41:57,076
Speaker 1: the system. Oh, yeah. Last question before we get to

841
00:41:57,096 --> 00:42:01,856
Speaker 1: the system is, You guys used standard tuning on the

842
00:42:01,896 --> 00:42:03,296
Speaker 1: first Sonic Youth album, right?

843
00:42:03,816 --> 00:42:04,516
Speaker 2: The first one.

844
00:42:04,876 --> 00:42:06,836
Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess what changed?

845
00:42:07,396 --> 00:42:09,796
Speaker 2: You know, even the first record, I don't think it's

846
00:42:09,916 --> 00:42:12,236
Speaker 2: all in standard tuning, but those are the earliest songs

847
00:42:12,276 --> 00:42:15,376
Speaker 2: we wrote. But when we started, you know, I'd been

848
00:42:15,396 --> 00:42:17,506
Speaker 2: playing with Glenn Branca at that point, and he was

849
00:42:17,666 --> 00:42:19,826
Speaker 2: tuning the guitars in all kinds of weird ways. And

850
00:42:20,206 --> 00:42:22,046
Speaker 2: I knew a bit about that before I grew up

851
00:42:22,446 --> 00:42:25,026
Speaker 2: using altered tunings. That's kind of how I learned to

852
00:42:25,086 --> 00:42:27,866
Speaker 2: play guitar. I had an older cousin who showed me

853
00:42:27,906 --> 00:42:31,206
Speaker 2: some stuff. And once you tune the guitar to an

854
00:42:31,266 --> 00:42:33,836
Speaker 2: open chord, you sound really good, even though you can.

855
00:42:33,736 --> 00:42:35,136
Speaker 1: Barely play, you know?

856
00:42:35,776 --> 00:42:41,236
Speaker 2: And that's still my hypothesis today, basically. But we didn't

857
00:42:41,256 --> 00:42:43,096
Speaker 2: have many guitars, but the ones we had were kind

858
00:42:43,136 --> 00:42:44,976
Speaker 2: of cheap and they wouldn't really stay in tune. And

859
00:42:45,016 --> 00:42:47,696
Speaker 2: so we started just fucking with them, you know, putting

860
00:42:47,756 --> 00:42:51,666
Speaker 2: stuff under the strings, screwdrivers and drumsticks and just using

861
00:42:51,686 --> 00:42:56,086
Speaker 2: them as noise-making tools. And as soon as we left

862
00:42:56,186 --> 00:43:01,396
Speaker 2: standard tunings behind... We became a unique band. You know,

863
00:43:01,416 --> 00:43:03,796
Speaker 2: that was the one thing, especially in the early period before,

864
00:43:03,836 --> 00:43:05,716
Speaker 2: like a lot of people realized you could play in

865
00:43:06,176 --> 00:43:08,836
Speaker 2: different tunings. You know, by the time Pavement comes around

866
00:43:08,896 --> 00:43:12,456
Speaker 2: in early 90s, they're playing in open tunings and kind

867
00:43:12,496 --> 00:43:15,336
Speaker 2: of inspired by what we were doing. But in the 80s,

868
00:43:15,836 --> 00:43:19,636
Speaker 2: nobody was doing that. And when you heard us play

869
00:43:19,756 --> 00:43:22,496
Speaker 2: or you heard our music, it just did not sound

870
00:43:22,536 --> 00:43:25,596
Speaker 2: like anybody else because we weren't playing G and C

871
00:43:25,676 --> 00:43:28,656
Speaker 2: and D or whatever it was. I mean, maybe we

872
00:43:28,696 --> 00:43:31,216
Speaker 2: were in these weird open tunings, but we just had

873
00:43:31,256 --> 00:43:34,616
Speaker 2: a different kind of sense of tonality and musical texture

874
00:43:34,656 --> 00:43:38,096
Speaker 2: going that was different from everybody else. So you heard

875
00:43:38,136 --> 00:43:40,776
Speaker 2: our music and you immediately knew it was Sonic Youth.

876
00:43:40,816 --> 00:43:44,016
Speaker 2: It wasn't Green on Red or the Long Riders or

877
00:43:44,076 --> 00:43:46,716
Speaker 2: whoever else was kind of popular guitar bands back then.

878
00:43:46,736 --> 00:43:49,456
Speaker 2: We were doing something totally different and it immediately set

879
00:43:49,516 --> 00:43:52,876
Speaker 2: us apart. And we didn't do it because we wanted

880
00:43:52,896 --> 00:43:54,726
Speaker 2: to be set apart. We did it because that's what

881
00:43:54,796 --> 00:43:58,106
Speaker 2: naturally where our minds went with it. But And it

882
00:43:58,186 --> 00:44:03,306
Speaker 2: opened up this incredible world of tonality, basically, that wasn't

883
00:44:03,346 --> 00:44:08,446
Speaker 2: there in playing those standard chords. We couldn't rely on...

884
00:44:08,066 --> 00:44:11,066
Speaker 2: When you learn guitar, you learn whatever it is. You

885
00:44:11,086 --> 00:44:14,976
Speaker 2: learn Clapton riffs, or you learn those basic bar chords.

886
00:44:15,476 --> 00:44:18,016
Speaker 2: All that shit went out the window, so we couldn't

887
00:44:18,096 --> 00:44:21,576
Speaker 2: fall back into these standard odds. Here's how many guitar

888
00:44:21,616 --> 00:44:25,096
Speaker 2: players have you heard riffing over a set of blues changes,

889
00:44:25,156 --> 00:44:28,516
Speaker 2: and they're playing You know, they're playing Clapton-esque riffs or whoever,

890
00:44:28,536 --> 00:44:31,316
Speaker 2: you know, fill in the guitar player here. And our

891
00:44:31,356 --> 00:44:34,296
Speaker 2: stuff was just so different because we couldn't do any

892
00:44:34,316 --> 00:44:37,336
Speaker 2: of that stuff because our strings were all weird. So

893
00:44:37,356 --> 00:44:39,756
Speaker 2: it meant we had to devise a language of our own,

894
00:44:39,796 --> 00:44:42,226
Speaker 2: which really, really set us apart in a lot of

895
00:44:42,266 --> 00:44:42,806
Speaker 2: great ways.

896
00:44:43,086 --> 00:44:46,566
Speaker 1: Are there tunings that you, to this day, are more

897
00:44:46,626 --> 00:44:48,066
Speaker 1: partial to or do you just.

898
00:44:48,486 --> 00:44:51,186
Speaker 2: They kind of shift and change over the years. I mean,

899
00:44:51,226 --> 00:44:53,326
Speaker 2: I don't even know if I'm using any tunings right

900
00:44:53,386 --> 00:44:57,246
Speaker 2: now that Sonic Youth was using back then. And we

901
00:44:57,286 --> 00:44:59,786
Speaker 2: went through a million different tunings across our career, which

902
00:44:59,846 --> 00:45:02,166
Speaker 2: is why we had all these like cheat sheets and

903
00:45:02,526 --> 00:45:06,336
Speaker 2: spreadsheets with different tunings for different records. And our crew

904
00:45:06,356 --> 00:45:10,596
Speaker 2: guys really kept all that stuff together for us. But

905
00:45:10,756 --> 00:45:13,516
Speaker 2: there's actually one of my main tunings now I probably

906
00:45:13,556 --> 00:45:16,996
Speaker 2: was using back then as well. But, you know, it's

907
00:45:17,036 --> 00:45:19,226
Speaker 2: just kind of a constantly evolving thing. You pick up

908
00:45:19,266 --> 00:45:21,986
Speaker 2: a guitar, you start twisting the strings until it sounds cool.

909
00:45:22,026 --> 00:45:24,146
Speaker 2: And then you start trying to figure out where you

910
00:45:24,166 --> 00:45:24,806
Speaker 2: put your fingers.

911
00:45:25,116 --> 00:45:27,396
Speaker 1: Tell me about the system. I imagine you saw the

912
00:45:27,536 --> 00:45:31,176
Speaker 1: film before you made the music and before you signed

913
00:45:31,236 --> 00:45:31,716
Speaker 1: on to do it.

914
00:45:32,516 --> 00:45:35,686
Speaker 2: They were working on the film while they were sending

915
00:45:35,706 --> 00:45:38,326
Speaker 2: me rough cuts. And as I was making the music

916
00:45:38,466 --> 00:45:42,646
Speaker 2: for different scenes, they were updating the cuts of the film. Yeah,

917
00:45:43,006 --> 00:45:47,086
Speaker 2: it's done by this Dutch director named Joris Postema. And

918
00:45:47,456 --> 00:45:50,186
Speaker 2: they asked me to do it. And I mean, I'd

919
00:45:50,226 --> 00:45:52,686
Speaker 2: done a bunch of stuff for films before. Like I

920
00:45:52,726 --> 00:45:54,816
Speaker 2: worked on that Todd Haynes film and some other things.

921
00:45:54,896 --> 00:45:57,616
Speaker 2: And Sonic Youth did four or five different film soundtracks.

922
00:45:57,656 --> 00:46:00,356
Speaker 2: But it was one of the first recent ones that

923
00:46:00,376 --> 00:46:02,816
Speaker 2: I've done on my own, like start to finish. And

924
00:46:02,996 --> 00:46:06,336
Speaker 2: in the last two years, in addition to the system,

925
00:46:06,396 --> 00:46:09,776
Speaker 2: I did the score for a film by these two

926
00:46:09,836 --> 00:46:13,656
Speaker 2: Brazilian directors that's just starting to hit the festival circuit

927
00:46:13,716 --> 00:46:16,956
Speaker 2: right now. And I did a short film for this

928
00:46:17,616 --> 00:46:20,926
Speaker 2: independent director in Boston named Tom Bell about is kind

929
00:46:20,946 --> 00:46:23,786
Speaker 2: of an artist portrait of this guy from Maine that

930
00:46:23,846 --> 00:46:28,226
Speaker 2: does these weird drawings out in swampy waters. And that

931
00:46:28,266 --> 00:46:31,906
Speaker 2: film actually, that short film, my score won a best,

932
00:46:32,106 --> 00:46:34,916
Speaker 2: best score award at some, some small festival, which was

933
00:46:34,976 --> 00:46:36,996
Speaker 2: kind of cool. But in the last two years, I

934
00:46:37,076 --> 00:46:40,196
Speaker 2: started doing more movie soundtracks and I sort of built

935
00:46:40,236 --> 00:46:45,046
Speaker 2: myself a new studio for, for this purpose. Uh, and, um,

936
00:46:45,696 --> 00:46:47,776
Speaker 2: working on the system was a great experience for me

937
00:46:47,816 --> 00:46:50,756
Speaker 2: because it was really, it was my test drive for

938
00:46:50,816 --> 00:46:52,666
Speaker 2: the studio. I was working on it. I thought could

939
00:46:52,706 --> 00:46:54,606
Speaker 2: be like a potential place where I could do more

940
00:46:54,666 --> 00:46:57,406
Speaker 2: film scoring and I could also work on my own music.

941
00:46:57,466 --> 00:47:01,426
Speaker 2: And I've in between these film scores, I've been working

942
00:47:01,486 --> 00:47:03,286
Speaker 2: on what's going to be my next record, which I'm

943
00:47:03,326 --> 00:47:07,666
Speaker 2: now full steam working on my next proper album. But, um,

944
00:47:08,766 --> 00:47:10,626
Speaker 2: they liked what I was doing. And right away I

945
00:47:10,646 --> 00:47:13,796
Speaker 2: started giving them some weird stuff and they, they responded

946
00:47:13,856 --> 00:47:15,856
Speaker 2: to it. And, and, gave me a lot of free

947
00:47:15,916 --> 00:47:18,636
Speaker 2: reign to do some different things. And so for me,

948
00:47:18,656 --> 00:47:20,156
Speaker 2: it was a really cool experience and it was a

949
00:47:20,216 --> 00:47:24,636
Speaker 2: really intensive experience over like four or five months or,

950
00:47:24,816 --> 00:47:27,236
Speaker 2: or more maybe of sending tracks back and forth with

951
00:47:27,256 --> 00:47:31,076
Speaker 2: them and kind of debugging my studio and setting up

952
00:47:31,136 --> 00:47:33,836
Speaker 2: more and more instruments to work on it. And I

953
00:47:33,876 --> 00:47:36,936
Speaker 2: guess we connected through Ethan Miller, whose silver current label

954
00:47:36,996 --> 00:47:42,256
Speaker 2: is putting out this, uh, this re-imagined soundtrack of the movie, uh,

955
00:47:42,626 --> 00:47:45,266
Speaker 2: The movie soundtrack has got a lot of music on it,

956
00:47:45,326 --> 00:47:48,806
Speaker 2: some piano music and some other stuff. And Ethan came

957
00:47:48,866 --> 00:47:51,286
Speaker 2: to me. He really responded to the music. And he said,

958
00:47:52,046 --> 00:47:55,226
Speaker 2: let's put out a record that really focuses on the

959
00:47:55,276 --> 00:47:58,736
Speaker 2: guitar music you made for this movie and put out

960
00:47:58,836 --> 00:48:02,016
Speaker 2: a kind of like a Lee Ronaldo guitar record kind

961
00:48:02,036 --> 00:48:04,556
Speaker 2: of thing and a more experimental guitar record. And so

962
00:48:04,596 --> 00:48:07,896
Speaker 2: that's the tracks we focused on for his really upcoming

963
00:48:07,976 --> 00:48:11,056
Speaker 2: vinyl release. I think it comes out October 2nd. he

964
00:48:11,076 --> 00:48:13,056
Speaker 2: chose a really good group of tracks. We used a

965
00:48:13,096 --> 00:48:15,656
Speaker 2: couple tracks that the movie didn't end up using. So

966
00:48:15,696 --> 00:48:19,296
Speaker 2: there's a couple, uh, unreleased things on there. And, um,

967
00:48:19,706 --> 00:48:21,806
Speaker 2: for me, it was, it was a super cool experience.

968
00:48:21,846 --> 00:48:23,966
Speaker 2: I was playing a lot of keyboards on, on some

969
00:48:24,006 --> 00:48:25,926
Speaker 2: of it and, and a lot of, uh, a lot

970
00:48:25,946 --> 00:48:29,206
Speaker 2: of different acoustic and electric guitars and some other, uh,

971
00:48:29,326 --> 00:48:31,836
Speaker 2: I play a lot of these weird homemade instruments that

972
00:48:31,876 --> 00:48:35,636
Speaker 2: this guy in Holland builds for me just had pretty

973
00:48:35,696 --> 00:48:38,056
Speaker 2: free reign to do this. You know, there's three main characters.

974
00:48:38,096 --> 00:48:39,756
Speaker 2: And so I kind of developed a theme for each

975
00:48:39,796 --> 00:48:41,986
Speaker 2: of them and, And I feel like I'm kind of

976
00:48:42,046 --> 00:48:43,906
Speaker 2: primed at this point that I could do some more

977
00:48:44,206 --> 00:48:45,256
Speaker 2: film soundtracks.

978
00:48:45,546 --> 00:48:47,776
Speaker 1: Well, it also makes sense to me that you say

979
00:48:47,796 --> 00:48:51,596
Speaker 1: you're also primed or full steam ahead on your next

980
00:48:51,636 --> 00:48:53,596
Speaker 1: solo thing. Because, I mean, you know, sometimes you hear

981
00:48:53,616 --> 00:48:56,056
Speaker 1: a film soundtrack and it can even be a really

982
00:48:56,136 --> 00:48:59,656
Speaker 1: good film soundtrack, but sometimes it doesn't have the character

983
00:48:59,676 --> 00:49:01,536
Speaker 1: of the person who made it so much in it,

984
00:49:01,536 --> 00:49:05,676
Speaker 1: which isn't always a bad thing. But at least the

985
00:49:05,736 --> 00:49:08,896
Speaker 1: version that Ethan put together of it, which is what

986
00:49:08,936 --> 00:49:11,516
Speaker 1: I've heard, It really has a lot of character to

987
00:49:11,576 --> 00:49:13,696
Speaker 1: it beyond the character of what I imagine is the film.

988
00:49:13,716 --> 00:49:15,716
Speaker 1: But it feels like there's a lot of you in it. Yeah.

989
00:49:16,016 --> 00:49:20,186
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it definitely does. I'm deep into my next

990
00:49:20,246 --> 00:49:22,766
Speaker 2: record and I'm super excited by it because a lot

991
00:49:22,786 --> 00:49:24,846
Speaker 2: of the tracks are just turning out really great. And

992
00:49:25,506 --> 00:49:28,486
Speaker 2: all of this work on the system and these other features.

993
00:49:29,436 --> 00:49:31,396
Speaker 2: and this short film that I did have all kind

994
00:49:31,436 --> 00:49:35,356
Speaker 2: of contributed to where I'm at right now in general.

995
00:49:35,696 --> 00:49:38,346
Speaker 2: So it's a good moment for me.

996
00:49:38,546 --> 00:49:40,886
Speaker 1: That's great. Are you working with anyone else on that

997
00:49:41,006 --> 00:49:42,886
Speaker 1: project or is it just you?

998
00:49:43,246 --> 00:49:45,726
Speaker 2: I'm working with this guy that I've been working with

999
00:49:45,746 --> 00:49:48,796
Speaker 2: for the last two or three years called Yonatan Gatt.

1000
00:49:49,796 --> 00:49:53,576
Speaker 2: He was in a band called Monotonics. He's Israeli. He's

1001
00:49:53,616 --> 00:49:56,706
Speaker 2: lived in New York area for a long time. And

1002
00:49:56,756 --> 00:50:02,106
Speaker 2: he's a multi-instrumentalist and producer. And so I've been playing

1003
00:50:02,146 --> 00:50:04,346
Speaker 2: with him in this group called the Medicine Singers for

1004
00:50:04,366 --> 00:50:07,286
Speaker 2: the last few years. And it's a bunch of sort

1005
00:50:07,306 --> 00:50:11,226
Speaker 2: of rock and experimental players playing with these indigenous Native

1006
00:50:11,266 --> 00:50:15,386
Speaker 2: American singers and drummers that sort of sit in a

1007
00:50:15,426 --> 00:50:18,126
Speaker 2: powwow around a circle with all their regalia on and

1008
00:50:18,146 --> 00:50:20,926
Speaker 2: they're they're singing their native songs and we're kind of

1009
00:50:20,986 --> 00:50:23,286
Speaker 2: backing them up with like a drum kit and electric

1010
00:50:23,306 --> 00:50:27,416
Speaker 2: guitars and stuff, electric bass. And it's been really cool.

1011
00:50:27,456 --> 00:50:30,356
Speaker 2: We've done some work with the medicine, medicine singers themselves

1012
00:50:30,456 --> 00:50:34,296
Speaker 2: are a new England tribe, but we've done work with

1013
00:50:34,356 --> 00:50:37,956
Speaker 2: a bunch of first nations players in Canada. And we

1014
00:50:37,976 --> 00:50:42,046
Speaker 2: were down in Brazil working with indigenous musicians down there.

1015
00:50:42,446 --> 00:50:44,746
Speaker 2: It's it's so it's kind of a hybrid project. That's

1016
00:50:45,186 --> 00:50:47,406
Speaker 2: been really cool. And Yonatan brought me in on that

1017
00:50:47,446 --> 00:50:49,976
Speaker 2: and we've gotten to be friends and So he's working

1018
00:50:49,996 --> 00:50:53,076
Speaker 2: with me a lot on this project. Brian Chase from

1019
00:50:53,176 --> 00:50:55,356
Speaker 2: Yeah Yeah Yeahs is playing drums on a lot of it.

1020
00:50:56,576 --> 00:50:58,956
Speaker 2: And I think there'll be more people to come as

1021
00:50:59,006 --> 00:51:01,446
Speaker 2: we start adding more musicians. We're kind of like pulling

1022
00:51:01,486 --> 00:51:03,666
Speaker 2: all the tracks into shape at this point.

1023
00:51:03,786 --> 00:51:04,626
Speaker 1: That sounds amazing.

1024
00:51:05,406 --> 00:51:06,866
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think it's going to be really cool.

1025
00:51:06,886 --> 00:51:09,406
Speaker 2: We've got a couple of really killer tracks at the moment.

1026
00:51:09,706 --> 00:51:12,246
Speaker 1: I'm dying to do a music trip down to Brazil.

1027
00:51:12,466 --> 00:51:13,866
Speaker 1: I am dying to do it.

1028
00:51:13,926 --> 00:51:16,366
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's awesome. I've been going there a lot for

1029
00:51:16,386 --> 00:51:19,276
Speaker 2: the last couple, well, up until Pandemic. I was going

1030
00:51:19,296 --> 00:51:22,716
Speaker 2: there a lot, and it's amazing. It's an amazing culture,

1031
00:51:22,756 --> 00:51:25,356
Speaker 2: and the music culture down there is fantastic.

1032
00:51:25,556 --> 00:51:27,636
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, great to meet you, man. Yeah, yeah.

1033
00:51:27,656 --> 00:51:30,496
Speaker 2: It's been really fun talking to you, so let's do

1034
00:51:30,516 --> 00:51:31,276
Speaker 2: it again at some point.

1035
00:51:31,296 --> 00:51:35,816
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it, man. Broken Record is produced and

1036
00:51:35,836 --> 00:51:38,536
Speaker 1: edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler

1037
00:51:38,616 --> 00:51:42,596
Speaker 1: and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Talladay. Broken Record

1038
00:51:42,636 --> 00:51:45,016
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this

1039
00:51:45,076 --> 00:51:48,156
Speaker 1: show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin +.

1040
00:51:48,866 --> 00:51:51,846
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

1041
00:51:51,926 --> 00:51:55,086
Speaker 1: and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 a month. Look for Pushkin

1042
00:51:55,126 --> 00:51:58,536
Speaker 1: Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if you like this show,

1043
00:51:58,656 --> 00:52:00,536
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review us on your

1044
00:52:00,556 --> 00:52:04,016
Speaker 1: podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.