WEBVTT - #035 Jason Flom with Lucinda Hites-Clabaugh 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.840 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.040 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.040 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.600 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.200 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:18.239 I hadn't do anything wrong. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.120 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.720 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.600 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.480 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.199 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.520 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.320 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.360 in that moment, unchecked authority. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.320 Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.400 on TV, because it may just be a dirty da 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:52.320 that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:17.120 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:22.800 Jason Flamm. Today we have a very unique and extraordinary guest, 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:27.280 Lucinda Heights claybaw Lucinda, welcome to the show. Thank you 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:32.039 very much, and Lucinda, you are such an interesting person, 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.000 so strong and yet so little all right, and so 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:41.880 tough and you've been through such a crazy saga. This 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.319 is going to be I think the only episode of 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:52.280 Wrongful Conviction ever that features a transgender marine coming to 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.720 the rescue. And he'll have Mary Poppins making an appearance 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:01.200 as well as a big assist from the Nation. So 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.160 fasten your seat belts because you're in for an interesting 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:08.440 ride today. So, Liscinda, where were you from Originally? 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.960 Well, I was actually born in Columbus, Ohio. My dad 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.960 was in medical school to become a doctor, and my 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.880 mom was a registered nurse. They took off for Colorado 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:20.720 when I was a little toddler. So I grew up 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:21.360 in Colorado. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:22.480 How nice where. 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:27.160 Until I was fourth grade, going fifth grade in Cortes, Colorado, 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.000 the Ute Mountain Ute Indian Reservation, right, So I grew 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.839 up as a little kid skiing, and I also grew 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.240 up watching the Ute kids come in and be forced 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.959 to speak English when they were just preschoolers. And even 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.040 when I was six years old, I thought, Gee, that's 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.120 just wrong for them to slap the hands of those 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.640 kids and make them cry just because they're speaking Ute. 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.920 And so I became a bilingual educator because I got 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.240 that that wasn't okay, that they were hurting kids when 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.720 they were trying to speak their primary language. 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.040 Yeah, that would definitely have an impact on someone, especially 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.720 when you're young. So you channeled it into life and education, 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.520 which is I happened to think, one of the most 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:13.280 noble professions. So you eventually made your way from Colorado 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:14.800 to the Pacific Northwest. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.400 Yeah, I went to Read College. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.360 Great liberal arts school, right, very much so. So you 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.920 end up at Read College in the Northwest and you 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.440 settle up there, and what happened. 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.959 Well, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.320 thought I wanted to be a lawyer. And then I 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.359 stopped a nuclear power plant for a little while from 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.200 coming online. I worked for Ralph Nader's Readers. My job 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.520 was to stop the Trojan nuclear power plant from coming online, 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.520 and I was not successful. But I thought that that 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:45.880 was a personal failure on my part, that I had 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.880 not been able to stop it, and so I was 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.160 really stressed out. I'd been stressed out going to Read 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.560 because it's a real stressful environment. And I came to 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.240 the conclusion that maybe what I needed to do instead 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:01.000 of trying to change politics go into law, maybe I 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.960 needed to work on one on one changing the hearts 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.560 of human beings and the minds of human beings. And 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.800 so I thought, I'll become a counselor, and I will 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.000 do something with the arts, because I love the arts, 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.240 and there must be a way to make that work 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:20.000 with therapy and become a real good counselor. So I 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:23.400 put together a program for performing arts therapy, and then 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.080 I ended up going to New York. So in seventy 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.240 six seventy seven, I came to New York, and I've 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.479 lived in a feminist artist collective, took dance classes with 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:37.200 different dance companies, and choreographed and auditioned all over Broadway. 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.480 And so I got to choreograph, and I got to sing, 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:40.960 and I got to dance, I got to act a 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:41.400 little bit. 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.560 I wouldn't give away your age, but by the story 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.600 that you're telling, obviously you were running around New York 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.919 in the seventies, so you're not as young as you 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.080 once were. But yet she has told me earlier that 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.039 she was out dancing until four o'clock in the morning 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.000 in New York last night. So it's nice to see 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.560 that this entire ordeal has not dimmed your spirit anyway, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:05.720 nor your dancing feet. This is an amazing life that 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:07.320 you led. It's got a little bit of the Great 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:12.760 American novel, traveling all around, going to different places, hitchhiking Broadway, 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:18.120 teaching dancing. Ultimately you end up back in the Pacific Northwest. 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.719 Yeah. I studied at the Dance Notation Bureau here in 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.480 New York. And one of the things I was trained 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.159 in back then, they were using a technique which is 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:31.240 really old, ancient Tibetan chigong. Today they call it tapping. 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:36.000 There's the tapping solution. They call it EFT emotional freedom technique. 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.960 But you use your middle index finger in most of 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.320 the original technique, and you use the chalker points to 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.560 tap for one and a half seconds. You do a 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:49.640 double tap, and it's just on the part that reverberates 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.080 throughout your whole chest and its affecting your lungs. When 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.240 you tap on that spot. People who have PTSD hold 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:03.159 their energy, they hold their fear anger, and they hold 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.120 that breath and they could be holding that breath for 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.400 years and that thought that goes with it and all 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:09.800 the emotions to go with it, and when you tap, 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:15.000 it grounds the person and then suddenly it lets go 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:16.839 and you are connected again. 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:17.520 Wow. 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.400 And it's a healing technique that's been used for thousands 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:22.920 of years by about a third of the world's population 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.040 that understand Eastern medicine. 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.960 Yes, and I'm someone who has benefited from Eastern medicine. 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.880 I was a skeptic and I became a believer. It's 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:36.000 quite extraordinary because I am somebody who's considered myself rooted 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.240 in science and that does come back. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:39.680 To comes back. 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:45.600 Exact you. So you were a healer in various different ways, 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.799 and one of those was a technique, this Eastern technique 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.039 of tapping. It was just demonstrating the studio. You can't 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.440 see it, but sort of tapping below the throat and 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.320 different places and showing me, which is something I didn't 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.920 know about. So it's interesting to learn. But I want 0:06:59.960 --> 0:07:04.560 to get into what happened that took you on such 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.160 a terrible turn in your life. How old were you 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:09.240 when this all happened. 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:10.880 I was fifty fifty one. 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:15.120 So let's jump forward to the time of this incident 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.200 that led to your being wrongfully convicted and sent to prison. 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.080 So what was the school you were teaching at the time. 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.040 I was at Woodburn and I was in an elementary 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.840 school that was a bilingual program, and I am credentialed 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.160 as a bilingual teacher in Spanish and fluent, and I 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:35.400 was substituting, but I'd taken a position I didn't really 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:37.240 want to take. They'd called me and said, no, no, 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.600 you can't teach music. You have to go teach this 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.440 other classroom. We can't find anyone else who will take 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.400 that class. And I thought, oh my god, what is 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.520 wrong with that class that they won't take this class? 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:48.800 The third graders? 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.480 Right, they were a third fourth grade combination. 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:52.720 So how bad could it really be? 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.840 I guess, well, you'd think not. But the fact that 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.040 no other substitute, you know, if nobody else is willing 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.640 to do it, there's something. And so that was kind 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.520 of a red flag. I wish that i'd never had 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.800 taken that class that day. So I went in and 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.560 sure enough, there was a kid who was really horrible 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:16.600 with his behavior. Everybody knew this kid, everybody dealt with 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.880 him all the time. He made life difficult. The poor 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.160 kid had always been kicked out of the classroom for 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.360 his behavior, so he'd never learned to read. And I 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:27.600 was a language development specialist, so I thought, Okay, i've 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.640 had these reading classes. I'll diagnose what's wrong. I'll analyze 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.200 what's wrong, and i'll write it up for the teacher, 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.800 and I'll help this kid out. So I spent some 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.640 time helping this kid, and my focus was pretty much 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.640 on him. And most of the other kids were being 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.800 pretty good, except for this one girl who was like 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.640 a puppy dog fan of this other kid, and she 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.720 would copy everything that he did like an echo, and 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:52.560 if he misbehaved, then she would do the same thing too, 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.400 And she was defying my authority because he was defying 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.840 my authority. Within the first fifteen minutes of the school day, 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.800 she had falsely accused some boys of doing some things 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:04.680 hitting and kicking, and was trying to get him into 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:08.560 trouble deliberately, and the boys were in tears. When it 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.000 came to be recess time, I kept nine kids in 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.840 because they hadn't showed me any work and they'd been 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.880 playing around, and she was one of them, and she 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.680 was mad that she couldn't go to recess, and so 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.120 she was defiant. She refused to do any work. She 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.680 stuck out her powdy lip and you stop, stomp, stomp, 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:32.280 and she started chanting. My training kicked in. It was 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.319 like oh, And then I realized I had to make 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.080 a commitment. This kid has always been passed on, and 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.440 nobody's dealt with her, and nobody's dealt with these other issues. 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:43.280 So what'd you do? So what happened? 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.960 Well after she'd done these things over and over to 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.240 these other kids, I got down on my knees because 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.160 she was sitting at her desk chanting to herself, and 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.000 I just tried to counsel her about being kinder to 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.920 the other students, and she was just chanting and rocking. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.440 And so I went ahead and I said, with my 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.360 finger tapping her on her manubrium, the upper part of 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.640 this jurnam for one and a half seconds, I said, 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.240 you need to change your heart. And she did take 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.240 a breath, as I thought she might. She did, and 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:19.079 in that split second she took another breath. And then 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.400 that's when you go ahead, and then you tap on 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.760 the forehead for one and a half seconds again on 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:28.040 the chalker to integrate the mind, and I said, you 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.679 need to change your mind, because she needed to know 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.560 that she had control over her own healing, and that 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:37.320 she had control of choice. In doing this, and no 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.040 sooner had she done that, But then she went back 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:41.400 to rocking and chanting again. 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.079 When was it that you were first accosted by the authorities? 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.160 Two days later. Two days later, I was in a 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.079 kindergarten classroom in that same school and the regular teacher 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.440 had finally come back. Unfortunately I had not. I'd gone 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.720 to the liaison to get the address and phone number 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.480 so I could go on a home visit, because my 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.600 intention that very first when I had tapped her, was 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.920 to go on the home visit, say hi, I was 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.319 the teacher for your child. Today she had a substitute, 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:08.920 and I just want you to know this is what 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.559 her behavior was today, and this is how I responded 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.000 to it. But I didn't have that opportunity because the 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.800 laison was gone for two days, she was absent, the 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.240 office closed early, so I never went on the home 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.520 visit and had not had the opportunity to go talk 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.920 to them. Meanwhile, the kid had gone home, and I 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.120 don't know what she said to her mom or her 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:32.160 dad exactly, but mom had called DHS, the Department of 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:36.560 Health and Human Services, and said my child has been touched, 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:43.120 and that was interpreted misinterpreted as sexual abuse. It wasn't 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.400 the case, but that's what they said. The girl, when 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.720 the regular teacher came back, had gone on the playground 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.000 and said, the teacher touched me, and that teacher also 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.160 jumped to conclusions and presumed all kinds of things, and 0:11:56.040 --> 0:12:01.640 people did not interpret the gesture accurately. The principal had 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.719 called the counselor and said, I want you to talk 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.560 to this girl, and so the girl had gone to 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:09.960 the counselor. Counselor said, what happened. Can you tell me 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.600 what happened? She said, yes, the teacher touched me like this, 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:19.520 and she showed a very rapid chigong tap. So she 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.280 went back and the counselor said to the principal, there's 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.199 nothing sexual, there's nothing intimate, there's nothing reportable, there's nothing here. 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:31.719 The kid's fine, and the counselor conveyed that, but the 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.400 principle didn't like me, so she said, well, I want 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.480 you to go back and talk to her again. And 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.040 so she called the student in again and said, the 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.440 principal wanted me to talk to you again. Can you 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.720 tell me what happened? And again she showed her the 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:47.839 chigong tap. So three times now she showed her the 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:52.160 same thing and then she said, can you explain that again? 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.440 And she said, yeah, the teacher hit me like this, 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:57.880 and again she showed the same tap, but she used 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.280 the word hit, and well, how do you feel about that? 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.040 And it is like the fourth time she's been told 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:05.480 to think about it again? Are you sure? 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:05.880 You know? 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.040 So they're tainting this witness's testimony, you know, they're starting 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.760 to shape it. It's not being recorded. So her story 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:15.960 had changed just a little bit by being asked four 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:17.800 times and being real, are you sure? Are you sure? 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.960 And we know that any witness will change their story 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.080 if there ask something enough times under enough pressure, But 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.320 when it's a young, impressionable mind like a third grader, 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.120 especially in this particular situation, who has been known to 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:33.320 be an instigator, a troublemaker, or someone who makes up stories, 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:38.400 that's a recipe for disaster. So ultimately she changed her 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:42.719 story to one in which she was touched inappropriately. 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:46.800 Right, that only came about I think once the DA 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.880 had started leading her towards that, or the police had 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.199 started leading her towards that. That was never made clear 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.360 because she had said nothing she had just gestured. She 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.520 did not say a word originally, she just pointed with 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.520 her just string and that then the gesture was misinterpreted 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.520 as a point towards her lower part of her body, 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:08.840 and they say the part that was covered by a 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.559 swimsuit on the bottom of her body, and that then 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.840 was misinterpreted and the DA grabbed that, you know, and 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:18.839 flew with and said do you mean this? And she 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:20.960 was different that she was nodding all the time to 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.280 whatever the DA said, whatever the police said. She just 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:24.120 kept nodding her head. 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.360 Those of us who grew up in the seventies remember 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.200 that there was a whole wave of hysteria that swept 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:37.200 the country where there were numerous cases of schools, daycare 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:41.960 centers and schools for young children where there were reported 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.960 mass sexual abuse or serial sexual abusees and sometimes with 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.680 a satanic overtone. And it turned out that none of 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:51.840 those things were true, but dozens of people went to 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:55.560 prison for these horrible incidents, and so we thought that 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.560 that had been you know, I think the general feeling 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.640 when the public was that that had been something that 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.560 was in era, But obviously it's something that has persisted. 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.600 And you're a perfect example of that. So ultimately they 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:09.200 came and arrested you. 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.000 Yeah, they came to the school and they started to 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.000 interrogate me, and I had never been treated like that 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.760 in my life. And they'd use the read technique where 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.200 the ones on the far side of your peripheral vision 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.640 on one side and the other ones on the other 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.720 side of your purfle vision, and they literally make you dizzy, 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.360 going back and forth so quickly with harsh questions that 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.800 you start to answer and then the other one comes 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:37.000 in and interrupts and they really disorient you. It was 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:41.320 really upsetting. You know, I'm being treated really horribly, and 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.440 I just can't imagine where these people are coming from. 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.480 And then it saiding, no, no, you are being accused, 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.480 and I went what And my jaw dropped, and I said, 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.680 you've got to be kidding, You've got you know. I 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.080 couldn't believe it. They weren't kidding, No, they weren't. And 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:55.840 that's the thing is, you go, oh my gosh, these 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:56.640 guys are serious. 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.280 So ultimately, these things we know, gained a certain terrifying 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:05.000 momentum of their own, and once you get caught in 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.480 the system, even someone like you who's highly educated and 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.240 able to understand what's going on. Even still, once the 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.440 gears start turning and someone's caught in them, there's really 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.120 very little chance of getting out. I mean, we weren't 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.760 a wealthy person who could hire, you know, the dream team. 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.440 But nonetheless, you were perfectly capable of understanding the situation 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.480 and defending yourself, and you knew that this was an 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:32.960 absurd situation. But nonetheless, you go to trial. You were 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.040 offered a plea, which I think is an important part 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:35.960 of the story, right. 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:37.880 I mean, well, they offered it, but I said no, 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.160 I I was a quicker, and I said, I'm not 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.720 about to say I did something I didn't do. So 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:43.520 I went to prison. 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.160 So they offered you a plea. It's important to note 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.800 that in America, ninety five or ninety six percent of 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:56.040 felony convictions are the results of plea bargains, because people 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.600 in your situation look at it and go, well, especially 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.200 if you're get you're gonna go, well, I'm gonna take 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:02.520 the best deal I can get, and the best thing 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.120 you can get is a lot better than the worst one, 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.360 And they make that very clear to you. And if 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.920 you're innocent. Even still, many people in your situation would 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.159 have taken the deal because you can see what's going on. 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.119 You can see you're being railroaded. You can see that 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.400 your chances of winning when everybody's suddenly out to get 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.639 you are slim to none. So a lot of innocent people, 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.159 tragically in this country end up taking a plea. So 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.000 it says something, not everything, but it says something when 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.240 somebody in your situation says, I'm going to take a 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.320 chance on a seventy five month sentence instead of taking 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.639 what let's call it a relatively light sentence, because you 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.119 wanted to stand up for what you knew was true, 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:42.280 which is that you were innocent. 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.159 Actually, it's because of my naivete though. I just didn't 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.520 know what the system was like when you're in it, 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.240 and I think most people in America think it's like 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.359 Law and Order on TV or something. But the reality 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.359 was I was naive enough to believe that I would 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.600 be able to just present all of my proof of 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.960 actual innocence, that they would investigate adequately, which they did not, 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:04.080 and that I would be able to have all the 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.720 proof of my innocence just right there, and so that 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.280 I wouldn't be going to prison because I was a 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.399 good person. I hadn't done anything wrong, and I didn't 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.960 think that they would actually be able to do anything 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:16.240 because I knew I hadn't done a thing that was criminal. 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.800 Not only that, but there was also a total lack 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:23.919 of any physical evidence against you. And basically you're so, 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.480 I mean, you were convicted on the testimony, which isn't 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:29.760 even really testimony, but you were convicted on a wild 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.720 accusation made by a third grader. That's basically it. And 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.080 then these uh, over, let's be polite and call it 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.720 over zealous law enforcement people who decided to just take 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.480 that theory which they had actually coerced from this child, 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.320 and then turned it into a case that some of 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.960 them maybe could make their reputation on or else they 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.960 just were who knows, they're just doing their jobs, right, 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:52.600 So no. 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.480 I think that she was overly ambitious. The Dada was 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.200 extremely overly ambitious. 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.119 So let's go to the trial. So you go to trial, well, 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.119 and at this point it must be becoming more and 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:09.320 more surreal. This whole experience. You who's lived a would 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.880 call it a virtuous life, helping people in so many 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:18.280 different ways. SKI Patrol teaching counselings, mission work, and now 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.719 all of a sudden you're being accused of a crime 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.880 that is, you know, certainly one of the last things 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:25.359 in the world that anybody would ever want to be 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.480 accused of. So you go to trial. Did you believe 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:30.880 when you went to trial that the truth would come out? 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.719 And I did. I was notive enough to believe that, 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.399 And all of my friends were also naive enough to 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.440 believe that, and they kept believing in the system. Everybody 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.399 wants to believe in the system. We are taught to 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:43.280 believe in the system. We want to believe it works 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.919 for us. I still do well. And the problem is 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.800 the problem is is that you can't count if the 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.359 d's are being trained to come out of law school 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.360 and go in to be deceitful, and they see that 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:57.600 the goal is not to seek the truth, the whole truth, 0:19:57.600 --> 0:19:59.679 and nothing but the truth will help you God. But 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:03.239 they actually think that it's an adversarial system. And that 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.480 was brought home because the counselor, bless her, the counselor 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.440 went to the DA. Later on, she went to the 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.639 DA's office and she heard that the ten to two verdict, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:16.159 you know, was against me that I was going to 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.680 go to prison. So she went to the DA and said, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.439 I have information about this kid that didn't get to 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.560 be heard by the court. Nobody had ever heard what 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:26.800 had happened that I just told you about, you know, 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.720 the tapping. Nobody had heard that because the DA had maneuvered. 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:32.920 So nobody got to hear a whole classroom of kids 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.639 as affidavit witnesses alby witnesses that nothing had happened. Nobody 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:41.080 got to hear the licensed investigator for the licensure who 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.040 had heard that the kid hadn't said a word. All 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:45.960 this was covered up by the DA. The DA was 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.680 so despicable that she had the Assistant Attorney General for 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.159 the State of Oregon put a quash to suppress the 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.359