WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 12 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.840 Hey, lead the listeners tag here. Last season on Lethal Lit, 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.240 you might remember I came to Hollow Falls on a 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:11.880 mission clearing my aunt Best's name and making sure justice 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.960 was finally served. But I hadn't counted on a rash 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.840 of new murders tearing apart the town. My mission put 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:24.480 myself and my friends in danger. Though it wasn't all bad, 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:28.920 I'm going to be realty tig I like you, but 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.280 now all signs point to a new serial killer in 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:36.240 Hollow Falls. If this game is just starting, you better 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:41.559 believe I'm gonna win. I'm tig Torres, and this is 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.720 Lethal Lit. Catch up on season one of the hit 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.280 murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit, a tig Torre's mystery out now, 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:50.840 and then tune in for all new thrills in season two, 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.400 dropping weekly starting February nine. Subscribe now to never miss 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:56.480 an episode. Listen to Leave the Lit on the I 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.840 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.560 Here's to the great American settlers. The millions of you 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.160 have settled for unsatisfying jobs because they pay the bills. 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.240 Of course, there is something else you could do if 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.319 you've got something to say, startup podcast with Spreaker from 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:18.960 my heart and unleash your creative freedom, maybe even earn 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.720 enough money to one day tell your old boss, Hey, 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:27.320 I'm no settler, I'm an explorer. Spreaker dot com, spr 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:32.400 e a k e R. Hustle on over Today. Conquer 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.480 your New Year's resolutions with the Before Breakfast podcast. In 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.119 each bite sized daily episode, you'll learn how to make 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.480 the most of your time with practical tools to help 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:42.840 you feel less busy and get more done. Listen to 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.480 Before Breakfast on the I Heart Radio app four wherever 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.920 you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.160 I wanted to let you know. This is a compiletion episode. 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.720 So every episode of the week that just happened is 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.560 here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:01.760 for you to listen to in a long stretch if 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.160 you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.360 day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you, 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:16.560 but you can make your own decisions. Whats What's? What's? 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.200 I'm Robert Evans, this is it could happen here? The 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:24.399 show that asks what's and also other questions. Um more 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.640 more more meaningful questions than that about you know, things 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.680 falling apart, fixing them all that good stuff with me 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:37.360 today as usual Garrison and Chris and as is currently unusual, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.079 but will be more usual every preceding month after this one. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:47.720 Our good friend st Andrew. St Andrew quite about but 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.560 it's fine. How are you doing today, Andrew? I'm good. 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.480 I'm good. You know, it's rainy, it's chill. It's better 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.480 than the kind of hot weather we've been getting lately. 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.800 So I'm good. Yeah, it's raining and chill here. But 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.680 seven months of the year. Uh, I think there's slightly 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:10.040 different uh climates in Portland, Oregon and Trinidad, probably, I've 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:15.120 been told. Um, so we have had you on a 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.799 couple of weeks back to talk about solar punk, and 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.680 we're gonna be bringing you back on about twice a 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.520 month to talk about, um, whatever the hell you want 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.400 to talk about. And so I'm going to now hand 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.520 the episode over to you, um and trust like a 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.880 little lamb that you'll lead me somewhere beautiful and filled 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:39.320 with good forage. Yes, sunshine, rainbows, the Promised Land. Yeah. Okay, 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:44.880 So I think we've all noticed that the environments this 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:51.000 movement kind of sucks jumping into it has not done 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.880 the things that has not accomplished. It's been around for 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.120 like over half a century actually really more than that, 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:04.440 and you know, where are we know? You know? Um, 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.600 of course we do have to confront and acknowledge that, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.040 like there's the s C where oil company has literally 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.320 suppressed a whole bunch of information and you know, co 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.600 opted like a lot of the earlier movements and stuff. 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:21.200 But we've kind of known for a while now and 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.520 we are still here, So it's like what gives you know? Um, 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:29.039 I think there's kind of an interesting phenomenon that I 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.920 wanted to talk about today, um known as soft climate 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.279 change denial. So are you're familiar with that or what 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:40.600 you're thinking is based on foot impressions? Um, I mean, yeah, 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.360 I've heard the term. I would think it's sort of um, 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:47.440 I mean a number of different things, including the idea 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.359 that like, well there's nothing we can do, so nothing 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:55.400 should be done, you know, mm hmm yeah what what 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.599 about your garrison? Yeah? Most of my understanding of the 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:03.359 term is like someone like saying they like, know, the 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.240 climate change is the thing, like they recognize that, but 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:13.080 they are kind of more in denial of what solutions 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.960 can be done to really change anything that's generated understanding 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.440 of the term when I see it like online or something, Yeah, 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.479 what about your Chris, Yeah, I usually see it. It's 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.320 it's like it's usually in the context of people, you know, 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.240 you can in the US, there's the whole um. There's 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.880 whole political factions whose entire thing is saying, like, we 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.120 believe in science, and then they'll go talk about like 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.200 how much they believe in climate change and then two 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:46.320 seconds later and around there like signings. Yeah, so that 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:51.479 that's that's that's my understanding of it, right, Yeah, according 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:56.640 to everyone's favorites source um Wikipedia, soft climate change denial 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.120 is a seat of mind acknowledging the existence of a 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:04.040 woman in the abstract what remaining to some extent, impartial, 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:09.680 psychological or intellectual denihilism about its reality or impact. And 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:11.960 something I was spoken about in my channel in my 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.240 most recent video where I was talking with the different 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.320 facets of sula punk. You know what sula punk is, 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.880 what it needs, um, things that can probably potentially drag 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.960 down the soula punk movement, and things that people have 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.839 been using to try to drag it down because so 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.359 the punk is kind of building in popularity, and with 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.159 anything that builds in popularity, there are attempts from all 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.240 sorts of angles to co opt it and to repackage 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.600 it and com modify it and all those things. So 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:44.640 I've kind of noticed with the Sula punk phenomenon that 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.800 there's this effort by people who professed to care about 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.800 the climate and stuff to try to push it away 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:59.680 from more radical directions towards something more appealing and appeasing 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.680 to the status school into the system UM. And I 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.520 mean according to the Wikipedia definition, you know, it's they 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.120 call it a state of mind. I think it's also 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:13.480 like an implicit philosophy that undergodes like entire groups and 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.320 entire movements. You know, so like for example, obviously you 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.720 know in effects individuals where you know, people will um 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.680 miscalculated it's risks and think that climb climate change is 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.680 just extra storms or something. But then they also like 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:33.320 people are really the movements that would neglect its urgency 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:40.440 with just these platitudes and these um direction less actions 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:46.840 that just south like this kind of middling reformism um, 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.600 like they underestimate the extent of social change required to 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.880 like mitigate climate change, so basically don't seek to change 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:56.600 it s out of school, but just to sort of 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.080 tweak it ever so slightly to like capitalism with the 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.280 carbon tax or something. Yeah. Um. And then of course 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.680 they're people who kind of straddle that that fence, or 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.560 maybe it's more of a spectrum between soft climb change 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.360 nile and hard clim change nile, where they might overestimate 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.240 the extent of scientific uncertainty, so they might think that, oh, well, 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.880 you know, um, yeah, colob warming is happening, but we 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.800 don't exactly know how much it's going to change the 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.320 climate or how much it's impacting our lives and that 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:31.880 kind of thing, so they basically turn it into something 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:36.199 that's still up for debate, you know. And that's why 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.760 I say kind of straddles that line between soft line 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:43.000 and hard line, because obviously the hard climb change nihilists 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.040 they're just like, oh, well, you know, it doesn't exist, 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.360 or if it does exist, humans don't closet if you 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.520 and still course there's nothing we can do that kind 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.800 of thing. Have you all had like experiences with soft 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:58.240 climb change nil like and you wouldn't personal organizing? Oh yeah, yeah, 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.400 I would say, so I don't care ard um. I mean, 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.079 it's kind of a thing you encounter constantly in American 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:11.760 politics because it's it's really like often times your best option, uh, 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.480 in terms of like it's that or the people who 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:20.360 say that talking about climate change is socialism. Yeah, you know. 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.640 So I was in verminal Studies mature for most of 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.920 college and then I decided not to do it, and 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.559 then I got like a minor instead because like one 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.240 class often a long story, but you know, it was 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:40.720 interesting seeing it there because like, you know, there there 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.000 were basically like two possible reactions to learning that one 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:48.400 was like people who you know what one was you 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.240 get incredibly depressed and that's what I did or and 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.760 then the the second one was people would you know 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.040 and these people who like actually you know, you know, 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:57.800 I mean these are rebial studies mais right, Like these 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:59.720 people have spent a lot of time studying this stuff, 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.520 and they kind of like, I don't know, this is 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:09.000 almost like like this kind of intellectual retreat where you 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.960 could see people businessly just like convincing themselves that like 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.000 somehow this would be okay, and they'd like, I don't know, 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.640 people would just get like completely obsessed with like electoral 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.360 maps and you're like no, no no, no, no, no no, okay, okay, 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:21.560 if if if we win exactly this number of seats 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.600 in this year, then like we can we can start 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.199 doing carbon credits or like, I don't know, it was 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.960 it was. It was really interesting to watch because it 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.520 was like it was it was I mean, because like 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.120 I think I think that there's there's like there's very 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.400 there's bad faith versions of it, and then I think 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:38.960 there's also versions of it that are just sort of 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.959 like people genuinely not want to accept, yeah, like the 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:44.880 what's necessary to stop this? And so they're sort of 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.839 like that, well, they can't even really like think about 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.400 what's necessary because because of all the education system works, 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.040 and just I could go on like long runs about 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.439 the education system. It really it really really, um it 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.320 really it's people's ability to think outside of like this 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.160 very very strict box of possibilities because you know, so 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:11.480 much just left out of UM for example, history classes 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.960 and soone just left out of UM really all the subjects. 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:21.440 There's this very clear ideology that you're expected to come 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.800 out of the education system with. And so even when 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:28.120 you reach academia and high education and stuff. You're still 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.920 stuck with that mode of thinking. And even as you're 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:36.000 presented with all this new information, because your brain currently 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:40.120 like handle like the great extent of what climate change is, 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:42.360 you know, it kind of retreats into this sort of 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.920 simple kind of all we just need to vote, because 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.800 voting is all I know. Voting is a tool to do. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.760 Voting is politics, and politics is voting. That's the extent 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.360 of it, right. Yeah, It's like this weird form of 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.760 self press servation that people need to do in order 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.880 to kind of like keep their keep them from in 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.400 their mind, you know, like spiral ling out of control 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.160 because this is the only thing that you know, they have. 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:12.360 They need to focus on their own life right now 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.800 and their own current problems, and that they think about 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.320 this because this like large looming threat too much. It 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.640 just freaks you out right, and you have in order 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.760 to or to just keep going on with your life. 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.640 A lot of people like segment off this type of 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.360 thing in their own brain so that you know, manifests 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.800 in a lot of cases, and this kind of soft 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:36.319 denial so that you can just keep on going. Yeah. Yeah, 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.120 and I see with with friends and I see with 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.800 the family. You know, obviously they're the handful of people 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.720 who still, at least in my experience, we still deny 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.840 climate change. But then there's like a bigger portion of 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.559 people whose whole understanding climate change is just this or what. 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.240 We just need to recycle and we just need to 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.840 like switch to electric vehicles and once you do that, 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.679 you know we'll be okay, um, which is tweak a 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.200 couple of things, get some solar panels, and yeah, you know, 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.560 the understanding of it has been completely limited to like 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:15.520 this very restricted conversation that is like um basically cultivated 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:20.880 by certain interest groups and certain um lobbying groups and 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.200 that kind of thing. You know, Yeah, the only a 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.440 certain amount of change is allowed, and that's what we're 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.120 allowed to think. So that's what we're like shown for 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.600 examples of in like media and pop culture or whatever. Right, 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.800 So this is you know, this is kind of what um. 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.680 You know, like all of the YouTubers who got money 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.560 from Bill Gates when Bill Gates wrote his climate book, right, 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.480 all of the things that they were talking about is 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.520 like it's like this kind of stuff because the only 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.120 way for Bill Gates to keep his money well, you know, 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.040 talking about climate change is to have these kind of 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.959 half asked like solutions that are actually deny the impending 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.199 reality and deny that. No, the only way to actually 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.000 fix it is by taking about his money, um, which 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:06.120 he's not as big a fan of. Yeah, I mean, 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.880 have you all seen the cucked video on climate change 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.559 and economy coming? So what did you want? To? Climate change? 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.520 In a nutshell? It's like this like that so people 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:23.520 can find it, but people will I think people people know. 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:24.880 I think a lot a lot of people know what 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:26.680 it is. Or you can just search in a nutshell 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:31.440 on YouTube. It's key you are. I'm gonna try. I'm 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:35.520 gonna try, k you are. No, it's ku r G 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.280 Was it ku r z? I think it's k you 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:47.840 r z G E s A A G T Right, 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:49.480 it is. It is a It is a weird one. 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.320 But what what what are you talking about? The can 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:56.040 you fix climate change? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, where the whole 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:00.040 thesis is basically vote with your boots and food with 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:05.680 your wallet. Yeah, that's the only thing that you're really allowed, right, Yeah, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.200 And I believe this is one of the videos sponsored 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.800 by They put this, um, yeah, they did. It was 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.120 and then they had this whole line about some people 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.080 think we need to change like our system from climate 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.120 chy from from capitalism, but we're not so sure about that. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:20.880 We don't know the answer. So if it's just be 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.560 like shrug towards a system, it's from with the system. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.600 But they basically gave it no attention, you know. But 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.760 their channel is literally about like quite deep into research 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.640 about things. So it's very obvious that if they spent 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.040 no time like doing any kind of research into like 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:40.000 why people have the system and critique that obviously Bill 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.480 Kate's hand is very deep in their pockets, you know, 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.800 because I believe that I believe the researchers actually kind 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.560 of know that, but they're not. They just can't say 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.920 you're not allowed to. Yeah, And I mean like, yeah, 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:55.280 I think they're making the bargain a lot of people 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.120 make where they're like, Okay, well, if we can push 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:01.120 for you know, the immediate necessary changes, we can worry about, 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.400 you know, stuff like that later on. It's it's just 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.760 important to get something done. Um, And so we'll compromise 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.240 and will not will not call for what we know 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.520 is actually necessary to deal with the problem. We'll just 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.920 we'll just go with a half measure because at least 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.880 it's something we've got to do something now, right. The 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:20.680 thing that's always been very grim about that to me 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.920 is like you look about how how that plays out, right, 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.200 and it's always like, well, okay, so our our half 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.240 measure is gonna be we're gonna we're gonna just like 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.320 put put put a monetary value on indigenous forests so 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.040 that governments can like steal them and get paid for 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.120 taking the land. And it's never stuff like why don't 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:45.200 we like make more marshes, which is you know, if 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.720 you're gonna talk about stuff that like could actually be done, right, 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.120 it's like, okay, well, but what do re marshing do 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.360 we want? Like that's that that stuff like is easy 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.240 and doesn't need you know, you don't literally have to 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.120 overthrow capitalism to get people to like restore marshes. But 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.520 it never happens because this that's you know, the whole 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:03.680 basis of the sort of soft denialism stuff is not 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.320 actually you know, it's not actually the type of solve 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.320 climate change. They just want to make money, And it's 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:16.920 extremely grim. Yeah. Yeah, there's this video that the storyteller 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:21.119 is this YouTuber. Um he did recently on co opting movements, 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:26.040 and he was explaining that, Um, with the march in 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.800 Washington right during the Civil Rights movement. Um, that was 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.919 an organic movement that you know, the people had come 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:40.040 up with, right, but obviously a mass movement. Theah FI 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.960 isn't going to just sit back and let that happen, right, 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.840 So they brought in these leaders. Um they're called the 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.800 Big Six, and um, the storyteller was explaining that basically 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:56.040 they were paid to co opt the march to basically 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.919 become its figureheads and its leaders. They hadn't organized it themselves, 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.920 but they came on afterwards and became the leaders in 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.320 the march and read the speeches that they were supposed 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.600 to read, that kind of thing, and so that sort 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:14.680 of mass movement was basically defound like that. I mean, 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:19.480 obviously reforms were made and you know, Civil Rights Act 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.320 was passed. But then, you know, after all that happened, 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:27.080 and MLK got disillusioned by the system as a whole 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:31.920 and wanted to start pushing even harder against capitalism and whatnot. 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:37.280 That's when well, coincidentally, you got a bullet, you know, 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:44.160 So I think it's interesting that these movements they're able, 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:49.240 they're they're comfortable with these movements up to a certain point, um, 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.040 and comfortable these leaders going these certain directions at to 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:54.800 a certain point. But then when you actually start posing 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.960 a threat to this out of school, that's when you know, 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:03.080 you become a problem in the community. Not to see that, okay, 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.320 wasn't a threat to the side of school, but just 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:10.560 to see that's you know, um, there was. They have 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:16.000 certain limits that they don't want people to cross. Yeah, capitalism. 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.959 One of the things that's that makes it such a 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:23.120 robust system in terms of its ability to to not 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.920 get overthrown or destroyed is that, up to a certain point, 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.159 it loves dissent. It loves anti capitalism because you can 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.119 market that very easily. Like there's a lot of money 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.840 in in in anti capitalism. There's a lot of money 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.879 and being critical of the system. It's just when you 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.880 hit a certain point, um, then it then it becomes 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:48.280 you know, the CIA or the FBI or some person 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:53.000 who's been um convinced to shoot use problem like it. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.760 There's a there's a point at which, uh, that's no 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.560 longer accepted. But quite a bit of criticism and even 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.320 like agitation to change your end the system can be 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.919 accepted because it's monetize herbal and speaking of that, you 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:15.560 know what time it is? Time for ad serious? Absolutely 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:20.320 is oh boy, time for an ad or or that's 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.119 the CIA at the door. We won't know until we 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:26.359 come back from break. Ah, we're back. It wasn't the 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:32.680 CIA this time. Good news, guys, thankfully. I mean the 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:34.439 fact that they flew all the way down just to 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.760 meet me. I'm on it, honestly. Oh, I mean they've 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:47.240 come to trend a dad for less. Oh that's true. Yeah, yeah, 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.400 But like we were seeing, right, does a school issue 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:54.879 of these movements being able to go in a cittain 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.200 direction rowning up to a certain point. Um. I think 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:02.000 it's something that's Pizza Caloso talks about in how non 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.399 violence protects the state, in the sense of, you know, 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:10.840 these people are able to once they get a certain 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:13.520 level of attention, all of a sudden, you know, you're 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.960 invited to speak of these events, and you're invited to 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:22.760 go this place and that, and you basically get consumed 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:29.440 into the workshop machine, the angio machine, and the climate 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.359 conference machine kind of things. So you end up with 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.440 all these figures, these organizers, these activists who go from 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.359 like generally trying to organize their communities and their spaces, 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.320 and then before you know it, they're like at such 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.000 and such a conference because well they think it's an 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.280 opportunity to like actually make like a bigger change. But 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:54.520 in reality, you know, they're just there too be defound. 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.919 You know. So like, for example, who mainly comes to 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.120 mind is like Great Thunberg. I mean I haven't looked 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:03.760 at deeply into her past or anything. Um. I know 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.840 they are certain right wingers who are very obsessed with her, 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:12.280 but I know that she recently said that she's kind 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:18.159 of done with politicians. Um. Because when you think of 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:22.479 how she basically came up, you know, right exactly what 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:26.040 how she basically came up. It was like she is 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.159 talking at these events and you know, people are in 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:32.080 frighting out things because you know, look at look at 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.920 this cute little google um yelling about climate change, right, 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:40.919 and she basically becomes this spectacle, you know, and that 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:46.879 spectacle is entertained up to the point people make big 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.320 events out of her, you know, like breaking down in 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:52.359 front of these positions and stuff, and you know what 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.640 they just go right back to normal. UM. I think 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.080 it was copy was like last week or the week 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:06.600 before UM and representatives from representative I think the Prime 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:10.119 Minister of Barbados was there and she had this, you know, 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:13.400 a great speech about how the global nothings do more 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.760 for you know, these countries in Global South because you 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:21.080 know they have responsibility that kind of thing. Cool UM. 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.320 But at the same time, you know there's like developments 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:28.800 going on Barbados too, you know, basically bring in more 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:31.439 tourists and to bring in more UM and like you know, 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:35.320 resorts building and that kind of thing that basically add 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:41.840 to the UM emissions and adds the UM negative impact 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:45.000 in the environment. You know, same thing with like T's government, 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:49.240 you know, like the representativeution that went to top including 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.359 the Prime Minister, and you know they're all about things 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:56.040 changing and you know, the climate movement UM and the 0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:59.160 climate change being real and the actions need to be taken. 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.560 And then like this didn't make it in like like 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.040 mainstare news of course, but in local news. Basically right 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:10.440 after Prime Minister trans vehicle dos Keith Rowley, he went 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:15.439 and met up with like Shell. Yeah, like representatives at 0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:18.680 Shell to like basically bring the country and the company 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:23.359 closer together, you know, um, because you know you're not 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:25.800 is reliant and oil and that kind of thing. So 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:31.440 obviously these sort of leaders and these sorts of movements, 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:35.280 they only go up to a certain point, and even then, 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:39.840 so much of it is just this performance. Yeah, this 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:45.560 UM act. Basically I'll be I'm putting together a thing 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:50.359 on copies right now, UM because I think it actually 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:54.000 it does demonstrate a lot of the soft denial stuff 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:57.040 that you're talking about. Like the biggest thing to come 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:00.760 out of copy in terms of actual deals is just 0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:06.160 uh progress on carbon markets and carbon offset credits. That's there. 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:09.320 That's really the only thing we actually got, um. And 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:11.520 they say wed but not not like us, but like 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:13.760 you know, the people in charge, they they got this 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:17.479 and and the the the quote they gave was that 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:20.960 the being able to buy carbon offset credits, meaning that 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:24.480 like you don't actually make emissions differences. So they said, 0:25:24.560 --> 0:25:28.359 you you buy pretend emissions differences from other countries that 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:31.560 actually did make changes, um, so that you don't get penalized. 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:34.800 So that's buying the credits far. But they said, they said, 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:38.320 buying the credits can potentially unlock trillions of dollars for 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:42.960 protecting trees, expanding renewable energy, and other pludgets combat climate change. 0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:51.080 It's that's the fuckers like don't climate credits. It's like, um, 0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:54.120 it's the same as saying like hail Mary's because you 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:56.280 you send and you went to your priest and confessed. 0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:59.440 It's like, I've I've I've done bad things to the environment. 0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:01.600 Tell me like how many times I need to go 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:04.119 through this ritual in order to in order to cleanse 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:09.240 myself of having the atmosphere you know exactly. I think 0:26:09.240 --> 0:26:11.000 it's bleaker than that in a lot of ways, Like 0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:13.000 it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's it's really it's the 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:19.480 climate version of like the World Wildlife Fund having death squads. Okay, now, Chris, 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:22.120 you are a very anti death squad, and I think 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:24.159 we need to deal with that at some point because 0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:30.080 hashtag not all death squads. Yes, my mother will need 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:32.160 to be able to account for by strong anti death 0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:35.600 squad stance. This is a yeah, you say that now, 0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:37.159 but you're gonna get a death squad to fight the 0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:39.040 death squads, and then where are you begin to be 0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:48.679 se death squadsception get they get a death squad to 0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:50.320 fight your death squad, and then it's just like the 0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:51.959 constant each other out and then you have to get 0:26:51.960 --> 0:27:01.080 another death squad and then see Marxist Lendon is m Yeah, 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:03.040 it's a number of other things too, to be fair 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:07.680 to Marxism. Another thing that might make you kind of 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:11.400 question the integrity of CUT is that there were more 0:27:12.000 --> 0:27:15.640 delegates at CUP six from fossil field companies than there 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:21.959 were from any individual nation. That makes sense. But then right, 0:27:22.119 --> 0:27:24.600 that's like another thing, right, because you're talking about six 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:26.720 and we have Selft. Climate change denial gets into that, 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:30.879 But I don't think. I think self fim change denial 0:27:30.920 --> 0:27:33.320 can only be applied so far when it comes to 0:27:33.359 --> 0:27:36.680 those sorts of big spectacles and those big major events. 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:42.000 Because even if they themselves really truly understand the depths 0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:45.720 of climate change and trust and believe, like these oil 0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:48.119 barons and stuff, they know like they have all the 0:27:48.160 --> 0:27:51.160 infund right present front of them. They've done they already 0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:55.440 done their like cost benefit analyses and like risk assessments 0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:57.600 and kind of thing, so they know exactly like what 0:27:57.640 --> 0:27:59.000 the impact is going to be. They have the money 0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:02.840 to have access to this. Scientists right, But it's not 0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:07.360 soft clime change denial for them, it's I'm a capitalist. 0:28:07.400 --> 0:28:09.239 I'm going to do what a capitalist does. You know, 0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:13.800 it's ultimately a funct Wait, they're operating within a system, 0:28:13.840 --> 0:28:16.600 you know, so soft time changenial um it is like 0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:19.440 sort of a psychological phenomenon. But we also to keep 0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:22.480 in mind the day is also like a structural component 0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:26.080 to it. See that even if they're a person does 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:28.320 not face self clim change now is an experiencing self 0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:32.119 clim change denial that alone, even if they're like fully 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:36.320 confront the sue, that's just an individual, you know, and 0:28:36.359 --> 0:28:39.520 there's still like a whole structure around that individual that 0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:44.160 will still incentivize certain behavior. And then of course with 0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:49.719 the incentives of certain behavior comes like the psychological justifications 0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:54.280 for that behavior. So it kind of almost becomes that 0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:57.360 they end up justifying themselves into self climate change denial, 0:28:59.200 --> 0:29:00.960 you know what I mean. So kind of like it's 0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:04.400 like a FID that it's like a feedback loop that 0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:11.160 reinforces its own existence. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I think 0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:14.400 that honestly, like the feedback loop model is where we 0:29:14.440 --> 0:29:16.360 have a lot of our problems with the climate change are. 0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:19.720 They're all very much linked to the feedback loop model 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:23.360 of things trying to justify their own existence. And then 0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:26.080 you know, certain and then on the reverse side of things, 0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:28.560 you know, when certain changes in the climate happen, those 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:31.160 create their own feedback loops which create more changes to happen. 0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:38.280 It's like everything, everything, one one massive loop. Yeah. I 0:29:38.280 --> 0:29:42.480 gets me to like, there's the discourse around climate change 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:48.240 and stuff is like halted and divoted and immobilized, you 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:50.840 know by soft climate change. Now, you know, discussions of 0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:54.560 the very real, very current, very near future and very 0:29:54.680 --> 0:30:00.720 violent impacts of climate change just basically softened, like like 0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:01.960 you know when you try to throw a punch in 0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:05.560 a dream. Yeah, Like you're trying to like push, and 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:08.160 then it's like, you know, it's like this kind of 0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:13.040 soft um or like you throw something in space. I 0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:15.360 guess it's just you put all this effort into it 0:30:15.400 --> 0:30:17.480 and then you go in another direction that kind of thing. Um, 0:30:17.520 --> 0:30:18.880 I don't know where I'm going with this analogy, so 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:23.840 I'll just keep on going. Um. Basically that there's an 0:30:23.840 --> 0:30:26.400 issue with the conversation with the discourse has just been 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:32.920 you know, harmed by the psychological phenomenon but of course 0:30:32.920 --> 0:30:35.479 there's the other side of psychological phenomenon of soft clan 0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:38.880 engine nial, not the hard clansine genial side, but rather 0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:42.120 the I'm so on the opposite end of soft clungine 0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:47.320 nil that I'm like an inconsolable and like illogical and 0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:51.680 I can't even imagine the possibility of anything happening kind 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:55.400 of yeah. Yeah, the kind of the kind of extreme 0:30:55.440 --> 0:31:00.560 dumerism where you recognize, how you organize that clumpsage is bad, um, 0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:03.360 but then you you see it as such a massive 0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:05.840 overwhelming thing that basically shuts you down from be able 0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:08.120 to do anything else, and you're just like, exactly, there's 0:31:08.120 --> 0:31:09.680 really no spot to do anything if it's going to 0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:11.760 be this bad. There's really no one's you know, it's 0:31:11.760 --> 0:31:15.200 such a hard capitalism and the systems that are working 0:31:15.200 --> 0:31:17.480 to keep it going or such a hard thing to 0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:20.920 overcome that it seems like the best thing to do 0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:24.640 is just sit down and do nothing. Yeah, And that's 0:31:24.640 --> 0:31:29.480 the thing, right, Like these are slash collapse people, right, Um. 0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:31.960 I mean I appreciate that they don't shy away from 0:31:32.000 --> 0:31:35.440 like the really difficult stuff, and they also stumble into 0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:38.760 this kind of like coop that's dumorism, Like it's dramatic 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:41.840 kind of we are screwed, We're all going to be 0:31:41.840 --> 0:31:44.440 fight saying this Mad Max style arena. Like that's not 0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:47.160 how you know, climb Chine is going to play out. 0:31:47.200 --> 0:31:49.400 You know, it's not a movie. You know, like if 0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:51.720 things are going to break down in Sutain places and 0:31:51.760 --> 0:31:55.160 other places are gonna lockdown in Sutain, weez, but it's 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:59.680 not going to be like this certain global devolution into 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:05.120 hotness like that. You know, that's not really how social change. 0:32:05.160 --> 0:32:09.000 That's already how collapses have you know, functional history. You know, 0:32:09.680 --> 0:32:12.240 of course we live in a like a global civilization 0:32:12.520 --> 0:32:16.760 and previous collapses have been fairly localized. But still, you know, 0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:20.720 climate change is both global and local, so there are 0:32:20.720 --> 0:32:24.840 certain changes it will only affects it in localities. This 0:32:24.920 --> 0:32:29.240 is something that actually the book Desert addresses fairly well, 0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:32.880 and I find it frustrat Yeah, yeah, because I find 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:36.160 really frustrating because especially on the online left, there's people 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:39.160 who treat desert like the Gospel, or at least they 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:43.520 say they do, but they're actually extreme doomers who fetishize 0:32:43.560 --> 0:32:47.080 collapse um and they're like, oh, everything is hopeless read 0:32:47.080 --> 0:32:50.600 desert but then you but then desert, but you reasert. 0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:55.000 Like desert is like explicitly anti collapse and same collapse 0:32:55.080 --> 0:32:58.080 isn't gonna happen. Collapse is a fantasy you tell yourself 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:02.680 to keep you going in for this kind of haven't 0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:05.640 heard of. Desert the Desert is a book that's available 0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:10.320 for free online about what's coming. Um. It's titled desert 0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:14.160 because of an old quote about how empires um leave 0:33:14.240 --> 0:33:16.800 nothing but deserts in their wake. Basically like that's it's 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:19.640 it's just like a thing that that empire. I think 0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:22.000 the exact quote is like empires make a desert and 0:33:22.040 --> 0:33:25.520 call it peace. Um. And it's it's basically discussing the 0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:30.080 fact like not just literal desertification, but like, um, that 0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:32.719 that's more of a more of a better picture of 0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:35.040 like our future under climate change than kind of these 0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:40.320 these mad max dreams this like slow dissolution of resources 0:33:40.360 --> 0:33:44.800 and uh environments. Um, and that that's kind of the Yeah, 0:33:44.840 --> 0:33:46.640 it's a it's a good book. You can read it yourself, 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:51.160 and it's it's quite influential online. Um. But yeah, as 0:33:51.200 --> 0:33:53.480 as Garrison pointed out, there are people who kind of 0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:55.880 take it in a in a direction that I don't 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:58.600 believe the authors. I mean clearly the authors didn't mean 0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:03.280 because they directly called out that kind of thinking. Yeah, yeah, 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:06.320 it's kind of like some people treat like collapse and stuff. 0:34:06.400 --> 0:34:12.320 It's basically the secular version of like revelation in the Bible. 0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:16.120 Yeah yeah. Or it's or it's like the non marketus 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:19.399 version of like the revolution. It's like it's like this 0:34:19.400 --> 0:34:24.040 this kind of mythical event to like prepare for and 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:28.040 almost be excited for, but like it's it's fake. It's 0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:30.719 a fantasy. It's it's something we tell ourselves to keep 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:34.000 ourselves going as things are bad. But it's not. It's 0:34:34.239 --> 0:34:36.840 it's not real. Yeah, like any day, you know, the 0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:39.560 trumpets will sound in the heavens and the screws will 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:42.720 be broken and the great, the great beast will arise 0:34:42.760 --> 0:34:45.440 from the sea and you know all that fame. Yeah, 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:48.120 And I I don't know what the solution is for that. 0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:50.600 I I don't know how both on the soft climate 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:54.080 denial side of like how do you go about? How 0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:55.400 do you go about? It's like the only thing we 0:34:55.400 --> 0:34:57.160 can really do is the people, you know, we know, 0:34:57.280 --> 0:35:00.680 how how do we go about and tell the um that, hey, 0:35:01.239 --> 0:35:03.400 things are probably gonna be a bit worse than what 0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:05.480 you're preparing for. Um, And how do we tell the 0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:09.839 people who are doomers, Hey, it's not gonna be like 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:13.719 this weird dystopian thing that you're thinking of. Either it's 0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:16.879 like it's it's it's interesting because like they're both veering 0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:20.759 off in two opposite directions, but it both kind of 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:22.840 leads to the same point of kind of doing nothing. 0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:26.120 But one version. One version of nothing is basically, you know, 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:28.719 voting for stuff that's not that's never gonna happen. The 0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:33.440 other version is not just not doing anything in general. Um. 0:35:33.480 --> 0:35:38.279 And I I don't know how to how to reach 0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:42.880 those types of people very easily. Yeah, which kind of 0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:45.360 brings me to like my thoughts on like how we 0:35:45.440 --> 0:35:50.600 move past soft climate change Nile. Um. I don't think 0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:56.200 it's just a matter of like trying to like push 0:35:56.320 --> 0:36:01.319 like campaigns on people. I think it's gonna be like 0:36:01.320 --> 0:36:04.359 a very personal sort of journey that each person has 0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:06.600 to go through, right, because each wisnes is different. Each 0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:08.799 wisnes is like has different worries and dealing things in 0:36:08.800 --> 0:36:11.759 a different way, you know. Um, so like you want 0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:15.479 to keep in mind like people's mental health and sort 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:21.000 of fortifying your mental health and helping people fortified days. 0:36:21.440 --> 0:36:25.000 Because when it comes to mental health with regard to 0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:30.440 like climate change, doing it an isolation in my experience 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:33.160 has not really worked out. I think what has worked 0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:36.719 best for me is when I am with why I'm 0:36:36.760 --> 0:36:39.120 connected with a group of people or even just one 0:36:39.120 --> 0:36:42.960 other person, and when I'm feeling down about climate change. 0:36:43.360 --> 0:36:46.800 Because despite all my messages of what soula punk and 0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:48.720 you know, we can do this like that that's basically 0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:51.360 the message of my YouTube channel. You know, I still 0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:55.840 experience like those sort of thoughts and feelings of public 0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:59.719 about it. But what I try to do is when 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:03.400 I'm eating those things, I try to be with people 0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:06.120 who are not currently feeding that, you know, so we're 0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:09.200 not feeding all of each other's nights of energies. Yeah, 0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:11.360 so like when I'm in a bad spot, you know, 0:37:11.520 --> 0:37:13.320 people are on it who could lift me up, and 0:37:13.400 --> 0:37:16.440 when they about dan about spot because it kind of 0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:20.680 comes in weaves, you know, yeah, absolutely, no, Yeah, it's 0:37:20.760 --> 0:37:24.560 it's it's silly to deny those thoughts exist because they do, 0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:28.160 like they're they're very they're a very easy neutral state 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.840 at least for me to slip into UM. And the 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:35.600 way to get around that is by doing chores at 0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:40.480 a farm and shoveling poop and taking care of animals 0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:42.920 and cooking for people. That's like the way that I 0:37:43.440 --> 0:37:45.520 get out of that kind of mindset. And you know, 0:37:46.200 --> 0:37:48.600 not not to be too hard on all of the 0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:52.719 kind of doomer nihilists, because there there is there, there is, 0:37:53.080 --> 0:37:56.240 there's this there's like a sect of like doomer nihilists 0:37:56.320 --> 0:37:58.799 who use like the actual definition of nihilism, which is like, 0:37:59.080 --> 0:38:01.919 if if things don't really matter, we should probably fux 0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:05.200 some stuff up, um. And that's very useful, right like 0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:07.239 if if if you're if if you're on that train 0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:10.040 and you're like, yeah, you should be tree spiking. If 0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:13.520 if if you're okay with if you think nothing matters UM, 0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:15.840 and you are you want to be an actual nihilist, 0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:19.000 then yeah you should make you should make destroy um. 0:38:19.760 --> 0:38:21.640 Just make sure it's focused on the people with actual 0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:24.520 power UM. Because if if you're willing to do that, 0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:27.120 then great, we need we need as many as many 0:38:27.120 --> 0:38:29.440 people like that as possible. But it's certainly easier to 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:31.880 do that once you have friends and once you're not 0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:36.040 stuck in this super depressed state all the time. Yeah, 0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:40.400 and UM, I think there's a again. We we we 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:42.560 do take a look at like some of the criticisms. 0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:44.600 People have a show online and I know one that's 0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:46.239 come up a bunch is people will listen to like 0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:50.520 our when when we'll talk about, you know, the severity 0:38:50.520 --> 0:38:52.759 of the problems and then we'll talk about things like 0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:56.440 you know, mutual aid collectives and small guards, seed bombings 0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:58.160 and all that stuff, they'll be like, well, that's not 0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:01.920 a solution. No, of course, that's not going to solve 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:06.560 the global problem of carbon emissions from a civilization of 0:39:06.600 --> 0:39:10.800 seven billion humans. What it does do focusing on stuff 0:39:10.840 --> 0:39:14.160 like that, focusing on building soil, UM, focusing on building 0:39:14.160 --> 0:39:17.440 community resistance. In addition to like having an immediate impact 0:39:17.480 --> 0:39:19.680 on the number of people you know, in in in 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:24.400 your community, it builds a sense of um a sense 0:39:24.440 --> 0:39:29.120 of power for the individual. It It gives you something 0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:31.759 to do that isn't just thinking about how bad things are, 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:34.279 and that puts you in a mind state that's more 0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:38.160 useful to actually potentially dealing with the bigger problems at 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:40.759 some point. UM you have to have a sense of 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:43.440 your own agency that feels real if you're going to 0:39:43.520 --> 0:39:48.040 actually change anything, um and you can. You can build 0:39:48.040 --> 0:39:50.520 it's a muscle, right, You can build it up by 0:39:50.600 --> 0:39:54.839 by doing things that are not bigger but are are 0:39:55.280 --> 0:39:59.719 part of the solution. UM And it makes valuable to 0:39:59.800 --> 0:40:02.080 do that for your own for your own mental health, 0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:05.960 because then maybe you if you're maybe if if your 0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:08.279 friend group, if your your affinity group, whatever you wanna 0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:10.719 call it, the people you are hanging out with, if 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:13.359 some of them are always engaged in something productive, then 0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:16.080 when you're in a doomed spiral, you can find someone 0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:20.440 who's working on something UM and vice versa. Yeah, and 0:40:20.680 --> 0:40:23.000 it doesn't just help your mental health, but it also 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:27.040 contributes to the pre figurative activities that we need to 0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:30.040 actually make us switch to a different system. You know, 0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:33.440 like the revolution is something that happens overnight or in 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:36.399 a future. It's something that's supposed to be happening all now, 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:39.600 because as we build those systems, you know, we are 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.200 building up power. You know, it's kind of like how 0:40:43.560 --> 0:40:46.279 the Black socialists in America described dual power. You know, 0:40:46.480 --> 0:40:48.160 it should be a building these systems and putting these 0:40:48.200 --> 0:40:53.600 things in place so that we can push towards like 0:40:54.000 --> 0:40:59.279 fundamental transmission of the system. It's iterative, but as small 0:40:59.440 --> 0:41:01.960 people do on top of that, you know, that's how 0:41:01.960 --> 0:41:07.400 the transmission happens. We also need to contribute. I mean, 0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:09.719 I think it's it's it's important to talk about this 0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:14.000 both to acknowledge like it's a thing that happens and 0:41:14.040 --> 0:41:15.759 we all deal with. We all have our moments of 0:41:15.800 --> 0:41:20.600 like overwhelming despair over what's happening. UM and and at 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:24.520 some some moments of unrealistic optimism too. Yeah, every once 0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:28.719 in a while, and the unrealistic optimism needs to be 0:41:28.840 --> 0:41:31.960 encouraged UM, as long as it's not the kind of 0:41:31.960 --> 0:41:34.600 what we don't need to do anything because someone's I 0:41:34.640 --> 0:41:37.760 guess there's toxic optimism and there's helpful. A toxic optimism 0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:40.640 would be like reading an article about some new carbon 0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:42.960 capture technology and being like, oh cool, Well I don't 0:41:42.960 --> 0:41:47.479 need to worry. UM. But but most optimism I think 0:41:47.680 --> 0:41:51.080 is positive UM. And it I think it's good to 0:41:51.200 --> 0:41:54.200 build a capacity for optimism by by building your your 0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:58.080 personal sense of agency and power, by by doing ship 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:02.920 that helps UM. And I think that accepting that you 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:06.960 can do things that are meaningful. Um, and that uh, 0:42:07.000 --> 0:42:09.160 there are things to be done that can help the 0:42:09.200 --> 0:42:13.799 situation is a critical way of fighting against you know 0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:19.880 this uh soft climate change denial, which which is a um, 0:42:19.920 --> 0:42:23.439 a major threat because there's I think, honestly at this point, 0:42:23.520 --> 0:42:27.120 more people who are subscribing to some form of soft 0:42:27.160 --> 0:42:30.480 climate change denial than there are people who are uh 0:42:30.760 --> 0:42:35.240 just denying climate change and its entirety. Um. And that's 0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:38.080 I think where a lot of the effort has to go. 0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:40.640 So I yeah, I think this is a really important 0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:45.440 thing for people to understand and to be vigilant against. Absolutely. Yeah. 0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:49.960 All right, well, Andrew, where can the audience find you 0:42:50.719 --> 0:42:54.520 outside of here right now? Yeah? So you can find 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:57.200 me on my YouTube channel st Andrew's m and you 0:42:57.200 --> 0:43:01.399 can find me on Twitter at a mischool of Sture. Excellent. Well, 0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:03.960 you can find us here where you just found us. 0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:07.160 We'll be here tomorrow, unless this is a Friday, in 0:43:07.160 --> 0:43:10.840 which case we'll be here on Monday. UM. I have 0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:16.399 a have a good you know life, have a good life. Care. 0:43:24.960 --> 0:43:28.080 This is Roxanne Gay, host of the Roxanne Gay Agenda, 0:43:28.280 --> 0:43:31.439 The Bad Room, and his podcast of Your Dreams. Now 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.759 what is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, You might ask, Well, 0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:37.800 it's a podcast where I'm going to speak my mind 0:43:37.880 --> 0:43:41.120 about what's on my mind, and that could be anything. 0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:45.480 Every week I will be in conversation with an interesting 0:43:45.600 --> 0:43:48.000 person who has something to say. We're going to talk 0:43:48.000 --> 0:43:52.760 about feminism, race, writing, and books and art, food, pop culture, 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:57.600 and yes, politics. I started each show with a recommendation, Really, 0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:00.320 I'm just going to share with you a movie or 0:44:00.400 --> 0:44:03.160 a book, or maybe some music or a comedy set, 0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:06.080 something that I really want you to be aware of 0:44:06.120 --> 0:44:09.480 and maybe engage with as well. Listen to the Luminary 0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:14.360 original podcast, The Roxanne Gay Agenda, The Bad Feminist Podcast 0:44:14.440 --> 0:44:17.959 of Your Dreams, Every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:25.720 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. From Cavalry Audio, 0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:30.200 comes the new true crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. I 0:44:30.480 --> 0:44:32.439 always wanted to know what it felt like. We killed 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:36.720 somebody and started laughing. Prosecutors described him as a serial killer, 0:44:36.840 --> 0:44:39.960 savant kicking up these girls, getting him in a position 0:44:40.000 --> 0:44:42.560 of vulnerability. When he got ahold of their neck, that 0:44:42.719 --> 0:44:46.320 was it. I'm Caroline Asia, a journalist and lifelong resident 0:44:46.360 --> 0:44:49.440 at the Pacific Northwest. I grew up near the banks 0:44:49.440 --> 0:44:51.839 of the Green River and in the shadow of the 0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:55.520 Killer that bears its name? Did you bring the camera 0:44:55.800 --> 0:44:59.640 one time? Just one he started fantasizing about having sex 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:02.560 with it his mother, and he fantasized about killing her. 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:06.320 But this podcast isn't only about tracking down the killer. 0:45:06.800 --> 0:45:09.920 It's about the victims. We stayed in the woods. He 0:45:10.000 --> 0:45:13.600 always liked to go into woods, all of the kind 0:45:13.600 --> 0:45:17.000 of strange you know how it feels about prostitutes. Listen 0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:19.640 to The Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app, 0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:26.839 on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Executive 0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:31.279 producer Paris Hilton brings back the hit podcast How Men Think. 0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:35.000 And that's good news for anyone that is confused by men, 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.799 which is basically everyone get an inside look at what 0:45:38.880 --> 0:45:41.880 goes on in the mind of men from the men themselves. 0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:45.719 It's real talk, straight from the source. How Men Think 0:45:45.760 --> 0:45:48.399 podcast is exactly what we need to figure them out. 0:45:48.680 --> 0:45:51.600 It's going to be fun and formative and probably a 0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:55.000 bit scary at times because we're literally going inside the 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:57.720 minds of men. As much as we like to think 0:45:57.840 --> 0:46:02.080 all men are the same, they're actually very different. Each week, 0:46:02.160 --> 0:46:05.760 a celebrity guest host provides honest advice in his area 0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:08.680 of expertise. When I agreed to do this reboot, I 0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:13.040 had a few conditions. No sugarcoating, no mind games, and 0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:17.400 absolutely no man splaining. Men are hard enough to understand 0:46:17.440 --> 0:46:20.440 without the mind games. Listen to How Men Think on 0:46:20.520 --> 0:46:23.719 the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you 0:46:23.760 --> 0:46:31.879 get your podcasts. All right, welcome to it could happen 0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:36.680 here a podcast about things falling apart and also sometimes 0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:39.560 about how things have been falling apart for a while now. 0:46:40.640 --> 0:46:45.960 And today we're going to talk about how things were 0:46:46.000 --> 0:46:48.560 also bad in falling apart in the two thousands, which 0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:52.480 a profoundly cursed time period. And specifically we're going to 0:46:52.560 --> 0:46:55.439 talk about I think a part of the anti war 0:46:55.520 --> 0:46:59.480 movement that does not get much attention um, which is 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:04.439 the portmeal Tourization resistance that happened sort of two and 0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:09.040 with us today to talk about this is two people 0:47:09.040 --> 0:47:12.640 who were part of this movement. If Juliana Newhauser, hello, 0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:18.280 and Brendan Maslaska's done, Yeah, both of whom were organizers 0:47:18.320 --> 0:47:22.319 and activists while this was going on. Yeah, and I 0:47:22.320 --> 0:47:24.479 thank thank you, thank you both for being here. Yeah, 0:47:24.520 --> 0:47:27.400 thanks for having us. So, Yeah, as as I was 0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:29.319 saying a bit in the intro, I think that this 0:47:29.360 --> 0:47:31.719 is a part of the anti war movement that is 0:47:31.760 --> 0:47:33.759 not very well known. I think I think a lot 0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:35.680 of people know about the initial stuff happened in two 0:47:35.680 --> 0:47:39.960 thousand three, and people might know about some of the 0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:44.080 stuff that was happening against the war in Afghanistan but 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:47.240 right when it started, But I don't think most people 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:49.560 know that it like you know, even after jails and 0:47:49.560 --> 0:47:52.560 three sort of doesn't work, that it continues and it 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:56.240 continues sort of informs that are that are very interesting, 0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:59.239 and so I guess I want you to to start out, 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:05.720 I want to ask how we sort of got from 0:48:05.800 --> 0:48:07.640 the early part of the anti war movement into this 0:48:07.800 --> 0:48:11.000 and how usually got involved. I would say that there's 0:48:11.040 --> 0:48:14.200 this narrative about the women against the word Iraq, that 0:48:14.320 --> 0:48:18.239 there is the largest protests in human history, at least 0:48:18.239 --> 0:48:19.680 at that point. I don't know if it's still true 0:48:20.440 --> 0:48:25.440 against the invasion, and then it didn't work and everyone 0:48:26.040 --> 0:48:31.040 kind of went home and ended there, and to a 0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:34.960 certain extent that's true. But like you said, the people 0:48:35.000 --> 0:48:39.720 that didn't go home went an interesting direction. And um 0:48:39.760 --> 0:48:43.960 so at the time there were direct action was not 0:48:44.080 --> 0:48:49.560 as acceptable as it is now. The protest this movement 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:54.400 was largely dominated either by UM big liberal coalitions or 0:48:54.719 --> 0:48:59.319 PSL front groups that were basically indistinguishable and what they 0:48:59.320 --> 0:49:04.160 actually did, which was basically nothing and in the best 0:49:04.160 --> 0:49:05.840 of cases and then the worst of cases kind of 0:49:05.840 --> 0:49:12.800 insurgency UM. But then there were small groups of people 0:49:13.360 --> 0:49:17.680 that at when we saw that it didn't work, and 0:49:17.719 --> 0:49:22.879 we saw that these giant, peaceful marches from one part 0:49:22.920 --> 0:49:26.840 of town to another UM or voting for John Kerry 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:29.680 or whatever, it didn't work, that we started to look 0:49:29.719 --> 0:49:36.960 for other options. Yeah, and uh, you know, I got involved. 0:49:37.560 --> 0:49:40.200 You know, i'd say with the anti war movement. That 0:49:40.400 --> 0:49:45.640 idea of how wars onjust was really taught to me 0:49:45.719 --> 0:49:48.600 from a very young age. I mean, my parents were 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:53.160 you know, children of the sixties, and they had family 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:57.520 members fighting in Vietnam and um, you know, friends dying 0:49:57.560 --> 0:50:00.920 in Vietnam and we're against the protest back then. So 0:50:00.960 --> 0:50:03.480 I grew up hearing these stories and of course stories 0:50:03.520 --> 0:50:07.000 from family members, particularly one of my grandfather's, both of 0:50:07.000 --> 0:50:09.400 them who were veterans in World War Two. One of 0:50:09.400 --> 0:50:11.960 them was a marine in the you know, in the 0:50:12.040 --> 0:50:16.239 Pacific Theater and still into his seventies, eighties, and nineties 0:50:16.400 --> 0:50:19.880 until his final days, was just dealing with horrific PTSD 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:22.080 and had always taught me from a young age never 0:50:22.120 --> 0:50:25.680 to get involved. So I you know, and I remember 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:29.040 when when the very clearly, um, you know, I'm sure 0:50:29.040 --> 0:50:31.640 it's on everyone's minds now, and when the invasion of 0:50:31.760 --> 0:50:34.880 Afghanistan started, when the invasion of a Rock started, I 0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:39.000 was at that that massive demonstration in Washington, d C. 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:43.600 That Juliana just mentioned, and you know I ended up. 0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:47.080 I'm from Utica, New York. I went to a rural 0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:51.680 high school, uh just outside of of Utica, you know, 0:50:51.760 --> 0:50:55.920 russ Bell generally speaking, impoverished and also very conservative area 0:50:56.480 --> 0:50:59.560 of New York. And you know, I had the recruiters 0:50:59.640 --> 0:51:05.440 bother me, military recruiters in high school, recruiting my friends, 0:51:05.760 --> 0:51:09.799 and they were just everywhere in the hallways. Uh So 0:51:10.080 --> 0:51:14.239 it was very present, um with me. When I was younger. 0:51:14.280 --> 0:51:17.799 I moved out to Olympia, Washington two thousand six, and 0:51:17.880 --> 0:51:23.160 that's one a new student activist group, Students for Democratic Society, 0:51:23.239 --> 0:51:26.160 was launched. That's how Juliana and I first met. We 0:51:26.160 --> 0:51:30.120 were both in separate chapters of that new organization in 0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:37.160 the Pacific Northwest, and the port protests started just just 0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:39.239 a few months after I moved out there in in 0:51:39.320 --> 0:51:43.040 Olympia in two thousand six. So wait, just declare for 0:51:43.080 --> 0:51:45.640 this for a second, because I've never quite been clear 0:51:45.680 --> 0:51:49.279 on this history. So there was a second st like 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:51.560 students for Democratic Idea that was like unrelated to the 0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:57.000 first one. Yeah, they're born briefly at the end of 0:51:57.040 --> 0:51:59.759 the bushop Nater date. That that explains a lot of 0:51:59.760 --> 0:52:04.359 things that it's very baffling. We're not that old. Yeah, 0:52:04.400 --> 0:52:07.360 we're definitely in the in the second uh, you know, 0:52:07.440 --> 0:52:09.600 the rebirth of it um. So you know, I think 0:52:09.640 --> 0:52:13.680 it it took on some things in spirit um, you know, 0:52:13.760 --> 0:52:16.759 but also was i'd say different in many ways, and 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:19.120 it was very active to me at least, it was 0:52:19.239 --> 0:52:22.800 very exciting to be a member of the New STS 0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:26.160 because they're over a dozen chapters in the Pacific Northwest 0:52:26.200 --> 0:52:28.600 and it was a great way to connect with young 0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:32.840 activists all over the US. So STS is emerging in 0:52:32.880 --> 0:52:34.920 this time period. One of the other things I was 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:37.360 interested about is something someone you were talking about in 0:52:37.560 --> 0:52:39.440 the in the early part of this which has to 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:43.359 do with the way that these giants both the sort 0:52:43.400 --> 0:52:45.759 of answer coalition PSL Frank Group and I guess the 0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:48.439 I s O was still around back then coalitions work 0:52:48.640 --> 0:52:53.680 versus how like anything else worked. So so what was 0:52:53.760 --> 0:52:57.040 was sts sort of like consciously set up and in 0:52:57.080 --> 0:52:59.640 opposition to those groups. I don't think it was conscious, 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:02.960 but there was just like I mean these days, I 0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:06.000 mean like there's a lot of controversy around PSL with 0:53:06.040 --> 0:53:09.640 like anarchist versus tanky politics. None of that mattered at 0:53:09.640 --> 0:53:11.719 that time, Like, none of that mattered. The only thing 0:53:11.719 --> 0:53:15.640 that mattered was the answer, which is the PSO Front 0:53:15.680 --> 0:53:21.279 group was completely fucking useless. Like they completely indistinguishable from 0:53:21.360 --> 0:53:26.840 any peace police um liberal Democratic Front group. There was 0:53:27.239 --> 0:53:30.400 literally no difference just in terms of their aesthetics maybe 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:33.440 like is there a donkey or a hammer and sickle 0:53:33.520 --> 0:53:36.120 on something. That's the only difference we saw. So I 0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:38.759 don't I don't think there was. It wasn't There wasn't 0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:44.880 like a conscious like political opposite attention to it. It 0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:48.399 was just like they're not doing anything, and and so 0:53:48.520 --> 0:53:51.560 we had to look in another direction. Actually, you know, 0:53:51.640 --> 0:53:54.360 it's hard to keep track of the alphabet soup of 0:53:54.560 --> 0:53:58.480 authilitarian communist groups at times. But this was actually answer 0:53:58.680 --> 0:54:01.040 for those who don't recall, it was a front group 0:54:01.120 --> 0:54:04.400 for the Workers World Party the W which yeah, I 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:08.120 mean it's it's hard to keep track, right, Yeah, that's 0:54:08.160 --> 0:54:10.879 the same thing, like I think, so, so okay, So 0:54:10.880 --> 0:54:12.959 for people who are sort of unaware of this, there's 0:54:13.120 --> 0:54:17.320 a network of connected but sometimes feuding like weird Stalinist 0:54:17.320 --> 0:54:20.799 cults that kind of kind of like they hold on 0:54:20.840 --> 0:54:24.239 through like the eighties and nineties and they start sort 0:54:24.239 --> 0:54:26.840 of rebuilding again around the anti war movements in that period. 0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:29.319 That that's the pslist of the DUP. That's answer like 0:54:29.600 --> 0:54:33.760 and and I think that's like most like modern anti 0:54:33.760 --> 0:54:38.320 war groups are also still these people, which is incredibly 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:40.520 depressing something I want to talk a bit about towards 0:54:40.560 --> 0:54:43.239 the end of this. But yeah, just for people who 0:54:43.280 --> 0:54:47.360 have not spent the last half decade in the in 0:54:47.400 --> 0:54:53.919 the trenches of extremely weird anti war politics. So yeah, so, 0:54:53.920 --> 0:54:58.399 so I think we should get into how the sort 0:54:58.440 --> 0:55:06.239 of the first action starts in Olympia. Yeah so, and 0:55:06.280 --> 0:55:09.719 there were actually a couple of actions that happened um 0:55:09.760 --> 0:55:12.200 in the year proceeding that, you know, before I moved 0:55:12.200 --> 0:55:14.319 out to Olympia in two thousand and six. It was 0:55:14.440 --> 0:55:19.759 not yet under the banner of PMR Port Militarization Resistance. 0:55:20.280 --> 0:55:25.720 That was a name that was officially coined in uh 0:55:25.760 --> 0:55:29.160 you know, in in May and June of two thousand six. 0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:33.560 And so, just to give you an idea, Olympia, it's 0:55:33.600 --> 0:55:36.120 it's a college town or at the Evergreen State colleges there. 0:55:36.520 --> 0:55:38.880 It's also the capital of Washington State, so you have 0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:41.640 that going on. It's also a military town. It's a 0:55:41.640 --> 0:55:45.200 little over twenty miles south of what we called Fort Lewis. 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:49.960 It's now called JBLM j BLOM or Joint Base Lewis McCord. 0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:52.360 It's an Army and Air Force base now it's one base. 0:55:53.000 --> 0:55:56.200 Um So, yet all these you know, different kind of elements, 0:55:56.600 --> 0:55:59.760 uh in you know, in tandem in in that town 0:56:00.480 --> 0:56:05.040 and the public port. The port of Olympia is one 0:56:05.040 --> 0:56:07.399 of about seventy years so public ports in the state 0:56:07.400 --> 0:56:10.839 of Washington, some of which are I mean they're used 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:15.440 for all kinds of things, you know, for commercial, private industry, 0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:19.880 but also the military and the U. S. Government. Uh So, uh, 0:56:19.960 --> 0:56:22.720 you know, I heard from someone I don't even remember 0:56:22.800 --> 0:56:27.200 who that the military was sending a ship to the 0:56:27.239 --> 0:56:30.480 port of Olympia in late May of two thousand six, 0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:34.960 And this happened for ten or so days, and it 0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:39.759 was just kind of a natural instinct for a whole 0:56:39.760 --> 0:56:43.360 bunch of us to go down to the Port of Olympia. 0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:46.480 It was it was the war machine in our backyard, 0:56:46.480 --> 0:56:50.000 and the idea was to just block the vehicles. It 0:56:50.120 --> 0:56:54.040 started out with just like less than ten people number 0:56:54.120 --> 0:56:58.760 folks getting arrested, and that very rapidly culminated into larger 0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:04.120 protests every single day um An active blockades people, uh, 0:57:04.200 --> 0:57:06.640 those of us like Julian and myself and other folks 0:57:06.719 --> 0:57:09.960 using civil disobedience or what we prefer to call civil 0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:13.279 resistance to try and stop or at the very least 0:57:13.280 --> 0:57:16.240 slow down these striker vehicles and to give folks an 0:57:16.280 --> 0:57:19.120 idea of what a striker vehicle is. You can look 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:24.160 it up online, but it's kind of halfway between um, 0:57:24.200 --> 0:57:26.400 you know, a tank and a humby. Doesn't have the 0:57:26.440 --> 0:57:29.520 slats you know that a tank would have. It's you know. 0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:32.320 And they were being used in both Iraq and Afghanistan 0:57:32.520 --> 0:57:36.200 for for raids of residential areas. They were really on 0:57:36.240 --> 0:57:40.160 the front lines of of the war in in both 0:57:40.160 --> 0:57:42.800 those countries, and that's what we're trying to stop. I 0:57:42.840 --> 0:57:45.960 only got involved later, um, because I wasn't living in 0:57:46.000 --> 0:57:48.920 Olympia at the time. UM. I was in another STS chapter, 0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:51.440 but my roommate was from Olympia and he had been 0:57:51.480 --> 0:57:57.640 involved in that first round of protests in Olympia before 0:57:58.320 --> 0:58:01.680 moving up to Ballingham. Yeah. So, like hearing his story 0:58:01.720 --> 0:58:07.400 has got me very excited because just like, finally someone's 0:58:07.440 --> 0:58:12.240 someone's doing something like someone's they're not just like you know, 0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:18.240 it's like everything else was just so liberal, whether it's 0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:20.920 marching from one place to another or writing to your 0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:23.760 congress people or occupying their office. It was like asking 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:27.640 someone else to do something which you knew from the 0:58:27.680 --> 0:58:31.600 beginning they were never going to do. And finally this 0:58:31.680 --> 0:58:37.480 was finally someone was like actually getting into it. Um. 0:58:37.640 --> 0:58:40.640 I think the first one of the things that happened 0:58:40.640 --> 0:58:47.800 here was that um, they started to avoid UM. There's 0:58:49.040 --> 0:58:51.959 it's kind of a geographical thing, I think for people 0:58:52.000 --> 0:58:57.520 who either don't know Washington Washington, or because they're normal 0:58:57.560 --> 0:59:02.040 people don't know like the port areas of these cities 0:59:02.160 --> 0:59:05.160 very well, because it's like like unless you're a long sherman, like, 0:59:05.200 --> 0:59:07.360 why you would you go down to like the port 0:59:07.360 --> 0:59:16.040 of Tacoma. UM. But they kept moving it around because 0:59:16.360 --> 0:59:21.920 UM Olympia is also not very big and UM, so 0:59:22.080 --> 0:59:25.520 it's there's really only two roads into the port, which 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:29.080 is very small, and so it was it's very easy 0:59:29.120 --> 0:59:34.880 to block it. UM. And so then I think the 0:59:34.920 --> 0:59:37.560 first time that I got involved UM was in two 0:59:37.640 --> 0:59:41.880 thousands seven when they had moved it because they kept 0:59:41.920 --> 0:59:44.680 moving it around to try and switch things up and 0:59:45.600 --> 0:59:51.080 wait before the moving the ship around, No, it's like 0:59:52.080 --> 0:59:55.640 they had to make a military ship men. They would UM. 0:59:55.960 --> 0:59:59.080 It's like like once the ship it was in the port, 0:59:59.240 --> 1:00:01.000 they would just I have to go through with it. 1:00:01.680 --> 1:00:04.760 But then UM, you know it's like everything. Every six 1:00:04.840 --> 1:00:07.120 months or so, they had to make another military shipment 1:00:07.680 --> 1:00:11.560 and they would change the port usually each time, UM 1:00:11.600 --> 1:00:14.880 to try and let basically to avoid us. It doesn't 1:00:14.920 --> 1:00:18.680 seem like this is like normal craps UM. The first 1:00:18.680 --> 1:00:21.320 time I had gone down was in UM Tacoma, which 1:00:21.400 --> 1:00:24.880 is a much much much more industrialized port than Olympia. 1:00:25.200 --> 1:00:28.400 It's you know, it's like a big port, a more 1:00:28.440 --> 1:00:34.960 normal port, I guess. And that one was honestly pretty crazy, um, 1:00:35.080 --> 1:00:40.200 because you're just trapped in this giant industrial maze basically 1:00:40.200 --> 1:00:43.320 at the mercy of the riot cops. The best success 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:46.000 we had was definitely at the Port of Olympia. UM. 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:51.600 I think in the in two thousand seven in Olympia 1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:57.360 was definitely it's like the glory moment, which was when 1:00:58.840 --> 1:01:03.680 people were able to on and off like actually hold 1:01:03.720 --> 1:01:07.439 the port and control it. The Yeah, and I wanna 1:01:07.760 --> 1:01:11.880 you know, just emphasize that, like the one the military 1:01:12.040 --> 1:01:15.600 changing their approach right to avoid us so jumping from 1:01:15.600 --> 1:01:18.480 port to port with these different shipments. They actually went 1:01:18.560 --> 1:01:21.640 so far because we were so successful as a movement 1:01:21.760 --> 1:01:26.640 in the Pacific Northwest to ship striker vehicles by rail 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:31.120 out of the Pacific Northwest and even going so far 1:01:31.160 --> 1:01:34.720 as to ports and Texas. I don't know, but you know, 1:01:34.800 --> 1:01:37.520 one one thing that we did is that we built 1:01:37.600 --> 1:01:41.240 up contacts with other activists with longshore workers all up 1:01:41.280 --> 1:01:44.120 and down the West coast in California. There are other 1:01:44.120 --> 1:01:48.120 activists were connected with in Texas, Hawaii, New Jersey, and 1:01:48.120 --> 1:01:51.040 New York. There is a desire in the anti war movement. 1:01:51.680 --> 1:01:54.600 Uh and and you know, in some extent maybe it's 1:01:54.640 --> 1:01:57.960 like it was small. But some folks in the labor movement, 1:01:58.040 --> 1:02:02.480 especially in Oakland or the i LW the you know 1:02:02.560 --> 1:02:05.200 longshore Workers Union, it's a lot more militant than say 1:02:05.240 --> 1:02:09.200 in a place like Olympia. UM. But yeah, I mean 1:02:09.240 --> 1:02:12.760 people wanted to replicate this model because, as Juliana said, 1:02:12.760 --> 1:02:14.959 we wore successful in two thousand and seven, we shut 1:02:15.000 --> 1:02:17.920 down the port of Olympia for a total of it 1:02:18.000 --> 1:02:21.800 was essentially two days. They were not they're not shipping 1:02:21.800 --> 1:02:26.240 anything in or out. We set up blockades, were willing 1:02:26.280 --> 1:02:29.160 to throw down with the police in the street. And 1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:31.520 one of the things that was cool about that blockade 1:02:31.560 --> 1:02:34.640 is that one of the there's two entrances, like I said, 1:02:34.680 --> 1:02:37.640 and one was completely blockaded and then the other one, UM, 1:02:37.720 --> 1:02:40.680 we had like a moving I don't really know what 1:02:40.720 --> 1:02:42.680 it was, but something with wheels that we can move 1:02:42.680 --> 1:02:45.040 in and out UM to open it up, and so 1:02:45.080 --> 1:02:47.880 then we could allow like civilian cargo to move in 1:02:47.920 --> 1:02:51.720 and out, but then like we feel it back in place, 1:02:52.280 --> 1:02:56.600 UM to block military shipments. So we were able to 1:02:56.640 --> 1:03:00.480 actually like stopped them from like what while in that 1:03:00.480 --> 1:03:02.280 oneted to come, we able to actually like stopped them 1:03:02.280 --> 1:03:04.880 from moving the self all together. Would you whentually cleared 1:03:04.920 --> 1:03:06.720 up by the police and they moved it, we would 1:03:06.720 --> 1:03:08.520 eventually get cleared out by the police. It's like we 1:03:08.520 --> 1:03:11.919 were never able to It's like we're we we held 1:03:11.960 --> 1:03:16.520 it for two days. That those protests took place over 1:03:16.520 --> 1:03:20.080 a series of two weeks or more or less. Um, 1:03:20.120 --> 1:03:22.400 we were only able to fully hold it for two 1:03:22.480 --> 1:03:27.840 days before eventually they would clear us out. But one 1:03:27.880 --> 1:03:30.480 of the things is that it this does it did 1:03:30.520 --> 1:03:36.880 create problems for the army because when you work with 1:03:36.920 --> 1:03:39.360 a port, you know, it's like you've got like a 1:03:39.400 --> 1:03:43.080 certain time frame that you've contracted with the port to 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:46.880 do whatever it is because you're going to do and 1:03:47.120 --> 1:03:51.920 it's not too happy if you take longer than you 1:03:51.960 --> 1:03:55.280 said you would or yeah, yeah. And the other thing 1:03:55.320 --> 1:03:57.480 I want to add is, you know, I think the 1:03:57.520 --> 1:04:00.360 other really important element with this whole movement going on 1:04:01.160 --> 1:04:07.000 is the Pacific Northwest was um it is specifically western 1:04:07.040 --> 1:04:09.680 Washington where the two of us were living. It was 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:14.680 it was, you know, the center and in a sense 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:16.560 it was the heart of the anti war movement in 1:04:16.600 --> 1:04:19.640 the country at that time. One because of this militant 1:04:19.720 --> 1:04:24.640 direct action that we were, you know, we were building 1:04:24.720 --> 1:04:26.760 up in the streets and trying to throw a wrench 1:04:27.520 --> 1:04:31.160 in the gears of the war machine to to at 1:04:31.160 --> 1:04:34.040 the veryly slowed down, which in some ways we did. 1:04:34.120 --> 1:04:37.400 But we're up against so much. But the other added element, 1:04:37.480 --> 1:04:40.920 of course is the g I resistance and the soldiers 1:04:40.960 --> 1:04:44.000 who are resisting. I've all also known as the Rock 1:04:44.120 --> 1:04:47.439 Veterans against the War was very active there. They set 1:04:47.480 --> 1:04:51.080 up a g I coffeehouse across you know, literally across 1:04:51.160 --> 1:04:54.480 the street, uh, you know, the gates for one of 1:04:54.480 --> 1:04:58.520 the entrances for Fort Louis Um. There are a whole 1:04:58.560 --> 1:05:02.000 bunch of soldiers that we're going a wall. We had 1:05:02.080 --> 1:05:05.200 friends who were active duty soldiers who had fought in 1:05:05.880 --> 1:05:09.040 you know, Iraq and Afghanistan that were a wall and 1:05:09.080 --> 1:05:11.880 they were hiding, you know, refusing to go back into 1:05:12.000 --> 1:05:16.800 the striker brigades that joined us in Portan militarization resistance. Uh. 1:05:16.840 --> 1:05:19.640 There are a whole, you know, long list of soldiers 1:05:19.680 --> 1:05:24.880 that were very publicly saying, you know, I'm refusing to 1:05:25.240 --> 1:05:29.400 fight in Iraq or Afghanistan for you know, various reasons. 1:05:29.800 --> 1:05:33.040 And so we are very much connected with this movement too. 1:05:33.360 --> 1:05:36.000 And I think the higher ups in the military, they're 1:05:36.160 --> 1:05:40.120 they're hyper aware of that. They studied us very well, um, 1:05:40.160 --> 1:05:42.840 you know, to the point of actually spying on us. 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:45.600 So that's like a whole other element of this story too. 1:05:46.760 --> 1:05:48.680 Is one of the things that I've heard from talking 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:53.400 to other people who were involved in this was that like, wow, 1:05:53.480 --> 1:05:56.919 like during these protests, like the level of police militarization 1:05:57.080 --> 1:06:00.440 just like skyrocketed, And like I remember were I was 1:06:00.440 --> 1:06:01.880 talking friend about this, it was like, you know, if 1:06:02.080 --> 1:06:04.240 you go back and look at like old system of 1:06:04.240 --> 1:06:06.760 a down videos, you know, they'll they'lly'll have these things. Yeah, 1:06:06.800 --> 1:06:08.520 you'll see these you see these riot police and like 1:06:08.680 --> 1:06:11.880 you look at them and it's like these people they 1:06:11.920 --> 1:06:14.760 look so much less armored than like the people that 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:17.680 we have now. And one of the things that I 1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:20.120 thought was interesting about this was that like this is 1:06:20.360 --> 1:06:23.000 I think one of the points where you start getting 1:06:23.560 --> 1:06:26.000 the modern riot police showing up that are just like, 1:06:26.000 --> 1:06:29.520 you know, completely encased in like armor. And Yeah, I 1:06:29.560 --> 1:06:32.040 don't talk about just like the police response to this, 1:06:32.120 --> 1:06:35.120 because I think that's that's another thing. I think I 1:06:35.120 --> 1:06:37.080 think there's never there's a kind of a tendency to 1:06:37.120 --> 1:06:41.560 sort of project back what the police look like, just 1:06:41.760 --> 1:06:43.800 onto the whole history of police and I think it's 1:06:43.800 --> 1:06:46.800 like it's it's it's gotten worse even in the last 1:06:46.840 --> 1:06:52.760 twenty years. Yeah, I mean, so I lived downtown in 1:06:52.880 --> 1:06:55.600 Olympia and probably just like a six minute walk away 1:06:55.640 --> 1:06:59.960 from the Port of Olympia and and also very convenient, 1:07:00.080 --> 1:07:03.000 like just a few blocks away from the police station. 1:07:03.120 --> 1:07:05.760 So so lucky us. So we actually saw, you know, 1:07:05.800 --> 1:07:08.640 we could see from the front of down on the road, 1:07:08.680 --> 1:07:11.400 down the sidewalk from the front of our house. Uh, 1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:14.960 some of the military shipments going by, and we we 1:07:14.960 --> 1:07:17.920 we did see that absolutely, and at at times it 1:07:18.080 --> 1:07:20.360 was it was terrifying. I mean I lived in an 1:07:20.400 --> 1:07:25.400 activis house we jokingly called h Q because that's just 1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:28.520 you know where because of its proximity to the port. 1:07:28.600 --> 1:07:31.640 That's where a number of us were having meetings, uh, 1:07:31.680 --> 1:07:34.880 you know, around these protests early on in two thousand six, 1:07:35.560 --> 1:07:39.800 and um, yeah, I mean we like they look like 1:07:39.920 --> 1:07:43.200 RoboCop and it's something I had I you know, I 1:07:43.240 --> 1:07:46.800 hadn't like I had been to like mass marches and 1:07:46.840 --> 1:07:51.280 demonstrations like the RNC protests and d NC protests in Boston, 1:07:51.320 --> 1:07:55.120 New York and like in Washington, d c uh and 1:07:55.160 --> 1:07:59.680 so I would see these like riot cops, but they 1:07:59.680 --> 1:08:02.920 were I mean ubiquitous in the support protests. It was 1:08:02.960 --> 1:08:05.080 like a whole army of them that was sent out. 1:08:05.120 --> 1:08:08.040 I mean when Juliana said that things got kind of 1:08:08.040 --> 1:08:10.680 crazy at the Port of Tacoma protests, I mean there 1:08:10.800 --> 1:08:13.520 was like a police riot, you know, like the cops 1:08:13.800 --> 1:08:17.639 went absolutely nuts, are shooting people with tear gas and 1:08:17.760 --> 1:08:21.880 pepper balls and and brutalizing people. I had never before 1:08:21.920 --> 1:08:24.240 witnessed anything like that. And it got to the point 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:27.160 in you know, in Olympia where we we kind of 1:08:27.240 --> 1:08:29.559 knew early on that we were being traced by the 1:08:29.600 --> 1:08:33.360 police to the extent where you know, one friend of 1:08:33.360 --> 1:08:37.080 ours was followed from our house to the bus station 1:08:37.280 --> 1:08:40.080 to take a bus to school by the police and 1:08:40.120 --> 1:08:44.120 then was stopped and essentially assaulted by them on the street. 1:08:44.320 --> 1:08:48.640 And we had another fellow activists and you know, a 1:08:48.680 --> 1:08:52.120 roommate of mine who is going out to driving out 1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:55.959 with a few friends, uh few fellow activists from Olympia 1:08:56.000 --> 1:08:58.680 to Aberdeen, about an hour's drive. So Aberdeen, there's a 1:08:58.720 --> 1:09:02.240 port of grays Harbor there, pretty conservative small town. It's 1:09:02.280 --> 1:09:06.639 where Kurt Cobain is from, home of the famous Kurt 1:09:06.680 --> 1:09:14.920 Cobain teams. McDonald's. They served billions and and billions served 1:09:14.920 --> 1:09:18.680 and that one McDonald's and Kurt Cobain's McDonald's. But yeah, 1:09:18.760 --> 1:09:21.880 I mean the you know, they they were they were following. 1:09:21.920 --> 1:09:26.960 They had orders the Washington State Patrol two, um, you know, 1:09:27.160 --> 1:09:31.280 pull over a car full full of known anarchists. There 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:33.680 was alert gone out to all the police departments. They 1:09:33.720 --> 1:09:36.439 pulled them. They pulled him over, they made him walk 1:09:36.479 --> 1:09:39.080 the line. He was had you know, wasn't drinking and 1:09:39.200 --> 1:09:42.280 no drugs, like nothing in his system. But they he 1:09:42.360 --> 1:09:44.880 was driving under like one mile per hour under the 1:09:45.000 --> 1:09:49.640 speed limit. They arrested him for d d W I 1:09:49.840 --> 1:09:53.320 you know, eventually fought the chargers sued um uh and 1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:55.960 you know what a big settlement out of all that. 1:09:56.000 --> 1:09:59.479 But that's just one example of many of the lengths 1:09:59.520 --> 1:10:02.240 at the police would go to. It was pretty severe. 1:10:02.320 --> 1:10:06.559 Even there's a house of a bunch of anarchists, younger 1:10:06.600 --> 1:10:10.200 anarchists called the pitch Pipe Info Shop in Tacoma, and 1:10:10.240 --> 1:10:12.759 that was also a big target. The police were swarming 1:10:12.800 --> 1:10:15.920 around them all the time. They had like cameras set 1:10:16.000 --> 1:10:18.760 up like specifically just outside the Infra shop, Like there 1:10:18.840 --> 1:10:20.840 weren't surrounds cameras there before, but then it was like, 1:10:20.840 --> 1:10:23.920 oh well, just conveniently put them on this one specific 1:10:23.960 --> 1:10:27.479 street corner. Yeah. I think like that was one of 1:10:27.479 --> 1:10:28.760 the things I was reading about this is you have 1:10:28.880 --> 1:10:31.320 that stuff. And then also I think one of the 1:10:31.320 --> 1:10:33.960 steerest parts of this is that like Army intelligence gets 1:10:34.000 --> 1:10:37.200 involved and yeah, do you want to talk about the 1:10:37.240 --> 1:10:40.360 man named quote unquote John Jacob, who was in fact 1:10:40.439 --> 1:10:44.719 not that Yeah, so, uh, you know, I'm curious what 1:10:44.720 --> 1:10:47.519 what memories you have of our our good dear friend 1:10:47.800 --> 1:10:51.120 John Jacob Juliana. I don't think I ever actually knew 1:10:51.160 --> 1:10:55.240 him in person, but he was the moderator of the 1:10:55.280 --> 1:10:58.320 List Serve, wasn't he. Yes, he's one of the moderators 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:00.840 of our list Serve now that I look back on him, 1:11:00.920 --> 1:11:05.439 like the apport militarization resistance, the sirup with always just 1:11:05.520 --> 1:11:09.080 like this dramatic ship show, and it's like, looking back 1:11:09.120 --> 1:11:16.439 on it, I was like, oh, a cop that did 1:11:16.560 --> 1:11:23.120 nothing that absolutely nothing to like established order or uh 1:11:23.680 --> 1:11:27.120 I if that was on purpose? Yeah, so I think 1:11:27.120 --> 1:11:29.880 there's definitely something that happened like you know, looking back 1:11:30.400 --> 1:11:32.960 from our vantage point today, it's like, Okay, things make 1:11:32.960 --> 1:11:35.360 a little more sense at the time though, And we're 1:11:35.360 --> 1:11:39.120 in this movement, right and so that means like meeting 1:11:39.120 --> 1:11:41.639 people where they're at, we find all kinds of people 1:11:41.760 --> 1:11:43.680 that would like want to join the movement like I, 1:11:44.040 --> 1:11:46.759 like I said earlier, like active duty soldiers that were joining. 1:11:47.200 --> 1:11:50.720 So I met this guy named John Jacob and he 1:11:50.800 --> 1:11:52.320 sent an email out to me. I was one of 1:11:52.360 --> 1:11:55.799 the contacts for the Olympia STS group and it's like, hey, 1:11:56.160 --> 1:11:58.599 you know, there's kind of like a parent organization that's 1:11:58.600 --> 1:12:02.160 some old like elder activists are in, uh to kind 1:12:02.200 --> 1:12:05.439 of mentor us called Movement for a Democratic Society. Very small, 1:12:05.560 --> 1:12:09.040 never really took off, but like I'm interested in getting involved. 1:12:09.800 --> 1:12:11.800 We met up in public and he seemed like an 1:12:11.800 --> 1:12:15.400 alright guy. I mean he was, um, you know, forty 1:12:15.560 --> 1:12:19.120 ish early forties. He had told me, like you know, 1:12:19.240 --> 1:12:21.679 been in the military for years and he actually still 1:12:21.680 --> 1:12:25.719 worked at Fort Lewis, so he was always open about that, 1:12:26.120 --> 1:12:29.880 but it only went that far. He didn't ever tell 1:12:29.960 --> 1:12:32.520 us what he actually did there, and it wasn't abnormal 1:12:32.600 --> 1:12:35.960 for you know, we have many folks that worked active duty, 1:12:36.520 --> 1:12:40.759 you know, on base and civilian civilian roles or soldiers. 1:12:40.760 --> 1:12:44.679 As I mentioned that we're in port militarization resistance. So 1:12:44.760 --> 1:12:47.240 he gets involved, and he gets really involved with port 1:12:47.280 --> 1:12:50.479 militarization resistance. He goes to protests, He gets pretty close 1:12:50.520 --> 1:12:55.000 with this group of anarchists I mentioned who lived in Tacoma, UM, 1:12:55.040 --> 1:12:57.880 and he seemed like a really solid guy to to 1:12:58.040 --> 1:13:02.040 most of us. UM. And you know, things happen as 1:13:02.080 --> 1:13:06.200 as we progress, and you know, as a military responded 1:13:06.280 --> 1:13:09.680 to our uh you know how effective we wore in 1:13:09.720 --> 1:13:12.599 the anti war movement and the g I resistance movement 1:13:13.080 --> 1:13:18.320 by changing their tactics. We noticed that Okay, when we 1:13:18.360 --> 1:13:22.720 first started the protests, UM, we we had the ability 1:13:23.160 --> 1:13:26.120 to catch the police by surprise by setting up you know, 1:13:26.120 --> 1:13:29.639 a blockade here, we're having a surprise action there at 1:13:29.680 --> 1:13:33.519 this time, or this port, etcetera, etcetera. And as time progressed, 1:13:33.560 --> 1:13:36.240 we found out that you know, we were having these 1:13:36.720 --> 1:13:39.679 making these decisions for tactics in our strategy. We thought 1:13:39.720 --> 1:13:43.439 that we're in private and then for whatever reason, the 1:13:43.479 --> 1:13:46.000 police kind of knew about where we were going to 1:13:46.080 --> 1:13:49.280 be before we even showed up. And that I remember 1:13:49.280 --> 1:13:53.640 that clearly happening in two thousand seven the Port of Olympia. Yeah, 1:13:53.680 --> 1:13:56.680 and the COMMA. There was a lot of things like that. 1:13:56.800 --> 1:13:59.280 Like there is one time when there are like some 1:13:59.360 --> 1:14:03.639 people who had a meeting in a closed room, like 1:14:03.720 --> 1:14:06.240 all there they had taken the batteries out of their 1:14:06.240 --> 1:14:10.519 cell phones. They had simply written on the whiteboard the 1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:12.519 time and place they were going to have their next meeting, 1:14:12.520 --> 1:14:14.240 which is going to be in a diner near the port. 1:14:15.040 --> 1:14:16.920 And so that way if like if for any reason 1:14:16.920 --> 1:14:21.520 the room was bugged, it wouldn't be caught up because 1:14:21.720 --> 1:14:24.519 it was just written on a board. And then it 1:14:24.600 --> 1:14:26.320 was like a small meeting too, So it's like there 1:14:26.320 --> 1:14:30.320 were and then when they got to that dinner, there's 1:14:30.400 --> 1:14:35.479 like full of cops like clearly waiting for them. Like 1:14:36.080 --> 1:14:38.120 at that point, it's like it was very clear there 1:14:38.160 --> 1:14:43.400 was some some level of infiltration involved. Yeah, And I 1:14:43.400 --> 1:14:46.160 think we from early on, like you know, we we 1:14:46.240 --> 1:14:48.400 knew our history. I mean, you know, one of our 1:14:48.439 --> 1:14:51.360 our fellow activists and p Mars and a friend of ours, 1:14:51.360 --> 1:14:54.760 Peter Boehmer's professor at the Evergreen State College. He was 1:14:54.800 --> 1:14:58.640 in the original sts back in the sixties, and you know, 1:14:58.800 --> 1:15:02.160 he was essentially a political prisoner for a couple of 1:15:02.200 --> 1:15:05.439 years in both Massachusetts and California. UM, I mean the 1:15:05.439 --> 1:15:10.040 FEDS essentially tried to assassinate him. Um back in in 1:15:10.080 --> 1:15:12.160 the seventies when he was active in the anti war 1:15:12.280 --> 1:15:15.639 movement in San Diego. Like we knew, you know, former 1:15:15.680 --> 1:15:18.240 Black Panthers, and we read our history, so we knew 1:15:18.240 --> 1:15:21.559 about the history of cointelpro the counterintelligence program of the 1:15:21.560 --> 1:15:24.599 six season seventies and the war on the anti war 1:15:24.640 --> 1:15:29.919 and civil rights and black power, American Indian movements, etcetera. UM, 1:15:29.960 --> 1:15:33.800 so we knew, you know, just intuitively early on. Uh. 1:15:33.840 --> 1:15:37.080 But there's one thing that happened in particular which prompted 1:15:37.120 --> 1:15:39.400 some of us to file for a public records request 1:15:39.439 --> 1:15:43.519 with the City of Olympia and another activists walking down 1:15:43.520 --> 1:15:46.640 the street in Olympia. I'm a member of the Wobby's 1:15:46.680 --> 1:15:49.000 Industrial Workers of the World Union, and we had like 1:15:49.200 --> 1:15:52.519 one of those metal newspaper boxes downtown and it was 1:15:52.800 --> 1:15:56.000 locked to a poll um, you know, with a bike lock. 1:15:56.240 --> 1:15:58.280 And there are some city workers there with a pickup 1:15:58.280 --> 1:16:02.600 truck and they're cutting the to this newspaper box and 1:16:02.600 --> 1:16:05.080 they threw it in their pickup truck and so are 1:16:05.200 --> 1:16:06.800 you know this friend of ours was there. I was like, 1:16:06.840 --> 1:16:08.920 what the hell, what are you doing? What's going on? 1:16:09.120 --> 1:16:10.920 And one of the workers just kind of strugged and 1:16:11.040 --> 1:16:13.000 was like, I don't know, the police told us to 1:16:13.040 --> 1:16:16.000 do this, and they drove off like they stole you know, 1:16:16.160 --> 1:16:20.080 are essentially like our union property or whatever. UM. So 1:16:20.120 --> 1:16:23.080 we had you know, our our lawyer friend Larry Hildes 1:16:23.120 --> 1:16:25.639 and the National Lawyer's Guild you know, call and kind 1:16:25.640 --> 1:16:28.519 of threatened the city and and then a number of 1:16:28.560 --> 1:16:30.599 us got together like, hey, you know, let's do like 1:16:30.680 --> 1:16:34.360 a public records requests UM with the City of of 1:16:34.520 --> 1:16:39.439 Olympia freedom of information law right, and so we did. 1:16:39.560 --> 1:16:43.559 And the request was, you know, just requesting any all 1:16:43.640 --> 1:16:48.400 information the city had UM, any exchanges communications by email, 1:16:48.439 --> 1:16:53.520 etcetera UM between the police and like other agencies about anarchists, 1:16:54.000 --> 1:16:59.200 I WW Students for a Democratic Society UM. And their 1:16:59.240 --> 1:17:02.559 initials that the city clerk did yielded something like thirty 1:17:02.600 --> 1:17:06.519 thousand responses. So she's like, okay, I gotta narrow this down. 1:17:07.280 --> 1:17:09.759 And I don't know, I was working on the request 1:17:09.840 --> 1:17:12.559 at the time, and for some reason, like I don't 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:17.000 know where report protests are near military based communications between 1:17:17.120 --> 1:17:21.160 the army not thinking anything. And so the initial responses 1:17:21.320 --> 1:17:25.479 who actually got um, you know, maybe a hundred a 1:17:25.600 --> 1:17:31.320 hundred thirty or so different documents, just copies of emails, etcetera. That, um, 1:17:31.439 --> 1:17:35.160 we're little puzzle pieces for this massive puzzle. And it 1:17:35.240 --> 1:17:38.160 was just a few of them. Uh. And it was, 1:17:38.280 --> 1:17:41.200 you know, there was an email talking about our guy 1:17:41.520 --> 1:17:44.920 in the Navy going to a p MR meeting to 1:17:45.000 --> 1:17:48.320 get some intel. Uh. There's you know, all kinds of 1:17:48.320 --> 1:17:51.519 things like that. There are a few emails in particular. Um, 1:17:51.560 --> 1:17:54.960 and the email address was something like John John J. 1:17:55.120 --> 1:17:58.679 Towery at you know, Army dot us whatever the email 1:17:58.720 --> 1:18:01.920 address was. So, well, there's a crew of activists that 1:18:02.000 --> 1:18:05.360 got together, put their heads together, did some research quietly 1:18:05.400 --> 1:18:08.839 for a few months, and eventually found out by publicly 1:18:08.880 --> 1:18:14.439 accessible information like voter registration records and also finding out 1:18:14.520 --> 1:18:18.080 something about like a motorcycle club called like the I 1:18:18.120 --> 1:18:20.639 don't know, like the Brown Beauque Club or the Brown 1:18:20.680 --> 1:18:24.080 Butt Club or something and and the like. Found out 1:18:24.080 --> 1:18:26.480 that this John Towery guy that was in this motorcycle 1:18:26.520 --> 1:18:30.080 club and had his you know, was registered to vote 1:18:30.080 --> 1:18:33.320 outside of Tacoma, in this town there. It was actually 1:18:33.439 --> 1:18:36.559 John Jacob. It was this guy that we thought was 1:18:36.600 --> 1:18:41.240 a fellow activist, an anarchist um and and a friend, 1:18:41.360 --> 1:18:43.320 you know. I thought he was a personal friend of mine. 1:18:43.680 --> 1:18:47.360 Turns out he was actually essentially an Army intelligence officer 1:18:47.920 --> 1:18:51.479 working for something called the Force Protection Unit at uh 1:18:51.880 --> 1:18:55.479 At Joint Face Joint based Lewis McCord, and also working 1:18:56.439 --> 1:19:01.000 with a whole list of different agencies and turned out 1:19:01.040 --> 1:19:04.280 to be like a massive surveillance network that was national 1:19:04.280 --> 1:19:07.519 in scope. This guy was sent by the Army along 1:19:07.560 --> 1:19:11.240 with many others to infiltrate us, to aspire on us, 1:19:11.240 --> 1:19:15.160 and to disrupt us. Was huge. Yeah, And that that's 1:19:15.200 --> 1:19:16.719 one of the things that I've always always really interesting 1:19:16.720 --> 1:19:18.639 about this is like, so, like I I learned about 1:19:18.640 --> 1:19:22.439 poor militarization resistance basically because I was like poking around 1:19:22.479 --> 1:19:24.760 the history of like informists and I ran into this 1:19:24.800 --> 1:19:26.880 and I was like what because and then that was 1:19:26.920 --> 1:19:28.240 what I thought. One of the things I thought was 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:30.840 really interesting about this is that like, like I think 1:19:30.880 --> 1:19:33.639 that this chapter of the anti war movement is even 1:19:33.680 --> 1:19:36.240 on the left, is like not very well known, but 1:19:36.320 --> 1:19:39.080 like the seriousness which the army seems to have taken. 1:19:39.080 --> 1:19:42.479 It is like, is really remarkable. Yeah, I'm wondering what 1:19:42.560 --> 1:19:44.920 you to think about that. One thing we have to 1:19:44.960 --> 1:19:48.080 emphasize is is that we were not a large group 1:19:48.120 --> 1:19:52.559 of people. Like, um, the number of people who are 1:19:52.760 --> 1:19:57.760 actively involved in Portmoloditisation assistance at its speak was how 1:19:57.800 --> 1:20:00.679 many people do you think it was, Brandon? It depends. 1:20:00.720 --> 1:20:02.880 I mean I'd say they're probably like at its peak 1:20:03.000 --> 1:20:06.760 maybe probably four ye to fifty people that would like 1:20:06.840 --> 1:20:10.799 consistently show up to things. You know, maybe a slightly smaller, 1:20:10.960 --> 1:20:13.720 very core group, but we would have demonstrations with like 1:20:13.760 --> 1:20:17.280 and then like four people you know, yeah, and like 1:20:17.560 --> 1:20:22.080 that would be like the max like there is it's 1:20:22.080 --> 1:20:27.200 like there are like the peaceful like kind of like 1:20:27.200 --> 1:20:29.679 support actions. You know, you would get like a couple 1:20:29.760 --> 1:20:33.800 hundred people and then like for the stuff like where 1:20:33.800 --> 1:20:38.320 it's like the first night that that the part of 1:20:38.520 --> 1:20:41.080 the entrance to the part of Olympia was occupied, it 1:20:41.080 --> 1:20:46.080 would be like, um, these were not these were not 1:20:46.200 --> 1:20:49.960 very large groups of people. Um. I feel like and 1:20:50.000 --> 1:20:51.760 like I said, it's like one thing that we need 1:20:51.800 --> 1:20:54.360 to keep in mind was that, um, the peace police 1:20:54.400 --> 1:20:58.720 were much stronger back then than they are now nowadays. 1:20:59.040 --> 1:21:01.639 Lating like as we saw last year, it's like people 1:21:01.640 --> 1:21:05.640 in the US of learn to throw down, but that 1:21:05.720 --> 1:21:09.320 was not the case at the time. And so this 1:21:09.479 --> 1:21:12.519 is a very very small group of people. UM. I 1:21:12.520 --> 1:21:17.400 think we accomplished a lot from with how small it was. UM. 1:21:17.479 --> 1:21:21.360 If it had been larger, it would have accomplished way more. UM. 1:21:21.439 --> 1:21:32.639 But even that small core of like people with maybe 1:21:33.360 --> 1:21:36.840 expanding out to like a larger group of a couple 1:21:36.840 --> 1:21:42.599 of hundred, had them that scared that they went that far. 1:21:43.080 --> 1:21:45.240 They're trying to disrupt it. Yeah, And and this is 1:21:45.280 --> 1:21:47.320 one of the things I've been thinking about a lot 1:21:47.439 --> 1:21:50.800 recently of this needs to be a very consistent thing, 1:21:50.880 --> 1:21:54.920 which is it like the two things that are guaranteed 1:21:55.200 --> 1:21:58.280 to like just have a hammer drop on you if 1:21:58.280 --> 1:22:02.920 you touch them is pipeline and ports. And that that 1:22:03.000 --> 1:22:05.600 was that was something you know, we we've talked a 1:22:05.600 --> 1:22:10.040 lot on here about pipeline protests. UM. But I was 1:22:10.080 --> 1:22:15.839 interested in what you two think about, because, yeah, this 1:22:15.840 --> 1:22:20.360 this is like of very particular moment right now in 1:22:20.400 --> 1:22:23.599 what you're dealing with all these logistics chain failures. And 1:22:23.640 --> 1:22:25.360 I was wondering if if you do think there's anything 1:22:25.439 --> 1:22:29.840 that we can learn from how your versions of the 1:22:29.880 --> 1:22:34.680 sort of of port demonstrations worked for potentially trying to 1:22:34.760 --> 1:22:38.560 leverage that in the future, especially with like contract negotiations 1:22:38.600 --> 1:22:42.840 for port workers in Oakland coming up next year. Yeah, 1:22:42.880 --> 1:22:46.160 that's a great question. You know, it's this old saying 1:22:46.320 --> 1:22:49.280 and the I w W direct action gets goods, right, 1:22:49.320 --> 1:22:51.200 and I think it really boils down to that it's 1:22:51.240 --> 1:22:57.320 building up uh, you know, mass movements and social movements 1:22:57.360 --> 1:23:01.360 from below that rely under wrecked action, that rely on 1:23:01.400 --> 1:23:06.640 civil resistance, civil disobedience. Um. Yeah, and the pipeline protests 1:23:06.680 --> 1:23:10.200 that have been ongoing where Indigenous people have been on 1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:13.120 the front lines of that for many many years now. 1:23:13.560 --> 1:23:16.720 I mean, the kind of repression and surveillance that we 1:23:16.840 --> 1:23:21.800 face really pales in comparison to the kinds of you know, 1:23:21.880 --> 1:23:25.760 surveillance of repression that folks were facing at Standing Rock 1:23:25.800 --> 1:23:30.640 for example. Um. You know, I think, of course, one 1:23:30.640 --> 1:23:33.800 of the well one of the main differences is that 1:23:33.880 --> 1:23:37.960 it was primarily the military, you know, with us, right, 1:23:38.040 --> 1:23:42.360 that was uh surveilling us because this is very specifically 1:23:42.720 --> 1:23:46.759 you know, a war issue and a military issue. Um. 1:23:47.240 --> 1:23:51.160 But yeah, I mean I think, um, you know, like 1:23:52.040 --> 1:23:53.880 I think there's a big questions like what what do 1:23:53.880 --> 1:23:56.439 we have to do that's that's new? And to me, 1:23:56.520 --> 1:23:59.120 I say, you know, for both that kind of militant action, 1:23:59.160 --> 1:24:01.760 but also for the labor or movements, like, it's not 1:24:02.160 --> 1:24:04.720 you know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There 1:24:04.760 --> 1:24:09.600 are things that have tried and true track record of 1:24:09.640 --> 1:24:12.840 getting the goods and that is you know, these more 1:24:12.920 --> 1:24:18.360 disruptive kind of actions and movements. Um, And so one 1:24:18.360 --> 1:24:20.839 of them would be you know, I guess my suggestion 1:24:20.880 --> 1:24:23.840 would be to like go back to the basics. And 1:24:23.920 --> 1:24:26.879 even like I would say, now, you know this, remember 1:24:26.880 --> 1:24:30.680 this at a time when like Facebook was around, right, like, 1:24:30.840 --> 1:24:33.439 but we weren't really using that for our organizing. We 1:24:33.520 --> 1:24:36.880 really relied on like face to face meetings, you know, 1:24:37.000 --> 1:24:41.240 phone calls and building up trust with people and building 1:24:41.280 --> 1:24:44.240 up our capacity to like take actions and make change. 1:24:44.280 --> 1:24:46.839 You know, I think I'm not saying throw out everything 1:24:46.920 --> 1:24:49.080 that you know that at least some of the good 1:24:49.080 --> 1:24:51.599 that social media has to offer, but like I think 1:24:51.640 --> 1:24:54.919 going beyond that and going back to these older tactics. 1:24:54.920 --> 1:24:57.599 And then for the labor movement, like the big thing is, 1:24:57.760 --> 1:25:00.439 you know, and it's just like a bigger question or 1:25:00.920 --> 1:25:05.320 for mainstream unions in particular, I mean they're that the 1:25:05.360 --> 1:25:09.519 whole idea of like union contracts is that workers also 1:25:09.600 --> 1:25:12.599 lose a lot. Yeah, they get some things, but uh, 1:25:12.960 --> 1:25:16.800 business owners and bosses have rights carved out in in 1:25:16.840 --> 1:25:20.040 those contracts. And with the longshore workers, I mean the 1:25:20.120 --> 1:25:22.240 difficult thing with that, of course, is like there would 1:25:22.240 --> 1:25:25.799 be some symbolic strikes that of course, like longshore workers 1:25:26.200 --> 1:25:29.200 have done and continue to do, you know, around like 1:25:29.600 --> 1:25:34.920 the war Iraq historically supporting movie a bou Jamal maydea, etcetera, 1:25:35.640 --> 1:25:38.280 like in Oakland, um, but they have some things for 1:25:38.320 --> 1:25:41.240 that written into their contracts, and you know, for all 1:25:41.280 --> 1:25:44.600 these other like unions it's like, well, you know, we 1:25:44.680 --> 1:25:49.000 can't strike at all for for the next two years, 1:25:49.000 --> 1:25:51.600 the next three years, whatever the life of the contract is. Like, 1:25:51.800 --> 1:25:53.920 I think it's a bigger question and challenge for the 1:25:54.000 --> 1:25:58.080 labor movement to move beyond that and not be putting 1:25:58.120 --> 1:26:02.400 this strait jacket of of contracts like that. Yeah, I 1:26:02.439 --> 1:26:05.200 think that that particularly like the no no strike clause 1:26:06.080 --> 1:26:08.240 part of contracts, I take an interesting thing because it 1:26:09.520 --> 1:26:12.599 I don't know there's not. I mean, there are some 1:26:12.720 --> 1:26:17.680 unions that will actually do stuff around fighting it, but 1:26:17.800 --> 1:26:20.240 mostly people just sort of don't care. And I think 1:26:20.800 --> 1:26:24.080 you wind up in a situation where it seems like 1:26:24.120 --> 1:26:26.960 you kind of have to plan your tactics around when 1:26:27.000 --> 1:26:30.360 contract negotiations are happening, because otherwise you can't actually get 1:26:30.400 --> 1:26:32.160 people to do anything more in like a one day 1:26:32.160 --> 1:26:35.599 symbolic strike. Yeah, and or you know the challenges, like, 1:26:35.680 --> 1:26:38.720 you know, we have this great American tradition that's not 1:26:38.840 --> 1:26:42.000 unique to the US, it's universal really, and it's one 1:26:42.040 --> 1:26:46.080 that resonates with me breaking the law right and like 1:26:46.120 --> 1:26:49.280 we're you know, we're like civil disobedience. That is that 1:26:49.479 --> 1:26:51.599 what we are doing in the streets and blocking the ports. 1:26:51.680 --> 1:26:53.599 We were breaking the lawn. We knew it. And that's 1:26:53.600 --> 1:26:56.639 what the civil rights movement, the Black freedom movement did 1:26:56.800 --> 1:27:01.439 in in the nineties sixties. But like we have recent 1:27:01.560 --> 1:27:06.080 examples of workers breaking the law and mass like the 1:27:06.120 --> 1:27:09.760 West Virginia teacher strikes that happened a few years ago, 1:27:10.280 --> 1:27:13.559 Like teachers in every single county in that state went 1:27:13.600 --> 1:27:17.160 on strike. They broke the law, and and they want 1:27:17.280 --> 1:27:19.439 something out of that. And I think that's what we 1:27:19.520 --> 1:27:23.560 really need to encourage people. Is this idea of breaking 1:27:23.680 --> 1:27:26.400 out of like the norm and and breaking the laws 1:27:26.439 --> 1:27:29.200 which you know, the laws that are in place, which 1:27:29.200 --> 1:27:32.760 are not there to you know, expand our freedom there 1:27:32.880 --> 1:27:36.599 there too contracted. Yeah, one of one of my friends 1:27:37.200 --> 1:27:39.920 kind of joke about what was the exact line. It was, 1:27:40.400 --> 1:27:42.400 it's it's only illegal if you get caught and it 1:27:42.439 --> 1:27:44.640 only matters if you lose, which I think is a 1:27:44.680 --> 1:27:51.840 good way of thinking about both breaking. Yeah, and you know, yeah, 1:27:52.560 --> 1:27:54.760 I think it's also like it's worth mentioning that like 1:27:55.320 --> 1:27:58.960 the other side the law doesn't matter to them at all, 1:27:59.120 --> 1:28:01.080 Like they just tear it up and like light it 1:28:01.120 --> 1:28:04.880 on fire constantly. So don't don't bind yourself if if 1:28:04.880 --> 1:28:07.200 you can, if you can not get caught and not 1:28:07.560 --> 1:28:09.760 like go to prison for the rest of your life. 1:28:09.760 --> 1:28:13.000 Don't bind yourself by a bunch of like paper that 1:28:13.080 --> 1:28:17.880 the other side just doesn't care about. Yeah, And that's 1:28:17.920 --> 1:28:21.040 an excellent point because that's the big thing, you know, 1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:24.560 with the army and law enforcement in general, like surveillance 1:28:24.560 --> 1:28:27.160 of us they were in the police, just their actions, 1:28:27.160 --> 1:28:31.200 their brazen actions on the street, like the riot police. Um, 1:28:31.320 --> 1:28:34.880 they were just breaking the law all the time. They 1:28:34.920 --> 1:28:40.120 absolutely have a deep visceral hatred of the Bill of Rights, 1:28:40.360 --> 1:28:43.280 of civil rights and civil liberties. And so there were 1:28:43.280 --> 1:28:47.040 a number of, you know, court cases that sprung out 1:28:47.040 --> 1:28:50.080 of um, you know, this movement. There was a case 1:28:50.160 --> 1:28:55.559 called Panagocus Vitari another Juliana Panagoucus was another PMR member 1:28:56.000 --> 1:28:58.800 co plaintiff in that case. And you know, is it 1:28:59.560 --> 1:29:02.120 a case against the army that you know, we we 1:29:02.240 --> 1:29:04.400 waged and brought up to the Ninth Circuit Court of 1:29:04.439 --> 1:29:08.160 Appeals and you know, eventually lost and and it could 1:29:08.200 --> 1:29:10.080 have brought it to the Supreme Court but didn't. But 1:29:10.800 --> 1:29:12.760 you know, like the the other thing is like the 1:29:12.840 --> 1:29:15.800 violation of the posse commentatous Act. It was a whole 1:29:15.800 --> 1:29:17.439 other thing. You know, we don't have to get like 1:29:17.560 --> 1:29:21.040 so tied up into like the legalistic thing. But like 1:29:21.120 --> 1:29:23.880 the point, your point is valid, Like they don't care 1:29:23.920 --> 1:29:26.800 about the laws that are already there. They'll they'll just 1:29:27.520 --> 1:29:30.160 intentionally break them, break their own laws that they have 1:29:30.160 --> 1:29:32.960 set up, and you know, they'll just get a slap 1:29:33.000 --> 1:29:35.800 on the wrist because that's really all that's all that 1:29:35.840 --> 1:29:39.080 happens to them. I think, I think, I think that's 1:29:39.120 --> 1:29:42.040 a good note to end on. Break the law. It's fake, 1:29:42.200 --> 1:29:45.519 it's also bad. Um. Do you two have anything you 1:29:45.560 --> 1:29:48.240 want to plug other than that, other than you know, 1:29:48.320 --> 1:29:57.599 encouraging people to break the cage your local port. Yeah, yeah, 1:29:57.640 --> 1:30:01.719 I mean I I think it's you know, I guess 1:30:01.760 --> 1:30:05.040 just encourage people to do as you know. It sounds 1:30:05.080 --> 1:30:07.240 like what we're doing by having us on the show. 1:30:07.280 --> 1:30:12.200 And like there are some in our very recent history, um, 1:30:12.240 --> 1:30:15.799 you know, movements and winds that we all as activists 1:30:15.840 --> 1:30:20.080 today can still learn from. And I think part of that, um, 1:30:20.120 --> 1:30:21.880 you know, I don't want to call us elders because 1:30:21.880 --> 1:30:24.320 we're not that old, but like one part of that 1:30:24.479 --> 1:30:27.840 is like making sure like our movements are still like 1:30:28.160 --> 1:30:31.800 a multi generational and like we we learned from each 1:30:31.800 --> 1:30:35.439 other and also as as Juliana and I did, like 1:30:35.680 --> 1:30:38.519 I mentioned earlier, like we learned from the movements of 1:30:38.520 --> 1:30:43.680 the past, sts, the Black Panthers, the Black Freedom Movement, etcetera. Um, 1:30:43.680 --> 1:30:46.400 but there's a lot that you know, these these struggles 1:30:46.400 --> 1:30:52.120 I think have to offer us today. All Right, thank 1:30:52.200 --> 1:30:54.000 thank you, Thank you both for talking coming down and 1:30:54.040 --> 1:30:58.639 talking with us. You're for having us, Thank you. Well, 1:30:58.680 --> 1:31:00.479 this is this is when it could happen here. Uh 1:31:00.720 --> 1:31:04.759 find us at happened here pod on Twitter, Instagram, and 1:31:05.200 --> 1:31:07.040 the rest of our stuff is that close on media 1:31:07.280 --> 1:31:11.960 at the same somewhat accursed social media places. I don't 1:31:11.960 --> 1:31:16.479 know why I'm saying somewhat, They're just accursed. Yeah, see 1:31:16.479 --> 1:31:27.800 you next time whenever. That is what's up, guys. I'm 1:31:27.840 --> 1:31:29.760 a Shop Aloud and I am Troy Millions and we 1:31:29.800 --> 1:31:32.120 are the host of the Earnier Leisure podcast where we 1:31:32.200 --> 1:31:35.800 break down business models and examine the latest trends and finance. 1:31:35.960 --> 1:31:37.920 We hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of 1:31:37.960 --> 1:31:40.639 the biggest names of business, sport, and entertainment, from DJ 1:31:40.800 --> 1:31:43.599 Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean, 1:31:43.600 --> 1:31:46.439 our alumni list is expansive, listening as our guests reveal 1:31:46.479 --> 1:31:49.439 their business models, hardships and triumphs and their respective fields. 1:31:49.439 --> 1:31:51.400 The knowledge is in death and the questions are always 1:31:51.439 --> 1:31:53.960 delivered from your standpoint. We want to know what you 1:31:53.960 --> 1:31:56.759 want to know. We talk to the legends of business, 1:31:56.800 --> 1:31:59.479 sports and entertainment about how they got their start and 1:31:59.520 --> 1:32:02.200 most only, how to make their money. Earnie Alisia is 1:32:02.200 --> 1:32:04.559 a college business class mixed with pop culture. I want 1:32:04.560 --> 1:32:06.840 to learn about the real estate game. Unclear is how 1:32:06.840 --> 1:32:09.519 the stock market works. We got you interested in starting 1:32:09.520 --> 1:32:12.160 a trucking company or vendor machine business. Not really sure 1:32:12.200 --> 1:32:15.240 about how taxes or credit work. We got it all covered. 1:32:15.320 --> 1:32:18.439 The Earnie Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Ernie 1:32:18.520 --> 1:32:21.840 Leisure on the Black Effect Podcast Network. I heart Radio, app, 1:32:22.080 --> 1:32:31.879 Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern, 1:32:32.160 --> 1:32:35.200 host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a 1:32:35.280 --> 1:32:39.360 lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, 1:32:39.439 --> 1:32:44.000 We controlled absolutely everything. He bribed judges and even helped 1:32:44.000 --> 1:32:47.040 a hit man walk free, until one day when he 1:32:47.080 --> 1:32:50.439 started talking with the FBI and promised that he could 1:32:50.439 --> 1:32:53.519 take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying 1:32:53.560 --> 1:32:55.640 to figure out why he flipped and what he was 1:32:55.680 --> 1:32:58.880 really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to 1:32:58.880 --> 1:33:01.640 be true. There's Scott be something wrong with this. I 1:33:01.640 --> 1:33:04.479 wouldn't trust that guy. He looks like a little scum, 1:33:04.520 --> 1:33:06.960 big liar, stool pidgeon. He looked like what he was 1:33:07.080 --> 1:33:09.920 or at. I can say with all certainty I think 1:33:09.960 --> 1:33:11.880 he's a hero because he didn't have to do what 1:33:11.920 --> 1:33:14.080 he did, and he did it anyway. The moment I 1:33:14.160 --> 1:33:17.200 put the wire around the first time, my life was over. 1:33:17.760 --> 1:33:19.800 If it ever got out, they would kill me. In 1:33:19.880 --> 1:33:22.920 the heartbeat, listen to deep Cover on the I Heart 1:33:23.000 --> 1:33:26.440 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:33:29.320 --> 1:33:32.080 After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls 1:33:32.080 --> 1:33:34.479 of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach pit. 1:33:34.760 --> 1:33:37.920 On the podcast nine O two one OMG joined Jenny 1:33:37.960 --> 1:33:40.479 Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit 1:33:40.560 --> 1:33:43.040 series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh. From the 1:33:43.120 --> 1:33:46.519 very beginning, we get to tell the fans all of 1:33:46.600 --> 1:33:49.519 the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, so they 1:33:49.600 --> 1:33:52.120 know what happened on camera obviously, but we can tell 1:33:52.160 --> 1:33:54.559 them all the good stuff that happened off camera. Get 1:33:54.600 --> 1:33:57.360 all the juicy details of every episode that you've been 1:33:57.360 --> 1:34:00.000 wondering about for decades. As nine O two one oh, 1:34:00.040 --> 1:34:03.240 super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny 1:34:03.280 --> 1:34:06.760 and Tory too reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from 1:34:06.840 --> 1:34:10.600 Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, 1:34:10.880 --> 1:34:14.760 you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the 1:34:14.920 --> 1:34:17.519 entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you 1:34:17.720 --> 1:34:21.040 remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we filmed 1:34:21.240 --> 1:34:24.400 that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on 1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:27.120 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 1:34:27.160 --> 1:34:36.479 get your podcasts. Welcome back to it could happen here, 1:34:36.520 --> 1:34:39.760 the show about things not being great and maybe trying 1:34:39.760 --> 1:34:43.120 to make them better. UM, I'm Robert Evans. Uh. This 1:34:43.160 --> 1:34:45.799 week we got we have a special, little, little little 1:34:45.800 --> 1:34:49.320 episode for you. UM, I'm gonna sit down and talk 1:34:49.439 --> 1:34:53.280 with Lucas Herndon. Um. Lucas, you are from New or 1:34:53.360 --> 1:34:56.200 you live in New Mexico at least, um, and you 1:34:56.240 --> 1:34:57.800 wanted to talk to me a bit about some stuff 1:34:57.800 --> 1:34:59.559 that's going on in your school boards. We just did 1:34:59.600 --> 1:35:02.720 a two harder on fascist attempts to kind of take 1:35:02.760 --> 1:35:05.280 over and dominate school boards around the country, and you've 1:35:05.320 --> 1:35:07.479 got some personal experience with that, so I wanted to 1:35:07.520 --> 1:35:09.719 kind of just turn this over to you to start 1:35:09.800 --> 1:35:13.320 us off. Yeah, thanks for Robert, thanks for having me 1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:15.760 on the show. UM. Yeah, my name is Lucas and 1:35:15.840 --> 1:35:18.240 I live in Las Cruces, New Mexico, which is in 1:35:18.280 --> 1:35:19.840 the southern part of the state. Were close to the 1:35:19.880 --> 1:35:23.400 border for people that are interested. UM, and yeah, like 1:35:23.800 --> 1:35:26.960 you know that my experience had happened last week is 1:35:26.960 --> 1:35:32.639 sort of the quintessential. It could happen here. Yeah exactly, 1:35:33.200 --> 1:35:37.240 lu LUs cruses. UM. Politically speaking, is actually a very 1:35:37.240 --> 1:35:41.080 progressive little time. I mean, in general New Mexico has 1:35:41.160 --> 1:35:45.320 been for what you know, however you consider the progressive 1:35:45.400 --> 1:35:47.400 or not. Is has been blue for quite a while. 1:35:47.600 --> 1:35:50.760 Is in terms of like voting like it's not it's 1:35:50.800 --> 1:35:54.720 not like Texas politically at least, right that's yeah exactly. Yeah, 1:35:54.720 --> 1:35:57.639 we voted for we voted for Bush the first time, 1:35:58.320 --> 1:36:01.080 but have voted blue every elect since two thousan four. 1:36:01.400 --> 1:36:05.400 Like federally, so in my little stretch of the of 1:36:05.439 --> 1:36:09.360 the state, our congressional district has been read. But the 1:36:09.400 --> 1:36:11.800 city of Los Cruces, which is the like where the 1:36:11.800 --> 1:36:13.559 biggest city in the southern part of the state, where 1:36:13.560 --> 1:36:16.479 the second biggest city in the state. UM, our city 1:36:16.479 --> 1:36:20.400 council has not only been democratic, but like progressively democratic. 1:36:20.840 --> 1:36:25.479 UM we have UM as of this recent election. You know, 1:36:25.560 --> 1:36:27.880 from the beginning of November, we now have an all 1:36:28.000 --> 1:36:32.880 female city council. UM. There is at least we have 1:36:33.280 --> 1:36:38.360 UM one one if not too trying to think. Sorry, 1:36:39.160 --> 1:36:42.040 Currently there are two UM folks on the city council 1:36:42.040 --> 1:36:44.880 have immigrated from Mexico in their life. UM, one will 1:36:44.920 --> 1:36:49.160 still be on. One is now running for Congress. Um 1:36:49.240 --> 1:36:52.960 we have UM. The school board that currently is sitting 1:36:53.160 --> 1:36:55.840 is generally progressive, and the one we just elected, we 1:36:55.960 --> 1:37:00.760 just elected our first openly queer person onto that school board. UM. 1:37:00.800 --> 1:37:03.559 Our little group of of legislators that go up to 1:37:03.600 --> 1:37:07.120 Santa Fe every year is very progressive. So again, just 1:37:07.160 --> 1:37:09.840 to kind of reiterate, like Las Cruises, New Mexico, pretty 1:37:09.840 --> 1:37:13.840 progressive little place. And yet at the school board meeting 1:37:13.920 --> 1:37:18.519 last week, UM totally dominated by a public attendance of 1:37:19.360 --> 1:37:24.040 very far right extremists, UM, spouting all kinds of nonsense 1:37:24.080 --> 1:37:26.400 about all kinds of things. So yeah, it was pretty 1:37:26.400 --> 1:37:28.640 well yeah, and this, I mean, this has happened. This 1:37:28.680 --> 1:37:31.600 happened in Portland, Oregon, too, which is also famously I 1:37:31.600 --> 1:37:35.600 don't know, I wouldn't call Portland politics progressive but solidly democratic. 1:37:36.120 --> 1:37:38.559 And the school board meeting gets taken over by by 1:37:38.600 --> 1:37:42.160 far right activists. This is a yeah, So when did 1:37:42.200 --> 1:37:46.120 you kind of first become aware of this? Well? So, 1:37:46.560 --> 1:37:49.360 um it was it was a weird convergence of my 1:37:49.439 --> 1:37:52.040 personal and my and my private or I'm sorry, my 1:37:52.040 --> 1:37:57.240 personal and my professional life where I UM, I work 1:37:57.320 --> 1:37:59.680 for an organization called progress Now in Mexico, so it's 1:37:59.720 --> 1:38:04.519 like do progressive politics for a living, but UM and 1:38:04.840 --> 1:38:06.840 a colleague who works for the a c LU here 1:38:06.880 --> 1:38:09.879 had asked if I would go and help lend support 1:38:10.360 --> 1:38:13.200 to this gender inclusion policy that the school board was 1:38:13.240 --> 1:38:16.479 going to be UM commenting on. They weren't voting on 1:38:16.479 --> 1:38:18.200 it that day. It was what's called the first reading, 1:38:18.800 --> 1:38:21.559 and she asked if I could go and if I could, 1:38:21.560 --> 1:38:23.360 you know, just speak, and I was like, yeah, absolutely, 1:38:23.640 --> 1:38:25.479 be happy too. So I was gonna go and and 1:38:25.520 --> 1:38:29.800 talk about this in a i'm sorry professional capacity. And 1:38:29.840 --> 1:38:34.120 then that day UM, as like before I went to that, 1:38:34.680 --> 1:38:37.679 my daughter, who's in middle school, texted me a picture 1:38:37.840 --> 1:38:42.320 a bunch of kids had on Monday of of last week, 1:38:42.360 --> 1:38:47.080 which was like trans Awareness Week or Transvisibility Week. Some 1:38:47.160 --> 1:38:50.280 kids had shown up wearing trans flags and pride flags 1:38:50.280 --> 1:38:54.120 on that Monday. The following day, that Tuesday, some kids 1:38:54.120 --> 1:38:57.680 showed up wearing UM thin blue line flags. In in 1:38:57.840 --> 1:39:02.640 response like indirect response, UM, and in my daughter and 1:39:02.760 --> 1:39:04.400 you know, my daughter is aware enough to know what 1:39:04.439 --> 1:39:06.640 that means. So she texted me and I was like, 1:39:06.680 --> 1:39:08.360 I can't believe this ship and I was like I know. 1:39:09.040 --> 1:39:11.080 Um so then I'm like right. So then I'm like, okay, well, 1:39:11.080 --> 1:39:13.120 now I want to go speak about this gender inclusion 1:39:13.120 --> 1:39:18.960 bill or policy personally right like now like has impacted me. Um. 1:39:19.000 --> 1:39:21.920 So I show up at you know, about an hour 1:39:22.040 --> 1:39:25.479 before the meeting is supposed to start. Because the third 1:39:25.520 --> 1:39:28.960 thing that kind of happened was that I, um, I am, 1:39:28.960 --> 1:39:31.160 I'm on like a bunch of mailing lists because of 1:39:31.200 --> 1:39:36.000 my job. And sure enough, the local gop um, who 1:39:36.080 --> 1:39:38.160 is not very active because again they kind of lose 1:39:38.160 --> 1:39:40.800 all the time, they sent out a like come show 1:39:40.880 --> 1:39:44.080 up at this thing, you know email. So I showed 1:39:44.160 --> 1:39:46.320 up early, thinking okay, well I want to see if 1:39:46.320 --> 1:39:49.000 there's going to be something. And at first I was like, oh, like, 1:39:49.040 --> 1:39:50.519 I don't think they showed up. I don't think that 1:39:50.600 --> 1:39:53.439 they turned out that's good. But it turns out they 1:39:53.439 --> 1:39:55.800 were all like hiding in their cars so that they 1:39:55.800 --> 1:39:59.599 could like swarm the building at once, and so then 1:39:59.680 --> 1:40:01.640 like a about half an hour before the meeting, they 1:40:01.680 --> 1:40:04.120 all walked in at once and like I was already 1:40:04.120 --> 1:40:06.439 sitting inside the room and they all came in at once, 1:40:06.439 --> 1:40:08.160 and they took over all the chairs. They was standing 1:40:08.240 --> 1:40:13.639 room only. Um to the point where like the there 1:40:13.720 --> 1:40:15.479 was a bunch of f A kids that were there 1:40:15.479 --> 1:40:17.880 that was supposed to be recognized for you know, f 1:40:17.880 --> 1:40:20.800 f A something or other, and like they had to 1:40:20.880 --> 1:40:23.200 kick some people out so that they weren't violating the 1:40:23.200 --> 1:40:27.880 fire code. Um that's how many. Yeah, So anyway, that's 1:40:27.920 --> 1:40:29.920 kind of how it all. That's the setting for where 1:40:30.000 --> 1:40:33.080 this all happened. Um. It turns out that at the 1:40:33.160 --> 1:40:36.720 same meeting there was gonna be a policy discussion on 1:40:36.800 --> 1:40:39.680 a different policy that had to do with New Mexico's 1:40:39.720 --> 1:40:44.240 revision of Social Studies standards. UM. And of course that 1:40:44.320 --> 1:40:47.400 got everybody hot and bothered about so called c RT, 1:40:48.160 --> 1:40:52.360 which isn't a thing. But so like they were there, 1:40:52.400 --> 1:40:54.360 but I mean, but the folks that showed up to speak, 1:40:54.400 --> 1:40:55.640 I mean, they were all over the place. They were 1:40:55.680 --> 1:40:58.080 talking about critical race theory, they were talking about the 1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:01.240 gender Inclusion Bill, and like trans violent the myth of 1:41:01.240 --> 1:41:04.360 trans violence and um. But then of course, like like 1:41:04.439 --> 1:41:07.200 COVID protocols and all kinds of I mean just again 1:41:07.240 --> 1:41:11.880 like way out their stuff. Um and actually kind of funny. 1:41:11.880 --> 1:41:14.400 I was listening to Knowledge Fight this morning and uh, 1:41:14.520 --> 1:41:17.680 Jordan Dan really hit on it that like they have 1:41:17.760 --> 1:41:19.640 just figured out that these are places they can go 1:41:19.720 --> 1:41:22.360 and yell and like no one, you know, like school 1:41:22.360 --> 1:41:25.320 board people aren't gonna like they're all just these are 1:41:25.320 --> 1:41:27.240 all just like teachers, like retired teachers who are on 1:41:27.280 --> 1:41:29.280 these school boards, and they're like they're not there to 1:41:29.320 --> 1:41:32.400 just you know, have these like whatever discussions, so they're 1:41:32.400 --> 1:41:34.120 not gonna you know, they just like let these people yell, 1:41:34.240 --> 1:41:37.439 and they did. So anyways, it got it got heated, 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:40.400 uh pretty quickly because I mean again, these people just 1:41:40.439 --> 1:41:43.400 like go off and they get they railed themselves up 1:41:43.400 --> 1:41:46.000 and those lots of applause and anyway, that's kind of 1:41:46.000 --> 1:41:48.599 how it all started, I guess, or that's what it was. 1:41:49.479 --> 1:41:52.120 And I mean, has has there have you noticed kind 1:41:52.160 --> 1:41:54.760 of any sort of mobilization in the community now that 1:41:54.800 --> 1:41:56.840 this has happened, because it seems like the first ones 1:41:56.880 --> 1:41:59.599 of these at least always take everybody by surprise. People 1:41:59.600 --> 1:42:01.400 are not you You're still not really used to school 1:42:01.400 --> 1:42:06.400 board meetings being um shall I say interesting? Um, certainly important, 1:42:06.439 --> 1:42:08.000 but like not a thing that you have to really 1:42:08.040 --> 1:42:11.040 be concerned about for the most part. And that's that's changing. 1:42:11.080 --> 1:42:14.040 Have you seen the community kind of start to adapt 1:42:14.040 --> 1:42:17.560 to that. Yeah, you know, since so you know, I 1:42:17.920 --> 1:42:20.799 put some content out on my you know, local Twitter, 1:42:21.640 --> 1:42:26.280 um and and and um got some traction there thanks 1:42:26.320 --> 1:42:28.720 to sort of your retweet, I think. But um, but 1:42:28.840 --> 1:42:33.439 then the biggest thing was that kind of going back 1:42:33.479 --> 1:42:36.720 to what had happened at my daughter's school, that progress 1:42:36.800 --> 1:42:39.600 that got worse, if you will. The following day, the 1:42:39.640 --> 1:42:42.080 Wednesday of last week, some kids showed up in an 1:42:42.120 --> 1:42:46.880 actual Confederate stars and bars flag, um, which is yeah, 1:42:46.960 --> 1:42:54.559 that's nuts. Famed Confederate state New Mexico. But you know Messia, 1:42:54.640 --> 1:42:57.240 New Mexico, which is right down the road was it 1:42:57.560 --> 1:43:02.000 was the capital of the Confederate territory. But yeah, but 1:43:02.080 --> 1:43:03.760 it wasn't a state at that point. It was not 1:43:03.800 --> 1:43:07.320 a state. And I'm not aware of were their battles 1:43:07.320 --> 1:43:09.320 in New Mexico. And I know we had some in 1:43:09.479 --> 1:43:12.000 like further south Texas than you would think, but I 1:43:12.040 --> 1:43:14.040 was not there of any. There's a couple there was 1:43:14.080 --> 1:43:16.840 one of famously up north called the Battle of Loureetta 1:43:17.080 --> 1:43:19.599 and then um and then there was one here where 1:43:19.640 --> 1:43:21.680 I live. Wasn't a battle, it was a bunch of 1:43:21.680 --> 1:43:25.880 Confederates got um stranded and super drunk. And then I 1:43:26.120 --> 1:43:29.000 couldn't cross the desert fast enough, so they got stranded 1:43:29.040 --> 1:43:30.960 up in the mountains at a place called Baylor Canyon. 1:43:31.320 --> 1:43:34.599 And then they get to the top and like the 1:43:34.640 --> 1:43:36.760 North was just sitting there like waiting for them and 1:43:36.840 --> 1:43:41.080 was like, well, you're captured. Now, we'll see. That's clearly 1:43:41.360 --> 1:43:47.639 that's some history worth celebrating right there. Yeah, I think 1:43:47.800 --> 1:43:50.360 that the biggest, like one of the scariest but biggest 1:43:50.400 --> 1:43:52.400 things is like and this goes towards that this is 1:43:52.400 --> 1:43:55.439 a slight tangent, but like the social studies revision, for instance, 1:43:55.439 --> 1:43:58.639 in the state of New Mexico. Uh, there are two 1:43:58.680 --> 1:44:02.320 paragraphs in our history but about the Gaston purchase. Um 1:44:03.200 --> 1:44:06.880 like I live in the chunk that is the guest 1:44:06.920 --> 1:44:12.040 and purchase and um like the guests and Purchase is 1:44:12.240 --> 1:44:15.760 like James Gaston was a notorious racist who left the 1:44:15.840 --> 1:44:18.920 South and took all of his railroad money went to 1:44:18.960 --> 1:44:22.960 California and Mexico, lobbying hard, using his influence and money 1:44:23.200 --> 1:44:25.559 to try to create a slave state in Baja in Mexico, 1:44:26.000 --> 1:44:28.519 Like that's what he was trying to do. And like 1:44:29.160 --> 1:44:31.720 that part of the that part of the context of 1:44:31.760 --> 1:44:35.200 why the guests and Purchase even happened is like totally 1:44:35.240 --> 1:44:37.280 left out of history books. And it's like, if anywhere 1:44:37.320 --> 1:44:39.240 should be taught, it should be taught in the place 1:44:39.280 --> 1:44:41.320 that is called the Guests and Purchase when it comes 1:44:41.320 --> 1:44:45.000 to the United States. So anyway, just a little tangent 1:44:45.040 --> 1:44:49.160 there why it's important to have context in history. Um 1:44:49.200 --> 1:44:51.519 so sorry going back to my daughter's school and these 1:44:51.560 --> 1:44:57.160 kids wearing the stupid stars and bars so um that. So, 1:44:57.320 --> 1:44:59.599 like I went and spoke to the assistant principle and 1:44:59.680 --> 1:45:03.519 was like, so I understand that your answer to this 1:45:03.640 --> 1:45:06.800 was to ban all flags and he was like and 1:45:06.840 --> 1:45:08.840 he was like yeah, yeah, yeah, because they're causing a 1:45:08.920 --> 1:45:12.320 disruption to education. And I was like, yeah, but I 1:45:12.360 --> 1:45:13.640 you know, I think I feel like you're giving a 1:45:13.680 --> 1:45:17.320 false equivalency to like, you know, gender and and pride 1:45:17.400 --> 1:45:23.080 acknowledgement to flag. Yeah. It's it's I mean, it's this constant. 1:45:23.160 --> 1:45:25.120 This has happened in a couple of places, including a 1:45:25.160 --> 1:45:27.840 town in Oregon where it's like this is sort of 1:45:27.840 --> 1:45:30.639 the the centrist and kind of the right wing solution 1:45:30.680 --> 1:45:32.880 to this is just that like, well, if if kids 1:45:32.880 --> 1:45:37.120 can't wear racist hate flags, then gay kids can't wear 1:45:37.120 --> 1:45:40.240 a flag that says that their existence is valid. Uh, 1:45:40.400 --> 1:45:43.479 you know, because those are the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, 1:45:43.520 --> 1:45:47.160 it's frustrating. It is frustrating. So that was not my 1:45:47.240 --> 1:45:51.760 favorite thing. Um. And so then the culmination of that 1:45:51.840 --> 1:45:55.360 this week was that my daughter's social studies teacher, who 1:45:55.960 --> 1:45:58.800 had allowed the kids in her class to make little 1:45:58.800 --> 1:46:03.120 paper flags after the real flags were banned, um, was 1:46:03.160 --> 1:46:08.280 fired Jesus Christ. And because it's a personnel matter, no 1:46:08.320 --> 1:46:10.799 one is willing to tell me more. I've I've called 1:46:11.240 --> 1:46:14.040 the president of the school school board, who actually, in 1:46:14.080 --> 1:46:16.559 all fairness, he doesn't actually probably have that much sway 1:46:16.600 --> 1:46:18.759 over these kinds of things. I would imagine that happened 1:46:18.760 --> 1:46:21.960 at a level a level that was not his. But yeah, yeah, 1:46:22.280 --> 1:46:24.120 but I mean, but I but I have anyway, So 1:46:24.160 --> 1:46:26.320 I did call him. I also called the school and 1:46:26.439 --> 1:46:30.040 got very little information from them obviously, so you know 1:46:30.439 --> 1:46:33.960 who knows. But again, like that's how it was perceived 1:46:34.000 --> 1:46:38.599 from the kids in her class. Um, And that's so 1:46:38.720 --> 1:46:40.680 like what we know happened, is that we know that 1:46:41.240 --> 1:46:44.000 after the flags got banned, she let kids make flags 1:46:44.400 --> 1:46:46.799 out of paper and hang them up, and by Friday 1:46:46.840 --> 1:46:51.040 she was gone. So like not a great response, no, 1:46:51.160 --> 1:46:55.640 not not not ideal. Yeah yeah, so anyway, that's kind 1:46:55.640 --> 1:46:57.479 of where we left at. But I guess maybe what 1:46:57.680 --> 1:46:59.160 maybe what I should say to get back to your 1:46:59.200 --> 1:47:01.160 original question, which is to say, like, have we seen 1:47:01.200 --> 1:47:05.360 a mobilization that Yeah? Like so I learned the newspaper 1:47:05.439 --> 1:47:10.479 the reporter who that teacher like a couple of weeks ago, 1:47:10.920 --> 1:47:13.639 had actually been in the newspaper because she had also 1:47:13.800 --> 1:47:19.000 like um, she she spearheaded this like response like a 1:47:19.200 --> 1:47:22.040 support like a girl who wore her job to school 1:47:22.240 --> 1:47:25.439 had been bullied, and like when news got around in 1:47:25.479 --> 1:47:28.759 the school, like the like the majority of the student 1:47:28.800 --> 1:47:32.679 body and this teacher like went up and above out 1:47:32.680 --> 1:47:35.559 of their way to make her feel welcome and like 1:47:35.560 --> 1:47:37.639 walk her to her class, and like it got kind 1:47:37.640 --> 1:47:40.880 of viral on local TikTok. So like this teacher got 1:47:40.960 --> 1:47:43.360 quoted in the newspaper. So I like called them, I 1:47:43.360 --> 1:47:45.680 called the report. I tweeted the newspaper and I was like, like, 1:47:45.760 --> 1:47:48.000 you guys know that the teacher who was in like 1:47:48.200 --> 1:47:52.600 startlet in your article is fired for allowing kids to 1:47:52.640 --> 1:47:54.920 vote their thoughts on about these flags things right, And 1:47:54.920 --> 1:47:56.360 they were like, no, we didn't know, and I was like, 1:47:56.720 --> 1:47:59.840 you should probably find so, So, you know, I don't 1:47:59.840 --> 1:48:02.040 know where we're gonna be at now. The next reading 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:08.240 for the gender Inclusion policy is UM December, so we've 1:48:08.240 --> 1:48:11.200 got a couple of weeks before that next school board meeting. UM. 1:48:11.479 --> 1:48:14.120 I think that on my end, like there's gonna be 1:48:14.200 --> 1:48:17.920 some local organizing to try to get some better, more 1:48:17.920 --> 1:48:21.360 inclusive voices to be a part of things. UM. I 1:48:21.479 --> 1:48:25.360 don't you know, I don't know what the interim will hold, um, 1:48:25.920 --> 1:48:27.639 because it's like, you know, it's the holidays and there's 1:48:27.640 --> 1:48:31.519 a lot going on and Kyle Rittenhouse and both Black Better. 1:48:31.720 --> 1:48:33.200 I mean, there's like, you know, there's always a million 1:48:33.240 --> 1:48:35.760 things happening, so it'll you know, there will have to 1:48:35.800 --> 1:48:38.000 be some drum beating to like get people to show 1:48:38.080 --> 1:48:40.240 up to that. But on the other hand, I think 1:48:40.560 --> 1:48:44.240 with some of the momentum we have and I think 1:48:44.240 --> 1:48:47.679 people will show up in Mass for the fourteenth UM 1:48:47.720 --> 1:48:50.160 in support at least this is the kind of community 1:48:50.200 --> 1:48:53.200 that in general we have shown up and shown out 1:48:53.240 --> 1:48:55.679 to support you know, these kinds of issues in the past. 1:48:55.760 --> 1:48:58.519 But I do think that up until now people felt 1:48:58.560 --> 1:49:02.240 for pretty asleep about it. Yeah, I mean, and hopefully 1:49:02.680 --> 1:49:05.800 you do see the kind of response you're expecting. Can 1:49:05.840 --> 1:49:09.320 you walk me through sort of how the kind of attempts, 1:49:09.360 --> 1:49:12.320 like you talked about getting the local media aware of 1:49:12.320 --> 1:49:15.240 what had happened to that teacher, Um, how are people like, 1:49:15.320 --> 1:49:18.080 what does the actual organizing effort look like on the ground, Like, 1:49:18.120 --> 1:49:20.000 how are you trying? How are you and others trying 1:49:20.040 --> 1:49:22.040 to get the word out so that you know there's 1:49:22.040 --> 1:49:26.240 a response to this. Yeah, so I think that, Um, 1:49:28.680 --> 1:49:31.559 the first thing is is that there was there was 1:49:31.600 --> 1:49:37.160 a problem with the way that the school board handled 1:49:37.160 --> 1:49:42.080 public comment that first time. In an attempt to help 1:49:42.160 --> 1:49:45.640 limit their own sort of exposure to some of the 1:49:45.680 --> 1:49:48.479 toxic stuff they knew was coming their way, they had 1:49:49.040 --> 1:49:55.200 they had instituted a limit on public comment. Um, you 1:49:55.240 --> 1:49:57.240 had to show up by a certain time and fill 1:49:57.240 --> 1:49:58.960 out these little pieces of paper saying that you were 1:49:59.000 --> 1:50:01.200 there to comment about some thing, and if you weren't there, 1:50:01.240 --> 1:50:03.519 then you couldn't sign up. And the problem was was 1:50:03.560 --> 1:50:09.520 that all these like old white male retirees who are 1:50:09.520 --> 1:50:12.160 sitting around listening to Alex Jones all day. They had 1:50:12.200 --> 1:50:14.559 nothing better to do than show up to this meeting 1:50:14.560 --> 1:50:17.080 at three o'clock in the afternoon, whereas a bunch of 1:50:17.160 --> 1:50:21.280 for instance, teachers, students, parents, um, they were busy because 1:50:21.280 --> 1:50:23.320 they were in school or like picking their kids up 1:50:23.320 --> 1:50:26.320 from school. UM. So I think one of the things 1:50:26.360 --> 1:50:28.920 that we're going to try to do is get public 1:50:28.960 --> 1:50:32.120 comment ahead of time, and we're gonna try to like 1:50:32.200 --> 1:50:35.120 bombard the not bombard that's that's a violent word. But 1:50:35.160 --> 1:50:38.080 we're gonna try to like just make sure that UM 1:50:38.200 --> 1:50:41.800 voices from the community that hadn't been represented are represented 1:50:41.800 --> 1:50:44.639 and sent to the school board ahead of time. UM. 1:50:44.680 --> 1:50:46.879 I think we're gonna try to go and save physical 1:50:46.920 --> 1:50:49.639 space ahead of time for those of us that can write. 1:50:49.680 --> 1:50:51.080 For those of us that can will go and we'll 1:50:51.080 --> 1:50:53.920 try to save physical space. And we did learn that 1:50:53.960 --> 1:50:56.880 even if they keep that policy for the little forms 1:50:57.280 --> 1:51:00.479 we can UM, we can actually give that. I'm we 1:51:00.520 --> 1:51:02.479 can fill out other people's names, right, So we're gonna 1:51:02.520 --> 1:51:05.040 try to like make sure that we have better voices. 1:51:05.360 --> 1:51:06.760 That was one of the things. If you listen to 1:51:06.760 --> 1:51:09.720 the recording of what I said at that meeting. UM. 1:51:09.840 --> 1:51:12.400 I asked the school board president if it's possible for 1:51:12.439 --> 1:51:15.040 me to yield my time because it had literally been 1:51:15.120 --> 1:51:19.439 like a dozen white men out there spouting nonsense. And 1:51:19.479 --> 1:51:22.080 then I get up there and I'm like, yeah, hey, UM, 1:51:22.120 --> 1:51:24.680 we've heard from enough white men. Can we have like 1:51:24.840 --> 1:51:26.880 a member of the trans community or one of the 1:51:26.920 --> 1:51:29.639 women of color who are here to talk about this, um, 1:51:29.680 --> 1:51:32.599 but couldn't get here in time? And they're legal team 1:51:32.640 --> 1:51:34.240 was like, oh no, like you didn't sign up in 1:51:34.280 --> 1:51:36.680 time or whatever. So UM, but it turns out we 1:51:36.680 --> 1:51:38.880 could have put their names down ahead of time. So 1:51:38.920 --> 1:51:41.479 we're gonna try to organize that thing so that people 1:51:41.479 --> 1:51:44.400 can show up and save you know, physical space. UM. 1:51:44.439 --> 1:51:47.640 And then UM, I think the other thing too is 1:51:47.720 --> 1:51:50.599 to try to involve some other local elected officials from 1:51:50.640 --> 1:51:53.160 the county and city level, because again, we have these 1:51:53.160 --> 1:51:56.559 really amazing progressive candidates who have come from all walks 1:51:56.600 --> 1:51:59.960 of life, including immigrants and members of you know, lgb 1:52:00.040 --> 1:52:04.040 t q A community. UM. So having them come and 1:52:04.080 --> 1:52:08.080 speak in their official capacity UM, I think will carry 1:52:08.120 --> 1:52:11.120 a lot of weight um for the both for the 1:52:11.160 --> 1:52:13.280 school board but also just for the public to hear 1:52:13.360 --> 1:52:17.720 from those voices. Yeah, where are these like have you 1:52:17.760 --> 1:52:19.800 have you gotten any kind of research on where the 1:52:19.840 --> 1:52:21.920 people showing up are coming from? Are these like folks 1:52:22.000 --> 1:52:24.760 within your community or these people coming from kind of 1:52:24.760 --> 1:52:28.400 outlying areas um to swarm these meetings? Like is there 1:52:28.479 --> 1:52:32.360 is there kind of an active research contingent. I mean, 1:52:32.360 --> 1:52:34.599 that's part of what I do. It's part of part 1:52:34.600 --> 1:52:37.160 of my job with Progress now in Mexico. My my 1:52:37.200 --> 1:52:40.040 title is Energy Policy Director. I usually spend most of 1:52:40.040 --> 1:52:43.040 my day talking about oil and gas stuff. However, I've 1:52:43.040 --> 1:52:46.120 been doing this job long enough that before I became 1:52:46.360 --> 1:52:50.320 that person, I was actively researching and tracking a lot 1:52:50.360 --> 1:52:52.920 of white supremacy activity in the in the state, especially 1:52:52.960 --> 1:52:56.040 along the border, some of the border militia stuff a 1:52:56.080 --> 1:53:00.240 couple of years back. So in that regard, I knew 1:53:00.240 --> 1:53:02.320 and I knew a number of these folks. A lot 1:53:02.360 --> 1:53:05.720 of them do live in the city. But so our 1:53:05.800 --> 1:53:08.439 our county is considered rural by the census, even though 1:53:08.560 --> 1:53:10.920 we're a city of a hundred thousand people. But we're 1:53:10.920 --> 1:53:15.040 a big county. So there's there's two people here, so um, 1:53:15.120 --> 1:53:16.760 so there's you know, it's it's hard to tell how 1:53:16.760 --> 1:53:19.280 many people may or may not have lived in, for instance, 1:53:19.280 --> 1:53:22.120 the public school district. But what I can tell you, 1:53:22.200 --> 1:53:24.640 like hands down, is that of those dozen folks that 1:53:24.720 --> 1:53:28.559 spoke before I did, like, there's no way that at 1:53:28.680 --> 1:53:30.920 least I mean, maybe one or two of them had 1:53:31.000 --> 1:53:33.639 kids that could have gone through the Las Cruces public 1:53:33.640 --> 1:53:37.280 school system, but like the majority of them far and away, 1:53:37.360 --> 1:53:40.439 like either aren't from here at all, or you know, 1:53:40.479 --> 1:53:42.960 they've lived here for a long time, but they are 1:53:43.000 --> 1:53:45.559 They are not active parents or even grandparents of kids 1:53:45.600 --> 1:53:47.519 that live and we'll go to school in this in 1:53:47.560 --> 1:53:51.879 this district. They're just they're just agitated right wingers. Yeah, 1:53:51.920 --> 1:53:54.160 And it's how does this all tie in? Because New 1:53:54.160 --> 1:53:56.360 Mexico has had I think it's kind of been on 1:53:56.400 --> 1:53:58.640 the back burner in terms of like national attention. But 1:53:58.720 --> 1:54:01.479 y'all have had some really significant dust stops, not just 1:54:01.520 --> 1:54:03.600 with you know, the border militias. For years there have 1:54:03.640 --> 1:54:07.280 been violent um acts and even murders as the result 1:54:07.320 --> 1:54:10.799 of that stuff going on. But like during last year's 1:54:11.040 --> 1:54:14.719 the protest over George Floyd's murder, y'all had some really ugly, 1:54:15.439 --> 1:54:18.479 who's shall we say, dueling rallies were like right wingers 1:54:18.880 --> 1:54:23.440 shot at people, um and and some really some nasty situations. 1:54:23.479 --> 1:54:26.280 I'm wondering, are like those folks, like, are you seeing 1:54:26.280 --> 1:54:30.000 that kind of organization being brought into the school board meeting? 1:54:30.080 --> 1:54:32.680 Or is this just kind of bubbling up as part 1:54:32.760 --> 1:54:37.800 of the same stew it is. Yeah, there, it's loosely 1:54:37.800 --> 1:54:42.520 affiliated for sure. Um And And the crossover, the crossover 1:54:42.680 --> 1:54:46.080 is hard to tell. Depend I mean, what am I 1:54:46.120 --> 1:54:49.200 trying to say? There's there is crossover. It's hard to 1:54:49.200 --> 1:54:52.960 tell how on purpose it is or sort of the 1:54:53.000 --> 1:54:56.560 fact that this is like a small population community states, right. 1:54:56.960 --> 1:54:59.640 So what I what I mean by that is that 1:55:00.440 --> 1:55:04.440 some of the some of the physical white supremacists who 1:55:04.480 --> 1:55:09.120 showed up last year at one of our um BLM 1:55:09.240 --> 1:55:14.720 support you know George Floyd related peaceful protests, who they 1:55:14.720 --> 1:55:17.720 showed up at a parking lot across the street, you know, armed, 1:55:17.960 --> 1:55:22.080 long guns, tech vests, all that kind of stuff. Who 1:55:22.240 --> 1:55:24.680 that those were the folks that when I when I 1:55:24.720 --> 1:55:28.280 went and filmed them and put them on blast to 1:55:28.280 --> 1:55:30.800 to try and sort of out them as best we 1:55:30.840 --> 1:55:34.680 possibly could, or at least identify them. Um, they came 1:55:34.720 --> 1:55:38.880 back and docked me as and then went after a 1:55:38.960 --> 1:55:41.960 number of my colleagues up north in Albuquerque. That was 1:55:42.040 --> 1:55:44.720 about a week before there was the there was a 1:55:44.720 --> 1:55:48.600 shooting of a of a UM anti fascist protester in Albuquerque, 1:55:49.440 --> 1:55:51.840 and and it was during sort of all of that 1:55:51.880 --> 1:55:54.960 stuff that I was like trying to talk about all 1:55:54.960 --> 1:55:58.800 this out loud, um and got tied into a few 1:55:58.800 --> 1:56:01.200 more other anti FASCI voices in the state. So since 1:56:01.240 --> 1:56:03.880 then we've all been kind of working together. Um. We 1:56:03.960 --> 1:56:07.600 found each other on Twitter, thankfully. And so so what 1:56:07.680 --> 1:56:09.800 it seems like is is that like the folks that 1:56:09.800 --> 1:56:13.680 showed up to the UH school board meeting were what 1:56:13.800 --> 1:56:18.400 I'll call usual suspects, like politically active old you know, 1:56:18.840 --> 1:56:23.520 right wingers. That being said, Um, in that room, there 1:56:23.520 --> 1:56:27.839 were a number of people that I've identified as showing 1:56:28.000 --> 1:56:32.080 up to anti vax rallies, a number of the Trump 1:56:32.160 --> 1:56:35.560 train rallies that happened last year before the election, and 1:56:35.640 --> 1:56:41.120 at least one person who I recognized as being I 1:56:41.160 --> 1:56:44.960 have never seen carry firearm, but like has been at 1:56:45.400 --> 1:56:48.440 rallies where people were carrying firearms and that kind of thing. 1:56:48.680 --> 1:56:51.000 Um in response to these you know, in response to 1:56:51.040 --> 1:56:55.680 like peaceful protests. So there is crossover for sure. Where 1:56:55.680 --> 1:56:58.000 do you see this going, Like, because you've been kind 1:56:58.000 --> 1:57:01.200 of paying attention to this for a while, not just 1:57:01.320 --> 1:57:03.200 the school board stuff, but just kind of the general 1:57:03.240 --> 1:57:06.880 problem of right wing UM organizing in your area, Like 1:57:06.920 --> 1:57:08.760 where do you where do you see this heading within 1:57:08.840 --> 1:57:12.280 kind of the context of New Mexico. Well, I mean, 1:57:12.440 --> 1:57:16.680 so we haven't really talked about this, but like, so, well, 1:57:16.720 --> 1:57:19.400 while here in Los Cruces, we did really well, um 1:57:19.480 --> 1:57:22.600 during the November election in terms of our school board 1:57:22.600 --> 1:57:26.320 to be re elected a really good progressive school board 1:57:26.320 --> 1:57:30.240 president and two new good progressive candidates, including, like I said, 1:57:30.320 --> 1:57:33.680 the first you know, queer openly queer person. So that's amazing. However, 1:57:33.960 --> 1:57:38.000 up in Albuquerque, Uh, they lost seats to some of 1:57:38.040 --> 1:57:42.360 these far right wing UM candidates and UM, so the 1:57:42.400 --> 1:57:48.520 Albuquerque school board is UM not UM not looking as 1:57:48.600 --> 1:57:52.360 good politically. So, I mean, so on the like, I 1:57:52.400 --> 1:57:54.280 guess what I'd say is on the soft end, what 1:57:54.360 --> 1:57:58.400 I expect is more continued pressure in sort of the 1:57:59.360 --> 1:58:03.280 UM the way these things are supposed to happen, which 1:58:03.320 --> 1:58:06.160 is to say, like continued presence of the right wing 1:58:06.200 --> 1:58:10.360 folks at meetings, yelling, taking up space, UM slowing things 1:58:10.400 --> 1:58:13.400 down running for office when the time comes, you know, 1:58:13.480 --> 1:58:16.000 those kinds of things I see. Um, I guess I 1:58:16.000 --> 1:58:20.320 wouldn't be surprised though, if um, if I if there 1:58:20.320 --> 1:58:24.320 were further escalation of things, UM in a you know, 1:58:25.400 --> 1:58:27.560 in the way we've seen other places, in terms of 1:58:27.880 --> 1:58:30.520 some sort of you know, an armed response or somebody 1:58:30.600 --> 1:58:33.760 showing up. Um. You know, in New Mexico's an open 1:58:33.760 --> 1:58:35.840 carry state, and so people can walk around with guns 1:58:35.880 --> 1:58:39.840 all the time. Um. And and you know, I mean 1:58:39.840 --> 1:58:41.280 that's the other thing too, is like, while I didn't 1:58:41.280 --> 1:58:43.520 see anybody with an open carried firearm at the school 1:58:43.560 --> 1:58:46.200 board meeting, there were guys wearing like, you know, Vortex 1:58:46.240 --> 1:58:49.720 Optics brand hats, thin blue line shirts, a guy with 1:58:49.760 --> 1:58:52.160 that like a Remingtons shirt, you know. And and like 1:58:52.160 --> 1:58:54.200 I don't regret anybody from gun culture. I'm you know, 1:58:54.200 --> 1:58:56.160 I'm a lefty with a gun. So it's like I 1:58:56.560 --> 1:58:59.720 get gun culture. But like when you show up in 1:58:59.760 --> 1:59:02.360 those things and then those spaces with that kind of 1:59:02.800 --> 1:59:06.280 yeah you're making a point yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're 1:59:06.320 --> 1:59:11.760 you're you're not Yeah, I get that. Um, have you 1:59:12.120 --> 1:59:14.360 is there some kind of have you seen like any 1:59:14.440 --> 1:59:17.760 kind of butting left wing armed response, like, is there 1:59:17.840 --> 1:59:19.920 do you guys have like an organized group of folks 1:59:19.920 --> 1:59:22.240 who have been showing up? Um when there are armed 1:59:22.280 --> 1:59:26.520 protests in the area. UM, I mean, I always have 1:59:26.720 --> 1:59:30.560 my gear with me. Um, I've got I've got a 1:59:30.560 --> 1:59:33.320 ceramic plate, I've got my you know, rifle and pistol. 1:59:33.360 --> 1:59:36.400 I I am a member of a number of different groups. 1:59:36.440 --> 1:59:39.480 I've been a member of the s R A, UM, 1:59:39.520 --> 1:59:42.120 I've I've worked with some of the armed groups up 1:59:42.120 --> 1:59:44.240 in Albuquerque. So down here there hasn't been a ton 1:59:44.360 --> 1:59:47.080 But um, I've got a I've got what I'll call 1:59:47.120 --> 1:59:49.360 a luciffiliation with a number of folks that I would 1:59:49.360 --> 1:59:53.520 trust to be armed if need be. Thankfully that hasn't 1:59:53.520 --> 1:59:57.080 happened yet. Thankfully, the one big, big protests that happened 1:59:57.080 --> 1:59:59.640 here in Las Cruces that I was sort of nervous 1:59:59.720 --> 2:00:02.440 about out and I did have my gear for remained 2:00:02.480 --> 2:00:05.200 peaceful and and we you know, we took over some 2:00:05.240 --> 2:00:08.240 streets and blocks traffic for a couple hours, and there 2:00:08.280 --> 2:00:11.240 was never any violent response from anybody other than maybe 2:00:11.240 --> 2:00:13.560 like one car at one point trying to push through 2:00:13.600 --> 2:00:16.080 and car got banged on. And that was about it, 2:00:16.120 --> 2:00:20.880 but um so so, so to answer your question, like, yes, 2:00:20.920 --> 2:00:23.440 there are those of us that are left wing and armed, 2:00:23.640 --> 2:00:27.320 and there are those of us that have been able 2:00:27.360 --> 2:00:29.760 to show out if we needed to. Thankfully we haven't 2:00:29.760 --> 2:00:33.280 had too at this point. Yeah. Well all right, I 2:00:33.280 --> 2:00:35.120 think that's everything I had to ask. Is there anything 2:00:35.120 --> 2:00:37.080 else you wanted to to get to to make sure 2:00:37.080 --> 2:00:40.000 to talk about today? Well, I just I mean, I 2:00:40.280 --> 2:00:43.040 would be I would be um not doing the best 2:00:43.080 --> 2:00:45.520 of my job if I didn't mention the fact that, 2:00:45.600 --> 2:00:48.400 like one of the so one of the talking points 2:00:48.440 --> 2:00:51.080 of the right wing here and our school board is 2:00:51.120 --> 2:00:56.360 that New Mexico's education system is is fifty feet in 2:00:56.400 --> 2:00:59.360 the country. And I the the my assumption is that 2:00:59.360 --> 2:01:03.720 that has to do with DC's public schools being um 2:01:03.840 --> 2:01:06.680 so it's not a great Yeah, that's not a great record. 2:01:07.040 --> 2:01:09.960 It's not a it's not a great record. And um 2:01:10.000 --> 2:01:12.240 and and I and I you know, as a parent 2:01:12.360 --> 2:01:15.320 of a kid who's in the public schools, I uh, 2:01:15.360 --> 2:01:17.760 you know, I cannot ignore that. Right. That's so that's 2:01:17.760 --> 2:01:20.440 a legitimate talking point. But the but the thing that 2:01:20.520 --> 2:01:22.360 they want to bring it about is that you know 2:01:22.400 --> 2:01:26.640 there you know, it's because we're trying to be gender inclusive. 2:01:26.720 --> 2:01:30.680 It's because we're trying to like you know, teach kids 2:01:30.680 --> 2:01:34.560 about like actual history that happened whatever, UM. And the 2:01:34.600 --> 2:01:38.920 reality is it's because our education system is, unlike most places, 2:01:39.680 --> 2:01:44.160 funded by the oil and guests industry and not by 2:01:44.200 --> 2:01:48.880 like our communities. UM. And so like, you know, eighteen 2:01:48.920 --> 2:01:53.280 months ago, oil prices crashed, right and the State of 2:01:53.320 --> 2:01:56.120 New Mexico had to have an emergency special session for 2:01:56.120 --> 2:01:57.920 a legislature to figure out how we were gonna like 2:01:58.400 --> 2:02:03.120 fund things like cops and schools and like whatever. UM. 2:02:03.160 --> 2:02:05.760 And then like now you know, oil and gas is 2:02:05.800 --> 2:02:08.560 like gangbusters and where you know, record prices and like 2:02:08.880 --> 2:02:11.280 the State of Mexico has this like surplus budget. But 2:02:11.360 --> 2:02:14.440 the thing is is that like that that extra money 2:02:14.520 --> 2:02:16.440 that we're gonna get this time doesn't make up for 2:02:16.480 --> 2:02:19.680 the like cyclical bad you know way that we fund 2:02:19.720 --> 2:02:22.440 our schools. So I just want to like tie in that, 2:02:22.600 --> 2:02:26.680 like like all of these things tie in together, right, 2:02:26.680 --> 2:02:29.480 Like we can't talk about education into Mexico without talking 2:02:29.480 --> 2:02:33.320 about the oil and gas funding and so anyway, so 2:02:33.400 --> 2:02:36.000 like because that's my you know, that's part of the 2:02:36.040 --> 2:02:38.200 reason why I was going to go talk about this 2:02:38.280 --> 2:02:41.920 stuff at the on my professional level is that like 2:02:42.200 --> 2:02:45.120 I get to talk about education as an as an 2:02:45.200 --> 2:02:48.960 energy expert in the state of New Mexico because energy 2:02:49.040 --> 2:02:53.680 and education or so intertwined here UM and Like when 2:02:53.760 --> 2:02:57.960 you have literal like Cooke Brothers founded UM and and 2:02:58.480 --> 2:03:01.720 UM like monetarily supplied think tanks in the state of 2:03:01.720 --> 2:03:05.800 New Mexico who are pushing out this kind of propaganda 2:03:05.800 --> 2:03:09.000 and encouraging people so that there's a group called the 2:03:09.080 --> 2:03:12.760 Rio Grand Foundation and like another one called Power of 2:03:12.840 --> 2:03:16.680 the Future uh PT Power the Future in New Mexico. 2:03:16.880 --> 2:03:20.680 Like both of those organizations are like tied to the 2:03:20.720 --> 2:03:23.200 Cooke Brothers because the Kope Brothers are tied to oil, 2:03:23.720 --> 2:03:27.840 and they're pushing these right wing talking points UM and 2:03:27.880 --> 2:03:29.920 it's all part and parcel of just like you know, 2:03:30.080 --> 2:03:33.400 clouding the information space. That's what they want to do. 2:03:33.440 --> 2:03:35.160 They want to have they want to have the new 2:03:35.200 --> 2:03:38.200 cycle dominated with things like CRT and gender inclusion studies 2:03:38.560 --> 2:03:42.560 to you know, to tie up things like school boards 2:03:42.600 --> 2:03:45.680 so that so that the electorate is busy talking about 2:03:45.680 --> 2:03:48.280 these things while meanwhile they're just raking in money hand 2:03:48.280 --> 2:03:54.160 over fist um you know, stealing our oil. So anyway, 2:03:54.280 --> 2:03:56.800 I just that's so important to me to like make 2:03:56.840 --> 2:04:00.840 those connections, um, especially in a state, and it's something 2:04:00.880 --> 2:04:03.600 that a lot of people don't consider and don't think about, 2:04:03.760 --> 2:04:06.080 and it's just really important to me that people understand that. 2:04:06.200 --> 2:04:10.480 So yeah, UM, all right, Well, thank you so much, Lucas. 2:04:10.480 --> 2:04:13.960 This has been I'm not gonna say fun, but certainly 2:04:14.120 --> 2:04:17.000 enlightening and I think valuable A good a good dispatch 2:04:17.120 --> 2:04:20.600 from you know, a fight that we we continue to 2:04:20.600 --> 2:04:23.240 see is important here and that everybody should be paying 2:04:23.280 --> 2:04:26.839 attention to both wherever it happens, including in Los Cruces 2:04:27.000 --> 2:04:31.000 and around the country. UM, because they ain't given up, um, 2:04:31.360 --> 2:04:35.880 and they can't be ignored. Um. Yeah. And that's You've 2:04:35.920 --> 2:04:38.720 mentioned this many times over the years, but like that's 2:04:38.760 --> 2:04:42.280 the kind of thing is that we have to show up. Um. Yeah. 2:04:42.320 --> 2:04:45.280 We can't just let them have these spaces. UM. And 2:04:45.320 --> 2:04:47.840 I think that this this past school board meeting was 2:04:47.880 --> 2:04:51.640 a great example of why. UM. And and I'm I'm 2:04:51.680 --> 2:04:54.080 really counting on a lot of my my my friends 2:04:54.120 --> 2:04:56.840 and close you know, the folks that I have come 2:04:56.880 --> 2:05:00.000 to love and support in this community, UM, to show 2:05:00.080 --> 2:05:02.320 up and show out for that because that's you know, 2:05:02.360 --> 2:05:04.000 we've been there, right we like I said, you know, 2:05:04.040 --> 2:05:06.440 and if you look up lost Cruses politics over the 2:05:06.520 --> 2:05:08.560 years on the news cycle, like you'll see stories about 2:05:08.560 --> 2:05:12.080 our you know, progressive City Council and passing a living 2:05:12.080 --> 2:05:14.800 wage and you know, being classic bags. I mean like 2:05:14.840 --> 2:05:16.600 all these like you know, we've we've tried, we've we've 2:05:16.640 --> 2:05:20.280 tried to be that kind of little community and and 2:05:20.280 --> 2:05:22.640 and yet you know, these folks are still there and 2:05:22.680 --> 2:05:25.000 they're still allowed and if we give them the space, 2:05:25.080 --> 2:05:28.880 they will take those spaces over. So yeah, yeah, absolutely, 2:05:29.200 --> 2:05:31.480 So thanks for having me on. Let me talk about this. Yeah, 2:05:31.760 --> 2:05:34.040 it really means a lot, thank you for stepping up, 2:05:34.040 --> 2:05:36.120 because it is this is the thing that's a giant 2:05:36.120 --> 2:05:39.600 pain in the butt, um, is that everybody's got a 2:05:39.600 --> 2:05:42.160 lot going on. Life is complicated. There's all sorts of 2:05:42.160 --> 2:05:44.800 shipped to do in the old world. Um. But every 2:05:44.800 --> 2:05:49.880 time these fascists and their their affiliates decide they're going 2:05:49.920 --> 2:05:52.640 to try to take over something, you know, as busy 2:05:52.680 --> 2:05:54.800 as people are, as exhausting as it is, you do 2:05:54.880 --> 2:05:56.800 have to like they can't just be able to have 2:05:56.880 --> 2:05:59.000 to do it. Like that's how they win, is they have. 2:05:59.200 --> 2:06:02.040 They have unlimited it energy for this ship and um 2:06:02.160 --> 2:06:04.440 if they're not like the thing that causes them to 2:06:04.520 --> 2:06:10.320 lose energy is actually um being outnumbered and shown to 2:06:10.440 --> 2:06:15.360 be like like like being kind of pushed out by communities. Um, 2:06:15.520 --> 2:06:18.200 you can do it. It takes it, but it requires 2:06:18.200 --> 2:06:22.920 people showing up. Yes, that's exactly right. So UM, I 2:06:22.920 --> 2:06:26.480 appreciate the signal boost means a lot to me. Uh 2:06:26.520 --> 2:06:30.000 and this, are there any local organs that people can support, 2:06:30.680 --> 2:06:33.080 so big shout out to a group called Cafe here 2:06:33.080 --> 2:06:36.120 in Las Cruces that works on all kinds of border 2:06:36.120 --> 2:06:41.080 issues immigrant rights but also like workers rights and um, immigrants, 2:06:41.400 --> 2:06:45.000 like student rights, migrant student rights. Um. They've been very 2:06:45.000 --> 2:06:48.720 active in this for a long time. UM. And so yeah, 2:06:48.720 --> 2:06:52.440 I definitely shout out Cafe uh here in here and 2:06:52.600 --> 2:06:54.400 I mean all of New Mexico, but specifically it set 2:06:54.400 --> 2:06:55.680 in New Mexico. They're doing a lot of work. And 2:06:55.720 --> 2:06:59.480 then um uh Dreams and Action, which is part of 2:06:59.480 --> 2:07:02.920 a NASH Network for dreamers. But um again here in 2:07:02.920 --> 2:07:06.120 New Mexico, I've done a lot of good work. Okay, yeah, 2:07:06.160 --> 2:07:08.840 thank you very much, Lucas. All right, UM, and that 2:07:09.040 --> 2:07:11.120 is going to do it. For us here, it could 2:07:11.120 --> 2:07:16.560 happen here. Um. Until next time, go uh, I don't know, 2:07:18.560 --> 2:07:21.920 hang out at a school board meeting. Go take up 2:07:21.960 --> 2:07:24.680 space from fascists. Yeah, go take up space from fascists 2:07:24.680 --> 2:07:36.640 in general. The Black Effect Presents features honest conversations and 2:07:36.680 --> 2:07:40.720 exclusive interviews, a space for artists, everyday people and listeners 2:07:40.960 --> 2:07:45.640 to amplify, elevate, and empower black voices with great conversations. 2:07:46.360 --> 2:07:48.840 Make sure to listen to The Black Effect Presents Podcast 2:07:49.080 --> 2:07:52.280 on I Heart Radio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 2:07:52.320 --> 2:07:58.280 your podcast. Adoption of teens from foster care is a 2:07:58.360 --> 2:08:00.640 topic not enough people know about, and we're here to 2:08:00.720 --> 2:08:03.640 change that. I'm April Dinuity, host of the new podcast 2:08:03.800 --> 2:08:07.840 Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode brings 2:08:07.880 --> 2:08:11.240 you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the families 2:08:11.240 --> 2:08:14.640 that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us 2:08:14.760 --> 2:08:18.320 Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribed to Navigating Adoption 2:08:18.400 --> 2:08:21.040 presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you by the 2:08:21.080 --> 2:08:23.480 U S Department of Healthy Human Service as Administration for 2:08:23.560 --> 2:08:28.000 Children and Families and the ACT Council. I call the 2:08:28.080 --> 2:08:31.360 Union Hall as his male life and death. I thank 2:08:31.440 --> 2:08:34.880 these peeps of planning to kill Dr King. On April four, 2:08:36.360 --> 2:08:38.839 Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. 2:08:39.120 --> 2:08:42.440 A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He 2:08:42.560 --> 2:08:44.760 pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of 2:08:44.800 --> 2:08:50.040 his life in prison. Case closed right, James L. Ray 2:08:50.320 --> 2:08:55.040 was upon for the official story. The authorities would parade 2:08:55.080 --> 2:08:58.000 all we found a gun the James el Ray bought 2:08:58.040 --> 2:09:02.080 in Birmingham the jill Dr King, Except it wasn't the 2:09:02.080 --> 2:09:05.080 gun that killed Dr. King. One of the problems that 2:09:05.320 --> 2:09:08.720 came out when I got the Ray case was that 2:09:08.960 --> 2:09:12.120 some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned, 2:09:12.160 --> 2:09:16.280 did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. 2:09:16.600 --> 2:09:19.600 The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I 2:09:19.720 --> 2:09:23.480 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2:09:30.800 --> 2:09:35.200 Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, the podcast about 2:09:35.600 --> 2:09:38.760 you know, the problems and stuff that are happening and 2:09:38.800 --> 2:09:41.000 how to maybe make them better. And speaking of the 2:09:41.040 --> 2:09:43.160 problems that are happening and how to make them better. 2:09:43.720 --> 2:09:50.959 Garrison Davis, Hi, Hello, that's so that's a weird segue. 2:09:51.080 --> 2:09:53.400 I wanted to introduce this video telling you guys that 2:09:53.440 --> 2:09:55.480 I just watched a movie that you should watch because 2:09:55.480 --> 2:09:58.120 it's pretty rad and it ties into all the things 2:09:58.120 --> 2:10:00.960 we talked about. It's all the Pizza Gate massacre. And 2:10:01.000 --> 2:10:04.840 I didn't know it is a micro budget under a 2:10:04.920 --> 2:10:08.080 hundred thousand dollars film. It looks great. They did a 2:10:08.120 --> 2:10:11.200 really good job with the budget they had. About Um, 2:10:11.720 --> 2:10:15.960 an Alex Jones employee type person and a mass shooter 2:10:16.080 --> 2:10:19.360 who go looking for UH to try to solve the 2:10:19.360 --> 2:10:23.200 Pizza Gate thing. Oh boy, it is a an actually 2:10:23.440 --> 2:10:29.640 very nuanced and I think deeply knowledgeable commentary on specifically 2:10:29.720 --> 2:10:34.440 like the Texan conspiracy scene. Like it's a like film. 2:10:34.480 --> 2:10:36.960 They're Alex Jones character who's played by a woman in this. 2:10:37.040 --> 2:10:39.800 They film in the original studio that he recorded in 2:10:39.840 --> 2:10:43.839 back in them. Like the filmmaker who did this gets 2:10:44.440 --> 2:10:46.560 like the culture in the area and kind of the 2:10:46.600 --> 2:10:49.560 relationship between the people who get radicalized and do ship 2:10:49.720 --> 2:10:51.480 and the people who just profit from it. It's a 2:10:51.640 --> 2:10:54.760 very good Um it's it is, by the way, a 2:10:54.880 --> 2:10:58.040 grindhouse horror movie. Like whatever you're expecting, it's not that 2:10:58.160 --> 2:11:02.520 it is, Like it is an incredible lee gory grindhouse movie. Um. 2:11:02.560 --> 2:11:05.280 But it's it's pretty it's pretty fun. What does that 2:11:05.360 --> 2:11:08.040 have to do with? Nothing at all? But it has 2:11:08.040 --> 2:11:09.840 a lot to do with it could happen here, because 2:11:11.400 --> 2:11:16.360 all right, well anyway, um, this is that could happen 2:11:16.360 --> 2:11:18.200 here a show about how things are kind of falling 2:11:18.200 --> 2:11:20.680 apart and how we can then maybe slow that down 2:11:20.760 --> 2:11:26.880 or prepare for an uncertain future. Um about cops, right, 2:11:27.200 --> 2:11:29.600 I mean, I mean we are we are planning an 2:11:29.600 --> 2:11:33.920 episode on Washington State Patrol. Um. But no, this is 2:11:34.000 --> 2:11:37.200 episode is a different a different kind of cop about 2:11:37.440 --> 2:11:41.880 just as useful. Um. So in the first time episodes 2:11:42.080 --> 2:11:45.520 of The Daily Show or season two, which if you 2:11:45.560 --> 2:11:47.480 haven't listened to you should definitely listen to those that 2:11:47.560 --> 2:11:51.280 as they kind of act as our shows manifesto of sorts. 2:11:51.280 --> 2:11:55.200 But nevertheless, the first time episodes of the scripted Daily 2:11:55.480 --> 2:11:59.640 Show put forth like a more like realistic, non sugarcoated 2:11:59.680 --> 2:12:02.360 look at what climate change will bring if we continue 2:12:02.400 --> 2:12:05.760 on our current course. Um. But not just looking at 2:12:05.760 --> 2:12:09.040 the obvious environmental and extreme weather effects, but also like 2:12:09.080 --> 2:12:13.240 the socio political effects. So when I was helping Robert 2:12:13.240 --> 2:12:15.960 out with the research for those episodes, some of the 2:12:15.960 --> 2:12:20.280 best indicators of like the mainstream conception of the scientific, 2:12:20.360 --> 2:12:23.960 environmental and political status of climate change was at the 2:12:24.040 --> 2:12:28.440 United Nations past uh I I PCC reports, which is 2:12:28.440 --> 2:12:33.440 the inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change and the COP conferences. 2:12:34.040 --> 2:12:37.840 So during the first few weeks of this past November 2:12:37.880 --> 2:12:43.000 of November one, the twenty six annual COP Conference took 2:12:43.040 --> 2:12:47.000 place in Glasgow. Um And yeah, the name of the 2:12:47.040 --> 2:12:49.600 conference is kind of a decent indication on how useful 2:12:49.680 --> 2:12:54.040 these things actually are. Um. But a COPS stands for 2:12:54.080 --> 2:12:57.680 a Conference of the parties, and for almost three decades 2:12:57.720 --> 2:13:02.000 they've been like the main international stage uh for for 2:13:02.120 --> 2:13:06.400 countries and companies to discuss climate related information. And like 2:13:06.440 --> 2:13:11.200 they're alleged like goals. Um. So yeah, they're a good indicator, 2:13:11.320 --> 2:13:14.760 not unlike sometimes they do present actual good science and 2:13:14.800 --> 2:13:18.200 like decent predictions, but they're often just like a good 2:13:18.200 --> 2:13:22.640 indication of what kind of the mainstream people think about 2:13:22.680 --> 2:13:25.400 what climate change is. And you know what the people 2:13:25.400 --> 2:13:28.200 in power, how they are viewing it and how urgent 2:13:28.360 --> 2:13:31.200 they think it's worth addressing, versus how much money they 2:13:31.240 --> 2:13:35.720 want to spend on it. So the most notable COP 2:13:35.840 --> 2:13:41.040 in recent memory was in Paris COP twenty one. This 2:13:41.120 --> 2:13:45.080 is kind of where the Paris Climate Accords were born. UH. 2:13:45.120 --> 2:13:47.920 The commitment was to aim for one point five degrees 2:13:47.960 --> 2:13:50.480 of warming, and it was signed on by nearly all 2:13:50.600 --> 2:13:53.360 major countries. Of course the US signed on left then 2:13:53.480 --> 2:13:58.960 resigned on. But anyway, under the Paris Agreement, countries committed 2:13:59.080 --> 2:14:03.280 to bring forth like a national plans UH figuring figuring 2:14:03.320 --> 2:14:06.160 out how they would reduce their missions, but they would 2:14:06.160 --> 2:14:08.320 do it like by themselves, and they would be called 2:14:08.760 --> 2:14:12.600 n d c s or nationally determined contributions. And the 2:14:12.640 --> 2:14:15.840 idea was for every five years countries would gather up 2:14:16.160 --> 2:14:20.200 and present their current plans on the national stage. This 2:14:20.280 --> 2:14:22.800 was what Coppy was going to be. Now it was 2:14:22.880 --> 2:14:25.720 delayed a year because of the pandemic, but COP twenty 2:14:25.760 --> 2:14:29.400 six was the time for countries to present their n 2:14:29.480 --> 2:14:33.160 d c s on and for like, their updated versions 2:14:33.160 --> 2:14:36.600 on their plans to reduce some missions. So most of 2:14:36.600 --> 2:14:40.000 the NDCs got submitted before the conference and kind of 2:14:40.080 --> 2:14:44.480 led the discussion of the conference. UM By like mid October, UH, 2:14:44.600 --> 2:14:50.400 think about of the countries or states that signed onto 2:14:50.440 --> 2:14:54.720 the Paris Agreement submitted their submitted their version of the NDCs, 2:14:54.760 --> 2:14:57.240 and and and those countries about a hundred and forty 2:14:57.280 --> 2:15:00.640 of them are responsible for the majority of global emissions. 2:15:01.160 --> 2:15:04.120 So that that that was what kind of led up 2:15:04.240 --> 2:15:09.800 to two copy from happening UM. And the the overarching 2:15:09.920 --> 2:15:15.880 aim of the conference, according to President UM, when I 2:15:16.000 --> 2:15:21.520 try to pronounce this name um outlock sharma UM. He 2:15:21.680 --> 2:15:24.080 said that the the the idea for the conference was 2:15:24.120 --> 2:15:29.680 to like keep alive the Paris Agreements target to keep 2:15:29.720 --> 2:15:34.960 global temperatures from rising above one point five degrees celsius 2:15:35.560 --> 2:15:38.600 above pre industrial levels. So that was that was like 2:15:38.680 --> 2:15:41.480 the goal of the conference going into it was to 2:15:41.560 --> 2:15:44.040 kind of keep this idea of the Paris Climate Accords 2:15:44.040 --> 2:15:47.760 of still being achievable. UM. And that's and that's not 2:15:47.800 --> 2:15:51.200 what happened at the top twenties UM. Now it's it's 2:15:51.200 --> 2:15:54.560 it's important to kind of point out that the commitments 2:15:54.640 --> 2:15:58.240 laid out in the Paris Accords don't come close to 2:15:58.360 --> 2:16:00.960 limiting global warming to one point five degrees as it 2:16:01.000 --> 2:16:04.600 is said in the accords. Like like like they they acknowledge that, UM, 2:16:04.600 --> 2:16:07.160 which is what the kind of NDCs are for. But 2:16:07.240 --> 2:16:09.600 even still those are just non those are those are 2:16:09.640 --> 2:16:13.560 just non binding agreements. But anyway, so the cord, the 2:16:13.600 --> 2:16:16.600 Accords and the restrictions and goals, and well, there's no 2:16:16.640 --> 2:16:19.360 restrictions as just goals. The goals and them don't don't 2:16:19.360 --> 2:16:21.880 come close to limiting to one point five degrees. And 2:16:21.960 --> 2:16:24.520 we have already most likely shot way past the point 2:16:24.520 --> 2:16:27.960 of that being in any way achievable. UM. But you know, 2:16:28.000 --> 2:16:31.080 we can still limit things from being megabad like four degrees. 2:16:31.200 --> 2:16:34.600 But we are we are already on a certain path. 2:16:35.200 --> 2:16:39.560 So in in asking nations to set tougher targets by 2:16:40.120 --> 2:16:43.680 next year for cutting climate warming emissions, the new agreement 2:16:43.879 --> 2:16:47.640 at Glasgow acknowledge that the commitments that were in place 2:16:47.760 --> 2:16:52.480 are inadequate, and if rigorously followed, the the new national 2:16:52.520 --> 2:16:56.080 pledges so include the stuff including the Paris Accords and 2:16:56.120 --> 2:16:59.439 the new Glasgow packed um and all of the individual 2:16:59.600 --> 2:17:02.520 like uh N d c s. If all of those 2:17:02.560 --> 2:17:06.000 are followed, the world is now on track for a 2:17:06.040 --> 2:17:09.360 two point one to two point four degrees celsius of 2:17:09.400 --> 2:17:11.440 warming by the end of the century. And that is 2:17:11.480 --> 2:17:15.000 the lower estimate, as we'll see later on. Higher estimates 2:17:15.000 --> 2:17:19.800 were also umm shown at at the at the Glasgow conference, 2:17:19.959 --> 2:17:23.040 so we have the The idea was to hopefully keep 2:17:23.040 --> 2:17:26.000 it to one point five and already we're pushing that 2:17:26.080 --> 2:17:28.200 back by almost a whole a whole degree if we're 2:17:28.200 --> 2:17:31.680 going to like two point four. Um So that that's 2:17:31.720 --> 2:17:35.160 that's like the main one of the main impacts there 2:17:35.280 --> 2:17:38.000 is like just totally kissing one point five goodbye, like 2:17:38.080 --> 2:17:41.160 know what, no one even is going to view that 2:17:41.400 --> 2:17:48.119 as a possibility at this point. Huh. So, I don't 2:17:48.120 --> 2:17:50.760 know how many people were still looking at that as 2:17:51.040 --> 2:17:53.360 really a goal. Apparently some people of the planners of 2:17:53.360 --> 2:17:58.200 copy apparently were. Um but I mean, I know for us, 2:17:58.280 --> 2:18:00.800 we've we've been aware of that, and I'm not sure 2:18:00.840 --> 2:18:05.000 how you know, really what mainstream liberals were thinking before this, 2:18:05.720 --> 2:18:08.959 but hopefully at the very least, maybe Cup twenty six 2:18:09.080 --> 2:18:12.000 made them realize that maybe it's there's a there's kind 2:18:12.040 --> 2:18:16.480 of it's it's maybe maybe worse than what you were thinking. Um. 2:18:16.520 --> 2:18:19.360 But so there are other things did happen at at 2:18:19.520 --> 2:18:23.280 Glasgow that are that are worth looking into. Um So, 2:18:23.400 --> 2:18:28.039 the main quote unquote achievements of the Glasgow deal besides 2:18:28.080 --> 2:18:31.080 like revisiting the emissions cutting plants to try to keep 2:18:31.120 --> 2:18:34.160 stuff down, which of course we're you know, not not 2:18:34.160 --> 2:18:37.240 not met in shot way past. Um but there we 2:18:37.280 --> 2:18:40.879 also had the first ever inclusion of a commitment to 2:18:41.600 --> 2:18:45.240 limit coal use. Now, the way phrasing is gonna work here, 2:18:45.240 --> 2:18:47.600 it's gonna be really interesting because the reason why this 2:18:47.680 --> 2:18:51.240 deal got passed is because some very specific shifts in 2:18:51.320 --> 2:18:54.840 their phrasing around coal use. UM. The other thing that 2:18:54.879 --> 2:18:58.720 caught that cut twenty six tried to do was increase 2:18:59.080 --> 2:19:03.480 financial help or so called developing countries and provide funds 2:19:03.480 --> 2:19:07.400 and assistance for like climate disasters. So like when when 2:19:07.440 --> 2:19:10.119 like extreme weather events happen, have a set of funds 2:19:10.560 --> 2:19:14.560 UH set aside to help countries in these disasters. Now 2:19:14.920 --> 2:19:17.560 those are that that is a good idea, But as 2:19:17.560 --> 2:19:19.800 we'll see later, the way Cops twenty six actually did 2:19:19.800 --> 2:19:22.480 it is not actually doing it. It's like they're they're 2:19:22.520 --> 2:19:25.360 they're pushing there, they're postponing this kind of goal, but 2:19:25.440 --> 2:19:30.040 they're just making it a prospect. But back to coal. So, 2:19:30.440 --> 2:19:33.039 the Glasgow Climate Pact was the first ever climate deal 2:19:33.080 --> 2:19:36.920 to explicitly planned to reduce coal, which was a one 2:19:37.040 --> 2:19:41.000 one of the worst. Like fossil fuels for four greenhouse 2:19:41.040 --> 2:19:44.480 gasses UM and and and cole really can be phased out. 2:19:45.000 --> 2:19:48.640 Coal can be phased out by UM electric power really easily. 2:19:48.680 --> 2:19:52.520 It's it's it is the easiest one. UM. It's it's 2:19:52.760 --> 2:19:55.360 way easier to phase out coal than it is uh 2:19:55.520 --> 2:20:01.120 natural gas or other um or sorry, let's see the 2:20:01.120 --> 2:20:04.039 the the other main one. There's three. There's a coal, 2:20:04.240 --> 2:20:10.920 natural gas, what's what's the last one? Regular gas? I 2:20:10.920 --> 2:20:14.640 guess so yeah, yeah, petroleum based stuff. UM. Yeah, but 2:20:14.680 --> 2:20:18.520 so the coals because coal is you mostly used for heat, um, 2:20:18.560 --> 2:20:22.520 electrically generated heat is way is way easier than all 2:20:22.720 --> 2:20:25.360 than those other two. So coal coal really should be 2:20:25.360 --> 2:20:28.640 phased out as soon as possible. UM. But the commitments 2:20:28.680 --> 2:20:32.360 to phase out coal that was introduced in earlier negotiations 2:20:32.920 --> 2:20:36.640 UM led to some fighting, specifically among India and China, 2:20:36.760 --> 2:20:41.039 who were in in strong opposition to the phrasing and 2:20:41.720 --> 2:20:47.160 the actual constraints of of the deal UM. And a 2:20:47.160 --> 2:20:49.879 lot of this is like the argument that like, if 2:20:49.920 --> 2:20:52.760 these countries are still developing, it's not fair to them 2:20:53.040 --> 2:20:56.440 to remove this resource when other developed nations had it, 2:20:56.560 --> 2:20:58.000 so that that that's that's the thing. We see that 2:20:58.080 --> 2:21:00.280 argument a lot around, Like climate changed to of as 2:21:00.360 --> 2:21:02.800 like oh, you you're just gonna stop other countries from 2:21:02.800 --> 2:21:05.959 developing because you you you got to get to this 2:21:06.120 --> 2:21:11.040 certain point of being a successful like wealthy nation um. 2:21:11.080 --> 2:21:13.960 And like you know with all this like industrial development 2:21:14.480 --> 2:21:17.560 on the back of fossil fuels and stuff. But then 2:21:17.560 --> 2:21:19.760 now you're going to remove that opportunity for other countries. 2:21:19.800 --> 2:21:22.320 Now there is there is um a lot of stuff 2:21:22.320 --> 2:21:25.480 around like the growth frameworks that address this issue and 2:21:25.560 --> 2:21:30.280 specifically try to try to get um fossil fuel savings 2:21:30.320 --> 2:21:33.640 like a decrease in emissions and be able to use 2:21:33.879 --> 2:21:37.240 some of those gains to assist countries in getting stuff 2:21:37.400 --> 2:21:40.160 set up to a decent standard of living. UM. But 2:21:40.240 --> 2:21:42.240 you know that that is going to be addressed on 2:21:42.280 --> 2:21:45.200 a whole other scale around like capitalism and and how 2:21:45.320 --> 2:21:48.280 countries intervened in other countries. That that's part of a 2:21:48.280 --> 2:21:51.959 bigger political question. But anyway, UM, Indian China did not 2:21:52.000 --> 2:21:54.240 like that, did not like the cold deal. UM. So 2:21:54.360 --> 2:21:58.440 in the end, the countries did agree to phase down 2:21:58.760 --> 2:22:02.000 coal rather than these out coal. So that that that 2:22:02.160 --> 2:22:07.000 is the phrase that they ended up using is phased down. UM. 2:22:07.080 --> 2:22:11.560 The people weren't super happy about this. Uh. The Cutty 2:22:11.600 --> 2:22:15.320 six president um Alec Sharma said that he was deeply 2:22:15.440 --> 2:22:19.280 sorry for how these events unfolded, and like, focus on 2:22:19.320 --> 2:22:22.040 coal is good. It's because it's responsible for about of 2:22:22.080 --> 2:22:25.920 annual CEO two emissions. But also like just focusing on 2:22:26.000 --> 2:22:30.000 coal leaves of really big lack of discussion on oil 2:22:30.040 --> 2:22:33.240 and gas, Like there's like those are also like very 2:22:33.280 --> 2:22:35.920 bad and arguably we should be focusing on those a lot, 2:22:36.000 --> 2:22:38.760 Like those are those are the main ones we should 2:22:38.760 --> 2:22:40.120 get we should get rid of coal, Yes, but if 2:22:40.160 --> 2:22:42.960 we just focus on that, then there's a lot of 2:22:43.000 --> 2:22:46.640 other stuff going on. So that is that is a 2:22:46.640 --> 2:22:51.760 lot of coal talk. Uh you know who also uses coal? 2:22:54.240 --> 2:23:00.000 Our sponsors, Yeah, we're entirely sponsored by Joe Manchin um 2:23:00.160 --> 2:23:03.080 big friend of the pod. Thank you, thank you for 2:23:03.120 --> 2:23:07.880 always having our back. Joe. Anyway, here's some ads and 2:23:08.080 --> 2:23:12.280 we are back talking about copy and there is there 2:23:12.360 --> 2:23:15.640 is a decent there's stuff. Stuff did happen. So and 2:23:15.640 --> 2:23:17.200 I know it is going to be more of a 2:23:17.560 --> 2:23:20.359 sign C in Numbers episode, but it is worth actually 2:23:20.680 --> 2:23:24.600 figuring out what what happened there because everyone just kind 2:23:24.600 --> 2:23:27.480 of had the perception like, oh, copy was a failure, 2:23:27.520 --> 2:23:29.800 because yeah it was, um, but it's it's it is 2:23:29.840 --> 2:23:32.640 good to know what actually is going on at things 2:23:32.720 --> 2:23:35.280 like this because if we're going to get some kind 2:23:35.320 --> 2:23:38.400 of you know, liberal change, this is where it's going 2:23:38.440 --> 2:23:40.680 to happen. So it is good to keep an eye 2:23:40.680 --> 2:23:44.080 on what these types of people are thinking. So we 2:23:44.160 --> 2:23:47.280 we left off on talking about how their plans to 2:23:47.320 --> 2:23:50.000 face down coal, and there was like a general lack 2:23:50.040 --> 2:23:52.800 of focus on oil and gas. And it is interesting, 2:23:53.040 --> 2:23:59.920 um if you So there was a group of actor 2:24:00.080 --> 2:24:03.520 bests led by this uh I think I think it's 2:24:03.520 --> 2:24:08.519 like an NGO called Global Witness. UM assessed the participant 2:24:08.600 --> 2:24:11.280 list published by the u N at the start of 2:24:11.320 --> 2:24:14.320 the meeting, and they found that there was five hundred 2:24:14.320 --> 2:24:17.560 and three people with links to fossil fuel interests who 2:24:17.640 --> 2:24:22.480 were like accredited members of the Climate's Summit and so, 2:24:22.760 --> 2:24:25.959 and they were like delicates. So cop twenty six delegates 2:24:25.959 --> 2:24:30.240 associated with fossil fuels outnumbered national delegate numbers for every 2:24:30.240 --> 2:24:34.800 other country. So there were more people representing fossil fuel 2:24:34.800 --> 2:24:40.480 interests than there were representing any individual country. So you're thinking, 2:24:41.720 --> 2:24:44.360 maybe maybe I wonder why this stuff is not going 2:24:44.440 --> 2:24:48.040 too good. Oh, it's because it's being run mostly by 2:24:48.040 --> 2:24:53.400 fossil fuel companies. That's that's uh huh, that's an interesting, 2:24:53.600 --> 2:24:58.800 interesting little thing there. Um yeah. So the the other 2:24:58.879 --> 2:25:03.160 the other kind of notable thing about is uh it 2:25:03.400 --> 2:25:06.720 uh it. It led to a quote unquote breakthrough in 2:25:06.840 --> 2:25:11.480 the rules for government led carbon markets. So this is 2:25:11.520 --> 2:25:15.320 the thing that the neoliberals are really excited about, is 2:25:15.360 --> 2:25:17.600 this idea of carbon markets, because it's a way to 2:25:18.240 --> 2:25:22.360 make more money kind of off of removing carbon and 2:25:22.520 --> 2:25:25.640 just to create a lot of red tape and bureaucracy 2:25:25.680 --> 2:25:29.800 around this idea of lowering emissions. So, I guess one 2:25:29.840 --> 2:25:31.680 of the ways to describe carbon markets if you're kind 2:25:31.680 --> 2:25:37.039 of unfamiliar with this idea, is that countries that do 2:25:37.120 --> 2:25:41.720 not meet their emission reduction targets in their national climate 2:25:41.800 --> 2:25:48.279 pledges are like penalized for this. Um so, so countries 2:25:48.280 --> 2:25:51.000 that countries that don't meet their mission targets or or 2:25:51.160 --> 2:25:55.680 want to just pursue like less less expansive emission cuts. 2:25:56.080 --> 2:25:59.720 What what what this deal set out to do is 2:25:59.760 --> 2:26:04.480 that instead of actually lowering emissions, they can purchase like 2:26:04.560 --> 2:26:09.200 emissions reduction tokens and credits from other nations that have 2:26:09.440 --> 2:26:12.359 cut their emissions more than the amount that they pledged. 2:26:12.840 --> 2:26:15.400 Uh so, like by you know, moving to low carbon 2:26:15.600 --> 2:26:19.440 energy and various stuff. So the turn of phrase that 2:26:19.520 --> 2:26:22.160 people were using to discuss this to how you can 2:26:22.200 --> 2:26:25.800 like purchase purchase credits to represent emissions that you didn't 2:26:25.840 --> 2:26:29.680 cut but wanted to, is that this can potentially unlock 2:26:29.920 --> 2:26:34.520 trillions of dollars for protecting forests, expanding renewable energy, and 2:26:34.640 --> 2:26:39.680 other projects to combat climate change. Um. So the idea 2:26:39.800 --> 2:26:42.360 here is that the money used to purchase these credits 2:26:42.480 --> 2:26:46.360 is going to get put into other things that will 2:26:46.400 --> 2:26:50.360 help fight climate change. But all of this is non 2:26:50.400 --> 2:26:54.279 binding and speculative, and it just furthers this whole carbon 2:26:54.360 --> 2:26:59.600 market concept, which I'm not thrilled about. Um yeah, we should, 2:26:59.600 --> 2:27:01.680 we should do like a full episode of carbon markets. 2:27:01.800 --> 2:27:06.000 But the thing, so I I this is, you know, 2:27:06.040 --> 2:27:08.959 this is the thing I studied academically in college and 2:27:09.400 --> 2:27:11.840 is incredibly important for everyone to understand that carbon markets 2:27:11.840 --> 2:27:14.640 are fake and do not work at all. Ever one 2:27:14.720 --> 2:27:17.000 has ever gotten where, no one's ever gotten the national 2:27:17.000 --> 2:27:18.720 one to work, and no one's ever got an international 2:27:18.720 --> 2:27:22.640 one to work. Uh. Implementation of carbon markets, Like China 2:27:22.879 --> 2:27:25.080 had a big thing that they're gonna implemented carbon market. Uh, 2:27:25.200 --> 2:27:28.359 it was fake. It didn't work. Their carbon emission still increase, 2:27:29.040 --> 2:27:32.760 very very like how fucky carbon markets can be. So 2:27:32.840 --> 2:27:35.880 you get carbon credits if you're a business like Tesla 2:27:36.120 --> 2:27:41.080 that makes no emission electronic vehicles, and Tesla for a 2:27:41.160 --> 2:27:43.480 lot of its earlier history, made a significant chunk of 2:27:43.520 --> 2:27:47.879 its profits selling carbon credits to polluting industries and basically saying, 2:27:48.120 --> 2:27:50.760 you guys keep polluting, we got your back. Like the 2:27:51.120 --> 2:27:53.360 fact that we're putting electric cars out onto the street 2:27:53.440 --> 2:27:55.720 means you guys can keep admitting at the same well, 2:27:55.840 --> 2:28:00.039 like that's that's like literally how how kind of the 2:28:00.040 --> 2:28:03.440 the business can work. It's it's not the best way 2:28:03.480 --> 2:28:06.920 to fix the problem. Yeah, So there's a lot of 2:28:07.000 --> 2:28:10.240 a lot of talk was around carbon markets, um, because 2:28:10.320 --> 2:28:14.080 that's of course with the neo liberal establishment, neo liberal 2:28:14.120 --> 2:28:18.160 eblishment is going to focus on because it's still is 2:28:18.200 --> 2:28:21.120 within their kind of worldview. Um, how do we monetize 2:28:21.160 --> 2:28:23.400 the rot? Yeah? How do we how do we make 2:28:23.480 --> 2:28:27.160 money off of the world ending? Um? Which I guess 2:28:27.200 --> 2:28:29.560 we're going to see a lot more of that, uh 2:28:29.640 --> 2:28:32.640 in the next in the next few decades. Um. The 2:28:32.640 --> 2:28:35.200 the other the other thing that they decided on is, uh, 2:28:35.440 --> 2:28:37.800 next year, there's gonna there's gonna be again. So there's 2:28:37.840 --> 2:28:41.480 there's they decided to procrastinate, which is just a general 2:28:41.520 --> 2:28:44.879 theme of COP conferences is what we've been doing with 2:28:45.360 --> 2:28:48.360 It's what everyone's been doing about permit change since forever. 2:28:48.720 --> 2:28:52.160 So yeah, the main thing they do is decide to procrastinate. 2:28:52.440 --> 2:28:55.240 Um So, next year there's gonna be a U N 2:28:55.280 --> 2:28:59.879 Committee to report on progress towards delivering one billion dollar 2:29:00.080 --> 2:29:04.000 per year in a promised climate funding. Uh. This was 2:29:04.080 --> 2:29:07.520 after rich nations failed to deliver on the deadline four 2:29:07.640 --> 2:29:11.200 said funds um and then financing is gonna be discussed 2:29:11.200 --> 2:29:15.840 again in twenty four six those conferences. Um. But this 2:29:15.840 --> 2:29:19.120 this deal left a lot of more vulnerable nations who 2:29:19.120 --> 2:29:23.000 were going to rely on this promised funding. Uh kind 2:29:23.040 --> 2:29:26.160 of just they just left them without things. So the 2:29:26.160 --> 2:29:29.119 whole idea was that like, yeah, we need this funding 2:29:29.160 --> 2:29:32.720 to help people in these and disasters and different losses 2:29:32.720 --> 2:29:36.400 and damages and to help you know, start start making 2:29:36.440 --> 2:29:41.440 more um renewable energy technology in lieu of doing tons 2:29:41.440 --> 2:29:43.640 of tons of coal mining. And that's where this money 2:29:43.680 --> 2:29:46.680 was going to get used for and it's not happening. 2:29:47.080 --> 2:29:52.920 Um So. And this this promise was initially made at 2:29:52.959 --> 2:29:58.240 a UN Conference on Climate Change, and we're still we're 2:29:58.240 --> 2:30:02.320 still pushing it back year by year. So this pledge 2:30:02.360 --> 2:30:06.360 is older than I am. Yeah, it sure is. Another 2:30:06.360 --> 2:30:09.240 pledge me into us A nine to provide a hundred 2:30:09.240 --> 2:30:12.480 billion dollars to emerging economies was supposed to be made. 2:30:13.280 --> 2:30:15.840 That also was missed. Um and it was. It was 2:30:15.879 --> 2:30:18.400 designed to help nations adapt to climate effects and make 2:30:18.400 --> 2:30:22.840 the transition to clean energy. Um and uh. The Cops 2:30:22.840 --> 2:30:25.879 Spring six president said that around five dred billion will 2:30:25.879 --> 2:30:32.840 be mobilized by so cool. Thanks for saying those numbers 2:30:32.879 --> 2:30:35.720 which mean nothing. It's fun. It's fun how you can 2:30:35.760 --> 2:30:38.160 just talk and say things and it doesn't actually matter. 2:30:39.000 --> 2:30:41.320 It's It's one of the things that's so frustrating about 2:30:41.320 --> 2:30:45.039 this is trying to get a handle on, like how 2:30:45.080 --> 2:30:47.520 how a lot of these solutions are supposed to work. So, 2:30:47.600 --> 2:30:49.640 like one of the articles if you're trying to actually 2:30:50.240 --> 2:30:51.960 if you're not just taking our word for it, which 2:30:51.959 --> 2:30:54.920 you never should, and trying to research like carbon credits 2:30:55.000 --> 2:30:57.640 and and carbon markets and like how they might work 2:30:57.760 --> 2:31:00.000 or might help. Like one of the articles you're gonna 2:31:00.040 --> 2:31:03.400 come across is an article in Nature dot org called 2:31:03.480 --> 2:31:06.680 making carbon Markets Work for faster climate action. And this 2:31:06.760 --> 2:31:10.080 is very much obviously it's pretty it's pretty recent, and 2:31:10.120 --> 2:31:12.840 it's not at all a climate denial piece. It's it's 2:31:12.879 --> 2:31:15.560 just kind of laying out a case for how carbon 2:31:15.640 --> 2:31:20.400 markets could be very effective at reducing emissions. But you 2:31:20.480 --> 2:31:22.160 have to grapple the whole time you're looking at this 2:31:22.160 --> 2:31:26.760 with the fact that like they haven't that that global 2:31:27.160 --> 2:31:30.080 global emissions are still shoo and they provide a number 2:31:30.080 --> 2:31:34.119 of like options for how this could work. And it's 2:31:34.120 --> 2:31:35.520 one of those things where I'm not going to say 2:31:36.040 --> 2:31:38.640 it's impossible. I'm certainly not an expert on this, and 2:31:38.680 --> 2:31:41.600 you can read through the article um if you want, 2:31:41.720 --> 2:31:45.280 but it's it's certainly certainly think the thing you can 2:31:45.320 --> 2:31:47.960 say right now is that carbon markets have not led 2:31:48.080 --> 2:31:50.600 to a global decrease in emissions, because we we have 2:31:50.680 --> 2:31:53.920 not had emissions decrease other than that little dip we 2:31:53.959 --> 2:31:59.280 had when a covid uh did It's it's sweet little dance. Yeah, 2:31:59.360 --> 2:32:03.320 that one month where we could actually see the sky again. Yeah, 2:32:03.360 --> 2:32:06.840 that was pretty rad um. But yeah, there's there's I mean, 2:32:06.920 --> 2:32:08.600 you you can check that article out for kind of 2:32:08.640 --> 2:32:12.160 the pro carbon markets case. It all seems I Mean, 2:32:12.160 --> 2:32:14.200 one of the things that's frustrating to me about it 2:32:14.240 --> 2:32:18.560 is it all it's all like, yeah, here's how it 2:32:18.680 --> 2:32:21.560 might work. If you know, everybody got on board the 2:32:21.560 --> 2:32:24.960 Paris Climate Agreement and also all of this worked ideally, 2:32:25.600 --> 2:32:27.440 But there's there just doesn't seem to be a lot 2:32:27.480 --> 2:32:31.600 of I I just don't see any evidence that like 2:32:31.760 --> 2:32:35.720 they've shown that this is actually likely to be helpful. Um. 2:32:35.760 --> 2:32:38.320 It's more just like yeah, this this could this could 2:32:38.320 --> 2:32:42.440 work if if we do these other things, um, which 2:32:42.480 --> 2:32:44.440 is frustrating. That's like all all of the kind of 2:32:44.440 --> 2:32:46.560 ship that you get at at at COP twenty six, 2:32:46.600 --> 2:32:49.280 where it's like, yeah, I guess theoretically, if you were 2:32:49.280 --> 2:32:51.000 to do that, or if that were to work the 2:32:51.000 --> 2:32:52.640 way you're saying, or if that were to work with 2:32:52.680 --> 2:32:55.960 the assumption that like all these other factors don't grow 2:32:56.000 --> 2:32:58.920 over this period of time, than than this might help. 2:32:59.040 --> 2:33:03.879 But we also know what's happened with emissions and global 2:33:03.920 --> 2:33:07.240 attempts to reduce climate change, um. Which is not to 2:33:07.280 --> 2:33:11.039 say that like like emissions in the United States, like 2:33:11.120 --> 2:33:12.760 there have been there's been a lot that's been done 2:33:12.760 --> 2:33:15.480 to curb emissions from the United States. Now the thing 2:33:15.560 --> 2:33:17.960 that's often left out of like the discussion of these 2:33:17.959 --> 2:33:20.879 different things and how they impacted our emissions is like, well, 2:33:20.920 --> 2:33:23.200 a lot of those emissions got pushed off to other 2:33:23.280 --> 2:33:25.400 countries that are now making the things that we were 2:33:25.440 --> 2:33:28.280 making for I like that. That's the big thing when 2:33:28.320 --> 2:33:30.840 people argue against the growth and they're like, no, you can. 2:33:30.920 --> 2:33:34.199 You can still keep growing your economy while lowering emissions, 2:33:34.200 --> 2:33:37.720 and like, yeah, one country can, but we still want 2:33:37.760 --> 2:33:40.320 the stuff, so we're just moving it to other countries 2:33:40.360 --> 2:33:43.800 to produce, so like we're not actually lowering it on 2:33:43.840 --> 2:33:45.959 a global level. You can lower you can lower it 2:33:45.959 --> 2:33:49.480 on like an individual country level, but not totally globally 2:33:49.480 --> 2:33:51.920 because we still want to consume the thing. This is 2:33:52.000 --> 2:33:54.280 one of the single most frustrating things about talking to 2:33:54.280 --> 2:33:57.000 peopleball climate change is that, Okay, you know, if you 2:33:57.000 --> 2:33:58.560 if you talk to the sort of Neiler book carbon 2:33:58.600 --> 2:34:02.160 market people, right, if you talk about literally anything else, right, 2:34:02.240 --> 2:34:04.080 the only thing they ever talked about is how the 2:34:04.160 --> 2:34:06.720 entire world is inter connected, how the entire economies and connected, 2:34:06.720 --> 2:34:09.160 how we're ward are connected than ever. And then the 2:34:09.200 --> 2:34:12.560 moment you start talking about climate change, they go, oh, well, 2:34:12.560 --> 2:34:14.920 it's all the individual country individual country, individual country. The 2:34:14.920 --> 2:34:16.880 economy is not connected at all. It's all about the 2:34:16.879 --> 2:34:19.960 individual policy makers country. It's like, no, it's not the 2:34:20.000 --> 2:34:23.080 it's it's about like all all of the like the 2:34:23.080 --> 2:34:26.560 the the the the the emissions are foreign direct investment driven. Right, 2:34:26.680 --> 2:34:28.280 it's about it's a it's about's about what it's about 2:34:28.280 --> 2:34:32.840 where investment money is going. And you cannot and you 2:34:32.879 --> 2:34:34.680 know this, this is this is why COP and someone 2:34:34.800 --> 2:34:36.440 is like, this is why it doesn't work. And even 2:34:36.440 --> 2:34:38.080 though it's the only frame rate that could work, right, 2:34:38.080 --> 2:34:39.879 you have to have an international response that has to 2:34:39.879 --> 2:34:43.360 be coordinated, it has to be working across national lines 2:34:43.400 --> 2:34:46.200 because again that's how the economystem works. But it doesn't 2:34:46.560 --> 2:34:50.400 because a state's individual states can't and will not ever 2:34:50.480 --> 2:34:53.720 solve this. And then be COP is like, okay, so 2:34:53.760 --> 2:34:56.000 here's here's your international framework. But also we're just gonna 2:34:56.080 --> 2:34:59.200 have you know, the actual the the the actual international 2:34:59.240 --> 2:35:01.920 framework is going to you just essentially hair it up 2:35:01.959 --> 2:35:04.959 by bunch of fossil fuel companies and so it's just 2:35:05.280 --> 2:35:08.160 you know, it's it's the worst of both worlds. I mean, 2:35:08.240 --> 2:35:11.400 it's and it you can see there's there's some kind 2:35:11.400 --> 2:35:14.680 of acknowledgement at the fact that this is an international 2:35:14.720 --> 2:35:18.119 problem in in like the basic idea of of carbon markets, 2:35:18.160 --> 2:35:22.400 which includes the idea that like, um, you can companies 2:35:22.440 --> 2:35:25.240 that that emit emit lesson don't use up their carbon 2:35:25.280 --> 2:35:27.480 budget can like sell carbon credits and you can do 2:35:27.520 --> 2:35:31.039 this across international lines. And like if we hold if 2:35:31.040 --> 2:35:35.400 we hold companies to different like emission standards internationally based 2:35:35.400 --> 2:35:37.800 on things like the Paris Climate Agreement, then that will 2:35:37.840 --> 2:35:41.520 cause the carbon credit system to work better. Um, there's 2:35:41.520 --> 2:35:44.360 that acknowledgement that it is an international problem. But again 2:35:44.440 --> 2:35:48.279 I just don't I don't see I don't see evidence 2:35:48.320 --> 2:35:51.400 that it's working, and they like none of the evidence 2:35:51.440 --> 2:35:55.040 that I've read makes it seem like there's a very 2:35:55.040 --> 2:35:57.200 good case that this is going to at the very least, 2:35:57.200 --> 2:35:58.920 that this is going to provide the kind of emissions 2:35:58.920 --> 2:36:02.840 productions that are necessary to forestall the worst case scenarios 2:36:02.879 --> 2:36:05.960 that are coming. Um. And if we're gonna be again 2:36:06.000 --> 2:36:08.840 to be completely intellectually honest here, we can talk about 2:36:08.920 --> 2:36:12.520 d growth all day long. UM. I have a similar 2:36:12.560 --> 2:36:15.080 problem with that that I do to a lot of 2:36:15.080 --> 2:36:19.959 these the different kind of targets that copy six introduced 2:36:20.040 --> 2:36:23.800 stuff like carbon markets, where it's like I don't I 2:36:23.840 --> 2:36:28.360 don't see that solving the problem either. It's like a 2:36:28.400 --> 2:36:31.320 theoretical it's it's yeah, if we were to get people 2:36:31.360 --> 2:36:34.760 to if if we've gotten people on board with D growth, 2:36:34.800 --> 2:36:38.080 then you've already fundamentally shifted the very nature of global 2:36:38.120 --> 2:36:41.640 society um. And also the way in which Americans and 2:36:41.680 --> 2:36:45.400 people in other Western nations like conceived of economics at 2:36:45.400 --> 2:36:49.480 a fundamental level. Um. And so it's it's one thing 2:36:49.520 --> 2:36:53.520 to say that, like, yeah, if people accepted that and 2:36:53.520 --> 2:36:56.720 and got on board with a lifestyle that is not 2:36:56.800 --> 2:36:59.880 based on this this kind of capitalist notion of endless growth, 2:37:00.000 --> 2:37:02.720 of ever increasing extraction from the world in order to 2:37:02.760 --> 2:37:07.480 create value, um, then we could we could actually stop 2:37:07.520 --> 2:37:09.200 emitting at the kind of levels that are going to 2:37:09.280 --> 2:37:12.800 lead to these horrible consequences. UM. The question is like, 2:37:13.080 --> 2:37:16.440 I don't see a I don't see you you can. 2:37:16.760 --> 2:37:19.080 I think you can argue that D growth is more 2:37:19.160 --> 2:37:23.560 realistic in that yes, that would absolutely work, as opposed 2:37:23.600 --> 2:37:25.800 to carbon credits and other things where it's like, well, 2:37:25.840 --> 2:37:28.680 theoretically it might work if they do all this other stuff. Yeah, 2:37:28.760 --> 2:37:33.360 it does. It does revolve on the cultural notion of 2:37:33.600 --> 2:37:37.960 America and the West completely changing. Um it's a big 2:37:37.959 --> 2:37:40.280 it's a big ask, you know, yeah, And I mean 2:37:40.280 --> 2:37:44.000 like there is there's smaller steps, like totally like reorganizing 2:37:44.000 --> 2:37:46.560 how cities work so we do not use cars, uh, 2:37:46.800 --> 2:37:50.519 like like like re redoing a public transportation like sector 2:37:50.920 --> 2:37:54.360 uh in you know, making like making like a cellar 2:37:54.400 --> 2:37:57.039 panels and a rowable energy I required part of like 2:37:57.160 --> 2:37:58.960 city infrastructure right there. There's a there's a lot of 2:37:59.000 --> 2:38:02.200 ways to put just two awards that thing. But there's 2:38:02.200 --> 2:38:04.200 not one thing we can do right because it is 2:38:04.280 --> 2:38:07.360 in large parts of cultural change. Stuff stuff will help 2:38:07.400 --> 2:38:10.840 with emissions, Like if we if we redesign cities around 2:38:10.840 --> 2:38:13.640 public transportation and make it so stuff is not as 2:38:13.680 --> 2:38:16.160 as far apart, and yeah, that that's gonna help lower emissions. 2:38:16.160 --> 2:38:18.640 If we if we require all these other types of 2:38:18.840 --> 2:38:23.160 renewable energy projects to be built into buildings and added 2:38:23.240 --> 2:38:25.320 on to our current cities, and yeah, that that is 2:38:25.320 --> 2:38:28.400 going to help lower emissions. But you know, there's there's 2:38:28.440 --> 2:38:31.120 not one one big step that we can all do 2:38:31.160 --> 2:38:33.920 at the same time. And I think that that's I 2:38:33.920 --> 2:38:36.760 don't know, I'm of two minds about it. One part 2:38:36.760 --> 2:38:40.160 of me says, that's absolutely the most intelligent way to 2:38:40.160 --> 2:38:44.200 go about it is focusing on things like reducing the 2:38:44.280 --> 2:38:47.400 use of like like like really all ending car culture 2:38:47.520 --> 2:38:50.560 in cities. Yeah, because it's not even a reduction thing. 2:38:50.600 --> 2:38:52.840 It has to be like that that has to die. 2:38:53.480 --> 2:38:55.920 Um But we're a lot closer to that than ending 2:38:56.040 --> 2:39:02.800 the idea of like capitalism U because they're at number 2:39:02.840 --> 2:39:06.160 one one, because there are capitalists, very capitalist countries that 2:39:06.280 --> 2:39:08.520 have that do not have a car culture that like 2:39:08.760 --> 2:39:10.959 stopped that and that actually like had one at one 2:39:10.959 --> 2:39:14.360 point and then reworked there. So that's that's and that 2:39:14.440 --> 2:39:17.200 would Yeah, that is a significant that's probably go that 2:39:17.240 --> 2:39:20.800 would probably lead to larger emissions reductions than any kind 2:39:20.800 --> 2:39:24.560 of carbon credit system could ever lead to. UM. I 2:39:24.600 --> 2:39:28.160 also and so yeah, I think that that's on an 2:39:28.160 --> 2:39:30.920 objective level, Yeah, that's it's smart to focus on stuff 2:39:30.920 --> 2:39:35.320 like that where you're all you are arguing for reducing growth, 2:39:35.959 --> 2:39:38.440 but you're also arguing and for like, hey, your life 2:39:38.480 --> 2:39:40.440 will be more pleasant if you live in a city 2:39:40.480 --> 2:39:43.200 where you can walk everywhere and you're not at risk 2:39:43.240 --> 2:39:46.160 of getting run down by you know, two ton trucks 2:39:46.200 --> 2:39:49.039 anytime you crossed the street and like you're not dealing 2:39:49.040 --> 2:39:52.000 with smog and pollution and horrible like hour and a 2:39:52.040 --> 2:39:56.440 half long communes on these crowded nightmare highways. Um. But 2:39:56.520 --> 2:40:01.920 it's also it's still incrementalists, you know, we we are 2:40:02.040 --> 2:40:04.440 we are talking here, we are kind of like walking 2:40:04.480 --> 2:40:09.240 through here, Um, all of the best incremental solutions and 2:40:09.240 --> 2:40:11.760 and what is the most realistic of those? Um. And 2:40:11.920 --> 2:40:13.640 I think that's fine. I think that's kind of where 2:40:13.680 --> 2:40:17.000 we have to be because that is what's most likely 2:40:17.080 --> 2:40:19.960 to actually happen to make the problem better. Um. But 2:40:20.000 --> 2:40:22.440 it is we have to acknowledge it is incremental. Like 2:40:22.480 --> 2:40:27.440 we're not We're not solving It would be very arrogant 2:40:27.440 --> 2:40:29.840 to say, like here's how we solve this problem once 2:40:29.840 --> 2:40:31.560 and for all, you know, I just want to I 2:40:31.560 --> 2:40:33.840 think sometimes when you talk about stuff like deep growth, 2:40:33.879 --> 2:40:36.280 you can get into this, you can kind of it 2:40:36.320 --> 2:40:38.480 can come across as if you're trying to like simplify, 2:40:38.560 --> 2:40:40.160 like and if we do this, like it will be 2:40:40.240 --> 2:40:42.480 perfectly Like now, this would be like the hardest thing. 2:40:42.800 --> 2:40:45.959 That's like saying we have to confix it by all 2:40:46.160 --> 2:40:50.840 doing a revolution. It's like it's it's not okay, okay, cool. Yeah, 2:40:50.879 --> 2:40:54.720 I mean yeah, but anyway, we have to do some 2:40:54.760 --> 2:40:56.720 ads and then we'll be back to finish up kind 2:40:56.720 --> 2:40:59.400 of their closing expectations on top twenty six and the 2:40:59.440 --> 2:41:04.480 other kind of things happening in the periphery. Um here's ads. Okay, 2:41:04.600 --> 2:41:06.920 we are back, and we're talking about kind of what 2:41:07.000 --> 2:41:09.800 happened towards the end of twenty So we already kind 2:41:09.800 --> 2:41:11.880 of discussed how the deal was made, what was in 2:41:11.920 --> 2:41:14.920 the deal, what things were talked about. Um, now we're 2:41:14.959 --> 2:41:16.760 kind of going to talk about, you know, the other 2:41:16.840 --> 2:41:21.280 kind of closing thoughts around it. Um in in In 2:41:21.280 --> 2:41:23.920 in the lead up to to to play six, the 2:41:24.000 --> 2:41:28.920 United States Special Presidential Climate Envoy John Kerry, who's like 2:41:29.120 --> 2:41:31.520 he's supposed to be like our climate guy. Um he 2:41:31.520 --> 2:41:33.320 he also said the goal of this something it was 2:41:33.400 --> 2:41:35.600 to it was to you know, hope that we can 2:41:35.680 --> 2:41:38.400 limit stuff to one point five degrees. And you know, 2:41:38.480 --> 2:41:40.560 he he called this the last best hope for the 2:41:40.600 --> 2:41:43.400 world to get its act together. But by the time 2:41:43.680 --> 2:41:46.640 Copter six came to the end, his language and attitude 2:41:46.800 --> 2:41:49.400 had kind of changed. Um After after two weeks of 2:41:49.400 --> 2:41:53.320 debate and negotiation, his his final remarks reflected the kind 2:41:53.360 --> 2:41:56.680 of the points we've been talking about how um and 2:41:56.680 --> 2:42:00.160 and and said like like the government energy policies curly 2:42:00.200 --> 2:42:03.400 in place around the world are projected to result in 2:42:03.440 --> 2:42:07.520 about two point seven degrees h celsius of warming above 2:42:07.600 --> 2:42:11.480 pre industrial levels, and government pledges to cut climate emissions 2:42:11.520 --> 2:42:14.520 would limit warming to two point four uh if they 2:42:14.520 --> 2:42:18.320 are met. So that's the the Again, we're just launching 2:42:18.400 --> 2:42:21.720 way past this like mythical fantasy of of one point 2:42:21.760 --> 2:42:25.440 five degrees. And the other scary things is that we're 2:42:25.440 --> 2:42:29.600 getting a lot a lot closer to large scale feedback loops. UH. 2:42:29.720 --> 2:42:32.039 Feedback loops are things like once we have reached a 2:42:32.040 --> 2:42:35.520 certain degree of warming, environmental effects will be triggered that 2:42:35.560 --> 2:42:39.840 will cascade and produce like exponential growth in warming. This 2:42:39.920 --> 2:42:43.360 is like a this it's not purely theoretical, but it 2:42:43.480 --> 2:42:46.280 is mostly stuff that we still probably can prevent, and 2:42:46.320 --> 2:42:48.520 we really need to get on it like a sap, 2:42:48.720 --> 2:42:51.160 because once these things start happening, they are very hard 2:42:51.160 --> 2:42:53.720 to reverse. One of the biggest ones that are that 2:42:53.760 --> 2:42:57.160 are already being affected is photosynthesis by plants on land, 2:42:57.600 --> 2:43:00.720 and how that is decreasing its ability to suck up 2:43:00.720 --> 2:43:05.680 carbon um about of our annual carbon emissions are removed 2:43:06.160 --> 2:43:09.400 by the air by photosynthesis um and the rest of 2:43:09.400 --> 2:43:13.360 which are dissolved in the ocean, causing ocean acidification or 2:43:13.440 --> 2:43:15.560 that you just hang around in the atmosphere, which causes 2:43:15.640 --> 2:43:20.360 you know, a bigger thermal blanket. So uh, photosynthesis has 2:43:20.360 --> 2:43:22.959 like a thermal maximum beyond which carbon can only be 2:43:23.040 --> 2:43:26.840 taken so much of it in and then the process 2:43:26.879 --> 2:43:30.320 which by plants give off carbon and water actually increases. 2:43:30.840 --> 2:43:33.680 And we are already at that point in a in 2:43:33.720 --> 2:43:36.440 a lot of places, and we are we are at 2:43:36.480 --> 2:43:39.000 that we we achieve the warming required to get to 2:43:39.040 --> 2:43:42.560 that point a few times throughout the past decade. So 2:43:42.959 --> 2:43:45.720 land based carbon uptake is projected to decline by nearly 2:43:45.760 --> 2:43:49.959 fift pcent as early as and and these effects have 2:43:50.040 --> 2:43:52.680 not been included in any of the you know published 2:43:52.720 --> 2:43:57.520 pathways leading to lower like lower degrees of warming um. 2:43:57.560 --> 2:43:59.959 And again this isn't this isn't just a speculative. Like 2:44:00.280 --> 2:44:02.480 the biggest example of this that we can like point 2:44:02.560 --> 2:44:05.000 to is like the Amazon rainforest. How that is now 2:44:05.120 --> 2:44:08.560 a net emitter because it is no longer sucking up 2:44:08.680 --> 2:44:11.400 enough carbon to offset the amount of carbon and actually 2:44:11.440 --> 2:44:15.560 shoots out, So we need to stop deforestation and keep 2:44:15.600 --> 2:44:19.920 planting more trees essentially because that that sucks. And also 2:44:20.000 --> 2:44:22.680 just as a general kind of indicator of the cascading 2:44:22.680 --> 2:44:26.160 effects that are happening and we are we're still on 2:44:26.200 --> 2:44:28.440 the path for kind of large, large scale disasters in 2:44:28.480 --> 2:44:32.440 a lot of places around the world. UM, the it's 2:44:32.879 --> 2:44:37.400 around nineteen of the Earth's land area is in pretty 2:44:37.440 --> 2:44:41.240 pretty dire risk on our current emission pathway of the 2:44:41.240 --> 2:44:45.640 Marshall Islands and all dol VI's UM, Vietnam, Southeast Asia, 2:44:45.680 --> 2:44:50.080 Middle East, parts of North Africa, and Central America. UM. Overall, 2:44:50.120 --> 2:44:53.439 around one third of the land humans occupied are predicted 2:44:53.520 --> 2:44:56.600 to either drowned by spicea level rise or became or 2:44:56.640 --> 2:44:58.440 become too hot for human life just by the end 2:44:58.440 --> 2:45:01.280 of this century alone. So that that will cause you know, 2:45:01.560 --> 2:45:04.680 my migration, panics and wars and all, like a whole 2:45:04.720 --> 2:45:07.320 bunch of bad things that we can't we can limit that, 2:45:07.360 --> 2:45:10.119 like that is something that we need to limit now, 2:45:10.560 --> 2:45:12.840 and if we don't, it's still it's still happening. So 2:45:13.120 --> 2:45:15.360 these are the other kind of things talked about at 2:45:15.400 --> 2:45:19.720 the end UM. So that was kind of copy as 2:45:19.720 --> 2:45:22.440 a whole um The one last thing I want to 2:45:22.480 --> 2:45:27.000 mention is just how evil Facebook is. Um so kind 2:45:27.040 --> 2:45:31.480 of kind of an aside, but um, Facebook vice president 2:45:31.480 --> 2:45:38.000 of Global Affairs UH talked um and about Facebook's efforts 2:45:38.000 --> 2:45:42.119 to combat climate misinformation. UM as the Glasgow somewhat began. 2:45:42.600 --> 2:45:45.560 But as this was happening, conservative media, let's like news 2:45:45.560 --> 2:45:48.640 Max or we're running ads on Facebook calling a glob 2:45:48.680 --> 2:45:52.000 global warming a hoax, gaining hundreds of thousands of views, 2:45:52.280 --> 2:45:54.400 stuff like you know Canadas so once and Daily Wire 2:45:54.520 --> 2:45:57.920 we're spreading climate misinformation. But and you know, as as 2:45:57.959 --> 2:46:01.640 Facebook is bragging about its ability to to combat misinformation 2:46:01.640 --> 2:46:05.920 around climate change. UM. The UK based think tank Influence Map, 2:46:06.080 --> 2:46:10.119 which identified misleading Facebook ads UH from several media outlets 2:46:10.320 --> 2:46:15.000 UM around Copy also found that fossil field companies and 2:46:15.200 --> 2:46:18.680 lobbying groups spent half a million dollars on political and 2:46:18.720 --> 2:46:22.959 social issue Facebook ads during the summit, resulting in over 2:46:23.080 --> 2:46:28.400 two million impressions, including content that promoted environmental effects under 2:46:28.480 --> 2:46:31.720 what we would call like green washing, stuff like you know, 2:46:32.000 --> 2:46:35.680 the American Petroleum Institute putting up putting an ad out 2:46:35.800 --> 2:46:38.480 over like a natural landscape as it like touts its 2:46:38.480 --> 2:46:41.960 efforts to tackle climate change. Um, so all all of 2:46:42.040 --> 2:46:44.560 that kind of stuff. So I just think it's really 2:46:44.640 --> 2:46:48.119 dumb because Facebook breaks about its ability to combat climate 2:46:48.160 --> 2:46:52.600 misinformation as its running ads saying climate changes the hoax 2:46:52.720 --> 2:46:56.600 and then doing generally green green washing is more common. 2:46:56.800 --> 2:47:01.000 But still it's frustrating. Um isn't like we talked about 2:47:01.000 --> 2:47:02.600 this in the Facebook it as it's a bastards that 2:47:02.680 --> 2:47:05.640 dropped recently. But like the number one spreader right now 2:47:05.640 --> 2:47:08.760 of climate disinformation on Facebook is bright Bart, which a 2:47:08.800 --> 2:47:10.680 lot of the Facebook papers have gone on too like 2:47:10.760 --> 2:47:14.880 the extreme lengths, Facebook executives went to keep bright Bart 2:47:14.920 --> 2:47:17.480 as one of their like trusted news partners and continue 2:47:17.520 --> 2:47:19.600 putting their stuff out to a huge audience because it 2:47:19.640 --> 2:47:22.879 goes very viral. It was good for engagement on the platform, 2:47:22.920 --> 2:47:25.920 and that's the decision. Facebook's like whatever they say, this 2:47:26.040 --> 2:47:28.520 is like when we when we're talking about car carbon credits, 2:47:28.520 --> 2:47:31.840 when we're talking about like the different proposed solutions. I'll 2:47:31.840 --> 2:47:33.480 do a bit of waffling because I don't want to 2:47:33.480 --> 2:47:36.240 come across as too certain about what the right way 2:47:36.280 --> 2:47:38.720 to go forward is. When it comes to how Facebook 2:47:38.760 --> 2:47:42.560 has handled climate disinformation, it's very black and white. Um, 2:47:42.600 --> 2:47:45.640 they enabled it for direct profit, and they talked about 2:47:45.680 --> 2:47:48.120 it and people within the company were like, Hey, we're 2:47:48.120 --> 2:47:52.840 deliberately enabling climate change misinformation in order to make more money. Um, 2:47:52.840 --> 2:47:56.360 it's a it's a it's a very easy case to make. Yeah. 2:47:56.400 --> 2:47:59.680 So that wraps up my uh my report back on 2:48:00.240 --> 2:48:02.520 twenty six I know a lot of a lot of stuff. 2:48:02.640 --> 2:48:04.800 Was like, there's there's a lot of headlines like before 2:48:04.879 --> 2:48:07.200 the somebody even ended, before the deal was even finalized. 2:48:07.240 --> 2:48:10.480 I was like, is a failure, which is like yes, 2:48:10.680 --> 2:48:13.280 But I think I think it is worth actually really 2:48:13.400 --> 2:48:15.760 learning what happens at these things, because I think we 2:48:15.800 --> 2:48:18.600 have this idea that they're like some like mythic secret 2:48:18.680 --> 2:48:21.360 gathering of people to discuss plans, and it's like no, 2:48:21.480 --> 2:48:24.240 like you can actually like see everything they're talking about, 2:48:24.280 --> 2:48:25.840 Like it's it's all out in the open, Like you 2:48:25.840 --> 2:48:28.560 can actually see what what the plans are. It doesn't 2:48:28.560 --> 2:48:31.240 need to be all shrouded in it. It doesn't need 2:48:31.280 --> 2:48:34.400 be like shrouded in mystery. So I just wanted to 2:48:34.400 --> 2:48:36.840 give people like a rundown on what the actual people 2:48:36.840 --> 2:48:39.200 in power, how they're discussing climate change, and what their 2:48:39.200 --> 2:48:42.640 expectations are and how you know, expectations have you know, 2:48:42.720 --> 2:48:45.840 the past five years have risen by basically a degree, right, 2:48:45.879 --> 2:48:48.960 because like we're like we can do one point five, 2:48:49.400 --> 2:48:51.880 and now we're like we can do two point five. 2:48:52.480 --> 2:48:54.640 So that is what we've done in five years. That's 2:48:54.680 --> 2:48:58.680 what's happened. And um that's what justifies the kind of 2:49:00.040 --> 2:49:03.199 blanket pessimism about anything coming from Cop twenty six, about 2:49:03.240 --> 2:49:07.279 anything being suggested by like a state actor and international organization, 2:49:07.400 --> 2:49:10.320 which is that like we've all watched the last twenty years, 2:49:10.959 --> 2:49:13.080 like they've said a lot of great stuff about what 2:49:13.120 --> 2:49:16.360 could work. It's like that Nature article about like Okay, well, 2:49:16.400 --> 2:49:18.400 like you've got a bunch of math here arguing about 2:49:18.440 --> 2:49:20.720 how it might work. But we've got the last twenty 2:49:20.840 --> 2:49:24.000 years of policies to sneve. But it probably won't right, 2:49:24.160 --> 2:49:26.360 but it's almost certainly not going to work, right, so 2:49:26.400 --> 2:49:30.400 we we can say, like, yeah, theoretically this might be helpful, 2:49:30.480 --> 2:49:34.080 but like, realistically nothing, everything you guys have argued about 2:49:34.120 --> 2:49:38.080 in the same way has been a miserable failure. Pretty much. Well, 2:49:38.440 --> 2:49:41.160 that that wraps it up for us. Uh. You can 2:49:41.200 --> 2:49:44.760 follow the show on Twitter and apparently Instagram. Um At 2:49:44.760 --> 2:49:48.480 happen here pod and Coolson Media. We got a new 2:49:48.480 --> 2:49:53.280 Coolson Media show dropping soon. Uh megacorp. That's pretty exciting. Yeah, 2:49:53.440 --> 2:49:56.080 check it out. It's about how we love Amazon and 2:49:56.120 --> 2:49:58.959 you should pay the money. I don't think that's what 2:49:58.959 --> 2:50:03.000 it's about, but any um. Yeah, so buy some carbon 2:50:03.040 --> 2:50:07.720 offsets from Amazon and with that. With that, we're closing 2:50:07.800 --> 2:50:17.240 the show. Give us ever attention. We need everything you've 2:50:17.240 --> 2:50:20.879 got Fast Waiting on Reparations. We beat the podcast two 2:50:21.000 --> 2:50:24.120 in every Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for the 2:50:24.160 --> 2:50:26.440 people because they got us in the worst way. From 2:50:26.440 --> 2:50:29.320 the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay to Kanya, from the 2:50:29.440 --> 2:50:32.600 left on Clay to what the neo kansee every Thursday 2:50:33.000 --> 2:50:35.160 the heavy conversation and to break us off with some 2:50:35.240 --> 2:50:39.120 break because we're waiting the repas. Listen to Waiting on 2:50:39.200 --> 2:50:42.360 Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or 2:50:42.400 --> 2:50:46.879 wherever you get your podcasts. The art world it is 2:50:47.000 --> 2:50:51.119 essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes are still 2:50:51.200 --> 2:50:54.119 hanging on people's walls. You know they don't even know 2:50:54.480 --> 2:50:57.560 or suspect that their faces. I'm out like Baldwin and 2:50:57.640 --> 2:51:01.120 this is a podcast about the set option, greed and 2:51:01.240 --> 2:51:08.160 forgery in the art world. You knew the painting was fake. UM. 2:51:08.400 --> 2:51:12.080 Listen to Art Fraud starting February one on the I 2:51:12.240 --> 2:51:17.040 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 2:51:30.520 --> 2:51:33.320 Welcome back to it could happen here. A show about 2:51:33.440 --> 2:51:35.680 how things are following up art at least generally, a 2:51:35.720 --> 2:51:38.480 show about how things are falling apart, um and how 2:51:38.520 --> 2:51:41.040 to you know, maybe maybe not falling apart that much. 2:51:41.080 --> 2:51:42.680 But we have a we have a little bit of 2:51:42.720 --> 2:51:45.680 a different episode for you today. A friend of a 2:51:45.720 --> 2:51:47.640 friend of mine reached out to me recently in the 2:51:47.680 --> 2:51:49.520 wake of a pair of episodes we did From Behind 2:51:49.560 --> 2:51:52.800 the Bastards on sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts of America, 2:51:52.879 --> 2:51:55.480 which was, if you're not aware, and endemic problem, with 2:51:56.240 --> 2:51:58.600 more than a hundred thousand victims having come forward in 2:51:58.600 --> 2:52:01.360 the last year alone. UM. And this is a case 2:52:01.400 --> 2:52:03.840 that kind of ties into that. Uh. It's it's the 2:52:03.879 --> 2:52:07.800 case of a young man, UM who committed murder and 2:52:07.840 --> 2:52:10.920 a young man who was also UM a victim of 2:52:11.520 --> 2:52:13.520 a terrible series of crime. So I wanted to kind 2:52:13.520 --> 2:52:15.600 of shine a little bit of light on the case 2:52:15.640 --> 2:52:18.520 of Heath Stocks today. UM. And to help me do 2:52:18.560 --> 2:52:21.200 that is Mr Michael Kaiser. Michael, welcome to the show, 2:52:22.160 --> 2:52:25.400 Good afternoon, Thanks for having me. Michael. Would you like 2:52:25.440 --> 2:52:28.160 to introduce kind of your affiliation with this case before 2:52:28.200 --> 2:52:31.879 we go over the broad strokes of it? Sure? Um, again, 2:52:31.959 --> 2:52:34.600 my name is Michael Kaiser. I'm a criminal defense attorney 2:52:34.600 --> 2:52:38.800 with the Lastter and Cassinelli firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. Um. 2:52:38.840 --> 2:52:43.280 This case started in the nineties and I was I'm 2:52:43.320 --> 2:52:45.760 thirty two, so I was not practicing. Then I came 2:52:45.840 --> 2:52:49.920 into this case in the last two years after Heath 2:52:50.000 --> 2:52:54.120 has already I've been sentenced to three life sentences, and 2:52:54.360 --> 2:52:58.359 I assisted him in filing a petition for a commutation 2:52:58.480 --> 2:53:01.880 asking for the Governor of Arkansas to reduce those sentences 2:53:01.920 --> 2:53:03.879 to a term of years and giving him a chance 2:53:03.920 --> 2:53:06.960 of parole while he is still alive. And and can 2:53:07.000 --> 2:53:09.680 we uh, let's go over kind of what happened in 2:53:09.720 --> 2:53:12.640 this case the basics, because this is this is a 2:53:12.760 --> 2:53:16.199 really sad story, um, and it's one of those things 2:53:16.280 --> 2:53:20.320 where there's there's not a lot of I think, easy answers. 2:53:20.360 --> 2:53:22.199 But yeah, let's let's talk about sort of the broad 2:53:22.200 --> 2:53:24.200 strokes of what happened, and then we can drill into 2:53:24.440 --> 2:53:27.680 what what you're trying to achieve here. Sure, so the 2:53:27.720 --> 2:53:33.160 broad strokes are back in UM. When Heath was a 2:53:33.200 --> 2:53:38.680 young man UM just twenty years old, UM, he was 2:53:38.800 --> 2:53:43.240 arrested and charged with killing his entire immediate family, both 2:53:43.280 --> 2:53:47.600 his mother, father, UM, and his younger sister. He was 2:53:48.320 --> 2:53:54.160 quickly identified as the primary suspect, questioned, confessed, arrested, charged, 2:53:54.280 --> 2:53:57.760 and within I believe six months, had pleaded guilty to 2:53:57.879 --> 2:54:01.040 all three capital murders and receive a sentence of life 2:54:01.959 --> 2:54:04.840 without parole for each each one of those, for a 2:54:04.840 --> 2:54:10.400 total of three life sentences. UM. Shortly after he was convicted, UM, 2:54:10.400 --> 2:54:13.400 it came to light that his longtime boy scout scout 2:54:13.440 --> 2:54:18.640 Master Jack Walls had been molesting Heats since he was 2:54:18.720 --> 2:54:22.440 around age nine or ten. UM that it was a 2:54:22.560 --> 2:54:25.560 serial sort of abuse, that Heat, that Heath was not 2:54:25.680 --> 2:54:29.400 the only one. UM, that it was particularly brutal, and 2:54:29.440 --> 2:54:35.680 that his abuse didn't just involve you know, sexual acts. UM. 2:54:35.920 --> 2:54:38.400 It was kind of a long term. I hate to 2:54:38.440 --> 2:54:40.520 use the term brainwashing, but a lot of people have 2:54:40.879 --> 2:54:44.080 about what he did to those boys. UM. Heats is 2:54:44.080 --> 2:54:47.160 not the only life that was ruined. Heath's family is 2:54:47.200 --> 2:54:50.200 not the only families lives who were ruined. UM. But 2:54:50.320 --> 2:54:54.720 Heats is unfortunately the most extreme case, UM, where where 2:54:54.760 --> 2:54:58.160 he he ultimately committed a crime against against his family. 2:54:58.640 --> 2:55:01.120 We'll get into the cumstances in a second. I just 2:55:01.120 --> 2:55:02.760 want to add a little bit of clarification that the 2:55:02.840 --> 2:55:05.480 scout master, we're looking at between a hundred and a 2:55:05.520 --> 2:55:08.480 hundred and fifty victims kind of conservatively based on what 2:55:08.520 --> 2:55:11.959 I've been reading. Yes, yeah, and it's it's some of 2:55:12.320 --> 2:55:15.120 I mean, it's so this guy. Some of it's the 2:55:15.120 --> 2:55:16.880 stuff that you heard in a lot of these other cases. 2:55:16.920 --> 2:55:18.640 Some of it is is very unique to this guy. 2:55:18.680 --> 2:55:22.080 But he would basically he would have people over, kids 2:55:22.160 --> 2:55:25.160 over camping on his land. UM, he would take them shooting, 2:55:25.200 --> 2:55:28.680 he worked for an ammunition company. UM, he would molest them. 2:55:28.680 --> 2:55:31.920 He would also like purchase prostitutes for them. And it 2:55:32.080 --> 2:55:35.039 was this, UM, I mean a lot of of really 2:55:35.840 --> 2:55:37.959 some of the worst abuse that I've read about in 2:55:38.040 --> 2:55:42.000 connection to any of these these boy scouts sexual abuse cases. UM. 2:55:42.040 --> 2:55:44.760 It's it's pretty harrowing stuff when you read the stories 2:55:44.800 --> 2:55:47.600 of other kids, um, who were kind of in the 2:55:47.640 --> 2:55:52.640 same position that Heath was. Yeah, Unfortunately you're You're correct. 2:55:52.720 --> 2:55:55.360 It's you know, every time you think this can't get worse, 2:55:55.480 --> 2:55:58.160 or this case is so extreme that you find some 2:55:58.200 --> 2:56:03.000 other element that's more offensive, are appalling more victims, more, 2:56:03.000 --> 2:56:07.000 more families ruined down the line, even um today thirty 2:56:07.080 --> 2:56:12.640 forty years fifty years later, M. Yeah, so how does 2:56:12.720 --> 2:56:15.240 the because I mean, one of the things about this 2:56:15.360 --> 2:56:18.960 is this is a pretty the initial crime here is 2:56:19.000 --> 2:56:22.400 pretty horrific. Um. And I think it's it's one of 2:56:22.440 --> 2:56:24.879 those things where it is hard to have a lot 2:56:24.920 --> 2:56:27.680 of sympathy for Heath until you kind of learn about 2:56:28.520 --> 2:56:32.400 what this guy like, his his his role in the crime, 2:56:32.400 --> 2:56:35.400 because it was not just a case of, um, you know, 2:56:35.400 --> 2:56:37.760 a kid committing murder. It was a case of a 2:56:37.840 --> 2:56:43.000 kid being um, very deliberately pushed into committing murder. And 2:56:43.280 --> 2:56:46.760 potentially I think that there's the allegations being made her 2:56:46.800 --> 2:56:52.280 that he was he directly helped with it as well. Yes, um, 2:56:52.360 --> 2:56:55.280 so you know, at first glance, yeah, it looks it 2:56:55.280 --> 2:56:58.520 looks really bad for Heath, um. But over the years, um, 2:56:58.600 --> 2:57:01.560 what we have learned is that what what really happened 2:57:02.120 --> 2:57:05.720 is that Heath had been serially abused sexually, physically, emotionally, 2:57:05.720 --> 2:57:08.520 and otherwise by Jack for a period of ten plus years. 2:57:09.840 --> 2:57:14.360 His mother discovers the abuse and discusses it with her, 2:57:14.440 --> 2:57:20.240 her pastor another religious counselor UH. Heath informs Jack that 2:57:20.480 --> 2:57:23.920 you know his mother is aware, and and Jack instructs 2:57:23.959 --> 2:57:27.440 Heath to do as he's been taught, UM and and 2:57:27.520 --> 2:57:32.800 to kill the problem. UM. Jack was never convicted with 2:57:32.840 --> 2:57:37.680 anything associated with the death of of the Stocks family. UM. However, 2:57:38.200 --> 2:57:42.200 his first set of life sentences for the many assaults 2:57:42.200 --> 2:57:45.200 that he was convicted of, UM, when they were reversed, 2:57:45.240 --> 2:57:47.520 it was because the judge in that in that sentencing 2:57:47.560 --> 2:57:49.720 hearing said, you know that the death of the Stocks 2:57:49.720 --> 2:57:52.400 family is also on your hands. And because he hadn't 2:57:52.440 --> 2:57:55.119 been formally convicted of that, he actually had his original 2:57:55.160 --> 2:57:59.400 life sentences reversed. Every sentencing he got essentially the same sentence, 2:57:59.560 --> 2:58:03.200 multiple life sentences in additional years. UM. But yes, there 2:58:03.280 --> 2:58:07.480 there's there is a connection. UM. It wasn't known at 2:58:07.480 --> 2:58:10.560 the time, or at least it wasn't publicized, and if 2:58:10.600 --> 2:58:12.600 if it had been, I think the results of his 2:58:12.800 --> 2:58:14.560 case would be very different. I don't think you and 2:58:14.600 --> 2:58:17.560 I would be speaking right now. Yeah. And it's I mean, 2:58:17.600 --> 2:58:21.400 obviously like this is this is this is a thoroughly 2:58:21.760 --> 2:58:26.879 horrible situation. Um. And when somebody commits three murders, I 2:58:26.879 --> 2:58:29.360 think even people who are very critical of the criminal 2:58:29.440 --> 2:58:32.320 justice system should agree that, like, something needs to be done. 2:58:32.959 --> 2:58:37.320 But I it just seems so unfair to lock this 2:58:37.440 --> 2:58:40.600 kit up for his entire life without kind of and 2:58:40.600 --> 2:58:43.960 and and acting as if this was just a thing 2:58:44.560 --> 2:58:46.560 he did on his own, rather than kind of the 2:58:46.600 --> 2:58:50.440 result of a pretty horrific I mean, one of the 2:58:50.480 --> 2:58:53.800 most one of the most horrific patterns of abuse and 2:58:53.840 --> 2:58:57.879 exploitation of a of a child that I can imagine. UM. 2:58:57.920 --> 2:59:01.119 And I don't know, I don't know what would actually 2:59:01.160 --> 2:59:05.680 like help other than getting him into a situation where 2:59:05.680 --> 2:59:07.640 he's not spending the rest of his life in a 2:59:07.680 --> 2:59:09.720 prison cell. Like I don't know what the long term 2:59:09.800 --> 2:59:14.080 for him looks like in terms of rebuilding this guy's 2:59:14.120 --> 2:59:16.959 potential to have a life, but it certainly starts with 2:59:17.520 --> 2:59:19.800 him not spending the rest of that life in a 2:59:19.879 --> 2:59:24.360 jail cell. The problem we've encountered, UM with Heat's case 2:59:24.720 --> 2:59:27.520 is the parole board and many just even just people 2:59:27.600 --> 2:59:31.240 that encounter the case wonder why would he attack and 2:59:31.360 --> 2:59:34.760 kill you know, his immediate family rather than his abuser. 2:59:35.600 --> 2:59:38.440 And in the twenty five plus years or in the 2:59:39.560 --> 2:59:43.200 years or so since this happened, I mean juvenile that 2:59:43.360 --> 2:59:46.879 our understanding of the juvenile brain neurocycle psychology in general 2:59:47.560 --> 2:59:51.680 UM has has come leap leaps and bounds. And so 2:59:51.720 --> 2:59:55.480 we know that a serially abused child has brain damage 2:59:56.040 --> 2:59:59.720 from really about the time that that starts happening. And 2:59:59.760 --> 3:00:03.800 so and heats crazy world, and we do have this 3:00:03.920 --> 3:00:09.240 in our clemency application. We've had UM abuse specialists evaluate 3:00:09.320 --> 3:00:13.560 Heath and and see how he you know, his actions 3:00:13.640 --> 3:00:17.440 conformed to our current understanding. Within the crazy world that 3:00:17.520 --> 3:00:21.840 he lived in. He actually was making dare I say, 3:00:21.879 --> 3:00:26.400 the reasonable decision. So Jack had demonstrated numerous times over 3:00:26.440 --> 3:00:29.920 the years he has physical, sexual, and and even control 3:00:29.959 --> 3:00:32.039 over heats life. He can end it at any time. 3:00:32.160 --> 3:00:36.039 He explicitly and implicitly threatens the boys all the time. 3:00:36.120 --> 3:00:39.800 He's got weapons everywhere, He's a Vietnam veteran. He brings 3:00:39.840 --> 3:00:41.920 them out to his property, shows them how to shoot, 3:00:41.959 --> 3:00:45.000 shows them what he will do to those who you know, 3:00:45.280 --> 3:00:48.680 go against him. UM. So, within Heat's world, he actually 3:00:48.760 --> 3:00:54.040 made a somewhat reasonable decision. He Uh, the bigger threat 3:00:54.120 --> 3:00:57.160 was was Jack. Um. He can't kill Jack, so he 3:00:57.280 --> 3:00:59.760 has to do the thing to appease Jack to avoid 3:00:59.840 --> 3:01:04.400 the more severe abuse. That's oversimplifying it, but that's something 3:01:04.440 --> 3:01:06.480 that I don't think we would have been able to 3:01:06.560 --> 3:01:09.959 conceptualize back in the nineties. You had the element of 3:01:10.600 --> 3:01:13.640 there's it's it's mail on mail, and we're talking about 3:01:13.640 --> 3:01:17.360 a very small rural community, UM in central Arkansas, and 3:01:17.440 --> 3:01:21.200 that element cannot be overlooked at all as well. That 3:01:21.320 --> 3:01:23.200 was a huge thing that Jack was counting on to 3:01:23.280 --> 3:01:27.080 keep these boys silent. UM. He explicitly told them, if 3:01:27.160 --> 3:01:30.400 you tell what happened to you, they're going to think 3:01:30.440 --> 3:01:35.920 that you are homosexual and a liar. So there's just 3:01:36.720 --> 3:01:40.040 there's there's just so many horrible things. UM. In this case, 3:01:40.640 --> 3:01:44.480 Jack had decades of experience doing this, and unfortunately, because 3:01:44.480 --> 3:01:46.480 of his position in the community, the son of a 3:01:46.520 --> 3:01:51.280 prominent judge, UM, the long time scout master, the community's 3:01:51.840 --> 3:01:55.360 man of the Year multiple times, UM, he had access 3:01:55.480 --> 3:01:59.040 to dozens and dozens of boys, in fact, entire generations 3:01:59.200 --> 3:02:02.440 of these of these voice in Lono County. Um Heat's 3:02:02.480 --> 3:02:05.720 case is just one of many. Unfortunately, it's the most 3:02:05.720 --> 3:02:07.879 extreme case, and it's kind of tests the balance of 3:02:07.920 --> 3:02:12.760 our mercy. But the kid that discovered Jack, while he's 3:02:12.760 --> 3:02:16.800 a hero, ultimately he killed himself and he's not the 3:02:16.879 --> 3:02:19.960 only one. So unfortunately the Stocks family are not the 3:02:20.000 --> 3:02:23.080 only people who lost their lives and not the only 3:02:23.080 --> 3:02:26.920 people whose lives, just like he's, were completely destroyed by 3:02:27.000 --> 3:02:30.400 Jack Walls. Yeah, and this is this is an important 3:02:30.440 --> 3:02:32.960 thing to understand because when we're talking about kind of 3:02:33.000 --> 3:02:36.280 the lingering impacts of childhood sexual abuse, it can take 3:02:36.280 --> 3:02:40.160 a wide variety of forms and when we like but 3:02:40.160 --> 3:02:42.000 but it but it is important to understand that the 3:02:42.360 --> 3:02:45.920 damage it can do goes so much further beyond like 3:02:45.959 --> 3:02:49.040 the physical damage done by the abuse, like these are 3:02:49.560 --> 3:02:52.680 your your brain is still forming and growing when you're 3:02:52.680 --> 3:02:56.760 that young, and he this is one manifestation of kind 3:02:56.760 --> 3:02:59.840 of what can happen um at the more extreme ended 3:03:00.000 --> 3:03:02.720 adly um as as the result like this is why 3:03:02.720 --> 3:03:05.080 it's such a heinous crime to abuse a child in 3:03:05.160 --> 3:03:07.879 this way, And it's just I don't know, like you're right, 3:03:07.920 --> 3:03:11.760 it is it it tests the limit of um people's 3:03:11.800 --> 3:03:15.360 capacity for I don't know, forgiveness seems like the wrong word, 3:03:15.400 --> 3:03:18.840 but like clemency. You know, this again is a pretty 3:03:18.959 --> 3:03:22.680 heinous crime. Um. But at the same time, I can't 3:03:22.680 --> 3:03:27.840 bring myself to think that what he endured leading up 3:03:27.879 --> 3:03:30.520 to this shouldn't have an impact on what happens to 3:03:30.600 --> 3:03:34.039 him afterwards, right, Like it does. It does reduce his 3:03:34.040 --> 3:03:36.800 his complicity in this, And I just feel it feels 3:03:36.840 --> 3:03:40.119 so wrong to say that, like, well, he should spend 3:03:40.120 --> 3:03:44.440 the rest of his life behind bars, Like that's just 3:03:44.480 --> 3:03:48.440 not I can't imagine anything could help, Like, I can't 3:03:48.440 --> 3:03:50.960 imagine that could help in any way. Um, just writing 3:03:50.959 --> 3:03:54.760 this this person off forever. I don't know. It just is, 3:03:54.920 --> 3:03:57.840 it's it's fucked. What are the next steps for y'all, 3:03:57.879 --> 3:04:01.360 for your for the defense team. So at this point, 3:04:01.400 --> 3:04:05.880 we've already filed a petition, uh, with the Arkansas Governor 3:04:05.920 --> 3:04:10.000 requesting a commutation. That's not a pardon, that's not something 3:04:10.080 --> 3:04:12.800 saying say that Heath is innocent. We're asking the governor 3:04:12.840 --> 3:04:16.160 to modify his sentences to a term of years forty 3:04:16.240 --> 3:04:20.359 years in each case, to be served concurrently, so in effect, 3:04:20.400 --> 3:04:26.400 one single sentence of forty years. Yeah. Uh, well, in Arkansas, 3:04:26.480 --> 3:04:29.360 you're actually at the time he was convicted, he'd be 3:04:29.360 --> 3:04:32.640 parole eligible at se. So that's twenty eight years. That's 3:04:32.680 --> 3:04:34.960 not a guarantee of parole. That is just what it means, 3:04:35.000 --> 3:04:38.280 parole eligibility. So that's what we've asked for. UM. We 3:04:38.400 --> 3:04:41.720 think his institutional record speaks for itself. And if and 3:04:41.720 --> 3:04:45.320 when he is a candidate for parole, he hopefully uh 3:04:45.800 --> 3:04:49.000 will make pearole. He's he's done everything within his power 3:04:49.520 --> 3:04:53.840 UM to do so. UM. If this fails, it's right now. UH. 3:04:54.240 --> 3:04:56.920 We in Arkansas at first goes to the parole Board, 3:04:57.240 --> 3:05:00.240 who makes a non binding recommendation to the governor. They 3:05:00.240 --> 3:05:05.200 have recommended that the governor deny it. UM, which is unfortunate, 3:05:05.240 --> 3:05:08.520 but again it's not binding. UM. The governor now has 3:05:08.640 --> 3:05:12.800 I believe until February or March of two to issue 3:05:12.920 --> 3:05:17.199 his decision. UM. He has not yet. UM. We have 3:05:17.600 --> 3:05:20.160 requested a sit down with the governor. I don't know 3:05:20.200 --> 3:05:22.720 if we'll actually sit down with Governor Asa Hutchinson. We 3:05:22.760 --> 3:05:26.440 will sit down with his criminal Justice coordinator. UM. We're 3:05:26.480 --> 3:05:29.640 thankful and lucky to have the support of all of 3:05:29.680 --> 3:05:36.119 the remaining victims family members, so both sides of Heat's family. UM, 3:05:36.240 --> 3:05:39.080 you know we have we have extensive support UM, it 3:05:39.160 --> 3:05:42.640 wasn't they They A lot of them had to work 3:05:42.640 --> 3:05:44.600 to get to this point, a lot of them had 3:05:44.600 --> 3:05:47.680 to understand the true impact of the abuse. But at 3:05:47.680 --> 3:05:50.480 this point, UM, we have extensive support from both sides 3:05:50.480 --> 3:05:55.160 of his family. UM. As far as we know, there 3:05:55.160 --> 3:05:59.920 are no objections to his commutation application from from victim 3:06:00.120 --> 3:06:02.640 family members. The only ones that there have been are 3:06:02.680 --> 3:06:06.040 from the sentencing judge or from the sentencing court. It's 3:06:06.040 --> 3:06:08.400 actually not the same judge and the sentencing or the 3:06:08.440 --> 3:06:12.360 prosecutor from that from that county, again a different person, um, 3:06:12.400 --> 3:06:16.959 but they felt the need to object. I should this fail, 3:06:17.320 --> 3:06:22.720 we will seek additional post conviction remedies um. Uh. In Arkansas, 3:06:22.800 --> 3:06:25.320 we have something called a petition for writ of ericorum 3:06:25.400 --> 3:06:28.560 nobis Um. You can file it. You have to ask 3:06:28.600 --> 3:06:30.560 the Supreme Court, Hey, is it okay if I file 3:06:30.600 --> 3:06:32.920 a petition back in the trial court asking them to 3:06:32.959 --> 3:06:37.360 consider something that if we had known back in ninety eight, 3:06:37.720 --> 3:06:40.760 would have affected the outcome of the litigation. In this case, 3:06:41.160 --> 3:06:45.440 we would point to the we we've had heath evaluated. UM. 3:06:45.480 --> 3:06:49.440 It will point to that neuropsychological evaluation UM as as 3:06:49.520 --> 3:06:54.720 new evidence. UM. We couldn't fully make a connection at 3:06:54.720 --> 3:06:58.000 the time between his abuse and the offense to answer 3:06:58.080 --> 3:07:02.439 that question why he killed his family rather than his abuser. 3:07:02.879 --> 3:07:06.279 We now can and so that's what we're going to allege, 3:07:06.280 --> 3:07:08.920 is that is that new evidence. Um whether the court 3:07:09.560 --> 3:07:12.640 will will find that it is remains to be seen. 3:07:12.720 --> 3:07:15.320 When he tried this on his own about five years ago, 3:07:15.360 --> 3:07:18.440 the court denied it. He alleged the new evidence was 3:07:19.920 --> 3:07:22.400 the fact of the long term sexual abuse of him 3:07:22.400 --> 3:07:24.480 by Jack Walls, and the court in a in an 3:07:24.480 --> 3:07:29.080 opinion that really does not um, you know, shows shows 3:07:29.080 --> 3:07:32.080 the lack of understanding of long term juvenile sexual abuse 3:07:32.280 --> 3:07:35.560 found that well though you personally were aware of all 3:07:35.600 --> 3:07:37.680 of that in your own mind because it had happened 3:07:37.680 --> 3:07:40.360 to you, So that was not new evidence. And I mean, 3:07:40.560 --> 3:07:44.400 we know that the average male who makes this sort 3:07:44.400 --> 3:07:49.720 of disclosure it occurs deep into adulthood. So it's just 3:07:50.240 --> 3:07:53.600 at every level of the system. Even today, we're still 3:07:53.720 --> 3:07:57.480 feeling the effects of kind of that old school mentality 3:07:57.520 --> 3:08:01.760 about about this. And it's a fortunately we could talk 3:08:01.800 --> 3:08:04.800 about kind of the the car serile state and this 3:08:04.879 --> 3:08:09.600 idea that like penalty is the way to respond to 3:08:09.640 --> 3:08:11.720 any kind of crime. But even if you believe that, 3:08:11.760 --> 3:08:14.920 even if you believe that, like you have to punish 3:08:15.040 --> 3:08:19.480 people with incarceration when they commit crimes. He's done twenty 3:08:19.480 --> 3:08:24.480 five years, Like, that's no. No one is discussing the 3:08:24.520 --> 3:08:27.640 possibility of Heath not being punished for the murder, you know, 3:08:27.680 --> 3:08:31.160 because it's he has been not just with time behind bars, 3:08:31.200 --> 3:08:33.880 but the fact that his family's gone. The idea that 3:08:33.920 --> 3:08:37.480 the state could do anything that's worse to him than 3:08:37.840 --> 3:08:40.720 than the scout master did, to be honest, is kind 3:08:40.720 --> 3:08:45.160 of absurd in my head. But um, where is there 3:08:45.160 --> 3:08:49.080 anything that like I don't know, I'm trying to determine, 3:08:49.120 --> 3:08:51.720 like what can be done to help in this situation? 3:08:51.800 --> 3:08:54.880 Is there any way people can actually help outside of 3:08:54.920 --> 3:08:57.160 like you and the team that's that's working to try 3:08:57.160 --> 3:09:02.360 and sit down with the governor? Yeah? Um, I mean 3:09:02.640 --> 3:09:06.440 public support is is wonderful. The more people that are 3:09:06.480 --> 3:09:09.320 pointing out the problems than Heath's case and with his 3:09:09.400 --> 3:09:12.760 sentences and that are reaching out to the governor, UM, 3:09:12.800 --> 3:09:16.959 the better we think our chances are. UM. I apologize, 3:09:16.959 --> 3:09:19.039 I don't have the email address on me, but the 3:09:19.080 --> 3:09:23.879 governor has several publicly accessible UM accounts, as does his 3:09:23.920 --> 3:09:28.520 criminal Justice coordinator, even just getting on Facebook, UM and 3:09:28.520 --> 3:09:31.920 and bringing it up. UM. There's a Facebook account managed 3:09:31.920 --> 3:09:35.000 by one of Heath's friends, UM in Florida called at 3:09:35.040 --> 3:09:39.039 Hope for heat Stocks. UM. It's a there's also a website. 3:09:39.640 --> 3:09:42.280 I think it's Hope for heat Stocks dot info. It's 3:09:42.360 --> 3:09:45.600 probably the most extensive trove of resources in this case. 3:09:45.640 --> 3:09:48.640 It has almost all original documents. It's where I still 3:09:48.680 --> 3:09:51.640 go to access things when I need them, even though 3:09:51.720 --> 3:09:55.000 you know, I am his attorney. So there's a lot 3:09:55.240 --> 3:09:57.680 out there. There's a lot of ways to support the cause, 3:09:58.480 --> 3:10:01.400 even just telling other people about out it. UM. We 3:10:01.480 --> 3:10:09.119 do have a documentary in the works. UM. I actually 3:10:09.560 --> 3:10:11.560 don't think it has a producer at this point, but 3:10:11.600 --> 3:10:15.520 we're hopeful to have something out in early to make Feith, 3:10:15.680 --> 3:10:18.280 to make Jack, to make this case more of a 3:10:18.320 --> 3:10:22.040 household name. UM. The hopes that you know, if any 3:10:22.080 --> 3:10:25.720 sort of UM, you know, if there's more support out there, 3:10:25.760 --> 3:10:29.440 more pressure on the governor, it will increase the odds 3:10:29.480 --> 3:10:31.959 that that will do the right thing here. Yeah. I mean, 3:10:32.000 --> 3:10:35.160 this shouldn't be a political issue. There shouldn't be a 3:10:35.240 --> 3:10:37.400 left or right thing, Like everyone should be able to 3:10:37.440 --> 3:10:42.080 see this is uh this is the result of abuse, 3:10:42.280 --> 3:10:46.600 and that should have an impact on the what we 3:10:46.640 --> 3:10:49.879 actually what's actually what our society actually does to this 3:10:50.000 --> 3:10:52.600 kid in the wake of the crime. Perhaps it's like 3:10:52.680 --> 3:10:57.480 foolish to hope for some sort of rationality as regards 3:10:57.680 --> 3:11:00.240 a case like this, but I would hope that we 3:11:00.320 --> 3:11:04.960 could be rational about this and everyone agree, yes, this 3:11:05.040 --> 3:11:09.680 kid deserves something more than what he's gotten. UM. I 3:11:09.680 --> 3:11:15.000 don't know. It's it's a bleak one though, that's putting 3:11:15.000 --> 3:11:18.320 it lightly. New York recently recently passed a law that 3:11:18.400 --> 3:11:21.080 kind of acknowledged kind of where you're at with it 3:11:21.560 --> 3:11:25.360 for victims of domestic or sexual abuse who then committed 3:11:25.360 --> 3:11:30.280 crimes um that weren't necessarily during the course of that 3:11:30.400 --> 3:11:33.840 specific abuse UM. And it allowed people like Heath to 3:11:34.000 --> 3:11:39.280 apply for resentencing if they met certain statutory qualifications um 3:11:39.400 --> 3:11:42.959 for things that mitigated their crime, didn't justify it. But 3:11:43.040 --> 3:11:46.440 that didn't come out originally. Unfortunately, in Arkansas, we don't 3:11:46.480 --> 3:11:49.160 have a similar process. The only thing we have available 3:11:49.240 --> 3:11:52.920 is this clemency commutation process. And unfortunately, as you said, 3:11:52.920 --> 3:11:55.160 it should be a political but it's not. It's it's 3:11:55.160 --> 3:11:59.160 explicitly political. The Parole Board are all appointees by our governor, 3:11:59.520 --> 3:12:02.000 the governor or as an elected official. There's a reason 3:12:02.040 --> 3:12:04.760 we filed it in the last year of his last 3:12:04.879 --> 3:12:07.560 term in Arkansas. He has term limited, so we're trying 3:12:07.600 --> 3:12:10.400 to get him at a point where he's as free 3:12:10.480 --> 3:12:14.000 from the politics to do what he actually thinks is correct. 3:12:14.120 --> 3:12:19.000 But to think that politics will be removed is I mean, yeah, 3:12:19.160 --> 3:12:21.960 it never is. No, this is this is the United 3:12:22.000 --> 3:12:26.200 States inies. You know, politics is is a factor here, 3:12:26.720 --> 3:12:29.800 and there's a deeply divisive case in the state and 3:12:30.000 --> 3:12:33.879 especially in Lono County. Well, it's hard I can imagine 3:12:33.879 --> 3:12:36.760 it being hard to talk with people about just because again, 3:12:36.800 --> 3:12:39.120 the nature of the crime is is horrific. And so 3:12:39.160 --> 3:12:41.440 if you talk about like, well, we we think this 3:12:41.480 --> 3:12:44.520 guy should have another chance at life, and you're like, well, 3:12:44.520 --> 3:12:48.320 but he killed three people, he killed his sister, and yes, 3:12:48.400 --> 3:12:50.920 that is the case, but that's not the only thing 3:12:50.959 --> 3:12:54.520 going down here. And you just have to I think, 3:12:54.560 --> 3:12:56.480 if you're if you're at all, even if you're not 3:12:56.680 --> 3:12:59.120 coming at this from kind of politically where I am 3:12:59.200 --> 3:13:02.960 in regarding you know, the car serial state, you have 3:13:03.000 --> 3:13:06.960 to acknowledge that, like, this is not a race Heath's cribes. 3:13:07.080 --> 3:13:09.640 But Heath's cribs were also the result of not just 3:13:09.840 --> 3:13:12.760 the scout master's abuse, but of a number of failures 3:13:12.800 --> 3:13:15.280 on a on a wide level in our society that 3:13:15.360 --> 3:13:19.440 allowed that abuse to occur. Um And so, I don't know, 3:13:19.520 --> 3:13:23.000 I I feel like there's a lot of reasons why 3:13:23.040 --> 3:13:26.600 it behooves us to give this kid another chance. I 3:13:26.600 --> 3:13:29.840 don't know. That doesn't make it easier to convince anyone else, 3:13:29.959 --> 3:13:33.680 But yeah, well, how would this case play out if 3:13:33.720 --> 3:13:38.840 it happened today versus in even in a more rural 3:13:38.879 --> 3:13:41.400 part of Arkansas. I think our understanding of several of 3:13:41.440 --> 3:13:45.840 the issues here, it is so has come so far 3:13:46.480 --> 3:13:48.760 that my hope is Heath would have received a term 3:13:48.800 --> 3:13:52.400 of years rather than being charged with capital murder. They 3:13:52.760 --> 3:13:55.440 originally we're seeking the death penalty, and he made a 3:13:55.480 --> 3:13:58.560 deal for multiple life sentences, both as someone under twenty 3:13:58.560 --> 3:14:01.440 one and as a victim of long term sexual abuse. 3:14:01.520 --> 3:14:04.400 I would like to think that if this happened today, 3:14:04.520 --> 3:14:07.840 even in that county, what we're asking for is something 3:14:07.879 --> 3:14:12.120 close to what what would what would happen? I hope, 3:14:12.840 --> 3:14:16.040 I would hope so that that's why, again, we didn't 3:14:16.040 --> 3:14:18.520 ask for a pardon. We didn't ask let him out today. 3:14:18.640 --> 3:14:21.360 We said let him earn it, let him still feel 3:14:21.400 --> 3:14:23.760 the weight of of what he has done, but give 3:14:23.840 --> 3:14:25.959 him that light at the end of the tunnel. Because 3:14:26.440 --> 3:14:29.440 you know, there is no one in the Arkansas Department 3:14:29.440 --> 3:14:34.320 of Correction, even with the There's just not a victim 3:14:34.360 --> 3:14:36.480 like him there, and there's not someone who who could 3:14:36.480 --> 3:14:39.760 be an advocate for victims like him were he to 3:14:39.800 --> 3:14:44.360 be released. So yep, well, all right, Michael, is there 3:14:44.360 --> 3:14:46.760 anything else you wanted to get into with this or 3:14:47.480 --> 3:14:50.400 any other ways people might be able to help check 3:14:50.400 --> 3:14:56.240 out the website again, post on social media. Um. Uh. 3:14:56.440 --> 3:14:58.640 The one thing I think we didn't focus on here 3:14:58.720 --> 3:15:02.720 is heat himself. Um. Heath is a deeply spiritual individual. 3:15:02.879 --> 3:15:05.800 He's someone who lives with this on his conscious almost 3:15:05.840 --> 3:15:09.560 every moment of the day. This is not not someone 3:15:09.680 --> 3:15:13.039 who you know, feels he's skated by by avoiding the 3:15:13.080 --> 3:15:15.840 death penalty. Um. This is someone who has had to 3:15:15.920 --> 3:15:19.120 learn about trauma mostly on his own because with those 3:15:19.160 --> 3:15:22.120 life sentences, he is ineligible for so many of the 3:15:22.160 --> 3:15:25.480 programs of the scant programs and resources that we have 3:15:25.560 --> 3:15:27.680 in the Department of Correction because they don't give it 3:15:27.720 --> 3:15:31.240 to people who don't have parole dates. So he's had 3:15:31.320 --> 3:15:33.360 to do a lot of this on his own. He's 3:15:33.400 --> 3:15:37.039 come a remarkable way. He's still someone that needs, um, 3:15:37.080 --> 3:15:41.400 probably extensive treatment and therapy to deal with his own 3:15:41.440 --> 3:15:44.480 trauma as well as to deal with the effects of 3:15:44.520 --> 3:15:49.199 what he did on himself. Um, but he's a remarkable individual. 3:15:49.680 --> 3:15:52.080 He's a great self advocate. I wish you could speak 3:15:52.120 --> 3:15:55.320 with him as well. Um, he's someone I'm proud to represent. 3:15:55.560 --> 3:15:58.200 Not just that I do because I get paid. Um, 3:15:58.240 --> 3:16:00.240 this is why I got into the practic. Just a 3:16:00.320 --> 3:16:04.480 law is this type of case. Um, he is not innocent, 3:16:04.920 --> 3:16:08.560 but he is not. Uh, he should not be bearing 3:16:08.560 --> 3:16:11.880 the full weight of what occurred. While you know, Jack 3:16:12.080 --> 3:16:14.080 is serving a life sentence. I think he should have 3:16:14.120 --> 3:16:16.840 one or two or three more for his role in this. 3:16:17.360 --> 3:16:20.840 I mean heats youth and heats brain damage. Because of that, 3:16:20.920 --> 3:16:24.400 sexual abuse should have and now should be considered. And 3:16:24.440 --> 3:16:27.720 we just hope the governor will Yeah, yeah, hopefully so. 3:16:27.920 --> 3:16:29.880 And again, if you want to learn more, there's heath 3:16:29.920 --> 3:16:33.400 stocks dot info. Um, there's a lot of good about 3:16:33.480 --> 3:16:37.240 Jack Walls on there as well. Um, and you can 3:16:37.280 --> 3:16:42.080 there's a link to make a donation to Heath's defense. Um. 3:16:42.120 --> 3:16:44.000 All right, well Michael, thank you so much for coming 3:16:44.000 --> 3:16:46.160 on today. UM, and I hope you have a good 3:16:46.360 --> 3:17:01.880 recipe week. Now's well, hey, We'll be back Monday with 3:17:02.040 --> 3:17:04.879 more episodes every week from now until the heat death 3:17:04.920 --> 3:17:07.680 of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a production 3:17:07.680 --> 3:17:10.720 of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 3:17:10.840 --> 3:17:13.280 visit our website cool zone Media dot com or check 3:17:13.360 --> 3:17:15.600 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:17:15.720 --> 3:17:18.720 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 3:17:18.760 --> 3:17:21.320 for It Could Happen here, updated monthly at cool zone 3:17:21.320 --> 3:17:25.400 Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. I'm Tanya Sam, 3:17:25.520 --> 3:17:28.520 host of the Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenwood. This 3:17:28.600 --> 3:17:30.959 daily podcast will help give you the keys to the 3:17:31.040 --> 3:17:34.920 Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance. With celebrity guests 3:17:34.920 --> 3:17:38.879 like Rick Ross, Amanda Sells, Angela Ye, Roland, Martin, JB. Smooth, 3:17:38.879 --> 3:17:41.120 and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn 3:17:41.160 --> 3:17:45.360 liabilities into assets and make your money moves up. 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But 3:18:12.680 --> 3:18:16.119 when I went and did the Donda thing, Yea returned 3:18:16.680 --> 3:18:19.720 and anybody had to sit back and watch the real leader. 3:18:20.000 --> 3:18:22.720 Check out drink Champ's conversation with Yea and many more 3:18:22.800 --> 3:18:25.480 legendary artists each and every Friday on the I Heart 3:18:25.560 --> 3:18:28.280 Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your 3:18:28.280 --> 3:18:33.520 favorite shows. When P. T. Barnum's Great American Museum burned 3:18:33.520 --> 3:18:36.120 to the ground in eighteen sixty five, what rose from 3:18:36.120 --> 3:18:39.640 its ashes would change the world? Welcome to Grim and 3:18:39.680 --> 3:18:43.320 Mild Presents, an ongoing journey into the strange, the unusual, 3:18:43.520 --> 3:18:46.640 and the fascinating. In our inaugural season, will give you 3:18:46.680 --> 3:18:50.039 a backstage tour of the complex and unusual artifact that 3:18:50.240 --> 3:18:53.720 is the American Side Show. 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