Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.
Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be
Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,
Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't
Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.
Speaker 2: I hadn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when
Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,
Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one
Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected
Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the
Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.
Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,
Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.
Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them
Speaker 2: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da
Speaker 2: that is trying to rise upward.
Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 3: Jason Flamm. Today we have a very unique and extraordinary guest,
Speaker 3: Lucinda Heights claybaw Lucinda, welcome to the show. Thank you
Speaker 3: very much, and Lucinda, you are such an interesting person,
Speaker 3: so strong and yet so little all right, and so
Speaker 3: tough and you've been through such a crazy saga. This
Speaker 3: is going to be I think the only episode of
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction ever that features a transgender marine coming to
Speaker 3: the rescue. And he'll have Mary Poppins making an appearance
Speaker 3: as well as a big assist from the Nation. So
Speaker 3: fasten your seat belts because you're in for an interesting
Speaker 3: ride today. So, Liscinda, where were you from Originally?
Speaker 2: Well, I was actually born in Columbus, Ohio. My dad
Speaker 2: was in medical school to become a doctor, and my
Speaker 2: mom was a registered nurse. They took off for Colorado
Speaker 2: when I was a little toddler. So I grew up
Speaker 2: in Colorado.
Speaker 3: How nice where.
Speaker 2: Until I was fourth grade, going fifth grade in Cortes, Colorado,
Speaker 2: the Ute Mountain Ute Indian Reservation, right, So I grew
Speaker 2: up as a little kid skiing, and I also grew
Speaker 2: up watching the Ute kids come in and be forced
Speaker 2: to speak English when they were just preschoolers. And even
Speaker 2: when I was six years old, I thought, Gee, that's
Speaker 2: just wrong for them to slap the hands of those
Speaker 2: kids and make them cry just because they're speaking Ute.
Speaker 2: And so I became a bilingual educator because I got
Speaker 2: that that wasn't okay, that they were hurting kids when
Speaker 2: they were trying to speak their primary language.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would definitely have an impact on someone, especially
Speaker 3: when you're young. So you channeled it into life and education,
Speaker 3: which is I happened to think, one of the most
Speaker 3: noble professions. So you eventually made your way from Colorado
Speaker 3: to the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to Read College.
Speaker 3: Great liberal arts school, right, very much so. So you
Speaker 3: end up at Read College in the Northwest and you
Speaker 3: settle up there, and what happened.
Speaker 2: Well, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then
Speaker 2: thought I wanted to be a lawyer. And then I
Speaker 2: stopped a nuclear power plant for a little while from
Speaker 2: coming online. I worked for Ralph Nader's Readers. My job
Speaker 2: was to stop the Trojan nuclear power plant from coming online,
Speaker 2: and I was not successful. But I thought that that
Speaker 2: was a personal failure on my part, that I had
Speaker 2: not been able to stop it, and so I was
Speaker 2: really stressed out. I'd been stressed out going to Read
Speaker 2: because it's a real stressful environment. And I came to
Speaker 2: the conclusion that maybe what I needed to do instead
Speaker 2: of trying to change politics go into law, maybe I
Speaker 2: needed to work on one on one changing the hearts
Speaker 2: of human beings and the minds of human beings. And
Speaker 2: so I thought, I'll become a counselor, and I will
Speaker 2: do something with the arts, because I love the arts,
Speaker 2: and there must be a way to make that work
Speaker 2: with therapy and become a real good counselor. So I
Speaker 2: put together a program for performing arts therapy, and then
Speaker 2: I ended up going to New York. So in seventy
Speaker 2: six seventy seven, I came to New York, and I've
Speaker 2: lived in a feminist artist collective, took dance classes with
Speaker 2: different dance companies, and choreographed and auditioned all over Broadway.
Speaker 2: And so I got to choreograph, and I got to sing,
Speaker 2: and I got to dance, I got to act a
Speaker 2: little bit.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't give away your age, but by the story
Speaker 3: that you're telling, obviously you were running around New York
Speaker 3: in the seventies, so you're not as young as you
Speaker 3: once were. But yet she has told me earlier that
Speaker 3: she was out dancing until four o'clock in the morning
Speaker 3: in New York last night. So it's nice to see
Speaker 3: that this entire ordeal has not dimmed your spirit anyway,
Speaker 3: nor your dancing feet. This is an amazing life that
Speaker 3: you led. It's got a little bit of the Great
Speaker 3: American novel, traveling all around, going to different places, hitchhiking Broadway,
Speaker 3: teaching dancing. Ultimately you end up back in the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I studied at the Dance Notation Bureau here in
Speaker 2: New York. And one of the things I was trained
Speaker 2: in back then, they were using a technique which is
Speaker 2: really old, ancient Tibetan chigong. Today they call it tapping.
Speaker 2: There's the tapping solution. They call it EFT emotional freedom technique.
Speaker 2: But you use your middle index finger in most of
Speaker 2: the original technique, and you use the chalker points to
Speaker 2: tap for one and a half seconds. You do a
Speaker 2: double tap, and it's just on the part that reverberates
Speaker 2: throughout your whole chest and its affecting your lungs. When
Speaker 2: you tap on that spot. People who have PTSD hold
Speaker 2: their energy, they hold their fear anger, and they hold
Speaker 2: that breath and they could be holding that breath for
Speaker 2: years and that thought that goes with it and all
Speaker 2: the emotions to go with it, and when you tap,
Speaker 2: it grounds the person and then suddenly it lets go
Speaker 2: and you are connected again.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: And it's a healing technique that's been used for thousands
Speaker 2: of years by about a third of the world's population
Speaker 2: that understand Eastern medicine.
Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm someone who has benefited from Eastern medicine.
Speaker 3: I was a skeptic and I became a believer. It's
Speaker 3: quite extraordinary because I am somebody who's considered myself rooted
Speaker 3: in science and that does come back.
Speaker 2: To comes back.
Speaker 3: Exact you. So you were a healer in various different ways,
Speaker 3: and one of those was a technique, this Eastern technique
Speaker 3: of tapping. It was just demonstrating the studio. You can't
Speaker 3: see it, but sort of tapping below the throat and
Speaker 3: different places and showing me, which is something I didn't
Speaker 3: know about. So it's interesting to learn. But I want
Speaker 3: to get into what happened that took you on such
Speaker 3: a terrible turn in your life. How old were you
Speaker 3: when this all happened.
Speaker 2: I was fifty fifty one.
Speaker 3: So let's jump forward to the time of this incident
Speaker 3: that led to your being wrongfully convicted and sent to prison.
Speaker 3: So what was the school you were teaching at the time.
Speaker 2: I was at Woodburn and I was in an elementary
Speaker 2: school that was a bilingual program, and I am credentialed
Speaker 2: as a bilingual teacher in Spanish and fluent, and I
Speaker 2: was substituting, but I'd taken a position I didn't really
Speaker 2: want to take. They'd called me and said, no, no,
Speaker 2: you can't teach music. You have to go teach this
Speaker 2: other classroom. We can't find anyone else who will take
Speaker 2: that class. And I thought, oh my god, what is
Speaker 2: wrong with that class that they won't take this class?
Speaker 3: The third graders?
Speaker 2: Right, they were a third fourth grade combination.
Speaker 3: So how bad could it really be?
Speaker 2: I guess, well, you'd think not. But the fact that
Speaker 2: no other substitute, you know, if nobody else is willing
Speaker 2: to do it, there's something. And so that was kind
Speaker 2: of a red flag. I wish that i'd never had
Speaker 2: taken that class that day. So I went in and
Speaker 2: sure enough, there was a kid who was really horrible
Speaker 2: with his behavior. Everybody knew this kid, everybody dealt with
Speaker 2: him all the time. He made life difficult. The poor
Speaker 2: kid had always been kicked out of the classroom for
Speaker 2: his behavior, so he'd never learned to read. And I
Speaker 2: was a language development specialist, so I thought, Okay, i've
Speaker 2: had these reading classes. I'll diagnose what's wrong. I'll analyze
Speaker 2: what's wrong, and i'll write it up for the teacher,
Speaker 2: and I'll help this kid out. So I spent some
Speaker 2: time helping this kid, and my focus was pretty much
Speaker 2: on him. And most of the other kids were being
Speaker 2: pretty good, except for this one girl who was like
Speaker 2: a puppy dog fan of this other kid, and she
Speaker 2: would copy everything that he did like an echo, and
Speaker 2: if he misbehaved, then she would do the same thing too,
Speaker 2: And she was defying my authority because he was defying
Speaker 2: my authority. Within the first fifteen minutes of the school day,
Speaker 2: she had falsely accused some boys of doing some things
Speaker 2: hitting and kicking, and was trying to get him into
Speaker 2: trouble deliberately, and the boys were in tears. When it
Speaker 2: came to be recess time, I kept nine kids in
Speaker 2: because they hadn't showed me any work and they'd been
Speaker 2: playing around, and she was one of them, and she
Speaker 2: was mad that she couldn't go to recess, and so
Speaker 2: she was defiant. She refused to do any work. She
Speaker 2: stuck out her powdy lip and you stop, stomp, stomp,
Speaker 2: and she started chanting. My training kicked in. It was
Speaker 2: like oh, And then I realized I had to make
Speaker 2: a commitment. This kid has always been passed on, and
Speaker 2: nobody's dealt with her, and nobody's dealt with these other issues.
Speaker 3: So what'd you do? So what happened?
Speaker 2: Well after she'd done these things over and over to
Speaker 2: these other kids, I got down on my knees because
Speaker 2: she was sitting at her desk chanting to herself, and
Speaker 2: I just tried to counsel her about being kinder to
Speaker 2: the other students, and she was just chanting and rocking.
Speaker 2: And so I went ahead and I said, with my
Speaker 2: finger tapping her on her manubrium, the upper part of
Speaker 2: this jurnam for one and a half seconds, I said,
Speaker 2: you need to change your heart. And she did take
Speaker 2: a breath, as I thought she might. She did, and
Speaker 2: in that split second she took another breath. And then
Speaker 2: that's when you go ahead, and then you tap on
Speaker 2: the forehead for one and a half seconds again on
Speaker 2: the chalker to integrate the mind, and I said, you
Speaker 2: need to change your mind, because she needed to know
Speaker 2: that she had control over her own healing, and that
Speaker 2: she had control of choice. In doing this, and no
Speaker 2: sooner had she done that, But then she went back
Speaker 2: to rocking and chanting again.
Speaker 3: When was it that you were first accosted by the authorities?
Speaker 2: Two days later. Two days later, I was in a
Speaker 2: kindergarten classroom in that same school and the regular teacher
Speaker 2: had finally come back. Unfortunately I had not. I'd gone
Speaker 2: to the liaison to get the address and phone number
Speaker 2: so I could go on a home visit, because my
Speaker 2: intention that very first when I had tapped her, was
Speaker 2: to go on the home visit, say hi, I was
Speaker 2: the teacher for your child. Today she had a substitute,
Speaker 2: and I just want you to know this is what
Speaker 2: her behavior was today, and this is how I responded
Speaker 2: to it. But I didn't have that opportunity because the
Speaker 2: laison was gone for two days, she was absent, the
Speaker 2: office closed early, so I never went on the home
Speaker 2: visit and had not had the opportunity to go talk
Speaker 2: to them. Meanwhile, the kid had gone home, and I
Speaker 2: don't know what she said to her mom or her
Speaker 2: dad exactly, but mom had called DHS, the Department of
Speaker 2: Health and Human Services, and said my child has been touched,
Speaker 2: and that was interpreted misinterpreted as sexual abuse. It wasn't
Speaker 2: the case, but that's what they said. The girl, when
Speaker 2: the regular teacher came back, had gone on the playground
Speaker 2: and said, the teacher touched me, and that teacher also
Speaker 2: jumped to conclusions and presumed all kinds of things, and
Speaker 2: people did not interpret the gesture accurately. The principal had
Speaker 2: called the counselor and said, I want you to talk
Speaker 2: to this girl, and so the girl had gone to
Speaker 2: the counselor. Counselor said, what happened. Can you tell me
Speaker 2: what happened? She said, yes, the teacher touched me like this,
Speaker 2: and she showed a very rapid chigong tap. So she
Speaker 2: went back and the counselor said to the principal, there's
Speaker 2: nothing sexual, there's nothing intimate, there's nothing reportable, there's nothing here.
Speaker 2: The kid's fine, and the counselor conveyed that, but the
Speaker 2: principle didn't like me, so she said, well, I want
Speaker 2: you to go back and talk to her again. And
Speaker 2: so she called the student in again and said, the
Speaker 2: principal wanted me to talk to you again. Can you
Speaker 2: tell me what happened? And again she showed her the
Speaker 2: chigong tap. So three times now she showed her the
Speaker 2: same thing and then she said, can you explain that again?
Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, the teacher hit me like this,
Speaker 2: and again she showed the same tap, but she used
Speaker 2: the word hit, and well, how do you feel about that?
Speaker 2: And it is like the fourth time she's been told
Speaker 2: to think about it again? Are you sure?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: So they're tainting this witness's testimony, you know, they're starting
Speaker 2: to shape it. It's not being recorded. So her story
Speaker 2: had changed just a little bit by being asked four
Speaker 2: times and being real, are you sure? Are you sure?
Speaker 3: And we know that any witness will change their story
Speaker 3: if there ask something enough times under enough pressure, But
Speaker 3: when it's a young, impressionable mind like a third grader,
Speaker 3: especially in this particular situation, who has been known to
Speaker 3: be an instigator, a troublemaker, or someone who makes up stories,
Speaker 3: that's a recipe for disaster. So ultimately she changed her
Speaker 3: story to one in which she was touched inappropriately.
Speaker 2: Right, that only came about I think once the DA
Speaker 2: had started leading her towards that, or the police had
Speaker 2: started leading her towards that. That was never made clear
Speaker 2: because she had said nothing she had just gestured. She
Speaker 2: did not say a word originally, she just pointed with
Speaker 2: her just string and that then the gesture was misinterpreted
Speaker 2: as a point towards her lower part of her body,
Speaker 2: and they say the part that was covered by a
Speaker 2: swimsuit on the bottom of her body, and that then
Speaker 2: was misinterpreted and the DA grabbed that, you know, and
Speaker 2: flew with and said do you mean this? And she
Speaker 2: was different that she was nodding all the time to
Speaker 2: whatever the DA said, whatever the police said. She just
Speaker 2: kept nodding her head.
Speaker 3: Those of us who grew up in the seventies remember
Speaker 3: that there was a whole wave of hysteria that swept
Speaker 3: the country where there were numerous cases of schools, daycare
Speaker 3: centers and schools for young children where there were reported
Speaker 3: mass sexual abuse or serial sexual abusees and sometimes with
Speaker 3: a satanic overtone. And it turned out that none of
Speaker 3: those things were true, but dozens of people went to
Speaker 3: prison for these horrible incidents, and so we thought that
Speaker 3: that had been you know, I think the general feeling
Speaker 3: when the public was that that had been something that
Speaker 3: was in era, But obviously it's something that has persisted.
Speaker 3: And you're a perfect example of that. So ultimately they
Speaker 3: came and arrested you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they came to the school and they started to
Speaker 2: interrogate me, and I had never been treated like that
Speaker 2: in my life. And they'd use the read technique where
Speaker 2: the ones on the far side of your peripheral vision
Speaker 2: on one side and the other ones on the other
Speaker 2: side of your purfle vision, and they literally make you dizzy,
Speaker 2: going back and forth so quickly with harsh questions that
Speaker 2: you start to answer and then the other one comes
Speaker 2: in and interrupts and they really disorient you. It was
Speaker 2: really upsetting. You know, I'm being treated really horribly, and
Speaker 2: I just can't imagine where these people are coming from.
Speaker 2: And then it saiding, no, no, you are being accused,
Speaker 2: and I went what And my jaw dropped, and I said,
Speaker 2: you've got to be kidding, You've got you know. I
Speaker 2: couldn't believe it. They weren't kidding, No, they weren't. And
Speaker 2: that's the thing is, you go, oh my gosh, these
Speaker 2: guys are serious.
Speaker 3: So ultimately, these things we know, gained a certain terrifying
Speaker 3: momentum of their own, and once you get caught in
Speaker 3: the system, even someone like you who's highly educated and
Speaker 3: able to understand what's going on. Even still, once the
Speaker 3: gears start turning and someone's caught in them, there's really
Speaker 3: very little chance of getting out. I mean, we weren't
Speaker 3: a wealthy person who could hire, you know, the dream team.
Speaker 3: But nonetheless, you were perfectly capable of understanding the situation
Speaker 3: and defending yourself, and you knew that this was an
Speaker 3: absurd situation. But nonetheless, you go to trial. You were
Speaker 3: offered a plea, which I think is an important part
Speaker 3: of the story, right.
Speaker 2: I mean, well, they offered it, but I said no,
Speaker 2: I I was a quicker, and I said, I'm not
Speaker 2: about to say I did something I didn't do. So
Speaker 2: I went to prison.
Speaker 3: So they offered you a plea. It's important to note
Speaker 3: that in America, ninety five or ninety six percent of
Speaker 3: felony convictions are the results of plea bargains, because people
Speaker 3: in your situation look at it and go, well, especially
Speaker 3: if you're get you're gonna go, well, I'm gonna take
Speaker 3: the best deal I can get, and the best thing
Speaker 3: you can get is a lot better than the worst one,
Speaker 3: And they make that very clear to you. And if
Speaker 3: you're innocent. Even still, many people in your situation would
Speaker 3: have taken the deal because you can see what's going on.
Speaker 3: You can see you're being railroaded. You can see that
Speaker 3: your chances of winning when everybody's suddenly out to get
Speaker 3: you are slim to none. So a lot of innocent people,
Speaker 3: tragically in this country end up taking a plea. So
Speaker 3: it says something, not everything, but it says something when
Speaker 3: somebody in your situation says, I'm going to take a
Speaker 3: chance on a seventy five month sentence instead of taking
Speaker 3: what let's call it a relatively light sentence, because you
Speaker 3: wanted to stand up for what you knew was true,
Speaker 3: which is that you were innocent.
Speaker 2: Actually, it's because of my naivete though. I just didn't
Speaker 2: know what the system was like when you're in it,
Speaker 2: and I think most people in America think it's like
Speaker 2: Law and Order on TV or something. But the reality
Speaker 2: was I was naive enough to believe that I would
Speaker 2: be able to just present all of my proof of
Speaker 2: actual innocence, that they would investigate adequately, which they did not,
Speaker 2: and that I would be able to have all the
Speaker 2: proof of my innocence just right there, and so that
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be going to prison because I was a
Speaker 2: good person. I hadn't done anything wrong, and I didn't
Speaker 2: think that they would actually be able to do anything
Speaker 2: because I knew I hadn't done a thing that was criminal.
Speaker 3: Not only that, but there was also a total lack
Speaker 3: of any physical evidence against you. And basically you're so,
Speaker 3: I mean, you were convicted on the testimony, which isn't
Speaker 3: even really testimony, but you were convicted on a wild
Speaker 3: accusation made by a third grader. That's basically it. And
Speaker 3: then these uh, over, let's be polite and call it
Speaker 3: over zealous law enforcement people who decided to just take
Speaker 3: that theory which they had actually coerced from this child,
Speaker 3: and then turned it into a case that some of
Speaker 3: them maybe could make their reputation on or else they
Speaker 3: just were who knows, they're just doing their jobs, right,
Speaker 3: So no.
Speaker 2: I think that she was overly ambitious. The Dada was
Speaker 2: extremely overly ambitious.
Speaker 3: So let's go to the trial. So you go to trial, well,
Speaker 3: and at this point it must be becoming more and
Speaker 3: more surreal. This whole experience. You who's lived a would
Speaker 3: call it a virtuous life, helping people in so many
Speaker 3: different ways. SKI Patrol teaching counselings, mission work, and now
Speaker 3: all of a sudden you're being accused of a crime
Speaker 3: that is, you know, certainly one of the last things
Speaker 3: in the world that anybody would ever want to be
Speaker 3: accused of. So you go to trial. Did you believe
Speaker 3: when you went to trial that the truth would come out?
Speaker 2: And I did. I was notive enough to believe that,
Speaker 2: And all of my friends were also naive enough to
Speaker 2: believe that, and they kept believing in the system. Everybody
Speaker 2: wants to believe in the system. We are taught to
Speaker 2: believe in the system. We want to believe it works
Speaker 2: for us. I still do well. And the problem is
Speaker 2: the problem is is that you can't count if the
Speaker 2: d's are being trained to come out of law school
Speaker 2: and go in to be deceitful, and they see that
Speaker 2: the goal is not to seek the truth, the whole truth,
Speaker 2: and nothing but the truth will help you God. But
Speaker 2: they actually think that it's an adversarial system. And that
Speaker 2: was brought home because the counselor, bless her, the counselor
Speaker 2: went to the DA. Later on, she went to the
Speaker 2: DA's office and she heard that the ten to two verdict,
Speaker 2: you know, was against me that I was going to
Speaker 2: go to prison. So she went to the DA and said,
Speaker 2: I have information about this kid that didn't get to
Speaker 2: be heard by the court. Nobody had ever heard what
Speaker 2: had happened that I just told you about, you know,
Speaker 2: the tapping. Nobody had heard that because the DA had maneuvered.
Speaker 2: So nobody got to hear a whole classroom of kids
Speaker 2: as affidavit witnesses alby witnesses that nothing had happened. Nobody
Speaker 2: got to hear the licensed investigator for the licensure who
Speaker 2: had heard that the kid hadn't said a word. All
Speaker 2: this was covered up by the DA. The DA was
Speaker 2: so despicable that she had the Assistant Attorney General for
Speaker 2: the State of Oregon put a quash to suppress the
Speaker 2: investigator from testifying as a witness. Why would she do
Speaker 2: that except she was covering her own rear end And
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that she would do that. She would
Speaker 2: be so despicable as to not seek truth. That it
Speaker 2: was supposed to be a seeking process, I thought. And
Speaker 2: in reality, we've deteriorated to a point where there isn't justice.
Speaker 2: All you get is people wanting to have a conviction
Speaker 2: and wanting to do whatever it takes to get that conviction,
Speaker 2: to help with the truth. You know, they didn't care,
Speaker 2: and the DA's office said to the counselor, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: we aren't interested in taking your information. We're the ones
Speaker 2: trying to convict her. The counselor, I had to go
Speaker 2: the judge directly, and that changed the course of everything
Speaker 2: for me, because suddenly there was new evidence. There was
Speaker 2: evidence of my actual innocence. I'd already been convicted ten
Speaker 2: to two. And this woman was finally coming forward because
Speaker 2: she'd been told by the school district not to go
Speaker 2: and talk to anybody, not to say anything. That they
Speaker 2: didn't ask her. Well, I had such an inept attorney
Speaker 2: that incompetent that they had not asked the questions. I said,
Speaker 2: you need to ask you this question, but they didn't.
Speaker 2: So finally she was coming forward on her own. The
Speaker 2: DA wouldn't take her statement. She went to the judge
Speaker 2: and she wrote out a statement. She's talked to him
Speaker 2: for an hour and said, yes, I swear that this
Speaker 2: is you know I will speak.
Speaker 3: This is after you were convicted, after.
Speaker 2: I was convicted, tend to do so.
Speaker 3: This is during the sentencing phase. Yes, let's go back
Speaker 3: to this second. First of all, this tragic wul happened
Speaker 3: to you, But it's also sad because this child, who
Speaker 3: was obviously a troubled child in the first place, also
Speaker 3: is now caught up in this. I mean, who knows
Speaker 3: what she ends up believing, whether this actually happened or
Speaker 3: not or whatever. And who wants to go through that
Speaker 3: process and be a subject of such a highly publicized
Speaker 3: and politicized event around your own sexuality when you're a child.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just it's all very distasteful and disgusting
Speaker 3: if you think about it. So you're convicted ultimately and sentenced.
Speaker 2: To what mandatory minimum in Oregon is six years, three months.
Speaker 3: Seventy five months in prison, right, seventy five months. That's
Speaker 3: that's a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you actually hadn't done anything.
Speaker 3: Done anything. I hadn't done anything ever.
Speaker 2: And also was trying to help, you know, because I
Speaker 2: was I was trying to help a kid. I understood,
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm sure other people you know, served
Speaker 2: a lot longer, but you know, I went in I
Speaker 2: was a girl scout, I was a goodie two shoes,
Speaker 2: I was a Quaker and.
Speaker 3: You were in your fifties and you were.
Speaker 2: A mom, and I was an old, grandma, aged person. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so yeah, it was It was not the lifestyle I
Speaker 2: was used to.
Speaker 3: So let's let's talk about that, because you have a
Speaker 3: remarkable story of having survived in a what would look
Speaker 3: to be an impossible situation when you went to prison.
Speaker 3: Here you are, You're a fish out of water to
Speaker 3: start with, and on top of that, you're a convicted
Speaker 3: sex offender, which is a terrible thing to be in
Speaker 3: that environment. So how did you get through it? I mean,
Speaker 3: you're you're not a big strong woman, right.
Speaker 2: That was the second smallest woman in prison, right, I
Speaker 2: weigh ninety five pounds wet. Yeah. So I went in
Speaker 2: and I knew that God knew that I was innocent,
Speaker 2: and I knew eventually, I wasn't sure why I was there.
Speaker 2: At first I was upset, but then it was like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I'm here not because God put me here. I'm here
Speaker 2: because a little girl was very confused and lied and
Speaker 2: has real mental troubles and emotional troubles. So I just
Speaker 2: prayed to have some direction, to try to see beauty
Speaker 2: every day, try to see goodness, try to see some
Speaker 2: kindness and try to be that for other people. I
Speaker 2: came to that realization that I had to be that
Speaker 2: for other people. I couldn't just want it for myself,
Speaker 2: because it's a real hell hole when you're put in
Speaker 2: prison and people have no idea that could be a
Speaker 2: whole program onto itself. It's a hell hole. So you
Speaker 2: have to create God within there. You have to be
Speaker 2: God within there. You have to be the goodness. You
Speaker 2: have to be the beauty. You have to be the kindness.
Speaker 2: You have to live it, you have to emanate it,
Speaker 2: you have to create it.
Speaker 3: But ultimately you need more than that.
Speaker 2: Well, in the miracles, in the form of my marine,
Speaker 2: I was in choir. I chose to go to every
Speaker 2: church service that existed that they would let me get
Speaker 2: into my schedule. So I went to the Mormon choir
Speaker 2: for women. And behind me, sitting in the Mormon choir
Speaker 2: was this base voice. And I turned around and it
Speaker 2: was a transgendered marine six foot three or four size
Speaker 2: thirteen shoe big fellow who was now a woman, and
Speaker 2: she protected me. She had been in the military, and
Speaker 2: she would walk around the yard with me and growl,
Speaker 2: people who are giving me our time, and she was wonderful.
Speaker 2: She's still writes me every week to this day.
Speaker 3: I'm picturing this tiny little Lucinda walking around with the
Speaker 3: transgender marine, growling at people, and the whole scene is
Speaker 3: sort of surreal. Of getting a great visual here. So
Speaker 3: you found your protector.
Speaker 2: I found somebody who took care of me between a
Speaker 2: year and a half two years that I was in there,
Speaker 2: and that was really wonderful. When she left, she was released,
Speaker 2: I really had to really pray then that I would
Speaker 2: have the armor of God for protection, that there would
Speaker 2: be guardian angels to protect me, that somehow that I
Speaker 2: could be protected.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about Mary Poppins, because Mary Poppins is not
Speaker 3: part of a lot of wrongful conviction stories.
Speaker 2: The reason I was singing Mary Poppins in the county
Speaker 2: jail when I was first arrested. I had never been
Speaker 2: in prison in my life, and so I had no
Speaker 2: idea what to expect. And it was a long time.
Speaker 2: You're in there for six hours and more, you know,
Speaker 2: just waiting, you know, for my bail to come through
Speaker 2: that very first time, and I realized that I needed
Speaker 2: to just start doing something positive so I wouldn't feel
Speaker 2: so depressed, and so I started singing all of the
Speaker 2: songs from Mary Poppins because I knew him by heart.
Speaker 2: And this a woman came in who was in there
Speaker 2: for drug charges, and you know, she was kind of
Speaker 2: out of it for a while, and then she said,
Speaker 2: she said, honey, you need to not do that anymore.
Speaker 2: I said what, And she goes, you have a nice voice,
Speaker 2: you know, but but you need to not sing like that.
Speaker 2: And I said why, I don't understand, and she goes, well,
Speaker 2: you're too happy. You're too damn happy. People in prisoner
Speaker 2: are kind of unhappy and messed up, and they're going
Speaker 2: to want to kill you if you sing any more
Speaker 2: of those you know, a spoonful of sugar.
Speaker 3: So you survived with your faith and you're a guardian angel.
Speaker 3: What was your marine.
Speaker 2: Friend's name, Sandra Soho?
Speaker 3: So, Sandra Soho So.
Speaker 2: She's now Reverend Sandra Soho.
Speaker 3: After sand Soho was released, How did you manage to
Speaker 3: build up this armor and steal yourself against these people
Speaker 3: who are out to get really out to get you.
Speaker 2: Well, before I was put in prison, I was an
Speaker 2: AVP Alternatives to Violence Project facilitator that's a Quaker program
Speaker 2: where they put half guards and have inmates together and
Speaker 2: teach about transformational power. They teach about love and being
Speaker 2: willing to be vulnerable and surrender and by breathing through
Speaker 2: not being afraid, breathing through fear, that you get through
Speaker 2: fear and then you are vulnerable. But there actually is
Speaker 2: a certain amount of miraculous power, transformational power that can
Speaker 2: come to you. And sometimes I had that experience. Other
Speaker 2: times no, but I did have people coming up to
Speaker 2: me ready to punch me and stab me and things,
Speaker 2: and I would pray and say, you know, friend, I
Speaker 2: have absolutely no ill will towards you. You are welcome
Speaker 2: to read my affidavits. My attorney says, you can read
Speaker 2: all about my case so you can see that for
Speaker 2: yourself that I'm innocent, that I never would ever harm anyone,
Speaker 2: and am I have no desire to harm you, and
Speaker 2: I have no desire to do anything that it would
Speaker 2: be disrespectful to you. And in one case, the woman
Speaker 2: just stopped in her tracks about three and a half
Speaker 2: feet from me, and you could just see her body
Speaker 2: expression and her body relax and she sat down and
Speaker 2: she I said, would you like to read my affidavit?
Speaker 2: She said, I don't need to.
Speaker 3: So that was a very serendipitous. Yeah, situation, the fact
Speaker 3: that you had this training in defusing exactly the situation
Speaker 3: that ironically found yourself in. So there was a you
Speaker 3: had more than one guardian angel, as it turns out.
Speaker 3: And how important was the support of the Quaker community.
Speaker 3: Were you getting letters, were you getting positive affirmation from people?
Speaker 3: And what did that mean to you?
Speaker 2: Laring this time, Well, everybody who's out in the outside
Speaker 2: world should right to end inmate. I don't think people
Speaker 2: appreciate how important it is. It's like Christmas, you realize
Speaker 2: that people care about you. It's a connection to the
Speaker 2: outside world. It's surreal in there, it's a hellhole, and
Speaker 2: people don't know how critical it is to have that
Speaker 2: connection to the real world where people are kinder and
Speaker 2: are more loving and are not as violent. I was
Speaker 2: lucky because I had three different church groups. I had
Speaker 2: the United Methodist Church, I had my Quaker meeting, and
Speaker 2: I had the UCC Unitarian Universalists. I was involved with
Speaker 2: all those congregations, with helping hopeless people and helping immigrants
Speaker 2: and all these different things I did in for mission
Speaker 2: work before I went into prison, and so all those
Speaker 2: people came and visited me. Good friends that I'd known
Speaker 2: for years came to visit me. And some of them
Speaker 2: came every week, faithfully, every single week. And I was
Speaker 2: really fortunate because there were women that never got a visit.
Speaker 3: Can you remember? Would you want to talk about what
Speaker 3: was the worst and the best moment that you had,
Speaker 3: if there even was the best one, and it sounds
Speaker 3: like there was when you were in prison, Well.
Speaker 2: I'll give you one of the worst ones was a
Speaker 2: woman who had thought that the label on me was
Speaker 2: true and didn't know me. I was in the kitchen
Speaker 2: working and she came up and took the bucket of
Speaker 2: caustic floor cleaner like draino, you know, bad bad pH
Speaker 2: and threw it in my eyes and face while I
Speaker 2: was working on the floor crew and that immediately caused
Speaker 2: a chemical burn on my eyeballs, my face and arms
Speaker 2: and stuff that were hit by a little of it
Speaker 2: that wasn't as bad, it was just it hit my eyes. Well,
Speaker 2: I do have only fifty two percent of my vision
Speaker 2: now in my left eye. It ate away at the
Speaker 2: sclere of my eyes. Whites of my eyes were brought down.
Speaker 2: A couple of tissue layers, so all my blood vessels
Speaker 2: were exposed, and my eyes were really very red, and
Speaker 2: oh god, it hurt, It really hurt. And I had
Speaker 2: never had anything hurt that much in my life, and
Speaker 2: I'd had childbirth. So I just was crying and they
Speaker 2: would not let me have medical treatment for my eyes.
Speaker 2: All they would do is they give me an ice
Speaker 2: pack and told me to go back to my unit.
Speaker 2: And so I walked down the hall from the clinic
Speaker 2: the infirmary with this ice pack on my eyes, and
Speaker 2: I had not even gone a hundred feet and they
Speaker 2: took my ice pack away from me. I had not
Speaker 2: even gone a hundred feet. For Pete's sake, people die
Speaker 2: in prison because they aren't getting proper medical treatment. People
Speaker 2: die because there's no protection. People die because there isn't
Speaker 2: adequate care.
Speaker 3: We need to treat people in our presence as human
Speaker 3: beings somehow or other that that's been lost. What was
Speaker 3: the happiest moment.
Speaker 2: I honestly, oh, okay, I can't think of something happy.
Speaker 2: I didn't think I could for a minute. There on
Speaker 2: my birthday, they had the Red Hat Society and I
Speaker 2: was invited and they sang Happy Birthday to me and
Speaker 2: they had a positive, inspiring message, and they were volunteers
Speaker 2: from the community who were so sweet and so kind.
Speaker 2: The people that are kind to you in prison you
Speaker 2: can count on one hand, and the rest of the
Speaker 2: guards and the rest of the people that are in there,
Speaker 2: you know, are pretty sadistic and damaging and hurtful to people.
Speaker 2: I think we had cake and ice cream and they
Speaker 2: sang Happy Birthday to me and they made me the
Speaker 2: queen of the day and I got to wear a
Speaker 2: little crown. I mean that sounds really stupid, you know,
Speaker 2: but I just it was a moment that was so
Speaker 2: out of character for everything that was going on. It
Speaker 2: was almost surreal, and it just it just tickled my
Speaker 2: heart to know that there were people in the world
Speaker 2: who loved me and cared about me out there enough
Speaker 2: that they were trying to communicate to.
Speaker 3: Me light in the darkness. It's amazing. You told me
Speaker 3: earlier about this incredible statistic about the percentage of sex
Speaker 3: abuse claims that actually turned out to be real.
Speaker 2: Of sex abuse accusations.
Speaker 3: Right, sex abuse excusations. So whatever you're thinking out there,
Speaker 3: whatever the lowest number you're thinking as a percentage could
Speaker 3: possibly be, it's lower I believe, so, Zinda, can you
Speaker 3: just tell us from your research what that is.
Speaker 2: Well, when I was first wrongfully charged, I had started
Speaker 2: doing research on teachers and false accusations to see what
Speaker 2: kinds of things people have done and that might help me,
Speaker 2: you know, to figure out what to do next. And
Speaker 2: I popped up with information on teachers in India and
Speaker 2: then also closer to home, people in the Welsh National
Speaker 2: Teachers Union. Out of all the students who were falsely
Speaker 2: accusing teachers, they had discovered that it was three point
Speaker 2: two percent or actually real cases of sexual abuse, and
Speaker 2: all of the rest were false accusations. And so they
Speaker 2: had gone to the Parliament and demanded that when students
Speaker 2: would dare to do this to a human being, a teacher,
Speaker 2: that there needed to be this person on a list
Speaker 2: of people that were falsely accusing and damaging people's lives,
Speaker 2: ruining totally destroying their careers and destroying their families and
Speaker 2: their financial retirement and just everything. I remembered that, and
Speaker 2: then they did research not that long ago. Mark Gotsey
Speaker 2: had a great chapter in his book referring to the
Speaker 2: recidivism and that all that research on sex abuse recidivism
Speaker 2: had gone back to an article that had been misinterpreted.
Speaker 2: The research actually said between thirty percent and eighty percent
Speaker 2: recidivism rate depending upon the type of person. They have
Speaker 2: done research more recently than that nineteen eighty six Psychology
Speaker 2: Today article, and that more recent research in what almost
Speaker 2: fifty states now they have one point seven to a
Speaker 2: maximum of three point eight recidivism, So, in other words,
Speaker 2: that's lower. Sex offenders actually recidivate at a lower rate
Speaker 2: than murderers or any other crimes. They are one of
Speaker 2: the lowest of all of the crimes for recident. So
Speaker 2: all of this highly dangerous fear mongering which had gone
Speaker 2: into federal legislation and state legislations everywhere, that, oh, you've
Speaker 2: got to protect people, you can't let them be so
Speaker 2: many feep within a school, you can't let people be close,
Speaker 2: is not based on research.
Speaker 3: It's so out of controls. There's almost a million people
Speaker 3: in the sex offender registry in the United States, I
Speaker 3: think the estimates. I read this article in The Economists
Speaker 3: which said that about fifty thousand of them actually are
Speaker 3: of any danger to end right, and some of them
Speaker 3: are people who were kids when they were having an
Speaker 3: affair with another kid, and then you know every state
Speaker 3: has different laws, and you know, it's like it could
Speaker 3: be a seventeen year old with a fifteen year old
Speaker 3: or a six And by the way, listen, I'm a father,
Speaker 3: and I think that everybody needs to be responsible and
Speaker 3: we need to take care of our children. But those
Speaker 3: laws were designed to protect children from predators, from adult predators,
Speaker 3: and they've been so badly misused and abused, and there's
Speaker 3: so many people in the system now and then it's
Speaker 3: very very important for people to remember exactly what you
Speaker 3: just said, So I'm going to repeat it, which is
Speaker 3: that almost ninety seven percent of cases in which a
Speaker 3: teacher has been accused of sexually abusing a student have
Speaker 3: turned out to be completely demonstrably false. So if you
Speaker 3: end up on a jury and you end up in
Speaker 3: a courtroom, you need to understand this right because the
Speaker 3: next Lucinda is out there, probably standing trial somewhere in
Speaker 3: America right now, and it's because of most likely and
Speaker 3: there are some obviously, there's some that are guilty, but
Speaker 3: it's overwhelmingly likely ninety seven percent chance that what you're
Speaker 3: hearing in that courtroom is absolute horseshit, and you need
Speaker 3: to be aware, and you need to really dive into it,
Speaker 3: and you need to look at the facts that you
Speaker 3: need to understand that you have somebody's life in your hands,
Speaker 3: and that what you're hearing is overwhelmingly likely to be false,
Speaker 3: not true.
Speaker 2: And I blame a lot of it on the over
Speaker 2: ambitious goals of DAS and DDAs and the lack of
Speaker 2: willingness on the part of police to investigate. Everybody who
Speaker 2: has a responsibility for investigation in this sort of a
Speaker 2: thing needs to actually investigate, and they need to be
Speaker 2: worth their salt as investigators. I mean, the police force
Speaker 2: that I dealt with would bear in police department. They
Speaker 2: were absolutely lousy at their jobs and they didn't do
Speaker 2: a good job.
Speaker 3: They were lousy, and they were lazy, and they were careless,
Speaker 3: and they were cavalier about destroying somebody's life. Actually more
Speaker 3: than one person's life, Your life, life of your loved ones,
Speaker 3: the lives of other people that you could have been
Speaker 3: helping in the community, the life of the child who
Speaker 3: was at the center of this case. Let's talk about
Speaker 3: your exoneration and how that felt after this madness, this
Speaker 3: ordeal that you had been through. Yeah, ultimately how did
Speaker 3: you get exonerated?
Speaker 2: They had taken away my organ teaching credential when I
Speaker 2: was in prison, and then that went on too a
Speaker 2: national consortium Washington State suddenly sent a letter saying, we
Speaker 2: are going to start revoking your teaching credential because Oregon
Speaker 2: says you're a sex offender. Well I wasn't. I knew
Speaker 2: that that was a wrongful label. And I begged the
Speaker 2: people in Washington to let me win my appeal, to
Speaker 2: take all of the evidence, review all of the evidence.
Speaker 2: I had affidavits that proved my actual innocence, and to
Speaker 2: take all that and I was confident that they would
Speaker 2: not revoke my credential. And they did. And the woman
Speaker 2: who was the administrative lod judge said that I was
Speaker 2: of good moral character, that I was fit to teach,
Speaker 2: that the DA had acted on her own personal opinion
Speaker 2: and no substantiate evidence existed, and that the judge and
Speaker 2: Oregon had not followed the law. And those set me
Speaker 2: in the perfect position now to go to the Oregon
Speaker 2: State Bar and to have those people looked into the
Speaker 2: complaint for disbarment, which is the first step towards proscatorial
Speaker 2: misconduct in the state of Oregon. Nobody's ever had the
Speaker 2: guts to go against the DA in the state of Oregon.
Speaker 2: And my minister told me that I needed to do
Speaker 2: it because nobody else would do it, because everybody else
Speaker 2: was afraid. And I've been afraid for five years. I've
Speaker 2: been out now and I've been afraid. But I realized
Speaker 2: that if I don't that she will continue to hurt people.
Speaker 2: And she has. She's continued to hurt other families. She's
Speaker 2: continued to destroy other lives. And it's time for a
Speaker 2: law to be passed on proscatorial misconduct in Oregon. It's
Speaker 2: time for a compensation package for people such as myself
Speaker 2: who needed to have compensation because they took away our livelihoods.
Speaker 2: And it's time to be able to get a lot
Speaker 2: of the other pieces of support systems that are needed
Speaker 2: for exoneries and people that are actually innocent.
Speaker 3: But wait, we skipped over one step. Your conviction was
Speaker 3: overturned after how long and how did it actually take place?
Speaker 2: I won my appeal. I had been in prison waiting
Speaker 2: for justice to happen by having my appeal, and July
Speaker 2: eighteenth of twenty twelve, I won my appeal. The conviction
Speaker 2: was reversed. The sad part about that was that at
Speaker 2: that point that, in spite of the fact that the
Speaker 2: state was not going to take it to the Supreme Court,
Speaker 2: the DA was not willing to let go and admit
Speaker 2: that she'd made a mistake because she knew that she
Speaker 2: would get in some real trouble in admitting anything, so
Speaker 2: she wasn't going to let me go. So I was
Speaker 2: in prison and I was being told you've won a
Speaker 2: new trial, You've got your chance. And then my friends
Speaker 2: came to me and said, we don't have the money
Speaker 2: for a second trial. We're sorry, they cried, We're so sorry.
Speaker 2: We couldn't get enough money for you for a good
Speaker 2: attorney the first time around. We don't have the money
Speaker 2: to do it a second time. And that's the problem
Speaker 2: with the ninety nine percent. When we're poor, there is
Speaker 2: no justice. There is no innocence commission or a free
Speaker 2: People's court or a Desmond to to Reconciliation commission where
Speaker 2: you can come in and say I need to have
Speaker 2: all the evidence presented to clear my name. There's no
Speaker 2: way to do that, and our system is so screwed up.
Speaker 2: Right now, I am sorry, I have absolutely no faith
Speaker 2: in the system anymore. I've seen that it's all arbitrary.
Speaker 2: But I was in prison. I wasn't going to last
Speaker 2: I was going to die and there waiting to be
Speaker 2: proven innocent. And my son came and he cried. He said, Mom,
Speaker 2: everybody knows you, knows you're innocent. Please come home. And
Speaker 2: so the conviction was reversed, the charge was dismissed. But
Speaker 2: then they said that they wanted me to do a
Speaker 2: no contest plea. I would not say that I was guilty.
Speaker 2: I refused to do that. They said, no, if you
Speaker 2: say no contest, it means that the DA could come
Speaker 2: up with some evidence against you for a misdemeanor harassment
Speaker 2: because you touched that kid, you tapped her in She
Speaker 2: said that she was a little bit bothered by it, right,
Speaker 2: which is so, and so that's really overcharging hypercriminalization. Stretching
Speaker 2: the meaning of harassment doesn't fit any of the categories.
Speaker 3: It is worth noting that the Oregon Court of Appeals
Speaker 3: reversed the wrongful conviction based on the fact that the
Speaker 3: trial court had refused to allow the testimony of your
Speaker 3: expert witness, doctor McGovern, which goes back to what you
Speaker 3: were saying before she should have been allowed to testify,
Speaker 3: and had she testify, you never would have been convicted
Speaker 3: because she knew the truth and nobody would listen. It's insane.
Speaker 3: And then ultimately they give you this, this sort of
Speaker 3: Sophie's choice where we had to plead no contest to
Speaker 3: a class BE misdemeanor an unrelated incident, because they have
Speaker 3: to have their little pound of flesh right, they have
Speaker 3: to still get their little They didn't get enough out
Speaker 3: of you, right, they didn't hurt you enough, They got
Speaker 3: to give you this extra little kick in the in
Speaker 3: the in the in the behind.
Speaker 2: I knew that I would ultimately be able to bring
Speaker 2: the truth of that to bear because her prosecutorial misconduct
Speaker 2: of saying I had to please something that she wasn't
Speaker 2: willing to go with the truth, that she would let
Speaker 2: me die in there instead. I knew that eventually something
Speaker 2: would happen, and sure enough, the Washington State Court judge
Speaker 2: ruled that there was not any crime, that harassment was
Speaker 2: absolute garbage. But it took going to another state because
Speaker 2: Oregon was so corrupt. Nobody has ever fought those das.
Speaker 2: And it's because I don't blame them their milk toast
Speaker 2: because they have to go every day into court and
Speaker 2: deal with those same das for their other clients. They
Speaker 2: aren't willing to put themselves on the line because once
Speaker 2: they do go for an innocence case and actually defend
Speaker 2: somebody and advocate for somebody, they'll never be able to
Speaker 2: work in the state again because their career's over. They
Speaker 2: had to be willing to destroy their careers for me,
Speaker 2: and that was a lot of task someone I had
Speaker 2: to go a different route.
Speaker 3: Well, Lucinda, I'm sort of at a loss for words
Speaker 3: to express how much I appreciate and those of us
Speaker 3: in the innocence movement appreciate your courage and your willingness
Speaker 3: to put yourself on the line to bring these things
Speaker 3: to light and to ultimately go back to what you
Speaker 3: were doing all along, which is helping other people. You
Speaker 3: found yourself in a situation you didn't want, no one
Speaker 3: ever wanted to be in. But now you're turning it around.
Speaker 3: You're channeling it into a positive message, into a fight
Speaker 3: that few people be willing to take on, and I
Speaker 3: salute you for that. So we have a tradition here
Speaker 3: on wrongful conviction, which is that we like to turn
Speaker 3: the mic over to close the show to you for
Speaker 3: any last words that you want to share.
Speaker 2: Okay, don't presume that people are guilty when you see
Speaker 2: them on TV. Don't presume when you hear about a case.
Speaker 2: Don't write that person off is about person. Don't presume
Speaker 2: that they're guilty of anything, because it may just be
Speaker 2: a dirty da that is trying to rise upward. Don't presume.
Speaker 2: Always keep an open mind and try to listen with
Speaker 2: an open mind and open heart.
Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
Speaker 3: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
Speaker 3: donor to the Nisnce Project and I really hope you'll
Speaker 3: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
Speaker 3: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innisonsproject dot org
Speaker 3: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
Speaker 3: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
Speaker 3: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 3: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
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Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava
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