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Speaker 3: Let's get to the latest on trade. Certainly those trade
Speaker 3: tariffs that we keep seeing coming from the White House,
Speaker 3: the latest US trade salvo continuing to be dissected today
Speaker 3: President Trump signing a proclamation that happened Wednesday at the
Speaker 3: White House to implement a tariff on auto imports and
Speaker 3: pledged harsher punishment on the EU in Canada if they
Speaker 3: join forces against the United States, expanding a trade war
Speaker 3: and really triggering some threats of retaliation.
Speaker 4: Well, we're going.
Speaker 5: To be doing.
Speaker 6: Is a twenty five percent tariff on all cars that
Speaker 6: are not made in the United States, if they're made
Speaker 6: in the United States, is absolutely not terror. We start
Speaker 6: off with a two and a hared percent base, which
Speaker 6: is what we were at, and we go to twenty
Speaker 6: five percent.
Speaker 7: This is going to lead to the construction of a
Speaker 7: lot of a lot of plants, a lot of this case,
Speaker 7: auto plants, and you're gonna see numbers like you haven't
Speaker 7: seen all right.
Speaker 3: That, of course was President Trump yesterday at the White
Speaker 3: House with more. Let's head there and to Bloomberg new
Speaker 3: senior reporter Jennifer Delowey, who is at the White House
Speaker 3: at this hour. Jen, lay it all out for our
Speaker 3: Bloomberg audience. How the tariffs roll out, what's the latest
Speaker 3: and are there any exemptions?
Speaker 8: Right? So, the way these are constructed under the proclamation
Speaker 8: that the President signed yesterday, they will initially hit fully
Speaker 8: assembled vehicles and that will start essentially on April third.
Speaker 8: The tariffs will be collected starting at twelve oh one
Speaker 8: am that morning. They will eventually as soon as May third,
Speaker 8: or by May third, start covering imported parts as well.
Speaker 8: So you know your engines, your transmissions, your auto components.
Speaker 8: The idea of being there is that, you know, White
Speaker 8: House Trade advisors, the President believe that the US, you
Speaker 8: know it was doing a lot of assembly of foreign
Speaker 8: made components in its autoplants, and not enough a generation
Speaker 8: of those high value parts themselves. So the idea of
Speaker 8: extending to parts is a bid to reshore more of
Speaker 8: the entire value chain. And importantly, while there is a
Speaker 8: bit of a temporary safety net for us MCA compliant
Speaker 8: trade from Canada and Mexico, it is only a very
Speaker 8: temporary reprieve. After the government decides the US government decides
Speaker 8: how to assess the US components of imported cars from
Speaker 8: those countries, it will essentially assess the levy on everything
Speaker 8: that is foreign about them. Even though obviously Canada and
Speaker 8: Mexico are part of a trade deal that was negotia
Speaker 8: in the first Trump term.
Speaker 9: Right then the president then who's the president now, made
Speaker 9: a really big deal about that USMCA back during the
Speaker 9: first term. We've seen the president already though, jen roll
Speaker 9: back tariffs that have been announced, especially with regard to
Speaker 9: our neighbor's closest to US. Is there any chance that
Speaker 9: over the next month these could not be implemented or
Speaker 9: they could be rolled back?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 8: With this president, I think there's always a chance. We
Speaker 8: have clearly seen his willingness to negotiate tariffs, especially with
Speaker 8: Canada and Mexico. To be sure, the President yesterday in
Speaker 8: the Oval Office said emphatically that these are permanent, These
Speaker 8: will last his entire term. Even so, we now know that,
Speaker 8: you know, it's been reported that there was a call
Speaker 8: between Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik and Ontario's premier, and after
Speaker 8: that the Globe and Mail reported that, you know, the
Speaker 8: province now expects the US to lessen the impact on Canada.
Speaker 8: So there's there's certainly a lot of effort by countries
Speaker 8: and companies that are being affected by these or expect
Speaker 8: to be affected, to get some kind of exemption or
Speaker 8: a dial down.
Speaker 3: So what else is coming next week in the way
Speaker 3: of tariffs. It's really hard, Tim and I laugh. I
Speaker 3: know Bloomberg has done a great job of like trying
Speaker 3: to keep it true.
Speaker 9: Keep tr have the Trump tariff tracker, I have it
Speaker 9: pulled up. It's a Bloomberg dot Com story. Right, google it,
Speaker 9: you'll get right to it. It's really perfect.
Speaker 3: But to say that it is really great, but it's
Speaker 3: like stuff still kind of is coming, and maybe more
Speaker 3: stuff is coming. So tell us what we should expect
Speaker 3: for you know, next week.
Speaker 8: I mean next week is very very big on the
Speaker 8: tariff front. The President has been talking about April second
Speaker 8: for weeks as being what he calls Liberation Day for America.
Speaker 8: He has promised retaliatory I'm sorry, reciprocal apologies. He has
Speaker 8: promised these reciprocal tariffs that will essentially reflect the levies
Speaker 8: that other countries impose on the US, both in terms
Speaker 8: of direct tariffs, but also things like a value added
Speaker 8: tax or even you know, regulations that act to deter
Speaker 8: the import of US goods into their countries. So the
Speaker 8: idea is that those would be set to reflect kind
Speaker 8: of what, as he puts it, what they charge us
Speaker 8: will charge them. Yesterday he did signal some you know,
Speaker 8: willingness to be maybe more lenient. He actually said, you know,
Speaker 8: these will be more lenient than people are expecting, so
Speaker 8: we'll see, we'll stay tuned. He also indicated that they
Speaker 8: would hit all countries right away, as opposed to just
Speaker 8: focusing on what he has considered the worst defenders, the
Speaker 8: folks he calls the Dirty fifteen or also, by the way,
Speaker 8: expecting sectoral tariffs. He has threatened those on pharmaceutical imports,
Speaker 8: on imports of lumber, and on imports of semiconductors and chips.
Speaker 8: It isn't clear how those and when those will all
Speaker 8: be rolled out, but yesterday the President indicated that lumber
Speaker 8: is likely next week.
Speaker 9: Well, perhaps to throw another I don't know, another variable
Speaker 9: in here. China and TikTok and the way that there
Speaker 9: could be a rollback in tariffs are partly as a
Speaker 9: result of a negotiation strategy with TikTok. President Trumps that
Speaker 9: he would consider lowering tariff rates imposed on China secure
Speaker 9: Beijing support for that sale of TikTok's US operations to
Speaker 9: an American company. What do we know about that? How
Speaker 9: would that work? Is this just a negotiating strategy?
Speaker 8: You know, I think Trump clearly has shown that he
Speaker 8: sees tariffs as not just an economic tool and not
Speaker 8: just a tool of US geo political might, but really,
Speaker 8: you know, an opportunity to exact concessions from other countries
Speaker 8: and on China. Of course, you know, he is trying
Speaker 8: the US government is trying to you know, shepherd a
Speaker 8: deal that would allow for the sale of TikTok to
Speaker 8: a US company. That deadline under a law that Trump
Speaker 8: extended the deadline for. You know, he hits April fifth.
Speaker 8: Yesterday he said, look, I'm willing to maybe I'd be
Speaker 8: willing to shave some of their levies a little bit
Speaker 8: shave the tariffs on China if they agree to the deal,
Speaker 8: because there is some kind of China approval component here.
Speaker 8: You know, how that actually works, we'd have to see,
Speaker 8: but I think it's quite clear. You know, there are
Speaker 8: concessions he wants from China on an array of fronts,
Speaker 8: including drug trade and TikTok. Maybe something he's willing to
Speaker 8: negotiate on.
Speaker 3: Is it just kind of always live In other words,
Speaker 3: there could be more, there could be less. We just
Speaker 3: that's kind of the environment, at least right now that
Speaker 3: we're in.
Speaker 8: It's very fluid. I mean, even yesterday there was a
Speaker 8: lot of fluidity around the scope of the autotiffs. Before
Speaker 8: it was signed. We didn't know if it was going
Speaker 8: to be parts. We didn't know if it was going
Speaker 8: to be fully assimbled vehicles. And you know, even after
Speaker 8: these things are put in place, they can be changed
Speaker 8: many many times over. Fluid, unpredictable. That's where we.
Speaker 3: Are, fast moving river. That's what it feels like. All right, Jed,
Speaker 3: thank you as always. We know you are super busy
Speaker 3: as well. Bloomberg New senior reporter Jennifer Delowey joining us
Speaker 3: certainly from the White House all right, latest on tariffs.
Speaker 3: Now we want to kind of get to so what
Speaker 3: does this mean potentially for the US economy?
Speaker 9: This on a day when we got another read on
Speaker 9: the US economy for the final quarter of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 9: For more, let's go to Bloomberg Economics US economist Stort
Speaker 9: Paul he joins us here in the Bloomberg BusinessWeek studio
Speaker 9: a lot of places to start. We could start with
Speaker 9: fourth quarter GDP Weekly Jobless core PCE. We got an
Speaker 9: important inflation print tomorrow, the one that the FED really
Speaker 9: cares about. Does any of this matter when we continue
Speaker 9: to see a president change his mind on tariffs or
Speaker 9: impose more tariffs and really appear not to be done
Speaker 9: with that process.
Speaker 10: GDP doesn't matter as much, The unemployment insurance claims don't
Speaker 10: matter as much. I do think that the core inflation
Speaker 10: and spending items do matter a lot. So tomorrow we're
Speaker 10: going to get the February core PC inflation report, the
Speaker 10: Fed's preferred measure of prices.
Speaker 9: We're expecting to.
Speaker 10: See zero point three five percent month on month core inflation.
Speaker 10: That's about double the pace the FED needs to run
Speaker 10: to get back to its two percent inflation target, and
Speaker 10: we're also going to see a major surgeon spending, in
Speaker 10: part on the back of audit which were auto sales
Speaker 10: were terrible in January, major rebound in February. Why does
Speaker 10: it matter? Folks are looking out in the world and
Speaker 10: they're expecting to see tariffs hit, and they're pulling forward
Speaker 10: their buying plans, so in anticipation of future prices tomorrow,
Speaker 10: they're spending more today, which actually generates the inflation that
Speaker 10: they're expecting to see tomorrow. Separate and apart from the separate,
Speaker 10: apart from the cost push effects of higher tariffs. So yeah,
Speaker 10: if you're the Fed, if you're consumers, if you're looking
Speaker 10: at the broad macro data, things like inflation and spending
Speaker 10: still do matter, separate apart from what's going on in
Speaker 10: the West.
Speaker 9: You were telling me you're going to go buy six
Speaker 9: cars this weekend. Yeah, so then you get before something
Speaker 9: Saturday is going to beautiful data walk a lot.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I've been thinking about this, like, how
Speaker 3: do you as economists and you look at the US economy,
Speaker 3: you know, what's the rule of thumb when it comes
Speaker 3: to tariff'scope this much? This is what happens to the
Speaker 3: US economy, or this is what happens to inflation? Do
Speaker 3: you how do you play sure?
Speaker 10: So we have a broader models, We use a whole
Speaker 10: host of different methodologies, but what it really comes down
Speaker 10: to is looking at the size of the market that's
Speaker 10: being tariffed, the size of the industry that's being tariff
Speaker 10: the effective tariff rate, how much our effective tariff rate
Speaker 10: across all imported goods moves, and then we map that
Speaker 10: to GDP growth into inflation. So if we look at
Speaker 10: what happened with autos yesterday, our effective tariff rate is
Speaker 10: going to go up about two percentage points. Not huge.
Speaker 10: We're still going to be running at an effective tarif
Speaker 10: rate of just about five percent, not a big deal.
Speaker 10: What it does do is take about two percentage points, sorry,
Speaker 10: zero point two percentage points off a full year of growth,
Speaker 10: and it boosts core inflation by about zero point one
Speaker 10: percentage points. If we think about reciprocal tariffs and what
Speaker 10: it could mean in the extreme, if we're looking at
Speaker 10: value added taxes, if we're looking at non tariff measures,
Speaker 10: and we're matching tariff rates with our major our top
Speaker 10: fifteen trading partners, that's an effective tarifyrate of about thirty
Speaker 10: five five percent, not five percent, thirty five percent, which
Speaker 10: will shave off about four percentage points from growth over
Speaker 10: about three years. So when you start mapping into the aggregate,
Speaker 10: it could get to be some pretty big numbers.
Speaker 9: So how do you map that against this idea that
Speaker 9: the President has, which is, if we impose these tariffs,
Speaker 9: we will see a return of manufacturing back to the
Speaker 9: United States, We'll see more economic activity in the United
Speaker 9: States as a result. Do you map that out?
Speaker 10: We do the hit that consumers take and the consequences
Speaker 10: for consumption, it tends to matter more than the investment
Speaker 10: implications of trying to reshore additional manufacturing getting people back
Speaker 10: to work. This is part of the problem with tariffs
Speaker 10: in general, is that some of the benefits, like investments,
Speaker 10: some of the benefits to auto producers, for example, are
Speaker 10: very concentrated, but the costs are actually very diffuse, and
Speaker 10: when they start racking up across the entire economy, they
Speaker 10: get to be some pretty big numbers.
Speaker 3: One of the things I keep thinking about, Stuart, is
Speaker 3: that as we look to bring more manufacturing back to
Speaker 3: the United States, I mean, and I keep kind of asking,
Speaker 3: do we want to be a manufacturer of shirts. Not
Speaker 3: that there's anything wrong with being a manufacturer of shirts,
Speaker 3: but what is better for an economy, a developed economy.
Speaker 3: Is it better to be a service led economy high tech? Like,
Speaker 3: what is it that's better from an economic standpoint for
Speaker 3: a developed country?
Speaker 10: Being a services oriented economy and being a consumption oriented
Speaker 10: economy is really what matters. And when that's the case,
Speaker 10: you want to have a low You want to have
Speaker 10: low imported goods costs, right, you want costs to be
Speaker 10: relatively low. But there are four different factors I think
Speaker 10: at least that are in play when thinking about what
Speaker 10: could be motivating tariff policy. Right, you have typical vintage
Speaker 10: trump Ism, going back to the eighties where he's just
Speaker 10: looking at the trade balance and wants to win. You
Speaker 10: advance Midwesternism I'm calling it, which is he looks out
Speaker 10: to the Midwest, sees the rust belt totally hollowed out,
Speaker 10: and says, cheap imported goods are not the American dream.
Speaker 10: We need to bring hope and revitalize the hour manufacturing
Speaker 10: base to give people jobs. You also have defensive on
Speaker 10: shoring of major pharmaceuticals, for example, medical supplies and that's
Speaker 10: a reason to onshore. And then finally you have this
Speaker 10: negotiating tactic, this sort of monopsonist sort of you know,
Speaker 10: we're the big market that everybody wants to sell into,
Speaker 10: so we could extract rents from other folks. When all
Speaker 10: of those motivations are in play, we're still going to
Speaker 10: see tariff policy flying around. We're still going to see
Speaker 10: these proposals separate apart from any sort of actual growth
Speaker 10: that we could generate. That's a secondary effect.
Speaker 9: In your view as an economist, does this America First
Speaker 9: agenda when it comes to manufacturing in the US does
Speaker 9: that work?
Speaker 10: Will it work in terms of generating growth?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 10: Fundamentally no, because if we think about the things that
Speaker 10: so Carol, as you mentioned, do we really want to
Speaker 10: be manufacturing shirts? Not that there's anything wrong with that,
Speaker 10: it's a low value good. It's not going to do
Speaker 10: very much. The benefit to us of the additional manufacturing
Speaker 10: jobs in low value goods like shirts probably isn't there.
Speaker 10: If you want to do some of Erica First defensive
Speaker 10: on shoring of things like semiconductors, the amount of revenue
Speaker 10: that you generate per job created, or let's flip the
Speaker 10: ratio and say how many jobs are created per million
Speaker 10: dollars of revenue generated. You actually employ relatively few people.
Speaker 10: So we're not gonna end up rebuilding a manufacturing industry
Speaker 10: that captures a large share of our labor force. It's
Speaker 10: just not gonna happen.
Speaker 3: Just twenty seconds because two, that's like the question I
Speaker 3: feel like, because we talk about the gaps that are
Speaker 3: here in the economy of the haves and have not,
Speaker 3: So what is it from an economists perspective, really helps
Speaker 3: the US economy benefit more in our society and just
Speaker 3: really quickly productivity growth.
Speaker 10: It's all productivity growth, not reversing the de industrialization of
Speaker 10: the past century. It's productivity growth. It's capitalizing on new
Speaker 10: ideas and innovations. And that's why the US has outperformed
Speaker 10: everybody else. It's mostly because of Silicon Valley and the
Speaker 10: development of modern finance.
Speaker 9: In the US.
Speaker 3: Killer stuff, So appreciate it. Stuart Paul. Yeah, that was
Speaker 3: like a masterclass, folks, you missed it downloaded.
Speaker 9: Check out his research at Bloomberg Economics. Read all of
Speaker 9: the team's research. They know what they're doing.
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Speaker 5: Well, US mortgage.
Speaker 3: Rates in the United States felt for the first time
Speaker 3: in three weeks. Pending sales of US homes rebounded two
Speaker 3: percent in February, So that be a economist's estimates due
Speaker 3: to commer weather and a greater selection of houses. And
Speaker 3: then you might recall earlier in the week sales of
Speaker 3: new homes in the US bouncing back slightly last month.
Speaker 3: That was kind of after a rocky start to twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five, home builders benefiting again from better weather while
Speaker 3: also leading on generous sales incentives to stoke demand.
Speaker 9: Him Despite the rebound, homebuilders are cautious due to increased
Speaker 9: home supply, high mortgage rates prices, all so which may
Speaker 9: limit support for the economy. We got a great voice
Speaker 9: on this back with us as Katie Hubbard, Executi Vice
Speaker 9: president of Capital Markets at Walton Global. It's the privately
Speaker 9: owned asset in real estate investment company. It's got nearly
Speaker 9: four point four billion dollars of land under management and
Speaker 9: nearly ninety thousand acres under management here in the US.
Speaker 9: Walton Global operates in the retail, industrial, and commercial sectors. Katie,
Speaker 9: welcome back. It's good to see you. Usually you join
Speaker 9: us from out West. It's good to have you here
Speaker 9: in New York. Tell us why you're here, who you're
Speaker 9: talking to, and what the temperature is of the folks
Speaker 9: that you've been meeting with.
Speaker 11: Yeah, so specifically meeting with some of our clients and
Speaker 11: also just attending a private equity real estate conference, meeting
Speaker 11: with some of the top national homebuilders as well, and
Speaker 11: just getting the sentiment that homebuilders are still feeling very
Speaker 11: bullish right now.
Speaker 9: Why are they feeling bullish?
Speaker 11: People are really settling into that mid six percent mortgage
Speaker 11: rate and.
Speaker 9: Settling into mid six percent? Wow, didn't take I hear,
Speaker 9: I hear you say that could be worse. Yeah, it
Speaker 9: could be worse. It hasn't been worse, but it could
Speaker 9: get Okay, So why else?
Speaker 11: Yeah, just there's a there's also a land grab going
Speaker 11: on in most major markets because land is scarce, and
Speaker 11: home home purchasers are still out there looking to buy
Speaker 11: homes and people are really starting to come off of
Speaker 11: the sideline, so they want to be prepared to be
Speaker 11: able to control the land, to be able to build
Speaker 11: the homes.
Speaker 3: What makes home builders ultimately build.
Speaker 11: It's just it's a volume game. So the public homebuilders,
Speaker 11: they want to hit their numbers while protecting their margins.
Speaker 11: And as you mentioned, Carol earlier, you know, they are
Speaker 11: offering incentives still to keep those numbers going and so
Speaker 11: you can still you know, buy a brand new house
Speaker 11: and get a mortgage rate buydown. Sometimes they're offering appliance upgrades,
Speaker 11: you know, finishing kitchens with higher end granted, you know,
Speaker 11: offering incentives to keep the volume going.
Speaker 3: Because you know, I was thinking about you know, we were,
Speaker 3: you know, getting ready to talk with you. Earlier this year,
Speaker 3: Bloomberg put out a story and forgive, I'm just going
Speaker 3: to look at some notes here, and they said they
Speaker 3: were looking to the nation's current housing crisis, as I
Speaker 3: think was in January, and they talk about the lack
Speaker 3: of home building coming off of the Great Recession more
Speaker 3: than a decade ago, home construction never catching back up
Speaker 3: to the demand of a growing population. Zillow has put
Speaker 3: out some data, at least earlier this year, that the
Speaker 3: US has a shortage of about four and a half
Speaker 3: million homes. Is that still kind of where we are?
Speaker 3: And again I think about what really needs to happen
Speaker 3: for housing affordability and availability to kind of meet some
Speaker 3: of the demand that's out there.
Speaker 11: Absolutely, I mean there is a shortage. So depending on
Speaker 11: how you look at it could be you know, four
Speaker 11: to even six million homes short in the country. And
Speaker 11: so that's another thing that's keeping the builders going is
Speaker 11: that the demand is still there. The regulation makes it
Speaker 11: difficult for them to build. So that's something that administration can,
Speaker 11: the Trump administration can.
Speaker 3: Do remind us what that is.
Speaker 11: And so that means it's just there's a lot of
Speaker 11: bureaucracy and red tape when it comes to zoning and
Speaker 11: land development, so.
Speaker 9: That actually that's local.
Speaker 11: It is local. But what the Trump administration has talked
Speaker 11: about doing is incentivizing local jurisdictions to make it easier
Speaker 11: to build houses faster. And then if they can build
Speaker 11: them faster, they can ultimately build them cheaper. So they
Speaker 11: can offer federal funding and tax incentives to the local
Speaker 11: governments to bring to bring that down. So for example,
Speaker 11: in Portland, there was a developer who've got an infill
Speaker 11: lot and instead of rezoning it to build higher density.
Speaker 11: Just was able to build seven homes on one lot,
Speaker 11: and that's unique to Portland, but it's also an infill
Speaker 11: place where the land is expensive, and so just being
Speaker 11: able to offer that type of zoning where you can
Speaker 11: build more houses on smaller areas would bring down potentially
Speaker 11: bring down the cost. For example, in Houston, one of
Speaker 11: the largest home builders is building five hundred square foot
Speaker 11: homes detached, selling them for one hundred and eighty thousand dollars,
Speaker 11: and then you can do a two story version for
Speaker 11: you know, around two hundred thousand dollars, which works in
Speaker 11: Houston because there's really no zoning laws and the demand
Speaker 11: for that most exactly, it's just it's so affordable. People
Speaker 11: you know that want want a house there, they'll pay
Speaker 11: for that small a house. But in most cities the
Speaker 11: zoning laws would not allow for that type of development.
Speaker 11: Houston is just an anomaly. So we need to just
Speaker 11: make the zoning easier.
Speaker 9: What are you hearing from home builders about potential challenges
Speaker 9: labor given the crackdown on immigration, materials costs, given potentially
Speaker 9: a shortage, given that there's a lot of demand in
Speaker 9: Southern California post fires and rising costs you to tariffs.
Speaker 9: What are you hearing from them about that?
Speaker 11: Yeah, so the last two months we have seen home
Speaker 11: builder surveys and they're really not reporting any major changes
Speaker 11: in labor. So that is something that they're definitely keeping
Speaker 11: an eye on. But to date, nothing has really been
Speaker 11: affected on tariffs. I mean, we saw the first Trump
Speaker 11: administration have twenty percent tariffs on lumber, and actually lumber
Speaker 11: prices didn't spike until twenty twenty one under the Biden
Speaker 11: administration and then they settled back down into the mid
Speaker 11: six hundreds per thousand board foot. So home builders, you know,
Speaker 11: I was just talking to one of the luxury homebuilders,
Speaker 11: a national builder here, and they're protecting maybe five thousand
Speaker 11: dollars increase in overall home price for labor. But it's
Speaker 11: not They're cautiously watching but not really expecting home prices
Speaker 11: to go for the lumber.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 3: I think, Katie, one of the things that we've talked
Speaker 3: with you about is that how do we make sure
Speaker 3: it's not just about building homes, but building homes where
Speaker 3: we need them. And we've often talked about this has
Speaker 3: gone on for decades of major cities where it's expensive
Speaker 3: to live. But a lot of people work there, but
Speaker 3: they can't afford to live there. So how do we
Speaker 3: solve that problem.
Speaker 11: Well, as we've discussed before, you know that the administration
Speaker 11: has said, well, we're going to give federal lands out
Speaker 11: for development, which just doesn't work because those are going
Speaker 11: to be lands that are in the middle of nowhere,
Speaker 11: not close to job centers, and then just to go
Speaker 11: through the political bureocracy of Congress getting appraisals and the environmentalists,
Speaker 11: and then the developer ultimately has to be able to
Speaker 11: make money on that. That's not going to be land
Speaker 11: that's you know, in the middle of Alaska or Nevada
Speaker 11: where there's no infrastructure.
Speaker 3: So what do we need to do then.
Speaker 11: So again it goes back to you know, hopefully rates
Speaker 11: will come down, but rights.
Speaker 3: Have been lower and we still don't have enough afford
Speaker 3: housing and kind of some of the major cities where
Speaker 3: so many people work.
Speaker 11: Yes, and so really innovation is what's going to have
Speaker 11: to come in and home bolders are trying to find
Speaker 11: innovative ways to build. They're using modular using structural insulated panels,
Speaker 11: so building off site and bringing those materials on to
Speaker 11: reduce labor cost, but still it's it's it's not gonna
Speaker 11: there's really no silver bullet.
Speaker 9: I want to remind everybody Walting loisvill buys land, holds
Speaker 9: onto it, and then sells it to the big home builders.
Speaker 9: How's land acquisition going right now?
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's great. I mean, if you're we're going into
Speaker 11: tertiary markets for our clients, so places like you know,
Speaker 11: we're buying in Panama City, Savannah, Georgia, Augusta, Georgia, Tucson, Wilmington,
Speaker 11: North Carolina, so not those primary or secondary going to
Speaker 11: those next that next in line where land is still
Speaker 11: affordable and that does help bring down the cost.
Speaker 3: What's the most interesting trend in housing right now? Like
Speaker 3: it's the McMansion over they go. I'm just in those
Speaker 3: kinds of things.
Speaker 11: Yeah, I would just say the amenities really. Home bolders
Speaker 11: want to be able to build a home where you
Speaker 11: can have multi generation, so that entry level young family
Speaker 11: coming in and then you've got the move up house,
Speaker 11: and then you've got a place where mom and dad
Speaker 11: can you know, don't have to go to an assisted
Speaker 11: living facility, but they can have a single level home
Speaker 11: in the same neighborhood. So they want pickleball courts, they
Speaker 11: want swimming pools, they want all of the amenities to
Speaker 11: attract that generation. And from the land side, you need
Speaker 11: a big enough parcel of land to be able to
Speaker 11: build a master planned community like that, all.
Speaker 3: Right, master planning communities. Yeah, interesting, Katie, Thank you, thanks
Speaker 3: for coming back. Katiehubbard, Executive EP Capital Markets Ever at
Speaker 3: Walton Global.
Speaker 2: This is the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Listen live each
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Speaker 2: New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty
Speaker 2: Well Move Out.
Speaker 3: The Trump administration to block a one point four billion
Speaker 3: dollar program for green building retrofits has left hundreds of
Speaker 3: in progress affordable housing projects in limbo. Renovations for aging
Speaker 3: affordable housing projects across the US have been halted as
Speaker 3: developers seek answers or alternatives now. The Green and Resilient
Speaker 3: Retrofit program is one of a number of federal energy
Speaker 3: efficiency initiatives that Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency DOGE
Speaker 3: is looking to zero out to the frustration of affordable
Speaker 3: housing developers across the country.
Speaker 9: Austin Walker's undoubtedly watching what happens out of Washington closely.
Speaker 9: He's founder, CEO, managing principle at a walker In Company.
Speaker 9: It's a New York based private equity fund manager and
Speaker 9: it works with local firms and real estate management and development.
Speaker 9: He joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio.
Speaker 9: Austin Welcome. I want to get to what's happening in
Speaker 9: Washington in a minute, but first I just want to
Speaker 9: get an understanding of what exactly your firm does, because
Speaker 9: I think a lot of people would hear private equity
Speaker 9: and affordable housing and say, wait a second, these two
Speaker 9: things don't necessarily go hand in hand. Yeah, absolutely right.
Speaker 1: Affordable housing is developed and maintained and preserve through many
Speaker 1: different forms. You know, where there's many infacture housing, single
Speaker 1: family rentals, tax credit development, there's you know, firms like
Speaker 1: us that really find unique opportunities to deploy flexible capital
Speaker 1: to really develop and preserve these housing opportunities across the
Speaker 1: entire landscape.
Speaker 9: Affordabhouse which part of the landscape, deplan in all parts
Speaker 9: of it, all parts of it so even housing that
Speaker 9: is regulated by the government, Yes, how do you make
Speaker 9: money in that?
Speaker 1: A lot of it is feed generation. It's working through
Speaker 1: a lot of programming, working with local municipalities to program
Speaker 1: these opportunities. Right, it's part and parcel construction management, pricing
Speaker 1: and working with a number of different grants and set
Speaker 1: of programs. But it's largely driven really locally in terms
Speaker 1: of incentives and other programs available to basically you know,
Speaker 1: engineer capital stack to you know, create returns.
Speaker 3: How much of your business or investment is in that
Speaker 3: area specifically, I.
Speaker 1: Would say probably twenty thirty percent is allocated to that area.
Speaker 3: Is there any concern in terms of what's going on
Speaker 3: in government that some of that gets cut back?
Speaker 1: Yes, we got some favorable news. Last week was not
Speaker 1: so favorable. You saw the administration past executive orders cutting
Speaker 1: c d f I funds which are largely based on
Speaker 1: you know, grants made through that to fund Community development
Speaker 1: Finance institutions, which are a large cohort of financial liquidity
Speaker 1: to the affordable housing space and that in the form
Speaker 1: of loans, grants, other equity like subsidies. But they pass
Speaker 1: the continuing Resolution, which is you know, again fully funding
Speaker 1: you know HUD through which is the largest provider of
Speaker 1: you know, affordable housing through housing choice vouchers UH Section
Speaker 1: eight based you know, project based Section eight contracts supporting
Speaker 1: you know, rents and affordable rents.
Speaker 9: Have you already been affected by changing out to Washington
Speaker 9: in this administration?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I mean we've had transactions that had to get
Speaker 1: repriced installed because you know, either are financing you know,
Speaker 1: opportunities our lenders where either cd f I lenders and
Speaker 1: programs are dramatic changing. If you were going in with
Speaker 1: a CDFI on pricing at an eight percent fixed rate loan,
Speaker 1: and now you have to be you know, going midway
Speaker 1: through a transaction at hard money to close it close
Speaker 1: the transaction because you have deposits down that are hard.
Speaker 1: You could be facing a four hundred basse points increase
Speaker 1: in your cost of capital. These are real time changes
Speaker 1: that are affecting the economics.
Speaker 3: So is that making you pivot in terms of different
Speaker 3: you know, parts of your business, maybe spending more time elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think for us, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: things we were born out of largely a market rate
Speaker 1: development shop that focused mostly on workforce housing and attainable
Speaker 1: housing so that's really just housing at large, but more
Speaker 1: so C and B class housing, existing housing stock, which
Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, most of
Speaker 1: these policies, whether it's tariffs, immigration, other things, are going
Speaker 1: to affect the supply demand imbalances, which are already extreme
Speaker 1: due to you know, low housing starts, you know, especially
Speaker 1: coming out of the GFC. You know, COVID interest rates
Speaker 1: are so low. You finally got a little bit of
Speaker 1: a pop in in development, you know pipeline, but that's
Speaker 1: largely stalled due to the whips on interest rates coming
Speaker 1: back up. So you know, we look at that being
Speaker 1: a sustained problem just given that you know, tariffs are
Speaker 1: going to increase lumber prices, other inputs for construction, so
Speaker 1: construction costs going up. Immigration is going to affect labor
Speaker 1: supply and you know labor wage rates. These are already
Speaker 1: under extreme price pressures affecting the industry, and so we
Speaker 1: see a very big problem with deliveries. But that's actually
Speaker 1: good for existing housing, right because the demand is largely unchanged,
Speaker 1: and so you know, we probably are going to see
Speaker 1: inflationary pressure on rents as well, exacerbating the affordable housing problem.
Speaker 1: So it's quite complicated and you know what's going on
Speaker 1: right now across the sector.
Speaker 9: Katie Hubbard from Walton Global was just sitting in your
Speaker 9: seat about an hour ago, and she is in the
Speaker 9: city for meetings with her customers, who are the large
Speaker 9: developers of the land that her company sells to them,
Speaker 9: so the big home builders. She said, they're not yet
Speaker 9: seeing increased cost due to materials. She says, they're not
Speaker 9: seeing shoes when it comes to labor. Why are they
Speaker 9: telling her that they're not seeing that, but you're seeing that.
Speaker 1: So you have to think about it. I guess from
Speaker 1: a larger industry perspective, her and buyers largely publicly traded
Speaker 1: companies Pulti, the likes right, they are not only mandated
Speaker 1: by their boards to use legal labor versus the public
Speaker 1: the private sector, which you know is able to tap
Speaker 1: into a good point non legal immigrants for labor. There's
Speaker 1: a big divergence between those and they're such a large scale.
Speaker 1: They largely wholesale, bulk purchase and warehouse their materials, whether
Speaker 1: it's overseas otherwise. They can navigate a large shift where
Speaker 1: you have tariffs on Canadian lumber versus you know, bringing
Speaker 1: in cabinets from China at bulk, and they basically forwardlock
Speaker 1: their pipelines and they're able to price that out. They're
Speaker 1: not feeling it yet, but if this is a sustained,
Speaker 1: protracted tariff war that is more global in scope, you know,
Speaker 1: it can make it very very same.
Speaker 3: Thing with labor. I'm assuming those you know who are
Speaker 3: I guess you just US citizens or whatever they're going,
Speaker 3: they're going to have a certain labor pool, and I'm
Speaker 3: assuming those workers too are going to want their contracts
Speaker 3: with the big publicly held Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, because there's there's certainty. But I think there's another
Speaker 1: element to it. Renters, rental developers versus for sale developers.
Speaker 1: A lot of the Pulti Homes, Toll Brothers, the larger publics,
Speaker 1: their home builders their for sale product, so they're not necessarily,
Speaker 1: you know, worried so much about the input they can
Speaker 1: Largely it's such a supply constrained market. From a for
Speaker 1: sale there's no inventory, so new deliveries are largely going
Speaker 1: to be able to bear the price inflation that's going
Speaker 1: to come out of increased cost of construction on a
Speaker 1: for sale product. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: financing everything else. As far as you know, multifamily rental
Speaker 1: product is largely driven by the confluence of interest rates
Speaker 1: and what you can charge on a nominal price per rent,
Speaker 1: plus inflating expenses across insurance and other things. So it's
Speaker 1: largely a cash flow problem, and inflation is going to
Speaker 1: really impact housing development because you're solving to a cash
Speaker 1: flow that at some point you can't inflate out of,
Speaker 1: so those starts get halted.
Speaker 9: Hey, what do you see the federal government doing as
Speaker 9: far as making land available for building? That was a
Speaker 9: big part of the Trump administration's campaign, especially Jdvance took
Speaker 9: that on and talked about federal land. What do you
Speaker 9: see them doing?
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I think it's something certainly that
Speaker 1: they've been exploring. It is absolutely a big need. But
Speaker 1: I think the biggest issue that's going to come out
Speaker 1: of it is what are the local economies around federally
Speaker 1: owned land that are actually going to support the economic
Speaker 1: drivers that.
Speaker 9: Are There's a lot of federal land out west, but
Speaker 9: are there the but we're industries to support people moving
Speaker 9: to that part of the country.
Speaker 1: I think that's the biggest problem, you know, solver you know,
Speaker 1: I mean issue that's going to come up with federally
Speaker 1: owned land is how scalable is that for the capital markets?
Speaker 3: Where are the projects that you are involved in where
Speaker 3: they mostly located.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, we largely identify opportunities and municipalities
Speaker 1: that are creative to you know, being you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's pilot you know, payment in lieu of taxes, tax abatements,
Speaker 1: other programs where you're getting property tax offsets in exchange
Speaker 1: for housing affordability on the rental side, so capping your
Speaker 1: rents on a certain percentage of our renolds. So we're
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles mayor Bass Past eighty one. We just
Speaker 1: got a site approved there for vertical construction. We have
Speaker 1: acquisition preservation deal that we did in outside of Chicago
Speaker 1: and that was a great transaction, you know, where we
Speaker 1: worked with Fanni May on that that loan and you know,
Speaker 1: got a twenty five percent tax abatement on that for
Speaker 1: a very small asset aside for for rents. But it's
Speaker 1: largely a workforce housing area serving an amazing school district.
Speaker 1: But we're also in Florida, Houston, Atlanta, and we have
Speaker 1: you know, projects that really are across the affordability stretch spectrum.
Speaker 9: So we hear a lot about how difficult it is
Speaker 9: to build in California. Yeah, is that your experience?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 9: Is the California project that much more difficult than the
Speaker 9: other projects will be?
Speaker 1: And we have another one in Long Island that we're
Speaker 1: looking at very similar. You know, there's there's not a
Speaker 1: lot of parcels for development, and then the environmental red tape,
Speaker 1: the other local regulatory red tape heavy heavy, you know,
Speaker 1: politics in terms of permitting. Getting through that process takes
Speaker 1: an extremely well capitalized developer who has very very localized
Speaker 1: expertise in working through the building departments to navigate that process.
Speaker 1: Even on a largely ministerial approval process such as eighty one,
Speaker 1: it still was very very difficult and largely contested project
Speaker 1: to get through Ahson.
Speaker 3: Just to wrap up, who are the people that you
Speaker 3: are housing? I think there's maybe not an understanding of,
Speaker 3: you know, who all accesses? You know, what we talk
Speaker 3: about access is access affordable housing. Like who are they?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they're every They're everyday individuals. It's the
Speaker 1: folks serving you coffee. It's your waiters, your bus drivers,
Speaker 1: your teachers, firefighters. Every day folks right that are you know,
Speaker 1: really going to feel the effects of you know, when
Speaker 1: a cart and of eggs is thirteen bucks, in a
Speaker 1: gallon of milk is eight bucks. You know, these are
Speaker 1: people that are really you know, making it paycheck to paycheck.
Speaker 1: That's largely the cohort that we serve, and that's why
Speaker 1: these programs are really really necessary because you know, what
Speaker 1: creates housing affordability in terms of the extreme lack of
Speaker 1: supply is local zoning. Until there is a federal sweeping ability,
Speaker 1: which is likely not going to happen in terms of
Speaker 1: zoning approvals for multi family rezoning in commercial districts and everything,
Speaker 1: it's going to be really challenging to deliver the type
Speaker 1: of supply to actually naturally bring rents down. You have
Speaker 1: a small, you know, test case in Austin, Texas where
Speaker 1: they basically got rid of the permitting and zoning red tape.
Speaker 1: They delivered fifty five thousand units and rents came down
Speaker 1: by twenty five percent, and they will absolutely absorb those
Speaker 1: units because there's an extreme need test case where you could,
Speaker 1: you know, but doing that on a national level.
Speaker 3: Is going to be very great, super interesting. Thank you
Speaker 3: so much. Glad you stop by Austin Walker, founder ceomaging
Speaker 3: principle at a Walker and Company, joining us here on
Speaker 3: business suite, brother marcle, how about you let me drive?
Speaker 9: Oh no, no, no, no, this is not a toy,
Speaker 9: ug honey.
Speaker 3: Please, how do the riding gravels?
Speaker 2: Let's wake, I want to drive. It's a good question.
Speaker 1: Good.
Speaker 2: This is the drive to the clothes.
Speaker 9: Pongs for me a thing?
Speaker 2: Well, drill down on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3: All right, everybody, we're just about eighteen minutes away from
Speaker 3: the closing bell on this Thursday. Bouncing around here, Charlie
Speaker 3: Bill Maloney just of course breaking down the trade for you.
Speaker 3: Just a reminder, just down about two points on the
Speaker 3: S and P five hundred. Call it flat on the day,
Speaker 3: Dad John's industrial average, a decline of sixty seven points.
Speaker 3: Good for a decline of about two tents of a percent,
Speaker 3: same percentage decline, tim when it comes to the Nasdaq
Speaker 3: one hundred, down about forty three points, but again off
Speaker 3: our highs and lows of the session.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean the S and P five hundred right
Speaker 9: now is not even down one tenth of one percent.
Speaker 8: I know.
Speaker 3: Flat.
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's like searching for direction despite the bunch of
Speaker 9: tariffs I think caught some companies off guard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of interesting, right.
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's like, didn't this get telegraphed yesterday? I think
Speaker 9: the point that Jennifer Dellewey made earlier was there was
Speaker 9: a lot of confusion about whether or not would include
Speaker 9: auto parts companies, and it does. So you see those
Speaker 9: companies getting hit pretty hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there's more to come next week. So
Speaker 3: I think I don't know, I've got an inflation print tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Let's see what Katy Nixon has to say about all
Speaker 3: of it. She's chief investment officer at Northern Trust Wealth Management,
Speaker 3: joining us from Chicago. Katie, nice to check in with you.
Speaker 3: This environment, it's an interesting one and sometimes markets react,
Speaker 3: sometimes they don't, but they seem to move around a
Speaker 3: fair amount. How do you describe kind of where we
Speaker 3: are and what's top of mind for investors and maybe
Speaker 3: your clients, right, Carol.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for having me, And I
Speaker 4: guess I would just echo this sentiment that's been sort
Speaker 4: of persistent through through your coverage, and that is just
Speaker 4: this period of uncertainty. I don't think investors really know
Speaker 4: which way to turn right now. The market today is
Speaker 4: a really interesting example where you sort of look at
Speaker 4: the at the averages, look at the bond in the
Speaker 4: stock markets, and you say, not much going on, But
Speaker 4: beneath the surface there certainly is a lot of churn.
Speaker 5: So I think investors are looking for a guiding life here.
Speaker 4: They're looking for some certainty. And I guess what we're
Speaker 4: telling our clients.
Speaker 5: Is we may be waiting for we may be waiting
Speaker 5: a bit longer.
Speaker 4: If if we're looking for that period of calm or
Speaker 4: more or more certainty, I think we're going to be
Speaker 4: living with more volatility and a lot more news and noise. Frankly,
Speaker 4: that's going to impact markets for the foreseeable future.
Speaker 9: What is the foreseeable future? How much longer? I'm getting
Speaker 9: a little tired. I'm getting a little tired.
Speaker 4: No, I know. Well, I mean we're all looking forward
Speaker 4: to Liberation Day, of course, but we're getting some pre
Speaker 4: news here that's certainly market moving, and I'm not sure
Speaker 4: we're going to get the clarity that we probably need
Speaker 4: on April second. And by that I mean I think
Speaker 4: it'll still be a work in process. I think we've
Speaker 4: learned through the last several weeks and months. Frankly that
Speaker 4: you know, news evolves over time, things can change, so
Speaker 4: it's very hard to have a lot of confidence and
Speaker 4: what you hear is eventually going to be what turns
Speaker 4: into persistent policy that won't.
Speaker 5: Change over time.
Speaker 4: So I think this is a time for investors to
Speaker 4: really sit back and recognize the one important thing, which
Speaker 4: is we're buying companies, right We're not buying politics, we're
Speaker 4: not buying even economies. We're buying companies, and companies have
Speaker 4: showed remarkably through time the ability to navigate and to
Speaker 4: be resilient in the face of a lot of uncertainty.
Speaker 5: So although it's.
Speaker 4: Hard when you're reading the news and you're hearing about
Speaker 4: these things on a regular basis, it's hard to remind yourself,
Speaker 4: but it's important to remind yourself that at the end
Speaker 4: of the day, it's all about fundamentals, how companies are
Speaker 4: able to navigate this period of uncertainty, what the picture
Speaker 4: looks like on the other side. We don't necessarily know
Speaker 4: when we're going to get there, but we know we'll
Speaker 4: get there at that point. As an investor, what you
Speaker 4: really want to focus on is just the stability of
Speaker 4: the fundamentals.
Speaker 3: Right, but the stability of the fundamentals can be whipsaw
Speaker 3: based on the headlines that come out of Washington. And
Speaker 3: so if we don't see things settle down sometime soon,
Speaker 3: you know, does that once again make it hard to
Speaker 3: invest on the fundamentals?
Speaker 5: You know, it does to a certain extent, Carol.
Speaker 4: But I think again, once once companies know the rules
Speaker 4: of the road, they'll be able to navigate more resiliently.
Speaker 5: Right now, I think.
Speaker 4: Nobody knows what the rules of the road are going
Speaker 4: to be. Again, I use the word persistently because we
Speaker 4: might hear some news that could change, you know, in
Speaker 4: a week or two. So I think we will be
Speaker 4: in this period of fog for a bit here. And
Speaker 4: I think we're actually going to hear more about that
Speaker 4: from companies as they start to talk about their first
Speaker 4: quarter earnings results. We're going to hear more about how
Speaker 4: they're thinking about the navigation process here they as they
Speaker 4: are also facing this period of uncertainty.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, it's interesting. I feel like we just wrapped up earnings,
Speaker 3: right they were kind of just a few at the
Speaker 3: tail end. But I feel like we're already looking forward
Speaker 3: to earning because we want to hear what the C
Speaker 3: suite has to say about this environment. What are they
Speaker 3: doing or what are they not doing as a result
Speaker 3: of the volatility or the uncertainty going forward In the meantime,
Speaker 3: So an investor comes to you and says, I've got
Speaker 3: a portfolio or I've got some money I want to
Speaker 3: put to work. What do you do with it today?
Speaker 5: Well, again, they're always opportunities in markets. And what I
Speaker 5: would say is what we're seeing now is kind of
Speaker 5: a washout of sentiment. You know, we see bearishness, you
Speaker 5: know in the aai I survey staying you know, pretty
Speaker 5: bearish for an extended peer period of time, which is
Speaker 5: quite unusual and typically precedes decent periods of return for investors.
Speaker 5: So we would say to any investor that comes to
Speaker 5: us today, or frankly to our clients, get your strategic
Speaker 5: acid allocation in line and get yourself invested, recognizing that
Speaker 5: we're going to have a period of volatility, but also
Speaker 5: recognizing that as a long term investor, this is not
Speaker 5: a bad time to be putting money to work in
Speaker 5: the market.
Speaker 4: But we would say, in addition to that, Carol is
Speaker 4: start to think more globally. I think in the past
Speaker 4: several years, most investors have had this tremendous home country
Speaker 4: bias here in the US, and they've been right. The
Speaker 4: US has roundly outperformed everything, and it's really been on
Speaker 4: the backs of US large cap growth in a particular tech.
Speaker 4: We're telling our clients, and we would tell a new
Speaker 4: client to start.
Speaker 5: From a place of diversification.
Speaker 4: You want to have opportunities all across the world, and
Speaker 4: you also want to have opportunities away from just that
Speaker 4: super large cap US tech focus exposure and look at
Speaker 4: other areas of the US market. Look at value stocks,
Speaker 4: for example, as an interesting place to get some diversification.
Speaker 9: Right now, So, okay, US and value where do you?
Speaker 9: Where do you? I mean, look, nobody knows what's going
Speaker 9: to happen, but geographically, where do you see that performance
Speaker 9: this year?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 4: Short term, you know, prognostications are incredibly difficult. But what
Speaker 4: I will say is we're more confident in the performance
Speaker 4: of non US markets today than we were four or
Speaker 4: five months ago. And that confidence comes from the combination
Speaker 4: of monetary and fiscal stimulus that we see coming really
Speaker 4: to the four overseas.
Speaker 5: Clearly, you guys have covered Europe really well.
Speaker 4: We see, you know, a really extraordinary amount of fiscal
Speaker 4: stimulus being injected into an economy, and more importantly, into
Speaker 4: a market that tends to be very sensitive to that, right,
Speaker 4: defense spending, in structure spending, forget.
Speaker 3: So, Katie forget, just got about thirty seconds left. So
Speaker 3: do you want to commit a fair amount of money
Speaker 3: into Europe or not? Necessarily? Would you still stay with
Speaker 3: the US and just quickly if you could.
Speaker 5: No, you do, Carol.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, you want to be as diversified as the global
Speaker 4: markets and get your fair share of what could be
Speaker 4: some outsize returns over the near term as investors start
Speaker 4: to reposition their portfolios towards that opportunity.
Speaker 3: All right, we're going to leave it there, Hey, Katie,
Speaker 3: thank you so much. Katie Nixon, chief investment Officer at
Speaker 3: Northern Trust Wealth Management, joining us from Chicago on this Thursday.
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