Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Why are so many of the people that I meet
Speaker 2: all across America and increasing across the world, why are
Speaker 2: they so unhappy? Why do they feel that sense of
Speaker 2: emptiness that so many people describe. So many people would say,
Speaker 2: I guess this is just the way life is. I
Speaker 2: guess it's like everyone's feeling this way. It's that's just life.
Speaker 2: And I refuse to believe that because I don't think
Speaker 2: that we are consigned to live a life of emptiness
Speaker 2: where we're just unhappy, because that life is hard and
Speaker 2: as a result unhappy. Life can be hard, and life
Speaker 2: often is hard, but that doesn't mean that it has
Speaker 2: to be unfulfilling.
Speaker 3: That's doctor Vivek Morphy, he served as the US Surgeon
Speaker 3: General under both President Obama and President Biden. This is
Speaker 3: the vague second time on the show. The first time
Speaker 3: he joined us, we explored the science of loneliness and
Speaker 3: how bad it can be for our long term health,
Speaker 3: but we didn't get to talk about how to actually
Speaker 3: build stronger, more meaningful connections in our lives. I wanted
Speaker 3: to hear Vivgu's advice on this topic because when I
Speaker 3: hear that it's important to quote create community I feel intimidated,
Speaker 3: like where do I start? Should I be signing up
Speaker 3: for a bunch of clubs or striking up small talk
Speaker 3: with strangers? Maybe you can relate, but I'm feeling really
Speaker 3: tired right now, and the idea of adding more items
Speaker 3: to my to do list is exhausting. But as you'll
Speaker 3: hear in this conversation, it turns out that building stronger
Speaker 3: connection isn't necessarily about doing more. It's about being intentional
Speaker 3: about the way we interact with the people and communities
Speaker 3: we already have in our lives. I left this conversation
Speaker 3: with a far more expansive understanding of what connection can
Speaker 3: look like in my life, and I hope you will too.
Speaker 3: I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and
Speaker 3: this is a slight change of plans, a show about
Speaker 3: who we are and who we become in the face
Speaker 3: of a big change.
Speaker 2: In its deepest sense, community is a place where we
Speaker 2: know each other, where we help each other, and where
Speaker 2: we find purpose in contributing to each other's lives. That's
Speaker 2: what makes a real community. Okay, It's what my father
Speaker 2: had when he was in a small village in India
Speaker 2: growing up. He was really poor. He didn't and when
Speaker 2: I say poor, I mean there are levels of poor.
Speaker 2: He was really really poor. I mean they didn't have
Speaker 2: enough money to buy slippers or shoes. So the first
Speaker 2: time he wore something on his feet was when he
Speaker 2: was fifteen, and he got because he wasn't used to it.
Speaker 2: They didn't have enough food around the table most nights,
Speaker 2: so they just kept pouring more water, you know, to
Speaker 2: dilute the dolls so there would be enough to fill,
Speaker 2: you know, each child's bowl. Times were tough. But interestingly,
Speaker 2: he told me he never felt lonely until he left
Speaker 2: his village. That even though they were poor materially, they
Speaker 2: were rich in community, and people knew each other there.
Speaker 2: They actually looked out for each other. They would invite
Speaker 2: someone in just to come talk if they were, you know,
Speaker 2: hanging out outside the house or if they were walking
Speaker 2: down the street. They also helped each other. When my
Speaker 2: father's mother died when he was ten from tuberculosis, the
Speaker 2: whole village stepped in and became surrogate parents to him
Speaker 2: and his five siblings. That is what community really is now.
Speaker 2: That is a It can feel like a lofty goal,
Speaker 2: and especially if you don't have any sense of community
Speaker 2: of life right now. Yeah, it can feel like a
Speaker 2: big distance to go, but here's what I would say.
Speaker 2: The path to building community is made up of small steps.
Speaker 2: It's not like you need to completely quit your job,
Speaker 2: move to a different city, like transform everything. You can
Speaker 2: start very small, right. So, one of the things is
Speaker 2: a few things I often suggest that people do, just
Speaker 2: at a very baseline level, is to spend five minutes
Speaker 2: a day reaching out to someone you care about. That
Speaker 2: could be a video call, it could be visiting them
Speaker 2: in person, it could be a phone call, whatever it is,
Speaker 2: five minutes. The second thing is to make sure you're
Speaker 2: doing one thing each day to help someone. Doesn't have
Speaker 2: to be someone you know. It could be somebody in
Speaker 2: your neighborhood, in your community, in your workplace, and it
Speaker 2: can be something small. And the third thing is to
Speaker 2: actually make sure that when you are people with people,
Speaker 2: that you are present right because a lot of times
Speaker 2: what happens, and I have been guilty of this on
Speaker 2: countless occasions, You're catching up with somebody and then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, your hand dips into your pocket, your
Speaker 2: phone comes out, you're refreshing your inbox. If you're me.
Speaker 2: You're checking the scores on ESPN or like you know,
Speaker 2: you're checking in news, and you don't have to do
Speaker 2: these things, but we it's just like a compulsion. We
Speaker 2: just do them, of course, right, and our attention frazzles.
Speaker 2: But I suspect you and I have both been in
Speaker 2: conversation with people in one case where we knew they were.
Speaker 4: Distracted, absolutely yeah, and in another case when they were
Speaker 4: fully focused on us, when they were looking into our eyes,
Speaker 4: really listening to what we were saying, responding to that,
Speaker 4: and that feels incredible. Yes, there's one last thing I'll say,
Speaker 4: which is that something we realize. I think a lot
Speaker 4: of us during the pandemic, especially in those first few
Speaker 4: months of the pandemic, when people weren't seeing each other
Speaker 4: very much, but we realized that it's not just the
Speaker 4: people we know whose presence gives us comfort, it's actually
Speaker 4: people we don't know. People would tell me how they
Speaker 4: didn't realize how much how nice it was actually just
Speaker 4: to be in a coffee shop for other people, Yes,
Speaker 4: to be walking down the street and see other people, yes.
Speaker 3: And see their facial expressions like not have mass on exactly,
Speaker 3: which includes so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say at a very basic level, if
Speaker 2: you're finding yourself, you know, unable to reach out and
Speaker 2: call someone for whatever reason, that even just being around
Speaker 2: other people, like leaving your home and going to the
Speaker 2: grocery store, going to a local event or talk you know,
Speaker 2: at your local library or at your community center, seeing
Speaker 2: a load to your neighbor, any of these things, like
Speaker 2: just being around other people, can be very powerful.
Speaker 3: I'm happy you brought that up because because of the
Speaker 3: moment we're in right now, where people are feeling just
Speaker 3: so utterly exhausted and depleted, and because socializing does take effort,
Speaker 3: it can feel very draining for a person who feels
Speaker 3: like they're lacking connection on a Friday night after a
Speaker 3: very challenging work week, and then they you know, every
Speaker 3: time they look at the news they see something horrific happening.
Speaker 3: To say, Okay, yes, I'm going to make an effort
Speaker 3: to reach out to a friend and have a you know,
Speaker 3: one on one dinner, something that just feels more taxing,
Speaker 3: especially for people who might lean a little bit more introverted.
Speaker 3: What I like about your advice is that in those moments, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe you don't do the dinner thing. But maybe you
Speaker 3: walk to your downtown area and you just kind of
Speaker 3: people watch, or maybe you go to a cafe, or
Speaker 3: maybe you sit down for dinner even by yourself, but
Speaker 3: you're in the presence of other people. And I do
Speaker 3: find that presence very uplifting. I remember during the pandemic,
Speaker 3: when again we had to be socially isolated, I would
Speaker 3: walk by myself to our downtown farmer's market and I
Speaker 3: would just sit and just watch people come and go,
Speaker 3: and there is sometimes street musicians and whatnot, and I
Speaker 3: would feel some uplift, Like you said, even though I
Speaker 3: wasn't creating any sort of long lasting, meaningful connection with
Speaker 3: other humans.
Speaker 1: It was just so comforting to be with others.
Speaker 2: It is absolutely it nourishes us at a very deep level.
Speaker 2: And it's It's also why when you're walking on the street,
Speaker 2: even if you just picked a couple of people and
Speaker 2: smiled at them as you're workingnize it. You don't have
Speaker 2: to say a word. Yeah, it is proven to make
Speaker 2: you and the other person feel better.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but what all when they don't smile back, Bud,
Speaker 3: Why are we not a little bit kinder towards each other,
Speaker 3: Like well, I'll get into an elevator and I'm like, hey,
Speaker 3: how's it going, And there's just really no response at all,
Speaker 3: And sometimes I just want to give up. And so
Speaker 3: what do I do when I don't get the high
Speaker 3: end response?
Speaker 1: And then I feel a little bit of that rejection.
Speaker 2: So that's a good question, and I know it's your
Speaker 2: topic because I felt the same thing, and I think
Speaker 2: that it for me. What I've tried to do is
Speaker 2: to understand the moment why people usually don't respond. It's
Speaker 2: not usually because they're rejecting you, per se. Right, Like
Speaker 2: if ten people came into the same thing, their response
Speaker 2: may be the same. But most people there their social
Speaker 2: muscle has become so weak over time that it's hard
Speaker 2: for them to activate it. You know right away. There
Speaker 2: are people are just donned that you said below.
Speaker 3: Absolutely it seems like I lit up a firework or
Speaker 3: something in front of their face. They really do. There's
Speaker 3: almost an element of fear and like true surprise. They
Speaker 3: almost jump a little bit. That's right, because it's so
Speaker 3: not the norm.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. So if you recognize that most people's
Speaker 2: lack of response is usually surprise or fear. Yeah, or
Speaker 2: like some unfamiliarity for me that I was making me
Speaker 2: feel better because actually, then it makes me realize, am
Speaker 2: my saying hello to them is actually helpful because it's
Speaker 2: over time and I help you more because it more
Speaker 2: like Look, I have had this experience also as somebody
Speaker 2: said hello, and I was so surprised I couldn't get
Speaker 2: out a hello before they actually exited the setting right
Speaker 2: or they were walking past me and they already passed,
Speaker 2: but I was like, oh, hello, yeah, they're gone, right,
Speaker 2: But it made me feel good. Number one that they
Speaker 2: said hello, and it made me more attentive about saying
Speaker 2: hello the next time, like somebody actually said hello to me.
Speaker 2: All this just to say that I find recognizing that
Speaker 2: like helps me feel remember that the reject it's not
Speaker 2: sort of like personal rejection director to me. And what
Speaker 2: I'm doing when I do that is not only helping
Speaker 2: myself feel good, but I'm putting just more social energy
Speaker 2: out into the world. And this is how norms change
Speaker 2: is when people start behaving differently in larger and larger numbers,
Speaker 2: and when that behavior becomes acceptable. And I think if
Speaker 2: we can make it more and more of a norm
Speaker 2: that we smile at people when we see them, and
Speaker 2: you could choose the elevator could be your work spot,
Speaker 2: you know, for this experiment, and you can just say, Okay,
Speaker 2: whenever I'm in an elevator, I'm going to smile at people.
Speaker 2: And that's just it. But that can make a really
Speaker 2: big difference again in how you feel.
Speaker 1: It's just hard in the moment.
Speaker 3: But then I also think maybe being a little bit
Speaker 3: more empathetic too, because what if I have actually just
Speaker 3: encountered someone on a really hard day that they're having
Speaker 3: and so yes, I didn't get anything in return, but
Speaker 3: maybe they got a good gift for me whishes to
Speaker 3: be smile of at.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so that is helpful. Can we talk about energy
Speaker 2: for a second, Yeah, because you just talked about the
Speaker 2: fact that a lot of people are feeling really drained
Speaker 2: right now, and then when you're drained, it's hard to
Speaker 2: summon the energy to be social correct. So I think
Speaker 2: this is a real phenomenon. So let's just talk for
Speaker 2: a moment about this energy drain thing, because I think
Speaker 2: about our emotional wellbeing almost like a fuel tank, right,
Speaker 2: and there are things that feed that tank that increase fuel,
Speaker 2: if you will. Social connection is one of them. Gratitude
Speaker 2: is another. But also sleep, you know, helps tremendously, and
Speaker 2: a lot of us don't get good quality or quantity
Speaker 2: of sleep because our devices are interrupting our sleep. We
Speaker 2: get up and we'll drink some water, and then we're
Speaker 2: checking our email, et cetera. But they are all of
Speaker 2: these things that can feed into, like our emotional wellbeing.
Speaker 2: But there are also things that drain our emotional tank, right,
Speaker 2: and those include negative people, negative news, and for many people,
Speaker 2: their experience of social media, which is often negative, right,
Speaker 2: not for everyone dimensions to it, but when your experience
Speaker 2: of social media is that you're primarily seeing people ranting
Speaker 2: about things, treating each other poorly, and negative news posted.
Speaker 2: These three things. So social media, the news, and negative
Speaker 2: people will drain you, right. And so I think if
Speaker 2: we want or.
Speaker 3: Other people's highlight reels, which can also drain you absolutely,
Speaker 3: because then you're thinking, oh my god, am I the
Speaker 3: only one suffering here? Why are they living the best
Speaker 3: life ever in Spain?
Speaker 1: And here I am.
Speaker 2: Exactly yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And that constant culture
Speaker 2: of comparison, which is dramatically accelerated online, Yes, I can
Speaker 2: drain us too. So I think as we think about
Speaker 2: how to improve our emotional fuel tank and fill it up,
Speaker 2: we have to plug the holes while we're also trying
Speaker 2: to fill the tank. And so like, for I was
Speaker 2: just telling in my own life what that's looked like.
Speaker 2: That's like number one, I'm just a lot more intentional
Speaker 2: about my interactions engagement with people. So if somebody is
Speaker 2: really negative, or if they're like constantly like complaining about the
Speaker 2: world and dragging me down, et cetera, just have increasingly
Speaker 2: chosen not to engage in those interactions, you know, and
Speaker 2: to try to step away. Now easier said than done.
Speaker 2: What if that person is a family member who you
Speaker 2: live with, exactly.
Speaker 3: You're a coworker that you have to work on a
Speaker 3: project with, right, what can you do in that case?
Speaker 3: Viig to tame their power over your mind and your
Speaker 3: well being?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So sometimes, look, if it's a case where you
Speaker 2: cannot reduce the amount of time and exposure that you
Speaker 2: have to the person, sometimes you need to actually have
Speaker 2: an honest conversation. And it doesn't have to be like, hey,
Speaker 2: you're making me feel horrible, stop it, right, although sometimes
Speaker 2: that you have to be that blunt, but sometimes it
Speaker 2: can just be something as simple as like, let's just
Speaker 2: say that they're bringing up politics all the time and
Speaker 2: it makes you feel just worse about the world and
Speaker 2: think about stuff that you don't want to think about.
Speaker 2: You just say them, hey, look, I love working with you,
Speaker 2: but I just really don't enjoy talking about politics. Could
Speaker 2: we just your clear politics? We just talk about other stuff.
Speaker 2: I'd love to talk about your family, about work, about
Speaker 2: your recreation, anything else, but I just don't like that
Speaker 2: about politics. And most people will respect that, you know,
Speaker 2: but it requires us to sometimes be a little bit direct.
Speaker 2: The other thing that I have done when it comes
Speaker 2: to news is I've largely like reduced my consumption of
Speaker 2: news by something like ninety five and ninety nine percent, right,
Speaker 2: So I don't watch the news on TV anymore. I
Speaker 2: cancel my TV subscription some years ago. I generally don't
Speaker 2: read most news stories. I'll sometimes see I'll see digests
Speaker 2: of headlines, so I have a sense of what's happening
Speaker 2: in the world and can dive deeper. I certainly read
Speaker 2: articles that trusted friends may send me, or others or
Speaker 2: people I work with, because I know that they're filtering
Speaker 2: it for the kind of content that will be useful
Speaker 2: and important to me, and you can't escape all of it,
Speaker 2: by the way, like you're going to see something, to
Speaker 2: be walking down an airport, you're going to see like new
Speaker 2: news on the TV screen, Like you're going to see stuff.
Speaker 2: And that's fine, but we can make choices to dramatically
Speaker 2: reduce our consumption of news. And look, I hate to
Speaker 2: say it, but the news is trended negative over to
Speaker 2: the last few decades. There are measurably more negative headlines.
Speaker 2: We know that fear and anxiety are very reliable ways
Speaker 2: to get people to pay attention, and the media industry
Speaker 2: knows that too.
Speaker 1: So they're praying on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you stoke fear and anxiety, people are
Speaker 2: more likely to watch to click and that generates revenue.
Speaker 2: And so the business model is largely, unfortunately steeped in
Speaker 2: stoking our fear and anxiety. So again, it's not that
Speaker 2: all news is bad, but it's that there's it's almost
Speaker 2: like if I were to give you a container of
Speaker 2: yogurt and I told you, look, this yogurt has protein
Speaker 2: in it. It's got some very vitamins and minerals in it.
Speaker 2: But by the way, it's spoiled. Actually, you'd be like, look,
Speaker 2: I know there's good stuff in there, but I don't
Speaker 2: know how to separate the good from the bad easily.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to have to just put it aside.
Speaker 2: And I find myself having to do that not only
Speaker 2: within news but also then finally with social media. But
Speaker 2: for me, and this is true for me, may I'll
Speaker 2: be true for everyone. It was like for every one
Speaker 2: good thing I was encountering, there were like twenty things
Speaker 2: that were dragging me down. Yeah, And I was like,
Speaker 2: this is like not a good do the next benefit
Speaker 2: kids say? So I was like, you know, I just
Speaker 2: this is not worth it. So I pull back on it,
Speaker 2: and I will tell you. I was like, wow, I
Speaker 2: normally feel better. I actually have more time because I
Speaker 2: was at we spend more time on social media than
Speaker 2: we think we do. Adolescents, by the way, I spend
Speaker 2: four point eight hours a day on social media alone,
Speaker 2: not screens, just social media. So then I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: I actually can read a bit because I wasn't reading much.
Speaker 2: I can be more present with family, all of these things.
Speaker 2: So I mentioned all this just to say that in
Speaker 2: our own way, many of us are feeling drained, and
Speaker 2: we not only need to think about how to fill
Speaker 2: our tank more with things like social connection, activities that
Speaker 2: bring us joy, with moments of gratitude and moments of peace,
Speaker 2: but we also need to plug these holes because there's
Speaker 2: a lot that's draining our energy right now. And I
Speaker 2: just worry that if everyone is drained all the time,
Speaker 2: how are we going to get together and do the
Speaker 2: things they need to be done in the world. But
Speaker 2: also how are we going to enjoy our lives, build friendship,
Speaker 2: be a part of community.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I understand the reduction in social media use almost being
Speaker 3: uncontroversial when it comes to such a high reduction in
Speaker 3: news consumption. How do you square that with this noble
Speaker 3: goal of being an educated, informed citizen of the world
Speaker 3: who stays on top of stuff. Because I can see
Speaker 3: that being that filling some people with discomfort, like, Oh,
Speaker 3: if I back away from the news, does that mean
Speaker 3: that I've stopped caring about other people? Does that mean
Speaker 3: that I'm burying my head in the sand doing an
Speaker 3: ostrich situation when the world's on fire? Will that make
Speaker 3: me feel less inclined to be socially active, to engage
Speaker 3: in public service like help me and other people square that.
Speaker 2: So this is and this is what we talk about
Speaker 2: in my family all the time because my wife, Alice
Speaker 2: is she's an extraordinary advocate and somebody who's just so
Speaker 2: her DNA is to help people and to respond when
Speaker 2: there's a need. And so she's also she and I
Speaker 2: both have been thinking about how do we help be
Speaker 2: a positive force in the world where at a time
Speaker 2: where a lot of difficult and painful things are happening.
Speaker 2: So I don't think that reducing news consumption has to
Speaker 2: be consistent with ignoring what's happening in the world or
Speaker 2: being uneducated. Okay, I think instead what is happening right
Speaker 2: now is a pendulum swung so far in one end
Speaker 2: that we're not reading a news story about a situation.
Speaker 2: We're reading it ten times, written by ten ten different ways,
Speaker 2: by ten different outlets. And that has its own toll,
Speaker 2: because if you're reading ten negative articles instead of one
Speaker 2: concise article, that's your time, that's also your energy that
Speaker 2: you're expending. Most of us are not at all in
Speaker 2: danger of being uninformed about what major events that are
Speaker 2: happening in the world. We could reduce our news consumption
Speaker 2: by eighty ninety percent and still largely get the big
Speaker 2: events that are happening. But finally, I'll just say, in
Speaker 2: terms of being a part of positive change, being an
Speaker 2: advocate fighting for people who might be hurting right now,
Speaker 2: we need to do that, There's no question, And I
Speaker 2: would actually say we are better poised to do that
Speaker 2: when we have more energy in our tank and more
Speaker 2: time on our hands, and a lot of our time
Speaker 2: and energy is being scrolled away and siphoned away by
Speaker 2: the negative news that we are consuming, the time we're
Speaker 2: spending doing that, and the time we're spending on social media.
Speaker 2: I would love to see people dramatically reduce their consumption
Speaker 2: of news and social media and dramatically increase their engagement
Speaker 2: in their real world, whether it's meeting with their legislators
Speaker 2: about issues of matter, whether it's protesting, whether it's going
Speaker 2: to community meetings and talking about how is a community
Speaker 2: we can get together and help people who are struggling
Speaker 2: and suffering them That real world advocacy matters, But it's
Speaker 2: often at odds.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't do that when your tank is empty.
Speaker 3: It's interesting, Yeah, I think when we have a really visceral,
Speaker 3: emotional negative reaction to a news article, and we find
Speaker 3: ourselves spiraling in our bedrooms. It does give us a
Speaker 3: false sense of accomplishment or effort of some kind, like
Speaker 3: we did something, but actually that's something hasn't translated into
Speaker 3: any meaningful external action. And so if we were to
Speaker 3: channel our efforts that way, it just might be better
Speaker 3: for the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also just to this point about connection and
Speaker 2: how we build more of it, right, it's no secret
Speaker 2: that the world is really polarized right now. It's not
Speaker 2: just the United States. Many countries are experiencing this. It's
Speaker 2: no secret that that's led to a lot of strife
Speaker 2: and anger and times even violence. Right, many people used
Speaker 2: to encounter when I travel, As a certain general would
Speaker 2: say to me, why is it that we seem to
Speaker 2: treat each other so poorly these days? Why are we
Speaker 2: does it seem like everyone everything is so much meaner
Speaker 2: now than.
Speaker 4: It used to be.
Speaker 2: And the thing is we it's easier to be mean
Speaker 2: and unkind to people and we don't know them. So
Speaker 2: the question is how do we enable people to know
Speaker 2: each other as stories? Better? Experience is better? That doesn't
Speaker 2: happen easily online, right, Like, how many people do you
Speaker 2: know whose views were profoundly changed because of a comment
Speaker 2: that they read on social media or post, right, right,
Speaker 2: More often that yeah, that happens actually when people come
Speaker 2: to know one another in person.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So it's like if I'm going to community meetings, you know,
Speaker 2: once a month, and I'm realizing, yeah, this person is
Speaker 2: sitting next to me, they they are completely different from me,
Speaker 2: Like they have kids, I don't. They're young, I'm old,
Speaker 2: they're working, I'm retired. Like what do I have in
Speaker 2: common with them? But then we're part of the same community,
Speaker 2: we're each other. If we start talking and realizing actually
Speaker 2: we're both concerned about the water quality in our community,
Speaker 2: we're both really worried about something else that's impacting our community,
Speaker 2: then hey, I got something in common with this person.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm listening to their comments, I'm learning a little
Speaker 2: bit about their family, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: I've got a bridge that's been built. I've a foundation
Speaker 2: on which I can then build further. But that's what
Speaker 2: happens in person, and that's why I think making sure
Speaker 2: that we are doing the things we need to fill
Speaker 2: our tank, avoiding the things to drain our tank, and
Speaker 2: creating opportunities for people to come together and gather, whether
Speaker 2: it's for entertainment and joy, whether it's for understanding what
Speaker 2: we can do to support each other. These are vital.
Speaker 2: Allows you to tell an example, I just happened two
Speaker 2: days ago. Yeah, I did this event a couple of
Speaker 2: days ago in Marine County in California, just north of
Speaker 2: San Francisco, and it was for a community called the
Speaker 2: Marine Villages, and the villages as part of a broader
Speaker 2: villages community as Boston Villages, San Francisco Villages, et cetera.
Speaker 2: These are communities that came together to support seniors, realizing
Speaker 2: that a lot of them needed some help and were
Speaker 2: struggling with loneliness and isolation. And what's very interesting is
Speaker 2: they just have these events where people can come together
Speaker 2: and often will learn about topics. So I was a
Speaker 2: speaker at one of these events. Every month they have
Speaker 2: somebody come and speak, and people just come together and
Speaker 2: they eat and they listen, they talk, and they learn.
Speaker 2: But increasingly they also help, right, So they're thinking about
Speaker 2: how they can be of service, like in the community,
Speaker 2: who can they help within the community who might be struggling.
Speaker 2: One woman I met there said to me, you know,
Speaker 2: I've been really concerned. And she was not somebody who's
Speaker 2: running the organization. She was just she was a member,
Speaker 2: regular member of the organization. She said, you know, I've
Speaker 2: been really concerned that suicide rates are so high on holidays.
Speaker 2: She said, I've my feeling is that a lot of
Speaker 2: people probably feel the acute pain of loneliness on holidays
Speaker 2: when everyone's out with their families and they're by themselves.
Speaker 2: She said, you know what I did is a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago, I started hosting a party at my
Speaker 2: house on all the major holidays, and I just post
Speaker 2: signs so that everyone knows this is happening. They feel
Speaker 2: like if they don't have a place they can go,
Speaker 2: they can just come. She didn't say this to me
Speaker 2: with any bravado or hey look at what I did.
Speaker 2: She just happened to mention this. She was in a line,
Speaker 2: you know that people who were you know who wanted
Speaker 2: to talk for a minute. She just mentioned this, And
Speaker 2: this is like, she's one person who's doing a wonderful
Speaker 2: thing and making a big difference. But this is like
Speaker 2: the power of what can happen when we create opportunities
Speaker 2: for people to come together, and we never know when
Speaker 2: one of those small acts of outreach and kindness can
Speaker 2: read somebody at a critical moment of need, you know,
Speaker 2: when they are feeling really down on their life. Like
Speaker 2: when I talk to the people who've considered taking their
Speaker 2: own life, who have considered suicide and then turned back,
Speaker 2: I all often ask them like, what made you turn back?
Speaker 2: What made you choose life? And so often it's a small,
Speaker 2: seemingly innocuous thing that somebody said to them. It was
Speaker 2: usually a small moment of kindness, a small moment where
Speaker 2: they felt seen, I felt like they mattered, and that
Speaker 2: gave them what they needed to hold on and to
Speaker 2: stay with us. And so we can never underestimate that
Speaker 2: power of reaching out to people, of showing up, and
Speaker 2: of being in person.
Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 3: of plans. You wrote the vague in your parting prescription
Speaker 3: to Americans a few weeks before you left the office
Speaker 3: of Surgeon General that love is at the center of community.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2: I think we have somehow come to see love as
Speaker 2: less broad and powerful than it actually is. Look, my
Speaker 2: belief for some time has been that there are two
Speaker 2: primary forces that shape the decisions we make in the
Speaker 2: actions we take in the world, and those are love
Speaker 2: and fear right, and they each manifest in their own way.
Speaker 2: Fear can manifest as insecurity, as jealousy, as rage. Love
Speaker 2: can manifest as compassion, as generosity, as courage, as hope,
Speaker 2: as forgiveness, as grace. And the question that I have
Speaker 2: been asking myself increasing over the years when I'm making
Speaker 2: big and small decisions, is what is guiding me in
Speaker 2: this moment? Is it love or is it fear? And
Speaker 2: I think if we really want to help society heal,
Speaker 2: we need to have a conversation about love, about not
Speaker 2: only how to express it in our lives, but how
Speaker 2: to cultivate it in our children's lives, how to make
Speaker 2: it a norm in society that governs how we interact
Speaker 2: with each other, how we serve in government, how we
Speaker 2: serve in organizations that we may lead. Right now, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of fear in the world, and we need
Speaker 2: more love. When I put together that Parting Prescription to America,
Speaker 2: which was the last publication that I issued a search
Speaker 2: in general, what was on my mind was this question
Speaker 2: that had been bothering me for years, which was Why
Speaker 2: are so many of the people that I meet all
Speaker 2: across America and increasing across the world, why are they
Speaker 2: so unhappy? Why do they feel that sense of emptiness
Speaker 2: that so many people describe. And it bothered me because
Speaker 2: so many people would say, I guess this is just
Speaker 2: the way life. I guess it's like everyone's feeling this way.
Speaker 2: It's just that's just life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a surrender, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And I refuse to believe that because I don't think
Speaker 2: that we are consigned to live a life of emptiness. Yeah,
Speaker 2: where we're just unhappy because that life is hard and
Speaker 2: as a result unhappy. Life can be hard, and life
Speaker 2: often is hard, but that doesn't mean that it has
Speaker 2: to be unfulfilling. When I talk to young people, I
Speaker 2: got an interesting tidbit that helped me understand this more deeply,
Speaker 2: which is I would ask them the one consistent question
Speaker 2: high school college students, how do you define success? And
Speaker 2: was really asking is how is society defining success for you?
Speaker 2: And they would say some version of money, power, and fame.
Speaker 2: Now they didn't always say they agreed.
Speaker 1: With that, but that's what they'd been fed.
Speaker 2: That's what they didn't fed, and that's what they had
Speaker 2: to follow, and even with those who disagreed with that
Speaker 2: are said, I'm not sure it's going to make me happy.
Speaker 2: They didn't want to risk being left behind, so they
Speaker 2: didn't step off the treadmill. And their parents were in
Speaker 2: the same boat. No parent wants to put their kids
Speaker 2: at a disadvantage or makes them or you know, lead
Speaker 2: them away from success in any way. And this is
Speaker 2: a form that was being given. So parents are also
Speaker 2: on the band where I can trying to help their kids,
Speaker 2: you know, pursue. Those are those elements of success. But
Speaker 2: what really matters for our fulfillment, it turns out, based
Speaker 2: on science, our stories, our history, and our scripture scriptures
Speaker 2: across faiths, is relationships, purpose, and service. Those are the
Speaker 2: three elements that drive fulfillment. That is a trya of fulfillment.
Speaker 2: But relationships, purpose, and service have to be anchored in
Speaker 2: a core virtue, and that virtue is love. And that
Speaker 2: matters because if you pursue relationships out of fear, right,
Speaker 2: if you're doing service in your community because you're fearful,
Speaker 2: if you don't, you won't be able to put it
Speaker 2: on your resume and get into ca You get a
Speaker 2: drop like that is problematic, and it doesn't generate the
Speaker 2: kind of fulfillment that comes from knowing people, from helping people,
Speaker 2: and from finding purpose and lifting each other up. We
Speaker 2: all want to be a part of something bigger than ourselves.
Speaker 2: That's part of human nature. It's why the eclipse was
Speaker 2: such an incredible moment for so many people across the world.
Speaker 2: You know, in twenty twenty four, we felt like we
Speaker 2: were part of something bigger. It's why astronauts who you
Speaker 2: may I've talked to over the years will describe looking
Speaker 2: at the Earth from their spaceship feeling so small, yet
Speaker 2: feeling so deeply connected in that moment because they're a
Speaker 2: part of something bigger.
Speaker 3: You don't see the state lines and the country lines from.
Speaker 2: It all feels like we're one. And that's why a
Speaker 2: world and a culture that tells us that successful and
Speaker 2: fulfillment are to be found in focusing more and more
Speaker 2: on just ourselves, on the wealth we can aggregate, the
Speaker 2: thing we can accrue, and the power that we can amass.
Speaker 2: That is a set of messages that increasingly take us
Speaker 2: away from the fulfillment we need. And that's why what
Speaker 2: we have to do in this moment is to actually
Speaker 2: rebuild a culture that's rooted in this trya of fulfillment
Speaker 2: that's anchored in that core virtue of love. And if
Speaker 2: we do that, then I feel confident that we and
Speaker 2: our children can live more fulfilling lives and we will
Speaker 2: help future generations to.
Speaker 4: Do the same.
Speaker 3: One thing that really resonated with me from this conversation
Speaker 3: is that when it comes to building community and connection,
Speaker 3: we can take out some of the intimidation factor by
Speaker 3: starting really small, right, doing small things to nurture this
Speaker 3: aspect of our lives, either in ourselves or in the
Speaker 3: children that we're raising, or the communities that we live in.
Speaker 3: And so one story I heard about you that I
Speaker 3: absolutely loved that I think will liberate parents everywhere is
Speaker 3: you have stopped making it a requirement that your house
Speaker 3: is clean in order for you to invite people over
Speaker 3: to hang out with you. Tell me more about that,
Speaker 3: because I think if the Search and General can commit
Speaker 3: former Search and General can commit to that, I think
Speaker 3: all of us in our lives can say, Okay, maybe
Speaker 3: we just get rid of that one barrier.
Speaker 2: I think when it comes to our home, we realized
Speaker 2: that Alice and I that we were in this school
Speaker 2: community by default because our kids were in school with
Speaker 2: other kids and they all had parents, but we weren't
Speaker 2: really part of the community because weren't really seeing each other.
Speaker 2: We weren't getting to know each other. We also realized
Speaker 2: that in with our friends circle, but everyone was leading
Speaker 2: busy lives and it's just like everyone is so overscheduled
Speaker 2: and it was like hard to get together. And so
Speaker 2: we finally just thought to ourselves, like, what are the
Speaker 2: barriers that are holding us back from actually having people
Speaker 2: because we love to have people over as opposed to
Speaker 2: going out, because it just feels like it was actually
Speaker 2: started very practical. It was because our kids, like, we're
Speaker 2: not used to babysitters, and we always then had to
Speaker 2: be home by like eight or eight thirty to put
Speaker 2: them to bed. And we're like, well, how can we
Speaker 2: go out to a restaurant and then run back. But
Speaker 2: if we can meet at home, then our kids can
Speaker 2: just drift off to sleep, we can still hang out
Speaker 2: here with people, they can play in the living room,
Speaker 2: they won't get bored in the restaurant. So that's how
Speaker 2: this started, and then we just realized it's just nice
Speaker 2: to be in a house, right but then the problem
Speaker 2: was our house was chaos. It's like messy. It was like,
Speaker 2: you know, it was small, and like we you know,
Speaker 2: my wife Alice can cook, and I'm not like a
Speaker 2: great cook, and so we're like, well if we can't
Speaker 2: make fancy food like for people.
Speaker 4: Finally, at one.
Speaker 2: Point, out of desperation, just shove that all aside and
Speaker 2: we just like message a friendly We said, look, our
Speaker 2: house is chaotic, but if you have time, and this
Speaker 2: is last minute, if you want to just come over
Speaker 2: this evening and just eat whatever we're feeding a kid,
Speaker 2: then that'd be great.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: And not only did they come over, but they said
Speaker 2: thank you for calling, because now we feel like we
Speaker 2: can have people over because our house is chaotic too,
Speaker 2: and we don't always know what to make. And I
Speaker 2: also realized by the way an interesting things overscheduled as
Speaker 2: people are. It turns out a lot of people can
Speaker 2: do last minute stuff. Like if you call them like hey,
Speaker 2: you want to just come over tonight or tomorrow night
Speaker 2: or whatever, they can do it. But it's like when
Speaker 2: we try to schedule an advance sometimes it's like I
Speaker 2: don't know, I've got this, we got that, You're right,
Speaker 2: so I don't know that we've been trying to be
Speaker 2: more spontaneous like that. We've been trying to be clear
Speaker 2: that what really matters is having time with people we love.
Speaker 2: And when we think about the dinners and lunches we've
Speaker 2: had with people we loved and how wonderful that was,
Speaker 2: you know, we don't remember how clean their house was,
Speaker 2: we don't remember exactly what they made. We just remember
Speaker 2: that we had a wonderful time reconnecting with these friends.
Speaker 2: So we're trying to get back to the heart of
Speaker 2: what really matters.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3: What other kinds of barriers do witness in the people
Speaker 3: that you've talked to, either on the listening tour just
Speaker 3: in your personal life that prevent us from taking these
Speaker 3: small steps to connect with other people.
Speaker 2: So there was a whole fun sort of publication that
Speaker 2: I issued in twenty twenty four called Recipes for Connection.
Speaker 2: And we did this because a lot of people were
Speaker 2: telling us they want to have folks over for meals,
Speaker 2: but they're scared too. Yeah, So we developed this little
Speaker 2: the Recipes for Connection book, not to give people like
Speaker 2: recipes for how to make souflet or how to make
Speaker 2: you know, like lasagna, but more to give them recipes
Speaker 2: for different ways to gather people, because one of the
Speaker 2: examples concerns people have is like I don't know how
Speaker 2: to cook. Yeah, right, so how can I have people over?
Speaker 2: Or my house is too small, right? Or my friends
Speaker 2: at fancy houses mine is not. They look down on me,
Speaker 2: like there's all kinds of concerns. So one of the
Speaker 2: ideas we had is something called a childhood Favorites pot luck,
Speaker 2: which is that ever you just ask a group of
Speaker 2: friends to come over and you say, everybody, just bring
Speaker 2: a dish that you love when you're a kid. And
Speaker 2: I actually ended up doing this myself with a group
Speaker 2: of chefs down in DC, and everyone brought a childhood
Speaker 2: favorite over. I brought Rastamala, which is an Indian suite
Speaker 2: that you're familiar with that my mom made.
Speaker 1: I would have brought Kraft mac and cheese. Such an indulgence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we got to not only taste these dishes,
Speaker 2: but here people's stories about their childhood and that was beautiful.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We also have the idea of a leftover's party, right
Speaker 2: where people could just you just invite everyone to just
Speaker 2: bring great whatever leftovers they have in their fridge. Yes,
Speaker 2: and then everyone is set together, so it just takes
Speaker 2: their pressure off people who feel like I can't cook.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's also okay.
Speaker 3: I mean to your point about the barrier for us,
Speaker 3: it's I've lost all my cooking skills. I used to
Speaker 3: know how to cook really good South Indian food, and
Speaker 3: I lost that skill when I think actually when I
Speaker 3: joined the White House, because there's just no time to cook,
Speaker 3: and so it's no longer something I can do well.
Speaker 3: And so getting over that hump of it's actually okay
Speaker 3: to get takeout when you have friends over. Yes, like, yes,
Speaker 3: you can show your warmth and your love through other vehicles.
Speaker 3: But I think for a while I was a little
Speaker 3: bit self conscious, Oh are they going to think I
Speaker 3: didn't put in the effort and time to actually cook
Speaker 3: a proper meal for them. But like you said, people
Speaker 3: just care so much less than you think. They just
Speaker 3: want to have good conversation. Laughs with you.
Speaker 2: That's right, and we do this all the time. We'll
Speaker 2: just get takeout and have friends over because sometimes if
Speaker 2: we're running, like we just don't have time to cook.
Speaker 2: The other thing is like, if you look at the
Speaker 2: dishes that we use in the plates, they're all mismatched,
Speaker 2: the cracks in them. There's like all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 2: And initially I was like, oh, do we need like
Speaker 2: better stuff, you know, because like we're supposed to be
Speaker 2: grown ups here and like should we have better forks
Speaker 2: than I. But again, nobody cares, like you care more
Speaker 2: than your guests care. Yeah, and if your guests who
Speaker 2: really care about them, then you should think about whether
Speaker 2: you're inviting the right people over. Yes, frankly yes. But
Speaker 2: the people your friends, your family, they're just not going
Speaker 2: to care. I mean, we used to have friends over,
Speaker 2: you know, who we worked with in the administration, and
Speaker 2: you know, some of these folks who are cabinet secretaries
Speaker 2: or they're high ups and whatever like organization or this
Speaker 2: or that. But you come over and they're just like
Speaker 2: anybody else. You're human, because at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: we all want the same thing, which is to spend
Speaker 2: time with people we care about, and to do so
Speaker 2: with ease, now with stress, you know, not feel like
Speaker 2: we have to live up to something that we're not
Speaker 2: or be somebody that we're not. We just want to
Speaker 2: be ourselves with people we care about.
Speaker 3: What is something that gives you a sense of hope
Speaker 3: and a feeling of connection.
Speaker 1: Right now, that's maybe surprised you that.
Speaker 2: I have found that interestingly, going to the gym has
Speaker 2: actually given me this funny sort of community that I
Speaker 2: didn't expect. Right, So, I've been spending a few weeks
Speaker 2: in California. You're visiting my in laws. But I kept
Speaker 2: an East Coast schedule, so I was like getting up
Speaker 2: early doing meetings, et cetera. But that meant that I'm
Speaker 2: up at like four thirty in the morning and everyone
Speaker 2: else is asleep. So I was like, hmm, it's a
Speaker 2: good time to go to the gym. So I started
Speaker 2: going to the gym with the five thirty crew. And
Speaker 2: there is a crew that goes to the gym at
Speaker 2: five thirty, and it was usually the same people, and
Speaker 2: we were just there every day. We see each other
Speaker 2: start smiling at each other, and I just felt like, uh,
Speaker 2: a sense of familiarity and community. And it was a small,
Speaker 2: subtle thing, but it was unexpected. The other thing that
Speaker 2: happened at this gym is a year prior when I
Speaker 2: had been there, I was just in the area basketball area,
Speaker 2: shooting baskets, and they started setting up for pickleball, and
Speaker 2: I had never played a pickleball, but I sat there
Speaker 2: and watched as people were playing, and I felt that
Speaker 2: same sense that I did in elementary school of knowing
Speaker 2: that I liked sports, but feeling hesitant to ask if
Speaker 2: I could join. It was like I reverted like being
Speaker 2: a child all of a sudden. And this one woman
Speaker 2: in the community saw me like kind of looking longingly
Speaker 2: at the at the folks playing and said, do you
Speaker 2: want to join? I said, I never played pickleball before,
Speaker 2: and she said, well, I can teach you. You know,
Speaker 2: everyone here is some sort of a beginner, and she
Speaker 2: gave me some pointers and some tip and I started
Speaker 2: playing with them, and I came home so happy that day.
Speaker 2: It was half an hour that I played with them,
Speaker 2: but I felt like so cared for. I felt like
Speaker 2: I had so much fun. It was just like real
Speaker 2: sense of joy. And to bring it full circle, this year,
Speaker 2: I happened to be again shooting baskets and they were
Speaker 2: setting up for pickleball unexpectedly, and I looked around and
Speaker 2: learning from us, and I was like, I should ask
Speaker 2: if I could play. And it turns out the same
Speaker 2: woman who taught me to play a year ago was
Speaker 2: there and she said, ah, you came back, and I said,
Speaker 2: thank you for opening up this door from me right.
Speaker 2: And so in these beautiful ways, sometimes we find connection
Speaker 2: and unexpected places. Sometimes somebody is willing to extend a
Speaker 2: hand and teach us. Sometimes it's just a presence of
Speaker 2: other people, even if we don't exchange words. And those
Speaker 2: have just been just beautiful, unexpected sources of community and
Speaker 2: joy in my life.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for they This was such a pleasure.
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad we did this. And I'll just say,
Speaker 2: you know as we close that I just have so
Speaker 2: much admiration for you and so much warmth that I
Speaker 2: feel for you, and I so value our friendship. And
Speaker 2: I think at a timeline, there's been so many people
Speaker 2: are feeling drained and are feeling bereft of hope, you know,
Speaker 2: as they look at all that's been happening in the
Speaker 2: world for years now, growing polarization, over time, more and
Speaker 2: more challenges, it's easy to turn to despair and to
Speaker 2: feel like to hunker down and just say, you know what,
Speaker 2: just got to look out for me, Like this is
Speaker 2: just too much everything that's happening in the world, and
Speaker 2: for people who are listening or a film that I
Speaker 2: get it, I understand it, and you're not a bad
Speaker 2: person if you feel that way. But I do think
Speaker 2: that the opportunity we have in the middle of this
Speaker 2: despair is actually to recognize that the most powerful thing
Speaker 2: we need to rebuild a foundation of well being in
Speaker 2: our society our relationships with each other. And that can
Speaker 2: start small. It can start with the small acts of
Speaker 2: kindness and outreach that we do. It can start by
Speaker 2: us showing up in other people's lives in small ways,
Speaker 2: and if we understand them, then we realize that we
Speaker 2: have more agency than we think. And it turns out
Speaker 2: that the foundation for good policy, good programs, good investment,
Speaker 2: good culture comes from relationships. It comes from a community
Speaker 2: where people truly feel like they do know each other,
Speaker 2: where they help each other, and where they find purpose
Speaker 2: and lifting each other up. And so that's what gives
Speaker 2: me hope. This is the broader revolution that I think
Speaker 2: we can build a revolution to build community, to build connection.
Speaker 2: We can build a people centered life today. And if
Speaker 2: more of us do that, we will build community and
Speaker 2: we will build a force that we need to really
Speaker 2: help us heal.
Speaker 3: Hey, thanks, so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 3: please follow a slight change of plans wherever you listen
Speaker 3: to podcasts, or share this episode with someone you know
Speaker 3: in your life who might be struggling with loneliness. By
Speaker 3: the way, we're trying something new on the show. We're
Speaker 3: now releasing full video versions of some of our episodes,
Speaker 3: including this one. You can watch my conversation with Vivek
Speaker 3: at pushkin dot fm slash slight Change. That's Pushkin dot
Speaker 3: fm slash slight Change. I'd love to know what you
Speaker 3: think of the video, and if you'd like to see
Speaker 3: more of them. You can reach me on Instagram at
Speaker 3: doctor Maya Schunker or send an email to slight Change
Speaker 3: at pushkin dot fm. Join me next time when I
Speaker 3: have the total honor of talking with Nobel Peace Prize
Speaker 3: winner Malala Yusufsai. At the age of fifteen, she was
Speaker 3: shot in the head by the Thaliban after speaking out
Speaker 3: publicly for girls' education.
Speaker 5: I was in Coma when I was seeing the world
Speaker 5: define me. I was somehow now the bravest girl and
Speaker 5: the most courageous gul and at fifteen, like, what do
Speaker 5: you know about being brave and being courageous and what
Speaker 5: do you know about being an activist?
Speaker 3: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. I'll
Speaker 3: see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,
Speaker 3: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change
Speaker 3: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Speaker 3: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Brittany Cronin and Megan Lubin, and
Speaker 3: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
Speaker 3: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Speaker 3: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 3: so big thanks to everyone there. Of course a very
Speaker 3: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight
Speaker 3: Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker.
Speaker 1: See you next week.