Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. The last few years have seen
Speaker 1: drastic changes in the rapidly evolving landscape of cable and
Speaker 1: streaming television. You know the times have changed when even
Speaker 1: the news is making news. At CNN, there were reports
Speaker 1: of chaos and uncertainty, the sudden resignation of President Jeff Zucker,
Speaker 1: followed by the installation of his successor, Chris Licked, and
Speaker 1: drastic changes to their lineup. One of the biggest changes
Speaker 1: moving my guest Today. CNN Tonight anchored Don Lemon to
Speaker 1: Mornings after a decade in prime time. Shortly after, Lemon
Speaker 1: made some controversial comments on air and was unceremoniously fired
Speaker 1: from the network seventeen years into his tenure. Now, he
Speaker 1: has released a book, I Once Was Lost My Search
Speaker 1: for God in America, a day deeply personal journey of
Speaker 1: his faith through difficult times that also takes a hard
Speaker 1: look at politics and religion in America today. The Emmy
Speaker 1: winning journalist launched a new series earlier this year, The
Speaker 1: Don Lemon Show, on streaming podcast platforms and on YouTube.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know how he made the decision of
Speaker 1: where to launch his new show.
Speaker 2: YouTube is the number one network in the world. It
Speaker 2: has surpassed Netflix. It's because everyone has that computer in
Speaker 2: their pocket, and that is the new television. It's the
Speaker 2: same thing you watch it, but it's just a different
Speaker 2: form of distribution. So if I can go there, create
Speaker 2: content and pretty much do exactly what I want to do,
Speaker 2: why not?
Speaker 1: And that's why I chose YouTube.
Speaker 2: Also, Alec, I have some contractual obligations. As you know,
Speaker 2: you're in the business, you have non competes and all
Speaker 2: of that. So I had to find a place where
Speaker 2: I could go and do what I do and create
Speaker 2: my cable non network that doesn't compete with my contract
Speaker 2: at the old place.
Speaker 1: Now I want to touch on that, I'm going to
Speaker 1: We've got two things here, obviously, career and faith. The
Speaker 1: book is called I Once Was Lost, and I went
Speaker 1: to your book signing event where you were interviewed by Zucker,
Speaker 1: who was very funny. By the way, I was surprised.
Speaker 1: He's very good. So you go to YouTube overcly there's
Speaker 1: a non compete aspect in there, but to describe your
Speaker 1: career in television and when that ended, what ended? You
Speaker 1: started at CNN. What year two thousand and six and
Speaker 1: you started doing what I started.
Speaker 2: As let's see, Oh wow, it's been so long ago.
Speaker 2: Two thousand and six. I was the afternoon anchor on
Speaker 2: CNN Newsroom from one to four in the afternoon, And
Speaker 2: you did that for how long? I did that for
Speaker 2: about eight years or so?
Speaker 1: Eight years?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thirteen to fourteen. I moved on.
Speaker 1: I moved to New York.
Speaker 2: I was in Atlanta, and you move on to do
Speaker 2: what show? I moved on to do. I did weekend
Speaker 2: evenings for a while to sort of create, you know,
Speaker 2: get my own voice, develop my own voice. And then
Speaker 2: Jeff Souker took over and said, hey, you're pretty talented.
Speaker 2: Who was in charge of before Zucker Jim Walton was
Speaker 2: ahead of the network here, and Zuker took over, and
Speaker 2: he wanted you want in the evening? He put you
Speaker 2: on in the evening. Yes, I went to Zucker because
Speaker 2: I did. I hated Atlanta and I'm a New Yorker
Speaker 2: even though I grew up in Louisiana, I'm a New
Speaker 2: Yorker by heart. And I said, hey, listen, it's been
Speaker 2: great working here. I'm out of here, I said, I
Speaker 2: can't live in Atlanta anymore. So thanks, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: glad you just took over the network. Blah blah blah
Speaker 2: blah he said, he said, yeah, he said, you don't
Speaker 2: have to You're moving to New York.
Speaker 1: And that was it. And you did the evening on
Speaker 1: the weekends, and then you did your evening show starting
Speaker 1: when how long was he so weekends?
Speaker 2: I did the evenings on the weekends for a while.
Speaker 2: I think I did the evenings for you know, five years.
Speaker 2: Look the afternoon, I'm sort of, you know, sort of
Speaker 2: mixing that in the evening because I started the evening
Speaker 2: in Atlanta and then I continue the evening in New York.
Speaker 2: And Jeff would sort of mentor me, you know, because
Speaker 2: he's he watched twenty four hours a day, so breaking
Speaker 2: news tell you. He would say, breaking news, I need
Speaker 2: you to stay on for another hour. We're going to
Speaker 2: blow out the medical ship and need you to stay
Speaker 2: on and do this, repeat the breaking news.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Or he didn't coach about style, No, no, not at all,
Speaker 2: because he liked my style.
Speaker 1: He liked me being me.
Speaker 2: He's he would if anything, he would say, lean into it,
Speaker 2: so he would say, you know, recap, tell the audience
Speaker 2: you know it's breaking news, what it is. He wouldn't
Speaker 2: tell me what to say. He would say a good
Speaker 2: question might be something like this, and I wouldn't ask it,
Speaker 2: you know, exactly as he would say if I wanted
Speaker 2: to do it. But he wouldn't get upset if I
Speaker 2: didn't do it.
Speaker 1: So you could do audibles like quarterbacks.
Speaker 2: Yes, I could. And then he started. I had me
Speaker 2: filling in on every single show. I'd fill in the afternoon,
Speaker 2: I'd fill in the morning, I would do my evening show,
Speaker 2: and he would send me on big stories and he
Speaker 2: was he really developed me.
Speaker 1: And you started doing your show, the big show, the
Speaker 1: evening show.
Speaker 2: Win I started doing my show. Aaron Burnett went out
Speaker 2: on maternity leave and Jeff said, I want you to
Speaker 2: take over for her from maternity leave. So her entire
Speaker 2: couple months she was off, I filled in seven o'clock show.
Speaker 2: It was me and I did my weekend show. So
Speaker 2: I was working seven days a week and I didn't
Speaker 2: mind it.
Speaker 1: I loved it. Actually, you're doing the mornings, and you're
Speaker 1: doing and morning shows, which have become so bizarre to me,
Speaker 1: I know, I said to people, and I love all
Speaker 1: these people. I mean, I love Katie Cork. But the
Speaker 1: last time I watched the Today Show was when Katie
Speaker 1: Cork was on with lour and they did a I
Speaker 1: guess maybe it was for Halloween. They all dressed up
Speaker 1: and clothing and they sang diamonds are a Girl's best
Speaker 1: friend as she's walking down a staircase, a glittering staircase
Speaker 1: or whatever, and I thought, I'm done. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I want the news, maybe tell some jokes or whatever.
Speaker 1: But they turned it into an entertainment show. But mornings
Speaker 1: it's obviously a different ball game. Even weekends, maybe you're
Speaker 1: a different ballgame. So what adjustments do you have to
Speaker 1: make in your style to be on in the evening?
Speaker 2: Oh well, I'm an evening guy. The only reason I
Speaker 2: did the mornings is because and you told me, you know,
Speaker 2: when I did the she said, no one wants to
Speaker 2: see you in the morning, And you were right. I'm
Speaker 2: not a morning person. I'm not very good in the morning.
Speaker 2: I'm not good on coffee. Caffeine makes me jittery. I
Speaker 2: don't know what I'm saying or doing. So I did
Speaker 2: it because my company asked me to do it, and
Speaker 2: I was being a team player, but it was not
Speaker 2: a good fit for me. The adjustment is is that
Speaker 2: you're constantly sleeping. You have to get up. I'm a
Speaker 2: night oul. I don't him to go to bed until
Speaker 2: two or three in the morning, and I'm up at
Speaker 2: you know, maybe ten right before I would you know,
Speaker 2: i'd have to wake up when I mean, when I
Speaker 2: was doing the mornings, I have to wake up at
Speaker 2: four in the morning, right, I know it'll be It
Speaker 2: was really, really tough. So that's really the adjustment. I'm
Speaker 2: a cool cat at night. I like it, and I
Speaker 2: like that that late time slot. Working at night, I
Speaker 2: do too, and I get my best idea yea, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I do movies.
Speaker 1: And the guy said to me, we're in a black
Speaker 1: box theater shooting this movie for all these scenes inside
Speaker 1: this theater for a month in Florida. And he says, so,
Speaker 1: no windows, know nothing, no light dependent at all. He goes,
Speaker 1: we can shoot whenever we want. He goes, what time
Speaker 1: you want to go to work? Love it? And I said, none,
Speaker 1: I'm going to shooting noon to midnight. Yeah. We did.
Speaker 1: We shot noon to midnight for four weeks and I
Speaker 1: was in heaven. I was like, man, I'm just getting going.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like about seven or eight at night, like
Speaker 2: my best work. I don't wake up that late, but
Speaker 2: my best work is at night. So having that ten
Speaker 2: o'clock slot was perfect for me. And then you know,
Speaker 2: I was on until midnight every night, but that was
Speaker 2: when I would get that energy.
Speaker 1: And you like being solo. Oh, I love the co
Speaker 1: anchors for a while. It's tough you didn't like that format. No,
Speaker 1: I'm a team player, but not in that way. I
Speaker 1: have my own flow and everybody can't keep up with me,
Speaker 1: you know, and and doubles tennis, they're not the best partner. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at your game, and you got to you gotta have
Speaker 1: a good part of that. You have to have someone
Speaker 1: who can keep up with you.
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't mean that in a you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not diminishing anyone, but someone like a Kara Swisher
Speaker 2: personal Yeah, like someone like a Kara Swisher or a
Speaker 2: Joy Behar or someone they could keep up with me.
Speaker 2: They get my sense of humor and they don't take
Speaker 2: anything personally and they can give it or take it
Speaker 2: as good as they give it, right, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean?
Speaker 1: I love that kind of but they didn't want to
Speaker 1: demonize or criminalize your moderances.
Speaker 2: No, because they they under they they their pals and
Speaker 2: they get me.
Speaker 1: It's not personal.
Speaker 2: It's just we're just we're just sitting having a conversation
Speaker 2: and people say all kinds of things and conversations and
Speaker 2: it's not personal.
Speaker 1: It's just your talking. And when you talk, you say
Speaker 1: things and you.
Speaker 2: Go, ah, I don't mean that, Okay, all right, right,
Speaker 2: so I said some shit, that was great, whatever, and
Speaker 2: you just move on. But you can't do that with everybody,
Speaker 2: because you know, especially like younger folks, everything is like
Speaker 2: a personal affront.
Speaker 1: Well, you walk in on the set of a project,
Speaker 1: and when you're around young people, I find that there's
Speaker 1: a potential for certain difficulties. So I've never had any
Speaker 1: problems with this myself. I never had any I've had
Speaker 1: other problems obviously, but not that one. And you walk
Speaker 1: onto the set, especially of a film, and you're there
Speaker 1: and people they're tents. You don't realize how tense there.
Speaker 1: They're scared younger people. You come on and there. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've made whatever number of movies, I made one hundred movies,
Speaker 1: ninety movies, whatever. I take pictures with people now, But
Speaker 1: I got taught by somebody famous. You put your arm
Speaker 1: out and they hook their elbow around your elbow, and
Speaker 1: they go, why do you want to do that? A
Speaker 1: few of them would say, and I say, I can't
Speaker 1: put my hand behind your body, and you got it.
Speaker 1: My hand can't be hidden behind your back in the
Speaker 1: photogo all the games you got to play now? Which
Speaker 1: are which? Was not concerned?
Speaker 2: No, but you're right about that. You said you've done
Speaker 2: so many movies. I had been. I think I was
Speaker 2: doing the afternoons from six about nine, and then I
Speaker 2: started doing the weekend evenings, and so I'd been doing
Speaker 2: the weekend evenings. I'd been solo, I should say, from
Speaker 2: about two thousand and nine to twenty twenty three or
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and so I was just used to
Speaker 2: my own flow and people, you know, were used to
Speaker 2: me just being me, and so I had been there
Speaker 2: for quite some time solo anchor. And you know, people
Speaker 2: come in and they're like they you know, they don't
Speaker 2: get it.
Speaker 1: You know, now when you do a show like that
Speaker 1: for people who don't know, because I find this behind
Speaker 1: the scenes very interesting. You come in there you come in.
Speaker 1: The show was on the air at ten. The big
Speaker 1: show was on a ten. He did the pass too
Speaker 1: with Chris, and then everybody thought that was very entertaining
Speaker 1: the two of you.
Speaker 2: It's the biggest compliment that people say about that and
Speaker 2: about my show. They say that was the last appointment
Speaker 2: television for the network. Was that handoff and then going
Speaker 2: on the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But the thing that people don't understand is you
Speaker 1: get there what time?
Speaker 2: It would depend. If I had a pre tape, I
Speaker 2: would go in earlier. But at the end I moved
Speaker 2: across the street from the office, so it would take
Speaker 2: me literally a minute, minute and a half to be
Speaker 2: on the set because I lived and it was in
Speaker 2: huts and yards. So I would go to work probably
Speaker 2: about eight eight thirty.
Speaker 1: So You're out there at three o'clock writing.
Speaker 2: No, I'm doing that from home, got it because basically
Speaker 2: my office is not much further from the set than
Speaker 2: my home was. But before that, I would probably get
Speaker 2: to work about six, right And the reason I did
Speaker 2: that part of it was because of Jeff. Jeff said,
Speaker 2: why are you working on the show so early?
Speaker 1: Your show?
Speaker 2: Why are you guys in the morning meeting the morning
Speaker 2: meetings at nine in the morning. Your show is twelve
Speaker 2: hours away, a half a day away. Everything's going to
Speaker 2: change exactly, So what are you doing? And I found
Speaker 2: that when I would study for all of this stuff
Speaker 2: and just study, study, study, and over prepare, and then
Speaker 2: by the time the show came about at ten o'clock,
Speaker 2: it would be a whole different show.
Speaker 1: And I'd say, why the hell didn't know? Would I
Speaker 1: do this? You got to be more plod set, to
Speaker 1: learn to be nimble. Now you're there doing a show
Speaker 1: like that. How much do director I'm talk about technical
Speaker 1: directors with cameras in a studio? Are the directors, segment producers, writers?
Speaker 1: Who's got your ear in terms of content while you're
Speaker 1: doing the show? So it's my executive producer? And how
Speaker 1: many of those did you have when you were on
Speaker 1: the big show?
Speaker 2: I had one executive producer who is and then Maria Spanella,
Speaker 2: and then I had my own personal producer, and then
Speaker 2: there were segment producers. And so if there was a
Speaker 2: segment that someone had prepared and they needed to be
Speaker 2: in the control room, usually they stood there anyways, and
Speaker 2: so the segment producer would get in my ear. But
Speaker 2: usually it was the executive producer, but sometimes they would say,
Speaker 2: you know, I would say it was nineteen times and
Speaker 2: they'd go ninety ninety and I'm going because sometimes you
Speaker 2: don't realize what you say right. You'll just read something
Speaker 2: wrong or you just say something wrong, and so they
Speaker 2: would correct me. But it was mostly the director and
Speaker 2: the executive producer, and mostly the director who would say, okay,
Speaker 2: thirty seconds out, ten seconds out camera two, so start
Speaker 2: on camera two and I'm going to turn you to three.
Speaker 2: Stand by, you know, the whole thing, three two and
Speaker 2: go camera one, turn and then you do that that
Speaker 2: sort of thing, right, And then you know, they would
Speaker 2: say yeah, and you'd say you know, and it's fourteen
Speaker 2: people and they'd say graphic and I'd go, take to
Speaker 2: look at your screen, that it's up on the screen
Speaker 2: right now, blah blah blah blah blah, and then you
Speaker 2: talk about blah. And then they'd say on cam and
Speaker 2: then I'd look back up and go, okay.
Speaker 1: Then just someone's directing your performance. Yeah, directing.
Speaker 2: They just just to know where I'm going.
Speaker 1: Technically, right, but they're directing your your tone or no.
Speaker 2: If I was off on something, someone would say she
Speaker 2: says something she'd say like, all right, watch it up,
Speaker 2: wastch your tone? Yeah, or yeah, you're you're dragging a
Speaker 2: little bit.
Speaker 1: Are you tired?
Speaker 2: Whatever you want us to bring? You want us to
Speaker 2: bring your coffee, diet coke or something, yeah, Or I'm
Speaker 2: gonna send makeup in. You're shiny, but that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: That's it small small.
Speaker 1: Now I'm assuming that when Licked comes in, this is
Speaker 1: just zas Love wants things his way. This is his
Speaker 1: magiem it's now it's going to be my CNN. So
Speaker 1: Zucker's gone and he brings Licked in and when Zucker's
Speaker 1: gonna gone? How much advanced notice did you have the
Speaker 1: Zuker was leaving? Oh that I mean that was in
Speaker 1: the news, right, so not much. Did you know when
Speaker 1: he was going to be gone and someone else was
Speaker 1: coming in who was going to run the company? You
Speaker 1: didn't know.
Speaker 2: No, no one, no one, No one gave you what
Speaker 2: any dance. No, it was in the it was in
Speaker 2: the morning meeting. When it happened. I was in La,
Speaker 2: and I forget what I was doing. It made have
Speaker 2: an award season or something.
Speaker 1: I forget.
Speaker 2: I was in La doing a project for the network,
Speaker 2: and I took the Red Eye and I got home
Speaker 2: and went to sleep, and I woke up to a
Speaker 2: lot of text messages and I was like, wait, what
Speaker 2: is this. It always happens that way. That happened that
Speaker 2: way when when Chris was let go, Chris linked and
Speaker 2: my executive Priss said, don Jeff just resigned in the
Speaker 2: morning meeting, and I was like, wait what And then
Speaker 2: he called me and he said I didn't have a
Speaker 2: chance to tell you whatever, blah blah blah. And you know,
Speaker 2: he called everybody afterwards, but he did. I don't think
Speaker 2: he really had any notice himself, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I kind of equate him. This is just my opinion,
Speaker 1: by the way, which is meaningless, but I kind of
Speaker 1: equate him with Ronnie Meyer when they let Ronnie Meyer
Speaker 1: go for similar reasons his personal life, and you want
Speaker 1: to sit there and you want to go, well, I'm
Speaker 1: running a company now and I'd like this guy to go,
Speaker 1: and that's my excuse to let him go. And I
Speaker 1: really was going to bring in another guy because I
Speaker 1: want my I want to run my CNN, but he's gone,
Speaker 1: like Universal, I think Ronnie Meyer hit the point where
Speaker 1: he was making like forty million dollars a year, and.
Speaker 2: They were like, no, yeah, we need you to go. Look,
Speaker 2: I'll let you say that. But you're a smart guy.
Speaker 2: So but here, you know, Jeff is the last of
Speaker 2: a TV executive, the celebrity TV executive Mavericks. Right, everyone
Speaker 2: is so risk averse now they're afraid, you know, they're
Speaker 2: with the stockholders wanting all that. He really protected us
Speaker 2: from the overlords, right from the corporate you know overlords.
Speaker 2: He really did his guts, his guts and he's like,
Speaker 2: you know, this is journalism. I understand what you do
Speaker 2: because he did what they did, right. He ran NBC
Speaker 2: and he understood it. But he's really a journalist at
Speaker 2: heart because he started at the Today Show and he
Speaker 2: started in the news person there. He had a good
Speaker 2: run there, and then he went to run the news
Speaker 2: division at NBC, and then he entertainment. Then he ran
Speaker 2: the entire network. So he really and we didn't realize it,
Speaker 2: you know, until he was gone.
Speaker 1: When Licked comes, like most executives, I assume when you're
Speaker 1: the top tier talent on the show that they come with.
Speaker 1: Is it like dinners and whining and dining and getting
Speaker 1: to know each other and everything's well and you don't
Speaker 1: really know where it's going to go, and then it
Speaker 1: goes the wrong way. Yeah, there's a little of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a little of that. It's polite, it's polite, yeah
Speaker 1: in the beginning. Yeah, and then things changed, right. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I just find that odd because I just
Speaker 1: feel like I won't name names, but I've known a
Speaker 1: couple of people who are execs at film studios, especially TV,
Speaker 1: where the that conveyor belt is moving and they can't
Speaker 1: press pause. They have a plan which seems to be
Speaker 1: everybody's plan.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: Years ago it was a plan. Now it's everybody's plan,
Speaker 1: which is, if I can't raise revenue, I got to
Speaker 1: cut costs. So it's just a lot of firing, a
Speaker 1: lot of budget cutting.
Speaker 2: But don't you think to a certain extent that when
Speaker 2: your job is protected and mentioned in the First Amendment,
Speaker 2: that there should be some exemption from that whole thing.
Speaker 2: Like I don't think the news division should be solely
Speaker 2: or wholly in large part driven by revenue and numbers,
Speaker 2: numbers and ratings. It shouldn't because you're supposed to give information,
Speaker 2: you're supposed to hold people who are in power hold
Speaker 2: into account.
Speaker 1: But you told me that when we were at the
Speaker 1: book party. I raised my hand, I asked the question.
Speaker 1: I said, the networks and traditional media, mainstream media, have
Speaker 1: they lost young people? And you said, they haven't lost,
Speaker 1: but they're losing. And then you went on to talk
Speaker 1: about the people who are considered through some research who
Speaker 1: quoted to being about being the most informed people get
Speaker 1: their news from where.
Speaker 2: They get their news digitally? Right, Yeah, and listen, the
Speaker 2: older people get their news from you know, they watch,
Speaker 2: they sit they they watch cable news all day, they
Speaker 2: watch six thirty or they you know, they're watching the
Speaker 2: morning shows or they're doing that. Younger people are getting
Speaker 2: their news on TikTok or whatever. But the most informed
Speaker 2: people are they'll go on digitally. They'll watch something on YouTube,
Speaker 2: They'll watch whatever, even if they go to you know,
Speaker 2: Twitter or TikTok or whatever. But then they'll do their
Speaker 2: research and they are media literate and more media savvy.
Speaker 2: I find the people who sit in front of the
Speaker 2: television all day have an unconscious or built in bias
Speaker 2: because you can tell from whatever network they're watching. But
Speaker 2: by the time they get to the arguments around the table,
Speaker 2: the panels they don't know what they actually came there for,
Speaker 2: what the point of the whole segment was.
Speaker 1: That's what they conveyed to me. Well, the shows which
Speaker 1: are moderated shows, which are these s mash pits, and
Speaker 1: everybody's going at it. I think more and more people
Speaker 1: that realize now that it's not worth their time. I
Speaker 1: always say to people, what do I watch? I said,
Speaker 1: I watch Wolf Blitzer straight. I call them straight no chaser, right, right, right,
Speaker 1: it's just like happening now. Just tell me what the
Speaker 1: stop stories are and then I want to go have
Speaker 1: dinner with my wife. You know, give me ten fifteen
Speaker 1: minutes on my couch. I watched in every night. Every night, Yeah,
Speaker 1: watch Blitzer. I watch MSNBC only when I come home.
Speaker 1: I watched Blitzer. I go to dinner, I come back
Speaker 1: and I watch Lawrence O'donaldy. Yeah, every night.
Speaker 2: I like Lawrence, I like Rachel I like But I
Speaker 2: think it's different when you're in primetime, as you know,
Speaker 2: it's just like when you do you know, in primetime
Speaker 2: you just sitcoms or whatever. It's different than something that's
Speaker 2: on during the day, right, And I think it's the
Speaker 2: same thing with cable news. Now, I don't believe that.
Speaker 2: For networks, that's a different thing. You got six thirty
Speaker 2: and it's straight, no chaser, good evening and we're gonna
Speaker 2: start in Afghanistan and whatever it is. And then but
Speaker 2: at night, if you're watching cable, it's more of a
Speaker 2: personal experience and it's a longer sort of flow. And
Speaker 2: people they wanted to be appointment television, and they wanted
Speaker 2: to be someone familiar with, someone they trust, someone who
Speaker 2: can actually maybe tell them a little bit how they feel.
Speaker 2: People would say, I wasn't sure about it. Dom then
Speaker 2: I watched you and I said, you know what, that
Speaker 2: guy's right, and I think that's okay. I don't agree
Speaker 2: with everything, hardly anything that Sean Hannity says, but he's
Speaker 2: perfect for a primetime cable show, right, he's and he's
Speaker 2: a star.
Speaker 1: I don't little O'Reilly. We had a great delivery, and
Speaker 1: he was a real broadcaster. I didn't agree with the
Speaker 1: word he said either.
Speaker 2: I've always said that about Bill O'Reilly. He's a great performer.
Speaker 2: And I would watch him and I would take notes
Speaker 2: and go that guy is good and the same thing,
Speaker 2: and people are gonna, you know, gonna go, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: I can't believe he said that. Same thing with Megan Kelly,
Speaker 2: I don't agree with anything she says. She's turned out
Speaker 2: to me the biggest troll and she flipped up. Oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, it's embarrassing.
Speaker 1: I went to a book party of first with my wife,
Speaker 1: but when she.
Speaker 2: Was the same we were at that same party. Yeah,
Speaker 2: on the rooftop of a hotel somewhere eeah. But she
Speaker 2: at that time, I think she was on at eight
Speaker 2: or nine o'clock or whatever at night.
Speaker 1: She was perfect for that hour.
Speaker 2: She's a great performer. She comes on and she's energy whatever,
Speaker 2: and you know, the morning Speaking of people being out
Speaker 2: of position, the morning show is not her position, I believe,
Speaker 2: just like it wasn't. I was in in position as well.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing about a good media or news executive.
Speaker 2: They know what positions people should be playing, so you
Speaker 2: need that sort of a personality. Same thing with Chris.
Speaker 1: Chris is a star.
Speaker 2: He's great for cable news at night. Chris Cuomo, he's
Speaker 2: great for cable news at night. I thought I was
Speaker 2: great for cable news at night, you know, and people
Speaker 2: wanted to tune in. They wanted to tune into us.
Speaker 2: Rachel Maddow perfect cable news host.
Speaker 1: But I think that people when I watch news, having
Speaker 1: grown up and having had news having a very sacred
Speaker 1: place in my life. It was sacred. The news was
Speaker 1: very important to me. And now when I see the news,
Speaker 1: it's just weird. There's a chemistry. You have to have
Speaker 1: a chemistry with that person, you know, like I used
Speaker 1: to listen to He's a good friend of mine. I
Speaker 1: love Kurt Anderson. And when Kurt had that show Studio
Speaker 1: three sixty on NPO, I loved that show. That was
Speaker 1: my favorite podcast, along with This American Life for Kurt Anderson.
Speaker 2: And you don't feel you have that connection to any
Speaker 2: of the news folks with you.
Speaker 1: I love watching you on TV. I'm not just saying
Speaker 1: that I thought you were great. I mean were you
Speaker 1: had the right chemistry. I mean beyond you being a
Speaker 1: handsome guy and being stylish and being this and that.
Speaker 1: Thank you, but you had a great delivery. It was
Speaker 1: really it was easy to watch you where there's people
Speaker 1: that I watch and I go.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe a little less of you, But it's the
Speaker 2: same thing with knowing who's a good reporter and who's
Speaker 2: a good anchor. Very few people can do both, and
Speaker 2: people don't realize it. They don't understand that like anchoring
Speaker 2: a show, it's another world. It's not easy and you
Speaker 2: have to hold someone's attention. But I think now in
Speaker 2: this day and age, people think that, Okay, they're a
Speaker 2: good reporter, so therefore they're a good anchor, and I
Speaker 2: disagree with that. You can have someone who can anchor
Speaker 2: a show who is not necessarily the best journalists in
Speaker 2: the world, but they're interesting. But when there are big
Speaker 2: breaking news stories, then you throw to the person who's
Speaker 2: the good report.
Speaker 1: The YouTube thing is on what time? Now, you're on
Speaker 1: the air? One I'm on the air.
Speaker 2: Well, it lives forever on YouTube. But I do a
Speaker 2: five o'clock show every day, which was not how I
Speaker 2: envisioned doing it. I do a five o'clock live show
Speaker 2: every day where I just talk to the subscribers and
Speaker 2: talk to them about things that's happening and what they
Speaker 2: should know before they know go home or have dinner.
Speaker 2: But then I just started one at ten am, which
Speaker 2: is sort of a hot topic show where I'm trying
Speaker 2: to get away from the politics, you know, and the
Speaker 2: hard news and do things that are a little lighter.
Speaker 2: But everything in the zeitgeist now is politics. You know,
Speaker 2: they're eating the dogs or eating the cats. That goes over.
Speaker 2: You know, it also bills over.
Speaker 1: Author and anchor Don Lemon. If you enjoy conversations with
Speaker 1: famous broadcasters, check out my episode with the legendary Dan Rather.
Speaker 3: When the first faint edge is what we came to
Speaker 3: know is Watergate, you can do e merge. I was
Speaker 3: skeptical that it would reach the Oval Office itself. You
Speaker 3: never met anybody who had more respect for the office
Speaker 3: or the presidency in the United States than I do.
Speaker 3: It was very difficult for me to accept that the
Speaker 3: president himself would be involved in any way. However, as
Speaker 3: time went along, facts begin to first whisper, then they
Speaker 3: begin to speak in full voice, and then the facts
Speaker 3: begin to shout. It isn't just lower level campaign operatuities,
Speaker 3: It isn't just lower level members of the administration that
Speaker 3: this probably goes into the Oval Office itself.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Dan Rather, go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Don
Speaker 1: Lemon tells us how a tragic event led to him
Speaker 1: rethinking his relationship with God and with his faith. I'm
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. Don
Speaker 1: Lemon's new book, I Once Was Lost My Search for
Speaker 1: God in America details his very personal examination of his faith.
Speaker 1: But this is not Lemon's first foray in the publishing world.
Speaker 2: I've written three books. This is a fire debut at
Speaker 2: number one New York Times during the George Floyd thing
Speaker 2: when that all happened in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: And the first thing I said to you when I
Speaker 1: came backstage to just give you a quick carg at
Speaker 1: the book party was you should write another book.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, God, oh know, man, it's tough, Alec,
Speaker 2: It's so tough, and you don't know, you know it was.
Speaker 2: It was easier in the sense. What was easier was
Speaker 2: the selling of the book, when I had that big
Speaker 2: engine behind me of CNN, where I could mention at
Speaker 2: any moment, you know, it's in my book, and by
Speaker 2: the way, you can go buy it and blah blah
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. Or in the commercial break, I would
Speaker 2: say throw my book up, and as we go to
Speaker 2: commercial and say, by the way, my book is on
Speaker 2: sale and you can get it at Barnes and Noble
Speaker 2: or any local book store. They were fine, that would
Speaker 2: help them, and so I was able to do that
Speaker 2: with that book. I can't do with this book. I
Speaker 2: have to sell this book, which is good for you know.
Speaker 1: I don't mind.
Speaker 2: I can't do it on YouTube. Ye of course I
Speaker 2: do it on YouTube. I think some people are getting
Speaker 2: sick of it. But writing it is hard. It's like
Speaker 2: you're putting your heart out there. It's like you're wearing
Speaker 2: your heart outside of your body, not in the way
Speaker 2: that you have kids. But you don't know how people
Speaker 2: are going to receive it, if they're going to trample on,
Speaker 2: if they're going to trash you, if it's going to sell.
Speaker 2: It's just the whole thing.
Speaker 1: And you know it's more personal than anything you might
Speaker 1: do because it's you and you don't I make a movie.
Speaker 1: Somebody else is directing the movie. Yeah, what I mean? Now,
Speaker 1: you come from a I don't want to say religious,
Speaker 1: so that you use the word. You want to describe
Speaker 1: the family you came from in terms of faith.
Speaker 2: Well, I came from a family who was faithful. Let's
Speaker 2: put it that way. They had faith. My mother was
Speaker 2: not as churchy, as they say, as my aunt was.
Speaker 2: She's got Alzheimer's now a holy roller. You know, she'd
Speaker 2: never missed a sermon. She was on the usher board
Speaker 2: and all of that stuff. My mom was in the choir,
Speaker 2: but she wasn't quite as religious as her the rest
Speaker 2: of her family, but my grandmother was as well. You know,
Speaker 2: they were members and you pay their dues. I'm sure
Speaker 2: my mom still pays dues for the church. She just
Speaker 2: doesn't go as often as as you know, one would think.
Speaker 2: But I went to I grew up Baptist. I would
Speaker 2: go to church, and then I'd go to Sunday Bible
Speaker 2: School in the Baptist Church, and then I'd go to
Speaker 2: vacation Bible School in the summer in the Baptist Church.
Speaker 2: And during the week during the school year, I went
Speaker 2: to the Catholic school and we would do Catechism, and
Speaker 2: then we'd have Mass on Friday every Friday, and then
Speaker 2: if it was a special holiday, we'd have Mass then.
Speaker 2: And then in the morning we would line up like
Speaker 2: a military school, hand out front of the hands on
Speaker 2: the shoulder, and we'd line up by height, and then
Speaker 2: we'd have the announcement and we'd do the Star Spangled
Speaker 2: banner and the pledge allegiance, and then we would pray,
Speaker 2: and then we'd go to class in lines like a
Speaker 2: military school. And then you would before you go to
Speaker 2: recess or whatever you talked about in the book howbouch
Speaker 2: you liked pray? I liked it because it was because
Speaker 2: it gave you discipline and you had a regiment and
Speaker 2: we're part of something. You were part of something, and
Speaker 2: there was a stability there that you had. You know, Okay,
Speaker 2: we got to go to the recess. We stand up,
Speaker 2: we pray that we're going to be safe at recess,
Speaker 2: and then we all line up and we go down
Speaker 2: to the yard and we have the recess, and then
Speaker 2: we come back. And then before we went to lunch,
Speaker 2: we'd pray, you know, over our meal, and then we
Speaker 2: come back and we pray whatever. So and then if
Speaker 2: an adult enter the class, you'd say good afternoon, mister
Speaker 2: ball went, and you'd stand up, and we did not
Speaker 2: sit down until mister Baldwin would say you were told
Speaker 2: to good afternoon class.
Speaker 1: You may be seated, you may be seated. It was
Speaker 1: a different world, amazing, right, you know my faith. I'm
Speaker 1: a Catholic and I'm still Catholic, and I go to
Speaker 1: church periodically. I go into waves and I go to
Speaker 1: hear that man speak. Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles and
Speaker 1: Father Torchisen, who was the head guy there at Saint Monica's,
Speaker 1: I go hear him speak. I go went to the
Speaker 1: city and go to Blessed Sacrament on seventy first Street
Speaker 1: off of Broadway, and watched this a couple of guys speak.
Speaker 1: But my guys in East Tampton who came out for
Speaker 1: the swing mass in the summertime. So I go down
Speaker 1: in the summer and I get my community and I
Speaker 1: wait for him as he came out of the recessional
Speaker 1: before everybody else mobbed him, and I said to me,
Speaker 1: he's alone. I get him a lot. I'd pull him
Speaker 1: aside from the other people with a recession and I go,
Speaker 1: I want to do the confession the reconcilly face to face.
Speaker 1: And he literally he's like this kid from Rosedale Queens.
Speaker 1: She goes, ah, you want to do that? He goes,
Speaker 1: oh please, I go no, I want to do that.
Speaker 1: I want to please. I can't stand that, because are
Speaker 1: you sorry for what you did in the name of
Speaker 1: the Father and the son, the onlysp you're absolved. Oh please,
Speaker 1: don't make me do that. Like we were pals. That's
Speaker 1: why we're not in that racket anymore. We're friends. And
Speaker 1: I thought, oh God, I can't believe that much this
Speaker 1: church has changed. Change. You want to do that? You
Speaker 1: know you want to do that? Please? He said, get away.
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about that nonsense. And I
Speaker 1: was like, Oh God, who's going to hear my confession
Speaker 1: on him? See, my friend.
Speaker 2: I still can remember my the priest's voices in my
Speaker 2: We have Father Hines, I can remember his big deep
Speaker 2: and then we had Father Elwood, and I can just remember.
Speaker 2: Their voices are stuck in my head because I was
Speaker 2: in Catholic Church so much.
Speaker 1: But I want to switch to this idea that obviously
Speaker 1: with what I've been through in recent couple of years,
Speaker 1: this very difficult situation I was dealing with. It was
Speaker 1: painful on a level I can't even give words do.
Speaker 1: I literally can't even describe to people how much I
Speaker 1: suffered from that. And you where is the summoning of
Speaker 1: your faith in your adult life? And in recent years
Speaker 1: when there was tough times for you, did you get
Speaker 1: into digging for help in that direction. Yes I did.
Speaker 2: But first of all, I whant to say, I'm happy
Speaker 2: that that's over. And you know everyone was praying for you,
Speaker 2: and we all got what was happening, so I can
Speaker 2: thank you for standing tough.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2: So, yes, I've always been a faithful person, but as
Speaker 2: my mother is, I'm not a churchy person, but I'm
Speaker 2: a believer and I've always prayed and hoped and had faith,
Speaker 2: and I've had to summon it more often than not.
Speaker 2: I don't wear it on my sleeve because I don't
Speaker 2: believe in that. I don't believe in pushing my faith
Speaker 2: my religion on anyone else, and it's a personal thing
Speaker 2: for me. I had a crisis of faith in twenty
Speaker 2: eighteen when my sister died suddenly in an accidental drowning,
Speaker 2: and that was I started thinking about this, how was she?
Speaker 2: She was I think fifty nine at the time, and
Speaker 2: I started to question God, like, why would God do that?
Speaker 2: You know, it's supposed to be a benevolent God, and
Speaker 2: I know there are bad things that happened all the time,
Speaker 2: and you realize that intellectually until something happens to you,
Speaker 2: right and you go, why did this happen to me?
Speaker 2: And so I asked why?
Speaker 1: Why? Why?
Speaker 2: And I dug deep and then I said why not?
Speaker 1: And I tried to figure out, you know, why this
Speaker 1: was why? I read that somewhere, wasn't there quote in
Speaker 1: the book about someone said well why?
Speaker 2: There was a quote in the book. But also I'd
Speaker 2: heard that before. But also Anderson Cooper's mom, Gloria Bennerbilt,
Speaker 2: said the same thing. She said, you know, people would
Speaker 2: go why me, why me?
Speaker 1: Why me? Why not me?
Speaker 2: And then there was in my family there was a
Speaker 2: similar sort of saying why not You so figure out
Speaker 2: why it happened to you? Why this is happening to you,
Speaker 2: And there's there's a reason, and maybe it's just to
Speaker 2: make you stronger.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I would much prefer not to go through such things.
Speaker 2: And so I started questioning, why would God take my sister.
Speaker 2: She has beautiful kids, she has beautiful grandkids. She was
Speaker 2: so proud of her grandson, who was a great basketball player,
Speaker 2: a great football player.
Speaker 1: She went every game like what why? Why?
Speaker 2: Why son? That happened? And then after I started thinking
Speaker 2: about this book, and then the George Floyd thing happened,
Speaker 2: and I had pitched this George Floyd book and no
Speaker 2: one wanted to buy it. Not George Floyd, but about racism,
Speaker 2: and no one wanted to buy it. And then you know,
Speaker 2: the thing happened and everyone's like, can.
Speaker 1: You write that book?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay. So I wrote it and it
Speaker 2: was number one. But I started having this sort of
Speaker 2: crisis of faith, and then I started writing the book,
Speaker 2: and it was going to be sort of this, you know,
Speaker 2: a coda to the last book, and where I was
Speaker 2: just going to you know, move from racism and a
Speaker 2: little bit more into religion. And I was going to
Speaker 2: interview religious figures and people folks like you, and talk
Speaker 2: about their faith. And then when I left CNN, it
Speaker 2: became something else. I think it became a much better
Speaker 2: and more personal book. So yes, it's a long story short,
Speaker 2: a long story long. I have had, you know, points
Speaker 2: in my life where I had to lean on my
Speaker 2: religion and the Lord, and I don't really talk to
Speaker 2: people about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting when you work in this business. It
Speaker 1: could be anywhere film and television or news of whatever medium,
Speaker 1: cable or of streaming network you're around and you said
Speaker 1: this word a lot on the book cynical. You're around
Speaker 1: a lot of cynical people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what journalists are generally, right, generally.
Speaker 1: You're right there, of course they are. And you sit
Speaker 1: there and you think, what's it like to go minute
Speaker 1: to minute through an experience with a bunch of cynical people, Like,
Speaker 1: was there anybody at work who was faith based even
Speaker 1: to some degree you could talk about it with? Was
Speaker 1: it all just family and close friends and tim?
Speaker 2: It was all just family and family and close friends,
Speaker 2: But mostly it was just me Alan, right, I didn't
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's an inside job. And I remember,
Speaker 2: you know, things would get so tough because doing what
Speaker 2: I did was a very stressful. There's a high pressure job,
Speaker 2: high wire job, every night live and you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: something comes out of your mouth and there's always something
Speaker 2: Why did you say this?
Speaker 1: Why do you do this?
Speaker 2: Other people hate you here, other than mad at you here?
Speaker 2: You got to give this response here and I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, Like why most people just go it's
Speaker 2: nine to five job, they go home. It's like you
Speaker 2: screwed up up, you know, you round it up, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: so and then you get over it and then when
Speaker 2: that would happen to my sister and all the other
Speaker 2: things that would happen, I would count. I would say,
Speaker 2: you know, God got my steps, one, two, three, and
Speaker 2: I would just count my step. I would take step
Speaker 2: by step, by step by step, and I would count
Speaker 2: my steps to the studio sometimes, especially when my sister died,
Speaker 2: because you never knew when it was going to hit you,
Speaker 2: and so I would have to like think about things
Speaker 2: that go, you know, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, steps. Okay, tonight,
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about you know, Trump and you know,
Speaker 2: very fine people on both sides, both sides, and I
Speaker 2: would just have to keep and I would say, Lord,
Speaker 2: when I get there, help me see both sides, or
Speaker 2: help me whatever. And then I would just I would
Speaker 2: just pay it and say, okay, you know, get the
Speaker 2: IFB on it. And then I'd say, okay, God, here
Speaker 2: we go. Just don't let it happen. Don't let me
Speaker 2: get sad during the middle of a segment of start
Speaker 2: crying or whatever, and so let me be focused or whatever.
Speaker 2: And then you know, the music would come up and
Speaker 2: I would just I would say, and when they would
Speaker 2: say go, that's when I would snap out.
Speaker 1: Of it right with this New Mexico event. I sat
Speaker 1: there saying to myself, what do you want me to do?
Speaker 1: There must be something you want me to do, you
Speaker 1: want me to change, you want me to do this
Speaker 1: or that. I prayed harder for them to dismiss the
Speaker 1: case prior on the gun charge, and they denied us.
Speaker 1: So when I go to trial and I didn't get
Speaker 1: my way before, and I begged God, I begged, I'll
Speaker 1: never forget. I watched the crown and the Queen of
Speaker 1: England is on her knees praying next to her bed,
Speaker 1: and I go, if the Queen of England can get
Speaker 1: on her knees and pray, why can't I? And I
Speaker 1: got on my knees, and sometimes I'm crying, and I go, please,
Speaker 1: what do you want me to learn from this and
Speaker 1: do from this? I said, please make this case be
Speaker 1: dismissed on this charge. And later on it played out
Speaker 1: the way it played. I go, if you take your
Speaker 1: hands off the steering wheel and stop white knuckling the
Speaker 1: steering wheel and trying to control and manage everything, maybe
Speaker 1: something wonderful with results.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was the hand of God. Yeah, Sometimes you
Speaker 2: just have to say you know, as you said, take
Speaker 2: your hands off the wheel and just pray that you're
Speaker 2: going to be okay.
Speaker 1: What do you want me to do? I'm okay with
Speaker 1: whatever you will is show me. So did you let me?
Speaker 2: I'm going to be a journalist.
Speaker 1: Did it change you? That situation changed me a lot
Speaker 1: in terms of my feelings about having my children and
Speaker 1: getting be married and having so many kids, which is
Speaker 1: something that I you know, I kind of knew what
Speaker 1: I was doing, and people don't think you do. Then
Speaker 1: they go, you wake up one morning and somebody goes, oh,
Speaker 1: h peede on a stick, and oh guess what.
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: It's like, it's not all silly, and COVID happened, the
Speaker 1: strike happened, and overlapping with the strike was also my
Speaker 1: problem in New Mexico. What it made me do is
Speaker 1: people would say, my god, now you can get back
Speaker 1: to your old life, and I go, I don't want
Speaker 1: to get back in my own lives.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm asking you.
Speaker 1: This is my life now? Are you kids?
Speaker 2: Are you more compassionate?
Speaker 1: Yes? If compassion means everybody I meet, I have to
Speaker 1: say to myself, they're going through somebody. Now I want
Speaker 1: to switch the topic or to you with fame and
Speaker 1: bed carpets.
Speaker 2: But I understand how you feel, especially about because people
Speaker 2: when they meet me, they say you're different than what
Speaker 2: I read about, because people often let their enemies and
Speaker 2: their detractors define them, and you know, similarly to you,
Speaker 2: the right wing media hates me, so they write the
Speaker 2: worst shit about me, And then people meet me who
Speaker 2: are conservative and even Trump supporters, and they're like, you're
Speaker 2: not at all like what I read about in the
Speaker 2: New York Post, and you're like, no, I'm not that
Speaker 2: person at all.
Speaker 1: Is it funny how you can be somewhere in a
Speaker 1: kind of benign setting. You're walking through a park and
Speaker 1: with my kids at some store, and you see people
Speaker 1: and you see the way within under a second, with
Speaker 1: in a fraction of a second, you see them regard
Speaker 1: you in a way with their eyes where you who
Speaker 1: know they're maga Republicans and they're like, oh god, it's him. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I go walk into them and their kids playing,
Speaker 1: and I go, what's this little one's name? And you
Speaker 1: try to charm them and they're totally freaked out. They're like,
Speaker 1: my god, I can't normalize you, like I can't handle
Speaker 1: that right now. You're an asshole and you have to
Speaker 1: remain an asshole that. I know that very well. Journalist
Speaker 1: and anchor Don Lemon, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell
Speaker 1: a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Don Lemon shares his thoughts on
Speaker 1: the cancel deal with Elon Musk and the X platform.
Speaker 1: Following just one broadcast, I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening
Speaker 1: to here is the Thing. Don Lemon's recent wedding to
Speaker 1: his partner of eight years, Tim Malone, was heavily covered
Speaker 1: in the press. The pair are often photographed on the
Speaker 1: red carpet and at stylish events like New York Fashion Week.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know how a serious newsman navigates his
Speaker 1: relationship with fame.
Speaker 2: That is not why I got into the business, it says,
Speaker 2: you know, right, And I didn't get into this business thing.
Speaker 2: I was going to make a lot of money, but
Speaker 2: you became. But I became famous, And you know what,
Speaker 2: I'm enjoying my life. I'm happy. And if that fame,
Speaker 2: if that comes with it. If I get a better
Speaker 2: table at a restaurant, then so be it.
Speaker 1: But does that enjoy it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm enjoying it. And there are so many people
Speaker 2: who came before me who didn't get to do that.
Speaker 2: And just because I'm a journalist, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: I'm not a person. It doesn't mean that I don't
Speaker 2: enjoy getting out and meeting people. Doesn't mean that I
Speaker 2: don't enjoy going on red carpets and going to you know,
Speaker 2: beautiful events. Why wouldn't I. I'm a human being. I
Speaker 2: think it's okay. Just because you're a journalist, it doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that you're not, you know, a full person, a
Speaker 2: multi dimensional person.
Speaker 1: And I am.
Speaker 2: And so, you know what, I'm just enjoying my life.
Speaker 2: I'm grateful that i'm here. I don't know how many
Speaker 2: days are ahead of me, and while i'm here, I'm
Speaker 2: going to get the best out of it.
Speaker 1: The only reason you're on those red carpets is you're
Speaker 1: good looking. That's you. I think it's about you. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's I don't know. I think it's both.
Speaker 2: Yes, But I also think I'm there because I am
Speaker 2: enjoying it. If I wasn't enjoying it, I wouldn't be there.
Speaker 2: I enjoyed my job. I enjoyed what I you know,
Speaker 2: my profession and what I did, and I think that
Speaker 2: that shines through and so I think that that's what
Speaker 2: made me, you know, a star, so to speak, right
Speaker 2: in this business.
Speaker 1: Even those your warmth, No would I that's important. There's
Speaker 1: a magic mist that has to exude from you. It
Speaker 1: has to be admitted by you on camera, whether it
Speaker 1: comes through your eyes or anywhere you have to convey
Speaker 1: to your audience. There's no place out. So I'd rather
Speaker 1: be than here with you right rightly. When you do
Speaker 1: see that, you go, Hi, I'm Don Lemon, and tonight
Speaker 1: I want to tell you Oldbeppa.
Speaker 2: They're with you, yes, And you know what, I couldn't wait.
Speaker 2: I would tell them like I couldn't wait to get
Speaker 2: here to tell you this story today.
Speaker 1: So let's go. It's like the journalists equivalent of someone
Speaker 1: walking up to and going, would you like to dance?
Speaker 1: Shall we dance? It's an engagement between you when your Yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: two quick things. One is the election. And I believe
Speaker 1: that everybody who talks and kind of piles on online
Speaker 1: or anywhere about Trump is completely wasting their time. What
Speaker 1: else are there to say about him? Do you believe
Speaker 1: in polls.
Speaker 2: I believe poles are a snapshot in time. I believe
Speaker 2: in polls less so now than I did before. We
Speaker 2: all learned our lesson from twenty sixteen and then twenty
Speaker 2: twenty as well. But I think this time is going
Speaker 2: to be surprising. I think it's going to be surprising.
Speaker 2: I think she has a real chance. We had no
Speaker 2: chance with Biden or I admired, I my operation for him,
Speaker 2: but he was old. But I think there's a hidden
Speaker 2: vote for Trump with black men. I think even with
Speaker 2: some women that you know, they still love him. And
Speaker 2: I think with college students, I don't I know, and
Speaker 2: I don't get it either.
Speaker 1: I don't get it, but I don't get Also, is
Speaker 1: it there's a person who came in who knew nothing
Speaker 1: about government. He held no office, not even a mayoralty,
Speaker 1: not a governor, or as an executive, not a legislator
Speaker 1: in Congress or a state house. He knew nothing about government,
Speaker 1: and he served in the White House for four years
Speaker 1: and he still doesn't know anything.
Speaker 2: So it doesn't know you know what the people are,
Speaker 2: what they do. We're shocking to me, It shouldn't be shocking.
Speaker 2: But the folks on his side say she's not qualified
Speaker 2: and she has no experience, and I'm like, wait, do
Speaker 2: you know who you're supporting?
Speaker 1: Am I Are you insane? She's a senator, vice president,
Speaker 1: she's the attorney general. She's a bright woman. Yeah, she's
Speaker 1: everything he isn't. Yeah, all right, Musk, I just want
Speaker 1: to say with Musk, you know, Musk is like we
Speaker 1: were joking before you got into the Musk to me
Speaker 1: is like Howard Hughes meets Mickey Rooney. He's like this loopy,
Speaker 1: nutty guy that's constantly slamming the door in his hand
Speaker 1: and screwing himself up public relations wise. But he's also
Speaker 1: an engineering genius or whatever, and he's made all this
Speaker 1: money and sold cars, which are one of the most
Speaker 1: difficult things on earth to do is to create a
Speaker 1: car and sell it to this country. When you went
Speaker 1: in to talk to him, I mean, obviously you were
Speaker 1: poised to work with him or for him at that
Speaker 1: company and do your show on X and that blew up.
Speaker 1: But when you were there, did you say to yourself,
Speaker 1: he's not much different from a lot of other network executives.
Speaker 1: I know you didn't have any trepidation. Well, let me
Speaker 1: say this.
Speaker 2: I am in ongoing and pending litigation out of him,
Speaker 2: so I can't really say a lot. But what I
Speaker 2: can say is that I went into this with the
Speaker 2: best of intentions, and at first I did not want
Speaker 2: to do it. It took some cajoling and some convincing,
Speaker 2: and finally I did. I did not work for him.
Speaker 2: He was not my boss.
Speaker 1: He was not hiring me.
Speaker 2: What I had was a content deal with him, a
Speaker 2: distribution deal where they would have a certain exclusive material
Speaker 2: for an amount of time and then it would go everywhere.
Speaker 1: So you know, why not do it?
Speaker 2: Because I wanted to. What I wanted to do was
Speaker 2: what he and they said, to get on the platform
Speaker 2: and to be a counter to all of the sort
Speaker 2: of right wing conspiracy theorists that are out there. And
Speaker 2: you know that, you know, lasted all of half a day.
Speaker 2: So it didn't work out. So I feel, you know,
Speaker 2: it's awful that it didn't work out. It wasn't great
Speaker 2: for me, wasn't what you hoped. It wasn't what I hoped,
Speaker 2: But you know, I'd worked with difficult people, but usually
Speaker 2: that's in within the confines of a business that does
Speaker 2: not play out publicly like it did. He's a very
Speaker 2: consequential person to the world, and he has a very
Speaker 2: big and powerful platform that can affect lives, livelihood and
Speaker 2: even people's safety, and one I believe must be and
Speaker 2: should be careful and more responsible with that.
Speaker 1: What do you hope people will take from this book?
Speaker 2: The biggest thing is that I want people to understand
Speaker 2: that we don't and shouldn't live in a theocracy, but
Speaker 2: it's going that way. And if you go through difficult periods,
Speaker 2: as you well know, if you trust the process, which
Speaker 2: is really called faith. People always say trust the process, right,
Speaker 2: which is really faith for me is that it's going
Speaker 2: to be okay. And if it's not okay, then usually
Speaker 2: we don't know about it, but usually things work out
Speaker 2: for the best. And I think it's you have to
Speaker 2: have the right mentality, and you have to have the
Speaker 2: right faith, and you have to have people around you
Speaker 2: who love.
Speaker 1: You as you well know as you are, yeah, and
Speaker 1: love you for who you are.
Speaker 2: Love you for who you are and so but I
Speaker 2: want people to get to know my story. I tell
Speaker 2: my story alec and America story through the lens of
Speaker 2: religion and faith in this country. And I wrote this
Speaker 2: book because of my love for the country and my
Speaker 2: love for God, and I wanted people to have an
Speaker 2: insight on how it shaped my life and my world.
Speaker 2: And I fought against the evangelical teachings that sought to
Speaker 2: marginalize me.
Speaker 1: I want you to read something. You always ask authors
Speaker 1: to read a piece of their book.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is an excerpt for my book, I Once
Speaker 2: Was Lost, my search for God in America. These days,
Speaker 2: a lot of people here and abroad associate the American
Speaker 2: flag with the most bellicose, narrow minded ideology. Because the
Speaker 2: ones waving that flag loudest and hardest are bellicose, narrow
Speaker 2: minded ideologues. They wave the flag as a symbol of
Speaker 2: the America. They envision a country that belongs to them
Speaker 2: by divine right, not the United States we all share.
Speaker 2: And to drive that point home, they carried the stars
Speaker 2: and stripes alongside the stars and bars of the Confederacy,
Speaker 2: a treasonous junta that literally tore the United States apart
Speaker 2: in a bloody effort to preserve slavery as an economic engine.
Speaker 2: The term Christian nationalism rings out with faux nobility, but
Speaker 2: it's a wolf in sheep's clothing, white supremacy, cloaked and
Speaker 2: evangelical religiosity.
Speaker 1: This section is some of the best writing in the book.
Speaker 1: I must say now, the other thing I want to
Speaker 1: say is for me, I want people to take that
Speaker 1: idea how we can reframe all that discussion about what
Speaker 1: it means to be a patriot and be an American Menon,
Speaker 1: You're one of many people who pursued that in this book.
Speaker 1: But what I got from this book was your It's
Speaker 1: a call. It's a call to say to people, we
Speaker 1: all need to take a break from this world, this loud, cacaphanous,
Speaker 1: commercialized world, and take a moment to connect with something spiritual.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be a religion, to just connect
Speaker 1: to something where we can settle ourselves. How can you
Speaker 1: calm yourself and make yourself the better you on a
Speaker 1: day to day basis? I mean, I get this from
Speaker 1: this book.
Speaker 2: Look, do you realize that you answered that question earlier
Speaker 2: when you said that, no matter how someone treats you
Speaker 2: or who they are, when you meet someone, you try
Speaker 2: to approach them as if they're going through something going through.
Speaker 2: What are they going through And so as I write
Speaker 2: and here, I believe that what's important to convey is
Speaker 2: that we keep trying to Most people keep trying to
Speaker 2: find look at, you know, create God in their own image,
Speaker 2: when we should be looking for God's image and other people.
Speaker 2: And as long as you do that, I think that's
Speaker 2: the answer. That's how you settle yourself. And you're talking
Speaker 2: about this about patriotism. I say in this book that
Speaker 2: as a black man, I have a complicated relationship with
Speaker 2: a flag, and as a gay man, I have a
Speaker 2: complicated relationship with a Bible. But I was able to
Speaker 2: overcome that by using critical thinking and trying to find
Speaker 2: love in my fellow man rather than judging people and
Speaker 2: trying to create God in my own image.
Speaker 1: You think you have your doubts about everybody comes out
Speaker 1: of It's like having a baby. You write a book.
Speaker 1: When it's done, you're like, oh, I'm never doing that.
Speaker 1: But the thing is that you write these books because
Speaker 1: I have a theory which is that these are bricks.
Speaker 1: These are bricks, and this is one of your bricks
Speaker 1: that you're building a library, a world library. These are bricks.
Speaker 1: I have a theory where when the aliens come and
Speaker 1: take over and destroy this world. They're going to erase
Speaker 1: every tape in every CD and every DVD that's just scarbage.
Speaker 1: And they're going to pick up a book and they go, now,
Speaker 1: what's this, And they're going to want to go this
Speaker 1: more thoughtful, this is more you, more of your heart
Speaker 1: is in this. I mean your work in television is exemplary.
Speaker 1: I mean I don't want you to give up writing books.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Alec. I think you're right.
Speaker 2: It's like we have all of these photographs in our
Speaker 2: cell phones, and then where do they go when we're
Speaker 2: not here? When I go to your house, right, your
Speaker 2: family's there, you're there, but I'm looking at the pictures
Speaker 2: on the wall and I go around and look and
Speaker 2: where's this from? Where's this moment from? But no one
Speaker 2: goes into your phone and does that. And that's the
Speaker 2: same thing that you're saying about the books and erasing
Speaker 2: things that are digital, because throughout.
Speaker 1: The moment, Yeah, thank you, thank you, My thanks to
Speaker 1: Don Lemon. Here's the Thing is recorded at CDM Studios
Speaker 1: in New York City. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo,
Speaker 1: Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial.
Speaker 1: Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio