Speaker 1: As we cover this fight for the speaker's gavel, what's
Speaker 1: really getting lost in a lot of the conversations that
Speaker 1: are happening is that this is also really a fight
Speaker 1: over process of how the House functions, how it should function,
Speaker 1: and the people posing Kevin McCarthy. It's not just about McCarthy.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you know, some of them really do
Speaker 1: have doubts about him, question him having you know, the
Speaker 1: fact that he's been in a leadership and has been
Speaker 1: in a position authority for so long. They don't trust him.
Speaker 1: But there's also the part of wanting changes to the process,
Speaker 1: of wanting changes to the things like the Rules Committee.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to have someone on to get into
Speaker 1: that process conversation. You know, the people who are listening,
Speaker 1: You guys are busy. You have a billion different things
Speaker 1: going on in your life. I wanted someone to walk
Speaker 1: through with us about why this stuff matters. So we're
Speaker 1: gonna have Dr Kevin Roberts on the show in this episode.
Speaker 1: He is the president of the Heritage Foundation, the nation's
Speaker 1: premier conservative think tank, on the show to to breakdown
Speaker 1: the process why all this matters. For instance, even if
Speaker 1: you look at the one point seven trillion dollar omnibus bill.
Speaker 1: Congress doesn't do its job anymore. The reason why we
Speaker 1: have these massive omnibus bills like we did one point
Speaker 1: seven trillion dollars four thousand one five pages that no
Speaker 1: one can read because they're given, you know, hours to
Speaker 1: read it, it's because Congress failed to pass all of
Speaker 1: its appropriations bills. They failed to pass them for twenty
Speaker 1: six straight years in a row. I mean, the last
Speaker 1: time Congress met the October first deadline was So why
Speaker 1: does this stuff matter? And it really does all matter, right,
Speaker 1: because the problem what we've seen in America is this
Speaker 1: centralization of power. When the House sees its authority, when
Speaker 1: it does things like even an omnibus bill, it leads
Speaker 1: to a broader centralization of power. In order to right
Speaker 1: the ship, in order to turn this country around, we
Speaker 1: need to make structural changes to the government, including the House,
Speaker 1: including Congress. So that's what I see this fight about.
Speaker 1: That's why I also think it's important. So we're going
Speaker 1: to talk to Dr Kevin and Roberts, president of the
Speaker 1: Heritage Foundation, of all of this. I think it's a
Speaker 1: really important conversation and I hope you enjoy it. Kevin
Speaker 1: Robert's president the Heritage Foundation. Thanks so much for making
Speaker 1: the time to come on the show. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: It's my pleasure. Lisa, thanks for everything you do. Oh,
Speaker 1: I appreciate what you do. And you know, Kevin, we
Speaker 1: look at this fight right now of Kevin McCarthy coming
Speaker 1: up short to get the speaker's gavel? Why do you
Speaker 1: think he has come up short of? It boils down
Speaker 1: to a trust factor, And there are two elements of that.
Speaker 1: The first is talking to members. Is I know that
Speaker 1: you do who are very thoughtful about it. These are
Speaker 1: people who are willing to see McCarthy be speaker. They
Speaker 1: have a very hard time given his track record, and
Speaker 1: I mean that respect fully of him to say that
Speaker 1: any any deal that they strike with him is going
Speaker 1: to be honored. And I think that's why this has
Speaker 1: taken so long. The second aspect is the perspective that
Speaker 1: I have as a lifelong movement conservative, and it's it's
Speaker 1: less about McCarthy in particular than it is about McCarthy
Speaker 1: kind of being the icon of a problem, and that
Speaker 1: is the Washington establishment, the swamp, and so all of
Speaker 1: the incentives in Washington is you and your audience. No, well,
Speaker 1: are oriented around spending too much, giving k Street lobbyists
Speaker 1: way too much influence, letting them write bills. And this
Speaker 1: process has has taken a long time because, thank goodness,
Speaker 1: members of the House had the courage to stand up
Speaker 1: and say, regardless of what someone thinks about Kevin McCarthy,
Speaker 1: good or bad or in between, we are going to
Speaker 1: use this process to do the work of the people,
Speaker 1: which is to bring order back to the House. And
Speaker 1: and that to some up here was such a shock
Speaker 1: to the system, Lisa, that it really did grind the
Speaker 1: whole proceedings to a halt. I'm so gratified because it's
Speaker 1: one of the few times in the last ten years
Speaker 1: that I've seen kind of regular people be able to
Speaker 1: take one to the swamp well. And I think that's
Speaker 1: what's sort of getting lost in the broader conversations, it
Speaker 1: seems like to me, is that this is a process fight, right,
Speaker 1: This is about changing the way Congress works, changing the
Speaker 1: way the House works, because we've really gone away from
Speaker 1: the mission of what the House is supposed to do,
Speaker 1: the work these individuals that we send to Congress are
Speaker 1: supposed to do. You know, for instance, I know some
Speaker 1: of the you know, some of the things that they're
Speaker 1: looking to change is just the balance of power on
Speaker 1: the Rules Committee. I don't think people really realize just
Speaker 1: how much power the Rules Committee has in dictating the
Speaker 1: floor agenda what they're voting on. So, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of get into some of these structural changes that these
Speaker 1: members are asking for and why that is important, why
Speaker 1: people should care about that. Yeah, I know when people
Speaker 1: hear the phrase rules committee, their eyes glaze over and say,
Speaker 1: it's it's DC speaking. To some extent, they would be right.
Speaker 1: But the way I every including some close friends, is
Speaker 1: it's like your family meeting, which you know, and my experience,
Speaker 1: happens on Sunday nights, and so the members of the
Speaker 1: Rules Committee fly into d C a day early and
Speaker 1: they basically set the agenda for House proceedings that week.
Speaker 1: The other aspect of that means that if the Rules
Speaker 1: Committee doesn't authorize a bill to be heard or committee
Speaker 1: proceedings to proceed, it doesn't happen. So you want to
Speaker 1: be on the Rules Committee if you want to exert
Speaker 1: the most influence in the chamber. The last aspect of this,
Speaker 1: which is the most relevant to all of these conversations
Speaker 1: surrounding McCarthy speakership is that conservatives have not had seats
Speaker 1: on the Rules Committee, and the most conservative of the House,
Speaker 1: the House Freedom Caucus, definitely haven't. So it is a
Speaker 1: would be a huge boon to conservative policy reform, which
Speaker 1: of course Heritage is interested in, and to some extent
Speaker 1: leading if there are more conservatives on the Rules Committee
Speaker 1: that there will be a direct correlation between their membership
Speaker 1: on that committee and seeing more conservative bills get to
Speaker 1: the floor. Well, and I think one of the and
Speaker 1: and that's why, you know, it's important because regardless who
Speaker 1: ends up being the speaker, why should anyone have absolute power? Right?
Speaker 1: We don't want anyone in any position of authority in
Speaker 1: the United States to have absolute power. In fact, that's
Speaker 1: the antithesis of what the United States is supposed to
Speaker 1: stand for. You know, we need these checks and balances,
Speaker 1: we need to balance out that power. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think one of the other concerns too, is the
Speaker 1: ability to make points of order on the floor of
Speaker 1: regarding amendments that aren't Germaine and far too often what
Speaker 1: we see in in Congress and what goes on to
Speaker 1: Capitol Hills. You've all these massive bills with so many
Speaker 1: things in it that aren't even relevant, like what the
Speaker 1: bill is supposed to be about. Uh. And and that's
Speaker 1: how we get a lot of garbage that ends up
Speaker 1: getting passed through Congress. It's so true. I mean, this week,
Speaker 1: I've taken so many barbs. It's far fewer than the
Speaker 1: than the twenty members, for sure, but so many barbs
Speaker 1: for saying that this is not chaos, or if it
Speaker 1: is chaos, it's welcome chaos, because the real chaos, to
Speaker 1: your point, in the House has been they haven't passed
Speaker 1: a budget in over a decade. The one member can't
Speaker 1: offer an amendment without getting permission from the speaker. For
Speaker 1: for Americans who just in their common sense say that
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, they would be right, because a well
Speaker 1: functioning legislative body, especially one that is apportioned according to population,
Speaker 1: needs to be as little d democratic or as as
Speaker 1: democratic as it can and and these rules stand in
Speaker 1: the way of an individual member being able to represent
Speaker 1: his or her constituents. So what all of this is
Speaker 1: about is, as we like to say, returning to regular order.
Speaker 1: What regular order means is that you have a House
Speaker 1: that passes a budget. You have a House that actually,
Speaker 1: when it says it's going to give members three days
Speaker 1: to read a bill before they have to vote on it,
Speaker 1: does so, and a House where the committee agenda is posted.
Speaker 1: None of that has been going on. And the reason
Speaker 1: that none of that has been going on isn't just
Speaker 1: the terrible problem you mentioned, which is the centralization of
Speaker 1: power in the speaker's hands, personified by Nancy Pelosi, but
Speaker 1: something even more defarious, and that is that K Street
Speaker 1: lobbying firms right bills and write the scripts of how
Speaker 1: those bill debates are going to go, which means there
Speaker 1: aren't any debates. All of this well, not a complete win,
Speaker 1: yet I think does signify that we're beginning. Good guys
Speaker 1: are beginning to get grips on the swamp in terms
Speaker 1: of House rules and proceedings, and we can convert that
Speaker 1: into some conservative policy wins, even if it's just two
Speaker 1: or three this spring, then I think we're beginning to
Speaker 1: take back Washington for the American people. Well, and what's
Speaker 1: interesting too, is that you know, we're talking about Congress,
Speaker 1: which has an atrocious approval ratings, So the vast, vast,
Speaker 1: vast majority of Americans do not approve of the way
Speaker 1: that Congress does business, and then here you have people
Speaker 1: trying to change the way Congress does business and they're
Speaker 1: getting attacked. So it's like, you know what you mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of nothing makes sense these days. No,
Speaker 1: it's like everything is inverted. You know, you're like you
Speaker 1: My first reaction to all of this, I saw that
Speaker 1: this was going to happen, uh New Year's Eve, New
Speaker 1: Year's Day, was this is awesome. And then even friendly
Speaker 1: news outlets, friendly news commentators, friends to both of us,
Speaker 1: their first responses I thought were really off base. I
Speaker 1: won't call them out because I think they were well intentioned,
Speaker 1: but they were thinking, this isn't how it's supposed to work.
Speaker 1: And I'm sitting there thinking, no, it is how it's
Speaker 1: supposed to work. This is democracy in action. But the
Speaker 1: swamp has conditioned us to some really bad habits and behavior.
Speaker 1: So even people who are genuine conservatives and very thoughtful
Speaker 1: news commentators were kind of duped. And it's been interesting
Speaker 1: to see you over the last several days that the
Speaker 1: conservative commentary on this has really come home, so to speak.
Speaker 1: We realize we need to talk like conservatives rather than
Speaker 1: how the establishment wants us to. Well, that's a great point,
Speaker 1: you know, And part of it is so I remember
Speaker 1: banging on Lou Dobbs when I was first getting started
Speaker 1: in in media, and I was trying to explain the
Speaker 1: appropriations process, and he asked me, point blank, Lisa, do
Speaker 1: you think the audience's eyes are glazed over? It was
Speaker 1: like I hadn't thought about it. I thought it was interesting,
Speaker 1: you know. But but so part of the challenge and
Speaker 1: communicating a lot of this is explaining, you know, trying
Speaker 1: to get across of why all this stuff matters and
Speaker 1: why they want, you know, why we should be taking
Speaker 1: back the reins of power, you know. And part of that,
Speaker 1: you know, when you had mentioned the budget and we
Speaker 1: look at this, you know, one point seven trillion dollar
Speaker 1: on amnibus. We've got trillions of dollars spent during COVID
Speaker 1: on quote unquote relief which went to you know, things
Speaker 1: like building uh stadiums and stuff like that. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: you've got uh, you know, we know Congress can't read
Speaker 1: you know, four thousand and are pages and no matter
Speaker 1: of a couple of hours, right Uh. And then so anyway,
Speaker 1: so so we've got like this failure to past appropriations bills.
Speaker 1: We've got all this spending, how do you explain to
Speaker 1: the American people, You know, I guess why and over
Speaker 1: thirty one trillion dollar debt matters? Or why in appropriations
Speaker 1: getting those bills done in the in the regular order
Speaker 1: for appropriations process matters. Yeah. I think the way we
Speaker 1: we sometimes explained it, and I'm guilty of this, is
Speaker 1: is you divide up the thirty one trillion by the
Speaker 1: number of Americans and you say, you see it matters.
Speaker 1: It's a really big number. And I tried this out
Speaker 1: on my own kids, and they looked at me and said, Dad, um,
Speaker 1: that's so much money. I can't even comprehend it. And
Speaker 1: I think most Americans react that way, that that's so
Speaker 1: many zeros after the thirty one they can't comprehend it.
Speaker 1: So I think the much more effective way is to
Speaker 1: draw the connection between spending that money on different examples
Speaker 1: of plans, whether it be your tax money on a
Speaker 1: you know, on a football stadium halfway across the country.
Speaker 1: That football stadium might be a good idea for those
Speaker 1: people there, let them pay for it rather than me,
Speaker 1: or as a sort of my favorite examples, Lisa the
Speaker 1: amount of money we're spending on ridiculous programs and education
Speaker 1: that just on their face aren't about education. They're really
Speaker 1: about a very radical agenda very few Americans agree with.
Speaker 1: In other words, to show that the whole process is
Speaker 1: built to be not transparent, and we know that anything
Speaker 1: that doesn't have the light of day generally is not
Speaker 1: going to be good, especially when it's in Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: And then when you get to the actual nuts and
Speaker 1: bolts of the budget, not only just the sheer size
Speaker 1: of it, but the examples of what we're spending money on,
Speaker 1: for that matter, including some defense programs, which is a
Speaker 1: real sensitive point for Republicans who are defense hawks, you
Speaker 1: begin to understand that those whole processes oriented around making
Speaker 1: the most power, creating the most power in Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: Freedom is a zero sum thing. It's you know, if
Speaker 1: it's a if it's a pie and the government's taking
Speaker 1: seven eighths of that, we only get one. We're not
Speaker 1: able to make a bigger pie. And so what we
Speaker 1: have to understand is that there is a direct correlation
Speaker 1: between the lack of transparency in the process plus the
Speaker 1: amount of money being spent and a decrease in our
Speaker 1: own self governance. Quick break back with Dr Kevin Roberts.
Speaker 1: I hope more people have opened their eyes because I know,
Speaker 1: you know, COVID was a real awakening moment of me
Speaker 1: of just realizing how little power we really have over
Speaker 1: our own lives these days, you know, and how much
Speaker 1: the people in charge, you know, how they don't believe
Speaker 1: in individual liberty and they don't believe in the things
Speaker 1: this country as supposed to stand for. So, you know,
Speaker 1: to your point, the more power that Congress seeds to
Speaker 1: the executive branch, or the more that uh, these you know,
Speaker 1: institutions don't do their jobs and the way they're supposed to,
Speaker 1: we end up in the position where we've were during COVID,
Speaker 1: in the direction we're going in, where you know, we
Speaker 1: really have a government that's working against us, whether for
Speaker 1: it as opposed to for us. Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And and and to really underscore that point, I think
Speaker 1: about the natural reaction most conservatives have to Washington's power,
Speaker 1: and this is this is this information. I'm just going
Speaker 1: to point out a flaw in that, and that inclination
Speaker 1: is to put more emphasis on state power, more emphasis
Speaker 1: on so called local control, well, the problem, you know,
Speaker 1: another two dots to connect the problem with that amount
Speaker 1: of federal spending is that it begins to put guard
Speaker 1: rails on what states and localities can do. And so
Speaker 1: if we experience more direct influence over those elected officials
Speaker 1: who are closest to us, our city councilmen, are county commissioners,
Speaker 1: are state legislators, perhaps even our governors, if their own
Speaker 1: authority is being undermined by the amount of power that
Speaker 1: Washington has, then you begin to see the picture, which
Speaker 1: is that that dysfunction in Washington has a direct effect
Speaker 1: on us in our daily lives. Talk to I'm going
Speaker 1: to encourage your audience to do this. Talk to your
Speaker 1: city council member, Republican or Democrat or independent, and ask
Speaker 1: them what's the what's the influence of Washington spending on
Speaker 1: your town, spending on your city spending? It dominates it.
Speaker 1: And so what what the government has tried to do
Speaker 1: is established this one to one relationship with us, with
Speaker 1: each citizen. That's not what the founders wanted, because what
Speaker 1: they wanted was to diffuse power as much as they
Speaker 1: could across many different communities and people so that it's
Speaker 1: never centralized the process to sum up here and the
Speaker 1: spending are are all very bad signs of rotten fruit unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Power to to your point, and also part of it is,
Speaker 1: you know, having you know, governors and people who are
Speaker 1: willing to be fighters and stand up against the federal government.
Speaker 1: You know, I live in Florida, very thankful to have
Speaker 1: someone like Governor to Santis who is not afraid to
Speaker 1: to have that fight. You know, I was arguing on
Speaker 1: on Twitter a while back that conservative governor should form
Speaker 1: a coalition like almost like the Freedom Caucus to some degree,
Speaker 1: because you know, we've got the r g A, but
Speaker 1: oftentimes you know that they're not really challenging the federal
Speaker 1: powers as much as they should. And so you know,
Speaker 1: having some sort of like collective group of conservative governors
Speaker 1: because you know, we control so many triffect us throughout
Speaker 1: the country, I think that would go a long way
Speaker 1: of sort of banding together and uh, you know, fighting
Speaker 1: the federal government on a lot of these big issues.
Speaker 1: We need to do so much more of that, and
Speaker 1: and that's one of the things that we're trying to do,
Speaker 1: and HERITAGEES has really helped to facilitate that kind of thing,
Speaker 1: especially in the two years left that we have in
Speaker 1: Biden's first term, not controlling both chambers of Congress, that
Speaker 1: perhaps even more powerful than the majority in the House,
Speaker 1: even if that majority ends up being effective and bold
Speaker 1: and all those things. To your point is if we
Speaker 1: have five or or a dozen conservative governors who are
Speaker 1: banding together. We've seen a little bit of that with
Speaker 1: the border security issue. You've seen Governor to Santis and
Speaker 1: Governor Nome, then Governor Doc really help out Governor Abbot
Speaker 1: and Texas who was bearing the front of of Biden's
Speaker 1: nonsense at the border. We also saw it a little
Speaker 1: bit on healthcare back when Obamacare was a debate. But
Speaker 1: I'll also mention a huge success story, and it's it's
Speaker 1: under Obama's Clean Power Plan. There was a formal interstate compact,
Speaker 1: which has been used several times in our country's history,
Speaker 1: where about ten or twelve states got together and said
Speaker 1: we are just not going to implement these policies. That
Speaker 1: was crucial. Even though that ended up being the Clean
Speaker 1: Power Plan just struck down in court, it was crucial
Speaker 1: to building a public awareness about how bad that policy is.
Speaker 1: So I think, moving forward and quickly, we need to
Speaker 1: pick those two or three issues where we could really
Speaker 1: help ban some conservative governors together, to paraphrase Buckley here
Speaker 1: stand out for our history and say inmanti of governors
Speaker 1: even holding a press conference together and saying this is
Speaker 1: how we're going to keep the government in check on
Speaker 1: even during COVID or whatever the issue is. And they're
Speaker 1: all saying the same thing or holding the line that
Speaker 1: says a lot more. And you know, just an individual
Speaker 1: governor waging these fights and then getting bludgeoned by you know,
Speaker 1: a progressive media and people that are carrying the water
Speaker 1: for the left, which is a lot of people these days.
Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to ask you, looking ahead, looking
Speaker 1: at this Congress, what do you want to see from
Speaker 1: Republican let House. Well, I want to see a good
Speaker 1: combination of three things. First, oversight and a proper amount
Speaker 1: of oversight. I'll explain a little bit what I mean
Speaker 1: by that. Secondly, some shorter term tactical victories which I
Speaker 1: know may die in the Senate, but it's important for
Speaker 1: the House Republicans to exert the control that they have.
Speaker 1: And and thirdly, one or two long term visionary bills
Speaker 1: that of course we know will not pass the Senate,
Speaker 1: and even if they would be vetoed by Biden. But
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with those, and the reason is
Speaker 1: that I think the greatest thing that's missing in the
Speaker 1: conservative movement right now is an aspirational vision of what
Speaker 1: a more conservative governance looks like. And so at Heritage,
Speaker 1: we're we're we're helping to write a bill that would
Speaker 1: eliminate the U. S Department of Education. Now, you and
Speaker 1: I both know that if that happens, it's going to
Speaker 1: be take a lot of years. But that's the kind
Speaker 1: of thing that, as one example, the House Republicans should
Speaker 1: pass because it will show Americans this is the fix
Speaker 1: to all of the things you're feeling in your local
Speaker 1: school districts. The more tactical, short term knife fighting, as
Speaker 1: I like to call it, would be things like refusing
Speaker 1: to implement any program in the Department of Homeland Security
Speaker 1: that's not zealously focused on border security, refusing to fund
Speaker 1: the eight seven thousand r S agents. I know that
Speaker 1: that money has been allocated for the current budget cycle.
Speaker 1: But going back to our conversation about the Rules Committee,
Speaker 1: if there are conservatives on that Rules Committee not to
Speaker 1: sort of too deeply an inside baseball. Here there is
Speaker 1: a way to retract that funding and and instead go
Speaker 1: hire more border patrol agents. These aren't just messaging bills.
Speaker 1: They actually can improve the quality of lives for many Americans,
Speaker 1: especially on the border. But then the first thing I mentioned,
Speaker 1: which is oversight, something that that Heritage is doing through
Speaker 1: our Oversight project. We need to make sure that the
Speaker 1: House Republicans are picking two or three gigantic oversight battles.
Speaker 1: I happen to think they're about the border, the FBI,
Speaker 1: maybe some of the diversity equity and inclusion nonsense, and education,
Speaker 1: and we need to have them conduct investigations about those things.
Speaker 1: But it cannot just be investigations if if all we're
Speaker 1: doing is putting on a show for conservative media outlets,
Speaker 1: Heritage has no interest in that. We want those oversight
Speaker 1: investigations to lead to policy change ultimately so that we
Speaker 1: restore freedom to the American people. Some combination of those
Speaker 1: three things I think not only will be successful and
Speaker 1: actually mildly improve americans lives this year, but very importantly
Speaker 1: for the election cycle, it's going to show candidates for
Speaker 1: every office from president down to state legislature the kinds
Speaker 1: of things you need to talk about in order to
Speaker 1: build a governing majority, something like the Benghazi Committee, where
Speaker 1: it's just sort of a you know, we need something
Speaker 1: like a Church committee or you know, where we're having
Speaker 1: sort of methodical, thoughtful conversations and also structural ways that
Speaker 1: we want to change things moving forward, because I really
Speaker 1: think the only way this country survives, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: is to have people in government that are dedicated to
Speaker 1: destroying government, because we've just gotten so big, We've lost
Speaker 1: so much control of our lives, We've lost so much
Speaker 1: liberty during COVID. I mean, it just escalated so quickly
Speaker 1: that the only way that the Republic survives is people
Speaker 1: that want to destroy government. As It's just the way
Speaker 1: I see it. Yeah, that's exactly right, And we both
Speaker 1: run the risk of being called insurrectionists for saying that,
Speaker 1: including by some former Conservatives. But the point you're making
Speaker 1: is a crucial one. Any member of a previous political
Speaker 1: generation in this country, and I dare say, Republican or Democrat,
Speaker 1: who has plopped into this era that we're in, looking
Speaker 1: at the power and and sort of nefarious exercise of
Speaker 1: that power by government, especially during COVID, would be horrified
Speaker 1: and so anyone who's intellected office, whether it's state legislature,
Speaker 1: but especially in d C, needs to have the mindset,
Speaker 1: especially towards the administrative state, of destroying it. And even
Speaker 1: this very day, Lisa I said something like that and
Speaker 1: someone said, you know, some smart guy said, well, that
Speaker 1: doesn't sound very conservative, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: we have so much work to do and in helping
Speaker 1: Americans understand that this republic is very far gone. You know,
Speaker 1: we we might be in the last chapter. I happen
Speaker 1: to think we're not in the last chapter, but we're
Speaker 1: at that pivot point and that that climax of the
Speaker 1: plot where the good guys have to rise up otherwise
Speaker 1: we're going to lose it. All right, quick commercial break
Speaker 1: more with the press or the Herrhage Foundation. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you really look at what's holding us together, it's
Speaker 1: you know, things like the First Amendment, which they're destroying,
Speaker 1: as we saw with the FBI working with big tech
Speaker 1: to essentially skirt the first event to violate it. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Second Amendment. You know, these things that still
Speaker 1: give individual liberty and still give power to the people,
Speaker 1: which is why you know, obviously they're trying to destroy it.
Speaker 1: But you know, to to your point, it's really you know,
Speaker 1: we're kind of hanging on to a structural like a
Speaker 1: structural skeleton is really what we've got left of holding
Speaker 1: us together. Um. You know, how difficult do you think,
Speaker 1: you know, regardless if it's you know, McCarthy, whoever the
Speaker 1: speaker is, it's gonna be very difficult to obviously keep
Speaker 1: I think there's two twenty two in line, uh, to
Speaker 1: to try to not even in line, you know, really
Speaker 1: just to try to hear the interest of all of
Speaker 1: its members and you know, kind of come together on stuff.
Speaker 1: What do you think that's gonna look like? Well, it's
Speaker 1: gonna go one of two ways. If the I'll give
Speaker 1: you the worst case scenario first, although I think it's
Speaker 1: a little more likely to go better. The worst case
Speaker 1: scenario is is totally dysfunctional because the Democrats are so
Speaker 1: good at driving wedging wedges into Republican caucuses and obviously
Speaker 1: they've got the complicit nature of the media. Um. And
Speaker 1: then of course Republicans can can do that to themselves too.
Speaker 1: And if that's the case, then there will be very
Speaker 1: little that happens. And you know, Biden's handlers end up
Speaker 1: running a good reelection campaign and there's a real race.
Speaker 1: And point four, I happen to think that I'm mildly
Speaker 1: in this camp that there's a decent shot that if
Speaker 1: the Republicans focus on some combination of of what I mentioned,
Speaker 1: very selective, persistent oversight and investigations that lead the policy
Speaker 1: reforms on the border, the FBI, for example, very important
Speaker 1: focus on fiscal restraint, and then one or two other
Speaker 1: big issues that are you know, they're not going to
Speaker 1: pass the Senate. President is not going to sign them,
Speaker 1: but you're giving the American people a sense of what
Speaker 1: the left is obstructing with all of their nonsense. Then
Speaker 1: I think that that looks successful. The open question is
Speaker 1: is there enough courage in house leadership, in Senate leadership
Speaker 1: on the Republican side to make that happen. That's where
Speaker 1: the work that you do, that we do, a heritage
Speaker 1: that regular Americans do is so important. I know that
Speaker 1: many people are on the brink of despair, many people
Speaker 1: are fatigued or on the brink of fatigue. I'm just
Speaker 1: letting you know, and there's no hollow optimism here. I
Speaker 1: promise you that now is the time to dig deep,
Speaker 1: because if we can get this very slim, kind of
Speaker 1: lobbily Republican majority in the House to do just some
Speaker 1: fraction of that, then not only are we going to
Speaker 1: make americans lives better, now, we're going to set the
Speaker 1: foundation for which may be the last presidential electric electical.
Speaker 1: We have to take the republic back. You look at
Speaker 1: the mail and ballot stuff happening as well. I really
Speaker 1: think that this is the last election that a Republican
Speaker 1: could win. And you really have to have a flawless
Speaker 1: candidate running a flawless campaign, making no mistakes, head down,
Speaker 1: hard working, disciplined and executing or you know, executing on
Speaker 1: on every level at full cylinders and and to the
Speaker 1: point you know, of trying to get things done with
Speaker 1: such a small majority in the House. You know, it
Speaker 1: really does come down to leadership. And if you have
Speaker 1: good leaders at works. I mean, you look at the
Speaker 1: state of Florida, govern understand this one by twenty points.
Speaker 1: Even looking at Texas, you abbot cleaned up these people
Speaker 1: who have had the chance to lead with Republican you
Speaker 1: know politics, Republican UH policy positions can win the challenges
Speaker 1: in the House and the Senate. We have leaders but
Speaker 1: they're not being the one. They're not the ones that
Speaker 1: are being trusted with power. You know, we do have
Speaker 1: transformational people. You know in the House, you've got people
Speaker 1: like Chip war or even you know Thomas Massey who
Speaker 1: really proved himself during COVID to be a leader, you know,
Speaker 1: Rampaul in the Senate. We we've got guys that can
Speaker 1: do it. It's just, you know, they're not the ones
Speaker 1: being trusted with power is the problem. That's the problem.
Speaker 1: And that's why, you know, a Heritage I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: we have a five O one C four, a campaign
Speaker 1: arm Heritage Action that's very active in all of these debates.
Speaker 1: And and I guess the one bit of of optimism
Speaker 1: that I would inject into your your sober and accurate
Speaker 1: diagnosis is as I look at the ranks of state
Speaker 1: legislators on the conservative side, as I look at the
Speaker 1: new Conservative school board members, our movement is building a
Speaker 1: bench that's going to fill the potentially fill the ranks
Speaker 1: of members of the House and Senate. I think about j.
Speaker 1: D Vance coming into the Senate. We need to get
Speaker 1: to the point and soon where we're we don't even
Speaker 1: have time to talk about the long list of people
Speaker 1: who are like j D and my good Friendship Roy
Speaker 1: and Thomas Massey. But I believe that is going to
Speaker 1: be that that that pivot cycle, not just one where
Speaker 1: the right defeats the left, but one where as evidence
Speaker 1: over the speaker battle the settle some scores internally and
Speaker 1: realizes what time it does in America, and and the
Speaker 1: time that it is is that it's it's not time
Speaker 1: to be a moderate establishment Republican. It's time to go
Speaker 1: to Congress and govern on behalf of your people in
Speaker 1: their own freedoms upset with the fight that's happening now,
Speaker 1: you know. One, in addition to being process, it's also
Speaker 1: sort of a battle over the Republican party. And then secondly,
Speaker 1: we're not in status quo times anymore, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean we're in a completely different period of American history
Speaker 1: where you know, as as we're talking, will the republic
Speaker 1: continue to stand? I mean, this isn't you know, This
Speaker 1: isn't ten years ago where you could get away with
Speaker 1: the status quo figure. I mean, this is a time
Speaker 1: where we're hanging on by a thread. And so if
Speaker 1: there was ever a time to have these fights to
Speaker 1: to to battle, it out to you know, be strong,
Speaker 1: to be messy. You know, now is the time because
Speaker 1: we don't have any time left. It's you know, sadly,
Speaker 1: it's like completely. I mean, I'm a natural optimist. I
Speaker 1: think that comes from my face. Um as I tell people,
Speaker 1: I'll hopefully when in the next life, but this life
Speaker 1: seems to be a little bit in question. On my
Speaker 1: most optimistic days, I say we've got two election cycles
Speaker 1: to take the country back. I think more and more
Speaker 1: it might just be that very next one. And and
Speaker 1: to your point, the status quo is terrible for free people.
Speaker 1: And think about you. You've referenced COVID a couple of times.
Speaker 1: The United States of America just deferring, even under a
Speaker 1: friendly administration. I dare say to the World Health Organization
Speaker 1: hopefully as conservative as we realize most institutions in this
Speaker 1: country and around the world have been co opted by
Speaker 1: the left. And we have to have the attitude of
Speaker 1: building our own, which includes rebuilding our own movement in
Speaker 1: the Republican Party. I more than think I know that
Speaker 1: this is going on. The question is will it Will
Speaker 1: it succeed quickly enough for it to bear fruit to
Speaker 1: save the Republican that's an awakening moment for me. I
Speaker 1: think I sort of previously kind of took advantag edge
Speaker 1: of the fact we're a free nation and and sort
Speaker 1: of thinking that we're always going to be free and
Speaker 1: somehow we're immune to tyranny, and then COVID really just
Speaker 1: awakened me in the sense of we're not you know,
Speaker 1: we are immune. We're not immune, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: so that's why all these fights, even small ones, are important,
Speaker 1: and so you know, it's it's it was just an
Speaker 1: awakening for me, and I think for a lot of people,
Speaker 1: I hope as well. Uh, you know, Kevin, that's been
Speaker 1: a really interesting conversation. Is there anything I'm missing that
Speaker 1: you want to convey to the audience in the conversation
Speaker 1: that we've had, anything important that you think people should
Speaker 1: know as we you know, look ahead here in terms
Speaker 1: of timeline and taking the republic back, Yes, what the
Speaker 1: House Republicans do this spring this year is really important.
Speaker 1: It really is. But I would argue that even more
Speaker 1: important than that will be the handful of legislative sessions
Speaker 1: and states that are really influential. So the legislative agendas
Speaker 1: in Georgia and Florida in Texas other places I'm not
Speaker 1: thinking of right now, with with good legislators and governor,
Speaker 1: if those are successful, that's the blueprint for re establishing
Speaker 1: common sense and freedom in the country. And so I
Speaker 1: would just encourage people to pay as much attention to
Speaker 1: those and be as involved in those as they are
Speaker 1: in federal politics. What's going on in d C in
Speaker 1: the last several days has been important. It isn't that
Speaker 1: it's a side show. It's just that we're better off
Speaker 1: when we're making that kind of policy progress in our
Speaker 1: state capitals, because that's going to become the policy agenda
Speaker 1: for the next time if we get it next time.
Speaker 1: For significant conservative control of the DC and in your
Speaker 1: state and local politics matters as much, if not probably
Speaker 1: more than you know some of these conversations we're having
Speaker 1: on the federal level. And I've got not given up
Speaker 1: hope either. I still think we can turn the ship around.
Speaker 1: It's just we need to as your point, we need
Speaker 1: to be aware of what time it is and what's
Speaker 1: going on in the country. Kevin Roberts, appreciate your voice,
Speaker 1: Appreciate the work you're doing. Thank you for fighting for freedom,
Speaker 1: and thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: your time, sir, my pleasure. We'll keep fighting. Take care
Speaker 1: m h. So that was Kevin Roberts, president of the
Speaker 1: Heritage Foundation, which with what I think is an important
Speaker 1: conversation about the future of the country, how we take
Speaker 1: power back from the government. I hope you enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you at home for listening. I
Speaker 1: want to thank John Castio, my producer, for putting the
Speaker 1: show together every Monday and Thursday, but you can listen
Speaker 1: throughout the week. Feel free to leave us to review,
Speaker 1: leave us a rating on Apple Podcast. Always enjoy reading
Speaker 1: those Until next time.