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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call be Bed. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagod. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. Let's start here, gentlemen,

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Speaker 3: have you ever been interrogated.

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Speaker 4: Oh, goshya by my mom, my ex wife. This little

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Speaker 4: guy right here sometimes gets a little demanded. No, not

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Speaker 4: in a professional setting, look like you know, under duress

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Speaker 4: or in confinement.

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Speaker 2: I've been interrogated by my dog about why it is

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Speaker 2: time to eat right now, and there's you know, we

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Speaker 2: can't wait on your rules. It's time to eat now.

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Speaker 3: I've also been there, Matt. I've been interrogated sometimes on

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Speaker 3: air by my cats who don't understand podcast in general.

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Speaker 3: But that's what you could say about so many other

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Speaker 3: family members. I think we've we all at least know

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Speaker 3: someone who has been involved in a legal inquiry of

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Speaker 3: one sort or another. Or maybe you're a bystander and

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Speaker 3: you see a automobile accident, right, and you stop to

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Speaker 3: be a witness for the police. They're going to ask

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Speaker 3: you some questions. You're not necessarily in trouble, but they

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Speaker 3: are kind of interrogating you because they want to know

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Speaker 3: what's going on.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting that you bring that up, and because

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Speaker 4: I've always been curious as to whether there is a

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Speaker 4: line between being questioned and being interrogated.

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Speaker 3: Right, where did the Miranda rights kick in? For example? Well,

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Speaker 3: we know that in the ui U there are an

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Speaker 3: increasing number of people who are being put to some

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Speaker 3: kind of interrogation for any number of reasons, especially with

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Speaker 3: the rise of ice. And you could be the hardest

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Speaker 3: badger in the bag and tire, but given enough time

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Speaker 3: and incentive, everybody confirms that you will break. So yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: the best we can hope is to resist for as

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Speaker 3: long as possible. We have to say this part loud.

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Speaker 3: Video producers make sure we get this across. This is

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Speaker 3: not legal advice. None of this is legal advice.

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Speaker 4: Just gentle you know, the encouragement, you know, to act

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Speaker 4: as in a certain way.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and in all likelihood you will never be fully

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Speaker 2: interrogated in some of the ways we're going to discuss here.

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Speaker 5: Knock on, would we hope not.

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Speaker 2: The paramilitary military stuff, you know, extra judicial interrogation kind

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Speaker 2: of thing, but the likelihood that you end up in

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Speaker 2: a situation that Ben was describing the but you know

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Speaker 2: you're going to be asked a bunch of questions at

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Speaker 2: some point by law enforcement. That that can and probably

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Speaker 2: will happen. And it doesn't mean there's like a murder

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Speaker 2: charge anywhere involved there. It just means you might get questions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a great place for us to start.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we take a break for a word from our

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Speaker 3: sponsors and we dive in. Here are the facts first

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Speaker 3: things verse Again, Cadot emphasize this enough. We are not lawyers,

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Speaker 3: but the lawyers are correct. You can avoid it. Do

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Speaker 3: not speak to any law of your land if you

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Speaker 3: can avoid it. If you're in the US, you have

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Speaker 3: a constitutional right to remain silent via something called the

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Speaker 3: Fifth Amendment, which I think sometimes gets unfairly portrayed as

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Speaker 3: the sketchiest of amendments.

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Speaker 4: Also sometimes fairly portrayed, I think in the way we've

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Speaker 4: been seeing it flung around willy nilly these days, and

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Speaker 4: of course there is a certain uh stigma surrounding it

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Speaker 4: that it does imply some level of guilt, which to

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Speaker 4: your point, Ben, I think isn't always fair though in

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Speaker 4: some of the Gelane Maxwell uses of it, for example, uh,

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Speaker 4: some of the Epstein you know files of it all

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Speaker 4: does seem to cast dispersions, let's just say, on the

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Speaker 4: innocence of the folks using it to answer every single question.

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Speaker 3: Plus those hilarious depositions. When you can get a hold

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Speaker 3: of the footage where it's somebody being asked a question,

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Speaker 3: they just go fifth.

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Speaker 5: Hold on, I plead the fifth?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, five?

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Speaker 5: Is that a Chappelle thing?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's so good.

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Speaker 3: The Fifth Amendment states mandates that no person shall quote

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Speaker 3: be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness

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Speaker 3: against himself. That's why people are saying that does it

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Speaker 3: imply that you did a crime?

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Speaker 4: I guess I've been hearing a lot of chatter too.

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Speaker 4: Maybe you guys have thoughts about this, certainly you do.

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Speaker 5: Whether or not it is.

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Speaker 4: Lost some of its effectiveness or there is a world

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Speaker 4: where it is unfairly used or used in a way

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Speaker 4: that seems to be a way of skirting the law

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Speaker 4: rather than it being a benefit to individual civil liberties.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it definitely can happen. It can be loopholed, weaponized,

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Speaker 3: especially if you have the socioeconomic wherewithal to get a

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Speaker 3: cracked team of lawyers. Then they are going to do

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Speaker 3: everything possible to get the best outcome for whatever your

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Speaker 3: case is. It also Maxwell right, Galai Maxwell cough cough

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Speaker 3: current Potus cough cough right. I mean, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's weird because if we ask why it's important,

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Speaker 3: Like to your point, Noel, the laws only work so

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Speaker 3: long as they are honestly enforced, which is coming in

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Speaker 3: increasing issue here. But why did the founding fathers, who

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Speaker 3: were very busy at the time, why did they make

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Speaker 3: the Constitution and then go back and make a whole

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Speaker 3: other document we call the Bill of Rights. It's probably

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Speaker 3: because George and the boys knew how crazy English law

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Speaker 3: could get, and if we're being honest, just a little

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Speaker 3: outside of the textbook, they probably knew they would be

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Speaker 3: up for some serious accusations of war crimes if things

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Speaker 3: didn't go to plant.

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Speaker 4: All right, I mean George and the boys were revolutionaries,

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, criminals you know, a terrorists perhaps, right, they

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Speaker 4: could be called that by the English crown.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you're doing a little pigh in the

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Speaker 2: sky with the Founders, you may think, oh, they recognize

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Speaker 2: that power can be abused, you know, no matter who's

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Speaker 2: holding it, and maybe even we could become corrupted one day. No,

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Speaker 2: that's a little bit mythical. Well when it comes there's

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Speaker 2: so many Founding Father mythical things that are out there,

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Speaker 2: But there is a knowledge here that it just depends

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Speaker 2: on who's on the other side of the table in

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Speaker 2: that eight x ten room, right, it just depends. So

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Speaker 2: you need to have safeguards to protect everybody.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean the whole point of the Second Amendments

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Speaker 4: and the right to bear arms was i believe specifically

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Speaker 4: in reference to defending yourself against a corrupt government.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah. Also the also the mandate against being forced

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Speaker 3: to station troops in your home and to feed them

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Speaker 3: and so on. Like a lot of this stuff is

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Speaker 3: a good idea in theory. Another thing about who's on

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Speaker 3: which side of the interrogation table. There's something called the

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Speaker 3: sixth Amendment in the United States, which was an absolute

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Speaker 3: banger when it came out. It said you have the

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Speaker 3: right to the assistance of counsel, which means that in

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Speaker 3: a criminal interrogation caveat pastric copyat, you have the right

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Speaker 3: to speak with an attorney before speaking to law enforcement.

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Speaker 3: This is why in all the copaganda films or programs

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Speaker 3: you see on television, that's why someone suddenly clams up

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Speaker 3: and just says, lawyer, that does happen, Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 4: And these are the Miranda rights, ben Or like I believe,

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Speaker 4: I've always been curious as to the etymology. That's not

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Speaker 4: the right word, but just the history of the Miranda rights.

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Speaker 4: Obviously it had something to do with, you know, people

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Speaker 4: not being aware, and it was a way of covering

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Speaker 4: the butts of the law enforcement as well as you know,

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Speaker 4: making individuals accused of a crime aware of their rights.

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Speaker 4: But it seems like most of the ones that are

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Speaker 4: contained in those rights they read you are contained within

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Speaker 4: the Bill of Rights.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's supposed to. It's from nineteen sixty six

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Speaker 3: Miranda versus Arizona Supreme Court case, and eventually, as a

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Speaker 3: result of the Court's findings, the United States said, look,

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Speaker 3: we need a special additional protection to make sure the

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Speaker 3: Fifth Amendment against self incrimination is a thing everybody knows

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Speaker 3: about because not everybody knew about it. Right, you're panicked,

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Speaker 3: you're detained, you may have done something. You may have

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Speaker 3: just been in the wrong place at the wrong time,

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Speaker 3: and then in your panic you might run a little

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Speaker 3: bit at the mouth.

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Speaker 4: In a way, the thing you say can and will

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Speaker 4: be used against you in a court of loss. That

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Speaker 4: just don't say anything. We're trying to help you out there, buddy,

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Speaker 4: We're doing to have a solid here.

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Speaker 2: That's something that attorneys will often say, and they'll they'll

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Speaker 2: usually on the YouTube at least they'll give that same

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Speaker 2: disclaimer we gave. Hey, this is my legal advice. I'm

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Speaker 2: just telling you my experience as an attorney. This concept

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Speaker 2: that anything you say that that part of them Miranda writes,

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Speaker 2: anything you say or do can't be used against you

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Speaker 2: in a court of law. The concept that when you

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Speaker 2: are being interviewed, right, if you are in one of

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Speaker 2: those rooms, you are probably already looked as guilty of

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Speaker 2: something by the folks who put you in that room,

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Speaker 2: or at least have a strong suspicion that you're guilty

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Speaker 2: of something.

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Speaker 4: You are sus my friend, Yes, indeed, so when you.

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Speaker 2: Say things in that room, it is not to defend

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Speaker 2: yourself by any means. It is literally to build the

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Speaker 2: case against you what you're saying in that room.

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Speaker 3: Right, regardless of how friendly the demeanor may be.

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Speaker 2: Exactly so. But once you have that attorney present, right,

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Speaker 2: or and you have discussions with an attorney, then you

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Speaker 2: can say things that are probably going to be better

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Again, these two amendments in particular might sound a

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Speaker 3: little bit sketchy, but anybody who's been on the wrong

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Speaker 3: side of certain conversations with law enforcement knows exactly why

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Speaker 3: those rights exist, why they're so important. Before the rise

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Speaker 3: of modern legal proceedings, which are still very much work

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Speaker 3: in progress, the law was arbitrary and cartoonishly brutal. The

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Speaker 3: local ruler, whomever the mucky you muck may be, could,

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Speaker 3: at any point in time just decide they don't like

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Speaker 3: you for one reason or another. Maybe you're Jewish, maybe

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Speaker 3: you're from the poor part of town, maybe there's economic instability.

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Speaker 3: They need a convenient scapegoat. So if targeted, your guilt

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Speaker 3: is historically going to be assumed, and the protections, at

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Speaker 3: least in Western Europe, for proving oneself innocent were likewise

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Speaker 3: kind of buffo trial by ordeal, like, hey, you know,

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Speaker 3: trial by ordeal could be something like sticking your hand

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Speaker 3: and boiling water or just fighting and seeing who survives.

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Speaker 4: Are you all up on Night of the Seven Kingdoms? Yes,

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Speaker 4: I think it's phenomenal, I want to say, And the

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Speaker 4: most recent episode involved a trial by combat, which I've

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Speaker 4: always found delightfully brutal and just esoteric and like it's

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Speaker 4: about the gods they decide. You mentioned in the document

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Speaker 4: here ban or the outline, the idea of a kangaroo court,

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Speaker 4: h the notion that for optics, for the presentation of fairness,

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Speaker 4: we will have a trial, but the outcome is predetermined,

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Speaker 4: and it is all literally just to say we did

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Speaker 4: the thing and you know, keep the peace quote unquote,

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Speaker 4: make make you know, perhaps prevent an uprising because no, no,

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Speaker 4: we did. We gave them their fair shake. But it

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Speaker 4: is in fact predetermined and you have no chance of

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Speaker 4: being acquitted.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And we see even back then, we see the

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Speaker 3: same method of loaded questions that exist in modern interrogations today.

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Speaker 3: So it's not necessarily for instance, hey, Dylan tennessee pel Fagan,

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Speaker 3: did you kill mothman instead? It's hey, Dylan, why did

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Speaker 3: you kill Mothman?

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Speaker 2: He had it coming.

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Speaker 4: So pretty much attack and those buns were too glistening

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Speaker 4: for my takes. I couldn't have a creature that beautiful

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Speaker 4: in the world Premio looking like a Master's of the

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Speaker 4: Universe action figure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they really does.

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Speaker 2: Even back then, I was like, oh, in the days

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Speaker 2: of winterfella.

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, so the days of before the fall of winterfel.

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Speaker 3: I mean, okay, So during this time we see that

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Speaker 3: interrogation wasn't highly evolved the way it is theoretically today. Theoretically, right,

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Speaker 3: if you're an enemy soldier, they're going to torture you

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Speaker 3: for information and then they'll murder you in any number

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Speaker 3: of ghastly ways. And so this is how crooked it was. You.

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Speaker 3: Let's say you fell victim to the inquisition. Maybe you

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Speaker 3: are an older person living on the fringes of society

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Speaker 3: they need someone to blame.

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Speaker 4: Might have a word on your nose, you know, or

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Speaker 4: you might have.

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Speaker 3: You might have assets, especially like property of some sort.

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Speaker 3: And often the inquisitors were I don't work it on commission,

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Speaker 3: so they got a share of your stuff if they

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Speaker 3: were able to quote unquote prove you're a witch, which

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Speaker 3: meant that they were incentivized not to find the truth

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Speaker 3: but to get your stuffed.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Bit of that.

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Speaker 4: Going on with the ice raids these days in terms

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Speaker 4: of their quotas that they've got to meet. If you're

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Speaker 4: incentivized that way, not to mention the bonuses of it all,

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Speaker 4: you are much more likely to take some shortcuts and

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Speaker 4: you know, roll up people that maybe shouldn't be rolled up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And saying I'm not a witch could indeed be

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Speaker 3: held as solid proof that you are in fact a witch.

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Speaker 3: Or saying you know, I have my passport, it's just

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Speaker 3: over there, can I get it?

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Speaker 4: And then being told we don't have time. We're just

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Speaker 4: sorting a shot in the face when you reach for it, right.

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Speaker 4: Not to be too much of a pill about it.

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Speaker 4: It's just there's a lot of parallels here, you know,

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Speaker 4: Like again, saying I am a US citizen in many

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Speaker 4: ways is even further reason to drag people, you know,

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Speaker 4: through the ringer.

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Speaker 5: And you're talking about in the olden.

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Speaker 4: Days, the witch trials of it all using a methodology

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Speaker 4: that is inherently flawed, and that is there's no version

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Speaker 4: of these events where you are going to come out

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Speaker 4: clean on the other side, once you've been pulled into

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Speaker 4: this rigmarole.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the issue here is that the inquisitors would

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Speaker 3: get whatever confession they wanted, it would not necessarily be

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Speaker 3: an accurate confession because torture doesn't work at least in

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Speaker 3: that way. Torture is very good at getting people, the victims,

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Speaker 3: to say whatever you want them to say, but it

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Speaker 3: is not very good at getting them to tell you

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Speaker 3: the truth, especially with perishable intelligence.

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Speaker 4: Whether it works or not, I guess is a question

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Speaker 4: of what you want the outcome to be. You know,

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Speaker 4: are people actually seeking the truth or are they just

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Speaker 4: looking to oppress?

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Speaker 3: And then further, once that confession by Hooker by Krop

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Speaker 3: was obtained, then the victim of these proceedings pretty much

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Speaker 3: lost all their usefulness. There was no longer really a

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Speaker 3: reason to keep them alive. It was much more socio

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Speaker 3: economically advantageous for the authorities to kill that person in

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Speaker 3: a public spectacle to set an example. So progress has

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Speaker 3: been made, but there's still a lot of work to do.

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Speaker 3: The US on paper has a clear code of rights,

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Speaker 3: roles responsibilities to Matt's point for everybody involved, and these

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Speaker 3: roles and responsibilities and rights. They're all about how info

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Speaker 3: is disclosed, the rights of the person being questioned, and

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Speaker 3: the limits on behavior for those seeking the answers. Again

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Speaker 3: caveat pof cough as.

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Speaker 2: Not supposed to hit the people in your interview room

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Speaker 2: right now, supposed to Luther looking at you.

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Speaker 5: I've been watching Luther.

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Speaker 2: I just watched that.

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize there was a fifth season. I binged

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Speaker 4: on it's the entire thing last night. Really good.

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Speaker 3: You're also supposed to respect the rules of the road

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Speaker 3: as far as things like attorney client privilege, so you

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Speaker 3: can't can't sneak a little little eavesdropping in. But this

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Speaker 3: is the deal. We keep saying the word theoretically, we

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Speaker 3: keep saying phrases like on paper. That's because the US

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Speaker 3: has a terrifying track record when it comes to interrogation.

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Speaker 3: Some of us in the crowd tonight are old enough

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Speaker 3: to remember when government agencies throughout the rule book entirely.

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Speaker 4: And if we enhanced these interrogations.

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Speaker 3: Exactly engaged in a system of torture known as enhanced interrogation.

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Speaker 3: They argued, Look for the greater good, we have to

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Speaker 3: kidnap people around the world, and we have to find

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Speaker 3: creative ways to beat the hit out of them until

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Speaker 3: they tell us what we want to know. And this

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Speaker 3: was the old ticking time bomb scenario, the idea that

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Speaker 3: a terrorist attack could occur within months, hours, days, and

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Speaker 3: saving many lives therefore outweighed the sin of ending one

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Speaker 3: and people just always.

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Speaker 4: A scary argument, the greater good argument. I don't know

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Speaker 4: that there's a version of it that benefits everyone.

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Speaker 5: I think it's such.

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Speaker 4: As it kind of a straw man argument. Maybe just

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Speaker 4: the idea of the greater good. It just feels like

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Speaker 4: double speak, like there is no version of for the

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Speaker 4: greater good that is actually for the greater good.

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Speaker 3: It's a rationalization, it's it's a way for the people

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Speaker 3: in power who are doing untoward things to justify their actions,

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Speaker 3: especially given that history has shown us time and time

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Speaker 3: again the ticking time bomb scenario proves false. Doesn't really

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Speaker 3: happen the way it's depicted.

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Speaker 2: Such a weird thing that went down in history. Guys,

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Speaker 2: you know the September eleventh attacks. If they went down

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Speaker 2: the way the government says they went down, then it

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Speaker 2: was a terrible breach of intelligence and a horrifying loss

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Speaker 2: of life. And you know, just a whole it was

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Speaker 2: just terrible, right, So I think we all understand that

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Speaker 2: that base desire to prevent that from happening again, you

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Speaker 2: know all the show twenty four and and folks who

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Speaker 2: are out there on land, Yeah, yes, who want to

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Speaker 2: stop those bad guys, And we're the guys are stopped

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Speaker 2: the bad guys. That rationalization thing you're talking about there

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Speaker 2: very least right, Well, it is, but it's also really

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Speaker 2: tough to just to recognize and realize that it went

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Speaker 2: on for years and years and years with that same

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Speaker 2: rationalization of preventing one of these with the number of

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Speaker 2: human beings that get, you know, stuck in a location

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Speaker 2: in another country that is not the one they're from,

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Speaker 2: not the US place where they're just in a hole

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Speaker 2: and being subject to the things we're going to describe here.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, as we're going through it, I don't

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Speaker 2: know how you like categorize what's what's the worst verse

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Speaker 2: version of the things we're going to talk about right

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Speaker 2: that someone could experience. But the more I go through this,

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Speaker 2: I feel like sleep deprivation is one of those things

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Speaker 2: that I didn't understand how horrifying sleep deprivation just alone

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Speaker 2: is when it comes to what was happening to human

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Speaker 2: beings during that time that the United States subjected people to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, these are all great points because as we

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Speaker 3: record right now, folks, there are multiple people in Guantanamo

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Speaker 3: Bay and something like twenty sixhi Ish black sites around

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Speaker 3: the world, third part of countries, and a lot of

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Speaker 3: these people who have been held for years or decades.

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Speaker 3: They've never been officially accused of a crime. They've been waterboarded,

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Speaker 3: put in stress positions, cold rooms, deprived of sleep, force fed, beaten, sodomized,

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Speaker 3: and emotionally manipulated to disclose information that they did not

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Speaker 3: and do not possess. Barking up the wrong tree and

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Speaker 3: we're torturing the tree in the process.

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Speaker 4: Guys, I just had a this is probably obvious, but

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Speaker 4: I was reminded and watching some YouTube stuff the other

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Speaker 4: day that the Department of Homeland Security is such a

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Speaker 4: recent innovations, like it was literally created as a response

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Speaker 4: to nine to eleven. I know probably everybody remembered that

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Speaker 4: but me, But I kind of it just goes to

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Speaker 4: show how quickly something can be normalized and you kind

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Speaker 4: of forget the circumstances that led it to the creation

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Speaker 4: of a thing that now has taken on this whole

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Speaker 4: other bizarre life of its own.

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Speaker 3: And homeland is a very specific word choice for a

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Speaker 3: government agency like that. Right, No, it's a fascism if

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Speaker 3: I was sipping it like ice coffee or wine. Ooh,

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Speaker 3: World War two.

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Speaker 5: Here we'll have our home.

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Speaker 2: Again, guys, and we will protect that home by listening

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Speaker 2: to everything everybody says and watching everyone on every street corner,

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Speaker 2: but definitely not the cell phones. We won't look at

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Speaker 2: your cell phones camera, guys, pinky promise, did you get

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Speaker 2: let us see the there's a recent picture of net

387
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Speaker 2: and Yahoo on the phone by his car, and it's

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Speaker 2: his personal phone, and he's got tape with black marker

389
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Speaker 2: across all of three of the cameras.

390
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Speaker 3: Should pay attention to what those guys in the political

391
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Speaker 3: class pay attention to what they do with their phones.

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Speaker 3: We also, we also know the scenes so clearly where

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Speaker 3: we should save the quiet part out loud. The Patriot

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Speaker 3: Act devilish thing, just tremendous marketing in the name, Like Congressman,

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Speaker 3: could you explain why you voted against the Patriot Act?

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Speaker 7: Ooh, just because look you're we assumed you were patriot

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Speaker 7: serving your constituency of US citizens, but you voted against.

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Speaker 3: The Patriot Act.

399
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Speaker 2: Yeah, why do you hate the troops so much?

400
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Speaker 3: Man?

401
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 4: That term patriot has become such a dog whistle these days.

402
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Speaker 5: I can't handle it.

403
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Speaker 4: It's just bro When you refer to somebody as being

404
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 4: a patriot in a certain context, you're basically saying that they,

405
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 4: you know, are they just like white people.

406
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Speaker 3: It's it has become a dog whistle. Agree with that.

407
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Speaker 3: And let's also I'm not saying that's accurate.

408
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Speaker 4: I'm saying that's the way it's used. That's the parlance

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Speaker 4: that it has taken on, you know.

410
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 3: Weaponized, right, and dog whistled. As you said. It's also

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Speaker 3: we shouldn't forget that, Uh, Patriot didn't just become a

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Speaker 3: dog whistle. It's also the name of one of the

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Speaker 3: most dangerous missiles on the planet.

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Speaker 4: What a weird thing to name a missile and an

415
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Speaker 4: excellent nineteen nineties political thriller Patriot cames.

416
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Speaker 3: We're rolling out our newest ICBM. It's a hypersonic missile.

417
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Speaker 3: We call it the Puppy Hug.

418
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well that to our point. We often make

419
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Speaker 4: the most of the more innocuous to name the scarier

420
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Speaker 4: the thing. So puppy hug would be the ultimate doomsday device.

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Speaker 3: I think drop a puppy hug. Oh my gosh, that's

422
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Speaker 3: going to come back to bitus. All right, So we know,

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Speaker 3: we hope you never find yourself in any situation like this. Ever,

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Speaker 3: we hope not. But if you do, you need to

425
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 3: understand that, depending on the amount of time the questioners

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Speaker 3: have with you, you will break. No matter how badass

427
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 3: you feel right now as you're tuning in, you will break.

428
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 3: And we have that confirmed by people who've been through interrogation,

429
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 3: real hard cases. You know, members of special forces, for instance,

430
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 3: across the planet, right, members of terrorist and counter terrorist groups.

431
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 3: Things get hairy no matter who you are. Given enough time,

432
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Speaker 3: and depending upon the methods of physical and mental torture,

433
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Speaker 3: you're eventually not only going to confess, but you'll confess

434
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 3: this stuff that isn't true. You'll say whatever they want

435
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 3: as long as you can get some water, go to sleep,

436
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: maybe hope to regrow your fingernails.

437
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: Yew.

438
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of them.

439
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 2: Well, well, you know when we're gonna talk about it,

440
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 2: But when these interrogation techniques are crazy A effective. They

441
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 2: don't have to actually torture you physically. It's all in

442
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 2: this thing and they know it.

443
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 3: It is.

444
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: But I was watching a video of a guy SAS,

445
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: which is I always forget because I watched extras and

446
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 2: I Special Air Services. I think is the actual essays? Yeah,

447
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: did you guys see that one where there's I forget

448
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: the actor's name, but he's like, I'm in s I S.

449
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 2: But he's not actually at all. He's like a just

450
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: an actor and puts on that he was an essay.

451
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: I can't remember anyway, I'm sorry. Ye Oh crap, I've

452
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: completely lost my place. Now, never mind, no mental break.

453
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 3: Let's keep it mental break. Because you could water after

454
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 3: someone has been waterboarded often enough, right, then here's a

455
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: here's a form of the psychological manipulation. You don't have

456
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: to waterboard them anymore. It is traumatizing enough for them

457
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 3: to see you walk in with a bucket and put

458
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 3: the towel on the table.

459
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. But the biggest thing you're saying, though, is the

460
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: sleep deprivation. When they get trained, the SAS soldiers get

461
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 2: trained to resist interrogation. It's a known thing that you

462
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: cannot right, but it is a time thing, yes, like

463
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: how long can you go?

464
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 3: Basically yes, exactly, your only choice, resist as long as possible,

465
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 3: and hope that help arrives. Please beware, folks, there are

466
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 3: going to be some graphic depictions of violence here. Here's

467
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: where it gets grease, all right again, Virtually anyone, everyone

468
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 3: will break given incentives and time. This means that the smartest,

469
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 3: meanest guys on the planet spend a lot of time

470
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 3: figuring out what effective interrogation looks like, right, how to

471
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 3: resist it, and at the same time time, how to

472
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 3: overcome that resistance. Because learning to resist interrogation and learning

473
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 3: to break resistance are two fingers on the same hand,

474
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: they're just two different ways of looking at the same

475
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 3: skill sets and techniques. So for comparison, folks, let's think

476
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 3: of it this way. Think of it as the difference

477
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: between flame proof and flame resistant. Flame Proof is a

478
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: myth because past a certain temperature, pretty much anything will

479
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 3: burn jet. You'll still be et cetera. Flame resistance, we

480
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 3: got to get it in. Flame Resistant is more accurate, though,

481
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: because it describes making flame difficult, and that's the key

482
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: to resisting interrogation. You're never going to be interrogation proof.

483
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 4: Well, and I also like to stick with that analogy.

484
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 4: It is not in the best interests of the interrogator

485
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 4: to set someone on fire, you know, letting the word go,

486
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 4: because you're not going to get anything out of them. So,

487
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 4: you know, being a little bit resistant to these techniques,

488
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 4: it could serve you well being that their job is

489
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 4: to meet out just enough to you know, to get

490
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 4: you to do what they want to do, rather than

491
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 4: to like, you know, do the whole thing up front.

492
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point that leads us directly to

493
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: one of the most important things, the good news. Let's

494
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: hit the good news first. If you are in an

495
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 3: interrogation scenario, that means you have not already been murdered.

496
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 3: That means you, for the moment, are alive, and that

497
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: logically means your captors want something from you. It could

498
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 3: be information on an operation they think you're involved in.

499
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: If it's that, they're gonna want the specific old school

500
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: journalism details who, what, when, and where, don't worry about

501
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: why because they feel like they figured out why before

502
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: they snagged you.

503
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 5: That's right.

504
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 4: There's that classic line you often see in these types

505
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 4: of thrillers where it's like if.

506
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 5: They wanted us dead, we'd be dead.

507
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 4: We'd be dead already, you know, Like there is that

508
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: certain amount of level that comes with the fact that

509
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 4: that you are in captivity and being kept alive for reasons,

510
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 4: so you have the very least amount of leverage you

511
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 4: could hope for. But it is something, Yeah, it is.

512
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: And it also could be as simple as your questioners

513
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 3: believing that they already know the answers to the questions

514
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: they are going to ask you, right, they just need

515
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 3: you to say it, or they want you to sign something. Also,

516
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 3: never sign anything, I mean, signe stuff for your regular life.

517
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: Don't be afraid of that, like a credit card slip

518
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: or whatever. But and this thing, don't sign stuff.

519
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: Oh, let's talk about it really quickly. Because in that

520
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,479
Speaker 2: same says training, he talks about at some point pretty

521
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: soon into your interrogation, they attempt to get you to

522
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: sign something, and they'll use something simple like, hey, I

523
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: bet you're really thirsty. I'll give you this drink. All

524
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: you gotta do is sign this, you know, and like

525
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: someone will come in gently at some point and offer

526
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: you things for a quick signature at the moment like

527
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: the height of your discomfort yeah.

528
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: And then that goes into the mental hacks of forcing compliance,

529
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 3: putting somebody in a kobayashi maru situation where there's no

530
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 3: correct answer, there's no way to not comply, or then

531
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: also getting you to do it's almost like little salesperson tactics,

532
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 3: like saying, here, we'll give you this water. I know

533
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 3: you don't want to sign anything, but just hold this

534
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: pen for a second. I'm giving you this pen. I

535
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 3: want you to hold this pen, so just say yes

536
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 3: and take the pin. That happens, and it's effective because

537
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 3: as accumulative, it accumulates in your mind. Right, the habit

538
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: of saying yes and comply. Is this your jacket. That's

539
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: one of the examples from an SAS video and it's

540
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 3: clearly the guy's jacket. But if he says yes, then

541
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 3: he's starting to comply. And every time you break that seal,

542
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: it's a little bit easier and more tempting to say

543
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 3: yes to another thing, and that yes is always going

544
00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 3: to escalate. But at party's I mean, but like the

545
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: confirming information thing, guys, that's what gets mean because that

546
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: can be so tricky in an interrogation. They already they say,

547
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 3: they already know the answer, right. They'll ask you something

548
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 3: that you know they know and that you can confirm,

549
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 3: like is this your cousin Janet? Didn't Janet live in

550
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: far rockaway New York. They might not be threatening Janet yet,

551
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 3: although that could be implied. But they're getting you. It's

552
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 3: all about getting you to say yes. And the most

553
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: important thing to remember at this point is the following

554
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: you say, good news, you're alive, aster caveat. You are

555
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: probably only alive due to possible information you possess or

556
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 3: your larger propagandistic value. So every time you disclose information,

557
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 3: you lose a little bit of that value. Does that

558
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: makes sense?

559
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 5: Does?

560
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: I'm having a really disturbing picture kind of in my mind,

561
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: and I don't want to believe that we could ever

562
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: get there again, especially here in the United States. But

563
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 2: the concept that anyone, you, me, anyone could get picked

564
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: up at some point and be forced under these kinds

565
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: of conditions an attempt to get information about like where

566
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: your family is. Yes, right, And that feels so World

567
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: War two to me, so in the past, so it

568
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: can't happen again. But we know that that kind of

569
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: thing has occurred again since World War Two. And in

570
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: other parts of the world, not always where the US

571
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: is engaged in stuff, but sometimes, but just the concept

572
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: of information about where your family is hiding. I don't know,

573
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: there's something so insidious and terrifying to that, But now

574
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: I can kind of see it happening.

575
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: Oh one hundred percent. I mean, think of the various

576
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 3: red scares here in the United States, or think of

577
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 3: the multiple genocides, right and the operations of secret police.

578
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: Stuff like that is happening in Iran right now, and

579
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: it may be on the way to an even more

580
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: extreme degree here in the United States sooner than we

581
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: would like to think. History does a lot of things,

582
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: but originality is not one of humanity's strong suits.

583
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, especially when we keep repeating the same mistakes of

584
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 4: the past.

585
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's one of those things that maybe

586
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: a lot of us because of popular culture. See, someone

587
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: who would be undergoing this kind of interrogation would be

588
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: a part of some military group, right, or some elite

589
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: you know, like an SAS or Navy seals or someone

590
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: you know, a soldier who's behind enemy lines or something.

591
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: But it just realizing that it doesn't have to be that,

592
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: and it could even be the government of a country

593
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: that you are in and you're a citizen of could

594
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 2: be subjecting you to this.

595
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely yeah. And especially in a case of moral panic,

596
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: you might just have misfortune of carrying a very similar

597
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 3: name to a suspected criminal, you know what I mean,

598
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 3: and then you have to say, oh, I'm not that

599
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: Ben Bolan, and they're like, that's what you would say,

600
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 3: isn't it.

601
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: Well, Ben Boland would definitely say that.

602
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 4: I mean, guys, I think we maybe take for granted

603
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 4: a little bit the ease with which we're able to

604
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 4: traverse different borders, you know, and travel internationally with very

605
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 4: little incidents.

606
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 5: I've certainly never been detained or anything like that.

607
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 4: Is there a world though, whereas things get a little

608
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 4: more heated between our country and other countries where we

609
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 4: might not enjoy that same level of you know, undisturbed

610
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 4: border crossing.

611
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 5: Absolutely yeah, I feel it. I feel it coming.

612
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 3: Absolutely moving toward a what we call a multi polar world,

613
00:34:54,080 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 3: sort of balkanizes the current international order. For instance, I

614
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 3: know of a friend who a while back was traveling

615
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 3: to Japan as a foreigner, right and this was not

616
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: the US national but at the time they had to

617
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: upon arrival in Japan, they had to provide the address

618
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 3: of where they were staying. This is not uncommon in

619
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: a lot of countries, run into it in the UK,

620
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 3: for instance, But they address they provided, this is a

621
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 3: somewhat thrifty person. The address they provided was in a

622
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 3: very bad slum because it was the cheapest hostile in

623
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 3: the area. It's heavily associated with criminal activity. So this person,

624
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 3: because of that address of a place that were staying

625
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 3: at for like a week or two. Because of that address,

626
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 3: they were detained for further questioning by the Japanese state.

627
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: And from what I understand, this was not a horror show.

628
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 3: This was more like your buddies checking in and going okay, sir,

629
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 3: so you're staying at this hostel and he's like, yeah, okay,

630
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: you know why we stopped you, right, that's a terrible neighborhood.

631
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, frankly, even the most innocuous encounter with

632
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 4: a passport control agent is a mild interrogation.

633
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I I love an audition and I feel

634
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 3: bad you guys when I feel like I worked hard

635
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 3: on being cool and having good answers and then they're

636
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 3: just like, oh you again, all right, go ahead.

637
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 4: Well, but I even have felt I've even felt a

638
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 4: little gun shy in the situation where I'm like almost

639
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 4: like am I.

640
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 5: Doing something bad?

641
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 4: Like I just feel almost like, you know, I've I've

642
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: almost stuttered a few times when asked who I'm going

643
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 4: to see, where I met them, how I know them,

644
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 4: Where am I staying?

645
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 5: How long am I going to be here? I have

646
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 5: found myself, but I don't know. I wasn't ready for this, you.

647
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 4: Know, and i've ever you know, had any issues, But

648
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 4: I do feel that sense, and I just wonder how

649
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 4: I would react given a much more aggressive form of Yeah.

650
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 3: That's the thing too, because this is interesting when those

651
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 3: folks are asking you questions. Just real quick pro tip

652
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 3: for anybody there. The information is secondary to how you

653
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 3: react a million part. That's why. Yeah, if you've ever

654
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: been put on the spot, maybe if you're not, if

655
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 3: you're not already kind of an extroverted person, then the

656
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 3: simplest questions can leave you feeling like a deer in

657
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 3: the headlights, like oh, what day in August is your birthday? Like, oh, my.

658
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 4: Birthday, I have to say this out loud and say

659
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 4: when you.

660
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 3: Say something like I do have a birthday.

661
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was born a human right.

662
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 4: And it's funny too, because a lot of times those

663
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 4: agents they ask people these things sort of randomly. You'll

664
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 4: see people in front of you get a complete pass

665
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 4: zero back and forth, and then they get to you

666
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 4: and they ask you the questions.

667
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 5: You're like, what is it about me that make mean

668
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 5: you know? Worthy of these questions?

669
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: I'll tell you you did not pass the ocular pat down. No,

670
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 2: that's what happened. You gotta first gird yourself for the

671
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: ocular pat down.

672
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 4: Ye, your Lloyd's for being undressed.

673
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 2: Yes, that's then Mac will. Mac will look you up

674
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: and down and then back up a little bit and

675
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: then finally back up to your eyes. And once he

676
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 2: gets there, he will know if he needs to ask

677
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: you further question this.

678
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 3: I thought I thought Mac cleared him? Did you not

679
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 3: clear them? Uh? God? What a show? All right. So

680
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 3: what we're saying is, regardless of these situations, we'll get

681
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 3: into the very deep, painful water. If you are in

682
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 3: an interrogation situation, you don't have legal counsel, say as

683
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 3: little as possible, don't say anything, because if they were

684
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 3: going to kill you, they already would have. And if

685
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: they're dragging stuff out, it means they still want something

686
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 3: for you. This is where we get to the methods

687
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 3: of things like survival, evasion, resistance, and escape or sare.

688
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 4: Really quickly ben Just sticking with the international side of

689
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 4: things for a second, Ye, you are you entitled to

690
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 4: perhaps the representation from your local consulate or like or

691
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 4: are you just on your own like if you're not,

692
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 4: you know, in your home turf, like, do you still

693
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 4: get to have some representation or at that point is

694
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 4: it kind of you know, every every traveler for themselves.

695
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: It's a great question depends. I mean, these are sovereign countries, right,

696
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 3: so you're playing in an away game. Typically if there

697
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 3: is a consulate or an embassy of your home nation

698
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 3: in that other nation, then you can request them for help.

699
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 3: You can request help from them, you can notify them. Hey,

700
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: this stuff went sideways, but their ability to intervene is

701
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 3: going to vary place by place. Especially you know, consider

702
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 3: if you are in a country that is hostile ale

703
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: to the United States already and the US doesn't have

704
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: an embassy there.

705
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 4: They're prerogative to even produce that person for your right.

706
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 3: You become a bargaining chip right likes as it has

707
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 3: happened so often in the DPRK or North Korea street name.

708
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 3: But then they'll contact a friendly embassy that does its

709
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 3: best to vicariously represent your country's interests. So for instance, surprise,

710
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 3: there's not a US embassy in Tehran in Iran, but

711
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 3: stuff goes through the Swiss embassy. So if you are

712
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 3: sol and you're beyond the reach of the embassy right

713
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 3: or beyond the reach of friendly forces. If you are

714
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 3: in the military, you'll be familiar with something called SAIR

715
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: again survival, evasion, resistance and escape. It's not the word SAIR,

716
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 3: which is different.

717
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 4: And this is a type of training right school they

718
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 4: call it, especially if you're like in the deep cover

719
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 4: operative or I believe I first heard of this on

720
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 4: the show lion S, which is an excellent, you know

721
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 4: kind of military sort of spy ops, you know, black

722
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 4: ops kind of show. And going to sear school is

723
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 4: where you're like put through the ringer. It is considered

724
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 4: like the gnarliest of training scenarios.

725
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty brutal.

726
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 4: Like they beat the out of you as part of

727
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 4: your training to make sure you won't crack.

728
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, once you get the level C for sure. I mean,

729
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 3: so this is a training regimen that was first deployed

730
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: by our British cousins in World War Two. Initially, what

731
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 3: they were trying to figure out is this, how do

732
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: we help soldiers or pilots especially who find themselves stranded

733
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 3: behind enemy lines. We got to teach them four basic things. First,

734
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:49,720
Speaker 3: survival makes sense, all about finding food, water, shelter, and cops. Second, evasion, hide,

735
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 3: don't die on this hill, run away, get in the woods,

736
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 3: run away, which is what you should. I mean, martial

737
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 3: arts supports evasion as well, avoid the fight if you can.

738
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 3: And then we get to resistance. This one sucks. Resistance

739
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 3: is the rough one. That's about fighting when you have

740
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 3: to going back to evasion, resist the interrogation so long

741
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 3: as possible, and trying to run out that clock until

742
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 3: you reach the final letter. Escape. Escape is the dream escape.

743
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 4: When the real dream is extraction, Like the real dream

744
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 4: is like holding out until you are rescued, you know,

745
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 4: and people know where you are.

746
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 5: That is the catbird seat.

747
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 4: But oftentimes that's not going to be the case, and

748
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 4: you're going to absolutely be on your own.

749
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. Extraction is sort of the business class

750
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 3: of escape to one. Here we go, Yes, exactly, you sweet.

751
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: The really scary part to me about all this is

752
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: that when you sign up for something like SAS, which

753
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: oh in extras I remembered, guys, it's super army soldiers,

754
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 2: that's what he says it is, but it's actually that's

755
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: not at all what it is. But the scary thing

756
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 2: is that if you are known to have been captured

757
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 2: or at least, let's say, lost behind enemy lines during

758
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 2: some kind of operation that probably shouldn't be happening or

759
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: isn't officially happening. Uh, then it's that thing we've we

760
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: discussed before. I can't remember what episode it was Ben

761
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 2: in Noll, but we talked about that denial of operations

762
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: that will.

763
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 3: Maybe disavowed like the unwarned access, disavowment of official involvement.

764
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: So I would just argue that that's why the E

765
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: is escape and not extraction.

766
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 3: Escape is the is the broader term. But yes, if disavowed,

767
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 3: which can't happen, and these guys know what they're signing

768
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 3: up for. If disavowed, you are Kevin McAllister, I'm alone,

769
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: you know what I mean?

770
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 5: All right? Peez? What love her? So much and yes, yeah,

771
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 5: you're definitely doing this one.

772
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 3: Right if you can still move your hands. Yeah, But

773
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 3: the important caveat so here in the US, you'll hear

774
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 3: about this being taught on an ABC tier, meaning that

775
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 3: the at the most extreme levels, Like we're saying, your

776
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: trainers can do a lot of mean stuff to you.

777
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 3: Some of it might not sound so bad if you're

778
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 3: just watching the YouTube video. We say, oh, they can

779
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 3: hit you with an open hand, but not a closed fist.

780
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 3: These guys slap hard just to be good, like you

781
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 3: slap pretty hard. And they also they also are trained

782
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 3: to deliver physical damage to the same place each time.

783
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 3: So no matter how hard you are or how much

784
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 3: punishment you think you could take, you can shrug it.

785
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 3: Maybe you can shrug it a first slap, right, But

786
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: then what if it's the same thing repeatedly, same area, right?

787
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 3: And then they say okay, and by the way, we're

788
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: also going to start slapping your friend and hurting them

789
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: because you didn't comply. And while they're hurting your friend,

790
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: they say, look at that guy, it's his fault. We

791
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: don't want to do this.

792
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 4: Well to great point, Ben, because so much of this

793
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 4: is not only about are there to go hand in

794
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 4: hand not only about resisting physical pain and abuse, but

795
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 4: the emotional toll that can take on you over time,

796
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 4: and the way physical abuse or torture or whatever attacks

797
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 4: on others is then used and weaponized against you, and

798
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 4: the idea of like not allowing that to seep into

799
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 4: your psyche. So it's not only about hardening yourself physically,

800
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 4: it's about how do you, you know, process these things emotionally.

801
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 2: It really is like ninety nine percent mental game. When

802
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: it comes to all the things we're about to talk about,

803
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: including being slapped, they we we I know if you've

804
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 2: mentioned it before, but you guys have heard of power slap, right, dude.

805
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 4: It comes up on my feet all the time when

806
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 4: they like powder their hands all up and whenever they

807
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 4: get the slap, you to see this cloud of like

808
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 4: the hand chalk just exploding and then the boy they

809
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 4: hit the deck.

810
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 5: Sometimes it is brutal stuff.

811
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: It's the Dana White you know UFC competition. Yeah, it

812
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: is actually Dana White and it's actually their thing, which,

813
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 2: by the way, according to this you can see Wolverine

814
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 2: take on the Crazy Hawaiian On March sixth, Wolverine's.

815
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 4: Got an edge though, Guys, he's out of manteam clause.

816
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 4: I wouldn't want to go slap by that guy.

817
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 3: He had a skeleton too. That a mantium skull means

818
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 3: you'll break your hands slap them exactly.

819
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: But just just to read your point, Ben, that slapping

820
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: isn't maybe what you think it is.

821
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, the real slap is not as cool as you

822
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 3: know slap jokes. So we we also know that people

823
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 3: have died in trading like this. It's just unfortunate, but

824
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 3: we have to admit this is serious enough that there

825
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 3: is a rate of attrition, a fatal rate of attrition

826
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 3: that can occur. And in this situation. Again, it's all

827
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 3: to familiarize you with the possibility of this happening in

828
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 3: real life. So if you are in a real life

829
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 3: situation like this, your only value is propaganda or information.

830
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 3: The information you have may be perishable. You want to

831
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 3: deny it for as long as possible. But at the

832
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: same time, you want to appear to be reluctantly compliant

833
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 3: and to appear to be mentally and physically infirm. Sadly,

834
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 3: appearing to be mentally and physically infirm is not going

835
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 3: to be difficult after seventy two hours without sleepwater or food.

836
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, and of brutal beatings.

837
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 4: And I just want to add one more time, the

838
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 4: tailor shared and show Lion asked the very first season,

839
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 4: it just does such an incredible job of like dramatizing

840
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 4: all of the stuff that we're talking about here, Like,

841
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 4: I'd never really understood how psychotic this stuff is until

842
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 4: I saw that season of television.

843
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 5: So dude, check that out if you're interested.

844
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 3: I am going to look that up. To the mental

845
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 3: game stuff, we also see things like burn this flag

846
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 3: and you can have whatever you want, or something like hey,

847
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: we can feed you, but we're going to feed you.

848
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 5: Pork or poop.

849
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 3: Right, very very nasty stuff that has been to attack

850
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 3: somebody's core identity and values. That makes it easier to comply.

851
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 3: I what say we take a quick break for word

852
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 3: from our sponsors, and maybe we get into some of

853
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 3: the helpful rules for resisting interrogation. We have returned. Here

854
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 3: are the rules. One, do not make eye contact. Ever,

855
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 3: they will ask you to look at them, Don't do it.

856
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 4: Is it because they can see into your soul?

857
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 5: Is it sort of like a poker faced kind of situation?

858
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 4: Like because if you're in if you're an experienced interrogator,

859
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 4: you can learn a lot from the eyes. Or is

860
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 4: it a power dynamic thing, which I guess figures into

861
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 4: my first question.

862
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's both, at least because the folks

863
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 3: we were researching for this, professional interrogators from all sorts

864
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 3: of places. They put a lot of emphasis on the

865
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 3: importance of making eye contact with a victim or a detaining.

866
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 4: You can't hide your lion eyes, that's for sure.

867
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 2: I wonder, and I don't have it in front of me,

868
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 2: or I didn't find this in my research, you guys,

869
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 2: But I wonder if it is to prevent the person

870
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: being interrogated from humanizing the person sitting across from them,

871
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: or identifying with them in some way, or finding, you know,

872
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 2: that connection, because when you make eye contact with someone,

873
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 2: there is like a there's a connection that occurs, the window.

874
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 5: To the soul.

875
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 4: There's a certain amount that you cannot truly shield from

876
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 4: experienced you know, well experience or inexperience, like the idea

877
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 4: of making deep eye contact is one of the most

878
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 4: intimate things you can do with say a partner or

879
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 4: on a date, you know, with a friend, because you

880
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 4: really do have this unfiltered view into the humanity of

881
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 4: that person.

882
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: And if you're trained to read micro expressions, then the

883
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 3: eyes and the muscles around them are a gold mine

884
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,879
Speaker 3: because people can people can have enough control over their

885
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 3: larger body language or their larger facial expressions. But if

886
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 3: you are a specifically trained interrogator, and if you've had

887
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 3: previous experience, then you can tell a lot by little

888
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 3: twitches or by the unconscious directions in which an eye moves.

889
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 4: What even like the constriction or dilation of the pupils

890
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 4: that can come with certain emotional responses, not just like drugs,

891
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 4: like literally adrenaline flooding your system because you're telling a

892
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 4: lie or that you're something triggers you in a certain way.

893
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 4: I believe that could cause some of these unintentional or

894
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 4: subconscious not sound quite the right word, but just you know,

895
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 4: literally physiological reactions that someone in the know could interpret.

896
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, might just really thought it would be a good

897
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 2: thing for I. Yeah, that's shows how a naive I am.

898
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 2: I really thought it would be a good thing for

899
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: someone in that situation to make that connection with their

900
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 2: you know, potential torture or their interrogator to like show

901
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 2: in some way I am also human. I am you know,

902
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: like that kind of thing. But I think if you're

903
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 2: dealing with someone that is, yeah, that kind.

904
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 4: Of beyond that kind of influence, right. I truly think

905
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 4: that there's no version of the world where you are

906
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 4: a human or where they're going to like empathize.

907
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 5: That's just you.

908
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, And if you're a proper interrogator, you have sort

909
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 4: of had the empathy beaten out of you in many ways.

910
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 4: And that's a feature, not a bug, right right.

911
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, well said, you have to be able to emulate

912
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 3: that empathy or rapport. So the most some of the

913
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 3: most successful interrogations in history are not the waterboarding ones.

914
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 3: They're not the ones where you torture someone and they

915
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 3: give you information. They're the ones where, say, someone is

916
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 3: tortured by another one of your coworkers, let's call them,

917
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 3: and later you come in as the good cop. This

918
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 3: is when you establish rapport, like hey, look at me, man,

919
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 3: all right, this is things can get out of hand.

920
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 3: None of us wanted to be here today. I would

921
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 3: like to give you some orange juice. As a matter

922
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 3: of fact, I will. All you have to do is

923
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 3: help me help you out a little bit, all right,

924
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 3: or else I'm going to have to leave, and the

925
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 3: other guy his shifts up next. So that kind of

926
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 3: rapport building can be very effective, but it's also an artifice.

927
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 3: The interrogators to those points don't really care pass getting

928
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 3: the information. And if you do have to speak, which

929
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 3: you might have to save your life, only repeat what

930
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 3: you said initially. Just like if you are being interviewed

931
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 3: by police, they will ask you the same question about

932
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 3: the same events multiple different ways because they want you

933
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 3: to trip up. They want some part of your story

934
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 3: to differ from one iteration to the next. That's why

935
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,800
Speaker 3: you hear that old movie troupe about someone getting caught

936
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 3: by enemy forces and say name, ranked, serial number whatever.

937
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 3: But as silly as it sounds, there's truth to it.

938
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 3: You encounter semantic satiation, it becomes a mantra, and it

939
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 3: can even move you away a little bit from the

940
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 3: dire physical circumstances.

941
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 2: Question for the class, if we're just a regular old citizen,

942
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: what is our name, rank, serial number?

943
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 3: I would say pick three things that just stick with it. Social,

944
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 3: your social If you really want to be a jerk,

945
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 3: just tell them your vin.

946
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 5: For your car, citizen or a podcaster. I think it would.

947
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: Be a driver's license pavilion.

948
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, something like that. Also, if you get to the

949
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 3: point where there's hard questioning, your interrogation is going to

950
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 3: be increasingly tailored to give you the most nightmarish time possible.

951
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 3: So what do we mean by this. We mean that

952
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 3: if you have a social media footprint that will be researched,

953
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 3: All of your known associations or interactions will be researched.

954
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 3: Any any medical dependencies you might have, like a heart

955
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 3: medication or something, or insulin, they're going to know about

956
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 3: that too, and they're all they're going to use all

957
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 3: this information to squeeze whatever they can out of you.

958
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 3: So like, how silly could this be? Or how terrifying?

959
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 3: In one case, and this was on the I want

960
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 3: to say this was on the US or British side.

961
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 3: In one case, they knew a detainee had an historic,

962
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 3: deep phobia of bugs, so they locked them in a

963
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 3: metal coffin. They filled it with insects, not the kind

964
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 3: that could you poison him or anything, and they locked

965
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 3: him in there for three days because they knew how

966
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 3: to tailor that nightmare toward him. So as you progress further,

967
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 3: they're going to be able to say like oh this

968
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: guy is terrified of touching metal, or like oh this

969
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 3: person is something simple.

970
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 4: They would menace me with birds, Ben. That's what happened,

971
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 4: you know, the escalation of bird menacing once they got

972
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 4: to like eagle say, i'd I'd give them everything they

973
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 4: wanted to hear, just get that thing away from me.

974
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 3: Look, mister Brown, I don't want to put you back

975
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 3: in the room with the shoe bill.

976
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 4: Okay, I got to put you in that room unnatural

977
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 4: dinosaur ass creatures.

978
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, what do you want me to say? What do

979
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 5: you want me to say?

980
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 3: Right? Exactly?

981
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: Cute too.

982
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 3: I think I think they're a little bit sarcastic. I

983
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 3: think they've got a little bit of zest to them

984
00:55:55,600 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 3: because they if they like you, they will to you

985
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 3: when you bow to them, just like the deer at

986
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 3: Nara Park, And you can see videos of this. But

987
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 3: I think the way they bow is a little bit sassy.

988
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 3: I don't like that. Yeah, they share, they're making fun

989
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 3: of you, like, oh, this is your thing. I guess

990
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 3: I'll bow for you.

991
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 5: Just God forbid a cashuary.

992
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 4: Those things will gut you in a heartbeat.

993
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:23,399
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, shoe bilover a cassewary any day. They

994
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 3: shoe bills just seem like very sweet animals that look

995
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 3: like Pinister Star Wars villains.

996
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 4: Cashuaries are like the velociraptor of the of the Bird Kingdom.

997
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 5: Whatever.

998
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 3: They've got some stuff they need to unpack evolutionarily. But yeah,

999
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 3: so again we're saying composure always. Like we said, this

1000
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:46,720
Speaker 3: applies to passport control as well as deep interrogation. The

1001
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 3: interrogator is often not going to look for your overt vocalizations. Instead,

1002
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 3: the questioner is going to say, what are your micro expressions?

1003
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 3: Where your eyes moving when you talk about certain things,

1004
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 3: what's your posture? What's your sweat? And now days with

1005
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 3: the rollout of very affordable medical monitoring technology, you're probably

1006
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 3: also going to say, how did their heart rate change?

1007
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 3: When I asked them about this? Even if they didn't

1008
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 3: look at me, they didn't react. Why.

1009
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 4: We haven't even really talked about polygraph tests, so we

1010
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 4: certainly know those are incredibly fallible and increasingly.

1011
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 5: Less reliable.

1012
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yep, exactly.

1013
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 4: To your point, though, it almost might be a better

1014
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 4: value to just check their Apple watch, you know, and

1015
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 4: just see the elevated heart rate and you know when

1016
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 4: it spikes. On a particular question, I wanted to ask you, guys,

1017
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 4: what do you think it takes to make a good interrogator.

1018
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 4: Do you think that's something you like go out for

1019
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 4: like a football team, like is there something you're shooting for?

1020
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 4: Or do you get recognized as having the skill set

1021
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 4: to be a good interrogator?

1022
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 2: Psychopathy?

1023
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 5: There you go.

1024
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can say this surgence right and CEOs right

1025
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 3: when maybe one way to put it is through analogy.

1026
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 3: One of the guys who was the big whistleblower for

1027
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 3: the CIA's enhanced interrogation program the way he described being recruited,

1028
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 3: was already worked at the CIA, right, He already had

1029
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 3: loads of experience under his belt, and then he was

1030
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 3: invited along with thirteen other people to get certification in

1031
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 3: this kind of interrogation. And he's one of the only

1032
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 3: folks who said no, But the rest went on to

1033
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 3: commit war crimes. So an interrogator would ideally have a

1034
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 3: sense of mission, right, a greater good such that they

1035
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 3: can rationalize the horrific stuff they're going to do to people.

1036
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: They probably will also have an understanding like the dream

1037
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 3: interrogator will also have undergone some version of these tactics themselves,

1038
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 3: so they know they know the other side of the experience.

1039
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 3: And then they will also either have medical training or

1040
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 3: they'll have a medical expert on staff, maybe just out

1041
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 3: of frame to keep.

1042
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 4: Them alive, yes, right, to bring them back from the Yeah,

1043
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 4: you see, Yeah for sure. And you got to wonder too,

1044
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 4: if the mission part of it is almost tertiary, like

1045
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 4: there's a version of this where it's just people that

1046
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 4: really like hurting people.

1047
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 3: Definitely, that definitely exists. History seems to indicate that those

1048
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 3: guys actually don't make the best interrogators m because they're

1049
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 3: the idea of achieving information it self becomes secondary to

1050
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 3: their ghoulish love of harming others.

1051
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 5: That's a great point, Ben, I didn't think about them.

1052
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, they'll probably get results, but

1053
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 3: I don't know if you want someone gleefully getting those results,

1054
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 3: because then how dependable are they? Right? If you train

1055
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 3: a dog to bite, what's going to stop it from

1056
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:58,439
Speaker 3: biting you one day?

1057
00:59:58,600 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: Well?

1058
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 4: I mean, and you know, not to get back into

1059
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 4: the ice of it all, but it certainly starts to

1060
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 4: you start to see that level of what are we

1061
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 4: looking for in an ice recruits as more looking for

1062
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 4: people that are just like wanting to hurt people or

1063
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 4: wanting to you know, live out some of their sociopathic

1064
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 4: kind of fantasies. We've talked often about, like off Mike

1065
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 4: at least, like what happened to the Proud Boys? How

1066
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 4: come they're not out there doing the thing anymore? It's

1067
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 4: because they're all they're all iced up now, and those

1068
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 4: are folks that are probably have a mission, sure, but

1069
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 4: they also just want to hurt people who don't look

1070
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 4: like them.

1071
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 3: I don't think you should give cause players real guns.

1072
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 3: Don't know why that became a hot take, but the

1073
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 3: this is the thing to repetition escalation. We talked a

1074
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 3: little bit about this, asking the same questions over and

1075
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 3: over again until you can't even really understand what they're saying,

1076
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 3: because that's semantic satiation. They're breaking you down. Semantic satiation

1077
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 3: is when you take a word or a phrase and

1078
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 3: you just repeated it repeated and repeated. Eventually it loses

1079
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 3: all meaning to your brain. It's a fun thing to

1080
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 3: try at home in safe circumstances, but it can be

1081
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 3: really brutal experience and interrogation. That's why you're mantra your

1082
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 3: one phrase, whatever it is, that's why it's so important.

1083
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 3: It becomes your resistance tactic. Now you just lose yourself

1084
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 3: mentally in that phrase.

1085
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 2: I just want to remind everybody that everything we're talking

1086
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 2: in Hero, everything that's happening, at least with the SAS training.

1087
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 2: What they do is they make sure you have been

1088
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 2: awake for thirty six hours before they begin the interrogation,

1089
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 2: and that means you are at least at stage two

1090
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 2: of sleep deprivation, if not stage three, where hallucinations are beginning.

1091
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 2: So all of this other stuff, the effects of all

1092
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 2: the mental game stuff are enhanced, they're amplified, they're intensified.

1093
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 2: And that sleep deprivation thing, we should we should talk

1094
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 2: about it more at some point. I think we did

1095
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: a whole episode on it when we talked about and

1096
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 2: enhance an interrogation. But it is so it's such a

1097
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 2: dirty thing to do to somebody, to the mental faculties

1098
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 2: of somebody. And I'm talking sorry, I'm talking a little weird, y'all.

1099
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 2: I've been eating these Thai red chilies on purpose to

1100
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 2: see if I can resist drinking the milk that I've got.

1101
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 5: Sound Do you sound great?

1102
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 4: Man? I never would have known you're such a heat seeker.

1103
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 2: So much the live of happening, But I'm trying to

1104
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 2: do it just to see as we're talking about these

1105
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 2: intense things, because it is so like I'm trying to

1106
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 2: put myself in that position and imagine some of these

1107
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 2: horrific things, and could could you be mentally strong enough?

1108
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 2: And I still I don't think you could be.

1109
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's difficult to know how you would react

1110
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 3: until you're in that situation. And there are you know,

1111
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 3: the majority of people who end up being interrogated, it's

1112
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 3: the first time in their lives that happens for real. Right,

1113
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 3: So you might have training out the wazoo, and thank

1114
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 3: goodness you have it, but you are going that training

1115
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 3: is still not going to be the same thing as

1116
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 3: the real experience. I mean, that's why look extremely spooky dangerous.

1117
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 3: People long ago figured out that despite all the tricks

1118
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 3: and tactics, there are some folks who simply cannot be

1119
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 3: coerced by personal harm, right or by mental attacks. So

1120
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 3: their solution then becomes to find an external source of vulnerability,

1121
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 3: which is much more important like, sure, you might die

1122
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 3: for your country, but if you could save your child,

1123
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 3: or your spouse or one of your platoon pals by

1124
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 3: just signing your propaganda statement, then why wouldn't you?

1125
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 4: Does come a point where it's the only.

1126
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 3: Choice, and the interrogator always seeks compliance. Nobody really knows

1127
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 3: how they're going to act in that situation until they've

1128
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 3: been in it. What you can do, this is funny.

1129
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 3: This reminds us of the Simple Sabotage Field Manual. What

1130
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 3: you can't do is fate compliance subtle means of resistance.

1131
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 3: I think we all remember. The funniest part of the

1132
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 3: Simple Sabotage Manual is where it tells you how to

1133
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 3: be just an absolute jerk and a drip at work.

1134
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 3: They're like, always talk longer than you need to, always

1135
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 3: say there should be another meeting about a thing. When

1136
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 3: confronted about this, weap and say that you have been attacked.

1137
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 3: That's the thing. You Acting sickly can be helpful in

1138
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 3: these situations, and you won't have to act that sick really,

1139
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 3: because you'll already be pretty sick. Read a lot about fainting.

1140
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 3: Apparently fainting is a tactic that a lot of people

1141
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 3: would use just to end questioning right and maybe get

1142
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 3: some time to recharge. But if you try in front

1143
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 3: of the wrong people, they're just going to beat the

1144
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 3: crap out or like dump cold water.

1145
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 5: On you or something.

1146
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 4: I mean, there's any number of ways to get you

1147
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 4: to snap out of it. You just mentioned Compliance, Ben,

1148
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 4: and it just reminded me. I just want to give

1149
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 4: one more film recommendation that he does a great job

1150
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 4: of dramatizing a lot of these things that we're talking about,

1151
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 4: and also describes very well the slippery slope of compliance

1152
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 4: on the part of an individual being faced with an

1153
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 4: authority figure telling them to do horrible things. It's a

1154
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 4: movie called Compliance by Craig Zobel, and it's about a

1155
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 4: fast food worker who gets accused of theft and her

1156
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 4: boss essentially tortures and interrogates her at the behest of

1157
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 4: an anonymous phone caller who says he's a cop and

1158
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 4: instructs the manager on various ways of getting the truth

1159
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 4: quote unquote out of her. And it's a very odd

1160
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 4: way of framing this kind of thing, but I think

1161
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 4: it does a really fantastic job. It's not a pleasant watch,

1162
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 4: but I think it's very educational.

1163
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 2: Is that based on a real thing?

1164
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 5: I think it is.

1165
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 3: It is that also reminds me of my absolute favorite

1166
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 3: episode of Law and Order SVU, season nine, episode seventeen, Authority,

1167
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 3: featuring guest star Robin Williams. Oh wow, spoiler, folks, whenever

1168
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 3: there's a famous guest star, they usually did it right.

1169
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 3: I'm right about no offense to the writers. But authority

1170
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 3: is exactly the same thing. A guy is calling people

1171
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 3: and sort of hacking their minds and seeing how far

1172
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 3: they will go in ordinarily evil actions because they feel

1173
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 3: that they are complying with an authority. It's a very

1174
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 3: dangerous problem in humans.

1175
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 4: Just also sadly, and you know, disturbingly relevant with a

1176
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 4: lot of stuff that's going on in the world.

1177
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 2: Did I make the Emperor happy?

1178
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 6: Right?

1179
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 3: Exactly? So? Okay, you could also consider acting out a

1180
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 3: heart attack right or an eileptic seizure, But if you

1181
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 3: do that, you have to be convincing enough to persuade

1182
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 3: the interrogators. Don't attempt that stuff unless you know you

1183
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 3: can emulate the signs and then upon waking or whatever

1184
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 3: happens to you after being sickly, just repeat your mantra

1185
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 3: when they demand information, feel free to tell them half truths,

1186
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's like you're being questioned

1187
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 3: about your family to earlier example, you like, most people

1188
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 3: have a social media blueprint of some sort. Right, you

1189
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 3: have left traces of you on the internet, So they're

1190
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 3: gonna know about this, right they you know that they

1191
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 3: know part of your family lives in far rockaway New York.

1192
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 3: Maybe the interrogator pulls up an image of your cousin

1193
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 3: from their TikTok, ask where they're going next. False compliance

1194
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 3: in this case would be something like saying, I've heard

1195
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:51,479
Speaker 3: social media is a big deal.

1196
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 2: Nice. Have we thought about a lot of farting, like

1197
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 2: really really bad gas?

1198
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 3: People have literally their pa ants as a power purpose,

1199
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 3: and it's really difficult to do that.

1200
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 4: But I think Matt might be approaching that point with

1201
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 4: this pepper. That's going to be a hot one.

1202
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 3: I mean, this is this is the thing. Right, We've

1203
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 3: established the basics here. There's much more to get to

1204
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 3: check out our episodes on whether or not torture works.

1205
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 3: Spoiler depends on how you define working while you are alive.

1206
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:31,599
Speaker 3: You have to remember your propaganda value and your info

1207
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 3: value are perishable, so it's it's as perishable sometimes as

1208
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 3: a banana or an avocado. So your ultimate goal is escape.

1209
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 3: You can escape in a practical sense, right help arrives,

1210
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 3: you're extracted, but you if you're on your own, then

1211
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 3: you would have to be able to get out of

1212
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 3: an interrogation room than a hostile environment. Then somehow get

1213
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 3: to a friendly country or environment. So the one version

1214
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 3: of escape people you when they can't do the practical

1215
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 3: version is philosophical escape. Using that mantras, a milestone, counting

1216
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 3: your heads, the number of times you say the phrase

1217
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 3: to the interrogator. That'll help you keep track of time,

1218
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,640
Speaker 3: because also part of sleep deprivation. What makes it so

1219
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 3: devilishly effective is it removes your sense of the passage

1220
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 3: of time. They want you to forget how long you've

1221
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 3: been in a place.

1222
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 5: Well, and it makes you go insane.

1223
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:29,719
Speaker 3: Oh yes, oh yes. So hopefully you get home safe,

1224
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 3: Hopefully help is on the way. Why are we a

1225
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 3: critical thought conspiracy show exploring all of this, Well, as

1226
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 3: we've said throughout this episode, it is because right now

1227
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 3: a great many people in the United States are being

1228
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 3: interrogated without the protection of those amendments we mentioned earlier.

1229
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 3: Children do not know SARA tactics, and thank goodness, they

1230
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 3: should never have to. They should have ordinary childhoods. And

1231
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 3: if you live in the US right now, your constitutional

1232
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 3: rights are being eroded. If you don't have a billion

1233
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 3: dollars for the ear of Congress, you should start behaving

1234
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 3: as though you are going to be in some way

1235
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:07,759
Speaker 3: targeted lest.

1236
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 5: Your fork it too.

1237
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 4: I mean, in the earlier discussion of the whole ice

1238
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 4: aspect of this, even if you say, yeah, I'm a

1239
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 4: US citizen, or you have your papers but you don't

1240
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 4: have them on you, you may still be detained. And

1241
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 4: just by being detained, you are being thrown into a

1242
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 4: system that could take weeks, months longer to get you

1243
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 4: through the proper channels to get you out of it.

1244
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 4: And just by being in these detainment centers, these detention

1245
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 4: centers which we're gonna do episodes on or episode in

1246
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 4: the near future, you've already had your rights stripped to

1247
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 4: view you know, and you're and you're there, and that's

1248
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,720
Speaker 4: goin to the level of PTSD that that being in

1249
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 4: one of those places is going to cause. It's it's

1250
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 4: very hard to measure, and it's gonna stick with folks

1251
01:10:57,560 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 4: for the rest of their lives. Even if they are

1252
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 4: eventuallyquote unquote have their rights restored or they're.

1253
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 5: You know, they're released.

1254
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 4: The damage is done at that point, agreed.

1255
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 2: I would just say the vast majority of people aren't

1256
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 2: going to go through this, I don't think, and I.

1257
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 4: We are not trying to be scare mongering here. That's

1258
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 4: a very good point.

1259
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 2: But there are going to be people who go through this.

1260
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 2: Right just because you don't go through it there, it

1261
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 2: doesn't mean other people are not going through it. So

1262
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 2: I think that's maybe for me one of the most

1263
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 2: important things to keep in mind. I don't know. It

1264
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 2: could be helpful information, I think.

1265
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 3: And again, the at least for me and hopefully for

1266
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 3: all of us. Folks. Can we hope you are never

1267
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 3: in a situation remotely like this, and we do hope

1268
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 3: you realize, especially if you live in the United States,

1269
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 3: but other places well, your rights as resident are important

1270
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:03,919
Speaker 3: constitutional rights being eroded. For any rationale, it's a bad thing. Historically,

1271
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:06,320
Speaker 3: it's a big deal, and this is the stuff they

1272
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:08,600
Speaker 3: don't want you to know. Thank you so much for

1273
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 3: tuning in, folks. We would love to hear from you.

1274
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,639
Speaker 3: We've got some exciting stuff on the way. Also, please

1275
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 3: recommend some paranormal cryptid topics you'd like us to cover.

1276
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 3: You can find us online, You can call us on phone.

1277
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 3: You can always send us an email.

1278
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 5: If you would like to.

1279
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 4: Reach us on the internet, you can find us at

1280
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:30,240
Speaker 4: the handles Conspiracy Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff Show, depending on

1281
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,560
Speaker 4: your social media platform of choice.

1282
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 2: Our phone number is one eight to three three STDWYTK.

1283
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:40,559
Speaker 2: When you call in, it's a voicemail system. Give yourself

1284
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know if we can

1285
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 2: use your name and message on one of our listener

1286
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 2: mail episodes that show up in the podcast feed. If

1287
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 2: you instead want to send us an email, why not

1288
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 2: do that.

1289
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 5: We are the.

1290
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 3: Entities the read each piece of correspondence we receive. Be

1291
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:58,519
Speaker 3: well aware. Yeah it's out of raid. Sometimes the void

1292
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 3: rights back. We've got to in fact waiting right here

1293
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 3: for you, specifically you, I'll see you out here in

1294
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 3: the dark conspiracy.

1295
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 6: iHeartRadio dot com Stuff they Don't Want You to Know

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Speaker 6: is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.