1 00:00:08,285 --> 00:00:09,965 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:13,525 --> 00:00:16,045 Speaker 2: As a lot of you probably already know, While I've 3 00:00:16,045 --> 00:00:19,205 Speaker 2: been working on the Christina Pipkin case, I've also been 4 00:00:19,245 --> 00:00:24,005 Speaker 2: exploring other unsolved deaths in Arkansas. Right now, I'm looking 5 00:00:24,045 --> 00:00:27,405 Speaker 2: at an article from the Commercial Appeal newspaper that came 6 00:00:27,445 --> 00:00:31,405 Speaker 2: out on Thursday, June third, nineteen ninety three. The title 7 00:00:31,445 --> 00:00:35,165 Speaker 2: of the article is Authorities wonder if six kids deaths 8 00:00:35,165 --> 00:00:39,045 Speaker 2: in East Arkansas are related. Those children in the article 9 00:00:39,085 --> 00:00:42,445 Speaker 2: referred to were Christina Pipkin, who as we know, went 10 00:00:42,485 --> 00:00:46,085 Speaker 2: missing in May of nineteen ninety one, and also Steve Branch, 11 00:00:46,205 --> 00:00:49,285 Speaker 2: Michael Moore, and Christopher Byers, the three eight year old 12 00:00:49,325 --> 00:00:53,005 Speaker 2: boys who were murdered in West Memphis in nineteen ninety three. 13 00:00:53,165 --> 00:00:57,805 Speaker 2: It also includes sixteen year old Guardina Cross and thirteen 14 00:00:57,885 --> 00:01:02,925 Speaker 2: year old Geneva Smith. Guardina and Geneva's bodies were found 15 00:01:02,965 --> 00:01:06,285 Speaker 2: near Wynn, Arkansas, just a few miles from Hickory Ridge. 16 00:01:07,565 --> 00:01:10,645 Speaker 2: To be honest, I haven't seen any obvious connections between 17 00:01:10,725 --> 00:01:12,045 Speaker 2: these children in East Arkansas. 18 00:01:12,765 --> 00:01:13,565 Speaker 1: As we've said. 19 00:01:13,365 --> 00:01:17,285 Speaker 2: Before, these children were different ages, some were different races, 20 00:01:17,365 --> 00:01:21,365 Speaker 2: and they had very different life circumstances. The boys in 21 00:01:21,405 --> 00:01:25,685 Speaker 2: West Memphis and Guardina Cross had been brutalized, while in 22 00:01:25,765 --> 00:01:28,765 Speaker 2: Christina's case, there didn't appear to be any outward signs 23 00:01:28,765 --> 00:01:32,765 Speaker 2: of violence. So just on the surface, it does not 24 00:01:33,005 --> 00:01:35,685 Speaker 2: seem like this was the work of a single serial killer. 25 00:01:36,485 --> 00:01:40,245 Speaker 2: But there are a lot of weird coincidences in these cases. 26 00:01:40,845 --> 00:01:44,285 Speaker 2: In fact, in three of the four cases, suspects were 27 00:01:44,365 --> 00:01:48,765 Speaker 2: arrested but ultimately released. All of these children were found 28 00:01:48,805 --> 00:01:51,965 Speaker 2: in or near bodies of water, and all of them 29 00:01:52,125 --> 00:01:53,205 Speaker 2: are unsolved. 30 00:01:55,365 --> 00:01:56,485 Speaker 1: I'm Catherine Townsend. 31 00:01:57,005 --> 00:02:00,205 Speaker 2: Over the past five years of making my true crime podcast, 32 00:02:00,245 --> 00:02:03,045 Speaker 2: Helling Gone, I've learned that there is no such thing 33 00:02:03,165 --> 00:02:06,925 Speaker 2: as a small town where murder never happens. I've received 34 00:02:07,005 --> 00:02:10,365 Speaker 2: hundreds of messages from people all around the country asking 35 00:02:10,405 --> 00:02:13,965 Speaker 2: for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, 36 00:02:14,005 --> 00:02:14,965 Speaker 2: and their communities. 37 00:02:15,605 --> 00:02:17,405 Speaker 1: If you have a case you'd like me and. 38 00:02:17,405 --> 00:02:19,685 Speaker 2: My team to look into, you can reach out to 39 00:02:19,765 --> 00:02:22,405 Speaker 2: us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven 40 00:02:22,445 --> 00:02:26,245 Speaker 2: eight seven four four six one four five. That's six 41 00:02:26,325 --> 00:02:31,005 Speaker 2: seven eight seven four four six one four five. This 42 00:02:31,205 --> 00:03:18,965 Speaker 2: is Helen Gone Murder Line. I'm making my way through 43 00:03:19,085 --> 00:03:21,645 Speaker 2: all these freedom of information requests I've done over the 44 00:03:21,685 --> 00:03:25,325 Speaker 2: past few weeks. Obviously, we have Christina Pipkins case file, 45 00:03:25,405 --> 00:03:29,125 Speaker 2: though there do appear to be some documents missing, including 46 00:03:29,205 --> 00:03:33,085 Speaker 2: crime scene photos. The Arkansas State Police told me they 47 00:03:33,245 --> 00:03:36,605 Speaker 2: believe the Geneva Smith case is still open, so they 48 00:03:36,605 --> 00:03:39,045 Speaker 2: were not able to provide me with any information from 49 00:03:39,045 --> 00:03:43,445 Speaker 2: that case file. And they weren't able to find Guardiana 50 00:03:43,525 --> 00:03:46,605 Speaker 2: Cross's case at all. They said they had no record 51 00:03:46,645 --> 00:03:49,605 Speaker 2: of it at the Arkansas State Police. Now, this could 52 00:03:49,725 --> 00:03:51,765 Speaker 2: just mean that this case file is with the county. 53 00:03:52,285 --> 00:03:54,965 Speaker 2: I filed a request in Cross County and I'll let 54 00:03:54,965 --> 00:03:58,685 Speaker 2: you all know what happens. But even though the circumstances 55 00:03:58,725 --> 00:04:02,125 Speaker 2: of all these children's deaths were so different, I want 56 00:04:02,165 --> 00:04:04,685 Speaker 2: to take a look at some of the seemingly odd 57 00:04:04,725 --> 00:04:10,765 Speaker 2: similarities in Christina Pipkins's case. Remembered there was a suspect, 58 00:04:11,005 --> 00:04:15,285 Speaker 2: Robbie Tubbs. He was arrested years later in nineteen ninety nine, 59 00:04:15,885 --> 00:04:18,325 Speaker 2: and then he was later released due to some pretty 60 00:04:18,365 --> 00:04:24,365 Speaker 2: catastrophic mistakes with the hair fiber evidence that was found. 61 00:04:25,245 --> 00:04:28,525 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety two, Geneva Smith was thirteen years old. 62 00:04:29,005 --> 00:04:31,005 Speaker 2: She left home to get on the school bus and 63 00:04:31,045 --> 00:04:34,405 Speaker 2: she never came back. A few days later, Her body 64 00:04:34,485 --> 00:04:37,725 Speaker 2: was found floating in the Saint Francis River. Her remains 65 00:04:37,805 --> 00:04:40,565 Speaker 2: were badly decomposed, so much that it was hard to 66 00:04:40,605 --> 00:04:41,325 Speaker 2: identify her. 67 00:04:42,605 --> 00:04:44,365 Speaker 1: I was struck by the fact that there. 68 00:04:44,285 --> 00:04:48,205 Speaker 2: Is very little about Genevas Smith's murder out there. The 69 00:04:48,205 --> 00:04:51,605 Speaker 2: theories about who killed her if you look on online forums, 70 00:04:52,085 --> 00:04:54,725 Speaker 2: ranged from a serial killer to the KKK to a 71 00:04:54,765 --> 00:04:58,005 Speaker 2: member of her extended family. Basically, it's a mixed bag 72 00:04:58,045 --> 00:05:01,685 Speaker 2: and no one seems to have any real answers. There 73 00:05:01,965 --> 00:05:05,205 Speaker 2: was an arrest in Geneva's case, but like in Christina 74 00:05:05,205 --> 00:05:08,045 Speaker 2: pipk case, the arrest came years later. 75 00:05:08,965 --> 00:05:10,725 Speaker 1: In November of nineteen ninety nine. 76 00:05:10,765 --> 00:05:13,285 Speaker 2: The same year when police were building a case against 77 00:05:13,405 --> 00:05:18,045 Speaker 2: Robbie Tubbs for Christina Pipkins murder, two men named Johnny 78 00:05:18,125 --> 00:05:21,565 Speaker 2: Key and Freddie Jones were arrested and charged with Geneva 79 00:05:21,605 --> 00:05:25,485 Speaker 2: Smith's murder. Police did not say much at the time, 80 00:05:25,525 --> 00:05:28,445 Speaker 2: but apparently the case depended on the cooperation of a 81 00:05:28,525 --> 00:05:33,125 Speaker 2: key witness. I found this from a local newspaper back 82 00:05:33,165 --> 00:05:36,605 Speaker 2: in the day. It read quote Freddy Jones, twenty six 83 00:05:36,685 --> 00:05:40,285 Speaker 2: of Earl and Johnny Key thirty six of Parkin appeared 84 00:05:40,325 --> 00:05:43,165 Speaker 2: before Judge Richard L. Proctor on Monday and were bound 85 00:05:43,165 --> 00:05:46,445 Speaker 2: over to Cross County Circuit Court to stand trial on 86 00:05:46,445 --> 00:05:49,765 Speaker 2: one count of capital murder. The article goes on to 87 00:05:49,805 --> 00:05:54,045 Speaker 2: say Sheriff Ronnie Baldwin said Rinne page twenty two of 88 00:05:54,125 --> 00:05:57,605 Speaker 2: when was also arraigned on a charge of hindering apprehension 89 00:05:57,685 --> 00:06:00,805 Speaker 2: of a suspect in connection with the Smith case. She 90 00:06:00,965 --> 00:06:03,525 Speaker 2: was being held in the Cross County jail Monday on 91 00:06:03,645 --> 00:06:07,245 Speaker 2: unrelated charges when she was arrested in connection with the murder. 92 00:06:07,565 --> 00:06:12,005 Speaker 1: End quote. So the newspaper. 93 00:06:11,405 --> 00:06:14,725 Speaker 2: Brings up two male suspects and one female who they 94 00:06:14,765 --> 00:06:18,685 Speaker 2: believed were involved in Geneva Smith's murder. The newspaper also 95 00:06:18,925 --> 00:06:23,285 Speaker 2: talked to the sheriff, and the article mentioned that the 96 00:06:23,285 --> 00:06:25,765 Speaker 2: sheriff said that he had worked with the Arkansas State 97 00:06:25,805 --> 00:06:30,605 Speaker 2: Police investigator Dale Arnold. Remember that's the same investigator who 98 00:06:30,645 --> 00:06:34,445 Speaker 2: also worked on Christina Pipkins's case. The sheriff said that 99 00:06:34,605 --> 00:06:37,885 Speaker 2: he and Dale Arnold felt they finally had enough information 100 00:06:38,005 --> 00:06:41,565 Speaker 2: to make some arrest and the article said that all 101 00:06:41,765 --> 00:06:45,685 Speaker 2: three of these suspects, Johnny Key, Freddie Jones, and Irene Page, 102 00:06:46,165 --> 00:06:48,885 Speaker 2: had all been interviewed by police back in nineteen ninety two, 103 00:06:48,925 --> 00:06:54,565 Speaker 2: when Genevasmith originally went missing. Police seemed fairly confident that 104 00:06:54,565 --> 00:06:58,885 Speaker 2: they had a case, but then something happened. Apparently their 105 00:06:58,965 --> 00:07:03,205 Speaker 2: key witness had a change of heart. The sheriff, Ronnie Baldwin, 106 00:07:03,605 --> 00:07:07,525 Speaker 2: later confirmed this. He told the newspaper the case had 107 00:07:07,525 --> 00:07:13,725 Speaker 2: fallen apart when that witness backed out. So I'm wondering 108 00:07:13,725 --> 00:07:17,005 Speaker 2: about the woman who was arrested. If she was the 109 00:07:17,005 --> 00:07:19,685 Speaker 2: witness and was twenty two years old in nineteen ninety nine, 110 00:07:20,405 --> 00:07:22,485 Speaker 2: that would mean that she would have been around sixteen 111 00:07:22,565 --> 00:07:25,925 Speaker 2: years old, just three years older than Geneva back when 112 00:07:26,005 --> 00:07:30,485 Speaker 2: Geneva was killed. So now I'm wondering who was this woman? 113 00:07:30,565 --> 00:07:34,085 Speaker 2: What was her connection to Geneva Smith? And it's been 114 00:07:34,165 --> 00:07:37,645 Speaker 2: years since these suspects were questioned and later released. Is 115 00:07:37,725 --> 00:07:40,765 Speaker 2: law enforcement planning on building that case any further? Have 116 00:07:40,845 --> 00:07:44,045 Speaker 2: they developed any new suspects, Do they have any new 117 00:07:44,125 --> 00:07:46,925 Speaker 2: leads at all? And if not, would they consider turning 118 00:07:46,965 --> 00:07:49,605 Speaker 2: over this case file and making it public like they 119 00:07:49,645 --> 00:07:53,245 Speaker 2: have with Christina Pipkin's case. I am not sure what 120 00:07:53,405 --> 00:07:56,445 Speaker 2: the decision will be in Geneva Smith's case. I do 121 00:07:56,605 --> 00:07:59,925 Speaker 2: know Arkansas has made new rules to classify cases as 122 00:07:59,965 --> 00:08:03,325 Speaker 2: officially cold when they've been unsolved for two years or more, 123 00:08:04,085 --> 00:08:06,685 Speaker 2: maybe they will release of the case file. I do 124 00:08:06,765 --> 00:08:10,885 Speaker 2: hope they'll consider it because in Christina's case it has helped. 125 00:08:11,805 --> 00:08:12,565 Speaker 1: I've only been. 126 00:08:12,445 --> 00:08:14,485 Speaker 2: Working on this case for a few weeks, and even 127 00:08:14,525 --> 00:08:18,085 Speaker 2: though it has been almost thirty years since Christina Pipkin 128 00:08:18,125 --> 00:08:20,765 Speaker 2: went missing and her body was found, We've been able 129 00:08:20,765 --> 00:08:23,725 Speaker 2: to find a lot of people who've never been interviewed 130 00:08:23,765 --> 00:08:26,245 Speaker 2: by the police. We've also gotten a lot of names 131 00:08:26,285 --> 00:08:28,045 Speaker 2: out of the case file, and we were able to 132 00:08:28,125 --> 00:08:31,285 Speaker 2: find a lot of them. As a result of that, 133 00:08:31,365 --> 00:08:34,285 Speaker 2: we are filling in the blanks. I would love to 134 00:08:34,325 --> 00:08:36,645 Speaker 2: be able to do the same thing for Geneva Smith's case. 135 00:08:37,325 --> 00:08:41,325 Speaker 2: So if someone out there knows someone who knew Geneva Smith, 136 00:08:41,725 --> 00:08:45,245 Speaker 2: anyone in her family, her friends, or anyone who saw anything, 137 00:08:45,565 --> 00:08:49,405 Speaker 2: I would love to hear from these people. I did 138 00:08:49,405 --> 00:08:52,365 Speaker 2: some very preliminary online sleuthing to try and find the 139 00:08:52,405 --> 00:08:55,165 Speaker 2: people who were charged with Geneva's murder and what happened 140 00:08:55,205 --> 00:08:59,405 Speaker 2: to them. I found Freddy Jones. It wasn't too hard 141 00:08:59,485 --> 00:09:03,045 Speaker 2: because he's now in prison. Freddie Jones has a fairly 142 00:09:03,125 --> 00:09:07,925 Speaker 2: long criminal record, according to court records. In twenty seventeen, 143 00:09:08,525 --> 00:09:11,725 Speaker 2: he was sentenced to forty years for aggravated robbery of 144 00:09:11,725 --> 00:09:15,325 Speaker 2: a Valero gas station in Fayetvile. He also got an 145 00:09:15,325 --> 00:09:18,085 Speaker 2: additional five years for carrying a firearm because he was 146 00:09:18,125 --> 00:09:22,365 Speaker 2: a felon. According to court documents, this length of sentence, 147 00:09:22,405 --> 00:09:25,165 Speaker 2: which does seem very long, was due to his status 148 00:09:25,165 --> 00:09:30,885 Speaker 2: as an habitual offender. So let's go back to the 149 00:09:30,925 --> 00:09:33,405 Speaker 2: newspaper article for a minute. The one I talked about 150 00:09:33,405 --> 00:09:35,685 Speaker 2: at the top of the episode, the one that talked 151 00:09:35,685 --> 00:09:40,645 Speaker 2: about potential connections in these child death cases. The reporter 152 00:09:40,845 --> 00:09:45,165 Speaker 2: Rob Johnson talked about sixteen year old Guardina Cross, who 153 00:09:45,285 --> 00:09:49,325 Speaker 2: was murdered in nineteen ninety two. Guardina was sixteen years 154 00:09:49,365 --> 00:09:52,365 Speaker 2: old and in tenth grade at Wyn High School on 155 00:09:52,405 --> 00:09:56,565 Speaker 2: October fourteenth, nineteen ninety two. She disappeared that same day 156 00:09:56,685 --> 00:09:59,685 Speaker 2: on Moore Road, right outside of when a guy was 157 00:09:59,725 --> 00:10:02,885 Speaker 2: collecting cans. When he found her body on the side 158 00:10:02,925 --> 00:10:06,285 Speaker 2: of the road. Guardina was naked except for a bra. 159 00:10:07,565 --> 00:10:11,365 Speaker 2: Her skull had been pierced and punctured with a small object. 160 00:10:11,925 --> 00:10:15,165 Speaker 2: Police thought it could be some type of tool, maybe 161 00:10:15,205 --> 00:10:19,285 Speaker 2: something like a screwdriver. Forensic testing later revealed that at 162 00:10:19,325 --> 00:10:23,285 Speaker 2: the time of her death, Guardina was around five months pregnant, 163 00:10:24,885 --> 00:10:27,805 Speaker 2: and then there were crickets. There was nothing more that 164 00:10:27,845 --> 00:10:31,925 Speaker 2: I could find really ever reported about this case, but 165 00:10:32,005 --> 00:10:35,045 Speaker 2: I think the reporter Rob Johnson got some crucial information. 166 00:10:35,805 --> 00:10:39,965 Speaker 2: He went to interview Guardinia's great grandmother, Hattie Cross. He 167 00:10:40,045 --> 00:10:43,165 Speaker 2: found out that Guardina already had a two year old daughter. 168 00:10:43,805 --> 00:10:47,645 Speaker 2: That means that Guardinia's daughter must have been born around 169 00:10:47,725 --> 00:10:51,725 Speaker 2: the time Guardinia was around fourteen years old. He was 170 00:10:51,765 --> 00:10:54,125 Speaker 2: also the person who reported that she was five months 171 00:10:54,125 --> 00:10:57,485 Speaker 2: pregnant at the time for death. Now, I don't want 172 00:10:57,525 --> 00:11:00,565 Speaker 2: to rush to conclusions. The killer could have been a stranger. 173 00:11:00,645 --> 00:11:03,765 Speaker 2: This could have been a random attack. But we also 174 00:11:03,965 --> 00:11:07,285 Speaker 2: know that sadly, pregnancy can be one of the most 175 00:11:07,365 --> 00:11:10,925 Speaker 2: dangerous times of a woman's life. One of the leading 176 00:11:11,045 --> 00:11:14,285 Speaker 2: cause of death of pregnant women in America is homicide. 177 00:11:14,765 --> 00:11:17,205 Speaker 2: So I want to know where that baby's father is, 178 00:11:18,125 --> 00:11:21,925 Speaker 2: if that person was ever questioned, Maybe there was someone 179 00:11:21,965 --> 00:11:23,885 Speaker 2: who was not happy about her pregnancy. 180 00:11:23,925 --> 00:11:25,725 Speaker 1: And these are all things that we have to consider. 181 00:11:31,325 --> 00:11:34,325 Speaker 2: Coming back to the Christina Pipkin case, I've been going 182 00:11:34,325 --> 00:11:36,285 Speaker 2: through the case file and trying to reach out to 183 00:11:36,285 --> 00:11:40,885 Speaker 2: people the police interviewed, and when I did, as you 184 00:11:41,005 --> 00:11:44,365 Speaker 2: probably already know, there were a lot of discrepancies, not 185 00:11:44,445 --> 00:11:47,005 Speaker 2: only that I saw something in this case I've never 186 00:11:47,045 --> 00:11:51,765 Speaker 2: had happened before in anything I've ever investigated. One of 187 00:11:51,765 --> 00:11:54,285 Speaker 2: the biggest issues we've had in trying to review this 188 00:11:54,365 --> 00:11:56,605 Speaker 2: case file is the fact that basically none of the 189 00:11:56,645 --> 00:12:00,685 Speaker 2: interviews were transcribed. Everything is just these brief, typed reports, 190 00:12:01,445 --> 00:12:04,525 Speaker 2: So there are a lot of mistakes in those. I've 191 00:12:04,565 --> 00:12:08,925 Speaker 2: seen errors and police reports before, but I've seen mistakes 192 00:12:08,925 --> 00:12:13,165 Speaker 2: in Christina's case unlike anything I've ever seen. In our 193 00:12:13,245 --> 00:12:17,165 Speaker 2: last episode, I talked to Donna King. Now in the 194 00:12:17,365 --> 00:12:20,765 Speaker 2: case file, there is a police report where an investigator 195 00:12:20,845 --> 00:12:24,045 Speaker 2: said he spoke to Donna King. She told them that 196 00:12:24,205 --> 00:12:27,725 Speaker 2: on the night Christina Pipkin went missing, she saw Charles 197 00:12:27,765 --> 00:12:30,645 Speaker 2: Cotton's wife, Rebecca Cotton, walking on the side of the 198 00:12:30,725 --> 00:12:32,965 Speaker 2: road and that Charles Cotton was approaching her on a 199 00:12:33,005 --> 00:12:37,885 Speaker 2: three wheeler. This was a very detailed description of what happened. Apparently, 200 00:12:38,045 --> 00:12:42,525 Speaker 2: according to police, Donna said she observed Rebecca Cotton crying, 201 00:12:43,205 --> 00:12:46,085 Speaker 2: looking annoyed at Charles and not getting on the three Wheeler. 202 00:12:46,605 --> 00:12:49,125 Speaker 2: Then Charles Cotton apparently left and came. 203 00:12:48,965 --> 00:12:49,765 Speaker 1: Back in a vehicle. 204 00:12:50,605 --> 00:12:53,765 Speaker 2: This was a few minutes later, and he picked Rebecca 205 00:12:53,805 --> 00:12:58,285 Speaker 2: Cotton up and they left together in the car. The 206 00:12:58,325 --> 00:13:02,685 Speaker 2: only problem is Donna King said that this was absolutely 207 00:13:02,805 --> 00:13:05,445 Speaker 2: not what she said to the police. She is insistent 208 00:13:05,605 --> 00:13:08,365 Speaker 2: that she never saw Rebecca Cotton on the night Christina 209 00:13:08,365 --> 00:13:12,645 Speaker 2: Pipkin went missing. Donna King said that part of the 210 00:13:12,725 --> 00:13:16,165 Speaker 2: story was correct. She was out of town that day. 211 00:13:16,245 --> 00:13:18,365 Speaker 2: She and her husband had gone to Memphis, but she 212 00:13:18,485 --> 00:13:20,365 Speaker 2: said as soon as she got back in town, she 213 00:13:20,445 --> 00:13:23,205 Speaker 2: met up with a friend of hers. The friend of 214 00:13:23,285 --> 00:13:26,125 Speaker 2: Donna's who she met up with is actually someone else 215 00:13:26,125 --> 00:13:30,285 Speaker 2: we've spoken to. There were two cashiers at the Bearcat 216 00:13:30,325 --> 00:13:31,005 Speaker 2: who we've. 217 00:13:30,765 --> 00:13:31,605 Speaker 1: Talked to so far. 218 00:13:32,485 --> 00:13:36,365 Speaker 2: The woman i'll call cashier number one served the mysterious 219 00:13:36,405 --> 00:13:38,965 Speaker 2: stranger who came in at around five forty five. She's 220 00:13:39,005 --> 00:13:42,325 Speaker 2: the one who worked on the composite drawing with police. 221 00:13:42,445 --> 00:13:45,085 Speaker 2: There was another cashier, we'll call her a cashier number 222 00:13:45,085 --> 00:13:48,965 Speaker 2: two now cashier too was working in the back section 223 00:13:49,005 --> 00:13:51,965 Speaker 2: of the store where the video rentals happened for most 224 00:13:51,965 --> 00:13:54,445 Speaker 2: of the night, but between seven and nine pm she 225 00:13:54,605 --> 00:13:59,325 Speaker 2: worked the main register. After Donna came back to town, she 226 00:13:59,485 --> 00:14:03,925 Speaker 2: met up with Cashier number two. Together, they rode around 227 00:14:04,005 --> 00:14:07,165 Speaker 2: and looked for Christina Pipkin, and they both confirmed each 228 00:14:07,165 --> 00:14:07,885 Speaker 2: other's stories. 229 00:14:07,925 --> 00:14:10,565 Speaker 1: They said they never saw Rebecca Cotton that night. 230 00:14:11,805 --> 00:14:15,005 Speaker 2: When I asked Donna what she thinks happened, she believes 231 00:14:15,005 --> 00:14:17,885 Speaker 2: that maybe the police officers got her story mixed up 232 00:14:17,925 --> 00:14:24,085 Speaker 2: with someone else's. This sounds crazy, but it's actually not 233 00:14:24,125 --> 00:14:28,085 Speaker 2: that hard to believe, because even more disturbing than the 234 00:14:28,125 --> 00:14:31,325 Speaker 2: wrong information Donna said the police included in that report 235 00:14:31,925 --> 00:14:35,205 Speaker 2: was what she said they left out. Donna said that 236 00:14:35,285 --> 00:14:38,645 Speaker 2: the next day after Christina went missing, she saw a 237 00:14:38,685 --> 00:14:42,725 Speaker 2: stranger in a brown car near the area where Christina's 238 00:14:42,725 --> 00:14:46,605 Speaker 2: body was found. She is adamant, she said she described 239 00:14:46,645 --> 00:14:49,445 Speaker 2: that person and that vehicle to the police, But there's 240 00:14:49,565 --> 00:14:52,405 Speaker 2: no record of that brown car anywhere. 241 00:14:51,925 --> 00:14:56,485 Speaker 1: In the case file. So the question is where did 242 00:14:56,525 --> 00:14:57,405 Speaker 1: the police get. 243 00:14:57,285 --> 00:15:00,685 Speaker 2: The information about the person who supposedly saw Rebecca Cotton 244 00:15:00,725 --> 00:15:02,885 Speaker 2: on the side of the road that night, And if 245 00:15:02,885 --> 00:15:15,765 Speaker 2: that person wasn't Donna King, who who was it. In 246 00:15:15,805 --> 00:15:19,045 Speaker 2: the last episode, we talked about a couple of the 247 00:15:19,165 --> 00:15:22,765 Speaker 2: names who keep coming up in this case and I 248 00:15:22,805 --> 00:15:24,645 Speaker 2: want to give you all an update. We have gotten 249 00:15:24,725 --> 00:15:28,005 Speaker 2: more information about a friend of Robbie Tubbs, the man 250 00:15:28,125 --> 00:15:31,605 Speaker 2: named Jackie. The person who I referred to is Jackie 251 00:15:31,685 --> 00:15:34,005 Speaker 2: question Mark in last week's episode. Because we didn't know 252 00:15:34,045 --> 00:15:37,685 Speaker 2: his last name, we were able to get his last name. 253 00:15:38,205 --> 00:15:40,925 Speaker 2: I've been exchanging messages with a couple of different young 254 00:15:41,005 --> 00:15:44,845 Speaker 2: women who told me that Jackie was, in their words, 255 00:15:44,885 --> 00:15:47,565 Speaker 2: creepy and that he made her and several other young 256 00:15:47,605 --> 00:15:48,925 Speaker 2: women very uncomfortable. 257 00:15:49,885 --> 00:15:51,565 Speaker 1: I wanted to track Jackie down. 258 00:15:52,045 --> 00:15:54,765 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask him questions about Robbie Tubbs and 259 00:15:54,845 --> 00:15:56,525 Speaker 2: about what went on around the time. 260 00:15:56,405 --> 00:15:57,525 Speaker 1: When Christina went missing. 261 00:15:58,245 --> 00:16:01,005 Speaker 2: I wanted to know word Jackie and Robbie in or 262 00:16:01,085 --> 00:16:04,805 Speaker 2: near Hickory Ridge that day. But I found out that 263 00:16:04,925 --> 00:16:06,925 Speaker 2: Jackie passed away in two thousand and eight. 264 00:16:07,405 --> 00:16:09,605 Speaker 1: Sadly, this is another dead end. 265 00:16:15,845 --> 00:16:19,045 Speaker 2: The second cashier at the Bearcat who we talked to 266 00:16:19,125 --> 00:16:22,885 Speaker 2: in the last episode, told us about the fear and 267 00:16:23,005 --> 00:16:25,965 Speaker 2: panic that broke out in the town after Christina went missing. 268 00:16:26,525 --> 00:16:29,805 Speaker 1: She described what the atmosphere was like the next day. 269 00:16:30,485 --> 00:16:35,525 Speaker 3: I'm at work at twelve at Bearcat, and it was 270 00:16:35,685 --> 00:16:47,325 Speaker 3: just horrific. Seeing it was horrific and how that awesome 271 00:16:47,605 --> 00:16:52,405 Speaker 3: at the sun time that so many people we're there, 272 00:16:52,205 --> 00:16:54,725 Speaker 3: we're on the street, we're in the parking lot, we're 273 00:16:54,845 --> 00:16:57,685 Speaker 3: you know, gathered together to try to you know, set 274 00:16:57,765 --> 00:17:00,965 Speaker 3: up teams. You know, the community really came together. 275 00:17:02,205 --> 00:17:04,805 Speaker 2: And she noticed the same thing that I noticed. She 276 00:17:04,925 --> 00:17:07,765 Speaker 2: noticed that Arles Cotton seemed to have been very involved 277 00:17:07,805 --> 00:17:10,845 Speaker 2: in the search for Christina Pipkins. She also found it 278 00:17:10,845 --> 00:17:13,445 Speaker 2: out she said he wasn't someone who appeared to know 279 00:17:13,525 --> 00:17:17,685 Speaker 2: the family well, and James had said he just met 280 00:17:17,765 --> 00:17:19,165 Speaker 2: Charles Cotton through his neighbors. 281 00:17:20,645 --> 00:17:23,645 Speaker 3: She may un I mean, I thought, is he really 282 00:17:23,645 --> 00:17:27,445 Speaker 3: trying to make an incrusion? And it was just like 283 00:17:27,565 --> 00:17:29,205 Speaker 3: gloved to the family, it seemed like. 284 00:17:30,125 --> 00:17:34,965 Speaker 4: And I was just like, you know, of course we 285 00:17:34,965 --> 00:17:40,245 Speaker 4: were all wanting to search and look absolutely, but I 286 00:17:40,285 --> 00:17:41,245 Speaker 4: mean then. 287 00:17:41,125 --> 00:17:45,245 Speaker 3: I you know, Candles came down, there was a lot 288 00:17:45,285 --> 00:17:47,525 Speaker 3: of publisty. 289 00:17:47,485 --> 00:17:49,205 Speaker 4: And I just put it as you know, he was 290 00:17:49,285 --> 00:17:50,125 Speaker 4: just wanting attention. 291 00:17:50,765 --> 00:17:53,645 Speaker 3: And I didn't really, you know, think king much more 292 00:17:53,685 --> 00:17:54,005 Speaker 3: about it. 293 00:17:56,525 --> 00:18:00,125 Speaker 2: With help from some sources in town, I have mapped 294 00:18:00,165 --> 00:18:03,805 Speaker 2: out the rest of Christina's neighborhood and there are other 295 00:18:03,885 --> 00:18:08,565 Speaker 2: people who I would like to locate. I have verified 296 00:18:08,565 --> 00:18:11,165 Speaker 2: through multiple sources who were living in the neighborhood at 297 00:18:11,165 --> 00:18:15,125 Speaker 2: the time, that Charles Cotton and his family were, contrary 298 00:18:15,125 --> 00:18:17,885 Speaker 2: to what his wife Rebecca told the police, living in 299 00:18:17,925 --> 00:18:20,205 Speaker 2: a house just a couple of doors down from the Pipkins. 300 00:18:22,245 --> 00:18:25,765 Speaker 2: There was also another young family there. They lived in 301 00:18:25,805 --> 00:18:29,005 Speaker 2: a trailer, They had several children, and according to the neighbors, 302 00:18:29,045 --> 00:18:32,205 Speaker 2: they were only there for a few months. Apparently the 303 00:18:32,245 --> 00:18:35,085 Speaker 2: family was from around Beadeville, the area and near where 304 00:18:35,125 --> 00:18:39,125 Speaker 2: Christina's body was found. Now people say this family was 305 00:18:39,165 --> 00:18:41,365 Speaker 2: not around for a long time. They weren't sure of 306 00:18:41,365 --> 00:18:43,965 Speaker 2: the exact dates. But I would like to know who 307 00:18:44,005 --> 00:18:45,725 Speaker 2: those people were, and I would like to talk to 308 00:18:45,765 --> 00:18:49,405 Speaker 2: them because if they left abruptly after Christina went missing, 309 00:18:50,325 --> 00:18:53,165 Speaker 2: that's something we need to check out. We know from 310 00:18:53,285 --> 00:18:56,005 Speaker 2: past cases that people who show up in town and 311 00:18:56,125 --> 00:18:59,525 Speaker 2: leave shortly after a suspicious death need to be thoroughly vetted. 312 00:19:00,485 --> 00:19:03,085 Speaker 2: And I want to go back and ask something that 313 00:19:03,205 --> 00:19:06,925 Speaker 2: may seem obvious, But since part of this is investigating 314 00:19:06,925 --> 00:19:10,565 Speaker 2: the investigation itself, we have to double check everything. 315 00:19:11,045 --> 00:19:11,845 Speaker 1: We need to know. 316 00:19:13,085 --> 00:19:17,645 Speaker 2: How can we be sure that Christina Pipkin drowned and 317 00:19:17,725 --> 00:19:20,405 Speaker 2: how can we be sure that it was definitely not 318 00:19:20,565 --> 00:19:28,245 Speaker 2: an accidental drowning. I want to take a step back 319 00:19:28,245 --> 00:19:30,365 Speaker 2: for a minute, because there's been a lot of discussion 320 00:19:30,725 --> 00:19:33,325 Speaker 2: during Christina's case about what we can learn from the 321 00:19:33,365 --> 00:19:36,645 Speaker 2: limited facts we have without an autopsy report. 322 00:19:37,525 --> 00:19:39,005 Speaker 1: So let's talk about drowning. 323 00:19:39,965 --> 00:19:43,805 Speaker 2: According to report on NBC News, deaths by drowning are 324 00:19:43,925 --> 00:19:47,365 Speaker 2: super challenging. They're among the hardest for investigators to prove. 325 00:19:48,325 --> 00:19:51,085 Speaker 2: The way that medical examiners figure out that a death 326 00:19:51,205 --> 00:19:54,365 Speaker 2: is by drowning is basically by the process of elimination. 327 00:19:55,125 --> 00:19:59,365 Speaker 2: They have to rule out everything else. A lot of 328 00:19:59,525 --> 00:20:03,285 Speaker 2: children drowned in the United States every year. According to 329 00:20:03,325 --> 00:20:05,845 Speaker 2: a twenty twenty three article in The New Yorker, the 330 00:20:05,885 --> 00:20:09,205 Speaker 2: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has listed drowning as 331 00:20:09,245 --> 00:20:12,205 Speaker 2: the number one cause of death for young children, which 332 00:20:12,245 --> 00:20:15,885 Speaker 2: they define is age one to four, and Arkansas has 333 00:20:15,925 --> 00:20:19,005 Speaker 2: one of the highest rates of childhood drowning in the country, 334 00:20:19,405 --> 00:20:22,085 Speaker 2: according to a study done by Quote Wizard, the third 335 00:20:22,205 --> 00:20:26,445 Speaker 2: highest in the nation. Between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty, 336 00:20:26,765 --> 00:20:31,005 Speaker 2: there were twenty five fatal drownings in Arkansas. Thirteen of 337 00:20:31,045 --> 00:20:36,325 Speaker 2: those were children under the age of five. So how 338 00:20:36,365 --> 00:20:38,765 Speaker 2: do we know if a body found in water did 339 00:20:38,845 --> 00:20:42,325 Speaker 2: drown and if that drowning was intentional or accidental? 340 00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:45,485 Speaker 1: In water, bodies tend to sink. 341 00:20:45,325 --> 00:20:48,525 Speaker 2: First and then rise to the surface in warm, shallow 342 00:20:48,565 --> 00:20:51,645 Speaker 2: water like at Cawlake Ditch as gases in the body 343 00:20:51,645 --> 00:20:55,645 Speaker 2: accumulated from the decomposition process. This would have taken around 344 00:20:55,645 --> 00:21:00,085 Speaker 2: seventy two hours. Christina's body was found three days after 345 00:21:00,125 --> 00:21:04,285 Speaker 2: she went missing. Water investigations have come a long way 346 00:21:04,325 --> 00:21:07,885 Speaker 2: in the past three decades. Now there are training seminars 347 00:21:08,405 --> 00:21:12,605 Speaker 2: for investigators who are processing homicides that involve a body 348 00:21:12,605 --> 00:21:16,285 Speaker 2: of water. There are a few different types of scenarios 349 00:21:16,285 --> 00:21:19,045 Speaker 2: that can occur here. You have people who are killed 350 00:21:19,085 --> 00:21:21,205 Speaker 2: on land and then dumped into the water as they 351 00:21:21,205 --> 00:21:24,605 Speaker 2: are dead or dying, people who actually drowned in the 352 00:21:24,645 --> 00:21:27,845 Speaker 2: body of water, and accidental drownings, and they all have 353 00:21:28,005 --> 00:21:32,885 Speaker 2: some distinctive characteristics. We know that Christina could have accidentally 354 00:21:32,965 --> 00:21:34,565 Speaker 2: drowned because she couldn't swim. 355 00:21:34,605 --> 00:21:35,685 Speaker 1: That would have made sense. 356 00:21:36,565 --> 00:21:40,285 Speaker 2: But the first question homicide investigators are told to ask 357 00:21:40,805 --> 00:21:43,805 Speaker 2: is if the victim's location makes sense, and in Christina's case, 358 00:21:43,885 --> 00:21:46,645 Speaker 2: it did not. It made zero sense that she would 359 00:21:46,685 --> 00:21:49,845 Speaker 2: suddenly be miles away from home right before dark when 360 00:21:49,885 --> 00:21:52,525 Speaker 2: she had been hanging around very close to her house 361 00:21:52,565 --> 00:21:58,525 Speaker 2: all day. But even though crime scene investigation techniques are improving, 362 00:21:59,685 --> 00:22:03,205 Speaker 2: killers can still have a lot of evidence in pools 363 00:22:03,245 --> 00:22:08,925 Speaker 2: of dirty water. I use a textbook for all of 364 00:22:08,925 --> 00:22:12,085 Speaker 2: my investigations. I carried it around everywhere with me, so 365 00:22:12,125 --> 00:22:15,245 Speaker 2: at this point it's kind of falling apart. But it's 366 00:22:15,325 --> 00:22:19,405 Speaker 2: called Practical Homicide Investigations. I've talked about it before. It's 367 00:22:19,445 --> 00:22:23,645 Speaker 2: by a former NYPD homicide detective named Vernon Gabirth. It's 368 00:22:23,685 --> 00:22:27,685 Speaker 2: become the textbook that a lot of police departments used 369 00:22:27,685 --> 00:22:33,125 Speaker 2: to train their detectives. In this book, he describes a 370 00:22:33,125 --> 00:22:36,045 Speaker 2: lot of staged crime scenes involving drowning, and he has 371 00:22:36,045 --> 00:22:39,325 Speaker 2: a lot of examples summer cases where the victim was 372 00:22:39,405 --> 00:22:42,645 Speaker 2: drowned elsewhere like a bathtub, and then taken and dumped 373 00:22:42,645 --> 00:22:45,365 Speaker 2: into the body of water. Remember, a lot of people 374 00:22:45,405 --> 00:22:47,925 Speaker 2: thought this was what could have happened to Christina Pipkin, 375 00:22:48,765 --> 00:22:51,525 Speaker 2: But we know the evidence in Christina's case indicates the 376 00:22:51,605 --> 00:22:55,565 Speaker 2: mud and water found in Christina's lungs did match. 377 00:22:55,285 --> 00:22:56,645 Speaker 1: The water in cal Lake ditch. 378 00:22:57,605 --> 00:23:00,165 Speaker 2: I've also talked to a family member and this person 379 00:23:00,325 --> 00:23:04,805 Speaker 2: is attempting to access Christina's autopsy report. I hope that 380 00:23:04,845 --> 00:23:07,325 Speaker 2: we can get access to that because there are a 381 00:23:07,325 --> 00:23:11,245 Speaker 2: lot of things I think we could potentially learn. Among 382 00:23:11,245 --> 00:23:13,845 Speaker 2: the questions I have are these. I want to know 383 00:23:13,885 --> 00:23:17,245 Speaker 2: if there was any white foam present. It's called haemorrhagic 384 00:23:17,405 --> 00:23:21,725 Speaker 2: edema fluid. This foam forms as a result of mucus 385 00:23:21,765 --> 00:23:25,285 Speaker 2: from the throat mixing with water and blood. It's a 386 00:23:25,325 --> 00:23:28,565 Speaker 2: major indication the person may have drowned, and we don't 387 00:23:28,605 --> 00:23:31,725 Speaker 2: know from doctor Fawmi Malik the medical examiner's report if 388 00:23:31,725 --> 00:23:32,485 Speaker 2: that was present. 389 00:23:33,725 --> 00:23:34,285 Speaker 1: We do know. 390 00:23:34,365 --> 00:23:37,045 Speaker 2: Doctor Malik said there were no signs of violence. He 391 00:23:37,085 --> 00:23:39,845 Speaker 2: said he didn't find signs of a struggle, no bruising, 392 00:23:40,165 --> 00:23:44,325 Speaker 2: no obvious signs of strangulation, nothing to show, for example, 393 00:23:44,365 --> 00:23:46,525 Speaker 2: that someone held her head under water forcibly. 394 00:23:47,445 --> 00:23:49,365 Speaker 1: But maybe there are other clues in the. 395 00:23:49,405 --> 00:23:51,845 Speaker 2: Report, something that could tell us if she had less 396 00:23:51,845 --> 00:23:55,445 Speaker 2: obvious signs, like the broken blood vessels, that could be 397 00:23:55,485 --> 00:23:56,645 Speaker 2: indicative of strangulation. 398 00:23:58,085 --> 00:24:01,165 Speaker 1: Also, I would love to know did Christina have anything 399 00:24:01,165 --> 00:24:01,925 Speaker 1: in her hands. 400 00:24:02,485 --> 00:24:05,445 Speaker 2: This could tell us if she was grabbing at something, 401 00:24:05,685 --> 00:24:09,045 Speaker 2: for example, when she was in the water. If not, 402 00:24:09,445 --> 00:24:11,965 Speaker 2: this could indicate she was unconscious when she went into 403 00:24:11,965 --> 00:24:16,045 Speaker 2: the water. And I know that it's been a long time, 404 00:24:16,045 --> 00:24:19,925 Speaker 2: but don't forget sometimes major breakthroughs can be made by 405 00:24:19,925 --> 00:24:24,005 Speaker 2: a second look, even decades later. The NBC report had 406 00:24:24,005 --> 00:24:27,845 Speaker 2: an example. The news channel talked about a case from 407 00:24:27,845 --> 00:24:30,565 Speaker 2: Illinois where a woman had drowned in a bathtub and 408 00:24:30,605 --> 00:24:33,445 Speaker 2: basically there was no sign of a struggle or forced entry. 409 00:24:33,925 --> 00:24:37,605 Speaker 2: At first, it was ruled an accident, but eventually investigators 410 00:24:37,605 --> 00:24:41,165 Speaker 2: brought a new pathologist in and that person found bruises 411 00:24:41,205 --> 00:24:46,085 Speaker 2: on the victim's elbows, bruises that forensic testing had missed. Later, 412 00:24:46,325 --> 00:24:49,845 Speaker 2: police focused on this woman's husband. They were able to 413 00:24:49,885 --> 00:24:52,445 Speaker 2: find insurance policies that the husband had taken out and 414 00:24:52,525 --> 00:24:52,885 Speaker 2: his wife. 415 00:24:54,765 --> 00:24:55,885 Speaker 1: They eventually found. 416 00:24:55,685 --> 00:24:57,805 Speaker 2: A motive, but they wouldn't have even looked for that 417 00:24:57,925 --> 00:25:01,525 Speaker 2: motive if they had not first gone back over the forensics. 418 00:25:02,045 --> 00:25:04,045 Speaker 2: This is what I'm trying to do, both with the 419 00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:07,645 Speaker 2: autopsy report and with the case faul. But again, because 420 00:25:07,685 --> 00:25:11,205 Speaker 2: the police reports were so vague, I've been really struggling 421 00:25:11,485 --> 00:25:15,365 Speaker 2: with being able to verify concrete times in any part 422 00:25:15,365 --> 00:25:18,725 Speaker 2: of this report, which brings me back to the very. 423 00:25:18,605 --> 00:25:19,525 Speaker 1: Beginning of the case. 424 00:25:20,045 --> 00:25:22,485 Speaker 2: One of the only things that we have a time 425 00:25:22,565 --> 00:25:25,605 Speaker 2: for a definite time is that movie. And I've been 426 00:25:25,605 --> 00:25:28,645 Speaker 2: thinking about that movie that James Pipkin was watching since 427 00:25:28,685 --> 00:25:35,565 Speaker 2: this case started. In James's statement, he said on Saturday, 428 00:25:35,765 --> 00:25:39,765 Speaker 2: May fourth, he said that he was taping the movie 429 00:25:39,765 --> 00:25:41,845 Speaker 2: The Hunt for Red October and he was starting to 430 00:25:41,965 --> 00:25:44,885 Speaker 2: watch it while it taped, and that during that movie 431 00:25:44,925 --> 00:25:47,685 Speaker 2: he became concerned that Christina had not come home, and 432 00:25:47,685 --> 00:25:49,005 Speaker 2: that's when he started looking for her. 433 00:25:51,525 --> 00:25:52,765 Speaker 1: Let's take a step back. 434 00:25:53,245 --> 00:25:56,525 Speaker 2: Let's track everyone who said they saw Christina Pipkin for 435 00:25:56,725 --> 00:25:59,245 Speaker 2: sure that day, at least according to the police reports 436 00:25:59,245 --> 00:26:02,525 Speaker 2: in the case file, after the family came back from 437 00:26:02,565 --> 00:26:05,965 Speaker 2: their errands, Christina Pipkin was at her home on Doty 438 00:26:06,005 --> 00:26:09,325 Speaker 2: Street by around four pm. That's when the Fords, the 439 00:26:09,405 --> 00:26:12,445 Speaker 2: neighbors whose yard backed up to the Pipkins house, saw 440 00:26:12,525 --> 00:26:16,525 Speaker 2: Christina playing out in her backyard. Shortly after that, Christina 441 00:26:16,605 --> 00:26:19,245 Speaker 2: left the house to sell jewelry. She had her flyer 442 00:26:19,325 --> 00:26:21,685 Speaker 2: showing the different types of jewelry people could buy with her. 443 00:26:22,965 --> 00:26:26,165 Speaker 2: That's around when Elsie Liles, the Pipkins neighbor and the 444 00:26:26,205 --> 00:26:30,085 Speaker 2: person who sometimes babysat Christina, saw Christina and gave her 445 00:26:30,125 --> 00:26:32,965 Speaker 2: a pickle as a snack. Christina ate the pickle and 446 00:26:33,005 --> 00:26:35,765 Speaker 2: she left Elsie's house, telling Elsie she'd be back for dinner. 447 00:26:36,645 --> 00:26:42,405 Speaker 2: Elsie said Christina never showed after leaving Elsie's. During that afternoon, 448 00:26:42,765 --> 00:26:45,085 Speaker 2: Christina was walking around the area around the bear Cat 449 00:26:45,125 --> 00:26:45,605 Speaker 2: in the bank. 450 00:26:46,285 --> 00:26:48,285 Speaker 1: Again, this is a very small area. 451 00:26:48,525 --> 00:26:50,885 Speaker 2: But a lot of people were coming through the main 452 00:26:50,965 --> 00:26:53,525 Speaker 2: drag around then, because if you want to get cigarettes 453 00:26:53,605 --> 00:26:55,645 Speaker 2: or snacks, the bear Cat was pretty much the only. 454 00:26:55,525 --> 00:26:58,005 Speaker 1: Game in town. We know that. 455 00:26:58,045 --> 00:27:01,725 Speaker 2: Around five forty five pm, the first cashier we spoke to, 456 00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:03,965 Speaker 2: the one who was working the register for most of 457 00:27:03,965 --> 00:27:07,325 Speaker 2: the day, said she saw the stranger, the one who 458 00:27:07,365 --> 00:27:09,685 Speaker 2: came into the store and looked a little like Richard Gear, 459 00:27:10,325 --> 00:27:13,765 Speaker 2: the guy she later identified in a composite photo. She 460 00:27:13,925 --> 00:27:15,525 Speaker 2: said that he came in to buy a pack of 461 00:27:15,565 --> 00:27:19,925 Speaker 2: Warboro Reds. He parked his car, a brown sedan, not blue, 462 00:27:20,045 --> 00:27:22,405 Speaker 2: as the police wrote in their report, way up on 463 00:27:22,445 --> 00:27:26,205 Speaker 2: the sidewalk. Then he got in his car and left. 464 00:27:26,565 --> 00:27:28,965 Speaker 2: The cashier said the stranger came and went just a 465 00:27:29,045 --> 00:27:32,205 Speaker 2: few minutes after Christina and some other kids were walking 466 00:27:32,245 --> 00:27:33,445 Speaker 2: through milling around the. 467 00:27:33,445 --> 00:27:34,565 Speaker 1: Bear Cat grocery store. 468 00:27:36,165 --> 00:27:39,605 Speaker 2: Christina was going to and from the area right around 469 00:27:39,605 --> 00:27:43,405 Speaker 2: her house. At around five point thirty, Ricky Dawson and 470 00:27:43,445 --> 00:27:46,365 Speaker 2: his friend James Bashers, who were next door at the 471 00:27:46,405 --> 00:27:49,645 Speaker 2: Moor's house, saw Christina on the porch of her house. 472 00:27:51,085 --> 00:27:54,245 Speaker 2: By around six thirty, Christina was back at the bear Cat. 473 00:27:54,405 --> 00:27:57,645 Speaker 2: That's when her math teacher, Miss Lamb, told police that 474 00:27:57,725 --> 00:28:02,325 Speaker 2: she saw Christina and briefly talked to her sometime before dark, 475 00:28:02,365 --> 00:28:05,925 Speaker 2: which was around eight pm. The other cashier, cash or two, 476 00:28:06,485 --> 00:28:09,565 Speaker 2: the cashier we talked to, who police never interviewed, said 477 00:28:09,645 --> 00:28:11,045 Speaker 2: she saw Christina in the store. 478 00:28:11,805 --> 00:28:14,165 Speaker 1: She said she knew for sure this happened before dark. 479 00:28:14,565 --> 00:28:19,365 Speaker 2: She remembered the street lights were not on yet. Then 480 00:28:19,485 --> 00:28:25,365 Speaker 2: Christina left Frida. Christina's mom told police she went to 481 00:28:25,405 --> 00:28:28,405 Speaker 2: the Bearcat store at around seven thirty pm. She bought 482 00:28:28,405 --> 00:28:30,525 Speaker 2: some groceries, hung around for a few minutes, and then 483 00:28:30,565 --> 00:28:31,245 Speaker 2: went back home. 484 00:28:32,965 --> 00:28:34,845 Speaker 1: After she got home and started cooking dinner. 485 00:28:34,965 --> 00:28:37,885 Speaker 2: This is when James Pipkin said they started watching the 486 00:28:37,965 --> 00:28:43,325 Speaker 2: movie The Hunt for Red October. They got worried that 487 00:28:43,405 --> 00:28:46,885 Speaker 2: Christina hadn't come home, and Frida sent Christina's brother Adam 488 00:28:46,925 --> 00:28:48,925 Speaker 2: out to look for her. When Adam came back and 489 00:28:48,965 --> 00:28:51,885 Speaker 2: said he hadn't seen her, Frida left the house to 490 00:28:51,925 --> 00:28:52,405 Speaker 2: look for her. 491 00:28:53,045 --> 00:28:53,685 Speaker 1: But here's where it. 492 00:28:53,645 --> 00:28:57,085 Speaker 2: Gets interesting, because James says in the police report quote, 493 00:28:57,485 --> 00:28:59,885 Speaker 2: I got the VCR ready to tape the Hunt for 494 00:28:59,925 --> 00:29:03,405 Speaker 2: Red October. The movie came on and I started taping it. 495 00:29:03,805 --> 00:29:06,365 Speaker 2: I started getting worried that Christina had not come home yet, 496 00:29:06,605 --> 00:29:08,845 Speaker 2: so we started looking for her. This was around eight 497 00:29:08,885 --> 00:29:15,205 Speaker 2: pm end quote. This was one concrete time that we 498 00:29:15,245 --> 00:29:18,245 Speaker 2: could sort of frame everything else around. So I got 499 00:29:18,245 --> 00:29:21,725 Speaker 2: a little obsessed when figuring out what time this movie aired. 500 00:29:22,925 --> 00:29:27,325 Speaker 2: Back in the nineties, before streaming services HBO and Cinemax, 501 00:29:27,365 --> 00:29:30,605 Speaker 2: movies aired on a national schedule. It was broken into 502 00:29:30,605 --> 00:29:33,685 Speaker 2: different time zones, but basically it was exactly the same 503 00:29:33,725 --> 00:29:35,805 Speaker 2: air date around the country, so we should be able 504 00:29:35,845 --> 00:29:40,805 Speaker 2: to verify that. There's just one problem. When I found 505 00:29:40,805 --> 00:29:43,805 Speaker 2: the commercial for the movie on YouTube and an. 506 00:29:43,685 --> 00:29:46,325 Speaker 1: Old guide for Red October. 507 00:29:46,365 --> 00:29:49,685 Speaker 2: I found out that The Hunt for Red October aired 508 00:29:50,045 --> 00:29:53,645 Speaker 2: in that region on Friday night, not Saturday, the day 509 00:29:53,725 --> 00:29:58,205 Speaker 2: Christina went missing. So if that's true, James could not 510 00:29:58,405 --> 00:30:00,725 Speaker 2: have been taping The Hunt for Red October on Saturday night. 511 00:30:01,525 --> 00:30:06,765 Speaker 2: That movie aired on Friday night. He might misspoken. He 512 00:30:06,805 --> 00:30:08,885 Speaker 2: could have said he'd previously taped the movie and was 513 00:30:08,965 --> 00:30:11,885 Speaker 2: watching it on Saturday. Maybe the police were wrong, But 514 00:30:12,045 --> 00:30:15,165 Speaker 2: in that police statement he said a couple of times 515 00:30:15,205 --> 00:30:17,925 Speaker 2: he was taping the movie setting the VCR to tape 516 00:30:17,965 --> 00:30:20,725 Speaker 2: it that night. He seemed to say he was watching 517 00:30:20,725 --> 00:30:25,405 Speaker 2: the movie live as it aired. Now, maybe he's remembering 518 00:30:25,485 --> 00:30:27,005 Speaker 2: Friday night instead of Saturday night. 519 00:30:27,005 --> 00:30:28,645 Speaker 1: Getting mixed up again. 520 00:30:28,765 --> 00:30:32,125 Speaker 2: Police did not interview James for several days after Christina 521 00:30:32,165 --> 00:30:35,165 Speaker 2: went missing, But I do wonder and I would love 522 00:30:35,245 --> 00:30:45,645 Speaker 2: to clear up that discrepancy. Frida went into the Bearcat 523 00:30:45,685 --> 00:30:48,925 Speaker 2: store right before nine pm that night, and the second 524 00:30:48,925 --> 00:30:52,645 Speaker 2: cashier who we heard from earlier said she vividly remembers 525 00:30:53,165 --> 00:30:56,965 Speaker 2: Christina's mother walking into the store crying and saying she 526 00:30:56,965 --> 00:30:57,965 Speaker 2: couldn't find her daughter. 527 00:30:58,965 --> 00:31:03,405 Speaker 3: And then missus Pipton came in. She was crying and 528 00:31:03,525 --> 00:31:06,085 Speaker 3: we said, well we go and pretty much set the 529 00:31:06,165 --> 00:31:09,605 Speaker 3: registers down or they'll be glad to and said no, 530 00:31:09,645 --> 00:31:11,205 Speaker 3: I just need to use the pay phone. The pay 531 00:31:11,285 --> 00:31:14,245 Speaker 3: phone was like when you walked in the door though 532 00:31:14,525 --> 00:31:16,885 Speaker 3: you would make a right, direct right, and it was 533 00:31:16,925 --> 00:31:19,005 Speaker 3: on the wall. There was a window, and then there 534 00:31:19,045 --> 00:31:22,765 Speaker 3: was the pay phone, and then it started with the drinks. 535 00:31:23,325 --> 00:31:25,685 Speaker 3: And she ran to the phone and she called the 536 00:31:25,725 --> 00:31:29,725 Speaker 3: police and she didn't really That's when we heard or 537 00:31:29,805 --> 00:31:32,605 Speaker 3: say my little girl's missing. I was like, oh my god, 538 00:31:33,685 --> 00:31:37,045 Speaker 3: you know, we saw her just you know, a couple 539 00:31:37,045 --> 00:31:41,365 Speaker 3: of hours ago. And I don't know why no one 540 00:31:41,405 --> 00:31:44,325 Speaker 3: ever questioned me. Ever, at the time, I kept thinking 541 00:31:44,365 --> 00:31:46,325 Speaker 3: mister Arnold would come and talk to me. No one 542 00:31:46,365 --> 00:31:47,245 Speaker 3: ever questioned me. 543 00:31:49,805 --> 00:31:52,445 Speaker 2: I find it shocking that there was no police interview 544 00:31:52,445 --> 00:31:55,285 Speaker 2: with this cashier, this person who was one of the 545 00:31:55,405 --> 00:31:59,245 Speaker 2: last people to see Christina alive. There's also no interview 546 00:31:59,325 --> 00:32:02,485 Speaker 2: with the other cashier. The police report just said he 547 00:32:02,525 --> 00:32:04,565 Speaker 2: had nothing of substance to offer the investigation. 548 00:32:05,605 --> 00:32:07,485 Speaker 1: But I disagree with that. 549 00:32:08,045 --> 00:32:10,525 Speaker 2: I think he could have seen something extremely important, even 550 00:32:10,565 --> 00:32:12,565 Speaker 2: if he didn't realize what he was seeing at the time. 551 00:32:12,845 --> 00:32:14,805 Speaker 2: And it's a shame we don't have a longer interview 552 00:32:14,805 --> 00:32:20,205 Speaker 2: with him. So where do we go from here? There's 553 00:32:20,285 --> 00:32:22,325 Speaker 2: still a lot of people who need to be checked 554 00:32:22,325 --> 00:32:26,405 Speaker 2: out further. After speaking to Cashier number one, it seems 555 00:32:26,525 --> 00:32:29,405 Speaker 2: very plausible that Robbie Tubbs could have been in Hickory 556 00:32:29,445 --> 00:32:32,725 Speaker 2: Ridge that afternoon. A family member confirmed to me that 557 00:32:32,845 --> 00:32:36,125 Speaker 2: Robbie does smoke Marlboro reds. We know that he drove 558 00:32:36,205 --> 00:32:38,765 Speaker 2: a brown car, a sedan that matched the description of 559 00:32:38,805 --> 00:32:44,205 Speaker 2: the one the cashier saw at the time, and most crucially, 560 00:32:44,245 --> 00:32:47,765 Speaker 2: the cashier felt strongly that the photo of Robbie's she 561 00:32:47,845 --> 00:32:50,805 Speaker 2: saw from back in the day looked like the composite 562 00:32:50,885 --> 00:32:54,285 Speaker 2: drawing that she did with the police. Robbie Tubbs could 563 00:32:54,325 --> 00:32:56,085 Speaker 2: have been the stranger who came into the bear Cat 564 00:32:56,165 --> 00:32:59,285 Speaker 2: that night, but that's not enough for a definite ID. 565 00:32:59,485 --> 00:33:02,525 Speaker 2: And even if it was, even if Robbie Tubbs was there, 566 00:33:03,205 --> 00:33:05,365 Speaker 2: this is not proof that he did anything wrong. 567 00:33:05,765 --> 00:33:07,125 Speaker 1: I want to be very clear about that. 568 00:33:07,205 --> 00:33:10,485 Speaker 2: He absolutely could have been in that store for totally 569 00:33:10,485 --> 00:33:13,445 Speaker 2: innocent reasons. We know that he had some ties to 570 00:33:13,485 --> 00:33:16,405 Speaker 2: the area. He had his friend Jackie, who he went 571 00:33:16,485 --> 00:33:19,565 Speaker 2: shelling with when he drove through there. He would often 572 00:33:19,645 --> 00:33:23,085 Speaker 2: drop him in Waldenburg, which is near Hickory Ridge. At 573 00:33:23,125 --> 00:33:26,805 Speaker 2: the time, Robbie and his wife Sandra lived near Pocahontas, Arkansas, 574 00:33:27,485 --> 00:33:29,885 Speaker 2: and at the time Robbie had a girlfriend named Janetta. 575 00:33:29,925 --> 00:33:32,525 Speaker 1: We've talked about that before. The route from. 576 00:33:32,405 --> 00:33:37,165 Speaker 2: Pocahontas to where Robbie went, Shelling passed right through Hickory Ridge. 577 00:33:38,125 --> 00:33:40,525 Speaker 2: There's a route that would go right near his girlfriend's 578 00:33:40,525 --> 00:33:44,005 Speaker 2: place and near the bear cat Robbie Tubb smoked, and 579 00:33:44,045 --> 00:33:46,005 Speaker 2: there are not that many places to make a pit 580 00:33:46,085 --> 00:33:50,525 Speaker 2: stop and buy cigarettes. I also wondered about the evidence. 581 00:33:51,245 --> 00:33:53,685 Speaker 2: We've already talked a lot about everything that happened with 582 00:33:53,725 --> 00:33:58,045 Speaker 2: the hair, the disastrous wrong testing. So now I'm wondering, 583 00:33:58,125 --> 00:33:59,965 Speaker 2: is there anything that police can do with the hair 584 00:34:00,045 --> 00:34:04,125 Speaker 2: evidence that was so badly mishandled. We know forensic testing 585 00:34:04,205 --> 00:34:08,405 Speaker 2: has improved a lot since nineteen ninety two. But then 586 00:34:08,605 --> 00:34:10,325 Speaker 2: I take another look at the case file and I 587 00:34:10,365 --> 00:34:14,725 Speaker 2: see a report dated March fifteenth, twenty twenty three. In fact, 588 00:34:14,725 --> 00:34:17,885 Speaker 2: it seems to be the only activity on Christina Pipkins 589 00:34:17,885 --> 00:34:28,245 Speaker 2: case that's taken place in years, and it's not good news. 590 00:34:29,085 --> 00:34:30,365 Speaker 1: According to the case file. 591 00:34:31,165 --> 00:34:34,605 Speaker 2: In March of twenty twenty three, investigator Robert Scott of 592 00:34:34,605 --> 00:34:39,925 Speaker 2: the Arkansas State Police contacted Dale Arnold, the original Arkansas 593 00:34:39,925 --> 00:34:44,205 Speaker 2: State Police investigator on Christina's case. Robert Scott asked Dale 594 00:34:44,285 --> 00:34:47,285 Speaker 2: Arnold about the hair sample. Dale Arnold said he had 595 00:34:47,285 --> 00:34:50,285 Speaker 2: already given testimony about it when the mistake was discovered. 596 00:34:51,205 --> 00:34:53,845 Speaker 2: It seemed from reading the report like it wasn't something 597 00:34:53,885 --> 00:34:59,205 Speaker 2: that Dale Arnold wanted to pursue further. Then, Robert Scott wrote, quote, 598 00:34:59,685 --> 00:35:03,325 Speaker 2: Cross County Sheriff's Office Investigator Boykinds pulled the case at 599 00:35:03,365 --> 00:35:08,045 Speaker 2: my request and researched the evidence. Investigator Boykins was unable 600 00:35:08,125 --> 00:35:10,245 Speaker 2: to find the hair recovered from the vehicle of mister 601 00:35:10,285 --> 00:35:14,565 Speaker 2: Tubbs in the Cross County Sheriff's Office property room. Investigator 602 00:35:14,645 --> 00:35:17,485 Speaker 2: Arnold stated he didn't know where the hair was Now. 603 00:35:18,245 --> 00:35:20,765 Speaker 2: I reviewed the case file on the custody of Cross County. 604 00:35:21,125 --> 00:35:25,085 Speaker 2: No new information was developed. It is highly unlikely that 605 00:35:25,125 --> 00:35:27,525 Speaker 2: the recovered hair could be used in a court proceeding 606 00:35:28,085 --> 00:35:30,245 Speaker 2: due to the previous submission in the trial of mister 607 00:35:30,245 --> 00:35:33,565 Speaker 2: Tubbs end quote. I knew it was a long shot 608 00:35:33,605 --> 00:35:36,005 Speaker 2: with this hair, but I can't help but feel devastated 609 00:35:36,005 --> 00:35:39,245 Speaker 2: for Christina's family because what that means is that after 610 00:35:39,285 --> 00:35:43,285 Speaker 2: that mistake at Robbie Tubbs's trial, the evidence, it seems, 611 00:35:43,405 --> 00:35:45,725 Speaker 2: was returned from the Arkansas State Police crime Lab to 612 00:35:45,765 --> 00:35:48,605 Speaker 2: the Cross County Sheriff's office, but it didn't stay there. 613 00:35:49,765 --> 00:35:57,045 Speaker 2: Somehow it's missing. And this is where I really start 614 00:35:57,045 --> 00:36:00,765 Speaker 2: to feel outraged, because it's not enough that they botched 615 00:36:00,805 --> 00:36:04,125 Speaker 2: the testing. Now they've lost the hair, They've lost the 616 00:36:04,205 --> 00:36:07,525 Speaker 2: one piece of physical EVAs that could be definitively tested. 617 00:36:08,605 --> 00:36:09,405 Speaker 1: It's just shocking. 618 00:36:10,965 --> 00:36:13,685 Speaker 2: Investigator Scott goes on to say that he and another 619 00:36:13,725 --> 00:36:17,445 Speaker 2: investigator did reach out to Robbie Tubbs, though they misspelled 620 00:36:17,485 --> 00:36:20,245 Speaker 2: his name as Ronnie Tubbs. He said they have a 621 00:36:20,325 --> 00:36:23,845 Speaker 2: last known address for Robbie at a motel in Sulfur Springs, Texas. 622 00:36:24,885 --> 00:36:26,645 Speaker 2: I don't know if they don't want to find him 623 00:36:26,765 --> 00:36:29,365 Speaker 2: or if they can't find him, but no further contact 624 00:36:29,445 --> 00:36:32,365 Speaker 2: with Robbie Tubbs was recorded in the case file. I 625 00:36:32,405 --> 00:36:34,965 Speaker 2: found Robbie Tubbs in about ten minutes. I saw on 626 00:36:35,045 --> 00:36:38,005 Speaker 2: social media that he sometimes posts from his hotel room. 627 00:36:39,245 --> 00:36:41,725 Speaker 1: And I really don't know if the ASP. 628 00:36:41,445 --> 00:36:43,405 Speaker 2: Don't feel they have enough evidence, they don't want to 629 00:36:43,405 --> 00:36:47,205 Speaker 2: reach out, Maybe their jurisdictional issues, maybe they don't want 630 00:36:47,245 --> 00:36:51,405 Speaker 2: to call Texas law enforcement with this. But either way, 631 00:36:51,565 --> 00:36:54,405 Speaker 2: that recent report, plus the fact they've released the case 632 00:36:54,405 --> 00:36:58,325 Speaker 2: file publicly tells us the police in my opinion, are 633 00:36:58,445 --> 00:37:06,325 Speaker 2: not actively investigating this case. After Christina's funeral, her parents, 634 00:37:06,405 --> 00:37:11,885 Speaker 2: James and Frida, moved away. Eventually they divorced again. I 635 00:37:12,005 --> 00:37:17,485 Speaker 2: take no joy in retraumatizing anyone and digging up family trauma. 636 00:37:18,125 --> 00:37:21,645 Speaker 2: But I believe that there are answers in this case 637 00:37:21,685 --> 00:37:23,965 Speaker 2: that could be found, and they are not in this 638 00:37:24,045 --> 00:37:24,925 Speaker 2: police case file. 639 00:37:24,965 --> 00:37:27,205 Speaker 1: We have to find these people, We need to talk 640 00:37:27,285 --> 00:37:27,605 Speaker 1: to them. 641 00:37:28,285 --> 00:37:30,605 Speaker 2: We have to keep going back to that bear Cat 642 00:37:30,645 --> 00:37:33,285 Speaker 2: convenience store on the night of May fourth, nineteen ninety one, 643 00:37:33,845 --> 00:37:36,965 Speaker 2: and we have to zero in on the tiny little details. 644 00:37:39,365 --> 00:37:44,765 Speaker 2: Now I'm zeroing in on one discrepancy. Christina's math teacher 645 00:37:44,765 --> 00:37:48,445 Speaker 2: said when she spoke to Christina that Christina had her 646 00:37:48,485 --> 00:37:52,325 Speaker 2: flyer for jewelry selling in her hand, but the cashier 647 00:37:52,485 --> 00:37:55,365 Speaker 2: Cashier III, who saw Christina in the doorway of the 648 00:37:55,365 --> 00:37:58,605 Speaker 2: bear Cat a little while later, said Christina did not 649 00:37:58,645 --> 00:38:00,725 Speaker 2: have anything in her hands, and she remembered that because 650 00:38:00,765 --> 00:38:03,045 Speaker 2: Christina kind of shrugged and she saw both of her 651 00:38:03,085 --> 00:38:04,245 Speaker 2: hands go up and they were empty. 652 00:38:05,165 --> 00:38:08,805 Speaker 1: So could Christina have left her flyer at home then come. 653 00:38:08,685 --> 00:38:11,565 Speaker 2: Back to the store. If so, why was she coming 654 00:38:11,605 --> 00:38:14,925 Speaker 2: back to the store. If she was done selling her jewelry. 655 00:38:15,125 --> 00:38:18,925 Speaker 2: Could she have seen someone she knew outside, maybe someone 656 00:38:18,925 --> 00:38:22,685 Speaker 2: who offered her a ride. Maybe that person had already 657 00:38:22,725 --> 00:38:25,685 Speaker 2: talked to Christina when the cashier saw her inside the door. 658 00:38:27,085 --> 00:38:33,085 Speaker 2: Maybe their car was sitting outside right then. 659 00:38:33,805 --> 00:38:35,365 Speaker 1: I am not giving up on this case. 660 00:38:35,925 --> 00:38:38,045 Speaker 2: I'm going to work my way through the hundreds of 661 00:38:38,045 --> 00:38:40,805 Speaker 2: messages I've received and keep reaching out and keep trying 662 00:38:40,805 --> 00:38:44,205 Speaker 2: to get answers. I'm going to document every single interview 663 00:38:44,205 --> 00:38:46,685 Speaker 2: that I have, and I'm going to turn over any 664 00:38:46,725 --> 00:38:49,965 Speaker 2: helpful information I find to law enforcement and to. 665 00:38:49,925 --> 00:38:53,045 Speaker 1: The prosecutor's office. And I'm going to keep. 666 00:38:52,885 --> 00:38:56,325 Speaker 2: Pushing for access to that autopsy report and also to 667 00:38:56,325 --> 00:38:59,405 Speaker 2: get any information that I can about Geneva Smith and 668 00:38:59,485 --> 00:39:03,685 Speaker 2: Guardina Cross. Of course, we can never know exactly what 669 00:39:03,765 --> 00:39:07,725 Speaker 2: will happen next, but I can promise, as always, I 670 00:39:07,805 --> 00:39:09,725 Speaker 2: will keep working on this case in the background, and 671 00:39:09,765 --> 00:39:13,325 Speaker 2: I will keep you posted. Most importantly, I'm gonna keep 672 00:39:13,325 --> 00:39:16,245 Speaker 2: talking to people any one I can, because every time 673 00:39:16,285 --> 00:39:18,525 Speaker 2: I do, with every new detail that I learned that 674 00:39:18,605 --> 00:39:20,685 Speaker 2: was not in the case file or in any of 675 00:39:20,725 --> 00:39:24,725 Speaker 2: the police reports, that potential window of time that someone 676 00:39:24,805 --> 00:39:28,445 Speaker 2: had to kidnap and murder a little girl gets smaller 677 00:39:28,485 --> 00:39:29,085 Speaker 2: and smaller. 678 00:39:29,925 --> 00:39:33,965 Speaker 1: We have to keep digging. I'm Catherine Townsend. 679 00:39:34,485 --> 00:39:41,045 Speaker 2: This is Helen Gone murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line 680 00:39:41,085 --> 00:39:43,405 Speaker 2: is a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. 681 00:39:43,765 --> 00:39:46,805 Speaker 2: It's written and narrated by me, Catherine Townsend and produced 682 00:39:46,805 --> 00:39:47,605 Speaker 2: by Gabby Watts. 683 00:39:48,285 --> 00:39:50,205 Speaker 1: Music is by Ben Sale. 684 00:39:50,405 --> 00:39:53,805 Speaker 2: Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and L. C. 685 00:39:54,005 --> 00:39:55,045 Speaker 1: Crowley. 686 00:39:55,125 --> 00:39:56,805 Speaker 2: If you have a case you'd like me and my 687 00:39:56,845 --> 00:39:59,085 Speaker 2: team to look into, you can reach out to us 688 00:39:59,085 --> 00:40:01,565 Speaker 2: at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight 689 00:40:01,885 --> 00:40:05,685 Speaker 2: seven four four six ' one four five that eight 690 00:40:06,085 --> 00:40:10,925 Speaker 2: seven four four six one four five. Please don't forget 691 00:40:10,925 --> 00:40:14,205 Speaker 2: to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to 692 00:40:14,205 --> 00:40:14,765 Speaker 2: podcasts 693 00:40:22,845 --> 00:40:23,765 Speaker 1: School of Humans