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Speaker 1: Him and the Saborro's thirteen year old stepdaughter escaped from

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Speaker 1: the Saboro's Noble Street home after being shackled on and

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Speaker 1: off to a beam in the basement. The pair was

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Speaker 1: indicted for sexually abusing her. This is Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Timothy Saborro, a former Toledo firefighter, and his

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Speaker 1: son Eston, will be their own lawyers when they go

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Speaker 1: on trial in the serious criminal case. You were to

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Speaker 1: tremendous disadvantage if you try to represize yourself. They asked

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Speaker 1: the judge today to make sure they had access to

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Speaker 1: what they call the only law book that truly matters,

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Speaker 1: the Bible. Both of them told Judge Lynda Jennings they

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Speaker 1: wanted to properly quote scripture as needed. They said it

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Speaker 1: was vile to their defense. The two young victims in

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Speaker 1: the Saboro's case will be on the witness stand, possibly

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Speaker 1: questioned by their alleged accuser to adult and accused of

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Speaker 1: imprisoning and abusing a girl. They're in court, but they

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Speaker 1: say they are going to use the Bible to defend themselves.

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Speaker 1: They asked the judge for a Bible. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a little too late for that. Hello everybody, Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: here with crime stories, and of course I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: the father and son duo out of Ohio accused of

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Speaker 1: keeping a girl, a young teen girl whose mother, if

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Speaker 1: you can call her, that left her with the uncle

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Speaker 1: and about two thousand and twelve, and she has been

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Speaker 1: being sexually abused ever since. They locked the girl and

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Speaker 1: imprisoned her in the basement and she is there for

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Speaker 1: over a year. This abuse has been going on since

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Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve. And now this father's son duo

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Speaker 1: have the gall to ask for the Bible to use

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Speaker 1: that as a defense in court. And you're gonna love

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Speaker 1: this quote. They say the Titanic was built by professionals,

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Speaker 1: but amateurs built the Ark. You know what. Good luck

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Speaker 1: with that. Joining me right now is Alan Duke, investigative reporter.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen these two, I mean, looking at them

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Speaker 1: in court, they look like dub and duver. That was

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Speaker 1: my first thought. It looks like from central casting of

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Speaker 1: two really dumb guys. Why do you always say when

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Speaker 1: I say something, you go, well, I already thought of that,

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Speaker 1: but you didn't say it. You said that was your

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Speaker 1: first thought, like you had already thought They looked like

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Speaker 1: dub and duver. Alright, fine, go ahead and take credit again.

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Speaker 1: They they do, though, and the judge is just looking

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Speaker 1: at them. She's the The shot is the two of

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Speaker 1: them standing there, staring at each other like adgets, a

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Speaker 1: judge looking at them quizzically as they demand the Bible. Now.

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Speaker 1: I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said one of

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Speaker 1: his most names quotes, only a fool has him self

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Speaker 1: for a lawyer, and these two are a double at that.

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Speaker 1: So what are the facts surrounding this case? Alan, Well,

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Speaker 1: it started back in September when this thirteen year old

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Speaker 1: girl said, well, she was seen wondering on the streets

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Speaker 1: and this woman saw her and said, looked like to

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Speaker 1: run away. She called She brought the girl in and

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Speaker 1: called the police, and the girl started telling her story.

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Speaker 1: She's just thirteen now. She's thirteen now, and she was

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Speaker 1: left with him in two thousand and twelve. Her mother

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Speaker 1: abandoned her there, which means, uh, so she's thirteen now

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Speaker 1: and she was left there five years ago. That places

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Speaker 1: her at eight years old. And according to reports, the

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Speaker 1: abuse started when she's eight eight. According to the report

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Speaker 1: that I read, the mother left them with the stepdad

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Speaker 1: so she could go to Las Vegas. They locked her

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Speaker 1: in the basement if she failed to obey their rules.

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Speaker 1: You know, I frankly think the mother needs to be

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Speaker 1: indicted to I was wondering about that. I figured you

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Speaker 1: would think that, of course, I do you leave your

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Speaker 1: children in this unstable environment. What do you think is

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Speaker 1: going to happen? Nothing good? And I guarantee you they're

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Speaker 1: not going to find anything in the Bible Old or

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Speaker 1: New Testament Contents index title page that's going to help

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Speaker 1: them out of this nothing. I would think that actually

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Speaker 1: the Bible would condemn what they did rather than defend it.

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Speaker 1: Have you had any experience with people representing themselves in

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Speaker 1: a situation similar to this on a serious charge. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: And of course I couldn't have been happier than when

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Speaker 1: they insist that they're going to represent themselves. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember Colin Ferguson, the shooter certainly? Yeah. I remember covering

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Speaker 1: his trial. Colin Ferguson was a killer that represented himself

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Speaker 1: at trial and when one of the victims that lived

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Speaker 1: pointed him out in court, he was standing at the

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Speaker 1: lecture and representing himself and questioning the witness when the

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Speaker 1: witness would trying to point at him as being the perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: He would duck down behind the lecture. I bet that

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Speaker 1: made a good impression on the jury. Huh. He was

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Speaker 1: the guy the subway shooter who said he was defending himself. Yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: So here we've got these two. The first thing I

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Speaker 1: would imagine a hired lawyer would do would make a

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Speaker 1: motion for severance so they would not be tried together.

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Speaker 1: Although unless it's a death penalty case, or there are

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Speaker 1: interlocking statements, which means one of them gives a statement

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Speaker 1: in points the thinker at the other and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: Unless you've got a situation like that, there's really no

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Speaker 1: legal reason it has to be severed. I guess they're

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Speaker 1: going to go to trial and wearing their prison orange

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Speaker 1: jumpsuits with chains around their waist. Well, each court appearance

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Speaker 1: has been that way. Well, if their quote lawyer quote

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Speaker 1: doesn't make emotion for them to wear street glows, they're

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Speaker 1: gonna look like this in front of the jury, unless

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Speaker 1: the judge takes pity on them and just says, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, I always kept a spare suit and an

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Speaker 1: assortment of clothes for defendants that did not have a

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Speaker 1: street clothes to wear in front of a jury. Kept

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Speaker 1: them in my office. And don't think I felt sympathy

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Speaker 1: for the defendants. That's just so the day of trial

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Speaker 1: they couldn't jump up and say they wanted to delay.

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Speaker 1: I go, oh no, no, no, I've got clothes for you.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry about that. They claim that they are going

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Speaker 1: to use quote God's Holy Word to ask questions, questions

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Speaker 1: that we believe are absolutely vital to our case. You

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Speaker 1: know what's concerning me about this is not their constitutional privileges, Alan,

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Speaker 1: but you know under our constitution they have a right

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Speaker 1: to cross examine states witnesses, which will mean the girl,

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Speaker 1: so she is going to be questioned by her alleged rapists.

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Speaker 1: What more do you know about these two? What happened?

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Speaker 1: She told her story and said that she for about

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Speaker 1: four years have been was being she said, being punished

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Speaker 1: for wedding, and I would be wetting my pants in

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Speaker 1: my bed. I'm certain if I lived with these guys

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Speaker 1: as a kid, they were punishing her, keeping her in

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Speaker 1: the basement, and then they were raping her over a

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Speaker 1: several year period, and that she finally escaped because the

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Speaker 1: two guys the stepdad and I guess step brother went

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Speaker 1: for a jog in the park and she found a

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Speaker 1: spare key to the handcuffs and escaped. So they were

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Speaker 1: making her wear handcuffs, and she was described as unclean

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Speaker 1: and traumatized by witnesses and was helped by two janitors

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Speaker 1: from the Port Authority building about a mile from the

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Speaker 1: the kidnap home. She was told to obey, according to sources,

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Speaker 1: a fifty point system, and that if she lost those

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Speaker 1: fifty points, she would be taken to the basement and handcuffed.

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Speaker 1: That had been happening for about a year. She told

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Speaker 1: police that she was forced to eat spoiled food and

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Speaker 1: use a bucket full of a moan yeah as her commode.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these two adult men were making her live

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Speaker 1: worse than an animal, like you said. She hasn't seen

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Speaker 1: her mother since mommy went to Vegas in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and twelve. She says she didn't know why her mom

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Speaker 1: left her or why she didn't come back. Can you

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Speaker 1: even imagine this child, I hope is getting some serious therapy.

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Speaker 1: She's in foster care now with her two other siblings.

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Speaker 1: She said they were being home schooled. I can imagine

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Speaker 1: what that is home school. It said that the Facebook

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Speaker 1: pages of the father and son were filled with ramblings

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Speaker 1: about Satan. I mean, it just calls me that so

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Speaker 1: many evil doers. There's no other way to put it.

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Speaker 1: I know that sounds draconian and throwback to call them

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Speaker 1: evil doers, but they are. They use some sort of crazy,

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Speaker 1: mixed up religion to buttress what they're doing. So they're

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Speaker 1: picking the jury today, and what kind of juror would

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Speaker 1: you choose as a prosecutor to watch this anybody? I

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Speaker 1: picked the first twelve that got in the box. You know.

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Speaker 1: Funny story about that. I remember one time when a

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Speaker 1: defense lawyer was kind of like swaggering around the courtroom

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Speaker 1: and I was a brand new prosecutor. I had so

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Speaker 1: far only done I guess a tipted shop liftings and

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Speaker 1: a couple of thefts. I had one of my first

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Speaker 1: serious felonies. I was, you know, concerned. I had been

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Speaker 1: working nine and day on it. I was starting with

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Speaker 1: a dire a jury selection and the defense attorney was

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Speaker 1: a braggart. I can remember him right now, and he

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Speaker 1: was walking swaggering around the court when he announced very

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Speaker 1: loudly in front of the jury pool about a hundred people.

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Speaker 1: You know what, I'm so confident about my case. I'll

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Speaker 1: take the first twelve. And I'm like, oh crap, what

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Speaker 1: can I do? So I said, I bamned my fist

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Speaker 1: on the table and went, me too, I'll take the

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Speaker 1: first twelve. And you know, I felt like I had to.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't say I doubted the jury pool. So damn

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Speaker 1: gunm it. We took the first twelve. Well I got

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Speaker 1: a conviction. So what I'm saying is that was with

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Speaker 1: no boyd dire, no questions, no nothing. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: one thing about them except the order in which they

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Speaker 1: came into the jury, into the courtroom. This case is

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Speaker 1: so horrible. I can't imagine anyone would be a quote

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Speaker 1: bad gurar for the state. One of these guys was

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Speaker 1: a firefighter, but the fire chief Santiago remembered him as

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Speaker 1: quote not being a very good employee. I can just

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Speaker 1: only imagine what kind of firefighter he was. You mean

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Speaker 1: that one of these Yeah, they used to be a

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Speaker 1: firefighters to the Timothy Timothy Saboro was once a firefighter

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Speaker 1: until two thousand four and catch this he filed a

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Speaker 1: harassment and wrongful dismissal against the city after he was fired.

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Speaker 1: He was fired for demanding a disc count on ice

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Speaker 1: cream and an ice cream stand. Uh, he got fired.

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Speaker 1: So this is who we're looking at now. The Drew

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Speaker 1: won't ever know what all we're talking about. All this

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Speaker 1: will be kept from the jury. So the use of

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Speaker 1: the Bible. If you ever had a defendant try to

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Speaker 1: use a Bible in court, how do you do that.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember a defendant ever using a Bible, but

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Speaker 1: I sure did. Hey, hey, hey, don't don't don't start

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Speaker 1: with me about the Bible. I don't think I ever

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Speaker 1: tried a single case without a Bible on my on

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Speaker 1: my with me. And uh, this was long past the

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Speaker 1: time when you had to swear somebody in with her

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Speaker 1: hand on the Bible. But I still took my Bible

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Speaker 1: up there for them to swear on it. If they

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Speaker 1: didn't want to, they didn't have to. And I've been

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Speaker 1: in positions where I was sworn in there was no Bible,

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Speaker 1: so I would put my hand over my heart and

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Speaker 1: swearing court. But you know that that's just the state

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Speaker 1: of affairs as it is now. But you do run right.

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Speaker 1: I had a Bible with me, Remember a defendant, you

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Speaker 1: see one. Well, these characters, this this dad and his

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Speaker 1: son are only allowed to bring the Bible to court

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Speaker 1: and have it with them. The judge overruled any of

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Speaker 1: their efforts to quote from the Bible into question witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Using quotes from the Bible or references question witnesses, well,

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Speaker 1: I would say that that is not necessarily due to

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Speaker 1: it being the moble. But as to being irrelevant, I mean,

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Speaker 1: when you put a witness up on the stand and go,

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Speaker 1: can you quote Corinthian Corinthians thirteen, I don't think that

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Speaker 1: that would be relevant. And plus it seems like a

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Speaker 1: ploy on their part. I just can't wait for them

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Speaker 1: to blurt out that professionals built the Titanic, but amateurs

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Speaker 1: built the arc. You know what. I pray that that's

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Speaker 1: in their opening statement. What if they come out with

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Speaker 1: something like, spare the rod, spoiled the child. We were

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Speaker 1: just disciplining this girl because she was not following the rules,

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Speaker 1: and now she's lying to us about our biblical discipline her.

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Speaker 1: I would welcome that, because I hardly think statutory rape

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Speaker 1: is equated to discipline, can possibly be equated to discipline?

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Speaker 1: I doubt that very seriously. In fact, trying to use

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Speaker 1: the Bible to justify what they have done since two

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Speaker 1: thousand and twelve would probably, I mean, I put money

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Speaker 1: on it, and I'm not a betting person, will probably

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Speaker 1: irritate any religious person of any sort on on in

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Speaker 1: the jury pool. It just will. You know, it's bad

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Speaker 1: enough what they did, but then to try to hide

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Speaker 1: behind the Bible, that's even worse. Eston Sabboro, he's the Sun.

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Speaker 1: He's twenty eight. He is quoted as telling the telling

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Speaker 1: the judge the only book that truly matters is the Bible.

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Speaker 1: He says, there's a great deal of strategy and scripture,

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Speaker 1: and I use those strategies and everything I do. It's

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Speaker 1: a vital part of everything I do. That's what he

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Speaker 1: told the judge in court. And arguing for the ability

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Speaker 1: to use the Bible, well, I I predict they'll have

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Speaker 1: plenty of time to think about their trial strategy behind bars.

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Speaker 1: That's my prediction on this one. And now let's see,

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Speaker 1: they're charged with so many felonies, but I'm sure they're

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Speaker 1: looking at at least a sense of twenty years behind bars.

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Speaker 1: Now what I'm hoping now forty years according to the

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Speaker 1: what I what I've seen, at least, because here's my concern.

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Speaker 1: If the judge runs these concurrent or a sentencing on

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Speaker 1: each one to run at the same time, Like, okay,

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Speaker 1: there's kidnapping, let's just for argument's sake, say that's twenty years,

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Speaker 1: although I think it's up to forty two life and

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Speaker 1: then you've got twenty on statutory rate. Some judges would

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Speaker 1: run those consecutively, one after the other. Some would run

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Speaker 1: them concurrently at the same time. That's what I don't want.

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Speaker 1: What I think is there. I hate to count my

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Speaker 1: chickens before they're hatched, but I'm betting there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a conviction. So if there is, I say, they'll

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Speaker 1: have plenty of time and to study the Bible behind bars.

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Speaker 1: I don't think the trial will last very long. I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine how it would except for the constant interruptions.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think it'll take a lot of witnesses. No,

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Speaker 1: but well, I don't think it will take a very

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Speaker 1: long but you're gonna have to handle the child witnesses

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Speaker 1: with kid gloves, and there's gonna be a lot of outbursts.

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Speaker 1: They may even end up in a mistrial. Although these

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Speaker 1: two won't have the sense to ask for a mistrial.

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Speaker 1: And on the other hand, Alan, if you're the one

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Speaker 1: that causes the outburst, you can't ask for a mistrial

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Speaker 1: based on the outburst. You can't ask for a mistrial

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Speaker 1: based on something you did in court. That's the law.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting, one of these guys, the son Eston, is

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Speaker 1: now only twenty eight, which means he started this behavior

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Speaker 1: five years ago. At twenty three, he's got a long,

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Speaker 1: long road to ho inhead ahead of him after he's convicted.

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Speaker 1: You know, another law scholar, a legal scholar, may have

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Speaker 1: used the insanity defense on these two, not that I

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Speaker 1: think it's true, of course, but that could have been

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Speaker 1: a backup defense for them. I'm not sure it's insanity.

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Speaker 1: I think I could. It would be argued that it's not.

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Speaker 1: I think it's just ignorance and stupidity without the insanity

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Speaker 1: and evil. Well, as you know, ignorance of the law

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Speaker 1: is no defense. But oh, you finally have broken down.

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Speaker 1: I've worn you down. You finally admit that it's evil

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Speaker 1: it is to do this to this child. And this

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Speaker 1: is just what we're hearing. We don't know everything that

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Speaker 1: was done to this child, and can you imagine what

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Speaker 1: the other children were going through that may have known

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Speaker 1: what was happening? Uh this, I just wonder did nobody

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Speaker 1: miss her. She's been in the basement, locked in for

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Speaker 1: a year. Nobody noticed she wasn't around. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: she was enrolled at any time in school. They say

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Speaker 1: that they were quote homeschooling them, But you can only

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Speaker 1: home school children when you go through the proper channels.

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Speaker 1: You can't just take your kid out of school and

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Speaker 1: not do any paperwork or updates on their their progress.

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Speaker 1: That's the way home schooling. I think it's supposed to work,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Well. I doubt if they actually registered them

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Speaker 1: for homeschooling, so there was no district to monitor that.

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Speaker 1: It fell through the cracks, if you will, probably a

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Speaker 1: huge canyon it fell through. Well, they always say that

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Speaker 1: about children. It's always a child that falls through the

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Speaker 1: cracks always. What else do you know about these two

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Speaker 1: or about this case? Allen jury selection today? The trial

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Speaker 1: will be watching it. I wish it was televised. I

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Speaker 1: really would like to watch this. And I'm gonna check

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Speaker 1: and see if anybody's going to do a video feed

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Speaker 1: out of this, because I would like to see video

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Speaker 1: of these characters in court. It's gonna be very sad. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll have the latest on Crime on line dot com

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Speaker 1: and Nancy, we now have the system set up to

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Speaker 1: where listeners to the podcast can call in and leave

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Speaker 1: voicemail messages with questions. You can call in and it's

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Speaker 1: a very easy number to remember it. I really is

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Speaker 1: talking to our listeners. It reminds me of when I

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Speaker 1: would strike juries, you know, with a hundred of citizens

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Speaker 1: at a time, and question witnesses and talk to them

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Speaker 1: prior to court. And I loved taking calls on Larry

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Speaker 1: King when I got to guest hosts for him. That

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Speaker 1: led me to take calls on Court TV and for

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Speaker 1: many many years on HLN. So I'm really looking forward

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Speaker 1: to this. Give me the number again, please, it's nine

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Speaker 1: oh nine four nine Crime. That's nine oh nine four

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Speaker 1: nine to seven four six three everyone. Nancy Grace signing

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Speaker 1: off Crime Stories today and I want to thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Goodbye, friend,