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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know, where the inner voices in your head. It

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Speaker 2: turns out, no, good job, Chuck, good job, you got this.

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Speaker 3: You got this.

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Speaker 2: So what you're engaged in, Chuck, is called private speech.

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Speaker 3: Oh you're so stupid.

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Speaker 2: That's still private good job. As long as we can

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Speaker 2: hear you, and you're talking to yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I get it now, sure saying it out loud,

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Speaker 1: which means it's not the inner monologue or dialogue.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm always heard it called the inner monologue too,

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Speaker 2: or internal monologue. But Anna helped us out with this, right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: Ana g. She points out that inner monologue is a

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Speaker 2: pretty limiting term because that voice in your head, the

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Speaker 2: way that you talk to yourself, it can take all

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Speaker 2: sorts of different shapes rather than you having a conversation

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Speaker 2: beating yourself up quietly, those are kind of the keys

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Speaker 2: to what we would call inner speech, or the people

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Speaker 2: who research it would call it inner speech.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or inner voice.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out this is kind of a tough

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Speaker 1: one in some ways, because it's like I imagine Ana

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Speaker 1: was up against it because there are many, many, many,

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Speaker 1: many facets to this and it can serve a lot

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Speaker 1: of different purposes. It's very common, but also some people

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Speaker 1: don't have it. Yeah, we can look at brain scans

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Speaker 1: and say like, hey, this is lighting up. But it's like,

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Speaker 1: it's also really hard to study and get a consensus

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Speaker 1: on because a lot of it is self reported as

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Speaker 1: far as when people do it, and why people do it,

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Speaker 1: and what function it could serve or doesn't serve, and

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Speaker 1: if you don't have one, what does that mean. So

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Speaker 1: there's just a lot of different avenues and it's tough

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Speaker 1: to kind of make this a real tidy package.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's really impressive that people are figuring out

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Speaker 2: how to research this at all. It's a definitely developing field.

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Speaker 2: It's not established quite yet, so it's kind of the

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Speaker 2: wild West in a lot of ways as far as

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Speaker 2: you know psychology goes. But one of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: it's fairly new is because people forever just thought like

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Speaker 2: there are such things as inner voices, will never be

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Speaker 2: able to study them because they are the definition of

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Speaker 2: subjective and like you said, self reported tests are how

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Speaker 2: they had studied them before, and that's just not super reliable.

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Speaker 2: William James, the father of American psychology, he had to

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Speaker 2: quote a paraphrase, I mean basically said, like trying to

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Speaker 2: study something like inner speech is like turning up the

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Speaker 2: lights to get a good look at what the dark

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Speaker 2: looks like. You can't do it, was the end of

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Speaker 2: his speech.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh boy, that makes a lot of sense, it does.

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Speaker 2: I've heard another one too that I love. Studying consciousness

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Speaker 2: is like trying to use a flashlight to find the shadows.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I got one too. Okay, youth is wasted on

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Speaker 3: the young.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's a good one. That's a good one too.

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Speaker 2: What was spuds? Mackenzie? Party? Animal? Two words? That's all

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Speaker 2: you need to know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is just a tough one because there's so

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Speaker 1: many little nuggets to uncover. Like after I had done

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Speaker 1: all the research and I was kind of like, all right,

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Speaker 1: let's go do this, I was like, wait, wait a minute, though,

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Speaker 1: Like when my grandfather had a stroke when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid, he had a phasia, which is some stroke

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Speaker 1: patients you know, can't you know they're talking, but they're

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Speaker 1: not saying the words that you.

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Speaker 3: Understand, right.

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Speaker 1: It was like, I wonder what's going on in their

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Speaker 1: head and what that has to do with your inner voice.

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Speaker 1: And I saw some things that said like, nope, your

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Speaker 1: are it completely disturbs your inner voice as well, and

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Speaker 1: then another other studies it said, no, your inner speech

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Speaker 1: can be preserve herbed relative to the spoken language if

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Speaker 1: you have a phasia. So it's just it can be frustrating,

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Speaker 1: but it's also I shouldn't look at it that way

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Speaker 1: and just think of it as like just super fascinating

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Speaker 1: and maybe you know, we don't always have all the answers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great way put I think. Another way

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Speaker 2: to say it is we don't understand it, so those

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Speaker 2: listening to this episode aren't going to understand it by

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Speaker 2: the end of it either.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just in the case of the stroke thing

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Speaker 1: with my grandfather, I remember very specifically being a kid

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Speaker 1: and seeing the frustration and thinking as a ten year

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Speaker 1: old like he in his head, he's saying what he's

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Speaker 1: trying to say, right, Like I can tell because he's

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Speaker 1: getting really frustrated that it's coming out as something that

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Speaker 1: is unintelligible to us. But you know, all these years later,

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Speaker 1: I got two answers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go, full circle, I guess in that sense.

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Speaker 3: Yes, not a very satisfying one.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so so, like we said, inner monologue is

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Speaker 2: a little too limiting, we don't want to use that.

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Speaker 2: Inner speech is way better. And inner speech is actually

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Speaker 2: a little limiting, as we'll see too. But it turns

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Speaker 2: out there's a lot of things that our inner speech does. Besides,

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Speaker 2: like you demonstrated beating yourself up, it can be used

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Speaker 2: to motivate. It's a good one. You kind of did

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Speaker 2: that at first.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I think that was That was good, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: Right. We use it for memorizing things, problem solving, We

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Speaker 2: used it to regulate ourselves, like, okay, Chuck, don't be

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Speaker 2: mean to yourself all down. Yeah, that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: But again not out loud, and then even more not

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Speaker 2: me saying it, because dude, if your voice in your

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Speaker 2: head was my voice, oh man, I would be so

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Speaker 2: sorry for you.

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Speaker 3: I dream as you. Is that weird?

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Speaker 2: That's a little weird. I'd like to hear more about

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Speaker 2: that though later on.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm just joking.

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Speaker 1: There have been plenty of people that have studied this,

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Speaker 1: so and you know, we're going to talk about some

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Speaker 1: of these people here and there. That was a pair

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Speaker 1: of researchers in twenty eleven, Simon McCarthy Jones and Charles

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Speaker 1: Fernie Howe.

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Speaker 2: Maybe Fernie Hoe is what I saw. I heard, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like Tally Ho exactly, but Fernie right.

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Speaker 1: They developed to survey and where they kind of categorize

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Speaker 1: different varieties of inner speech, and their survey was called

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Speaker 1: the VISC the Varieties of Inner Speech Questionnaire y I SQ.

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Speaker 1: And they also, along with others, have other categories and

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Speaker 1: we're kind of just gonna go through these now. But

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Speaker 1: one can be dialogic, which means you're like you're having

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Speaker 1: a back and forth with yourself.

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Speaker 3: Or others.

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Speaker 1: I asked Emily if I could talk about this because

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Speaker 1: she talks out loud, which I guess isn't quite the

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Speaker 1: same thing, but she'll I'll see her talking to herself

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Speaker 1: sometimes having a conversation with someone much more common when

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Speaker 1: she was having frustrations with her business, talking like out loud.

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Speaker 3: To people, but it would be in her head.

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Speaker 1: But then I would also see her talking out loud,

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Speaker 1: and I'll walk into her room and say are you

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Speaker 1: talking to and she'd tell me in but that's dialogic

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Speaker 1: because there's some someone else involved, even if that someone

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Speaker 1: else is another you.

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Speaker 2: Right, what you can't see is the giant, furry purple

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Speaker 2: monster with googly eyes and a tiki drink.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, that'd be great.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, dialogic seems to be fairly fairly common too. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's also condensed inner speech. That's it's kind of like

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Speaker 2: a different form of so this. Okay, here's one of

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Speaker 2: the things that I had trouble with, Chuck. Let me

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Speaker 2: just be forth right here these there's not any neat

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Speaker 2: package of this kind, this kind, and this kind, and

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Speaker 2: then there's this sub kind of this kind and this

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Speaker 2: kind and this kind. No one's put it together like that,

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Speaker 2: so it's a little confusing. So, for example, dialogic inner speech,

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Speaker 2: you'd think that the next thing would be monologic or

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Speaker 2: something like that. That's not here. Instead, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: condensed inner speech, which is using like abbreviations or like

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Speaker 2: just words rather than full sentences. And that this is

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Speaker 2: a way that you speak to yourself in a very

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Speaker 2: private manner that you would probably never use to speak

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Speaker 2: out loud. It's just the kind of shorthand that you

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Speaker 2: use for yourself doesn't fit this list at all, and

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Speaker 2: yet here we are.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And as example for that is, you know you're leaving

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Speaker 1: the house and you know phone, keys, wallet in your head,

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Right, But at the same time, you could be having

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Speaker 2: a conversation with somebody about your own case, wallet, so

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Speaker 2: it would be dialogic condensed inner speech drives me nuts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I see your point other people as another one.

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Speaker 1: That's when your voice, not when you're speaking to someone else,

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Speaker 1: but when it takes on the voice of someone else.

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Speaker 1: It could be Abraham Lincoln, it could be Josh Clark.

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Speaker 1: And that's when you're imagining a conversation with someone else,

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Speaker 1: where your own inner voice sounds like someone else. Is

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Speaker 1: different than like Emily having a conversation with another person.

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Speaker 2: Right for sure, Like you're the bystander. Basically there's two

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Speaker 2: people talking. There's a did you see that Guardian article

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Speaker 2: about the that included the woman whose inner voice was

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Speaker 2: a like a stereotypical Italian couple fighting arguing, so interesting

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Speaker 2: and that's how she works stuff out. Like the wife

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Speaker 2: would be like, no, she needs to quit her job

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Speaker 2: and follow her dreams, and the husband would be like no,

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Speaker 2: she's got a good job. She needs to keep her

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Speaker 2: feet on the ground, and like eventually one would win

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Speaker 2: the argument and then that's what she would do. That's

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Speaker 2: what that lady's inner voice is.

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Speaker 1: Like, Yeah, it's very fascinating. One can be motivational or

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Speaker 1: a value to either you know, am I doing a

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Speaker 1: good job here?

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Speaker 3: Or do a good job?

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Speaker 1: They found that, you know, with like sports performance and

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Speaker 1: any kind of like public speaking or any kind of

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Speaker 1: performative thing. You know, that inner voice pumping you up

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Speaker 1: can lead to real results, usually good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw that that was kind of expanded

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Speaker 2: or changed. You're kind of cutt into sub categories later

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Speaker 2: on or at some point. There's evaluative critical, which is

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Speaker 2: basically like you know, did I do a good job

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Speaker 2: or why didn't you get one hundred percent? That kind

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Speaker 2: of thing. Yeah, there's also positive regulatory, which kind of

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Speaker 2: ties into what you were just saying, Like if you

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Speaker 2: imagine yourself, you know, doing really well practicing shooting baskets,

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Speaker 2: there's some part of you that could be like keep

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Speaker 2: up the hard work and you'll be in the MBA

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Speaker 2: in no time. Where you did a great job, like

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Speaker 2: those would fall under positive regulatory.

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Speaker 1: When I play basketball, all I hear in my head

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Speaker 1: is what I hear on the court, which is swish.

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Speaker 2: Oh nice, I was gonna say. I was waiting for

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Speaker 2: you to say brick, because that's what I hear.

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Speaker 1: Ruby expressed interest in playing basketball the other day, and

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Speaker 1: I had a hard time containing myself. I was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's the only sport I was actually pretty

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Speaker 1: good at. Like I can actually teach you something here.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome, man.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't want to say it too positively because

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Speaker 1: then she'd be like, yeah, maybe not.

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Speaker 2: Very smart boy. You know what you're doing.

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Speaker 3: Don't to I'm working on it.

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Speaker 1: Another is prompted no, no, no, I'm sorry expanded speech, which

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Speaker 1: is like if you have to have a tough conversation

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Speaker 1: with someone and you're literally kind of just rehearsing that

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Speaker 1: in your head as one or both. That is like

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Speaker 1: when you're speaking not in any kind of abbreviate, abbreviated way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the opposite of condensed speech, like you're thinking

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Speaker 2: in or hearing in your inner voice the exact words,

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Speaker 2: with the phonetics and the grammar and everything that you

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Speaker 2: would say out.

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Speaker 1: Loud, right, Which that got me on a side track

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Speaker 1: of like, Oh, that's like, why do people when you

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Speaker 1: hear your voice played on a recording?

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Speaker 3: Why does that sound different? It's just has anything to

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Speaker 3: do with that.

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Speaker 1: And I just had to park that because that gets

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Speaker 1: into a whole other thing, which should probably.

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Speaker 2: Be a shorty, the efference copy.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, like when I listen to a podcast

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Speaker 1: of us, like, why does your voice never match when

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Speaker 1: you hear it out loud as it does in your

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Speaker 1: own brain?

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Speaker 2: I think your efference copy probably no.

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Speaker 1: It has to do with like the way your skull reverberates. Oh,

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Speaker 1: really actual physical stuff. But I think that could be

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Speaker 1: a shorty.

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Speaker 2: Reverberating Skull is a great album name.

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Speaker 3: It is, and we'll get to efference copy later on it.

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Speaker 2: I clearly can't wait.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good stuff.

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Speaker 2: There's now we reach a point of the list where

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Speaker 2: coherence starts to emerge. We've got like basically like a

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Speaker 2: one and then the opposite. I don't know why I

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Speaker 2: just put it so confusingly, So let's just start. There's

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Speaker 2: elicited or prompted, which is inner speech that's basically triggered

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Speaker 2: by some external factor. Someone comes along and says, here's

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Speaker 2: some pictures of different stuff, pick out the ones who's

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Speaker 2: named rhyme. So you've got to write a boot and

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Speaker 2: then I don't know, a foot or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Like you would pick out the boot and the foot,

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Speaker 2: and depending on how liberally they were with their their judgments,

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Speaker 2: they would say, yes, that rhymes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a prompt from an outside source, right,

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Speaker 1: whereas the next one, which logically follows thankfully pristine or spontaneous.

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Speaker 1: That was Russell hurl Bert, kind of a mouthful researcher

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Speaker 1: that coined this one. That is that's just unprompted, spontaneous,

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Speaker 1: and it's a part of what makes us us.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Like that is your genuine true inner voice. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: it just comes out of nowhere, sometimes when you just

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Speaker 2: are talking to yourself and don't even realize you're talking

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Speaker 2: to yourself in your head. Like that's what Herbert Herlbert

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Speaker 2: calls pristine. And there's this really great Aon article about

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Speaker 2: your inner voice that was written by Phil Jacole j A. E.

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Speaker 2: K L. And Phil points out, I'm hopefully hoping I can.

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Speaker 2: We're on first name basis, me and Phil. But he

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Speaker 2: points out that this is leading psychologists to be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: my god, oh my god. If we can study pristine

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Speaker 2: inner voices, like that's essentially like the external, the exterior

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Speaker 2: of the unconscious, and we would be tapping into people's

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Speaker 2: unconscious and other people are like, I think Fernio is like, whoa, whoa.

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Speaker 2: Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Let's just kind

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Speaker 2: of take this one step at a time. Old Ferniho,

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Speaker 2: that's what he's known nas. They call him the breaks.

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Speaker 1: That's right and well, except when he gets excited about

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Speaker 1: something then he yells out Fernie hoo. Maybe before we break,

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Speaker 1: we should talk about these other four because that visc

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Speaker 1: is still they've been revising it over the years and

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Speaker 1: it's still in use for some researchers. But in twenty

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Speaker 1: fifteen there was another researcher name what a great name,

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Speaker 1: mal Gorzada a Polchaska wasl wasil wasel. Maybe they were like,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's categorize it by emotional types, and these

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Speaker 1: are the faithful friend, which has a nice ring to it.

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Speaker 1: That's like your personal strength, positive feelings about yourself.

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Speaker 2: You're a neighborer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The ambivalent parent, which is awful otherwise known as gen

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Speaker 1: X parent, associated with strength and love and caring criticism.

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Speaker 2: So wait a minute, is it the parent of a

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Speaker 2: gen xer or a gen x er as a parent.

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Speaker 2: I'm confused.

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Speaker 1: I would say the parent. I mean, weren't most of

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Speaker 1: our parents fairly ambivalent about us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I would think so. Sure, It's like, oh, this.

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Speaker 1: Is weird because associated with strength, love and caring criticism, right,

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Speaker 1: that's not ambivalent.

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Speaker 2: So here is another problem with this field. People are

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Speaker 2: naming stuff just way off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, wily way off.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And it's hard to

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Speaker 2: remember and understand this stuff if the pieces don't fit

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Speaker 2: together because they're dripping, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: That's gross. Yeah, but it's true. I know. What about

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Speaker 3: the others emotionally ticking proud rival?

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Speaker 2: Okay, And then there's one that was initially called calm optivist,

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Speaker 2: but Pulchasca Waizl did a follow up study testing to

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Speaker 2: see if her initial results were confirmed, and faithful friend,

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Speaker 2: ambivalent parent, and proud rival were all there again in

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Speaker 2: the second one, but optimist didn't show up, so she

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Speaker 2: ended up replacing that with something called helpless child, which

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Speaker 2: apparently is probably the worst of the worst.

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Speaker 3: All right, that's a lot.

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Speaker 2: It is, It was a lot. Do you understand this anymore?

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Speaker 2: Sort of okay, good, well, we're making headway, Chuck.

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Speaker 1: All right, well we'll take a break and see if

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Speaker 1: we can rain this puppy in right after this.

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Speaker 2: Uh okay, Chuck. So, one of the things we're talking

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Speaker 2: about with inner speech is it's easy to kind of

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Speaker 2: confuse it with like say, private speech, where you're actually

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Speaker 2: talking out loud yourself somebody could hear it. But one

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Speaker 2: of the big differences with inner speech and verbal speech

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Speaker 2: is that it's just faster. I guess allegedly for some people.

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Speaker 2: It's not for me. Mine goes very slow and actually

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Speaker 2: slows me down. It's like it goes slow. Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: part of me that has to process the words slows

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Speaker 2: down the speed that I could conceivably go at.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it's just.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's like old erniho. It just kind of

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Speaker 2: puts the brake on everything. But normally, if you compare

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Speaker 2: the two, it should be much faster, just because a

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Speaker 2: lot of times you're using condensed speech, which you know

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Speaker 2: again is you're just using shorthand that you can understand.

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Speaker 2: I think that's where I get tripped up. I don't

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Speaker 2: really do that. And then like physical physiologically, it's just

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Speaker 2: you can think a lot faster than you can speak

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Speaker 2: because you're not moving your mouth, You're not like taking

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Speaker 2: a breath or anything like that. It's just supposedly faster.

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Speaker 2: Is yours faster?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? For sure.

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Speaker 1: There was one person, a researcher who actually endeavored to

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Speaker 1: find out how fast that can get. This is in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety and they found that some participants in the

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Speaker 1: study could think more than four thousand words a minute.

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Speaker 1: And you know, just for context, the world record for

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Speaker 1: fastest out loud talker as a Canadian guy who went

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Speaker 1: to six hundred and fifty five words per minute.

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Speaker 3: So this is wow.

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Speaker 1: Basically you can think up to six times faster than

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Speaker 1: the fastest talker on the planet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's at least twice as much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually did the math. It's roughly six.

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Speaker 2: Was that the guy from the uh dunkin Donuts commercials

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Speaker 2: or the FedEx commercials in.

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Speaker 3: They at now?

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Speaker 1: It's unfortunately just some I mean, hey, I love this guy.

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Speaker 1: It's been a knock him down. His name is Sean Shannon.

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Speaker 1: He's a Canadian guy who who did the to be

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Speaker 1: or not to be soliloqually in twenty three point eight seconds.

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Speaker 2: Wow, well it goes sean.

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Speaker 1: You can't understand anything he's saying, but he can't have

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Speaker 1: judges you know that are like, yeah, he's still saying

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Speaker 1: those words.

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Speaker 2: So I guess then we reach another question, how does

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Speaker 2: inner speech develop? Which apparently when they started figuring this

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Speaker 2: out thanks to a guy named Lev by Gotsky who

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Speaker 2: will meet in a second, it completely changed our understanding

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Speaker 2: of children, because up to this point it was like,

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Speaker 2: do kids learn first and then or does their brain

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Speaker 2: develop and then they learn first? Or do they learn

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Speaker 2: first by did they develop their brain by learning? Clearly

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Speaker 2: I did neither at some point. Right, you can kind

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Speaker 2: of get the gist of what I was saying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought this was super interesting. Child development is

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Speaker 1: just fascinating to me, like going through it now, like

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Speaker 1: more than ever obviously, but for most kids. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, this Lev that got Ski he said we

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Speaker 1: would meet you know what, let's just spring them and

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Speaker 1: come on in love.

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Speaker 3: Hey I'm dead, yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: This is in the nineteen thirties, so he has left

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Speaker 1: us earthwise, but a lot of this has been born

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Speaker 1: out in modern research. But in the thirties he was

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Speaker 1: looking at like, basically, it starts out as private speech,

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Speaker 1: like kids saying things out loud to themselves. And you know,

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Speaker 1: first they start talking just to communicate like I'm hungry,

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Speaker 1: I need to whatever, go to sleep. Actually kids never

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Speaker 1: say that, I want to stay up right, and you know,

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Speaker 1: that's just social communication. But then as they get older,

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Speaker 1: they start sort of privately talking to themselves as an

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Speaker 1: internal motivator. And then eventually that I think around that's

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Speaker 1: between like three and four, and then around six or

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Speaker 1: seven is when kids take that private voice inside their

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Speaker 1: head and that's when the inner monologue kicks off more or.

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Speaker 2: Less right, and then they start to After that they

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Speaker 2: continue to develop and get good at things like condensed

403
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Speaker 2: speech and creating their own self shorthand and stuff like that. Yeah,

404
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 2: it's pretty cool. So again I said that this kind

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Speaker 2: of turned things on our head as far as understanding PJA.

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Speaker 2: He was a very famous French psychologist. He said kids

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Speaker 2: are dumb and then they learned, or their brain grows

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Speaker 2: and then they learn. And this showed the exact opposite

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Speaker 2: that they they developed their brain and their understanding of

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Speaker 2: the world through learning. Through this inner dialogue, and it

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Speaker 2: was by Goatsky, believe it or not, was a Soviet researcher,

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Speaker 2: so the West wasn't exposed to his ideas until like

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Speaker 2: the fifties, and they when they finally came out We're translated,

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Speaker 2: it was like, great, okay, now we finally understand.

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Speaker 3: Right, he's the one that coined the term InterVoice.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, I'm not sure what that is in Russian,

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Speaker 2: but yes, apparently it translates the inner voice.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a property of the Soviet Union. Why

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Speaker 1: I said that as a German.

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Speaker 2: It sounded Russian to me in my head.

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Speaker 1: You know, we mentioned that not everyone has in her

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Speaker 1: speech or develops that it exists, like a lot of

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Speaker 1: things do on a spectrum some people. Emily is a

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Speaker 1: very very She's like, I'm constantly talking to people in

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Speaker 1: my head.

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Speaker 3: Really, I know, I see it happening. You know.

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Speaker 1: The other interesting thing she does I don't think I've

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Speaker 1: ever mentioned on the show. And she was like, you

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Speaker 1: can say all this, I don't really care. She spells

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Speaker 1: out when she's stressed. She'll spell out things with her

431
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Speaker 1: thumb in.

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Speaker 2: Cursive like on a table, like just no, just.

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Speaker 1: Like sitting there, like we'll be watching a TV show

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Speaker 1: and although she's stressed and her thumb will be going,

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Speaker 1: and now I'll not on the not what she's doing

436
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: for years now, I'll be like, what are you writing?

437
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 1: And if it's a scene about like a tense standoff

438
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: in an office or something, she might spelled typewriter or

439
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 1: office or something just that she sees huh. It's not

440
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 1: always like I'm nervous. It's never like I'm stressed or

441
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 1: anything like that.

442
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: So it's a way to alleviate her anxiety. I guess

443
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 2: how interesting. That's cool. I've never heard of that.

444
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, hey man.

445
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: I've said it before and I'll say it again. Emily

446
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 2: is one of a kind.

447
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: We couple up with people, it's and you really dig in.

448
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: You don't have any of those barriers up. It turns

449
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 1: out that we're all just a little strange.

450
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 2: Well how is her air penmanship?

451
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: She ge'ez great. I can read it all. I can

452
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: look at her you know, thumb and just I can

453
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: spell it right out in my.

454
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: Head very neat. Wow, can you really are you just?

455
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: Just no, no, no, no, okay.

456
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 3: It looks like a wow, it looks like some's gone wild.

457
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: Right, nice, too hot for a TV thumb one.

458
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,239
Speaker 1: Anyway, But that's kind of her inner voice too, you know,

459
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: in a way, just manifesting itself physically, but it's still

460
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 1: you know, not out loud. But some people constantly are

461
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: doing this kind of thing, talking to themselves, others sometimes,

462
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: some never. These two researchers, Johann Nedergert and Gary Lupien,

463
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: if you have zero inner speech, they have termed that

464
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: an end of phasia. And they say, and this is

465
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: another kind of frustration, like between five to ten percent

466
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: of people don't have inner speech, whereas Russell Hurlbert, who

467
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: we've met, said, no, it's more like fifty to seventy percent.

468
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: Have inner speech or no, don't have inner speech.

469
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, so that's just that's wildly different.

470
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: It is wild. That's a great term for it again. Wild.

471
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 2: So now Ferni Hooe comes in and says, whoa, everybody,

472
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: I'm not really excited about this having its own term

473
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: anendophasia and means lack endo means innerphasia's speech because and

474
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 2: I think he makes a reasonable argument here when you

475
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 2: come up with a term, especially a Latin term, for

476
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: something the way people be or think or whatever. It

477
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: seems to suggest that this is a condition, maybe even

478
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: a disorder. And he's like, that's not necessarily true, especially

479
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 2: if the majority of people don't have this inner voice.

480
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: So do we really need a name for it? And

481
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: I think Netderguard and Lupian were like, it's a pretty

482
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: cool name, though, can we please keep it in ferni

483
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: hoo's thinking about it right now?

484
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: Right? Well?

485
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: That got me thinking, like, if you have no inner dialogue,

486
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: does that mean like do sociopaths have that?

487
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 3: But I found no correlation there.

488
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: It seems like sociopaths quite often have an inner dialogue

489
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: saying like do this awful thing?

490
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah? Should we?

491
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 3: Who are you?

492
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 2: They have other things though, Like so it's not like

493
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: if you don't have an inner voice that there's no

494
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: thought whatsoever. It can also come in different forms, I think,

495
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: is what they're finding.

496
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they've also found this is Netderguard and Lepian

497
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: and it studied just last year in twenty twenty four

498
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: where they tested they wanted to know how it related

499
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: to memory, and apparently a verbal memory of groups with

500
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: very They tested people very high and very low rates

501
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: of inner speech and found that you have a very

502
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: low rate of inner speech.

503
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 3: You're not going to be as good.

504
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: At just remembering stuff like your lines in a play

505
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: or a grocery list or anything, the poor bastards.

506
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: The thing is, though, is that seems to be at

507
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 2: least as far as they've discovered. Really the only big

508
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: drawbacks is you aren't You don't do well necessarily in

509
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: memory tests or something like that. But even for somebody

510
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: who isn't thinking in like inner speech, where they're talking

511
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 2: to themselves, there's a voice in their head talking, there's

512
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 2: other ways that you can think using what is basically

513
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: some sort of inner inner Well, inner speech is the

514
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: best way to put it, but imagine that without speech,

515
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: without language or words, there's inner seeing. Some people think

516
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: in images, right, uh, feelings like just your emotions, which

517
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 2: I'm kind of like, okay, is that does that get

518
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: you in trouble? If that's how you respond and move

519
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: and behave from the world, Because it's one of the

520
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: big things from inner speech is what we do is

521
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: we prepare ourselves and come up with a plan of action.

522
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 2: What are we going to do next? How are we

523
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 2: going to respond to this? So if you're not thinking

524
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: it over in your head, and it's your emotions that

525
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: that drive you. Like that just seems like it could

526
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: get scary. There's fraut huh, like it's fraud, fraud exactly. Yeah,

527
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: there's unsim unsymbolized thinking. So you've got like you're just

528
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: not you're not thinking like Okay, I need to get

529
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 2: in that car. You just I don't know, I don't know.

530
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: I can't even give you an example here. Uh. And

531
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 2: then the last one that they've mentioned is sensory awareness,

532
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: which is just sensing things and then I guess responding

533
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 2: essentially like an amoeba like that, Oh this it's this

534
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 2: stove is hot, so I'm going to move my hand.

535
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: But imagine nothing in between the heat, the sensation of

536
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 2: heat entering your hand and removing your hand, no thought

537
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: whatsoever between that. That's right. Apparently what sensory awareness is.

538
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: Like huh all right.

539
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: Uh. That that study from last year where they were

540
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: talking about verbal memory made me wonder about dyslexia because

541
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: you know, my daughter has dyslexia, and and I was like,

542
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: I bet you there's a tie there, And I was

543
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: actually right on the money with this one. Supposedly, if

544
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: you have dyslexia, you have very little to know inner

545
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: voice really, so it was fascinating. Yeah, because a lot

546
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: of times they think in images and they think and

547
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: they call it kind of like three D thinking.

548
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 3: Gotcha, So it's less word based, gotcha.

549
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: That's maybe cool. I tested myself on this a little

550
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: bit to find out what I do, Like, I typically

551
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: just think in words.

552
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: I guess, Yeah, a lot.

553
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: Of times I talk to myself, but I think I

554
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: don't know. I think that there's a lot going on

555
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: in there that I'm not cognizant of. I'm really bad at,

556
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: like how I feel and like just understanding, you know,

557
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: what's going on in my head at any given time,

558
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: like really just introspecting, like I do it a lot,

559
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: but I'm not necessarily good at is I guess what

560
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: I'm trying to say.

561
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I can be

562
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 3: like that too.

563
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: See, I don't believe that one bit. I think you're

564
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: a champion at that kind of thing.

565
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: So well, maybe certain kinds. You know how I get

566
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: so complicated.

567
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: I appreciate you trying to make me feel better, but

568
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: you're wrong about you not being good at it. So

569
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: I tested myself to see if I could think in

570
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: just images without words, because I've never really thought about that.

571
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: So some part of me told myself to think of

572
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: a watering can, okay, And I didn't hear it. Was

573
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: just like there wasn't in words. I didn't hear it.

574
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: No one spoke it, I didn't see it spelled out.

575
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: It was just there was some command all of a

576
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: sudden to think of a water and cant, and all

577
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 2: of a sudden, a water and cant came up. And

578
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: the proof that I was not thinking in words is

579
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: that I couldn't think of the word for what I

580
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: was seeing.

581
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Yeah.

582
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: And then some other part of me came in and

583
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: was like, you know, I think you were actually supposed

584
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 2: to produce an image of a flower pot. And then

585
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: I got worried about cognitive decline. And that's no joke,

586
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: Like that was the whole process right there.

587
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: Wow, that is fascinating, And I would imagine hard to do,

588
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: kind of like a Ghostbusters, you know, don't clear your

589
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: mind right and then you get the safe up marshmallow

590
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: man like that. If anything has suggested, I will immediately

591
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: see the word if it says like don't think of

592
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: the word, I'll be I'll think of that word.

593
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I didn't. It was more like not.

594
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: It wasn't like I was saying like, don't do this.

595
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: It was more do this or try this. So because

596
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: there wasn't like that blanket prohibition, I'm not thinking about

597
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: the word. Yeah, it was easier to do. But just

598
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: back to Ruby, So, did you ask her she has

599
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: an inter voice or if she thinks in symbols or whatever.

600
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: No, she's at school, so it didn't come to me.

601
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: But I'll ask her later and let you know, Okay,

602
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: to let me know, text me she yeah, this says

603
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: Ruby says that her inner voice just says find Josh

604
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: kill Josh.

605
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: Burned, Josh, No, she loves you. I know. I love

606
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: her too. I think she's sweet.

607
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 3: I love her too. I think that's what I thought

608
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 3: you were saying.

609
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: Hey, did she know did she like Magdalena Bay?

610
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: She did?

611
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: Did she really? I just figured that she hadn't and

612
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: you were just not mentioning it.

613
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: Now. No, I thought I texted you back. No, yeah, Josh,

614
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 3: it was very sweet.

615
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: Got a text and he said, Hey, I got this

616
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: new artist that I've been listening to.

617
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 3: I think Ruby might like it.

618
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad I was right. For some reason. Every

619
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: time I heard it, I would just be like, Ruby

620
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: would really like this. That does not happen every time

621
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: I listened to something, so I thought I should love

622
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: to say something.

623
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: Oh I could have sworn I texted you, but yeah,

624
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: we listened to it together and she dug it cool.

625
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: Cool, so hey, big plug for Magdalena Bay. Also a

626
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 3: nice place to visit.

627
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: From what I hear, she's great. Is that a place too?

628
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: Are you joking? No, I'm just kidding me, and you're

629
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: getting me all over the place today.

630
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: Back to Russell Hurlbert, that's just so hard to It

631
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: doesn't roll off the tongue. Sorry, even in your head

632
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Yeah, oh yeah in my inner voice. It's

633
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: hard to say too.

634
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 3: That.

635
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: He developed a tool called the Descriptive Experience Sampling. I

636
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: would call it the sampler, but DES that is when

637
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: he sets you down and puts I guess a device

638
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: in the room and it's like, hey, just sit there

639
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: and chill out and do whatever and think about whatever.

640
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: And anytime you hear beep, though, you got to write

641
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: down whatever is in your brain at that exact moment.

642
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: I guess in the idea of just sorting to try

643
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: and hit on the randomness of like what you might

644
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: be thinking at any given time and just log those

645
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: thoughts right then and then they would talk about those

646
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: and he said, maybe this could give me a good framework.

647
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: And when he got the results back, he was like, wow,

648
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: this is fascinating. How just all over the place it was.

649
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: It's so multilayered, it's so varied. People can be thinking

650
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: of a watering can and be saying the words flower

651
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: pot at the same time with no explanation at all. Right,

652
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: sometimes you have multiple voices all talking over each other.

653
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: And he was just like this is he just put

654
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: the device away and walk slowly out of the room.

655
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, So this is a really big

656
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: deal that he was able to come up with this,

657
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: because this is one of the reasons why people were

658
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: so I guess wary of trying to study inner voices

659
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: because they're so subjective. Hurlbert figured out a way to

660
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: like take as much subjectivity out of it as possible. Yeah,

661
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: you know, and I think exactly, And I think in

662
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: the more like the bigger studies that he came up with,

663
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: like you would get a beeper and like turned out

664
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: in the world for like a week or two weeks

665
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: or something, so that you would eventually get used to

666
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: the beeper being there, wouldn't just be like waiting like

667
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 2: I'm right to have this awesome thought like ready for.

668
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 3: When the deeper goes off, you know, good way to do.

669
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: It, Yeah, so that you would like he was genuinely

670
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: tapping into whatever random thoughts are in your head. So

671
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: he also the process also includes extensive interviews. I saw

672
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: like multiple like six seven minutes on one word, one

673
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: thought from one entry. And then they're really careful not

674
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 2: to lead the person and have them, you know, start

675
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: to implant memories accidentally that kind of stuff for revise

676
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: what they are actually thinking, but instead kind of dig

677
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: deeper and deeper and deeper into what else was there

678
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: at the time. And I think the people who are

679
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: participants studies like this are actually surprised from these interviews

680
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: because they didn't realize, like, you know, in addition to

681
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: thinking this word, wait, there was this image over here too,

682
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: and you know it just goes on from there.

683
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's like Rosebud's gotta be more than a wagon.

684
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: It was a sled.

685
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: I thought it was a wagon. Was it a sled? Yeah?

686
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 2: Good lord, you're the movie guy too, aren't you. Man?

687
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: Burl Lives just roll over in his grave.

688
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: Why did I think it was a wagon? It's a slid,

689
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 3: which is really just a wagon with rails.

690
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it is. I think radio fire makes both.

691
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: So who's gonna discriminate? Not mean?

692
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 3: Shall we take a break?

693
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah?

694
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: All right, we'll take another break and we'll talk a

695
00:35:41,239 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: little bit about brain areas lighting up right after this. Okay, buddy,

696
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to lead off this segment, but I'm going

697
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: to hand it right back to you because I know

698
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: when I say the word efference you get excited. We're

699
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: going to talk about efference copies at long last take

700
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: it away.

701
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I had never heard about this before, had

702
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: you same? Okay, So apparently when we think when we're

703
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 2: about to speak right now, without me being cognizant of it,

704
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: there's a part of my brain that is pre arranging

705
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 2: and planning what I'm about to say. Right I have

706
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: no idea that this is going on. I think I'm

707
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: just talking at this point, but there's a part of

708
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: my brain that knows exactly what's going to happen, and

709
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: they set out, they send out what's called sorry, my

710
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 2: brain apologizes for that, what's called an efference copy, which

711
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 2: is basically a blueprint of what I'm about to say

712
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: to the rest of my brain. That includes, but what

713
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: movements I'm going to make with my jaw and tongue,

714
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: and a prediction of what it's going to sound like

715
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: coming out, and then also a basically a blanket statement

716
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: like what you're about to hear is coming from you,

717
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: So it keeps us from being startled. It allows us

718
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: to recognize that what we're saying is coming from us.

719
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 2: And the most amazing part about this is that when

720
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 2: we think to ourselves using our inner voice or inner

721
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: symbols or whatever, but definitely inner voice, I'm not sure

722
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: about symbols now that I mention it, we do the

723
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: same thing. We get basically a cruder version of the

724
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 2: efference copy, but it also includes orders to not move

725
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: your mouth, to not move your tongue, that there's not

726
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 2: going to be a touch sensation, but that everything else

727
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: is like the efference copy contains all the other stuff.

728
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating, and efference copy is not a bad band name, No,

729
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: little brainy it is.

730
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, I could see I'm gonna go to the

731
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: old standby mathrock.

732
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally okay, So as far as the old

733
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: Wonder Machine goes there obviously have done plenty of studies

734
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: where they they always like to see what's lighting up,

735
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: you know, but these are often disappointing to me when

736
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: it comes to stuff like this, because it's like I

737
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: feel like, at this point in our show after so

738
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: many years, even listeners will say, oh, I bet the

739
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: temporal cortex lights up.

740
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 3: That's associated with.

741
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: Memory and hearing in language, and then broke his area,

742
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 1: which we've talked about countless times, is it's associated with speech,

743
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: and yes, those areas light up.

744
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, da da yes. But at the same time, there's

745
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: also different regions that light up as well that wouldn't

746
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: light up when we speak out loud. So it's clear

747
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: that there are it has its own thing, that inner

748
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: voice is different as far as the brain is concerned

749
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: from speech as well, that they bear a strong resemblance

750
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: to one another. And then also they found the brain

751
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: patterns for when we are spontaneously speaking to ourselves that

752
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: Christine in her talk that Herobert mentioned that that uses

753
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: or different regions of the brain light up for elicited

754
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: types where we're like using where we're we're we're rehearsing

755
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: what we're saying, or something like that. Man, my efference copy.

756
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 3: Is is it is it working slow or fast?

757
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 2: It's a little rough around the edges today.

758
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: Okay, you might be wondering about schizophrenia. This is something

759
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: that we've we've talked about on the show before because

760
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: very sadly, many times you will see someone suffering from

761
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: schizophrenia having a conversation out loud, seemingly with someone. So

762
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: it's it's very natural to probably wonder like, oh, what's

763
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: going on there?

764
00:39:59,200 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 3: You know?

765
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: They can call those verbal hallucinations. Is that someone's inner voice,

766
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: And they have done studies and they found that there

767
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: can be an impairment of the process that creates efference

768
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: copies in those cases. I think it's another term as

769
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: corollary discharge, and if you have schizophrenia, can make it

770
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: hard for you to identify that voice as their own.

771
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, kind of what it seems like is happening,

772
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: seems like that's exactly what's happening.

773
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that message is not included in the efference copy

774
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: then also I've failed to mention before. One of the

775
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: things that the efference copy does is say, you don't

776
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: need to pay attention to what is about to come

777
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: out of your head as much like the sound of it.

778
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: It's not coming from you, you don't have to respond

779
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: to it as you would if somebody was talking to you.

780
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 2: And that's another thing that gets lost in the efference

781
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 2: copy as well. They respond to the sound of the

782
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 2: voices in their head in a way that makes them

783
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: feel where they respond to a v as if somebody

784
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: walked up and was talking to them. The problem is

785
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: there's no one there, and they are misattributing their own

786
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: inner thoughts. That's kind of one of the big postulations

787
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: for schizophrenia, at least audio verbal hallucinations associated with schizophrenia,

788
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 2: which is that's a great example right there of why

789
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: studying inner speech is such a big deal. Like, if

790
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,240
Speaker 2: we can figure this out, you could conceivably help treat

791
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: people that much better, you know, I mean, like being

792
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: plagued with inner voices that you think are coming from

793
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 2: somewhere else, especially if they're like commanding you to do things,

794
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: that's a great thing to learn how to treat you

795
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: know that's debilitating. And then also kind of related to

796
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: that is the idea that as we start to learn

797
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: more about inner speech and where it comes from, what

798
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: it does, and all that, that we could conceivably get

799
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 2: better at treating things like anxiety or OCD because those

800
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 2: things have clearly shown to associated with negative self talk,

801
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: that that you can increase your own anxiety and stress

802
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: by basically being mean to yourself or being just having

803
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: a negative outlook on life. And it's I mean, just

804
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 2: from my own experience, it's nuts how illuminating it can

805
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: be when you have somebody point out like do you

806
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: do you hear like how you're how you're viewing the world,

807
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: like in your own head, Like do you hear the

808
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: things you're saying to yourself? And when you become aware

809
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: of it, you can change it. And when you change

810
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: it, it can have sweeping effects on your entire life, one

811
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: of which is treating anxiety and even depression.

812
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I mean, man, it seems like so

813
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: much stuff with the human condition can come down to

814
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: being in touch with yourself and really self aware. But

815
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: you know that can being too self aware it can

816
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: also be a problem. So it's just it's like living

817
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: life is tough. Yeah, well, you know what, man with

818
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: the OCD. You know, I'm a little bit on the

819
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 1: OCD spectrum. Mine doesn't manifest though in negative self talk.

820
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: But I was thinking about my inner voice, and I

821
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: do a lot of with my OCD. It's like efficiencies

822
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: I'll talk about in my head, Like when I'm doing

823
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: something like cooking. In my head, I'm literally saying, all right,

824
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: you're gonna grab the spoon and you're gonna take it

825
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: over here, and you're gonna grab the salt, and then

826
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: you're going to cut that thing. And I'm kind of

827
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: planning out stuff that I'm about to do. But it's

828
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: in my brain. It's all in the in the like

829
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 1: kind of wrapped up as an efficiency, like if I

830
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: do it in exactly just this right way, in this order,

831
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: it's it's the best way to do that.

832
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 2: I do that too. I associate that with perfectionism.

833
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 3: M interesting for me.

834
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: It is at least like I have to do it

835
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 2: as efficiently as possible, and efficiency is a form of perfectionism,

836
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: and that if you do it all at all order,

837
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: it's lucy goosey and why even bother to get out

838
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: of bed.

839
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: Right, But I'll even do that when it's not like

840
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 1: a specific thing, like all right, if you're cooking something,

841
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: I sort of get that. But if I'm at my

842
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: desk sometimes and it comes and goes, I'll be like,

843
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: all right, you're gonna grab the mouse and click on

844
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: that thing, and you're going to answer that email and

845
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: then you're going to grab your pen here man, Like,

846
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: how interesting? All right, I had no idea that we

847
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: had that in common.

848
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 3: Hey, look at us.

849
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: Wow, see what happens when you talk about your inner voice? Chuck,

850
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: We're meant to be I've been asking you to do

851
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 2: this for decades now.

852
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 3: I know it's like I don't want to look at myself.

853
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: Well, that kind of leads us to the purposes of

854
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: inner speech a little bit, right, I Mean talking about

855
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: it clearly helps connect people. But there's there's things that

856
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: we gain from talking to ourselves or just being able

857
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: to do that.

858
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: Sure, and we've kind of touched on them here and there.

859
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: You know, when kids are developing it, they believe that

860
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: it's a way to sort of grow and mature into

861
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: being responsible. Like you start out hearing your parents say

862
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: to go do something, go clean up your room. And

863
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: eventually the more you hear that, you start thinking I

864
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: should really go clean up my room or I'm not

865
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: sure when that's supposed to start, but yeah, at some

866
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: point eventually that will lead to you saying those things

867
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: to yourself like you would as a you know, responsible adult,

868
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 1: like I gotta clean this mess.

869
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 3: Up, right.

870
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. And also I mean executive functioning, like making decisions,

871
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: figuring out the best solution to a problem by simulating them,

872
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: like thinking through your actions before acting, which also oftentimes

873
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: ties into emotional regulation. Yeah, all of this uses some

874
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: sort of like inner voice inner speech. Interheering is another

875
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 2: way that you can experience it. That's a that's just

876
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: that's an enormous role because that's essentially how we navigate

877
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: life as adults.

878
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I already mentioned sort of the

879
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: performance aspect, like if you're if you're about to play

880
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: a game or run a or something like talking to yourself,

881
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: you got this, you're the best, you can do this.

882
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 3: You're gonna run fast. You might have a routine that

883
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 3: you run over in your head.

884
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: That's all your voice, Yeah, exactly, And that can be

885
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: that can really pay off obviously, much more than negative

886
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: self talk and motivation.

887
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's not exactly tied to what you're saying,

888
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: but what you were mentioning before, like how you were

889
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: planning out which action to do next for cooking, and

890
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: then the one boat beyond that. I realized that's why

891
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 2: I had to stop playing video games, because I would

892
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: walk around thinking about how to do it better next time,

893
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 2: and even when I wasn't playing the video game, and

894
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 2: realize like, this is not no way to spend my

895
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 2: mental energy. Like it's one thing to just sit down

896
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 2: and relax and play a video game. And if all

897
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: I if that was it for me and I could

898
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: leave it there, I would totally play video games still,

899
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 2: but I just couldn't leave it.

900
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

901
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, mine comes and goes too, And I haven't thought

902
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: too much about when or why so that I think

903
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: that's interesting.

904
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 2: Do they still call them video games? It feels really

905
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: eighties or nineties.

906
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 3: Uh, I don't know.

907
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: I think it's more used as like like a verb,

908
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 1: like when I game gaming?

909
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I've heard that, but I heard that on

910
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: in a magazine.

911
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think if you said, hey, do you

912
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: play video games? It'd be a very gen x way.

913
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 3: To say that.

914
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll watch wrong with that.

915
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: If you're wondering about you know, because we've talked about

916
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: whether you dream in other languages, if you learn a

917
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: second language, is that a mark of fluency kind of

918
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: ties into inner voice? Generally speaking, you think in your

919
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: or you talk to yourself in your first language. But

920
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: if you are fluent, and you know, let's say I

921
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: was fluent in German, if only and I moved to

922
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 1: Germany at times.

923
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 3: There or eventually I could have an inner voice.

924
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: Is that just talking in a different way. Yeah, not

925
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: with a German accent an American.

926
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: But yeah. So also deaf people apparently, and I would guess,

927
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: especially if you were deaf from birth, they see or

928
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: think in sign language, so they visualize the word but

929
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 2: through signs. That is super cool. And then other people

930
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: can actually they might envision someone like their face, so

931
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 2: they're reading their lips, but they're not hearing anything. I

932
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 2: just think that's just fascinating. They also don't speak at themselves.

933
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's totally fascinating.

934
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: There was also in that same Guardian article with the

935
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 2: woman who was featured with the Italian couple bickering in

936
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,280
Speaker 2: her head. There was a dude and man, I can't

937
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: find his name anywhere, but he I think is the

938
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 2: hero of this entire story. Chuck, his name is Justin Hopkins.

939
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 2: I found it. He has this what he basically calls

940
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: an island in a sea of void, and the island

941
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: is his mind, and his mind turns on when it

942
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 2: needs to. So an example, because I don't fully understand

943
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: how this guy how his mind works, but the best

944
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 2: I can say is he realizes that he's out of milk,

945
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 2: so he needs to go buy milk. So he buys milk, right,

946
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 2: but imagine that being the extent of it. So he

947
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: needs to buy milk, and he goes and buys milk,

948
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: and he puts the milk back in his refrigerator, and

949
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: then he doesn't have another thought until the next thing

950
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: that comes along. He said that he can go hours

951
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 2: without a thought, and so he can just sit in

952
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: front of a sunset and enjoy the sunset, and the

953
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 2: most basic way that you can enjoy a sunset and

954
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: just not be thinking about all the problems he has

955
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: or what he has to do next, or how to

956
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 2: most sufficiently watch the sunset. And this guy is like,

957
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to necessarily live like that all the time,

958
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: because I do enjoy having like an inner life, but

959
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 2: to just be able to modulate it and do that

960
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 2: once in a while. I think that guy's amazing. And

961
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: apparently in the Guardian article they said that he says

962
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: he sleeps like a baby, which I can totally imagine.

963
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: Well, interestingly, I know that I'm drifting towards sleep when

964
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: my inner voice gets really weird.

965
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 2: It's like.

966
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: I'll be thinking of things, and when I start thinking

967
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: about things and I can tell that are just absolute

968
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: weird nonsense. It's almost like pre dreaming. But the problem

969
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: is now I know that's that sleep is coming, and

970
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: I know that's what that signals. So in my brain

971
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: I will start inter talking, going all right, baby, I'm

972
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: about to fall asleep, and that takes me out of it.

973
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 2: So okay, okay, I'm fascinated by this, Like, give us

974
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 2: an example of how your brain starts just becoming nonsensical

975
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 2: or speaking gibberish or whatever that you can recognize you're

976
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 2: starting to drift off.

977
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: Like I'll be drifting and all of a sudden, like

978
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just making this up because I can't.

979
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't get up and write it down. What I

980
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: should do is write it down, but then I've ruined

981
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: my or whatever.

982
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 2: Help you.

983
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: But it's, you know, all of a sudden, if I'm

984
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: just here words or I'm saying here my voice saying

985
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: words like you know, you know, the chicken put on

986
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: a cape and played a little basketball and jumped in

987
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 1: a pot of chili, like complete nonsense, and I will

988
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 1: recognize it's happening and go all right, that means I'm

989
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: about there, and then that takes me out of it

990
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: and then like nab it.

991
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, but a lot of times you can just experience

992
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 2: it and not note it and just fall asleep.

993
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: Or note it and then just not let it rouse

994
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: me too much, and it'll lead to sleep.

995
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 2: Gotcha, man, that's amazing. I've never heard of it. Very

996
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 2: pretty cool.

997
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 3: Oh boy.

998
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: But every time I've said something weird about myself like

999
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: that on the air, like stepping on cracks with the

1000
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: same place of my foot every time with the OCD,

1001
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: I've had people write in and say I.

1002
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 2: Do the same thing, right, So yeah, I think that's

1003
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: that's I was going to say, Like, I know, we've

1004
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 2: been talking about ourselves a lot, but part of it

1005
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 2: for me is like, you know, I want to hear

1006
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 2: from people saying like.

1007
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 3: I yeah, that too, absolutely.

1008
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, oh, one other thing before we go, There

1009
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: was a tweet what's become kind of a famous tweet

1010
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 2: from a few years back, I think in twenty twenty,

1011
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 2: where somebody just basically said some people have an inner

1012
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 2: voice and some people don't. And it revealed this this

1013
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: commonality among people if you don't really have an inner dialogue, monologue,

1014
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 2: inner speech, whatever, you just assume no one else does either.

1015
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 2: And if you do have it, you just assume everybody

1016
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: has it. And it was really kind of eye opening

1017
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 2: to people to find like that's not the case at all,

1018
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 2: that it's basically a spectrum.

1019
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean maybe new research will spawned because

1020
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: everyone was like, oh wait a minute, people are interested in.

1021
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, Fernio said Fernie, ho ooh that's right. Well

1022
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 2: you got anything else?

1023
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a bazillion other things, but we'll just

1024
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: park it right here.

1025
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 2: Okay, it has parked. And since we just parked it,

1026
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 2: it's everyone who has been listening to the show from

1027
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 2: the outset knows we've just unlocked listen new Now.

1028
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: That's right, I'm gonna call this Toledo and this is

1029
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:25,439
Speaker 1: from Alexander Nozar or Alex Alex says, you know, every

1030
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: time Josh talks about having come from Toledo, always thinking

1031
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: about Tony Pacos, which he mentioned in the Fan Theory episode.

1032
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: What wasn't mentioned, however, was and Tony Paco's is what

1033
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: it was a restaurant.

1034
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 2: Right, It's a like a hot dog place, very famous

1035
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 2: in Toledo, and then Jamie Farr made it famous on

1036
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 2: mash That's right.

1037
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: What wasn't mentioned, however, was what makes Tony Pacos awesome.

1038
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: First and foremost, that was founded by a Hungarian immigrant,

1039
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: making it a significant place for Hungarian Americans, especially here

1040
00:53:55,560 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: in Ohio, which has a pretty large Hungarian population in Dayton, Columbus, Toledo,

1041
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: and I believe Cleveland. My family is Hungarian on both sides,

1042
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: with great grandfathers coming over here in the nineteen hundreds

1043
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds. Tony Paco serves not just Hungarian food

1044
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: like Spetzel, but they're well known for their homemade pickles

1045
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 1: and most importantly they're hot dogs. But what makes it

1046
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: truly unique as a fun place to visit is at

1047
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: anytime a celebrity visits, they're asked to sign a hot

1048
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,879
Speaker 1: dog bun, which is then encased in plastic and hung

1049
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: on the wall. It's been a while since I've been there,

1050
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: but I remember Leslie Odom Junior's name, and of course

1051
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: Jamie Farr. So I think you too should go up

1052
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 1: there on some sort of tour and you can experience

1053
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: our awesome food, but also sign a hot dog bune.

1054
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: I don't think they've let us sign a hot dog bune,

1055
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 2: but I appreciate the thought. Kid me, didn't you get

1056
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 2: a key to the city or something. There was a

1057
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 2: listener years back who was trying to get us actually

1058
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: the key to the city, and I don't think it

1059
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: went anywhere.

1060
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: Well, you should get a key to Toledo. I should

1061
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: get a key to Stone Mountain, Georgia. You should sign

1062
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: a hot dog bun, and I should sign a Stone Mountain.

1063
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 2: Plus also we should have the hot dogs while they're there,

1064
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 2: because Alex ain't lying and they're really good. And I

1065
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 2: have to say, if you're ever in Toledo or apparently Dayton, Columbus,

1066
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 2: Cleveland and you aren't in the mood for a hot dog,

1067
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,240
Speaker 2: but there's a Tony Pacos nearby, Go get the stuff

1068
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 2: cabbage because it is top notch, Like you wouldn't think

1069
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: this hot dog place. Why does it have stuff cabbage? Well,

1070
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 2: because it's a Hungarian place and it is really good,

1071
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 2: like really good. Okay, I'm just gonna say it again.

1072
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 2: It's really good stuff cabbage.

1073
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 3: What's it? Stuff with love.

1074
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: Magic, I'm guessing three kinds of meat, probably it is.

1075
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 2: It is very good. Well, thanks a lot, Alex is

1076
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 2: always nice to hear from a fellow Ohiooo. I'm guessing yeah, yeah.

1077
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: And if you want to be like Alex and right

1078
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 2: in and tell us about something we love, like Tony

1079
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: Paco's or whatever, you can send us an email to

1080
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 2: Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

1081
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

1082
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: For more podcasts, my heeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1083
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows