1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person. 6 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 2: I hadn't do anything wrong. 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 8 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court, 9 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 10 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 11 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the 12 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court. 13 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 14 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority. 15 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them 16 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: that is trying to rise upward. 18 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 3: Jason Flamm. Today we have a very unique and extraordinary guest, 20 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: Lucinda Heights claybaw Lucinda, welcome to the show. Thank you 21 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 3: very much, and Lucinda, you are such an interesting person, 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 3: so strong and yet so little all right, and so 23 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: tough and you've been through such a crazy saga. This 24 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 3: is going to be I think the only episode of 25 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction ever that features a transgender marine coming to 26 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 3: the rescue. And he'll have Mary Poppins making an appearance 27 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: as well as a big assist from the Nation. So 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 3: fasten your seat belts because you're in for an interesting 29 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 3: ride today. So, Liscinda, where were you from Originally? 30 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: Well, I was actually born in Columbus, Ohio. My dad 31 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: was in medical school to become a doctor, and my 32 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: mom was a registered nurse. They took off for Colorado 33 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: when I was a little toddler. So I grew up 34 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: in Colorado. 35 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 3: How nice where. 36 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: Until I was fourth grade, going fifth grade in Cortes, Colorado, 37 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: the Ute Mountain Ute Indian Reservation, right, So I grew 38 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 2: up as a little kid skiing, and I also grew 39 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: up watching the Ute kids come in and be forced 40 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 2: to speak English when they were just preschoolers. And even 41 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: when I was six years old, I thought, Gee, that's 42 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 2: just wrong for them to slap the hands of those 43 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: kids and make them cry just because they're speaking Ute. 44 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 2: And so I became a bilingual educator because I got 45 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: that that wasn't okay, that they were hurting kids when 46 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: they were trying to speak their primary language. 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, that would definitely have an impact on someone, especially 48 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 3: when you're young. So you channeled it into life and education, 49 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 3: which is I happened to think, one of the most 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: noble professions. So you eventually made your way from Colorado 51 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 3: to the Pacific Northwest. 52 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to Read College. 53 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 3: Great liberal arts school, right, very much so. So you 54 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 3: end up at Read College in the Northwest and you 55 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: settle up there, and what happened. 56 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 2: Well, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then 57 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: thought I wanted to be a lawyer. And then I 58 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 2: stopped a nuclear power plant for a little while from 59 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: coming online. I worked for Ralph Nader's Readers. My job 60 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: was to stop the Trojan nuclear power plant from coming online, 61 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: and I was not successful. But I thought that that 62 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: was a personal failure on my part, that I had 63 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: not been able to stop it, and so I was 64 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: really stressed out. I'd been stressed out going to Read 65 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: because it's a real stressful environment. And I came to 66 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: the conclusion that maybe what I needed to do instead 67 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: of trying to change politics go into law, maybe I 68 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: needed to work on one on one changing the hearts 69 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: of human beings and the minds of human beings. And 70 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: so I thought, I'll become a counselor, and I will 71 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: do something with the arts, because I love the arts, 72 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: and there must be a way to make that work 73 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: with therapy and become a real good counselor. So I 74 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: put together a program for performing arts therapy, and then 75 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: I ended up going to New York. So in seventy 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: six seventy seven, I came to New York, and I've 77 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: lived in a feminist artist collective, took dance classes with 78 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: different dance companies, and choreographed and auditioned all over Broadway. 79 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: And so I got to choreograph, and I got to sing, 80 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: and I got to dance, I got to act a 81 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: little bit. 82 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: I wouldn't give away your age, but by the story 83 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 3: that you're telling, obviously you were running around New York 84 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 3: in the seventies, so you're not as young as you 85 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 3: once were. But yet she has told me earlier that 86 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 3: she was out dancing until four o'clock in the morning 87 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 3: in New York last night. So it's nice to see 88 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 3: that this entire ordeal has not dimmed your spirit anyway, 89 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 3: nor your dancing feet. This is an amazing life that 90 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: you led. It's got a little bit of the Great 91 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 3: American novel, traveling all around, going to different places, hitchhiking Broadway, 92 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: teaching dancing. Ultimately you end up back in the Pacific Northwest. 93 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 2: Yeah. I studied at the Dance Notation Bureau here in 94 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: New York. And one of the things I was trained 95 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 2: in back then, they were using a technique which is 96 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: really old, ancient Tibetan chigong. Today they call it tapping. 97 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: There's the tapping solution. They call it EFT emotional freedom technique. 98 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: But you use your middle index finger in most of 99 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: the original technique, and you use the chalker points to 100 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: tap for one and a half seconds. You do a 101 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: double tap, and it's just on the part that reverberates 102 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: throughout your whole chest and its affecting your lungs. When 103 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: you tap on that spot. People who have PTSD hold 104 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 2: their energy, they hold their fear anger, and they hold 105 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: that breath and they could be holding that breath for 106 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: years and that thought that goes with it and all 107 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: the emotions to go with it, and when you tap, 108 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: it grounds the person and then suddenly it lets go 109 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: and you are connected again. 110 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 3: Wow. 111 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 2: And it's a healing technique that's been used for thousands 112 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: of years by about a third of the world's population 113 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 2: that understand Eastern medicine. 114 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm someone who has benefited from Eastern medicine. 115 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 3: I was a skeptic and I became a believer. It's 116 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: quite extraordinary because I am somebody who's considered myself rooted 117 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 3: in science and that does come back. 118 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: To comes back. 119 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 3: Exact you. So you were a healer in various different ways, 120 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 3: and one of those was a technique, this Eastern technique 121 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 3: of tapping. It was just demonstrating the studio. You can't 122 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 3: see it, but sort of tapping below the throat and 123 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 3: different places and showing me, which is something I didn't 124 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 3: know about. So it's interesting to learn. But I want 125 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: to get into what happened that took you on such 126 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 3: a terrible turn in your life. How old were you 127 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: when this all happened. 128 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: I was fifty fifty one. 129 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: So let's jump forward to the time of this incident 130 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 3: that led to your being wrongfully convicted and sent to prison. 131 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 3: So what was the school you were teaching at the time. 132 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: I was at Woodburn and I was in an elementary 133 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: school that was a bilingual program, and I am credentialed 134 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 2: as a bilingual teacher in Spanish and fluent, and I 135 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: was substituting, but I'd taken a position I didn't really 136 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: want to take. They'd called me and said, no, no, 137 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: you can't teach music. You have to go teach this 138 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: other classroom. We can't find anyone else who will take 139 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: that class. And I thought, oh my god, what is 140 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: wrong with that class that they won't take this class? 141 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: The third graders? 142 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: Right, they were a third fourth grade combination. 143 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 3: So how bad could it really be? 144 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: I guess, well, you'd think not. But the fact that 145 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: no other substitute, you know, if nobody else is willing 146 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 2: to do it, there's something. And so that was kind 147 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: of a red flag. I wish that i'd never had 148 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: taken that class that day. So I went in and 149 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: sure enough, there was a kid who was really horrible 150 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: with his behavior. Everybody knew this kid, everybody dealt with 151 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: him all the time. He made life difficult. The poor 152 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: kid had always been kicked out of the classroom for 153 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 2: his behavior, so he'd never learned to read. And I 154 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: was a language development specialist, so I thought, Okay, i've 155 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: had these reading classes. I'll diagnose what's wrong. I'll analyze 156 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: what's wrong, and i'll write it up for the teacher, 157 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: and I'll help this kid out. So I spent some 158 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: time helping this kid, and my focus was pretty much 159 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: on him. And most of the other kids were being 160 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: pretty good, except for this one girl who was like 161 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: a puppy dog fan of this other kid, and she 162 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: would copy everything that he did like an echo, and 163 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: if he misbehaved, then she would do the same thing too, 164 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: And she was defying my authority because he was defying 165 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: my authority. Within the first fifteen minutes of the school day, 166 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: she had falsely accused some boys of doing some things 167 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 2: hitting and kicking, and was trying to get him into 168 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: trouble deliberately, and the boys were in tears. When it 169 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: came to be recess time, I kept nine kids in 170 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: because they hadn't showed me any work and they'd been 171 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: playing around, and she was one of them, and she 172 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 2: was mad that she couldn't go to recess, and so 173 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: she was defiant. She refused to do any work. She 174 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 2: stuck out her powdy lip and you stop, stomp, stomp, 175 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: and she started chanting. My training kicked in. It was 176 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 2: like oh, And then I realized I had to make 177 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 2: a commitment. This kid has always been passed on, and 178 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 2: nobody's dealt with her, and nobody's dealt with these other issues. 179 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 3: So what'd you do? So what happened? 180 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: Well after she'd done these things over and over to 181 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 2: these other kids, I got down on my knees because 182 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: she was sitting at her desk chanting to herself, and 183 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: I just tried to counsel her about being kinder to 184 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: the other students, and she was just chanting and rocking. 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: And so I went ahead and I said, with my 186 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: finger tapping her on her manubrium, the upper part of 187 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: this jurnam for one and a half seconds, I said, 188 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: you need to change your heart. And she did take 189 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: a breath, as I thought she might. She did, and 190 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 2: in that split second she took another breath. And then 191 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: that's when you go ahead, and then you tap on 192 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: the forehead for one and a half seconds again on 193 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: the chalker to integrate the mind, and I said, you 194 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 2: need to change your mind, because she needed to know 195 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: that she had control over her own healing, and that 196 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: she had control of choice. In doing this, and no 197 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: sooner had she done that, But then she went back 198 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: to rocking and chanting again. 199 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 3: When was it that you were first accosted by the authorities? 200 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: Two days later. Two days later, I was in a 201 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 2: kindergarten classroom in that same school and the regular teacher 202 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: had finally come back. Unfortunately I had not. I'd gone 203 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: to the liaison to get the address and phone number 204 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: so I could go on a home visit, because my 205 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: intention that very first when I had tapped her, was 206 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: to go on the home visit, say hi, I was 207 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 2: the teacher for your child. Today she had a substitute, 208 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: and I just want you to know this is what 209 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 2: her behavior was today, and this is how I responded 210 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: to it. But I didn't have that opportunity because the 211 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: laison was gone for two days, she was absent, the 212 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: office closed early, so I never went on the home 213 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: visit and had not had the opportunity to go talk 214 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: to them. Meanwhile, the kid had gone home, and I 215 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: don't know what she said to her mom or her 216 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: dad exactly, but mom had called DHS, the Department of 217 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 2: Health and Human Services, and said my child has been touched, 218 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: and that was interpreted misinterpreted as sexual abuse. It wasn't 219 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: the case, but that's what they said. The girl, when 220 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 2: the regular teacher came back, had gone on the playground 221 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: and said, the teacher touched me, and that teacher also 222 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: jumped to conclusions and presumed all kinds of things, and 223 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: people did not interpret the gesture accurately. The principal had 224 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 2: called the counselor and said, I want you to talk 225 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: to this girl, and so the girl had gone to 226 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 2: the counselor. Counselor said, what happened. Can you tell me 227 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: what happened? She said, yes, the teacher touched me like this, 228 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: and she showed a very rapid chigong tap. So she 229 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: went back and the counselor said to the principal, there's 230 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 2: nothing sexual, there's nothing intimate, there's nothing reportable, there's nothing here. 231 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 2: The kid's fine, and the counselor conveyed that, but the 232 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: principle didn't like me, so she said, well, I want 233 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: you to go back and talk to her again. And 234 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: so she called the student in again and said, the 235 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: principal wanted me to talk to you again. Can you 236 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 2: tell me what happened? And again she showed her the 237 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 2: chigong tap. So three times now she showed her the 238 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: same thing and then she said, can you explain that again? 239 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, the teacher hit me like this, 240 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: and again she showed the same tap, but she used 241 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: the word hit, and well, how do you feel about that? 242 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: And it is like the fourth time she's been told 243 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: to think about it again? Are you sure? 244 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: You know? 245 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: So they're tainting this witness's testimony, you know, they're starting 246 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 2: to shape it. It's not being recorded. So her story 247 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: had changed just a little bit by being asked four 248 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: times and being real, are you sure? Are you sure? 249 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 3: And we know that any witness will change their story 250 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 3: if there ask something enough times under enough pressure, But 251 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 3: when it's a young, impressionable mind like a third grader, 252 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 3: especially in this particular situation, who has been known to 253 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 3: be an instigator, a troublemaker, or someone who makes up stories, 254 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 3: that's a recipe for disaster. So ultimately she changed her 255 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,719 Speaker 3: story to one in which she was touched inappropriately. 256 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 2: Right, that only came about I think once the DA 257 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: had started leading her towards that, or the police had 258 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 2: started leading her towards that. That was never made clear 259 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: because she had said nothing she had just gestured. She 260 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: did not say a word originally, she just pointed with 261 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: her just string and that then the gesture was misinterpreted 262 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: as a point towards her lower part of her body, 263 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 2: and they say the part that was covered by a 264 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 2: swimsuit on the bottom of her body, and that then 265 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: was misinterpreted and the DA grabbed that, you know, and 266 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 2: flew with and said do you mean this? And she 267 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: was different that she was nodding all the time to 268 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: whatever the DA said, whatever the police said. She just 269 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 2: kept nodding her head. 270 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: Those of us who grew up in the seventies remember 271 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 3: that there was a whole wave of hysteria that swept 272 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 3: the country where there were numerous cases of schools, daycare 273 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 3: centers and schools for young children where there were reported 274 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: mass sexual abuse or serial sexual abusees and sometimes with 275 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 3: a satanic overtone. And it turned out that none of 276 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 3: those things were true, but dozens of people went to 277 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 3: prison for these horrible incidents, and so we thought that 278 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 3: that had been you know, I think the general feeling 279 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 3: when the public was that that had been something that 280 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: was in era, But obviously it's something that has persisted. 281 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: And you're a perfect example of that. So ultimately they 282 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: came and arrested you. 283 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, they came to the school and they started to 284 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: interrogate me, and I had never been treated like that 285 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: in my life. And they'd use the read technique where 286 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: the ones on the far side of your peripheral vision 287 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: on one side and the other ones on the other 288 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: side of your purfle vision, and they literally make you dizzy, 289 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 2: going back and forth so quickly with harsh questions that 290 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: you start to answer and then the other one comes 291 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: in and interrupts and they really disorient you. It was 292 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: really upsetting. You know, I'm being treated really horribly, and 293 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: I just can't imagine where these people are coming from. 294 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: And then it saiding, no, no, you are being accused, 295 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: and I went what And my jaw dropped, and I said, 296 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: you've got to be kidding, You've got you know. I 297 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: couldn't believe it. They weren't kidding, No, they weren't. And 298 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: that's the thing is, you go, oh my gosh, these 299 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: guys are serious. 300 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 3: So ultimately, these things we know, gained a certain terrifying 301 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 3: momentum of their own, and once you get caught in 302 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 3: the system, even someone like you who's highly educated and 303 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 3: able to understand what's going on. Even still, once the 304 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 3: gears start turning and someone's caught in them, there's really 305 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 3: very little chance of getting out. I mean, we weren't 306 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 3: a wealthy person who could hire, you know, the dream team. 307 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: But nonetheless, you were perfectly capable of understanding the situation 308 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 3: and defending yourself, and you knew that this was an 309 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 3: absurd situation. But nonetheless, you go to trial. You were 310 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: offered a plea, which I think is an important part 311 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 3: of the story, right. 312 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: I mean, well, they offered it, but I said no, 313 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: I I was a quicker, and I said, I'm not 314 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: about to say I did something I didn't do. So 315 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 2: I went to prison. 316 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 3: So they offered you a plea. It's important to note 317 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 3: that in America, ninety five or ninety six percent of 318 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 3: felony convictions are the results of plea bargains, because people 319 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 3: in your situation look at it and go, well, especially 320 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: if you're get you're gonna go, well, I'm gonna take 321 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: the best deal I can get, and the best thing 322 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 3: you can get is a lot better than the worst one, 323 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 3: And they make that very clear to you. And if 324 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 3: you're innocent. Even still, many people in your situation would 325 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 3: have taken the deal because you can see what's going on. 326 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 3: You can see you're being railroaded. You can see that 327 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 3: your chances of winning when everybody's suddenly out to get 328 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: you are slim to none. So a lot of innocent people, 329 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 3: tragically in this country end up taking a plea. So 330 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 3: it says something, not everything, but it says something when 331 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 3: somebody in your situation says, I'm going to take a 332 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 3: chance on a seventy five month sentence instead of taking 333 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 3: what let's call it a relatively light sentence, because you 334 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 3: wanted to stand up for what you knew was true, 335 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: which is that you were innocent. 336 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 2: Actually, it's because of my naivete though. I just didn't 337 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: know what the system was like when you're in it, 338 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 2: and I think most people in America think it's like 339 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: Law and Order on TV or something. But the reality 340 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 2: was I was naive enough to believe that I would 341 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 2: be able to just present all of my proof of 342 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: actual innocence, that they would investigate adequately, which they did not, 343 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 2: and that I would be able to have all the 344 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: proof of my innocence just right there, and so that 345 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: I wouldn't be going to prison because I was a 346 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 2: good person. I hadn't done anything wrong, and I didn't 347 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 2: think that they would actually be able to do anything 348 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 2: because I knew I hadn't done a thing that was criminal. 349 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 3: Not only that, but there was also a total lack 350 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 3: of any physical evidence against you. And basically you're so, 351 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 3: I mean, you were convicted on the testimony, which isn't 352 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: even really testimony, but you were convicted on a wild 353 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 3: accusation made by a third grader. That's basically it. And 354 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 3: then these uh, over, let's be polite and call it 355 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: over zealous law enforcement people who decided to just take 356 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 3: that theory which they had actually coerced from this child, 357 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: and then turned it into a case that some of 358 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 3: them maybe could make their reputation on or else they 359 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: just were who knows, they're just doing their jobs, right, 360 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: So no. 361 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: I think that she was overly ambitious. The Dada was 362 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 2: extremely overly ambitious. 363 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 3: So let's go to the trial. So you go to trial, well, 364 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 3: and at this point it must be becoming more and 365 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: more surreal. This whole experience. You who's lived a would 366 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 3: call it a virtuous life, helping people in so many 367 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 3: different ways. SKI Patrol teaching counselings, mission work, and now 368 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 3: all of a sudden you're being accused of a crime 369 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 3: that is, you know, certainly one of the last things 370 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 3: in the world that anybody would ever want to be 371 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 3: accused of. So you go to trial. Did you believe 372 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 3: when you went to trial that the truth would come out? 373 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,719 Speaker 2: And I did. I was notive enough to believe that, 374 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 2: And all of my friends were also naive enough to 375 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 2: believe that, and they kept believing in the system. Everybody 376 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 2: wants to believe in the system. We are taught to 377 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: believe in the system. We want to believe it works 378 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 2: for us. I still do well. And the problem is 379 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: the problem is is that you can't count if the 380 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 2: d's are being trained to come out of law school 381 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: and go in to be deceitful, and they see that 382 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: the goal is not to seek the truth, the whole truth, 383 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 2: and nothing but the truth will help you God. But 384 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,239 Speaker 2: they actually think that it's an adversarial system. And that 385 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: was brought home because the counselor, bless her, the counselor 386 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: went to the DA. Later on, she went to the 387 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 2: DA's office and she heard that the ten to two verdict, 388 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: you know, was against me that I was going to 389 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 2: go to prison. So she went to the DA and said, 390 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 2: I have information about this kid that didn't get to 391 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: be heard by the court. Nobody had ever heard what 392 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: had happened that I just told you about, you know, 393 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: the tapping. Nobody had heard that because the DA had maneuvered. 394 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 2: So nobody got to hear a whole classroom of kids 395 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 2: as affidavit witnesses alby witnesses that nothing had happened. Nobody 396 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: got to hear the licensed investigator for the licensure who 397 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: had heard that the kid hadn't said a word. All 398 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 2: this was covered up by the DA. The DA was 399 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: so despicable that she had the Assistant Attorney General for 400 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 2: the State of Oregon put a quash to suppress the 401 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 2: investigator from testifying as a witness. Why would she do 402 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 2: that except she was covering her own rear end And 403 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that she would do that. She would 404 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: be so despicable as to not seek truth. That it 405 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 2: was supposed to be a seeking process, I thought. And 406 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: in reality, we've deteriorated to a point where there isn't justice. 407 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 2: All you get is people wanting to have a conviction 408 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 2: and wanting to do whatever it takes to get that conviction, 409 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 2: to help with the truth. You know, they didn't care, 410 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: and the DA's office said to the counselor, I'm sorry, 411 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 2: we aren't interested in taking your information. We're the ones 412 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: trying to convict her. The counselor, I had to go 413 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: the judge directly, and that changed the course of everything 414 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: for me, because suddenly there was new evidence. There was 415 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: evidence of my actual innocence. I'd already been convicted ten 416 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 2: to two. And this woman was finally coming forward because 417 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 2: she'd been told by the school district not to go 418 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 2: and talk to anybody, not to say anything. That they 419 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: didn't ask her. Well, I had such an inept attorney 420 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: that incompetent that they had not asked the questions. I said, 421 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 2: you need to ask you this question, but they didn't. 422 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 2: So finally she was coming forward on her own. The 423 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: DA wouldn't take her statement. She went to the judge 424 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 2: and she wrote out a statement. She's talked to him 425 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 2: for an hour and said, yes, I swear that this 426 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 2: is you know I will speak. 427 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 3: This is after you were convicted, after. 428 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 2: I was convicted, tend to do so. 429 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 3: This is during the sentencing phase. Yes, let's go back 430 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 3: to this second. First of all, this tragic wul happened 431 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 3: to you, But it's also sad because this child, who 432 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 3: was obviously a troubled child in the first place, also 433 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 3: is now caught up in this. I mean, who knows 434 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: what she ends up believing, whether this actually happened or 435 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 3: not or whatever. And who wants to go through that 436 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 3: process and be a subject of such a highly publicized 437 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 3: and politicized event around your own sexuality when you're a child. 438 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 3: I mean, it's just it's all very distasteful and disgusting 439 00:22:45,720 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 3: if you think about it. So you're convicted ultimately and sentenced. 440 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 2: To what mandatory minimum in Oregon is six years, three months. 441 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 3: Seventy five months in prison, right, seventy five months. That's 442 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: that's a long time. 443 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you actually hadn't done anything. 444 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 3: Done anything. I hadn't done anything ever. 445 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: And also was trying to help, you know, because I 446 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: was I was trying to help a kid. I understood, 447 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 2: and you know, I'm sure other people you know, served 448 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 2: a lot longer, but you know, I went in I 449 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: was a girl scout, I was a goodie two shoes, 450 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 2: I was a Quaker and. 451 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 3: You were in your fifties and you were. 452 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 2: A mom, and I was an old, grandma, aged person. Yeah, 453 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 2: so yeah, it was It was not the lifestyle I 454 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: was used to. 455 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 3: So let's let's talk about that, because you have a 456 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 3: remarkable story of having survived in a what would look 457 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 3: to be an impossible situation when you went to prison. 458 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 3: Here you are, You're a fish out of water to 459 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 3: start with, and on top of that, you're a convicted 460 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: sex offender, which is a terrible thing to be in 461 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 3: that environment. So how did you get through it? I mean, 462 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 3: you're you're not a big strong woman, right. 463 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: That was the second smallest woman in prison, right, I 464 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: weigh ninety five pounds wet. Yeah. So I went in 465 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 2: and I knew that God knew that I was innocent, 466 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: and I knew eventually, I wasn't sure why I was there. 467 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 2: At first I was upset, but then it was like, no, no, no, 468 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: I'm here not because God put me here. I'm here 469 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: because a little girl was very confused and lied and 470 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: has real mental troubles and emotional troubles. So I just 471 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: prayed to have some direction, to try to see beauty 472 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: every day, try to see goodness, try to see some 473 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 2: kindness and try to be that for other people. I 474 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: came to that realization that I had to be that 475 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 2: for other people. I couldn't just want it for myself, 476 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: because it's a real hell hole when you're put in 477 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: prison and people have no idea that could be a 478 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: whole program onto itself. It's a hell hole. So you 479 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: have to create God within there. You have to be 480 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 2: God within there. You have to be the goodness. You 481 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: have to be the beauty. You have to be the kindness. 482 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: You have to live it, you have to emanate it, 483 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,719 Speaker 2: you have to create it. 484 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 3: But ultimately you need more than that. 485 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: Well, in the miracles, in the form of my marine, 486 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: I was in choir. I chose to go to every 487 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: church service that existed that they would let me get 488 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 2: into my schedule. So I went to the Mormon choir 489 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: for women. And behind me, sitting in the Mormon choir 490 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: was this base voice. And I turned around and it 491 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: was a transgendered marine six foot three or four size 492 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 2: thirteen shoe big fellow who was now a woman, and 493 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: she protected me. She had been in the military, and 494 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 2: she would walk around the yard with me and growl, 495 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 2: people who are giving me our time, and she was wonderful. 496 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: She's still writes me every week to this day. 497 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 3: I'm picturing this tiny little Lucinda walking around with the 498 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 3: transgender marine, growling at people, and the whole scene is 499 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 3: sort of surreal. Of getting a great visual here. So 500 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 3: you found your protector. 501 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: I found somebody who took care of me between a 502 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: year and a half two years that I was in there, 503 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 2: and that was really wonderful. When she left, she was released, 504 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 2: I really had to really pray then that I would 505 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 2: have the armor of God for protection, that there would 506 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: be guardian angels to protect me, that somehow that I 507 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: could be protected. 508 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 3: Let's talk about Mary Poppins, because Mary Poppins is not 509 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,479 Speaker 3: part of a lot of wrongful conviction stories. 510 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: The reason I was singing Mary Poppins in the county 511 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: jail when I was first arrested. I had never been 512 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: in prison in my life, and so I had no 513 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: idea what to expect. And it was a long time. 514 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 2: You're in there for six hours and more, you know, 515 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: just waiting, you know, for my bail to come through 516 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 2: that very first time, and I realized that I needed 517 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: to just start doing something positive so I wouldn't feel 518 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 2: so depressed, and so I started singing all of the 519 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 2: songs from Mary Poppins because I knew him by heart. 520 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: And this a woman came in who was in there 521 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: for drug charges, and you know, she was kind of 522 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 2: out of it for a while, and then she said, 523 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,959 Speaker 2: she said, honey, you need to not do that anymore. 524 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: I said what, And she goes, you have a nice voice, 525 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: you know, but but you need to not sing like that. 526 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 2: And I said why, I don't understand, and she goes, well, 527 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 2: you're too happy. You're too damn happy. People in prisoner 528 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: are kind of unhappy and messed up, and they're going 529 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 2: to want to kill you if you sing any more 530 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 2: of those you know, a spoonful of sugar. 531 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 3: So you survived with your faith and you're a guardian angel. 532 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 3: What was your marine. 533 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 2: Friend's name, Sandra Soho? 534 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 3: So, Sandra Soho So. 535 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: She's now Reverend Sandra Soho. 536 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 3: After sand Soho was released, How did you manage to 537 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 3: build up this armor and steal yourself against these people 538 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: who are out to get really out to get you. 539 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 2: Well, before I was put in prison, I was an 540 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: AVP Alternatives to Violence Project facilitator that's a Quaker program 541 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 2: where they put half guards and have inmates together and 542 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 2: teach about transformational power. They teach about love and being 543 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 2: willing to be vulnerable and surrender and by breathing through 544 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: not being afraid, breathing through fear, that you get through 545 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 2: fear and then you are vulnerable. But there actually is 546 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 2: a certain amount of miraculous power, transformational power that can 547 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 2: come to you. And sometimes I had that experience. Other 548 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: times no, but I did have people coming up to 549 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: me ready to punch me and stab me and things, 550 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 2: and I would pray and say, you know, friend, I 551 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: have absolutely no ill will towards you. You are welcome 552 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: to read my affidavits. My attorney says, you can read 553 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: all about my case so you can see that for 554 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 2: yourself that I'm innocent, that I never would ever harm anyone, 555 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: and am I have no desire to harm you, and 556 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 2: I have no desire to do anything that it would 557 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: be disrespectful to you. And in one case, the woman 558 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: just stopped in her tracks about three and a half 559 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,479 Speaker 2: feet from me, and you could just see her body 560 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: expression and her body relax and she sat down and 561 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: she I said, would you like to read my affidavit? 562 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 2: She said, I don't need to. 563 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 3: So that was a very serendipitous. Yeah, situation, the fact 564 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 3: that you had this training in defusing exactly the situation 565 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,479 Speaker 3: that ironically found yourself in. So there was a you 566 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 3: had more than one guardian angel, as it turns out. 567 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 3: And how important was the support of the Quaker community. 568 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 3: Were you getting letters, were you getting positive affirmation from people? 569 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 3: And what did that mean to you? 570 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: Laring this time, Well, everybody who's out in the outside 571 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: world should right to end inmate. I don't think people 572 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: appreciate how important it is. It's like Christmas, you realize 573 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 2: that people care about you. It's a connection to the 574 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: outside world. It's surreal in there, it's a hellhole, and 575 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: people don't know how critical it is to have that 576 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: connection to the real world where people are kinder and 577 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 2: are more loving and are not as violent. I was 578 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: lucky because I had three different church groups. I had 579 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: the United Methodist Church, I had my Quaker meeting, and 580 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: I had the UCC Unitarian Universalists. I was involved with 581 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 2: all those congregations, with helping hopeless people and helping immigrants 582 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 2: and all these different things I did in for mission 583 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: work before I went into prison, and so all those 584 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: people came and visited me. Good friends that I'd known 585 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: for years came to visit me. And some of them 586 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 2: came every week, faithfully, every single week. And I was 587 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: really fortunate because there were women that never got a visit. 588 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 3: Can you remember? Would you want to talk about what 589 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 3: was the worst and the best moment that you had, 590 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 3: if there even was the best one, and it sounds 591 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 3: like there was when you were in prison, Well. 592 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: I'll give you one of the worst ones was a 593 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: woman who had thought that the label on me was 594 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 2: true and didn't know me. I was in the kitchen 595 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 2: working and she came up and took the bucket of 596 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: caustic floor cleaner like draino, you know, bad bad pH 597 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: and threw it in my eyes and face while I 598 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: was working on the floor crew and that immediately caused 599 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 2: a chemical burn on my eyeballs, my face and arms 600 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 2: and stuff that were hit by a little of it 601 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: that wasn't as bad, it was just it hit my eyes. Well, 602 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 2: I do have only fifty two percent of my vision 603 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: now in my left eye. It ate away at the 604 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: sclere of my eyes. Whites of my eyes were brought down. 605 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: A couple of tissue layers, so all my blood vessels 606 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 2: were exposed, and my eyes were really very red, and 607 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 2: oh god, it hurt, It really hurt. And I had 608 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 2: never had anything hurt that much in my life, and 609 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: I'd had childbirth. So I just was crying and they 610 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: would not let me have medical treatment for my eyes. 611 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: All they would do is they give me an ice 612 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: pack and told me to go back to my unit. 613 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: And so I walked down the hall from the clinic 614 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 2: the infirmary with this ice pack on my eyes, and 615 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 2: I had not even gone a hundred feet and they 616 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 2: took my ice pack away from me. I had not 617 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 2: even gone a hundred feet. For Pete's sake, people die 618 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: in prison because they aren't getting proper medical treatment. People 619 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: die because there's no protection. People die because there isn't 620 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: adequate care. 621 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 3: We need to treat people in our presence as human 622 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 3: beings somehow or other that that's been lost. What was 623 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 3: the happiest moment. 624 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 2: I honestly, oh, okay, I can't think of something happy. 625 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: I didn't think I could for a minute. There on 626 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 2: my birthday, they had the Red Hat Society and I 627 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: was invited and they sang Happy Birthday to me and 628 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: they had a positive, inspiring message, and they were volunteers 629 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 2: from the community who were so sweet and so kind. 630 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: The people that are kind to you in prison you 631 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: can count on one hand, and the rest of the 632 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: guards and the rest of the people that are in there, 633 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 2: you know, are pretty sadistic and damaging and hurtful to people. 634 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: I think we had cake and ice cream and they 635 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 2: sang Happy Birthday to me and they made me the 636 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: queen of the day and I got to wear a 637 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,959 Speaker 2: little crown. I mean that sounds really stupid, you know, 638 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: but I just it was a moment that was so 639 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: out of character for everything that was going on. It 640 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 2: was almost surreal, and it just it just tickled my 641 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: heart to know that there were people in the world 642 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: who loved me and cared about me out there enough 643 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 2: that they were trying to communicate to. 644 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 3: Me light in the darkness. It's amazing. You told me 645 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 3: earlier about this incredible statistic about the percentage of sex 646 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 3: abuse claims that actually turned out to be real. 647 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 2: Of sex abuse accusations. 648 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 3: Right, sex abuse excusations. So whatever you're thinking out there, 649 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 3: whatever the lowest number you're thinking as a percentage could 650 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 3: possibly be, it's lower I believe, so, Zinda, can you 651 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 3: just tell us from your research what that is. 652 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 2: Well, when I was first wrongfully charged, I had started 653 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: doing research on teachers and false accusations to see what 654 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: kinds of things people have done and that might help me, 655 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 2: you know, to figure out what to do next. And 656 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 2: I popped up with information on teachers in India and 657 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: then also closer to home, people in the Welsh National 658 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 2: Teachers Union. Out of all the students who were falsely 659 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 2: accusing teachers, they had discovered that it was three point 660 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: two percent or actually real cases of sexual abuse, and 661 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 2: all of the rest were false accusations. And so they 662 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: had gone to the Parliament and demanded that when students 663 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 2: would dare to do this to a human being, a teacher, 664 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 2: that there needed to be this person on a list 665 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: of people that were falsely accusing and damaging people's lives, 666 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 2: ruining totally destroying their careers and destroying their families and 667 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: their financial retirement and just everything. I remembered that, and 668 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: then they did research not that long ago. Mark Gotsey 669 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: had a great chapter in his book referring to the 670 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 2: recidivism and that all that research on sex abuse recidivism 671 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 2: had gone back to an article that had been misinterpreted. 672 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 2: The research actually said between thirty percent and eighty percent 673 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 2: recidivism rate depending upon the type of person. They have 674 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 2: done research more recently than that nineteen eighty six Psychology 675 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 2: Today article, and that more recent research in what almost 676 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 2: fifty states now they have one point seven to a 677 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: maximum of three point eight recidivism, So, in other words, 678 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: that's lower. Sex offenders actually recidivate at a lower rate 679 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 2: than murderers or any other crimes. They are one of 680 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 2: the lowest of all of the crimes for recident. So 681 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: all of this highly dangerous fear mongering which had gone 682 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 2: into federal legislation and state legislations everywhere, that, oh, you've 683 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 2: got to protect people, you can't let them be so 684 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: many feep within a school, you can't let people be close, 685 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 2: is not based on research. 686 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 3: It's so out of controls. There's almost a million people 687 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 3: in the sex offender registry in the United States, I 688 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 3: think the estimates. I read this article in The Economists 689 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 3: which said that about fifty thousand of them actually are 690 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 3: of any danger to end right, and some of them 691 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 3: are people who were kids when they were having an 692 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,479 Speaker 3: affair with another kid, and then you know every state 693 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 3: has different laws, and you know, it's like it could 694 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 3: be a seventeen year old with a fifteen year old 695 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 3: or a six And by the way, listen, I'm a father, 696 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 3: and I think that everybody needs to be responsible and 697 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 3: we need to take care of our children. But those 698 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 3: laws were designed to protect children from predators, from adult predators, 699 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 3: and they've been so badly misused and abused, and there's 700 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 3: so many people in the system now and then it's 701 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 3: very very important for people to remember exactly what you 702 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 3: just said, So I'm going to repeat it, which is 703 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 3: that almost ninety seven percent of cases in which a 704 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 3: teacher has been accused of sexually abusing a student have 705 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 3: turned out to be completely demonstrably false. So if you 706 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 3: end up on a jury and you end up in 707 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 3: a courtroom, you need to understand this right because the 708 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 3: next Lucinda is out there, probably standing trial somewhere in 709 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 3: America right now, and it's because of most likely and 710 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 3: there are some obviously, there's some that are guilty, but 711 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 3: it's overwhelmingly likely ninety seven percent chance that what you're 712 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 3: hearing in that courtroom is absolute horseshit, and you need 713 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 3: to be aware, and you need to really dive into it, 714 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 3: and you need to look at the facts that you 715 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 3: need to understand that you have somebody's life in your hands, 716 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 3: and that what you're hearing is overwhelmingly likely to be false, 717 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 3: not true. 718 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 2: And I blame a lot of it on the over 719 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 2: ambitious goals of DAS and DDAs and the lack of 720 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 2: willingness on the part of police to investigate. Everybody who 721 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 2: has a responsibility for investigation in this sort of a 722 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 2: thing needs to actually investigate, and they need to be 723 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,479 Speaker 2: worth their salt as investigators. I mean, the police force 724 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: that I dealt with would bear in police department. They 725 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 2: were absolutely lousy at their jobs and they didn't do 726 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 2: a good job. 727 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,280 Speaker 3: They were lousy, and they were lazy, and they were careless, 728 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 3: and they were cavalier about destroying somebody's life. Actually more 729 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 3: than one person's life, Your life, life of your loved ones, 730 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 3: the lives of other people that you could have been 731 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 3: helping in the community, the life of the child who 732 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 3: was at the center of this case. Let's talk about 733 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 3: your exoneration and how that felt after this madness, this 734 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 3: ordeal that you had been through. Yeah, ultimately how did 735 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 3: you get exonerated? 736 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 2: They had taken away my organ teaching credential when I 737 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 2: was in prison, and then that went on too a 738 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 2: national consortium Washington State suddenly sent a letter saying, we 739 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 2: are going to start revoking your teaching credential because Oregon 740 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 2: says you're a sex offender. Well I wasn't. I knew 741 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 2: that that was a wrongful label. And I begged the 742 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 2: people in Washington to let me win my appeal, to 743 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: take all of the evidence, review all of the evidence. 744 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 2: I had affidavits that proved my actual innocence, and to 745 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 2: take all that and I was confident that they would 746 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 2: not revoke my credential. And they did. And the woman 747 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 2: who was the administrative lod judge said that I was 748 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 2: of good moral character, that I was fit to teach, 749 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 2: that the DA had acted on her own personal opinion 750 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 2: and no substantiate evidence existed, and that the judge and 751 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 2: Oregon had not followed the law. And those set me 752 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,720 Speaker 2: in the perfect position now to go to the Oregon 753 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 2: State Bar and to have those people looked into the 754 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,839 Speaker 2: complaint for disbarment, which is the first step towards proscatorial 755 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 2: misconduct in the state of Oregon. Nobody's ever had the 756 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 2: guts to go against the DA in the state of Oregon. 757 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 2: And my minister told me that I needed to do 758 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 2: it because nobody else would do it, because everybody else 759 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 2: was afraid. And I've been afraid for five years. I've 760 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 2: been out now and I've been afraid. But I realized 761 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 2: that if I don't that she will continue to hurt people. 762 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: And she has. She's continued to hurt other families. She's 763 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: continued to destroy other lives. And it's time for a 764 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 2: law to be passed on proscatorial misconduct in Oregon. It's 765 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 2: time for a compensation package for people such as myself 766 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 2: who needed to have compensation because they took away our livelihoods. 767 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 2: And it's time to be able to get a lot 768 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 2: of the other pieces of support systems that are needed 769 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 2: for exoneries and people that are actually innocent. 770 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 3: But wait, we skipped over one step. Your conviction was 771 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 3: overturned after how long and how did it actually take place? 772 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 2: I won my appeal. I had been in prison waiting 773 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 2: for justice to happen by having my appeal, and July 774 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 2: eighteenth of twenty twelve, I won my appeal. The conviction 775 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 2: was reversed. The sad part about that was that at 776 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 2: that point that, in spite of the fact that the 777 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 2: state was not going to take it to the Supreme Court, 778 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 2: the DA was not willing to let go and admit 779 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 2: that she'd made a mistake because she knew that she 780 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 2: would get in some real trouble in admitting anything, so 781 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 2: she wasn't going to let me go. So I was 782 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 2: in prison and I was being told you've won a 783 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 2: new trial, You've got your chance. And then my friends 784 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 2: came to me and said, we don't have the money 785 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 2: for a second trial. We're sorry, they cried, We're so sorry. 786 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 2: We couldn't get enough money for you for a good 787 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,720 Speaker 2: attorney the first time around. We don't have the money 788 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 2: to do it a second time. And that's the problem 789 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 2: with the ninety nine percent. When we're poor, there is 790 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 2: no justice. There is no innocence commission or a free 791 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: People's court or a Desmond to to Reconciliation commission where 792 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 2: you can come in and say I need to have 793 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 2: all the evidence presented to clear my name. There's no 794 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 2: way to do that, and our system is so screwed up. 795 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 2: Right now, I am sorry, I have absolutely no faith 796 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 2: in the system anymore. I've seen that it's all arbitrary. 797 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 2: But I was in prison. I wasn't going to last 798 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 2: I was going to die and there waiting to be 799 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 2: proven innocent. And my son came and he cried. He said, Mom, 800 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,959 Speaker 2: everybody knows you, knows you're innocent. Please come home. And 801 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 2: so the conviction was reversed, the charge was dismissed. But 802 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 2: then they said that they wanted me to do a 803 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 2: no contest plea. I would not say that I was guilty. 804 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 2: I refused to do that. They said, no, if you 805 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 2: say no contest, it means that the DA could come 806 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 2: up with some evidence against you for a misdemeanor harassment 807 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 2: because you touched that kid, you tapped her in She 808 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 2: said that she was a little bit bothered by it, right, 809 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 2: which is so, and so that's really overcharging hypercriminalization. Stretching 810 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 2: the meaning of harassment doesn't fit any of the categories. 811 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 3: It is worth noting that the Oregon Court of Appeals 812 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 3: reversed the wrongful conviction based on the fact that the 813 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,399 Speaker 3: trial court had refused to allow the testimony of your 814 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 3: expert witness, doctor McGovern, which goes back to what you 815 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 3: were saying before she should have been allowed to testify, 816 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 3: and had she testify, you never would have been convicted 817 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 3: because she knew the truth and nobody would listen. It's insane. 818 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 3: And then ultimately they give you this, this sort of 819 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 3: Sophie's choice where we had to plead no contest to 820 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 3: a class BE misdemeanor an unrelated incident, because they have 821 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 3: to have their little pound of flesh right, they have 822 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 3: to still get their little They didn't get enough out 823 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 3: of you, right, they didn't hurt you enough, They got 824 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 3: to give you this extra little kick in the in 825 00:43:58,120 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 3: the in the in the behind. 826 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,760 Speaker 2: I knew that I would ultimately be able to bring 827 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 2: the truth of that to bear because her prosecutorial misconduct 828 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,919 Speaker 2: of saying I had to please something that she wasn't 829 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 2: willing to go with the truth, that she would let 830 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,879 Speaker 2: me die in there instead. I knew that eventually something 831 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 2: would happen, and sure enough, the Washington State Court judge 832 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 2: ruled that there was not any crime, that harassment was 833 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 2: absolute garbage. But it took going to another state because 834 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:32,720 Speaker 2: Oregon was so corrupt. Nobody has ever fought those das. 835 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 2: And it's because I don't blame them their milk toast 836 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 2: because they have to go every day into court and 837 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 2: deal with those same das for their other clients. They 838 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 2: aren't willing to put themselves on the line because once 839 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 2: they do go for an innocence case and actually defend 840 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 2: somebody and advocate for somebody, they'll never be able to 841 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,359 Speaker 2: work in the state again because their career's over. They 842 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 2: had to be willing to destroy their careers for me, 843 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 2: and that was a lot of task someone I had 844 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 2: to go a different route. 845 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 3: Well, Lucinda, I'm sort of at a loss for words 846 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,920 Speaker 3: to express how much I appreciate and those of us 847 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 3: in the innocence movement appreciate your courage and your willingness 848 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 3: to put yourself on the line to bring these things 849 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 3: to light and to ultimately go back to what you 850 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 3: were doing all along, which is helping other people. You 851 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 3: found yourself in a situation you didn't want, no one 852 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 3: ever wanted to be in. But now you're turning it around. 853 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,399 Speaker 3: You're channeling it into a positive message, into a fight 854 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 3: that few people be willing to take on, and I 855 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,839 Speaker 3: salute you for that. So we have a tradition here 856 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 3: on wrongful conviction, which is that we like to turn 857 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 3: the mic over to close the show to you for 858 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,720 Speaker 3: any last words that you want to share. 859 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 2: Okay, don't presume that people are guilty when you see 860 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 2: them on TV. Don't presume when you hear about a case. 861 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 2: Don't write that person off is about person. Don't presume 862 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,200 Speaker 2: that they're guilty of anything, because it may just be 863 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 2: a dirty da that is trying to rise upward. Don't presume. 864 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 2: Always keep an open mind and try to listen with 865 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 2: an open mind and open heart. 866 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 867 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,440 Speaker 3: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud 868 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 3: donor to the Nisnce Project and I really hope you'll 869 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 3: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 870 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 3: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innisonsproject dot org 871 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 3: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like 872 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 3: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 873 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 3: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 874 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 3: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 875 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 3: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 876 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava 877 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:07,320 Speaker 3: for Good podcasts and association with signal company Number one