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Speaker 1: Arguments are not something to win. The person in front

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Speaker 1: of you isn't fighting you, They are fighting to feel

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Speaker 1: understood by you.

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Speaker 2: How do we communicate with someone who doesn't want to

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Speaker 2: communicate with us?

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Speaker 1: The people who will use silence as a punishment, That,

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Speaker 1: to me, is the number one sign of low emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you

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Speaker 2: come to become the happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's

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Speaker 2: guest is someone that I've been looking forward to having

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Speaker 2: in the seat ever since I came across his content

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Speaker 2: on social media. I knew I had to have a

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Speaker 2: conversation with him. Today's guest is Jefferson Fisher, a trial

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Speaker 2: lawyer turned communication expert whose simple practical tools have helped

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Speaker 2: millions handle conflict with more calm and clarity. Jefferson is

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Speaker 2: known for breaking down the exact words to use in

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Speaker 2: real life moments when emotions run high. His book The

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Speaker 2: Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More is already changing the

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Speaker 2: way people navigate arguments, boundaries, and difficult conversations. I'm excited

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Speaker 2: to welcome to on Purpose Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, It's great

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Speaker 2: to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Ja. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I really, you know, when I first

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Speaker 2: came across your content on Instagram, I think it was

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Speaker 2: I just thought it was so clear, it was so concise.

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Speaker 2: And I feel communication is one of these underrated skills

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Speaker 2: that we all use all the time. We all need

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Speaker 2: it in every part of our lives, yet no one

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Speaker 2: taught us how to do it at school or anywhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to ask you what has communication unlocked

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Speaker 2: for you in your life and for the people that

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Speaker 2: you help in a way that nothing else could.

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Speaker 1: It's unlocked a life of peace for me. You know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people say you sound very calm. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's because I've been through a lot of hard and

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Speaker 1: that means a lot of hard communication, a lot of

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Speaker 1: hard conversations. The greater tolerance I have for difficult conversations,

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Speaker 1: the greater relationships I'm going to have in my life.

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Speaker 1: For me, communication has helped me be a better husband,

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Speaker 1: a better father, a better friend in ways that only

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Speaker 1: communication can do. And you're right. We go through our

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Speaker 1: whole season of growing up, going to high school, going

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Speaker 1: to college, and all of a sudden you get married

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Speaker 1: and then you look at the person next and you go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I have to talk to you, I have to talk

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Speaker 1: at work. I have to manage people. How do I

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Speaker 1: do that? That's a skill of communication that it has learned.

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Speaker 1: It is not just gifted.

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Speaker 2: Well, you just said that you are good communicator because

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Speaker 2: you've had a lot of tough conversations and hard conversations.

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Speaker 2: I think most of us we avoid tough and hard conversations.

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Speaker 2: We don't even want to go there, and we don't

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Speaker 2: want to get into a tough discussion with our partner,

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Speaker 2: or we don't want to get into a difficult discussion

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Speaker 2: with our boss, or we're trying our best to just

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Speaker 2: navigate a way, and we think that's what good communication is.

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Speaker 2: Why would you encourage people to meet difficult and tough

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Speaker 2: conversations head on?

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Speaker 1: If you don't, the bill always comes due. The bill

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Speaker 1: always comes to. You're gonna have that difficult conversation at

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Speaker 1: the very end when you're at your wits end, or

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Speaker 1: you may never have it at all because there's going

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Speaker 1: to be something in your life that happened that they're

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Speaker 1: not going to be here anymore and what should have

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Speaker 1: been said, That opportunity was lost. We avoid the difficult

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Speaker 1: because we avoid the anks that we feel. But yet

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Speaker 1: when we choose to have the difficult conversation and we

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Speaker 1: get on the other end of it and realize, oh wait,

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Speaker 1: I life didn't fall apart. Oh wait, I'm still here.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, they chose to accept me. Wait they didn't

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Speaker 1: run away. It's a feeling that can't be replaced. When

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Speaker 1: you realize you can be more vulnerable with this person,

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Speaker 1: you can go deeper with this person. Think of the

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Speaker 1: people in your life that you're the closest with. They're

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Speaker 1: the people who seem you're ugly. You know, the hard stuff,

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Speaker 1: the messy stuff. And when you can have that kind

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Speaker 1: of capacity for each other in communication and conversation, you're

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Speaker 1: only going to grow.

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Speaker 2: Well. I think that's the thing, right, Like, the reason

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Speaker 2: we're scared of having a tough conversation is because we're

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Speaker 2: scared of the outcome, and so we've already predicted that

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Speaker 2: I don't want to have that conversation because they're going

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Speaker 2: to break up with me. I don't want to have

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Speaker 2: that conversation because then they're going to know I'm weak.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to have that conversation because I might

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Speaker 2: get fired or I might get looked over. For that promotion.

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Speaker 2: How do we approach tough conversations without an inherent belief

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Speaker 2: of it being a negative result.

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Speaker 1: It's the understanding that it's not my job to feel

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Speaker 1: somebody else's feelings for them. That's what you do when

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Speaker 1: you're afraid to disappoint someone. You're afraid to say the

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Speaker 1: hard thing, the right thing. You'd rather be nice, You'd

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Speaker 1: rather say the thing that sounds good. Those kind of

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Speaker 1: things always have a bitter taste because you realize I'm

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Speaker 1: not being real, I'm not being authentic, And before you

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Speaker 1: know it, you've just been people pleasing before you I

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Speaker 1: know what, you feel less than yourself. Before you know it,

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Speaker 1: you feel lost and you really don't know who you are.

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Speaker 1: And now you're in your mid forties and you have

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Speaker 1: a crisis and go, what is my purpose on life here?

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Speaker 1: Because I've been living it to serve everybody else's needs,

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Speaker 1: not for what's true and authentic in my life.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of someone else speaking to this

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Speaker 2: week goes as sweet of someone. They said they're going

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Speaker 2: through a tough romantic situation in dating someone, and they're

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Speaker 2: scared that if they share how they feel, they may

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Speaker 2: push the other person away.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about that number one. It's a valid fear.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say that that fear isn't valid.

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Speaker 1: I think anybody here they go, well, that's certainly understandable.

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Speaker 1: What if they don't. It's always the what if they do? Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's assume that they do. What happens next? If they do,

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Speaker 1: you push them away? What happens it's seeing that your

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Speaker 1: life isn't going to fall apart. Now, if I come

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Speaker 1: into the conversation and I am not trying to sugarcoat it,

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Speaker 1: and if I'm not trying to make it to where

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Speaker 1: I'm only saying things to placate you, to make you

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Speaker 1: feel good and not being genuine, I've already set up

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Speaker 1: the conversation and I've set up the relationship on fake.

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Speaker 1: I'm just giving you a mask. I'm giving you a

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Speaker 1: character of what I can tell is going to appease you.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be the hero, I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: the fixer. I'm going to be the happy one. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be the one who's always bubbly and can

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Speaker 1: never be sad. And you give them a character when

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Speaker 1: you choose not to be authentic in the conversation, so

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Speaker 1: that the thought of you know, if I do this,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to push them away, and if you do,

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Speaker 1: what happens. That's really what the fear is. Am I

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Speaker 1: enough by myself? That's the underlying fear. And when you

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Speaker 1: realize I can be enough without them, all those fears

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Speaker 1: go away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why we're all walking towards I feel is yeah,

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Speaker 2: am I enough? Am I enough? And it's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly I was talking to that by and I said,

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Speaker 2: you know, after you have that conversation or whether you

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Speaker 2: choose not to, I think self love needs to be

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Speaker 2: worked on either way, because that's at the root of it.

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Speaker 2: What what do you feel You've been doing this for

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Speaker 2: some time. You come from the legal world. What's the

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Speaker 2: number one communication mistake you see people making today?

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Speaker 1: The one that I make too, is that you think

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Speaker 1: that what is said is exactly what's heard, especially in relationships.

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Speaker 1: How many times in a relationship have they kind of

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Speaker 1: repeated back what you said? Well you said, man, man, man,

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Speaker 1: that's not what I said. But I didn't sound like that.

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Speaker 1: That's not how I said it. And when you start

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Speaker 1: arguing that, well yeah you did, yeah, you did, and

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Speaker 1: I wish I had this recorded, you know, I wish

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Speaker 1: this I had this on camera that you could have

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Speaker 1: seen back how you just spoke to me? And instead

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Speaker 1: we just we start fighting over how I said it.

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Speaker 1: The better way to go is to say, what did

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Speaker 1: you hear? What did what did you hear? Oh? Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's that's not at all what I meant. Can I

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Speaker 1: can I have a let me, let me redo that

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Speaker 1: that's not at all what I meant. Instead, we just

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Speaker 1: we split the conversation into something that has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with what you the original source. So the number

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Speaker 1: one communication that fault that I see is assuming that

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Speaker 1: what is said is exactly what is heard. When you

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Speaker 1: asked the question what did you hear? Whether it's even

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Speaker 1: in business or in relationships, you always get a different

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Speaker 1: perspective that makes the connection that much stronger.

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Speaker 2: That is such a great answer. It's such a great answer.

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Speaker 2: I did that. Me and my wife did that exact

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Speaker 2: not we didn't do the exercise as consciously, but we

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Speaker 2: went through that same exact thing. Recently, we were working

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Speaker 2: out in the gym together. We're having a conversation. We

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Speaker 2: heard each other totally differently. Misjudge's tones. I was like

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Speaker 2: being loud because there was music on. She took that

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Speaker 2: as like I was a bit like, you know, a

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Speaker 2: bit triggered or whatever it was. And then we sat

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Speaker 2: down and we talked about it, and that's exactly the

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Speaker 2: conversation we had where I was like, I did not

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Speaker 2: sound like that, and she was like, yeah, you did,

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Speaker 2: like you know, and you know, and then and then

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Speaker 2: you realize that you're so right. You end up splitting

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Speaker 2: the conversation and you end up arguing about something that

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Speaker 2: you weren't even arguing about. Yes, And that's the worst part,

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Speaker 2: because you end up creating something that is now an

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Speaker 2: issue that wasn't even an issue in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it ends up that you will prove yourself wrong.

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Speaker 1: I mean when you say, no, this is exactly how

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Speaker 1: I said it. We don't even really know what our

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Speaker 1: face looks like, you know, when we're talking. Unless you're

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Speaker 1: in a mirror the whole time, you don't know, and

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Speaker 1: so we are terrible judges of our subjective expressions. They say, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not how I said it. No, that's not what

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Speaker 1: it's that's not how I said it. Yes you did, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so that that is to me, it's if you

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Speaker 1: want to know somebody that has strong emotional intelligence, it's

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Speaker 1: how quick they get to asking for a reset, how

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Speaker 1: quick they get to saying that's not my intention. My

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Speaker 1: intention was this, okay. I can see that. The quicker

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Speaker 1: that you get to that, that's somebody who says, I'm

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Speaker 1: okay being wrong.

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Speaker 2: What does it take for someone who always thinks they're

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Speaker 2: right to open up to the idea that they might

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Speaker 2: be wrong.

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Speaker 1: The person in front of you isn't fighting you. They're

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Speaker 1: fighting to be understood by you. They're fighting to feel

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Speaker 1: understood by you. When somebody's clammed up and you have

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Speaker 1: to say you need to change your opinion, you need

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Speaker 1: to change your opinion. You're right, I'm wrong. That's not

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Speaker 1: going to happen. You can't just wish for that. Instead,

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Speaker 1: if I were to say to you, listen, I'm not

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Speaker 1: here to change your mind. Jay, this is what I

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Speaker 1: believe you hear. How just me saying that all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden opens up that curiosity of well, maybe I

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Speaker 1: do want to change my mind. I don't really know.

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Speaker 1: But if I were to say, how can you possibly

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Speaker 1: think that? You really think that that person is the

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Speaker 1: person you should be voting for. You think that, And

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Speaker 1: as soon as I get into criticism, the more I

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Speaker 1: tell you that you're wrong, the more convinced she'll be

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Speaker 1: that you're right. Because most likely, if I want you

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Speaker 1: to change your mind and I say that you're wrong

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Speaker 1: about something, Jay, I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm

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Speaker 1: saying that you're wife strong, your dad's wrong, your parents

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Speaker 1: are wrong, your grandmother is wrong. That thing that you

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Speaker 1: went to when you were a kid, that's a big

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Speaker 1: crystallizing moment in your life, that set your belief system

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Speaker 1: is all wrong, and it's become part of your identity.

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Speaker 1: And so instead of me fighting I think I'm fighting

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Speaker 1: an opinion, I'm not. I'm fighting now your identity. And

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Speaker 1: people will go to the ends of the earth. They

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Speaker 1: will close off everything, They will box their ears to

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Speaker 1: prevent having to change one second of their identity. Why

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Speaker 1: because that change feels extremely scary. That's why evidence doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: When you show people statistics on things, how can you

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Speaker 1: possibly believe this? And they go, I just know it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. They will justify it, they will flip it.

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Speaker 1: They will find ways to take what supports them or

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Speaker 1: reject anything that doesn't, it's because it's now part of

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Speaker 1: their identity. So if you want to change somebody's mind,

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Speaker 1: but when you have to validate them too, you can't

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Speaker 1: argue against their identity. You have to argue against the value.

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Speaker 1: You have to find the value, speak to the value.

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Speaker 1: And three, understand that one conversation is generally not enough

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Speaker 1: if you want somebody to change their mind. It takes years.

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Speaker 1: It takes months, And the bigger the belief, the more

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Speaker 1: time it's going to take.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could agree more. I think. I'm sure you

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Speaker 2: hear this a lot as well. I hear a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, especially people who would read our books, listen

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Speaker 2: to our conversations, follow us on social media. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people want to have conversations with their partners, or

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Speaker 2: their parents or a sibling, but they don't find that

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Speaker 2: that person wants to communicate about that topic or theme

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Speaker 2: or subject. So how do we communicate with someone who

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Speaker 2: doesn't want to communicate with us? Because often, and that

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Speaker 2: could be our partner or parent or someone that we

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Speaker 2: love deeply. How we want to talk to them about

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Speaker 2: something meaningful but they don't really even want to engage.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible it's possible. I get a lot of

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Speaker 1: questions of people who are estranged from usually adult children.

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Speaker 1: There's you know, they're thirty year old son doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to talk to his mom, or a daughter who doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to talk to her dad and they haven't spoken

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Speaker 1: in three years. And every time I have that kind

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Speaker 1: of conversation, it breaks my heart because you can tell

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Speaker 1: and look at this parent they want to have a

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Speaker 1: conversation with their child, and you know, deep down, so

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Speaker 1: does that child. They need that relationship? How do you

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Speaker 1: crack that code? What I've found most successful and what

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Speaker 1: I teach them is I begin with saying I know

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Speaker 1: I'm not and I'm open. And it sounds like this,

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Speaker 1: I know the distance between us, I know things aren't

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Speaker 1: how we both want them to be. I know I've

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Speaker 1: messed up whatever that is you're saying, what is a given?

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Speaker 1: Two is I'm not I'm not asking to change your mind.

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Speaker 1: I'm not asking for an apology. I'm not asking for

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Speaker 1: whatever it is what they think that's what you're after.

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Speaker 1: And three is I'm open. I'm open to a conversation.

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Speaker 1: I'm open, and I'm I'm open to listening. I'm open

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Speaker 1: and I'm open to understanding whenever you can just crack

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Speaker 1: the door open of saying the conversation is here, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes that's not enough. They're not going to do it.

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Speaker 1: And in that case, what I'd like to say is

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Speaker 1: then you have to live out the conversation and understand

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Speaker 1: that if you can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse.

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Speaker 1: You know, if if they don't want to come across

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Speaker 1: to me and they've burned the bridge, well then they're

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Speaker 1: at least going to know where I am, and they're

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Speaker 1: gonna know what I stand for, and they're going to

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Speaker 1: see the light that I I'm going to try to

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Speaker 1: bring even if they don't want to talk.

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Speaker 2: I know I'm not I'm open.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I really like that. Yeah, I really really like that,

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Speaker 2: especially that I'm not rightly. That's such an important one

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Speaker 2: because I feel like half the time it's like, I know,

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Speaker 2: we're not where we want to be, but I'd love

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Speaker 2: it if you.

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Speaker 1: You got it. Yeah, exactly. They're waiting for the you know,

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Speaker 1: I know there's distance, but you just you know, and

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Speaker 1: they're expecting who's gonna apologize first. I think that that

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Speaker 1: for relationships and family and the hard stuff, it becomes

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Speaker 1: this petty fight over. Well, I'm not doing anything until

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Speaker 1: they apologize, and well, okay, you do it at your

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Speaker 1: own peril. Then say goodbye to it. Say goodbye to it,

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Speaker 1: because they both dug in their heels and nobody's going

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Speaker 1: to change unless somebody decides to do something different. And

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Speaker 1: when you can just change the narrative by one percent

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Speaker 1: and say I'm going to go off on a legend,

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Speaker 1: do something different, I've seen more relationships come back together.

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Speaker 1: I've seen more people come back and say thank you

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Speaker 1: so much. I We're actually going to meet up for coffee.

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Speaker 1: She's coming to Christmas this year. Oh my gosh. That

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Speaker 1: what what is life not about? If not that?

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Speaker 2: I really hope everyone's listening and watching, you know, tries

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Speaker 2: that out.

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Speaker 1: If you do that so well, you know I've seen

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Speaker 1: that with You'll say, when's the last time you talked

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Speaker 1: to somebody? Grab your phone? Call him call him now? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: call him now? Why why wait? Would you have to

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Speaker 1: wait to be ready? Call him now? And when you

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Speaker 1: choose to do something different, you choose to be the

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Speaker 1: first they say, oh you know, I'm tired of being

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Speaker 1: the bigger person. Well that's that's life. Then then you

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Speaker 1: do it with the understanding that things are not going

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Speaker 1: to be different unless something is different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I always I always come back to what

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Speaker 2: is the outcome that I want? Yeah, I give the

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Speaker 2: outcome I want is for this person and know how

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Speaker 2: I feel. Then I might have to be the bigger person.

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Speaker 2: I might have to be first, I might have to

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Speaker 2: be apologetic. I might have to be more compassionate. But

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Speaker 2: if that serves my ultimate goal, which is this person

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Speaker 2: knows how I feel, then I should be willing to

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Speaker 2: become anything that's right. But if my goal is to

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Speaker 2: set a boundary and not let someone cross it, right,

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Speaker 2: then I may actually even have to become more guarded.

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Speaker 2: I may have to become more reserved. I I have

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Speaker 2: to become all these other things. And then you say, oh,

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Speaker 2: but I don't want to be reserved. But it's like,

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Speaker 2: but that serves your goal absolutely, And so you've got

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Speaker 2: to know what your objective is or what your what

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Speaker 2: your goal is of any conversation. I know you talk

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Speaker 2: about how winning is never the goal of any argument,

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Speaker 2: even though that's what we all think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, especially being an attorney, and people are like, what

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to do, and that's just not that's not

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Speaker 1: the truth. It's not like it is on TV. You

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Speaker 1: will lose cases. In fact, if you haven't tried, if

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Speaker 1: you haven't lost the case, you haven't tried enough cases,

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Speaker 1: is what they say in the in the attorney world.

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Speaker 1: Because I can't I can't choose the law that applies.

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Speaker 1: I can't choose my client's facts. You have to play

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Speaker 1: the cards that you're dealt. But how advocated is different.

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Speaker 1: What I teach is arguments are not something to win.

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Speaker 1: There's something to unravel. You find nots in conversations. In law,

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Speaker 1: there's this thing called the jury instructions, meaning at the

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Speaker 1: very end of the trial, let's say you've had two

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Speaker 1: weeks worth of evidence, you had openings, all your motions,

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Speaker 1: and you're finally at the end and the jury's about

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Speaker 1: to go back and make a decision on something. They

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Speaker 1: have a document called the jury instructions, and it's written

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Speaker 1: out who's responsible this person, this person, They do this,

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Speaker 1: yes or no. They add percentages, they might add money,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. It is this document that controls the

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Speaker 1: ultimate outcome of the entire case. And good attorneys start

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Speaker 1: with the jury instructions when they first get a new

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Speaker 1: file bad attorneys wait till the very end. Same way

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Speaker 1: in relationships, like you mentioned, if I know where the

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Speaker 1: goal is, everything else becomes fluff, everything else becomes irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: So what if they said that thing two years ago

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Speaker 1: that you could bring up. So what if they you know,

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Speaker 1: set it away, that they rolled their eyes. Can you

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Speaker 1: have a little bit more emotional resilience to understand what's

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Speaker 1: happening in that moment, to not be clouded by the forest,

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Speaker 1: you know, the trees through the forest, to be able

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Speaker 1: to see what's happening in your life. So start with

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Speaker 1: your end, have a goal for the conversation and make

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Speaker 1: sure if I could say with you, let's say you

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Speaker 1: and I are off and I say, Jay, I know

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Speaker 1: we're about to have a difficult conversation, and I want

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Speaker 1: you to know I'm going to be in it here

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Speaker 1: with you. How couraged do you feel of knowing I'm

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Speaker 1: not trying to abandon you in it, I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to push something at you. And when you are able

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Speaker 1: to slow it down and see argument says not something

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Speaker 1: to win, but something to unravel, you find so much

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Speaker 1: more in the connection.

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Speaker 2: If you've been with someone for long enough, they're gonna

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Speaker 2: end up saying something that will trigger you or that

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Speaker 2: will ye doubt Yeah, if you've enough YEA. When your

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Speaker 2: partner says something that triggers you, what do you do?

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Speaker 1: You tell them in a way that communicates it that

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Speaker 1: it sinks in. If something is said to me by

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Speaker 1: Sierra and it triggers me, one is there is a

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Speaker 1: mindset to me in any relationship that you have to

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Speaker 1: have that says, this is a place where I can

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Speaker 1: be messy. This is a place where I don't have

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Speaker 1: to be my best of all the place to be

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Speaker 1: this should be the safest for me. Now, if it's intentional,

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Speaker 1: this person meant to trigger you, then what I like

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Speaker 1: to do is ask the question, did you mean did

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Speaker 1: you mean for that to upset me? Did you mean

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Speaker 1: for that to hurt me? Can you find out real

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Speaker 1: quick if they really did, Because sometimes people say things

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Speaker 1: they don't mean not sometimes they always do, you know,

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Speaker 1: and if you find that you can't even slow down

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Speaker 1: enough to have the discussion of this is what hurt me?

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Speaker 1: You know that this triggers me. I think there's also

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Speaker 1: a difference of if they know that it does and

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Speaker 1: they're using it as a weapon. But that breaches trust

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Speaker 1: versus they didn't know it, and now you need to

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Speaker 1: explain why this reminds you of that time when you

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Speaker 1: were a kid. That is setting you off and you're

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Speaker 1: not really sure how to deal with it. So when

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Speaker 1: it comes to being triggered, you first have to slow

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Speaker 1: everything down. It means I'm going to talk slower. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to lower my volume rather than getting empted up,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to let them know that something else

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Speaker 1: is coming up for me more than what you said.

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Speaker 1: And if you're in a committed relationship that they want

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Speaker 1: to understand you, that's a conversation you're going to have.

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Speaker 2: And I think the natural reaction when someone says something

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Speaker 2: that triggers us is easy to say something that triggers

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Speaker 2: them back, yeah, even if it was on just in

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Speaker 2: the first place. Or we kind of rush to defend ourselves,

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Speaker 2: which seem like very natural human instincts. How do we

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Speaker 2: build that slowness, that patience, that stillness that's required to

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Speaker 2: actually create connection as opposed to do the human thing,

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Speaker 2: which is defend ourselves in right, prove our worth and

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Speaker 2: show we're right. How do how do you even get

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Speaker 2: into that pocket?

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Speaker 1: Your first word has to be your breath in those

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Speaker 1: moments when somebody says something we look like we and

432
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,719
Speaker 1: we get up like that. We suck it in, but

433
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: we don't let it out. Instead, our breath comes out

434
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: when we're yelling. We're raising our voice. When you start

435
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: to yell and somebody says you're yelling, and you go,

436
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: I'm not yelling because you know deep down that's exactly

437
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: what you're doing. If you find that you don't know

438
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 1: how to slow it down, it's your breath. Your breath

439
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: always comes first so that you can actually breathe. There's

440
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: a difference between if you say something that's hurtful and

441
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: I immediately go, me, okay, Jack, what about you? You

442
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: don't remember that time that you really want to You're

443
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: gonna that's that's rich, that's funny. You want to say

444
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: this to me and I start write out you versus

445
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: if I give it five to seven seconds of nothing

446
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: meaning I'm going to breathe and I'm just gonna let

447
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: your words fall to the ground, as if I go,

448
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: are you sure you good with that? That? What you said?

449
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: Is that what you really want to say? Because people

450
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: don't like to hear their words echo in that silence.

451
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: I've seen it countless times where the person who said

452
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: the hurtful thing, and you know what, I've been that

453
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: person too, where you say or they say, I shouldn't

454
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: have said that before you have to say anything what

455
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: I meant to say was, or that that was too far.

456
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: That's allowing you to look more controlled and more confident

457
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: in that conversation. And all of a sudden, when it's

458
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: like this, and stead of it slowly begins like this,

459
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 1: just by the silence of understanding, hearing their words echo

460
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: back withdraws that that sting. It never stings as bad.

461
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like the let your breath become your first word.

462
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 2: That's great, And it's such a it feels like again

463
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: it keeps going back to that idea of if you

464
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 2: think every conversation and you write about this right at

465
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: the beginning of the book, if you think every conversation

466
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 2: is about winning and about being right, the goal is

467
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,719
Speaker 2: so skewed that you can't possibly take a breath because

468
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 2: to you, you're just losing, Like a breath is just

469
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: losing time, it's losing energy, it's losing momentum, it's just

470
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 2: losing And so again it goes back down to how

471
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: do we need to really reframe our mindset to say

472
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: not every conversation is about winning and being right. Conversations

473
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: are about understanding and seeing someone and connecting and finding

474
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: a common ground. And it's just not how we're wired.

475
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: No, it's not how we're wired. It takes discipline. It

476
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: takes real discipline. When I hear people take a breath

477
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: before they respond, I know what's about to come out.

478
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: Is has a much more heavy footing to it. If

479
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: you were to just ask me, you know, how is

480
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: your day or how are you doing it? Am I good? Good,

481
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: I'm great, everything's good, and I have that quick response.

482
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: And if you instead were to ask me how's your

483
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: day and I went, I'm good, yeah, I'm good. Now,

484
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: what's the difference? Same thing. I just I use my breath.

485
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: I slowed it down I call my nervous system, and

486
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: as a secondary benefit, I also calmed down yours.

487
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

488
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: And so most of the time when you feel that

489
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: rise coming, you have to slow down the conversation. So

490
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: that to me, the hotter the fire burns, the more

491
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: you have to spread out the colds because it's slowing

492
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: it down. Even asking can we can we slow this

493
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: down for a second. Can I take a moment just

494
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: to I'm here with you. I just need a second

495
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 1: to think. What follows after is never how it sounded before.

496
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: If your partner is giving you the silent treatment, how

497
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: do you engage.

498
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,959
Speaker 1: Depends if the silent treatment is there for a reason

499
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: that some people you kind of have to do that

500
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: the gray rock on that there you can't be you

501
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: can't reason with them. So I'm not saying that silent

502
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: treatment is not there for a good reason sometimes, but

503
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: let's say it's there to hurt you. You people who

504
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: will use silence as a punishment, they're upset you did

505
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: something and they just go, okay, I'm just not going

506
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: to talk to you anymore. That, to me is the

507
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: number one sign of low emotional intelligence. Is if you

508
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: can't even have the ability to say, I need to

509
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: take a break for a second because that really upset me.

510
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: I'll text you this afternoon, I'll text you tomorrow, I'll

511
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: call you tomorrow, versus just ghosting just because what it

512
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: does is it puts the other person in position of

513
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: trying to beg trying to plead, and then what happens

514
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: to that other person they desperately want you to communicate,

515
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: So what do they do. Most of the time they

516
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: say something super flagrant, like a bad foul. They say

517
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: something that is really harsh, just in hopes that you

518
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: come back in. That's it. They just want that text back. Okay,

519
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: he's still there, still reads my text, He's still whatever

520
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: it is. And so if you really are somebody who's

521
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: you're trying to get through the silent treatment, respond to

522
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: I see that you're giving me the silent treatment. I

523
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: see that you've gone quiet on me. I'm going to

524
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: give you space. I'm ready to have the conversation when

525
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: you are. Now there's a difference of somebody taking an

526
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: hour to get back with you taking five days to

527
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: get back with you. Well, that's something different. That's somebody

528
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: who has chosen not to be connected. Because if I

529
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: really want a conversation with you, a real relationship with you,

530
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm not going to put you in the position of begging.

531
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: That's such a great note that if someone wants to

532
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 2: be in a relationship with you, they'll never put you

533
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: in a position of begging.

534
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: Never, They'll always stay interested. You know. It's it's like

535
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: we've for people who are married, let's say, or in

536
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: a big relationship. It starts with me being very interested

537
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: in you. I'm going to want to know your favorite color.

538
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to want to know what you like to eat,

539
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 1: what you like to wear, I want to know about

540
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: your your family, I want to know all these things

541
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: about you. I'm so interested why because I want to

542
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 1: understand you. And then we get happy, and then we

543
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: just it becomes a measure of how good can I

544
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: feel with you? And the good and then you get

545
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: married and it's better, it's for better or worse right,

546
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: and then you just realize, I don't really like this

547
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: worse part. I really just like the better part. And

548
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you realize that things get hard,

549
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: and you're in year seven of your marriage and you're

550
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: fourteen of your marriage, and you feel further drifted apart

551
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: because really you became less interested in them. You didn't

552
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: get interested in the hard you were just interested in

553
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: what was the basics. You would go with the basic facts.

554
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: You weren't good for the deep stuff you were. It

555
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: gets to be where if you really want to know

556
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: and test the strength of a relationship, it's not the

557
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: measure of how good do I feel in the good times,

558
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: it's how long can I sit with them in the

559
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: hard times? And when I can sit with you? And

560
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: what is the deep struggle when we're both crying, when

561
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: we're both three hours into the argument and going, I

562
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: don't understand why I can't communicate with you? How did

563
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: I ever like you in the first place? That's real,

564
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: that's raw, And if I can still sit with you

565
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: in it, that's a type of connection that that will

566
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: last forever. It's you know, I talked to so many

567
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: couples and even older couples of you know, how do

568
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: you how do you do it with communicating? How do

569
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: you how do you do communication? So well? It's never

570
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: we have really big conversations, you know. It's never that.

571
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: It's we know that things are going to be hard,

572
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: and we choose to stick through the hard People give

573
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: up too easily. I mean, you're married, I'm married. It's

574
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: they're a fight. They are an absolute fight, not between

575
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: each other, but for the relationship. It's the relationship versus

576
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: everything else, attention, time, obligations, finances, kids, It's the relationship

577
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: versus everybody else.

578
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: Is there anything someone can ever say that shows you

579
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:49,479
Speaker 2: they're not your person.

580
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: I don't care about you if they really don't have

581
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: an interest in caring about you. If you hear that

582
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: I'm upset, are you here that your wife so said

583
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: you should care? I'm not talking about the surface level, like, okay,

584
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: I don't care about that right now, I'm talking about

585
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: the deep. It does not affect me. When you're on

586
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: the ground and upset and face on the floor and

587
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: you're crying, and it doesn't affect you because you don't care.

588
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: That to me is they're they're not your person. If

589
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: you want to know if somebody is your person, have

590
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: they asked how you're doing. I've seen so many people

591
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: go on dates or have relationships and they said, yeah,

592
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: they were nice, But I don't think they ever really

593
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: asked about me. They just talked about themselves. Is they

594
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: just needed to, you know, rent an ear for a

595
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: little bit because they just made it all about themselves.

596
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: Those are people that you know are not going to

597
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: be your people. If you want to know if they

598
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: are your person, you don't have to ask them. Why

599
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: don't you ask about me? They will naturally want to

600
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: know more about you. You don't have to ask at

601
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: this one time where a woman asked me, you know,

602
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: I went on a date and he really didn't ask

603
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: about me, you know that much. I'm not really sure

604
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: what to do. I said, don't go on another date. Like,

605
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: if they're not going to just ask about you and

606
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: the basics, how could they ever want to know about you?

607
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: And things are hard? When they will be hard, there's

608
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: no getting getting around it. They will be hard. That's

609
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: how you know if they are your person, they're willing

610
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: to have the deep, hard conversation.

611
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: How do you know if your relationship just has so

612
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: many arguments that it's beyond saving. How do you know

613
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: that it's going too far.

614
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: When you look back and the other person is ten

615
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: miles behind you? Explain that when you're doing it alone,

616
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: that you've read all the books, you've read, all the material,

617
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: you're listening to, all the podcasts. You might be listening

618
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: to this episode and going, I desperately want to heal

619
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: my marriage, my relationship. I don't know what to do

620
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: because most likely they're the only ones with an ore

621
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: in their hand trying to paddle, and the other person

622
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: it's just in the back with their arms folded. I

623
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to be here. Does it not bother

624
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: you that we are in conflict right now. I mean,

625
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: I don't really care. It's really your fault. And they

626
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: feel like they're the only ones that are there. These

627
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: people that it doesn't matter what technique you do, it

628
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how much you push. They are someone that

629
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: will never try and reach for you. So how do

630
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: you know when it's enough that you've put out your

631
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: hand and they're unwilling to take it, and you just

632
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: look back in the rearview mirror and they're okay with

633
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: leaving it.

634
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the hotpies someonimes, people show these

635
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: glimpses of rays of hope and then you believe that,

636
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: and then they go back to being the way they were. Yeah,

637
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: And they kind of oscillate between showing you they care

638
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: momentarily but then going back to not caring. And it's

639
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: so hard to know which one to invest in and

640
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: which one to believe.

641
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: I think that the more honest of a conversation you

642
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: can have with that person, Yeah, the more honest reflection

643
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 1: of what kind of relationship you have, Like we talked

644
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: about at the beginning, Jay, if if I can't have

645
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: the hard conversation with you, then how deep is our relationship?

646
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: You know, if look at the relationship itself, if it's

647
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: only surface level conversations, I'll show you a surface level relationship.

648
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: But if you're willing to have the hard talks, no,

649
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: I can show you a much deeper relationship. What's your

650
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: capacity for the difficult? And Yeah, people will show you

651
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: the glimpses in conversation of oh there's that person, there's

652
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: that person that I like, and then it's gone. Well

653
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: that's because it's it's only side effect. It's it's not

654
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: the main symptom. Yeah, they are. They're only putting on

655
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: the show to keep you entertained. They are. It's like

656
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: a slot machine, you know, they just want to keep

657
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: you addicted, just for a little bit longer. And you

658
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: have to look back and go, what am I? What

659
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: am I getting from this? In real time? What am

660
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: I truly getting from this? Am I? Am I enough?

661
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: Just by myself? I think that's the deeper issue of feeling.

662
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: If I don't have this person, who am I?

663
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's why we don't se how we feel.

664
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: It's why we mold who we are. It's why we

665
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: tolerate bad behavior and bad words and bad communication because

666
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: we don't feel like we're fulfilled without them, so we'd

667
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: rather have a painful existence with them than a potentially

668
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: painful or long term non painful existence without them. And

669
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: I appreciate what you're saying because it shows that there

670
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: are real ramifications and consequences to poor communmunication. Yeah, because

671
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us will just tolerate and

672
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: elongate those periods, hoping things will just get better or

673
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 2: go away. But the reality is that people don't change

674
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 2: their communication patterns that quickly. Yeah, And that's a harsh reality.

675
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: It's a harsh truth.

676
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: Things don't change if things don't change. I know that

677
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: when you have those moments where I wish things were

678
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: were different in our communication. Yeah, it takes that takes time,

679
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: that takes real, raw vulnerability. It is my belief that

680
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: love is self disclosure. If I really want you to

681
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: know me, I'm going to disclose everything. And if I

682
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: want to know you, I need you to disclose everything.

683
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: I need radical honesty in this relationship to know that

684
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: I'm never going to be too much. They need to know.

685
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: My wife needs to know she's never going to be

686
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: too much. And when you can create the element en

687
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: of safety in conversation. You you create a relationship that

688
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: can be impenetrable to anything from the outside. When things

689
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: get stressful and stuff and that tension, you you kind

690
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: of bond together, right, But if there's a source in

691
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: between you and you can't address it, if you can't

692
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: take care of that, it's it's never the outside and

693
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: it's always the inside out that that ruins you.

694
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you made me think of a moment where

695
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 2: sometimes if we're if we're doing an interview or maybe

696
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: even if we're talking or talking to a friend and yeah,

697
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: my wife, and someone will ask us about a relationship

698
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: with my wife or someone like, oh, I can be

699
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: a lot, like she as she talked about herself. I

700
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: can be a lot. I can be too much. And

701
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: my honest reaction is you are not a lot at all.

702
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: And she were like, no, no, I can't, and now

703
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: we'll get to it. I'll do it. But I'm like

704
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: she's like, yes I am, and I'm like, no, you're not.

705
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: And it reminds me because it's it's that same thing,

706
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: like I appreciate her because I don't think she's a lot.

707
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 2: Like there's not a moment where I'm like, oh, you're

708
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 2: being too much, right, Because you're right. I want her

709
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: to be herself with me with what she's going through

710
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: and trust that she can share that and express that.

711
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: That's how you know that they're your person. When they're

712
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: not too much for you, you know you have capacity for

713
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: all the range of everything that they are will be

714
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: in what they have to offer. You know their strengths

715
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: as well as their weaknesses, especially the weaknesses because you

716
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: and I we have many.

717
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're saying that if if you don't have

718
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: the capacity to handle all of someone, then they may

719
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: not be right for you and you may not be

720
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: right for them.

721
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Yeah, if there is a mismatch in

722
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: capacity to deal with the messy, right, they say, if

723
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: you can't be with me in my hard times, then

724
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,720
Speaker 1: you don't deserve me at the best. Right. That's absolutely true,

725
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: especially in conversations. If I can't have the grace the

726
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: capacity by you for me to say the wrong thing

727
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: and you realize that I did say the wrong thing

728
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: and there's a place for me to apologize, I mean,

729
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: repair has to happen. Yeah, repair has to happen. So

730
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: that's it's all me to do that now. If I

731
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: know that I don't have the capacity in that moment

732
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: to absorb everything that is happening, that's not going to work.

733
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: It's not it's not for lack of love, it's a

734
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 1: lack of capacity.

735
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: What should a healthy repair conversation look like? So, if

736
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: you're going to repair with someone because you said something

737
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: you don't mean, or someone's going to repair with you

738
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: saying something because they said something they don't mean, what

739
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: should that conversation sound like? From them? And do yours

740
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 2: based on who did the mistake?

741
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: Ninety nine percent of the time, our arguments are not

742
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: what we're arguing about. They are about the hidden need,

743
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 1: the need to feel understood, the need to feel heard,

744
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: the need to feel safe by that other person. And

745
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: things go so south when I pick up the frustration

746
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: or I pick up the reaction and not listening to

747
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: the need. Every one of us, ourselves included, we go

748
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: into conversations with these hidden fears of am I enough?

749
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: Am I enough? If I get it wrong? Am I enough?

750
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: If I look scared? Or I don't know what to

751
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: do or don't know what to say? Or will I

752
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: be abandoned? Are they not going to want me or

753
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: do they not really care? We come in every single

754
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: time to one of these conversations, and if I'm just

755
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: responding to the reaction rather than addressing the need, there's

756
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: always going to be a mismatch. There's always going to

757
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: be conflict that is now coro to the very fabric

758
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: of the conversation. I say, for example, in a relationship,

759
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: somebody goes, even do you even care? Like I don't

760
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: even know? Do you even care? And what is the

761
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 1: guy that go oh this again? Really do I care?

762
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: Like?

763
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: Okay, this, okay, this is so stupid. And what you're doing,

764
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: you're you're tearing the very fabric of the relationship when

765
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: you are dismissive over how there's a real feeling. So

766
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: when somebody is sharing that kind of question with you

767
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: and you treat them as if that question is real,

768
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: because it is, you change everything. How do you model

769
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: repair that? You model it by saying I can totally

770
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: see how you think that. I can see how you'd

771
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: be frustrated, you know, if if that's the way you

772
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: heard it, I don't blame you for being upset about it.

773
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: Of course you'd be upset about that. It sounds like

774
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: that sounds really frustrating, that sounds scary. I get the

775
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: feeling you feel really hopeless right now, and it's like, yes,

776
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: that is exactly how I'm feeling. You just you want

777
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: somebody to understand how you're doing. I don't need to

778
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: agree with you to understand you. I don't need to

779
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: fix the problem to meet the need. I just need

780
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: to slow down long enough to put aside the frustration

781
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: and the reaction and see the wound.

782
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: It's so clear that if we simply went into every

783
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: conversation or the next conversation just trying to understand, how

784
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,439
Speaker 2: much you would be solved. Yeah, because like you said,

785
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: everyone's just trying to get you to understand them, whether

786
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: they're shouting. There's that beautiful statement that I love from

787
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 2: Russell Barkley where he said that the people that need

788
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 2: the most love will ask for it in the most

789
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 2: unloving ways.

790
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: That's right. It's slowing down the moment to say what

791
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: do they need right now that they don't have the

792
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: words to ask for? What are they asking for that

793
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: they don't have the words to say? And when I

794
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: can stop, say what is happening here? You think we

795
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: have two kids? All right? Seven and five. And when

796
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: my son seven was let's say three, right, and if

797
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: he was crying, yelling, throwing something, yelling, no, throwing a fit,

798
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: you think I was going, I cannot believe that. You're

799
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: raising your voice right now? Are you kidding? You're crying

800
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: at me? Can you like, do you not see all

801
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: the things I'm doing? No? I go, Oh, he's hungry,

802
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: he's upset, he's scared, you know, he's he's sleepy. It's

803
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: his bedtime. It's the same thing. It's the same basic

804
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: human needs and every single one of us it is.

805
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: I will shout it to the rooftop. They are not

806
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: fighting you. They are fighting to feel understood by you.

807
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: And when you can address that understanding by using words

808
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: of repair, everything changes. Repair, validation. Validation is not weakness,

809
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: It is repair. And that's the measure of a true relationship.

810
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: How quick can I get to repair? Relationships don't fall

811
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: apart because of one big failure. They fall apart because

812
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: of the hundred micro moments where repair could have happened

813
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: but it didn't.

814
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, These little cracks.

815
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's little fissures. It's the paper cuts that you

816
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 1: go five years, ten years, thirty years and you look

817
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: back and go, but there's just been so much. How

818
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: can I possibly address that. There wasn't some big moment.

819
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: It's all these little moments for repair that you just

820
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: chose to go by. That's why every single one is

821
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: truly important. So when you get dismissed them and go,

822
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: really this, oh, here we go again, here she goes,

823
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: you're just you're choosing to not repair. And if you

824
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: understand and sign, can sign your name to a piece

825
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: of paper that says I'm choosing my frustration over her piece,

826
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: sign your name to it. If you can sign that

827
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: with a straight face and give it to her, then congratulations,

828
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: you've lost the relationship. That's what you're doing. You're signing

829
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: your name away to the end of it.

830
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk a bit about parenting because you

831
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 2: mentioned it earlier with estranged family members and things like that.

832
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: One of the biggest interactions people experience with their parents

833
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: is feeling judged. So a lot of the communication that

834
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: parents have if people don't have great relationships, or even

835
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: if they do, is judgment, Like it may even be

836
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: in their tone or did you see what someone so

837
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: is doing? Like they just you know, got married or

838
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: they got a new promotion, or it may just be like, oh,

839
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: you still with that same guy, like you you know,

840
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: And it's and I think this feeling of judgment is

841
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 2: the opposite of understanding. When they judge someone, it's saying

842
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: I already know you, I'm already seeing you a certain way,

843
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to let you show me who

844
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 2: you are, right, I'm projecting my viewpoint onto you. So

845
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 2: it's so hard and people struggle to communicate that with

846
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: their parents because we say things like well, will you

847
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: just leave me to do my thing and will you

848
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: just stop like you know, and then the parent goes, hey,

849
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to look out for you. I'm trying

850
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 2: to do what's best for you, and you're like, yeah, both.

851
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 2: How do we set boundaries with people that we love

852
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 2: and we know love us, but we can't keep feeling

853
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: that judgment.

854
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: Different level of boundaries that need to be applied. One

855
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: is the boundary of time and space. If it's something

856
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: that's really bad, I'm not going to be at the

857
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,919
Speaker 1: family reunion for four hours. I want to go say

858
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 1: hi and leave when I need to leave. Distance is okay, Yeah,

859
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: distance is okay. If that's what's required for you, certain

860
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 1: topics of conversation not going to be in the cards

861
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: for you, And that's okay. The second is, at least

862
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: if you can acknowledge that for parents, now that I

863
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: am one, judgment is a poor way of showing love

864
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: and care. That's that's the deeper rooted feeling is I

865
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: desperately want to make sure you're okay.

866
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: I desperately say that again because that is so good.

867
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,959
Speaker 1: That judgment is a very poor substitute for love and care,

868
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 1: because that's the deeper need. Well, shouldn't you you know,

869
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: you really should do this. You really should do haven't

870
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 1: you seen what so and so is doing? It's it's

871
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: deep care for you and how you are. Even though

872
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: it's it's what they would want, it doesn't mean that

873
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 1: matches what you want. And that's that's the major riff,

874
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: right there, is if you can set aside what they're

875
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: saying and instead hear the value. So let's apply this

876
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: to the same framework. Rather than responding to what we

877
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: are interpreting as the judgment, and instead we respond to

878
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 1: the value, the need, the care, the love for you.

879
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: All of a sudden our response becomes different. So if

880
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: let's say somebody brings something up at a family dinner

881
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: that you know is just it's a time bomb, they

882
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 1: just they've now exposed this. Okay, I guess we're having

883
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: this conversation. Okay, everybody, I guess we're having this conversation now.

884
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: Instead of that, you use the framework of I can

885
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 1: tell blank is important to you, and insert that blank

886
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: into whatever category you're talking about. I can tell that

887
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: my well being is very important to you. I can

888
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: tell that the kids and how I raise the kids

889
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: is really important to you. I can tell that the

890
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 1: kids are important to you. I can tell that my

891
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 1: financial my security is important to you, and all of

892
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: a sudden, what they were judging about kind of goes away.

893
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: I mean, mothers will worry you to death. They wouldn't

894
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: be a mother if they didn't. Yeah, I mean, they

895
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't be doing their job, so to speak. Right, They say,

896
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: the hardest thing about parents is that they had parents,

897
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: and maybe you wish, maybe they wish deep down that

898
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: their parents cared. They wish their mom or dad had

899
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 1: been as invested as they are.

900
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: Now.

901
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: What is different is when that judgment turns to demands

902
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 1: and turns it sours the relationship instead of them giving

903
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: you the grace to make decisions. I think part of

904
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: love of a parent is you have to allow them

905
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: to make mistakes. I mean, then you do everything else

906
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: for them. And maybe with parents it's the fear of

907
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: not being relied upon anymore. I now have to just

908
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: let this thing float in the water, and I can't

909
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: ever control it again. That's very scary. Maybe instead of

910
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: being so upset about their judgment, you see it as

911
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: something of maybe they're feeling they don't know who they

912
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: are anymore without having somebody to take care of, and

913
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: maybe I just need to speak to that mom, dad, Hey,

914
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: thank you for everything that you've poured into me. When

915
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: you speak to you've done everything that you can. I

916
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 1: know that you've done the best of you. You can

917
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: imagine the kind of conversations that can happen, because most

918
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: of the time when they in my experience, when parents

919
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: are nitpicking, really what they're asking for is for you

920
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: to fulfill the touch that deeper connection. I'm not doing

921
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: enough for my child, And so when you can say, hey,

922
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: you're a good mom, Hey you're a great dad, and

923
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 1: remind them of that, I think the conversation is always

924
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 1: going to go better.

925
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 2: I love that, and I hear people feeling like it

926
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 2: can just be so exhausting to have to translate whatever

927
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: one is saying in an emotionally mature way and then

928
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: respond to them, almost parenting them. Oh, no doubt, but yeah,

929
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 2: what you're saying is true that. Yes, it's exhausting. Yes

930
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 2: it takes time, Yes it takes effort, but what's on

931
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: the other side is so much more worthy than continuing

932
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: to do what we're all doing right now. Isn't getting

933
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: anywhere and isn't going anywhere.

934
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. I definitely subscribe to the mindset of what is good,

935
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: is worth whatever it takes, and if it's not, then

936
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: it's then it's not. You might hear what I said,

937
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: and good look to everyson. Yeah, more power to you. Man.

938
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: That sounds exhausting. I always have to do this with

939
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: my parents. I'm not saying every time. There are certain

940
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: times where no, you need to get in get out. Yeah,

941
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 1: they bring up that topic and my favorite to use

942
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: is maybe so. I use the phrase maybe so all

943
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: the time they give me a piece of advice or something,

944
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: or you maybe it's a stranger, whoever, it's yeah, maybe so.

945
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: It has a way of just diffusing everything. You've acknowledged

946
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: what they said, you heard it, I didn't argue with it.

947
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, maybe so. Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that.

948
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 2: Thank you.

949
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah maybe maybe maybe so. It has a way of

950
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: just diffusing it. And now they feel like, oh, okay,

951
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: well I said what I need to say, and then

952
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: I'm good.

953
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I wish I had that one back in

954
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 2: the day. I remember with my extended family, it always

955
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 2: be telling me that I told them I decided to

956
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: become a monk, and I'd always hear this, it's the

957
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: worst decision you're ever going to make. It's still you know,

958
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: and and I'd always just say you're right. Yeah. Probably

959
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 2: wish I said maybe so because I didn't want to

960
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 2: agree with them, but that's all I had in my

961
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 2: vocabulary there. Yeah, I'd be like, yeah, you're right, maybe

962
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 2: you're right, like you know, but I like maybe so

963
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: a lot.

964
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe so always works. I also like, i'd rather

965
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: hear about you.

966
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good too.

967
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: I use that one a lot. And anytime the dinner

968
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: table might turn a little bit more political, its like,

969
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: you know, I'd rather hear about you yeah. Nobody ever

970
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 1: shies away from talking about themselves.

971
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 2: How do you you talked about? Sometimes distance, sometimes not engaging.

972
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: How do you say no without feeling guilty? Because I

973
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 2: think the challenge we have is a lot of us

974
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 2: want to say no, but then we feel bad for

975
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 2: saying no. We think this person gave me so much,

976
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 2: they are trying their caring, and then we talk ourselves

977
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 2: out of it. But then we just walk into a

978
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: trap almost or walk into it, and then we go, oh,

979
00:52:58,239 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 2: I knew that was going to happen. I should have

980
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 2: said no. So how do you say no without feeling guilty?

981
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: If you believe that the person truly cares about your

982
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 1: well being in your life, then they'd want you to

983
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: say no. If you need to say no, imagine if

984
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: that's the relationship you thought you had, that they were

985
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 1: always worried about your feelings, that they actually weren't being

986
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: real with you. And now what kind of relationship is

987
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: it if you can't be authentic enough actually share your mind.

988
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: Saying no is very difficult depending on the context, no doubt.

989
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: What I strive for when it comes to telling people

990
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 1: no is to lead with the no first. Like let's

991
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: say I needed to invite you to something, or let's

992
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 1: say you needed to invite me to something, and what

993
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,919
Speaker 1: do most people say, Oh my gosh, thank you so much.

994
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I'd love to, but I can't. You know,

995
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: I have all this stuff. I'm so busy I have,

996
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: and it's almost like, hey, look if you couldn't go,

997
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 1: just saying you couldn't go, I don't need all this

998
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 1: extra now it just sounds and authentic that you've given

999
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: me so much. Because why they were afraid that you're

1000
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: going to be disappointed by that? Start with to know first,

1001
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: I can't make it. Thank you for inviting me. I

1002
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: can't make it. Thank you so much. And rather than

1003
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: I love to, but I can't. Butt has a way

1004
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 1: of just deleting everything that has come before it. And

1005
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 1: I feel that if I need to say no to something,

1006
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: in my mind it's you want me to say no

1007
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: to this because I won't. I'm not going to be

1008
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: my I'm not gonna be my best. If you really

1009
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable about it, then say, I've made a promise

1010
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: to myself of X, I've made a promise to myself

1011
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: that I'm going to be home more often, made a

1012
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: promise to myself that I'm gonna use this hour to

1013
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: do X, Y and Z. People don't argue with promises.

1014
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: They'll want you to break promises, including promises that you've

1015
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: kept to yourself. And saying no is as easy as

1016
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: just saying no. It's the no because that gets you

1017
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 1: in trouble. No, it's just you know, it's because I

1018
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: have to go feed my cat, and you know I

1019
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: have this plant that I water, and it's you. You

1020
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: give up all these excuses that end up diminishing your

1021
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: your credibility, rather than just saying I can't make it. No, no,

1022
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: thank you, not for me, can't do it. Sometimes the

1023
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: kindest thing you can do is be as direct as

1024
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: you can be.

1025
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 2: I agree with you, and I had to do that

1026
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 2: recently as well. And you always just don't want to

1027
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 2: let someone down and you don't want to, you know,

1028
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: make them feel bad you And you're so right. I

1029
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 2: I always tend to just commitments I've made to myself

1030
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: because I think because it's true, and I think you're

1031
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 2: right when you say but it feels like, well, I

1032
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 2: love that, but this is more important.

1033
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: It's yeah.

1034
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,919
Speaker 2: And when it's a promise to yourself. It's I'm trying

1035
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 2: to keep this promise to myself. And everyone knows how

1036
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 2: hard it is to keep promises to yourself.

1037
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: They'll encourage you.

1038
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 2: It's a real commitment. Yeah, it's a real commitment. And

1039
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 2: it's when it genuine it really lands. What do you

1040
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 2: do when this scenario is you say no and you

1041
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 2: do it in the best way possible and someone's upset

1042
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 2: with you, and now you're towing this line between enabling

1043
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: them to make you say sorry and all this kind

1044
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: of stuff versus holding your standard. So someone asked you

1045
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 2: to come to a party or to help them out

1046
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 2: with something, you say no, I can't kept a promise

1047
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 2: for myself that trying to spend more time at home,

1048
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 2: can't travel. Now they try and make you feel bad

1049
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 2: about it. And there's someone that you consider a real

1050
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 2: friend and they're not even trying to make you feel

1051
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 2: bad about it. They are just upset and they're kind

1052
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 2: of reflecting that back on you. Do you do anything?

1053
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 2: What do you do?

1054
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: I'd give it a rese Sometimes fires have to burn

1055
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: out and if this, if it's a true friend, let's

1056
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: say and they just send this text of this is

1057
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: just like you never to a come and you just

1058
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 1: I always invite you and you're always late in. It's

1059
00:56:55,280 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: let that die out, because when they're disregulated, you become disregulated,

1060
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: and then that's when you start saying things that you

1061
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: don't mean and saying things that are not going to

1062
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: help the situation. So give it five minutes before you

1063
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: choose to respond. In fact, if you can wait until

1064
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: the very next day, because time has a way of

1065
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 1: sifting things out of what you need to respond to.

1066
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: And you're also giving them some a little bit of

1067
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: grace of saying, I know they're upset. Imagine if I,

1068
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: instead of getting upset with you everything you said, I

1069
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 1: looked at it and go, man, Jay's stressed out. They're

1070
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 1: a true friend. Hey, I know you didn't mean that.

1071
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: I know you just you're overwhelmed. You're overwhelmed. Later on,

1072
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: let's say a day passes, two day passes, that's when

1073
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: you need to say your words are not okay with me.

1074
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: What you just sent is below my standard for a response.

1075
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: You need to be able to toe that line. I'm

1076
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: saying that No, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna accept

1077
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: that kind of behavior. It's okay to be disappointed and

1078
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: it's not okay to talk to me like that. You

1079
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: have to be able to choose in conversation. Same with boundaries.

1080
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: What am I going to accept? What am I going

1081
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 1: to say? Absolutely not? Absolutely not. It's the difference of

1082
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: if you were to yell at me or raise your

1083
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: voice at me, if I had no boundary, it would

1084
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: sound like you can't yell at me. Really, you think

1085
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: you can yell at you? Do you think you know

1086
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: who you're talking to? You can't yell at me. Versus

1087
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: if I have boundaries, I say I don't accept people

1088
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: to speak to me that way. I don't respond to

1089
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: that volume. Now it's become a me thing, nothing that

1090
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: you can do. And now I've controlled I'm controlling the conversation.

1091
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: Now I'm taking a back. So if it's a friend,

1092
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: if it's a true friend, they ought to know what

1093
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: you really meant at that moment. And again this talks

1094
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: about the capacity for letting somebody show you they're messy. Yeah.

1095
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 2: I know for a fact that as soon as I

1096
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 2: started living by some of this, my life just totally transformed.

1097
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 2: You just and people actually started to respect, at least

1098
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: the ones that love you're actually close to you started

1099
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 2: to really respect that honesty and started to really engage

1100
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: with it in a much more meaningful way, where they

1101
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 2: weren't upset when you were honest because they saw you

1102
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 2: were always honest and you were always real, and all

1103
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 2: of a sudden, it wasn't surprising anymore. Whereas in the beginning,

1104
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 2: when you first start setting boundaries, people will be like, oh,

1105
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 2: wait a minute. Used to always be available, Now you're

1106
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 2: not available absolutely, And then people have this reaction. We're like, hey,

1107
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 2: wait a minute, how do you have plans on a

1108
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 2: Saturday night? I'm the one who expends for us on

1109
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 2: a Saturday nay. And then over time people go, oh, yeah,

1110
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 2: that's just who you are now. And I think a

1111
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 2: lot of us go through these transitionary moments in our

1112
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: life where we go from having no boundaries to having boundaries.

1113
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 2: We go from having no standards to having standards, and

1114
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,439
Speaker 2: when you get caught in the middle, people always point

1115
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 2: it out and it feels really painful because you are

1116
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 2: going from someone who has never organized to being organized.

1117
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 2: But now, over time people tend to respect and forget.

1118
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: If someone is upset at your boundary, it doesn't mean

1119
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: that it is wrong, It means that it's working. It's

1120
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: doing the very thing that you have the boundary in

1121
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: place to do that that discomfort that you feel welcome,

1122
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: Welcome it because that's you choosing to do something different,

1123
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 1: and always that moment will pass discomfort, temporary discomfort for

1124
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: long term peace. Sign me up? Sign Where where can

1125
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: I sign up? And if you can understand that those

1126
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: moments of discomfort get quicker and get quicker, and they

1127
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they become expected and it's

1128
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: not a bad thing you have. You know, many times

1129
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: as an attorney, I've heard arguments between two people or

1130
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: I've made arguments and it's nothing where it's these huge,

1131
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 1: knockdown drag outs. Because I've seen a lot of it.

1132
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: It's not like I'm going to be oh my gosh,

1133
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: they're yelling, oh my god. You know I'm we're in

1134
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: this argument because you've seen a lot of er doctors

1135
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: the only things they've seen. And then if you were

1136
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 1: to come with a scrape for them like, oh okay,

1137
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: this is this is nothing. Small things become nothing, and

1138
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: that's what you have to remember. It's working a different muscle.

1139
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: And so whenever you feel that angst. Take it as

1140
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: a sign for good that you're choosing to do something different.

1141
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: When you work out and you feel sore, Oh okay,

1142
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: I'm growing. That's the sore. It's you using a different

1143
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 1: muscle that's going to better your life.

1144
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 2: Jefferson, I want to switch to the workplace because I

1145
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 2: know your expertise and in the book also goes into

1146
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 2: that space, and I think that's an area where communication

1147
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 2: is so challenging on so many different levels, because now

1148
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 2: the incentive structure is different, the hierarchy is different. There's

1149
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 2: all these rules in place that in one sense, you

1150
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 2: don't have in friendships and romantic relationships. If a coworker

1151
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 2: keeps interrupting you, how do you shut that down without

1152
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: sounding petty?

1153
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:10,959
Speaker 1: I let them interrupt the first time, just the first,

1154
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: because we've all seen the people who they interrupt once

1155
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: and they say, excuse me, I was talking. Excuse me,

1156
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sorry. Where did you not hear I

1157
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: was talking? And everybody in the room goes, what whoa

1158
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: whoa whoa whoa whoa? Oh okay, excuse me, I guess

1159
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: you have what And all of a sudden you become

1160
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 1: like the diva, right you become the person that, oh,

1161
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 1: I cannot be interrupted. And sometimes more often than not,

1162
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: the person who interrupted didn't even realize that they were

1163
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: doing it. It meant no intention whatsoever. And some of

1164
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: these people are neurodiverge and some people have ADHD. Where

1165
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: it's going to happen, no bad intention behind it. And

1166
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 1: if I just let it happen and let them go on,

1167
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: let anybody who interrupted, no matter what, be able to

1168
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: say what they need to say, then I start again.

1169
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: Why because if they were interrupting me, they weren't gonna

1170
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: listen to me anyway. They weren't listening anyway, they were

1171
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: only thinking about what they had to say. Now, let

1172
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 1: them get it out and get it all out and

1173
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 1: show that I have some maturity that I don't have

1174
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: to be first. I don't have to have the spotlight

1175
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 1: right in that moment. So after that first interruption, then

1176
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: I start over again exactly where I left off. It's

1177
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 1: not like, okay, I guess thank you like that dismissive,

1178
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: passive aggressive. It start exactly where you were, and if

1179
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 1: they interrupt again, if they interrupt again, that's why I say,

1180
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: I can't hear you when you interrupt me I can't

1181
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: hear you when you interrupt me. I do the same

1182
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 1: thing with my kids. I can't hear you when you're whining.

1183
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, their voice changes every time, you know,

1184
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: it's every time, if it sends the signal if. If

1185
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 1: you want me to listen, there has to be some

1186
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: rules in place, and so I can't hear you when

1187
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,959
Speaker 1: you interrupt me. The I've also used, I will listen

1188
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 1: to you when I'm finished. If you want me to

1189
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 1: hear you, you need to let me finish. It's it's

1190
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 1: me putting an if. Then it's a condition. It's logic.

1191
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 1: If you want me to listen to you, then you

1192
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 1: need to let me finish. And so in order to

1193
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 1: get to what they want, they have to bide by

1194
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: the rules.

1195
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are the mistakes we make in the workplace

1196
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 2: that in our communication that make people respect us less?

1197
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 1: Over explaining? We say way too much, We say everything,

1198
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: We say the things you never asked for. We just

1199
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: keep going and we can't. We can't stop. We don't

1200
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: know why. You might have asked a simple question, and

1201
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, next thing you know, they're telling

1202
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: you everything, probably sometimes way too personal, and they realize

1203
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: I can't stop. Over explaining has a way of diminishing

1204
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: not only your control but also your confidence. You've got

1205
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 1: out that conversation, you go, oh my gosh, I just

1206
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: said way too much. Why did I say so much?

1207
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: It's because it's a it's a deeply rooted fear that

1208
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: you not enough to be believed. So I have to

1209
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 1: over explain. I have to say more so that you

1210
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 1: believe me, more so that you see how smart I am,

1211
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: that I do know what I'm talking about. That's why

1212
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 1: some people name drop, so that you know that I'm

1213
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: important and I'm special and I'm worth this this job.

1214
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 1: Versus only saying what you need to say. Over explaining

1215
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: kills the confidence what I say is, rather than being

1216
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 1: a waterfall, be a well. Rather than trying to over

1217
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 1: explain and say all the things at all the time,

1218
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: you just hold the knowledge and confidence of your own

1219
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 1: information and people will come to you and ask questions

1220
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: when they're ready. The over explaining is a sure way

1221
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: of showing that you're not somebody that can really be

1222
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 1: relied on in that moment, especially when quick decisions, hard

1223
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 1: decisions need to be made well said.

1224
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:55,200
Speaker 2: I like how when you're sharing these examples, there's a

1225
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 2: layering process, almost like there's a step one, and if

1226
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 2: that's then there's a step two, and if that doesn't work,

1227
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 2: then there's a step three. It's like there's degrees rather

1228
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 2: than like this is the right way and there's the

1229
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 2: wrong way. It's almost like it feels like there's an escalation.

1230
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 2: And that's important because I think not everyone who looks

1231
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 2: like they're against you is truly against you. And you know,

1232
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 2: in our mind we can often portray people in a

1233
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 2: certain way. I read something recently which I loved. It's

1234
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 2: called Handlon's Razor, where he said that don't attribute to

1235
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 2: malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity, And I

1236
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 2: love it. It's so good, and it's like, yeah, like sometimes

1237
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 2: it's you know, I was thinking about it is like,

1238
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 2: you know, all the people that you think are stabbing

1239
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 2: you in the back, they're just clumsy elbows, Like it's

1240
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 2: just the idea. Yeah. Most of the time, of course,

1241
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 2: there are sent yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, But like and

1242
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: it's like when you start giving, when you stop thinking

1243
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 2: that everyone's against you and trying to stab you in

1244
01:06:56,520 --> 01:07:00,080
Speaker 2: the bag, then you actually operate better. As well, you

1245
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 2: can actually respond better as well. You can actually you

1246
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 2: can control the situation better because now you're not coming

1247
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 2: at a reaction. Two sides of this question, how do

1248
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 2: people advocate for themselves in the workplace confidently? How do

1249
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 2: you communicate in a way that you can do that?

1250
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 2: And on the other side, how do leaders communicate standards

1251
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 2: and feedback effectively so that people know how they should grow.

1252
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 1: First would be to understand that most likely the person

1253
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: that you've that you're talking to has been where you've been,

1254
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 1: and we turn it into a US versus them. When

1255
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 1: I was a young associate at the law firm, that

1256
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: was that we would complain about the partners. We'd say,

1257
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 1: these partners don't appreciate that us, they don't care, they

1258
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:50,440
Speaker 1: don't understand. When I became a partner, the first email

1259
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: I got from an associate, I was like, these associates,

1260
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: they don't understand, they don't get the problems of a partner.

1261
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 1: We turn it into us versus them. The employer says,

1262
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 1: these employ don't understand. Employees say management doesn't understand when

1263
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 1: we don't stop to think that they have the same concerns.

1264
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: They're just as human and fallible as us. So if

1265
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 1: you need to advocate for yourself, it helps to be

1266
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 1: a student, to have a learner's mindset. So if I

1267
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 1: have to bring something to you, rather than me sitting

1268
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 1: down and go, okay, listen, I'm not being paid near

1269
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: enough to be around here and deal with all this

1270
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 1: instead of that, because from the management perspective, all they're

1271
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: thinking is Okay, are they leaving, They're out the door, Okay,

1272
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 1: what does that cost? What does that do to overhead?

1273
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: How's that going to affect my business? All the fears

1274
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: that they have deep within them of what that's going

1275
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,640
Speaker 1: to do to their to their life. Same thing with

1276
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 1: the employee they're feeling everybody's saying I want my ball

1277
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: and I'm protecting me in mind in those kind of moments.

1278
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: But if I were to sit down and say, when

1279
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:58,680
Speaker 1: you were in my shoes, what did you find to

1280
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,599
Speaker 1: be the best way of getting a higher salary or

1281
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 1: getting to your position or finding how did you find

1282
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 1: that you'd be more respected in this. People love to

1283
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,760
Speaker 1: be asked for advice. Some people make podcasts about them,

1284
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 1: you know, like it's it's but it's true. If you

1285
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 1: can go to your superior and say I need your

1286
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,719
Speaker 1: advice and then talk about the very thing without using

1287
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 1: your name or use your name. That's fine of what

1288
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 1: you're dealing with. All of a sudden, it removes the

1289
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 1: sense of oh no, what is this going to do?

1290
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 1: And there's going to start thinking a thousand miles away

1291
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 1: now the fear is on. But if I were to

1292
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 1: ask you, what did you find to be the best

1293
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 1: way to do X, Y and Z when somebody's you know,

1294
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: when somebody sent you a route email, how did you

1295
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: handle that? And what it does is actually create bond

1296
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:51,719
Speaker 1: between you two and remembering, hey, both of you are human.

1297
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: When it comes to leadership, what I like to say

1298
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 1: is good leaders respond to conversation. Great leaders make room

1299
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:04,640
Speaker 1: for it. When I can encourage the difficult conversation in

1300
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:06,760
Speaker 1: any organization that I go and talk to, I get

1301
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: in touch, I go and teach and train, the better

1302
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,639
Speaker 1: that organization is going to be. Most of the time,

1303
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 1: communication is they have no goal, no system, no values

1304
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: in terms of how do we want to communicate to

1305
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:25,680
Speaker 1: each other. You know, there's a difference between one restaurant

1306
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,720
Speaker 1: that might just say thank you when they give you

1307
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:31,440
Speaker 1: your food and the other says my pleasure. Right, there's

1308
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 1: a difference and every little word nuance that you have

1309
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:40,160
Speaker 1: when you can say, what's our shared vocabulary, and that's

1310
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 1: leadership and how we're going to communicate why because we've

1311
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 1: set the value and standard of how we want to

1312
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 1: be not only to the world and the outside, but

1313
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: also within ourselves. So am I really caring about you?

1314
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 1: Or am I just hey, thanks for the email? Like

1315
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 1: that's ultimately why I left my first law firms. I

1316
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 1: was helping clients that were nice and great, but there

1317
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 1: was really no connection. It was just a file to

1318
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 1: them and that became where eventually the bill comes due

1319
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 1: and it's just yeah, you just you're left empty handed.

1320
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 1: So it's creating the atmosphere to have difficult conversations and

1321
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: realizing that every opportunity to have a difficult conversation, everybody

1322
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 1: should be cheering everybody. There should be some celebration and

1323
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,720
Speaker 1: some comfetti when you say this is a chance for

1324
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 1: us to grow, this is a chance for us to

1325
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:35,639
Speaker 1: better it because we're okay with if. Like in sports

1326
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:39,919
Speaker 1: or in business, they the great leaders will say, embrace

1327
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:43,800
Speaker 1: your failures because it's the failures are the things that

1328
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 1: are going to ultimately lead you to success, but we

1329
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 1: don't do that with communication and difficult conversation. But that's

1330
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 1: exactly that's exactly what it.

1331
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:55,439
Speaker 2: Is, Jefferson. I was already a fan, and I'm a

1332
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 2: bigger fan after today. And I guess absolutely brilliant, such

1333
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:03,839
Speaker 2: great advice, just truly so practical and real and grounded,

1334
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 2: and I truly can't wait for people to get the

1335
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 2: book the next conversation argue, let's talk more. I really

1336
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 2: feel that this is like right at the core of

1337
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:16,559
Speaker 2: so many of life's challenges, Like you could potentially you

1338
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,400
Speaker 2: could argue that every challenge we go through on a

1339
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 2: daily basis is a communication issue. And I really believe

1340
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 2: that this is the book that has the answers. And

1341
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 2: so grateful that you showed up today and just thanks

1342
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:30,479
Speaker 2: shared so much amazing insight. We end every episode with

1343
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 2: a final five. These have to be questions that are

1344
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:36,599
Speaker 2: answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So most

1345
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 2: people take one sentence. No one ever does in one word,

1346
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 2: So Jefferson Fisher, these are your final five. The first

1347
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:45,400
Speaker 2: question is what is the best advice you've ever heard

1348
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:46,040
Speaker 2: or received?

1349
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 1: You can't look back and hoe a straight row it's

1350
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 1: like when you're gardening or you can't you can't look back.

1351
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 1: And also, yeah, great, it's like saying you can't drive

1352
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 1: a boat by stack and at the wake you can't

1353
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 1: look back.

1354
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:05,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, well said second question, what is the worst advice

1355
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:06,879
Speaker 2: you've ever had or received?

1356
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 1: Saying nice things will serve you well? Being playing nice

1357
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:18,120
Speaker 1: will serve you well, because if you say that nice

1358
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 1: serves you well, what ends up happening is that you

1359
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,920
Speaker 1: eventually end up serving it. People please you say the

1360
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 1: nice thing at the expense of being real.

1361
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Question number three, what is the difference between being

1362
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 2: real and being harsh?

1363
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 1: My intention for your ultimate good? If I truly want

1364
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 1: the best for you, then I'm gonna be okay with

1365
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 1: saying the harsh things. I won't regret it, but I

1366
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: will regret saying the thing that isn't as real as

1367
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:51,479
Speaker 1: it should be.

1368
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it all comes down to intention. Yes, sometimes

1369
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 2: we say we're being real, but really we're just being harsh,

1370
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 2: like we just don't really care. H And it comes

1371
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 2: across harsh and that's a bit harsh, and like, well,

1372
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 2: I'm just being real. Yes.

1373
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 1: They can use as a mask, Yes, exactly. Yeah, they

1374
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:06,680
Speaker 1: use it as a mask. This is just who I am.

1375
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm just you know, you can take it or leave it.

1376
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 1: But really it's when you're harsh. It's most of the

1377
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:14,760
Speaker 1: time you're just being lazy with your words. Yeah, you know,

1378
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: you're being lazy with other people's feelings, including your own.

1379
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 1: Like you should have enough intention behind it of caring

1380
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: about how you package it. If I were to give

1381
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 1: you a gift and it still has the receipt and

1382
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 1: I just hear you have it versus me actually caring

1383
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:31,800
Speaker 1: about the package, I'm putting intention that I really care

1384
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 1: about you and how things are delivered.

1385
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:38,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Question number four, I'm intrigued. What's your favorite

1386
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:40,120
Speaker 2: word in the English language?

1387
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 1: Genuine? It's to me it brings up just playing baseball,

1388
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 1: and it's a genuine leather and the palm of like

1389
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 1: is real. This is what I have. This is who

1390
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:55,680
Speaker 1: I am A there's a sense of soul and earthiness

1391
01:14:56,280 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 1: to it of when I know when somebody's being genuine

1392
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 1: and real with me, and that's somebody, it's like a

1393
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 1: good pair of genes. You know, you just know I

1394
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 1: can rely on and depend on it.

1395
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:10,719
Speaker 2: That's a great answer. Fifth and final question, we asked

1396
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 2: this every guest who's ever been on the show, if

1397
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:15,400
Speaker 2: you could create one law that everyone in the world

1398
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 2: had to follow, what would it be.

1399
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 1: Talk more?

1400
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 2: Are you less exactly?

1401
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I I stand by this very real understanding

1402
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:34,639
Speaker 1: that one day we're gonna have a conversation. You're gonna

1403
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 1: have a conversation and we have a conversation with somebody

1404
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:38,680
Speaker 1: that we love, and it'll be the last one we

1405
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 1: ever get with them, and we won't know it. So

1406
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 1: you need to say the thing talk like today matters

1407
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:51,400
Speaker 1: because it does. So you need to talk more. Relationships

1408
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:54,599
Speaker 1: don't fall apart usually over what was said, it's over

1409
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 1: what was not said. Same thing with businesses. It's misalignment.

1410
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 1: Doesn't happen because of one big moment. It happens in

1411
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 1: a thousand conversations that didn't. And so when you can

1412
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:10,200
Speaker 1: talk more and reach more and understand more, the better

1413
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:10,720
Speaker 1: it's going to be.

1414
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 2: It's a great answer, Jefferson Fisher. The book is called

1415
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:17,719
Speaker 2: The Next Conversation. Everyone's been listening and watching. Please tag

1416
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:21,320
Speaker 2: me in, Jefferson with the communication tip inside that you're

1417
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:23,639
Speaker 2: going to use this week. I want you to actually

1418
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:27,679
Speaker 2: try and practice this, whether it's at work, whether it's

1419
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 2: with your partner, whether it's with a parent, whether it's

1420
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 2: with a friend. Try and start practicing these tools this

1421
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 2: week because you'll actually see the difference and then you'll

1422
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:40,519
Speaker 2: be focused and engaged to learn more. Follow Jefferson on

1423
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 2: Instagram and TikTok if you don't already, And Jefferson, I

1424
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 2: hope this is the first of many times you come

1425
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 2: on the show. Truly so grateful to get to know

1426
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 2: you today and congrats on everything and truly your your

1427
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 2: INSIGHT's going to change a lot of life. So thank

1428
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:53,679
Speaker 2: you so much.

1429
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:55,559
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Jay, It's it's been a blessing to

1430
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:56,200
Speaker 1: get to talk to me.

1431
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,720
Speaker 2: Thank you man. If you enjoyed this conversation, you love

1432
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 2: my episode with the world's leading relationship therapist estaperrel where

1433
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:08,880
Speaker 2: we talk about why your ego is ruining your relationships

1434
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 2: and how to date more effectively.

1435
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:12,480
Speaker 1: I think we need to differentiate.

1436
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,640
Speaker 2: Are you looking for chemistry for a love story or

1437
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 2: are you looking for chemistry for a life story.