1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,840
Speaker 1: Hey, lead the listeners tag here. Last season on Lethal Lit,

2
00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,240
Speaker 1: you might remember I came to Hollow Falls on a

3
00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,880
Speaker 1: mission clearing my aunt Best's name and making sure justice

4
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,960
Speaker 1: was finally served. But I hadn't counted on a rash

5
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,840
Speaker 1: of new murders tearing apart the town. My mission put

6
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,480
Speaker 1: myself and my friends in danger. Though it wasn't all bad,

7
00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to be realty tig I like you, but

8
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,280
Speaker 1: now all signs point to a new serial killer in

9
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,240
Speaker 1: Hollow Falls. If this game is just starting, you better

10
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,559
Speaker 1: believe I'm gonna win. I'm tig Torres, and this is

11
00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 1: Lethal Lit. Catch up on season one of the hit

12
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,280
Speaker 1: murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit, a tig Torre's mystery out now,

13
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,840
Speaker 1: and then tune in for all new thrills in season two,

14
00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,400
Speaker 1: dropping weekly starting February nine. Subscribe now to never miss

15
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,480
Speaker 1: an episode. Listen to Leave the Lit on the I

16
00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

17
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,560
Speaker 1: Here's to the great American settlers. The millions of you

18
00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 1: have settled for unsatisfying jobs because they pay the bills.

19
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 1: Of course, there is something else you could do if

20
00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,319
Speaker 1: you've got something to say, startup podcast with Spreaker from

21
00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,960
Speaker 1: my heart and unleash your creative freedom, maybe even earn

22
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 1: enough money to one day tell your old boss, Hey,

23
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:27,320
Speaker 1: I'm no settler, I'm an explorer. Spreaker dot com, spr

24
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,400
Speaker 1: e a k e R. Hustle on over Today. Conquer

25
00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 1: your New Year's resolutions with the Before Breakfast podcast. In

26
00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,119
Speaker 1: each bite sized daily episode, you'll learn how to make

27
00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,480
Speaker 1: the most of your time with practical tools to help

28
00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,840
Speaker 1: you feel less busy and get more done. Listen to

29
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,480
Speaker 1: Before Breakfast on the I Heart Radio app four wherever

30
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,920
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and

31
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to let you know. This is a compiletion episode.

32
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,720
Speaker 1: So every episode of the week that just happened is

33
00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,560
Speaker 1: here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package

34
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 1: for you to listen to in a long stretch if

35
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,160
Speaker 1: you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every

36
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 1: day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you,

37
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:16,560
Speaker 1: but you can make your own decisions. Whats What's? What's?

38
00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,200
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans, this is it could happen here? The

39
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:24,399
Speaker 1: show that asks what's and also other questions. Um more

40
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,640
Speaker 1: more more meaningful questions than that about you know, things

41
00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,680
Speaker 1: falling apart, fixing them all that good stuff with me

42
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:37,360
Speaker 1: today as usual Garrison and Chris and as is currently unusual,

43
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,079
Speaker 1: but will be more usual every preceding month after this one.

44
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 1: Our good friend st Andrew. St Andrew quite about but

45
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 1: it's fine. How are you doing today, Andrew? I'm good.

46
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm good. You know, it's rainy, it's chill. It's better

47
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 1: than the kind of hot weather we've been getting lately.

48
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,800
Speaker 1: So I'm good. Yeah, it's raining and chill here. But

49
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,680
Speaker 1: seven months of the year. Uh, I think there's slightly

50
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:10,040
Speaker 1: different uh climates in Portland, Oregon and Trinidad, probably, I've

51
00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:15,120
Speaker 1: been told. Um, so we have had you on a

52
00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,799
Speaker 1: couple of weeks back to talk about solar punk, and

53
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna be bringing you back on about twice a

54
00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,520
Speaker 1: month to talk about, um, whatever the hell you want

55
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,400
Speaker 1: to talk about. And so I'm going to now hand

56
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,520
Speaker 1: the episode over to you, um and trust like a

57
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,880
Speaker 1: little lamb that you'll lead me somewhere beautiful and filled

58
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 1: with good forage. Yes, sunshine, rainbows, the Promised Land. Yeah. Okay,

59
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,880
Speaker 1: So I think we've all noticed that the environments this

60
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:51,000
Speaker 1: movement kind of sucks jumping into it has not done

61
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 1: the things that has not accomplished. It's been around for

62
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,120
Speaker 1: like over half a century actually really more than that,

63
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 1: and you know, where are we know? You know? Um,

64
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,600
Speaker 1: of course we do have to confront and acknowledge that,

65
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,040
Speaker 1: like there's the s C where oil company has literally

66
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,320
Speaker 1: suppressed a whole bunch of information and you know, co

67
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,600
Speaker 1: opted like a lot of the earlier movements and stuff.

68
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 1: But we've kind of known for a while now and

69
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 1: we are still here, So it's like what gives you know? Um,

70
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,039
Speaker 1: I think there's kind of an interesting phenomenon that I

71
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,920
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about today, um known as soft climate

72
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,279
Speaker 1: change denial. So are you're familiar with that or what

73
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,600
Speaker 1: you're thinking is based on foot impressions? Um, I mean, yeah,

74
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,360
Speaker 1: I've heard the term. I would think it's sort of um,

75
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 1: I mean a number of different things, including the idea

76
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,359
Speaker 1: that like, well there's nothing we can do, so nothing

77
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,400
Speaker 1: should be done, you know, mm hmm yeah what what

78
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,599
Speaker 1: about your garrison? Yeah? Most of my understanding of the

79
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,359
Speaker 1: term is like someone like saying they like, know, the

80
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,240
Speaker 1: climate change is the thing, like they recognize that, but

81
00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:13,080
Speaker 1: they are kind of more in denial of what solutions

82
00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,960
Speaker 1: can be done to really change anything that's generated understanding

83
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,440
Speaker 1: of the term when I see it like online or something, Yeah,

84
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,479
Speaker 1: what about your Chris, Yeah, I usually see it. It's

85
00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,320
Speaker 1: it's like it's usually in the context of people, you know,

86
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,240
Speaker 1: you can in the US, there's the whole um. There's

87
00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,880
Speaker 1: whole political factions whose entire thing is saying, like, we

88
00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,120
Speaker 1: believe in science, and then they'll go talk about like

89
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,200
Speaker 1: how much they believe in climate change and then two

90
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 1: seconds later and around there like signings. Yeah, so that

91
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:51,479
Speaker 1: that's that's that's my understanding of it, right, Yeah, according

92
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,640
Speaker 1: to everyone's favorites source um Wikipedia, soft climate change denial

93
00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,120
Speaker 1: is a seat of mind acknowledging the existence of a

94
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,040
Speaker 1: woman in the abstract what remaining to some extent, impartial,

95
00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 1: psychological or intellectual denihilism about its reality or impact. And

96
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 1: something I was spoken about in my channel in my

97
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,240
Speaker 1: most recent video where I was talking with the different

98
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,320
Speaker 1: facets of sula punk. You know what sula punk is,

99
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,880
Speaker 1: what it needs, um, things that can probably potentially drag

100
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,960
Speaker 1: down the soula punk movement, and things that people have

101
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,839
Speaker 1: been using to try to drag it down because so

102
00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,359
Speaker 1: the punk is kind of building in popularity, and with

103
00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,159
Speaker 1: anything that builds in popularity, there are attempts from all

104
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,240
Speaker 1: sorts of angles to co opt it and to repackage

105
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,600
Speaker 1: it and com modify it and all those things. So

106
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,640
Speaker 1: I've kind of noticed with the Sula punk phenomenon that

107
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,800
Speaker 1: there's this effort by people who professed to care about

108
00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 1: the climate and stuff to try to push it away

109
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:59,680
Speaker 1: from more radical directions towards something more appealing and appeasing

110
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 1: to the status school into the system UM. And I

111
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,520
Speaker 1: mean according to the Wikipedia definition, you know, it's they

112
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,120
Speaker 1: call it a state of mind. I think it's also

113
00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,480
Speaker 1: like an implicit philosophy that undergodes like entire groups and

114
00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 1: entire movements. You know, so like for example, obviously you

115
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 1: know in effects individuals where you know, people will um

116
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,680
Speaker 1: miscalculated it's risks and think that climb climate change is

117
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,680
Speaker 1: just extra storms or something. But then they also like

118
00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,320
Speaker 1: people are really the movements that would neglect its urgency

119
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:40,440
Speaker 1: with just these platitudes and these um direction less actions

120
00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 1: that just south like this kind of middling reformism um,

121
00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 1: like they underestimate the extent of social change required to

122
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,880
Speaker 1: like mitigate climate change, so basically don't seek to change

123
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 1: it s out of school, but just to sort of

124
00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,080
Speaker 1: tweak it ever so slightly to like capitalism with the

125
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,280
Speaker 1: carbon tax or something. Yeah. Um. And then of course

126
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,680
Speaker 1: they're people who kind of straddle that that fence, or

127
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,560
Speaker 1: maybe it's more of a spectrum between soft climb change

128
00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,360
Speaker 1: nile and hard clim change nile, where they might overestimate

129
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,240
Speaker 1: the extent of scientific uncertainty, so they might think that, oh, well,

130
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, um, yeah, colob warming is happening, but we

131
00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 1: don't exactly know how much it's going to change the

132
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,320
Speaker 1: climate or how much it's impacting our lives and that

133
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,880
Speaker 1: kind of thing, so they basically turn it into something

134
00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,199
Speaker 1: that's still up for debate, you know. And that's why

135
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,760
Speaker 1: I say kind of straddles that line between soft line

136
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 1: and hard line, because obviously the hard climb change nihilists

137
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 1: they're just like, oh, well, you know, it doesn't exist,

138
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 1: or if it does exist, humans don't closet if you

139
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,520
Speaker 1: and still course there's nothing we can do that kind

140
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 1: of thing. Have you all had like experiences with soft

141
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:58,240
Speaker 1: climb change nil like and you wouldn't personal organizing? Oh yeah, yeah,

142
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 1: I would say, so I don't care ard um. I mean,

143
00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,079
Speaker 1: it's kind of a thing you encounter constantly in American

144
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:11,760
Speaker 1: politics because it's it's really like often times your best option, uh,

145
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,480
Speaker 1: in terms of like it's that or the people who

146
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 1: say that talking about climate change is socialism. Yeah, you know.

147
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,640
Speaker 1: So I was in verminal Studies mature for most of

148
00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 1: college and then I decided not to do it, and

149
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,559
Speaker 1: then I got like a minor instead because like one

150
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 1: class often a long story, but you know, it was

151
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 1: interesting seeing it there because like, you know, there there

152
00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 1: were basically like two possible reactions to learning that one

153
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 1: was like people who you know what one was you

154
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 1: get incredibly depressed and that's what I did or and

155
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,760
Speaker 1: then the the second one was people would you know

156
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,040
Speaker 1: and these people who like actually you know, you know,

157
00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:57,800
Speaker 1: I mean these are rebial studies mais right, Like these

158
00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:59,720
Speaker 1: people have spent a lot of time studying this stuff,

159
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,520
Speaker 1: and they kind of like, I don't know, this is

160
00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 1: almost like like this kind of intellectual retreat where you

161
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,960
Speaker 1: could see people businessly just like convincing themselves that like

162
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 1: somehow this would be okay, and they'd like, I don't know,

163
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,640
Speaker 1: people would just get like completely obsessed with like electoral

164
00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,360
Speaker 1: maps and you're like no, no no, no, no, no no, okay, okay,

165
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,560
Speaker 1: if if if we win exactly this number of seats

166
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,600
Speaker 1: in this year, then like we can we can start

167
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,199
Speaker 1: doing carbon credits or like, I don't know, it was

168
00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,960
Speaker 1: it was. It was really interesting to watch because it

169
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 1: was like it was it was I mean, because like

170
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,120
Speaker 1: I think I think that there's there's like there's very

171
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,400
Speaker 1: there's bad faith versions of it, and then I think

172
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:38,960
Speaker 1: there's also versions of it that are just sort of

173
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,959
Speaker 1: like people genuinely not want to accept, yeah, like the

174
00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 1: what's necessary to stop this? And so they're sort of

175
00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,839
Speaker 1: like that, well, they can't even really like think about

176
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 1: what's necessary because because of all the education system works,

177
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,040
Speaker 1: and just I could go on like long runs about

178
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,439
Speaker 1: the education system. It really it really really, um it

179
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,320
Speaker 1: really it's people's ability to think outside of like this

180
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 1: very very strict box of possibilities because you know, so

181
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,480
Speaker 1: much just left out of UM for example, history classes

182
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,960
Speaker 1: and soone just left out of UM really all the subjects.

183
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:21,440
Speaker 1: There's this very clear ideology that you're expected to come

184
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,800
Speaker 1: out of the education system with. And so even when

185
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,120
Speaker 1: you reach academia and high education and stuff. You're still

186
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,920
Speaker 1: stuck with that mode of thinking. And even as you're

187
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 1: presented with all this new information, because your brain currently

188
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 1: like handle like the great extent of what climate change is,

189
00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of retreats into this sort of

190
00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,920
Speaker 1: simple kind of all we just need to vote, because

191
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,800
Speaker 1: voting is all I know. Voting is a tool to do.

192
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,760
Speaker 1: Voting is politics, and politics is voting. That's the extent

193
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,360
Speaker 1: of it, right. Yeah, It's like this weird form of

194
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,760
Speaker 1: self press servation that people need to do in order

195
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,880
Speaker 1: to kind of like keep their keep them from in

196
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,400
Speaker 1: their mind, you know, like spiral ling out of control

197
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 1: because this is the only thing that you know, they have.

198
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,360
Speaker 1: They need to focus on their own life right now

199
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: and their own current problems, and that they think about

200
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,320
Speaker 1: this because this like large looming threat too much. It

201
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,640
Speaker 1: just freaks you out right, and you have in order

202
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,760
Speaker 1: to or to just keep going on with your life.

203
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 1: A lot of people like segment off this type of

204
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,360
Speaker 1: thing in their own brain so that you know, manifests

205
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,800
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, and this kind of soft

206
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:36,319
Speaker 1: denial so that you can just keep on going. Yeah. Yeah,

207
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 1: and I see with with friends and I see with

208
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,800
Speaker 1: the family. You know, obviously they're the handful of people

209
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 1: who still, at least in my experience, we still deny

210
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,840
Speaker 1: climate change. But then there's like a bigger portion of

211
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,559
Speaker 1: people whose whole understanding climate change is just this or what.

212
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,240
Speaker 1: We just need to recycle and we just need to

213
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,840
Speaker 1: like switch to electric vehicles and once you do that,

214
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,679
Speaker 1: you know we'll be okay, um, which is tweak a

215
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,200
Speaker 1: couple of things, get some solar panels, and yeah, you know,

216
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,560
Speaker 1: the understanding of it has been completely limited to like

217
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:15,520
Speaker 1: this very restricted conversation that is like um basically cultivated

218
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,880
Speaker 1: by certain interest groups and certain um lobbying groups and

219
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,200
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. You know, Yeah, the only a

220
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,440
Speaker 1: certain amount of change is allowed, and that's what we're

221
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,120
Speaker 1: allowed to think. So that's what we're like shown for

222
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,600
Speaker 1: examples of in like media and pop culture or whatever. Right,

223
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,800
Speaker 1: So this is you know, this is kind of what um.

224
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,680
Speaker 1: You know, like all of the YouTubers who got money

225
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,560
Speaker 1: from Bill Gates when Bill Gates wrote his climate book, right,

226
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,480
Speaker 1: all of the things that they were talking about is

227
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,520
Speaker 1: like it's like this kind of stuff because the only

228
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,120
Speaker 1: way for Bill Gates to keep his money well, you know,

229
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 1: talking about climate change is to have these kind of

230
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,959
Speaker 1: half asked like solutions that are actually deny the impending

231
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,199
Speaker 1: reality and deny that. No, the only way to actually

232
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,000
Speaker 1: fix it is by taking about his money, um, which

233
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 1: he's not as big a fan of. Yeah, I mean,

234
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,880
Speaker 1: have you all seen the cucked video on climate change

235
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,559
Speaker 1: and economy coming? So what did you want? To? Climate change?

236
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,520
Speaker 1: In a nutshell? It's like this like that so people

237
00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 1: can find it, but people will I think people people know.

238
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 1: I think a lot a lot of people know what

239
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 1: it is. Or you can just search in a nutshell

240
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,440
Speaker 1: on YouTube. It's key you are. I'm gonna try. I'm

241
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,520
Speaker 1: gonna try, k you are. No, it's ku r G

242
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,280
Speaker 1: Was it ku r z? I think it's k you

243
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:47,840
Speaker 1: r z G E s A A G T Right,

244
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 1: it is. It is a It is a weird one.

245
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 1: But what what what are you talking about? The can

246
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,040
Speaker 1: you fix climate change? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, where the whole

247
00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,040
Speaker 1: thesis is basically vote with your boots and food with

248
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 1: your wallet. Yeah, that's the only thing that you're really allowed, right, Yeah,

249
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 1: And I believe this is one of the videos sponsored

250
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,800
Speaker 1: by They put this, um, yeah, they did. It was

251
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,120
Speaker 1: and then they had this whole line about some people

252
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 1: think we need to change like our system from climate

253
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 1: chy from from capitalism, but we're not so sure about that.

254
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 1: We don't know the answer. So if it's just be

255
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,560
Speaker 1: like shrug towards a system, it's from with the system.

256
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 1: But they basically gave it no attention, you know. But

257
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,760
Speaker 1: their channel is literally about like quite deep into research

258
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,640
Speaker 1: about things. So it's very obvious that if they spent

259
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,040
Speaker 1: no time like doing any kind of research into like

260
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,000
Speaker 1: why people have the system and critique that obviously Bill

261
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 1: Kate's hand is very deep in their pockets, you know,

262
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,800
Speaker 1: because I believe that I believe the researchers actually kind

263
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,560
Speaker 1: of know that, but they're not. They just can't say

264
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,920
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to. Yeah, And I mean like, yeah,

265
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 1: I think they're making the bargain a lot of people

266
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 1: make where they're like, Okay, well, if we can push

267
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 1: for you know, the immediate necessary changes, we can worry about,

268
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that later on. It's it's just

269
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,760
Speaker 1: important to get something done. Um, And so we'll compromise

270
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 1: and will not will not call for what we know

271
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 1: is actually necessary to deal with the problem. We'll just

272
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,920
Speaker 1: we'll just go with a half measure because at least

273
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 1: it's something we've got to do something now, right. The

274
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 1: thing that's always been very grim about that to me

275
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 1: is like you look about how how that plays out, right,

276
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,200
Speaker 1: and it's always like, well, okay, so our our half

277
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,240
Speaker 1: measure is gonna be we're gonna we're gonna just like

278
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 1: put put put a monetary value on indigenous forests so

279
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 1: that governments can like steal them and get paid for

280
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 1: taking the land. And it's never stuff like why don't

281
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 1: we like make more marshes, which is you know, if

282
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,720
Speaker 1: you're gonna talk about stuff that like could actually be done, right,

283
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, well, but what do re marshing do

284
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,360
Speaker 1: we want? Like that's that that stuff like is easy

285
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,240
Speaker 1: and doesn't need you know, you don't literally have to

286
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 1: overthrow capitalism to get people to like restore marshes. But

287
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 1: it never happens because this that's you know, the whole

288
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,680
Speaker 1: basis of the sort of soft denialism stuff is not

289
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,320
Speaker 1: actually you know, it's not actually the type of solve

290
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,320
Speaker 1: climate change. They just want to make money, And it's

291
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:16,920
Speaker 1: extremely grim. Yeah. Yeah, there's this video that the storyteller

292
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,119
Speaker 1: is this YouTuber. Um he did recently on co opting movements,

293
00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 1: and he was explaining that, Um, with the march in

294
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 1: Washington right during the Civil Rights movement. Um, that was

295
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,919
Speaker 1: an organic movement that you know, the people had come

296
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:40,040
Speaker 1: up with, right, but obviously a mass movement. Theah FI

297
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,960
Speaker 1: isn't going to just sit back and let that happen, right,

298
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 1: So they brought in these leaders. Um they're called the

299
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 1: Big Six, and um, the storyteller was explaining that basically

300
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 1: they were paid to co opt the march to basically

301
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,919
Speaker 1: become its figureheads and its leaders. They hadn't organized it themselves,

302
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,920
Speaker 1: but they came on afterwards and became the leaders in

303
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 1: the march and read the speeches that they were supposed

304
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 1: to read, that kind of thing, and so that sort

305
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,680
Speaker 1: of mass movement was basically defound like that. I mean,

306
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 1: obviously reforms were made and you know, Civil Rights Act

307
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 1: was passed. But then, you know, after all that happened,

308
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 1: and MLK got disillusioned by the system as a whole

309
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,920
Speaker 1: and wanted to start pushing even harder against capitalism and whatnot.

310
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 1: That's when well, coincidentally, you got a bullet, you know,

311
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting that these movements they're able,

312
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 1: they're they're comfortable with these movements up to a certain point, um,

313
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 1: and comfortable these leaders going these certain directions at to

314
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 1: a certain point. But then when you actually start posing

315
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 1: a threat to this out of school, that's when you know,

316
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 1: you become a problem in the community. Not to see that, okay,

317
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: wasn't a threat to the side of school, but just

318
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 1: to see that's you know, um, there was. They have

319
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 1: certain limits that they don't want people to cross. Yeah, capitalism.

320
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,959
Speaker 1: One of the things that's that makes it such a

321
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 1: robust system in terms of its ability to to not

322
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,920
Speaker 1: get overthrown or destroyed is that, up to a certain point,

323
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,159
Speaker 1: it loves dissent. It loves anti capitalism because you can

324
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 1: market that very easily. Like there's a lot of money

325
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 1: in in in anti capitalism. There's a lot of money

326
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,879
Speaker 1: and being critical of the system. It's just when you

327
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,880
Speaker 1: hit a certain point, um, then it then it becomes

328
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 1: you know, the CIA or the FBI or some person

329
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: who's been um convinced to shoot use problem like it.

330
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,760
Speaker 1: There's a there's a point at which, uh, that's no

331
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: longer accepted. But quite a bit of criticism and even

332
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 1: like agitation to change your end the system can be

333
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,919
Speaker 1: accepted because it's monetize herbal and speaking of that, you

334
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: know what time it is? Time for ad serious? Absolutely

335
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 1: is oh boy, time for an ad or or that's

336
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,119
Speaker 1: the CIA at the door. We won't know until we

337
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,359
Speaker 1: come back from break. Ah, we're back. It wasn't the

338
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 1: CIA this time. Good news, guys, thankfully. I mean the

339
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,439
Speaker 1: fact that they flew all the way down just to

340
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: meet me. I'm on it, honestly. Oh, I mean they've

341
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 1: come to trend a dad for less. Oh that's true. Yeah, yeah,

342
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,400
Speaker 1: But like we were seeing, right, does a school issue

343
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 1: of these movements being able to go in a cittain

344
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 1: direction rowning up to a certain point. Um. I think

345
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: it's something that's Pizza Caloso talks about in how non

346
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 1: violence protects the state, in the sense of, you know,

347
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: these people are able to once they get a certain

348
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: level of attention, all of a sudden, you know, you're

349
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 1: invited to speak of these events, and you're invited to

350
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 1: go this place and that, and you basically get consumed

351
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 1: into the workshop machine, the angio machine, and the climate

352
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 1: conference machine kind of things. So you end up with

353
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 1: all these figures, these organizers, these activists who go from

354
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 1: like generally trying to organize their communities and their spaces,

355
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 1: and then before you know it, they're like at such

356
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: and such a conference because well they think it's an

357
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: opportunity to like actually make like a bigger change. But

358
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 1: in reality, you know, they're just there too be defound.

359
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 1: You know. So like, for example, who mainly comes to

360
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 1: mind is like Great Thunberg. I mean I haven't looked

361
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: at deeply into her past or anything. Um. I know

362
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: they are certain right wingers who are very obsessed with her,

363
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: but I know that she recently said that she's kind

364
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 1: of done with politicians. Um. Because when you think of

365
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,479
Speaker 1: how she basically came up, you know, right exactly what

366
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 1: how she basically came up. It was like she is

367
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: talking at these events and you know, people are in

368
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: frighting out things because you know, look at look at

369
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 1: this cute little google um yelling about climate change, right,

370
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 1: and she basically becomes this spectacle, you know, and that

371
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 1: spectacle is entertained up to the point people make big

372
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: events out of her, you know, like breaking down in

373
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: front of these positions and stuff, and you know what

374
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 1: they just go right back to normal. UM. I think

375
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 1: it was copy was like last week or the week

376
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: before UM and representatives from representative I think the Prime

377
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: Minister of Barbados was there and she had this, you know,

378
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: a great speech about how the global nothings do more

379
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: for you know, these countries in Global South because you

380
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: know they have responsibility that kind of thing. Cool UM.

381
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know there's like developments

382
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: going on Barbados too, you know, basically bring in more

383
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 1: tourists and to bring in more UM and like you know,

384
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: resorts building and that kind of thing that basically add

385
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: to the UM emissions and adds the UM negative impact

386
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: in the environment. You know, same thing with like T's government,

387
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, like the representativeution that went to top including

388
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister, and you know they're all about things

389
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: changing and you know, the climate movement UM and the

390
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 1: climate change being real and the actions need to be taken.

391
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: And then like this didn't make it in like like

392
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: mainstare news of course, but in local news. Basically right

393
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: after Prime Minister trans vehicle dos Keith Rowley, he went

394
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: and met up with like Shell. Yeah, like representatives at

395
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: Shell to like basically bring the country and the company

396
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: closer together, you know, um, because you know you're not

397
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: is reliant and oil and that kind of thing. So

398
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: obviously these sort of leaders and these sorts of movements,

399
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: they only go up to a certain point, and even then,

400
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: so much of it is just this performance. Yeah, this

401
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: UM act. Basically I'll be I'm putting together a thing

402
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: on copies right now, UM because I think it actually

403
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: it does demonstrate a lot of the soft denial stuff

404
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: that you're talking about. Like the biggest thing to come

405
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: out of copy in terms of actual deals is just

406
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 1: uh progress on carbon markets and carbon offset credits. That's there.

407
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: That's really the only thing we actually got, um. And

408
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: they say wed but not not like us, but like

409
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, the people in charge, they they got this

410
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,479
Speaker 1: and and the the the quote they gave was that

411
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: the being able to buy carbon offset credits, meaning that

412
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: like you don't actually make emissions differences. So they said,

413
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: you you buy pretend emissions differences from other countries that

414
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: actually did make changes, um, so that you don't get penalized.

415
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: So that's buying the credits far. But they said, they said,

416
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: buying the credits can potentially unlock trillions of dollars for

417
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: protecting trees, expanding renewable energy, and other pludgets combat climate change.

418
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: It's that's the fuckers like don't climate credits. It's like, um,

419
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 1: it's the same as saying like hail Mary's because you

420
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: you send and you went to your priest and confessed.

421
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: It's like, I've I've I've done bad things to the environment.

422
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: Tell me like how many times I need to go

423
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: through this ritual in order to in order to cleanse

424
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: myself of having the atmosphere you know exactly. I think

425
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: it's bleaker than that in a lot of ways, Like

426
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's it's really it's the

427
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: climate version of like the World Wildlife Fund having death squads. Okay, now, Chris,

428
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: you are a very anti death squad, and I think

429
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: we need to deal with that at some point because

430
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: hashtag not all death squads. Yes, my mother will need

431
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: to be able to account for by strong anti death

432
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: squad stance. This is a yeah, you say that now,

433
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: but you're gonna get a death squad to fight the

434
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: death squads, and then where are you begin to be

435
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: se death squadsception get they get a death squad to

436
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: fight your death squad, and then it's just like the

437
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 1: constant each other out and then you have to get

438
00:26:51,960 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: another death squad and then see Marxist Lendon is m Yeah,

439
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: it's a number of other things too, to be fair

440
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: to Marxism. Another thing that might make you kind of

441
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: question the integrity of CUT is that there were more

442
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: delegates at CUP six from fossil field companies than there

443
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 1: were from any individual nation. That makes sense. But then right,

444
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: that's like another thing, right, because you're talking about six

445
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: and we have Selft. Climate change denial gets into that,

446
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: But I don't think. I think self fim change denial

447
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: can only be applied so far when it comes to

448
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: those sorts of big spectacles and those big major events.

449
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: Because even if they themselves really truly understand the depths

450
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: of climate change and trust and believe, like these oil

451
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: barons and stuff, they know like they have all the

452
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: infund right present front of them. They've done they already

453
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: done their like cost benefit analyses and like risk assessments

454
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: and kind of thing, so they know exactly like what

455
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: the impact is going to be. They have the money

456
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: to have access to this. Scientists right, But it's not

457
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: soft clime change denial for them, it's I'm a capitalist.

458
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to do what a capitalist does. You know,

459
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: it's ultimately a funct Wait, they're operating within a system,

460
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, so soft time changenial um it is like

461
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: sort of a psychological phenomenon. But we also to keep

462
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: in mind the day is also like a structural component

463
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: to it. See that even if they're a person does

464
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: not face self clim change now is an experiencing self

465
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: clim change denial that alone, even if they're like fully

466
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: confront the sue, that's just an individual, you know, and

467
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: there's still like a whole structure around that individual that

468
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: will still incentivize certain behavior. And then of course with

469
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 1: the incentives of certain behavior comes like the psychological justifications

470
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: for that behavior. So it kind of almost becomes that

471
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: they end up justifying themselves into self climate change denial,

472
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So kind of like it's

473
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: like a FID that it's like a feedback loop that

474
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: reinforces its own existence. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I think

475
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: that honestly, like the feedback loop model is where we

476
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: have a lot of our problems with the climate change are.

477
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: They're all very much linked to the feedback loop model

478
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: of things trying to justify their own existence. And then

479
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, certain and then on the reverse side of things,

480
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, when certain changes in the climate happen, those

481
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: create their own feedback loops which create more changes to happen.

482
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: It's like everything, everything, one one massive loop. Yeah. I

483
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: gets me to like, there's the discourse around climate change

484
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: and stuff is like halted and divoted and immobilized, you

485
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: know by soft climate change. Now, you know, discussions of

486
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: the very real, very current, very near future and very

487
00:29:54,680 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: violent impacts of climate change just basically softened, like like

488
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: you know when you try to throw a punch in

489
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: a dream. Yeah, Like you're trying to like push, and

490
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: then it's like, you know, it's like this kind of

491
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: soft um or like you throw something in space. I

492
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: guess it's just you put all this effort into it

493
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: and then you go in another direction that kind of thing. Um,

494
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: I don't know where I'm going with this analogy, so

495
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: I'll just keep on going. Um. Basically that there's an

496
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: issue with the conversation with the discourse has just been

497
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, harmed by the psychological phenomenon but of course

498
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,479
Speaker 1: there's the other side of psychological phenomenon of soft clan

499
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: engine nial, not the hard clansine genial side, but rather

500
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: the I'm so on the opposite end of soft clungine

501
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: nil that I'm like an inconsolable and like illogical and

502
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine the possibility of anything happening kind

503
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: of yeah. Yeah, the kind of the kind of extreme

504
00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: dumerism where you recognize, how you organize that clumpsage is bad, um,

505
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: but then you you see it as such a massive

506
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: overwhelming thing that basically shuts you down from be able

507
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: to do anything else, and you're just like, exactly, there's

508
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: really no spot to do anything if it's going to

509
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: be this bad. There's really no one's you know, it's

510
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: such a hard capitalism and the systems that are working

511
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: to keep it going or such a hard thing to

512
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: overcome that it seems like the best thing to do

513
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: is just sit down and do nothing. Yeah, And that's

514
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: the thing, right, Like these are slash collapse people, right, Um.

515
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: I mean I appreciate that they don't shy away from

516
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: like the really difficult stuff, and they also stumble into

517
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: this kind of like coop that's dumorism, Like it's dramatic

518
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: kind of we are screwed, We're all going to be

519
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: fight saying this Mad Max style arena. Like that's not

520
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: how you know, climb Chine is going to play out.

521
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's not a movie. You know, like if

522
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: things are going to break down in Sutain places and

523
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: other places are gonna lockdown in Sutain, weez, but it's

524
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: not going to be like this certain global devolution into

525
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: hotness like that. You know, that's not really how social change.

526
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: That's already how collapses have you know, functional history. You know,

527
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: of course we live in a like a global civilization

528
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: and previous collapses have been fairly localized. But still, you know,

529
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: climate change is both global and local, so there are

530
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: certain changes it will only affects it in localities. This

531
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: is something that actually the book Desert addresses fairly well,

532
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: and I find it frustrat Yeah, yeah, because I find

533
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: really frustrating because especially on the online left, there's people

534
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: who treat desert like the Gospel, or at least they

535
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: say they do, but they're actually extreme doomers who fetishize

536
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: collapse um and they're like, oh, everything is hopeless read

537
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: desert but then you but then desert, but you reasert.

538
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: Like desert is like explicitly anti collapse and same collapse

539
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: isn't gonna happen. Collapse is a fantasy you tell yourself

540
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: to keep you going in for this kind of haven't

541
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: heard of. Desert the Desert is a book that's available

542
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: for free online about what's coming. Um. It's titled desert

543
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: because of an old quote about how empires um leave

544
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: nothing but deserts in their wake. Basically like that's it's

545
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: it's just like a thing that that empire. I think

546
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: the exact quote is like empires make a desert and

547
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: call it peace. Um. And it's it's basically discussing the

548
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: fact like not just literal desertification, but like, um, that

549
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 1: that's more of a more of a better picture of

550
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: like our future under climate change than kind of these

551
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: these mad max dreams this like slow dissolution of resources

552
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: and uh environments. Um, and that that's kind of the Yeah,

553
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: it's a it's a good book. You can read it yourself,

554
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: and it's it's quite influential online. Um. But yeah, as

555
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: as Garrison pointed out, there are people who kind of

556
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: take it in a in a direction that I don't

557
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: believe the authors. I mean clearly the authors didn't mean

558
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: because they directly called out that kind of thinking. Yeah, yeah,

559
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: it's kind of like some people treat like collapse and stuff.

560
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: It's basically the secular version of like revelation in the Bible.

561
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Or it's or it's like the non marketus

562
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: version of like the revolution. It's like it's like this

563
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: this kind of mythical event to like prepare for and

564
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: almost be excited for, but like it's it's fake. It's

565
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: a fantasy. It's it's something we tell ourselves to keep

566
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: ourselves going as things are bad. But it's not. It's

567
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: it's not real. Yeah, like any day, you know, the

568
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: trumpets will sound in the heavens and the screws will

569
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 1: be broken and the great, the great beast will arise

570
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: from the sea and you know all that fame. Yeah,

571
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: And I I don't know what the solution is for that.

572
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: I I don't know how both on the soft climate

573
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: denial side of like how do you go about? How

574
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: do you go about? It's like the only thing we

575
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: can really do is the people, you know, we know,

576
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: how how do we go about and tell the um that, hey,

577
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: things are probably gonna be a bit worse than what

578
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: you're preparing for. Um, And how do we tell the

579
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: people who are doomers, Hey, it's not gonna be like

580
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: this weird dystopian thing that you're thinking of. Either it's

581
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's interesting because like they're both veering

582
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: off in two opposite directions, but it both kind of

583
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: leads to the same point of kind of doing nothing.

584
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: But one version. One version of nothing is basically, you know,

585
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: voting for stuff that's not that's never gonna happen. The

586
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: other version is not just not doing anything in general. Um.

587
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: And I I don't know how to how to reach

588
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: those types of people very easily. Yeah, which kind of

589
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: brings me to like my thoughts on like how we

590
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: move past soft climate change Nile. Um. I don't think

591
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: it's just a matter of like trying to like push

592
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: like campaigns on people. I think it's gonna be like

593
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: a very personal sort of journey that each person has

594
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: to go through, right, because each wisnes is different. Each

595
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: wisnes is like has different worries and dealing things in

596
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: a different way, you know. Um, so like you want

597
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,479
Speaker 1: to keep in mind like people's mental health and sort

598
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: of fortifying your mental health and helping people fortified days.

599
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: Because when it comes to mental health with regard to

600
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: like climate change, doing it an isolation in my experience

601
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: has not really worked out. I think what has worked

602
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: best for me is when I am with why I'm

603
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: connected with a group of people or even just one

604
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: other person, and when I'm feeling down about climate change.

605
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: Because despite all my messages of what soula punk and

606
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: you know, we can do this like that that's basically

607
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: the message of my YouTube channel. You know, I still

608
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: experience like those sort of thoughts and feelings of public

609
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: about it. But what I try to do is when

610
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: I'm eating those things, I try to be with people

611
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: who are not currently feeding that, you know, so we're

612
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: not feeding all of each other's nights of energies. Yeah,

613
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: so like when I'm in a bad spot, you know,

614
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: people are on it who could lift me up, and

615
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: when they about dan about spot because it kind of

616
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: comes in weaves, you know, yeah, absolutely, no, Yeah, it's

617
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: it's it's silly to deny those thoughts exist because they do,

618
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: like they're they're very they're a very easy neutral state

619
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: at least for me to slip into UM. And the

620
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: way to get around that is by doing chores at

621
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: a farm and shoveling poop and taking care of animals

622
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: and cooking for people. That's like the way that I

623
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: get out of that kind of mindset. And you know,

624
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: not not to be too hard on all of the

625
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: kind of doomer nihilists, because there there is there, there is,

626
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 1: there's this there's like a sect of like doomer nihilists

627
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: who use like the actual definition of nihilism, which is like,

628
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,919
Speaker 1: if if things don't really matter, we should probably fux

629
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: some stuff up, um. And that's very useful, right like

630
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: if if if you're if if you're on that train

631
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, you should be tree spiking. If

632
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: if if you're okay with if you think nothing matters UM,

633
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: and you are you want to be an actual nihilist,

634
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: then yeah you should make you should make destroy um.

635
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: Just make sure it's focused on the people with actual

636
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: power UM. Because if if you're willing to do that,

637
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: then great, we need we need as many as many

638
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: people like that as possible. But it's certainly easier to

639
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: do that once you have friends and once you're not

640
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: stuck in this super depressed state all the time. Yeah,

641
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: and UM, I think there's a again. We we we

642
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: do take a look at like some of the criticisms.

643
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: People have a show online and I know one that's

644
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: come up a bunch is people will listen to like

645
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: our when when we'll talk about, you know, the severity

646
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: of the problems and then we'll talk about things like

647
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: you know, mutual aid collectives and small guards, seed bombings

648
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, they'll be like, well, that's not

649
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: a solution. No, of course, that's not going to solve

650
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: the global problem of carbon emissions from a civilization of

651
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 1: seven billion humans. What it does do focusing on stuff

652
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: like that, focusing on building soil, UM, focusing on building

653
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: community resistance. In addition to like having an immediate impact

654
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: on the number of people you know, in in in

655
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: your community, it builds a sense of um a sense

656
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: of power for the individual. It It gives you something

657
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: to do that isn't just thinking about how bad things are,

658
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: and that puts you in a mind state that's more

659
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: useful to actually potentially dealing with the bigger problems at

660
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: some point. UM you have to have a sense of

661
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: your own agency that feels real if you're going to

662
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: actually change anything, um and you can. You can build

663
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: it's a muscle, right, You can build it up by

664
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 1: by doing things that are not bigger but are are

665
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: part of the solution. UM And it makes valuable to

666
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: do that for your own for your own mental health,

667
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: because then maybe you if you're maybe if if your

668
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: friend group, if your your affinity group, whatever you wanna

669
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: call it, the people you are hanging out with, if

670
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 1: some of them are always engaged in something productive, then

671
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: when you're in a doomed spiral, you can find someone

672
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: who's working on something UM and vice versa. Yeah, and

673
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't just help your mental health, but it also

674
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: contributes to the pre figurative activities that we need to

675
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: actually make us switch to a different system. You know,

676
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: like the revolution is something that happens overnight or in

677
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 1: a future. It's something that's supposed to be happening all now,

678
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: because as we build those systems, you know, we are

679
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: building up power. You know, it's kind of like how

680
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: the Black socialists in America described dual power. You know,

681
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: it should be a building these systems and putting these

682
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: things in place so that we can push towards like

683
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: fundamental transmission of the system. It's iterative, but as small

684
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: people do on top of that, you know, that's how

685
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: the transmission happens. We also need to contribute. I mean,

686
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's important to talk about this

687
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: both to acknowledge like it's a thing that happens and

688
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: we all deal with. We all have our moments of

689
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: like overwhelming despair over what's happening. UM and and at

690
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: some some moments of unrealistic optimism too. Yeah, every once

691
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: in a while, and the unrealistic optimism needs to be

692
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: encouraged UM, as long as it's not the kind of

693
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: what we don't need to do anything because someone's I

694
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: guess there's toxic optimism and there's helpful. A toxic optimism

695
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: would be like reading an article about some new carbon

696
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: capture technology and being like, oh cool, Well I don't

697
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,479
Speaker 1: need to worry. UM. But but most optimism I think

698
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: is positive UM. And it I think it's good to

699
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: build a capacity for optimism by by building your your

700
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: personal sense of agency and power, by by doing ship

701
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: that helps UM. And I think that accepting that you

702
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: can do things that are meaningful. Um, and that uh,

703
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: there are things to be done that can help the

704
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 1: situation is a critical way of fighting against you know

705
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: this uh soft climate change denial, which which is a um,

706
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 1: a major threat because there's I think, honestly at this point,

707
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: more people who are subscribing to some form of soft

708
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: climate change denial than there are people who are uh

709
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 1: just denying climate change and its entirety. Um. And that's

710
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: I think where a lot of the effort has to go.

711
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: So I yeah, I think this is a really important

712
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: thing for people to understand and to be vigilant against. Absolutely. Yeah.

713
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: All right, well, Andrew, where can the audience find you

714
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: outside of here right now? Yeah? So you can find

715
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: me on my YouTube channel st Andrew's m and you

716
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at a mischool of Sture. Excellent. Well,

717
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: you can find us here where you just found us.

718
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: We'll be here tomorrow, unless this is a Friday, in

719
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: which case we'll be here on Monday. UM. I have

720
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 1: a have a good you know life, have a good life. Care.

721
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: This is Roxanne Gay, host of the Roxanne Gay Agenda,

722
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 1: The Bad Room, and his podcast of Your Dreams. Now

723
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: what is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, You might ask, Well,

724
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 1: it's a podcast where I'm going to speak my mind

725
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: about what's on my mind, and that could be anything.

726
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: Every week I will be in conversation with an interesting

727
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: person who has something to say. We're going to talk

728
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 1: about feminism, race, writing, and books and art, food, pop culture,

729
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: and yes, politics. I started each show with a recommendation, Really,

730
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 1: I'm just going to share with you a movie or

731
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: a book, or maybe some music or a comedy set,

732
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: something that I really want you to be aware of

733
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: and maybe engage with as well. Listen to the Luminary

734
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: original podcast, The Roxanne Gay Agenda, The Bad Feminist Podcast

735
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,959
Speaker 1: of Your Dreams, Every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app,

736
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. From Cavalry Audio,

737
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: comes the new true crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. I

738
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 1: always wanted to know what it felt like. We killed

739
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 1: somebody and started laughing. Prosecutors described him as a serial killer,

740
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: savant kicking up these girls, getting him in a position

741
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: of vulnerability. When he got ahold of their neck, that

742
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: was it. I'm Caroline Asia, a journalist and lifelong resident

743
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: at the Pacific Northwest. I grew up near the banks

744
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: of the Green River and in the shadow of the

745
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: Killer that bears its name? Did you bring the camera

746
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: one time? Just one he started fantasizing about having sex

747
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: with it his mother, and he fantasized about killing her.

748
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 1: But this podcast isn't only about tracking down the killer.

749
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: It's about the victims. We stayed in the woods. He

750
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: always liked to go into woods, all of the kind

751
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: of strange you know how it feels about prostitutes. Listen

752
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: to The Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app,

753
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Executive

754
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: producer Paris Hilton brings back the hit podcast How Men Think.

755
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: And that's good news for anyone that is confused by men,

756
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 1: which is basically everyone get an inside look at what

757
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: goes on in the mind of men from the men themselves.

758
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: It's real talk, straight from the source. How Men Think

759
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 1: podcast is exactly what we need to figure them out.

760
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: It's going to be fun and formative and probably a

761
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: bit scary at times because we're literally going inside the

762
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 1: minds of men. As much as we like to think

763
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: all men are the same, they're actually very different. Each week,

764
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 1: a celebrity guest host provides honest advice in his area

765
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: of expertise. When I agreed to do this reboot, I

766
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: had a few conditions. No sugarcoating, no mind games, and

767
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: absolutely no man splaining. Men are hard enough to understand

768
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: without the mind games. Listen to How Men Think on

769
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you

770
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. All right, welcome to it could happen

771
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: here a podcast about things falling apart and also sometimes

772
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: about how things have been falling apart for a while now.

773
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: And today we're going to talk about how things were

774
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: also bad in falling apart in the two thousands, which

775
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: a profoundly cursed time period. And specifically we're going to

776
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,439
Speaker 1: talk about I think a part of the anti war

777
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: movement that does not get much attention um, which is

778
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 1: the portmeal Tourization resistance that happened sort of two and

779
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: with us today to talk about this is two people

780
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: who were part of this movement. If Juliana Newhauser, hello,

781
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 1: and Brendan Maslaska's done, Yeah, both of whom were organizers

782
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: and activists while this was going on. Yeah, and I

783
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,479
Speaker 1: thank thank you, thank you both for being here. Yeah,

784
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: thanks for having us. So, Yeah, as as I was

785
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: saying a bit in the intro, I think that this

786
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: is a part of the anti war movement that is

787
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: not very well known. I think I think a lot

788
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: of people know about the initial stuff happened in two

789
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: thousand three, and people might know about some of the

790
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: stuff that was happening against the war in Afghanistan but

791
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 1: right when it started, But I don't think most people

792
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: know that it like you know, even after jails and

793
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: three sort of doesn't work, that it continues and it

794
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 1: continues sort of informs that are that are very interesting,

795
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: and so I guess I want you to to start out,

796
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 1: I want to ask how we sort of got from

797
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: the early part of the anti war movement into this

798
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: and how usually got involved. I would say that there's

799
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: this narrative about the women against the word Iraq, that

800
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: there is the largest protests in human history, at least

801
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: at that point. I don't know if it's still true

802
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: against the invasion, and then it didn't work and everyone

803
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: kind of went home and ended there, and to a

804
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: certain extent that's true. But like you said, the people

805
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 1: that didn't go home went an interesting direction. And um

806
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: so at the time there were direct action was not

807
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: as acceptable as it is now. The protest this movement

808
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: was largely dominated either by UM big liberal coalitions or

809
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: PSL front groups that were basically indistinguishable and what they

810
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: actually did, which was basically nothing and in the best

811
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: of cases and then the worst of cases kind of

812
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 1: insurgency UM. But then there were small groups of people

813
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: that at when we saw that it didn't work, and

814
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 1: we saw that these giant, peaceful marches from one part

815
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: of town to another UM or voting for John Kerry

816
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: or whatever, it didn't work, that we started to look

817
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: for other options. Yeah, and uh, you know, I got involved.

818
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: You know, i'd say with the anti war movement. That

819
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: idea of how wars onjust was really taught to me

820
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: from a very young age. I mean, my parents were

821
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, children of the sixties, and they had family

822
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: members fighting in Vietnam and um, you know, friends dying

823
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: in Vietnam and we're against the protest back then. So

824
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: I grew up hearing these stories and of course stories

825
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: from family members, particularly one of my grandfather's, both of

826
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: them who were veterans in World War Two. One of

827
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: them was a marine in the you know, in the

828
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: Pacific Theater and still into his seventies, eighties, and nineties

829
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: until his final days, was just dealing with horrific PTSD

830
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: and had always taught me from a young age never

831
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: to get involved. So I you know, and I remember

832
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: when when the very clearly, um, you know, I'm sure

833
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: it's on everyone's minds now, and when the invasion of

834
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: Afghanistan started, when the invasion of a Rock started, I

835
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: was at that that massive demonstration in Washington, d C.

836
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: That Juliana just mentioned, and you know I ended up.

837
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm from Utica, New York. I went to a rural

838
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: high school, uh just outside of of Utica, you know,

839
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: russ Bell generally speaking, impoverished and also very conservative area

840
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: of New York. And you know, I had the recruiters

841
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: bother me, military recruiters in high school, recruiting my friends,

842
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: and they were just everywhere in the hallways. Uh So

843
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: it was very present, um with me. When I was younger.

844
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: I moved out to Olympia, Washington two thousand six, and

845
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: that's one a new student activist group, Students for Democratic Society,

846
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: was launched. That's how Juliana and I first met. We

847
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: were both in separate chapters of that new organization in

848
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest, and the port protests started just just

849
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: a few months after I moved out there in in

850
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: Olympia in two thousand six. So wait, just declare for

851
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: this for a second, because I've never quite been clear

852
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 1: on this history. So there was a second st like

853
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: students for Democratic Idea that was like unrelated to the

854
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: first one. Yeah, they're born briefly at the end of

855
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: the bushop Nater date. That that explains a lot of

856
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: things that it's very baffling. We're not that old. Yeah,

857
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: we're definitely in the in the second uh, you know,

858
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: the rebirth of it um. So you know, I think

859
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: it it took on some things in spirit um, you know,

860
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: but also was i'd say different in many ways, and

861
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: it was very active to me at least, it was

862
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: very exciting to be a member of the New STS

863
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: because they're over a dozen chapters in the Pacific Northwest

864
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: and it was a great way to connect with young

865
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: activists all over the US. So STS is emerging in

866
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: this time period. One of the other things I was

867
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 1: interested about is something someone you were talking about in

868
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: the in the early part of this which has to

869
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,359
Speaker 1: do with the way that these giants both the sort

870
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: of answer coalition PSL Frank Group and I guess the

871
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,439
Speaker 1: I s O was still around back then coalitions work

872
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: versus how like anything else worked. So so what was

873
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: was sts sort of like consciously set up and in

874
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: opposition to those groups. I don't think it was conscious,

875
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: but there was just like I mean these days, I

876
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: mean like there's a lot of controversy around PSL with

877
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: like anarchist versus tanky politics. None of that mattered at

878
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: that time, Like, none of that mattered. The only thing

879
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: that mattered was the answer, which is the PSO Front

880
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: group was completely fucking useless. Like they completely indistinguishable from

881
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: any peace police um liberal Democratic Front group. There was

882
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: literally no difference just in terms of their aesthetics maybe

883
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: like is there a donkey or a hammer and sickle

884
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: on something. That's the only difference we saw. So I

885
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: don't I don't think there was. It wasn't There wasn't

886
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: like a conscious like political opposite attention to it. It

887
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 1: was just like they're not doing anything, and and so

888
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: we had to look in another direction. Actually, you know,

889
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: it's hard to keep track of the alphabet soup of

890
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: authilitarian communist groups at times. But this was actually answer

891
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: for those who don't recall, it was a front group

892
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: for the Workers World Party the W which yeah, I

893
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: mean it's it's hard to keep track, right, Yeah, that's

894
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 1: the same thing, like I think, so, so okay, So

895
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:12,959
Speaker 1: for people who are sort of unaware of this, there's

896
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 1: a network of connected but sometimes feuding like weird Stalinist

897
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: cults that kind of kind of like they hold on

898
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: through like the eighties and nineties and they start sort

899
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 1: of rebuilding again around the anti war movements in that period.

900
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: That that's the pslist of the DUP. That's answer like

901
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,760
Speaker 1: and and I think that's like most like modern anti

902
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,320
Speaker 1: war groups are also still these people, which is incredibly

903
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: depressing something I want to talk a bit about towards

904
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 1: the end of this. But yeah, just for people who

905
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: have not spent the last half decade in the in

906
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:53,919
Speaker 1: the trenches of extremely weird anti war politics. So yeah, so,

907
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:58,399
Speaker 1: so I think we should get into how the sort

908
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: of the first action starts in Olympia. Yeah so, and

909
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: there were actually a couple of actions that happened um

910
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: in the year proceeding that, you know, before I moved

911
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: out to Olympia in two thousand and six. It was

912
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: not yet under the banner of PMR Port Militarization Resistance.

913
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 1: That was a name that was officially coined in uh

914
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, in in May and June of two thousand six.

915
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: And so, just to give you an idea, Olympia, it's

916
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: it's a college town or at the Evergreen State colleges there.

917
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: It's also the capital of Washington State, so you have

918
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: that going on. It's also a military town. It's a

919
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: little over twenty miles south of what we called Fort Lewis.

920
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: It's now called JBLM j BLOM or Joint Base Lewis McCord.

921
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: It's an Army and Air Force base now it's one base.

922
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: Um So, yet all these you know, different kind of elements,

923
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,760
Speaker 1: uh in you know, in tandem in in that town

924
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: and the public port. The port of Olympia is one

925
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,399
Speaker 1: of about seventy years so public ports in the state

926
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 1: of Washington, some of which are I mean they're used

927
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 1: for all kinds of things, you know, for commercial, private industry,

928
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: but also the military and the U. S. Government. Uh So, uh,

929
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,720
Speaker 1: you know, I heard from someone I don't even remember

930
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: who that the military was sending a ship to the

931
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: port of Olympia in late May of two thousand six,

932
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: And this happened for ten or so days, and it

933
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: was just kind of a natural instinct for a whole

934
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 1: bunch of us to go down to the Port of Olympia.

935
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: It was it was the war machine in our backyard,

936
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: and the idea was to just block the vehicles. It

937
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: started out with just like less than ten people number

938
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:58,760
Speaker 1: folks getting arrested, and that very rapidly culminated into larger

939
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: protests every single day um An active blockades people, uh,

940
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: those of us like Julian and myself and other folks

941
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: using civil disobedience or what we prefer to call civil

942
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: resistance to try and stop or at the very least

943
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: slow down these striker vehicles and to give folks an

944
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: idea of what a striker vehicle is. You can look

945
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: it up online, but it's kind of halfway between um,

946
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: you know, a tank and a humby. Doesn't have the

947
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: slats you know that a tank would have. It's you know.

948
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: And they were being used in both Iraq and Afghanistan

949
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: for for raids of residential areas. They were really on

950
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: the front lines of of the war in in both

951
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: those countries, and that's what we're trying to stop. I

952
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 1: only got involved later, um, because I wasn't living in

953
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: Olympia at the time. UM. I was in another STS chapter,

954
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: but my roommate was from Olympia and he had been

955
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 1: involved in that first round of protests in Olympia before

956
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: moving up to Ballingham. Yeah. So, like hearing his story

957
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: has got me very excited because just like, finally someone's

958
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: someone's doing something like someone's they're not just like you know,

959
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: it's like everything else was just so liberal, whether it's

960
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: marching from one place to another or writing to your

961
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: congress people or occupying their office. It was like asking

962
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: someone else to do something which you knew from the

963
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: beginning they were never going to do. And finally this

964
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: was finally someone was like actually getting into it. Um.

965
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: I think the first one of the things that happened

966
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: here was that um, they started to avoid UM. There's

967
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,959
Speaker 1: it's kind of a geographical thing, I think for people

968
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: who either don't know Washington Washington, or because they're normal

969
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: people don't know like the port areas of these cities

970
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: very well, because it's like like unless you're a long sherman, like,

971
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 1: why you would you go down to like the port

972
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: of Tacoma. UM. But they kept moving it around because

973
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: UM Olympia is also not very big and UM, so

974
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: it's there's really only two roads into the port, which

975
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 1: is very small, and so it was it's very easy

976
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: to block it. UM. And so then I think the

977
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: first time that I got involved UM was in two

978
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: thousands seven when they had moved it because they kept

979
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: moving it around to try and switch things up and

980
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: wait before the moving the ship around, No, it's like

981
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: they had to make a military ship men. They would UM.

982
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: It's like like once the ship it was in the port,

983
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: they would just I have to go through with it.

984
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: But then UM, you know it's like everything. Every six

985
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: months or so, they had to make another military shipment

986
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: and they would change the port usually each time, UM

987
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: to try and let basically to avoid us. It doesn't

988
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: seem like this is like normal craps UM. The first

989
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 1: time I had gone down was in UM Tacoma, which

990
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: is a much much much more industrialized port than Olympia.

991
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's like a big port, a more

992
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: normal port, I guess. And that one was honestly pretty crazy, um,

993
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: because you're just trapped in this giant industrial maze basically

994
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: at the mercy of the riot cops. The best success

995
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: we had was definitely at the Port of Olympia. UM.

996
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: I think in the in two thousand seven in Olympia

997
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: was definitely it's like the glory moment, which was when

998
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: people were able to on and off like actually hold

999
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,439
Speaker 1: the port and control it. The Yeah, and I wanna

1000
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, just emphasize that, like the one the military

1001
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: changing their approach right to avoid us so jumping from

1002
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: port to port with these different shipments. They actually went

1003
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: so far because we were so successful as a movement

1004
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest to ship striker vehicles by rail

1005
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: out of the Pacific Northwest and even going so far

1006
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 1: as to ports and Texas. I don't know, but you know,

1007
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: one one thing that we did is that we built

1008
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: up contacts with other activists with longshore workers all up

1009
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: and down the West coast in California. There are other

1010
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 1: activists were connected with in Texas, Hawaii, New Jersey, and

1011
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: New York. There is a desire in the anti war movement.

1012
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 1: Uh and and you know, in some extent maybe it's

1013
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 1: like it was small. But some folks in the labor movement,

1014
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: especially in Oakland or the i LW the you know

1015
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: longshore Workers Union, it's a lot more militant than say

1016
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 1: in a place like Olympia. UM. But yeah, I mean

1017
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: people wanted to replicate this model because, as Juliana said,

1018
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:14,959
Speaker 1: we wore successful in two thousand and seven, we shut

1019
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 1: down the port of Olympia for a total of it

1020
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: was essentially two days. They were not they're not shipping

1021
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 1: anything in or out. We set up blockades, were willing

1022
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: to throw down with the police in the street. And

1023
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that was cool about that blockade

1024
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: is that one of the there's two entrances, like I said,

1025
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: and one was completely blockaded and then the other one, UM,

1026
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: we had like a moving I don't really know what

1027
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: it was, but something with wheels that we can move

1028
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: in and out UM to open it up, and so

1029
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: then we could allow like civilian cargo to move in

1030
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: and out, but then like we feel it back in place,

1031
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: UM to block military shipments. So we were able to

1032
01:02:56,640 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: actually like stopped them from like what while in that

1033
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: oneted to come, we able to actually like stopped them

1034
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: from moving the self all together. Would you whentually cleared

1035
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: up by the police and they moved it, we would

1036
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: eventually get cleared out by the police. It's like we

1037
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,919
Speaker 1: were never able to It's like we're we we held

1038
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 1: it for two days. That those protests took place over

1039
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 1: a series of two weeks or more or less. Um,

1040
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 1: we were only able to fully hold it for two

1041
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: days before eventually they would clear us out. But one

1042
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 1: of the things is that it this does it did

1043
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: create problems for the army because when you work with

1044
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: a port, you know, it's like you've got like a

1045
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: certain time frame that you've contracted with the port to

1046
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: do whatever it is because you're going to do and

1047
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: it's not too happy if you take longer than you

1048
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: said you would or yeah, yeah. And the other thing

1049
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: I want to add is, you know, I think the

1050
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: other really important element with this whole movement going on

1051
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: is the Pacific Northwest was um it is specifically western

1052
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 1: Washington where the two of us were living. It was

1053
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 1: it was, you know, the center and in a sense

1054
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 1: it was the heart of the anti war movement in

1055
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 1: the country at that time. One because of this militant

1056
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: direct action that we were, you know, we were building

1057
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 1: up in the streets and trying to throw a wrench

1058
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: in the gears of the war machine to to at

1059
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: the veryly slowed down, which in some ways we did.

1060
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 1: But we're up against so much. But the other added element,

1061
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: of course is the g I resistance and the soldiers

1062
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 1: who are resisting. I've all also known as the Rock

1063
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,439
Speaker 1: Veterans against the War was very active there. They set

1064
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: up a g I coffeehouse across you know, literally across

1065
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 1: the street, uh, you know, the gates for one of

1066
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: the entrances for Fort Louis Um. There are a whole

1067
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 1: bunch of soldiers that we're going a wall. We had

1068
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 1: friends who were active duty soldiers who had fought in

1069
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, Iraq and Afghanistan that were a wall and

1070
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 1: they were hiding, you know, refusing to go back into

1071
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 1: the striker brigades that joined us in Portan militarization resistance. Uh.

1072
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 1: There are a whole, you know, long list of soldiers

1073
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: that were very publicly saying, you know, I'm refusing to

1074
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: fight in Iraq or Afghanistan for you know, various reasons.

1075
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 1: And so we are very much connected with this movement too.

1076
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: And I think the higher ups in the military, they're

1077
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: they're hyper aware of that. They studied us very well, um,

1078
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 1: you know, to the point of actually spying on us.

1079
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: So that's like a whole other element of this story too.

1080
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: Is one of the things that I've heard from talking

1081
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 1: to other people who were involved in this was that like, wow,

1082
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,919
Speaker 1: like during these protests, like the level of police militarization

1083
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 1: just like skyrocketed, And like I remember were I was

1084
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: talking friend about this, it was like, you know, if

1085
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: you go back and look at like old system of

1086
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 1: a down videos, you know, they'll they'lly'll have these things. Yeah,

1087
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:08,520
Speaker 1: you'll see these you see these riot police and like

1088
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 1: you look at them and it's like these people they

1089
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: look so much less armored than like the people that

1090
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: we have now. And one of the things that I

1091
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 1: thought was interesting about this was that like this is

1092
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: I think one of the points where you start getting

1093
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 1: the modern riot police showing up that are just like,

1094
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, completely encased in like armor. And Yeah, I

1095
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: don't talk about just like the police response to this,

1096
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: because I think that's that's another thing. I think I

1097
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: think there's never there's a kind of a tendency to

1098
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 1: sort of project back what the police look like, just

1099
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 1: onto the whole history of police and I think it's

1100
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's gotten worse even in the last

1101
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 1: twenty years. Yeah, I mean, so I lived downtown in

1102
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: Olympia and probably just like a six minute walk away

1103
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: from the Port of Olympia and and also very convenient,

1104
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: like just a few blocks away from the police station.

1105
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 1: So so lucky us. So we actually saw, you know,

1106
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: we could see from the front of down on the road,

1107
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: down the sidewalk from the front of our house. Uh,

1108
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 1: some of the military shipments going by, and we we

1109
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 1: we did see that absolutely, and at at times it

1110
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: was it was terrifying. I mean I lived in an

1111
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: activis house we jokingly called h Q because that's just

1112
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: you know where because of its proximity to the port.

1113
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 1: That's where a number of us were having meetings, uh,

1114
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 1: you know, around these protests early on in two thousand six,

1115
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: and um, yeah, I mean we like they look like

1116
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 1: RoboCop and it's something I had I you know, I

1117
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 1: hadn't like I had been to like mass marches and

1118
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 1: demonstrations like the RNC protests and d NC protests in Boston,

1119
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: New York and like in Washington, d c uh and

1120
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 1: so I would see these like riot cops, but they

1121
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,920
Speaker 1: were I mean ubiquitous in the support protests. It was

1122
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 1: like a whole army of them that was sent out.

1123
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 1: I mean when Juliana said that things got kind of

1124
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: crazy at the Port of Tacoma protests, I mean there

1125
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 1: was like a police riot, you know, like the cops

1126
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,639
Speaker 1: went absolutely nuts, are shooting people with tear gas and

1127
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 1: pepper balls and and brutalizing people. I had never before

1128
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 1: witnessed anything like that. And it got to the point

1129
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 1: in you know, in Olympia where we we kind of

1130
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 1: knew early on that we were being traced by the

1131
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 1: police to the extent where you know, one friend of

1132
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: ours was followed from our house to the bus station

1133
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 1: to take a bus to school by the police and

1134
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: then was stopped and essentially assaulted by them on the street.

1135
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:48,640
Speaker 1: And we had another fellow activists and you know, a

1136
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 1: roommate of mine who is going out to driving out

1137
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:55,959
Speaker 1: with a few friends, uh few fellow activists from Olympia

1138
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:58,680
Speaker 1: to Aberdeen, about an hour's drive. So Aberdeen, there's a

1139
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 1: port of grays Harbor there, pretty conservative small town. It's

1140
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 1: where Kurt Cobain is from, home of the famous Kurt

1141
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: Cobain teams. McDonald's. They served billions and and billions served

1142
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 1: and that one McDonald's and Kurt Cobain's McDonald's. But yeah,

1143
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 1: I mean the you know, they they were they were following.

1144
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 1: They had orders the Washington State Patrol two, um, you know,

1145
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 1: pull over a car full full of known anarchists. There

1146
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 1: was alert gone out to all the police departments. They

1147
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 1: pulled them. They pulled him over, they made him walk

1148
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 1: the line. He was had you know, wasn't drinking and

1149
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 1: no drugs, like nothing in his system. But they he

1150
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: was driving under like one mile per hour under the

1151
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:49,640
Speaker 1: speed limit. They arrested him for d d W I

1152
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: you know, eventually fought the chargers sued um uh and

1153
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: you know what a big settlement out of all that.

1154
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 1: But that's just one example of many of the lengths

1155
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: at the police would go to. It was pretty severe.

1156
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: Even there's a house of a bunch of anarchists, younger

1157
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 1: anarchists called the pitch Pipe Info Shop in Tacoma, and

1158
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:12,759
Speaker 1: that was also a big target. The police were swarming

1159
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 1: around them all the time. They had like cameras set

1160
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,760
Speaker 1: up like specifically just outside the Infra shop, Like there

1161
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:20,840
Speaker 1: weren't surrounds cameras there before, but then it was like,

1162
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 1: oh well, just conveniently put them on this one specific

1163
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: street corner. Yeah. I think like that was one of

1164
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:28,760
Speaker 1: the things I was reading about this is you have

1165
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 1: that stuff. And then also I think one of the

1166
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 1: steerest parts of this is that like Army intelligence gets

1167
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 1: involved and yeah, do you want to talk about the

1168
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 1: man named quote unquote John Jacob, who was in fact

1169
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:44,719
Speaker 1: not that Yeah, so, uh, you know, I'm curious what

1170
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: what memories you have of our our good dear friend

1171
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: John Jacob Juliana. I don't think I ever actually knew

1172
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 1: him in person, but he was the moderator of the

1173
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: List Serve, wasn't he. Yes, he's one of the moderators

1174
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 1: of our list Serve now that I look back on him,

1175
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 1: like the apport militarization resistance, the sirup with always just

1176
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: like this dramatic ship show, and it's like, looking back

1177
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 1: on it, I was like, oh, a cop that did

1178
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 1: nothing that absolutely nothing to like established order or uh

1179
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:27,120
Speaker 1: I if that was on purpose? Yeah, so I think

1180
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 1: there's definitely something that happened like you know, looking back

1181
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 1: from our vantage point today, it's like, Okay, things make

1182
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 1: a little more sense at the time though, And we're

1183
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 1: in this movement, right and so that means like meeting

1184
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,639
Speaker 1: people where they're at, we find all kinds of people

1185
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 1: that would like want to join the movement like I,

1186
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:46,759
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, like active duty soldiers that were joining.

1187
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:50,720
Speaker 1: So I met this guy named John Jacob and he

1188
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 1: sent an email out to me. I was one of

1189
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:55,799
Speaker 1: the contacts for the Olympia STS group and it's like, hey,

1190
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:58,599
Speaker 1: you know, there's kind of like a parent organization that's

1191
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: some old like elder activists are in, uh to kind

1192
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 1: of mentor us called Movement for a Democratic Society. Very small,

1193
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 1: never really took off, but like I'm interested in getting involved.

1194
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:11,800
Speaker 1: We met up in public and he seemed like an

1195
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 1: alright guy. I mean he was, um, you know, forty

1196
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 1: ish early forties. He had told me, like you know,

1197
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:21,679
Speaker 1: been in the military for years and he actually still

1198
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:25,719
Speaker 1: worked at Fort Lewis, so he was always open about that,

1199
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:29,880
Speaker 1: but it only went that far. He didn't ever tell

1200
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,520
Speaker 1: us what he actually did there, and it wasn't abnormal

1201
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 1: for you know, we have many folks that worked active duty,

1202
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:40,759
Speaker 1: you know, on base and civilian civilian roles or soldiers.

1203
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:44,679
Speaker 1: As I mentioned that we're in port militarization resistance. So

1204
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 1: he gets involved, and he gets really involved with port

1205
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: militarization resistance. He goes to protests, He gets pretty close

1206
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 1: with this group of anarchists I mentioned who lived in Tacoma, UM,

1207
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 1: and he seemed like a really solid guy to to

1208
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:02,040
Speaker 1: most of us. UM. And you know, things happen as

1209
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: as we progress, and you know, as a military responded

1210
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 1: to our uh you know how effective we wore in

1211
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 1: the anti war movement and the g I resistance movement

1212
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 1: by changing their tactics. We noticed that Okay, when we

1213
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:22,720
Speaker 1: first started the protests, UM, we we had the ability

1214
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: to catch the police by surprise by setting up you know,

1215
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:29,639
Speaker 1: a blockade here, we're having a surprise action there at

1216
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 1: this time, or this port, etcetera, etcetera. And as time progressed,

1217
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,240
Speaker 1: we found out that you know, we were having these

1218
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:39,679
Speaker 1: making these decisions for tactics in our strategy. We thought

1219
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 1: that we're in private and then for whatever reason, the

1220
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 1: police kind of knew about where we were going to

1221
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 1: be before we even showed up. And that I remember

1222
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:53,640
Speaker 1: that clearly happening in two thousand seven the Port of Olympia. Yeah,

1223
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:56,680
Speaker 1: and the COMMA. There was a lot of things like that.

1224
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: Like there is one time when there are like some

1225
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:03,639
Speaker 1: people who had a meeting in a closed room, like

1226
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 1: all there they had taken the batteries out of their

1227
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 1: cell phones. They had simply written on the whiteboard the

1228
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 1: time and place they were going to have their next meeting,

1229
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 1: which is going to be in a diner near the port.

1230
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 1: And so that way if like if for any reason

1231
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:21,520
Speaker 1: the room was bugged, it wouldn't be caught up because

1232
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 1: it was just written on a board. And then it

1233
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 1: was like a small meeting too, So it's like there

1234
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 1: were and then when they got to that dinner, there's

1235
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 1: like full of cops like clearly waiting for them. Like

1236
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 1: at that point, it's like it was very clear there

1237
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 1: was some some level of infiltration involved. Yeah, And I

1238
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 1: think we from early on, like you know, we we

1239
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 1: knew our history. I mean, you know, one of our

1240
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 1: our fellow activists and p Mars and a friend of ours,

1241
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 1: Peter Boehmer's professor at the Evergreen State College. He was

1242
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,640
Speaker 1: in the original sts back in the sixties, and you know,

1243
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 1: he was essentially a political prisoner for a couple of

1244
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: years in both Massachusetts and California. UM, I mean the

1245
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 1: FEDS essentially tried to assassinate him. Um back in in

1246
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 1: the seventies when he was active in the anti war

1247
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 1: movement in San Diego. Like we knew, you know, former

1248
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 1: Black Panthers, and we read our history, so we knew

1249
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:21,559
Speaker 1: about the history of cointelpro the counterintelligence program of the

1250
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:24,599
Speaker 1: six season seventies and the war on the anti war

1251
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:29,919
Speaker 1: and civil rights and black power, American Indian movements, etcetera. UM,

1252
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:33,800
Speaker 1: so we knew, you know, just intuitively early on. Uh.

1253
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 1: But there's one thing that happened in particular which prompted

1254
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 1: some of us to file for a public records request

1255
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 1: with the City of Olympia and another activists walking down

1256
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:46,640
Speaker 1: the street in Olympia. I'm a member of the Wobby's

1257
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 1: Industrial Workers of the World Union, and we had like

1258
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,519
Speaker 1: one of those metal newspaper boxes downtown and it was

1259
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:56,000
Speaker 1: locked to a poll um, you know, with a bike lock.

1260
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:58,280
Speaker 1: And there are some city workers there with a pickup

1261
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:02,600
Speaker 1: truck and they're cutting the to this newspaper box and

1262
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 1: they threw it in their pickup truck and so are

1263
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 1: you know this friend of ours was there. I was like,

1264
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 1: what the hell, what are you doing? What's going on?

1265
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: And one of the workers just kind of strugged and

1266
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, the police told us to

1267
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 1: do this, and they drove off like they stole you know,

1268
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: are essentially like our union property or whatever. UM. So

1269
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 1: we had you know, our our lawyer friend Larry Hildes

1270
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,639
Speaker 1: and the National Lawyer's Guild you know, call and kind

1271
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 1: of threatened the city and and then a number of

1272
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:30,599
Speaker 1: us got together like, hey, you know, let's do like

1273
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:34,360
Speaker 1: a public records requests UM with the City of of

1274
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 1: Olympia freedom of information law right, and so we did.

1275
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:43,559
Speaker 1: And the request was, you know, just requesting any all

1276
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 1: information the city had UM, any exchanges communications by email,

1277
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:53,520
Speaker 1: etcetera UM between the police and like other agencies about anarchists,

1278
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 1: I WW Students for a Democratic Society UM. And their

1279
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:02,559
Speaker 1: initials that the city clerk did yielded something like thirty

1280
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 1: thousand responses. So she's like, okay, I gotta narrow this down.

1281
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:09,759
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I was working on the request

1282
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 1: at the time, and for some reason, like I don't

1283
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:17,000
Speaker 1: know where report protests are near military based communications between

1284
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 1: the army not thinking anything. And so the initial responses

1285
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 1: who actually got um, you know, maybe a hundred a

1286
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 1: hundred thirty or so different documents, just copies of emails, etcetera. That, um,

1287
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:35,160
Speaker 1: we're little puzzle pieces for this massive puzzle. And it

1288
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 1: was just a few of them. Uh. And it was,

1289
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, there was an email talking about our guy

1290
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 1: in the Navy going to a p MR meeting to

1291
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 1: get some intel. Uh. There's you know, all kinds of

1292
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 1: things like that. There are a few emails in particular. Um,

1293
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,960
Speaker 1: and the email address was something like John John J.

1294
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:58,679
Speaker 1: Towery at you know, Army dot us whatever the email

1295
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 1: address was. So, well, there's a crew of activists that

1296
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 1: got together, put their heads together, did some research quietly

1297
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:08,839
Speaker 1: for a few months, and eventually found out by publicly

1298
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 1: accessible information like voter registration records and also finding out

1299
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:18,080
Speaker 1: something about like a motorcycle club called like the I

1300
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:20,639
Speaker 1: don't know, like the Brown Beauque Club or the Brown

1301
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:24,080
Speaker 1: Butt Club or something and and the like. Found out

1302
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:26,480
Speaker 1: that this John Towery guy that was in this motorcycle

1303
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:30,080
Speaker 1: club and had his you know, was registered to vote

1304
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 1: outside of Tacoma, in this town there. It was actually

1305
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 1: John Jacob. It was this guy that we thought was

1306
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 1: a fellow activist, an anarchist um and and a friend,

1307
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:43,320
Speaker 1: you know. I thought he was a personal friend of mine.

1308
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 1: Turns out he was actually essentially an Army intelligence officer

1309
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 1: working for something called the Force Protection Unit at uh

1310
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 1: At Joint Face Joint based Lewis McCord, and also working

1311
01:18:56,439 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 1: with a whole list of different agencies and turned out

1312
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:04,280
Speaker 1: to be like a massive surveillance network that was national

1313
01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:07,519
Speaker 1: in scope. This guy was sent by the Army along

1314
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:11,240
Speaker 1: with many others to infiltrate us, to aspire on us,

1315
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 1: and to disrupt us. Was huge. Yeah, And that that's

1316
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:16,719
Speaker 1: one of the things that I've always always really interesting

1317
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:18,639
Speaker 1: about this is like, so, like I I learned about

1318
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:22,439
Speaker 1: poor militarization resistance basically because I was like poking around

1319
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 1: the history of like informists and I ran into this

1320
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 1: and I was like what because and then that was

1321
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:28,240
Speaker 1: what I thought. One of the things I thought was

1322
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:30,840
Speaker 1: really interesting about this is that like, like I think

1323
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:33,639
Speaker 1: that this chapter of the anti war movement is even

1324
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,240
Speaker 1: on the left, is like not very well known, but

1325
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 1: like the seriousness which the army seems to have taken.

1326
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 1: It is like, is really remarkable. Yeah, I'm wondering what

1327
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 1: you to think about that. One thing we have to

1328
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 1: emphasize is is that we were not a large group

1329
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:52,559
Speaker 1: of people. Like, um, the number of people who are

1330
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 1: actively involved in Portmoloditisation assistance at its speak was how

1331
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:00,679
Speaker 1: many people do you think it was, Brandon? It depends.

1332
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 1: I mean I'd say they're probably like at its peak

1333
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 1: maybe probably four ye to fifty people that would like

1334
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:10,799
Speaker 1: consistently show up to things. You know, maybe a slightly smaller,

1335
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 1: very core group, but we would have demonstrations with like

1336
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 1: and then like four people you know, yeah, and like

1337
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 1: that would be like the max like there is it's

1338
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:27,200
Speaker 1: like there are like the peaceful like kind of like

1339
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:29,679
Speaker 1: support actions. You know, you would get like a couple

1340
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 1: hundred people and then like for the stuff like where

1341
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 1: it's like the first night that that the part of

1342
01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:41,080
Speaker 1: the entrance to the part of Olympia was occupied, it

1343
01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 1: would be like, um, these were not these were not

1344
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 1: very large groups of people. Um. I feel like and

1345
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:51,760
Speaker 1: like I said, it's like one thing that we need

1346
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:54,360
Speaker 1: to keep in mind was that, um, the peace police

1347
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:58,720
Speaker 1: were much stronger back then than they are now nowadays.

1348
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:01,639
Speaker 1: Lating like as we saw last year, it's like people

1349
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:05,640
Speaker 1: in the US of learn to throw down, but that

1350
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 1: was not the case at the time. And so this

1351
01:21:09,479 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 1: is a very very small group of people. UM. I

1352
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 1: think we accomplished a lot from with how small it was. UM.

1353
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 1: If it had been larger, it would have accomplished way more. UM.

1354
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:32,639
Speaker 1: But even that small core of like people with maybe

1355
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 1: expanding out to like a larger group of a couple

1356
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:42,599
Speaker 1: of hundred, had them that scared that they went that far.

1357
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:45,240
Speaker 1: They're trying to disrupt it. Yeah, And and this is

1358
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 1: one of the things I've been thinking about a lot

1359
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 1: recently of this needs to be a very consistent thing,

1360
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:54,920
Speaker 1: which is it like the two things that are guaranteed

1361
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 1: to like just have a hammer drop on you if

1362
01:21:58,280 --> 01:22:02,920
Speaker 1: you touch them is pipeline and ports. And that that

1363
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:05,600
Speaker 1: was that was something you know, we we've talked a

1364
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:10,040
Speaker 1: lot on here about pipeline protests. UM. But I was

1365
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:15,839
Speaker 1: interested in what you two think about, because, yeah, this

1366
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:20,360
Speaker 1: this is like of very particular moment right now in

1367
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:23,599
Speaker 1: what you're dealing with all these logistics chain failures. And

1368
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 1: I was wondering if if you do think there's anything

1369
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 1: that we can learn from how your versions of the

1370
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:34,680
Speaker 1: sort of of port demonstrations worked for potentially trying to

1371
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:38,560
Speaker 1: leverage that in the future, especially with like contract negotiations

1372
01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:42,840
Speaker 1: for port workers in Oakland coming up next year. Yeah,

1373
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 1: that's a great question. You know, it's this old saying

1374
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:49,280
Speaker 1: and the I w W direct action gets goods, right,

1375
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:51,200
Speaker 1: and I think it really boils down to that it's

1376
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 1: building up uh, you know, mass movements and social movements

1377
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 1: from below that rely under wrecked action, that rely on

1378
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:06,640
Speaker 1: civil resistance, civil disobedience. Um. Yeah, and the pipeline protests

1379
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 1: that have been ongoing where Indigenous people have been on

1380
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:13,120
Speaker 1: the front lines of that for many many years now.

1381
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:16,720
Speaker 1: I mean, the kind of repression and surveillance that we

1382
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:21,800
Speaker 1: face really pales in comparison to the kinds of you know,

1383
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 1: surveillance of repression that folks were facing at Standing Rock

1384
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:30,640
Speaker 1: for example. Um. You know, I think, of course, one

1385
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:33,800
Speaker 1: of the well one of the main differences is that

1386
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:37,960
Speaker 1: it was primarily the military, you know, with us, right,

1387
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 1: that was uh surveilling us because this is very specifically

1388
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:46,759
Speaker 1: you know, a war issue and a military issue. Um.

1389
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:51,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I think, um, you know, like

1390
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:53,880
Speaker 1: I think there's a big questions like what what do

1391
01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 1: we have to do that's that's new? And to me,

1392
01:23:56,520 --> 01:23:59,120
Speaker 1: I say, you know, for both that kind of militant action,

1393
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,760
Speaker 1: but also for the labor or movements, like, it's not

1394
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:04,720
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There

1395
01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:09,600
Speaker 1: are things that have tried and true track record of

1396
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:12,840
Speaker 1: getting the goods and that is you know, these more

1397
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:18,360
Speaker 1: disruptive kind of actions and movements. Um, And so one

1398
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:20,839
Speaker 1: of them would be you know, I guess my suggestion

1399
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 1: would be to like go back to the basics. And

1400
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:26,879
Speaker 1: even like I would say, now, you know this, remember

1401
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:30,680
Speaker 1: this at a time when like Facebook was around, right, like,

1402
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:33,439
Speaker 1: but we weren't really using that for our organizing. We

1403
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:36,880
Speaker 1: really relied on like face to face meetings, you know,

1404
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 1: phone calls and building up trust with people and building

1405
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 1: up our capacity to like take actions and make change.

1406
01:24:44,280 --> 01:24:46,839
Speaker 1: You know, I think I'm not saying throw out everything

1407
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 1: that you know that at least some of the good

1408
01:24:49,080 --> 01:24:51,599
Speaker 1: that social media has to offer, but like I think

1409
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:54,919
Speaker 1: going beyond that and going back to these older tactics.

1410
01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:57,599
Speaker 1: And then for the labor movement, like the big thing is,

1411
01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:00,439
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just like a bigger question or

1412
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:05,320
Speaker 1: for mainstream unions in particular, I mean they're that the

1413
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 1: whole idea of like union contracts is that workers also

1414
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,599
Speaker 1: lose a lot. Yeah, they get some things, but uh,

1415
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:16,800
Speaker 1: business owners and bosses have rights carved out in in

1416
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 1: those contracts. And with the longshore workers, I mean the

1417
01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:22,240
Speaker 1: difficult thing with that, of course, is like there would

1418
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:25,799
Speaker 1: be some symbolic strikes that of course, like longshore workers

1419
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 1: have done and continue to do, you know, around like

1420
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 1: the war Iraq historically supporting movie a bou Jamal maydea, etcetera,

1421
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:38,280
Speaker 1: like in Oakland, um, but they have some things for

1422
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 1: that written into their contracts, and you know, for all

1423
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:44,600
Speaker 1: these other like unions it's like, well, you know, we

1424
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:49,000
Speaker 1: can't strike at all for for the next two years,

1425
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:51,600
Speaker 1: the next three years, whatever the life of the contract is. Like,

1426
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:53,920
Speaker 1: I think it's a bigger question and challenge for the

1427
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 1: labor movement to move beyond that and not be putting

1428
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:02,400
Speaker 1: this strait jacket of of contracts like that. Yeah, I

1429
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 1: think that that particularly like the no no strike clause

1430
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 1: part of contracts, I take an interesting thing because it

1431
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:12,599
Speaker 1: I don't know there's not. I mean, there are some

1432
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:17,680
Speaker 1: unions that will actually do stuff around fighting it, but

1433
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,240
Speaker 1: mostly people just sort of don't care. And I think

1434
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:24,080
Speaker 1: you wind up in a situation where it seems like

1435
01:26:24,120 --> 01:26:26,960
Speaker 1: you kind of have to plan your tactics around when

1436
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 1: contract negotiations are happening, because otherwise you can't actually get

1437
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:32,160
Speaker 1: people to do anything more in like a one day

1438
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:35,599
Speaker 1: symbolic strike. Yeah, and or you know the challenges, like,

1439
01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:38,720
Speaker 1: you know, we have this great American tradition that's not

1440
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:42,000
Speaker 1: unique to the US, it's universal really, and it's one

1441
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:46,080
Speaker 1: that resonates with me breaking the law right and like

1442
01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:49,280
Speaker 1: we're you know, we're like civil disobedience. That is that

1443
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:51,599
Speaker 1: what we are doing in the streets and blocking the ports.

1444
01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:53,599
Speaker 1: We were breaking the lawn. We knew it. And that's

1445
01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:56,639
Speaker 1: what the civil rights movement, the Black freedom movement did

1446
01:26:56,800 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 1: in in the nineties sixties. But like we have recent

1447
01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 1: examples of workers breaking the law and mass like the

1448
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:09,760
Speaker 1: West Virginia teacher strikes that happened a few years ago,

1449
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:13,559
Speaker 1: Like teachers in every single county in that state went

1450
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:17,160
Speaker 1: on strike. They broke the law, and and they want

1451
01:27:17,280 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 1: something out of that. And I think that's what we

1452
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:23,560
Speaker 1: really need to encourage people. Is this idea of breaking

1453
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 1: out of like the norm and and breaking the laws

1454
01:27:26,439 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 1: which you know, the laws that are in place, which

1455
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:32,760
Speaker 1: are not there to you know, expand our freedom there

1456
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:36,599
Speaker 1: there too contracted. Yeah, one of one of my friends

1457
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 1: kind of joke about what was the exact line. It was,

1458
01:27:40,400 --> 01:27:42,400
Speaker 1: it's it's only illegal if you get caught and it

1459
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:44,640
Speaker 1: only matters if you lose, which I think is a

1460
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 1: good way of thinking about both breaking. Yeah, and you know, yeah,

1461
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:54,760
Speaker 1: I think it's also like it's worth mentioning that like

1462
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:58,960
Speaker 1: the other side the law doesn't matter to them at all,

1463
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:01,080
Speaker 1: Like they just tear it up and like light it

1464
01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:04,880
Speaker 1: on fire constantly. So don't don't bind yourself if if

1465
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:07,200
Speaker 1: you can, if you can not get caught and not

1466
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:09,760
Speaker 1: like go to prison for the rest of your life.

1467
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:13,000
Speaker 1: Don't bind yourself by a bunch of like paper that

1468
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:17,880
Speaker 1: the other side just doesn't care about. Yeah, And that's

1469
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:21,040
Speaker 1: an excellent point because that's the big thing, you know,

1470
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:24,560
Speaker 1: with the army and law enforcement in general, like surveillance

1471
01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:27,160
Speaker 1: of us they were in the police, just their actions,

1472
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:31,200
Speaker 1: their brazen actions on the street, like the riot police. Um,

1473
01:28:31,320 --> 01:28:34,880
Speaker 1: they were just breaking the law all the time. They

1474
01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:40,120
Speaker 1: absolutely have a deep visceral hatred of the Bill of Rights,

1475
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 1: of civil rights and civil liberties. And so there were

1476
01:28:43,280 --> 01:28:47,040
Speaker 1: a number of, you know, court cases that sprung out

1477
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 1: of um, you know, this movement. There was a case

1478
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:55,559
Speaker 1: called Panagocus Vitari another Juliana Panagoucus was another PMR member

1479
01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:58,800
Speaker 1: co plaintiff in that case. And you know, is it

1480
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 1: a case against the army that you know, we we

1481
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:04,400
Speaker 1: waged and brought up to the Ninth Circuit Court of

1482
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:08,160
Speaker 1: Appeals and you know, eventually lost and and it could

1483
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:10,080
Speaker 1: have brought it to the Supreme Court but didn't. But

1484
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:12,760
Speaker 1: you know, like the the other thing is like the

1485
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:15,800
Speaker 1: violation of the posse commentatous Act. It was a whole

1486
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:17,439
Speaker 1: other thing. You know, we don't have to get like

1487
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:21,040
Speaker 1: so tied up into like the legalistic thing. But like

1488
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:23,880
Speaker 1: the point, your point is valid, Like they don't care

1489
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:26,800
Speaker 1: about the laws that are already there. They'll they'll just

1490
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:30,160
Speaker 1: intentionally break them, break their own laws that they have

1491
01:29:30,160 --> 01:29:32,960
Speaker 1: set up, and you know, they'll just get a slap

1492
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:35,800
Speaker 1: on the wrist because that's really all that's all that

1493
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 1: happens to them. I think, I think, I think that's

1494
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 1: a good note to end on. Break the law. It's fake,

1495
01:29:42,200 --> 01:29:45,519
Speaker 1: it's also bad. Um. Do you two have anything you

1496
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:48,240
Speaker 1: want to plug other than that, other than you know,

1497
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:57,599
Speaker 1: encouraging people to break the cage your local port. Yeah, yeah,

1498
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:01,719
Speaker 1: I mean I I think it's you know, I guess

1499
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 1: just encourage people to do as you know. It sounds

1500
01:30:05,080 --> 01:30:07,240
Speaker 1: like what we're doing by having us on the show.

1501
01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 1: And like there are some in our very recent history, um,

1502
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:15,799
Speaker 1: you know, movements and winds that we all as activists

1503
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: today can still learn from. And I think part of that, um,

1504
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to call us elders because

1505
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:24,320
Speaker 1: we're not that old, but like one part of that

1506
01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:27,840
Speaker 1: is like making sure like our movements are still like

1507
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:31,800
Speaker 1: a multi generational and like we we learned from each

1508
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:35,439
Speaker 1: other and also as as Juliana and I did, like

1509
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:38,519
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, like we learned from the movements of

1510
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:43,680
Speaker 1: the past, sts, the Black Panthers, the Black Freedom Movement, etcetera. Um,

1511
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 1: but there's a lot that you know, these these struggles

1512
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:52,120
Speaker 1: I think have to offer us today. All Right, thank

1513
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:54,000
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you both for talking coming down and

1514
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:58,639
Speaker 1: talking with us. You're for having us, Thank you. Well,

1515
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:00,479
Speaker 1: this is this is when it could happen here. Uh

1516
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:04,759
Speaker 1: find us at happened here pod on Twitter, Instagram, and

1517
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:07,040
Speaker 1: the rest of our stuff is that close on media

1518
01:31:07,280 --> 01:31:11,960
Speaker 1: at the same somewhat accursed social media places. I don't

1519
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:16,479
Speaker 1: know why I'm saying somewhat, They're just accursed. Yeah, see

1520
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:27,800
Speaker 1: you next time whenever. That is what's up, guys. I'm

1521
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 1: a Shop Aloud and I am Troy Millions and we

1522
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:32,120
Speaker 1: are the host of the Earnier Leisure podcast where we

1523
01:31:32,200 --> 01:31:35,800
Speaker 1: break down business models and examine the latest trends and finance.

1524
01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:37,920
Speaker 1: We hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of

1525
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:40,639
Speaker 1: the biggest names of business, sport, and entertainment, from DJ

1526
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:43,599
Speaker 1: Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean,

1527
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:46,439
Speaker 1: our alumni list is expansive, listening as our guests reveal

1528
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:49,439
Speaker 1: their business models, hardships and triumphs and their respective fields.

1529
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 1: The knowledge is in death and the questions are always

1530
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:53,960
Speaker 1: delivered from your standpoint. We want to know what you

1531
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:56,759
Speaker 1: want to know. We talk to the legends of business,

1532
01:31:56,800 --> 01:31:59,479
Speaker 1: sports and entertainment about how they got their start and

1533
01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 1: most only, how to make their money. Earnie Alisia is

1534
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:04,559
Speaker 1: a college business class mixed with pop culture. I want

1535
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:06,840
Speaker 1: to learn about the real estate game. Unclear is how

1536
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 1: the stock market works. We got you interested in starting

1537
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:12,160
Speaker 1: a trucking company or vendor machine business. Not really sure

1538
01:32:12,200 --> 01:32:15,240
Speaker 1: about how taxes or credit work. We got it all covered.

1539
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:18,439
Speaker 1: The Earnie Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Ernie

1540
01:32:18,520 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 1: Leisure on the Black Effect Podcast Network. I heart Radio, app,

1541
01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:31,879
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern,

1542
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:35,200
Speaker 1: host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a

1543
01:32:35,280 --> 01:32:39,360
Speaker 1: lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts,

1544
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:44,000
Speaker 1: We controlled absolutely everything. He bribed judges and even helped

1545
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:47,040
Speaker 1: a hit man walk free, until one day when he

1546
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 1: started talking with the FBI and promised that he could

1547
01:32:50,439 --> 01:32:53,519
Speaker 1: take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying

1548
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:55,640
Speaker 1: to figure out why he flipped and what he was

1549
01:32:55,680 --> 01:32:58,880
Speaker 1: really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to

1550
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:01,640
Speaker 1: be true. There's Scott be something wrong with this. I

1551
01:33:01,640 --> 01:33:04,479
Speaker 1: wouldn't trust that guy. He looks like a little scum,

1552
01:33:04,520 --> 01:33:06,960
Speaker 1: big liar, stool pidgeon. He looked like what he was

1553
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:09,920
Speaker 1: or at. I can say with all certainty I think

1554
01:33:09,960 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 1: he's a hero because he didn't have to do what

1555
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 1: he did, and he did it anyway. The moment I

1556
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 1: put the wire around the first time, my life was over.

1557
01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:19,800
Speaker 1: If it ever got out, they would kill me. In

1558
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:22,920
Speaker 1: the heartbeat, listen to deep Cover on the I Heart

1559
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:26,440
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1560
01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 1: After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls

1561
01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 1: of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach pit.

1562
01:33:34,760 --> 01:33:37,920
Speaker 1: On the podcast nine O two one OMG joined Jenny

1563
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:40,479
Speaker 1: Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit

1564
01:33:40,560 --> 01:33:43,040
Speaker 1: series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh. From the

1565
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:46,519
Speaker 1: very beginning, we get to tell the fans all of

1566
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:49,519
Speaker 1: the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, so they

1567
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:52,120
Speaker 1: know what happened on camera obviously, but we can tell

1568
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:54,559
Speaker 1: them all the good stuff that happened off camera. Get

1569
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:57,360
Speaker 1: all the juicy details of every episode that you've been

1570
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:00,000
Speaker 1: wondering about for decades. As nine O two one oh,

1571
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:03,240
Speaker 1: super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny

1572
01:34:03,280 --> 01:34:06,760
Speaker 1: and Tory too reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from

1573
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:10,600
Speaker 1: Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates,

1574
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 1: you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the

1575
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:17,519
Speaker 1: entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you

1576
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:21,040
Speaker 1: remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we filmed

1577
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:24,400
Speaker 1: that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on

1578
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:27,120
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you

1579
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:36,479
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Welcome back to it could happen here,

1580
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:39,760
Speaker 1: the show about things not being great and maybe trying

1581
01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 1: to make them better. UM, I'm Robert Evans. Uh. This

1582
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:45,799
Speaker 1: week we got we have a special, little, little little

1583
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:49,320
Speaker 1: episode for you. UM, I'm gonna sit down and talk

1584
01:34:49,439 --> 01:34:53,280
Speaker 1: with Lucas Herndon. Um. Lucas, you are from New or

1585
01:34:53,360 --> 01:34:56,200
Speaker 1: you live in New Mexico at least, um, and you

1586
01:34:56,240 --> 01:34:57,800
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to me a bit about some stuff

1587
01:34:57,800 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 1: that's going on in your school boards. We just did

1588
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:02,720
Speaker 1: a two harder on fascist attempts to kind of take

1589
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:05,280
Speaker 1: over and dominate school boards around the country, and you've

1590
01:35:05,320 --> 01:35:07,479
Speaker 1: got some personal experience with that, so I wanted to

1591
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:09,719
Speaker 1: kind of just turn this over to you to start

1592
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:13,320
Speaker 1: us off. Yeah, thanks for Robert, thanks for having me

1593
01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:15,760
Speaker 1: on the show. UM. Yeah, my name is Lucas and

1594
01:35:15,840 --> 01:35:18,240
Speaker 1: I live in Las Cruces, New Mexico, which is in

1595
01:35:18,280 --> 01:35:19,840
Speaker 1: the southern part of the state. Were close to the

1596
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 1: border for people that are interested. UM, and yeah, like

1597
01:35:23,800 --> 01:35:26,960
Speaker 1: you know that my experience had happened last week is

1598
01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:32,639
Speaker 1: sort of the quintessential. It could happen here. Yeah exactly,

1599
01:35:33,200 --> 01:35:37,240
Speaker 1: lu LUs cruses. UM. Politically speaking, is actually a very

1600
01:35:37,240 --> 01:35:41,080
Speaker 1: progressive little time. I mean, in general New Mexico has

1601
01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:45,320
Speaker 1: been for what you know, however you consider the progressive

1602
01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:47,400
Speaker 1: or not. Is has been blue for quite a while.

1603
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:50,760
Speaker 1: Is in terms of like voting like it's not it's

1604
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:54,720
Speaker 1: not like Texas politically at least, right that's yeah exactly. Yeah,

1605
01:35:54,720 --> 01:35:57,639
Speaker 1: we voted for we voted for Bush the first time,

1606
01:35:58,320 --> 01:36:01,080
Speaker 1: but have voted blue every elect since two thousan four.

1607
01:36:01,400 --> 01:36:05,400
Speaker 1: Like federally, so in my little stretch of the of

1608
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:09,360
Speaker 1: the state, our congressional district has been read. But the

1609
01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:11,800
Speaker 1: city of Los Cruces, which is the like where the

1610
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:13,559
Speaker 1: biggest city in the southern part of the state, where

1611
01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:16,479
Speaker 1: the second biggest city in the state. UM, our city

1612
01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:20,400
Speaker 1: council has not only been democratic, but like progressively democratic.

1613
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:25,479
Speaker 1: UM we have UM as of this recent election. You know,

1614
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:27,880
Speaker 1: from the beginning of November, we now have an all

1615
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:32,880
Speaker 1: female city council. UM. There is at least we have

1616
01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 1: UM one one if not too trying to think. Sorry,

1617
01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:42,040
Speaker 1: Currently there are two UM folks on the city council

1618
01:36:42,040 --> 01:36:44,880
Speaker 1: have immigrated from Mexico in their life. UM, one will

1619
01:36:44,920 --> 01:36:49,160
Speaker 1: still be on. One is now running for Congress. Um

1620
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:52,960
Speaker 1: we have UM. The school board that currently is sitting

1621
01:36:53,160 --> 01:36:55,840
Speaker 1: is generally progressive, and the one we just elected, we

1622
01:36:55,960 --> 01:37:00,760
Speaker 1: just elected our first openly queer person onto that school board. UM.

1623
01:37:00,800 --> 01:37:03,559
Speaker 1: Our little group of of legislators that go up to

1624
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:07,120
Speaker 1: Santa Fe every year is very progressive. So again, just

1625
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:09,840
Speaker 1: to kind of reiterate, like Las Cruises, New Mexico, pretty

1626
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:13,840
Speaker 1: progressive little place. And yet at the school board meeting

1627
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:18,519
Speaker 1: last week, UM totally dominated by a public attendance of

1628
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:24,040
Speaker 1: very far right extremists, UM, spouting all kinds of nonsense

1629
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:26,400
Speaker 1: about all kinds of things. So yeah, it was pretty

1630
01:37:26,400 --> 01:37:28,640
Speaker 1: well yeah, and this, I mean, this has happened. This

1631
01:37:28,680 --> 01:37:31,600
Speaker 1: happened in Portland, Oregon, too, which is also famously I

1632
01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:35,600
Speaker 1: don't know, I wouldn't call Portland politics progressive but solidly democratic.

1633
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:38,559
Speaker 1: And the school board meeting gets taken over by by

1634
01:37:38,600 --> 01:37:42,160
Speaker 1: far right activists. This is a yeah, So when did

1635
01:37:42,200 --> 01:37:46,120
Speaker 1: you kind of first become aware of this? Well? So,

1636
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:49,360
Speaker 1: um it was it was a weird convergence of my

1637
01:37:49,439 --> 01:37:52,040
Speaker 1: personal and my and my private or I'm sorry, my

1638
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:57,240
Speaker 1: personal and my professional life where I UM, I work

1639
01:37:57,320 --> 01:37:59,680
Speaker 1: for an organization called progress Now in Mexico, so it's

1640
01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:04,519
Speaker 1: like do progressive politics for a living, but UM and

1641
01:38:04,840 --> 01:38:06,840
Speaker 1: a colleague who works for the a c LU here

1642
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:09,879
Speaker 1: had asked if I would go and help lend support

1643
01:38:10,360 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 1: to this gender inclusion policy that the school board was

1644
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:16,479
Speaker 1: going to be UM commenting on. They weren't voting on

1645
01:38:16,479 --> 01:38:18,200
Speaker 1: it that day. It was what's called the first reading,

1646
01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:21,559
Speaker 1: and she asked if I could go and if I could,

1647
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 1: you know, just speak, and I was like, yeah, absolutely,

1648
01:38:23,640 --> 01:38:25,479
Speaker 1: be happy too. So I was gonna go and and

1649
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:29,800
Speaker 1: talk about this in a i'm sorry professional capacity. And

1650
01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 1: then that day UM, as like before I went to that,

1651
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:37,679
Speaker 1: my daughter, who's in middle school, texted me a picture

1652
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:42,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of kids had on Monday of of last week,

1653
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:47,080
Speaker 1: which was like trans Awareness Week or Transvisibility Week. Some

1654
01:38:47,160 --> 01:38:50,280
Speaker 1: kids had shown up wearing trans flags and pride flags

1655
01:38:50,280 --> 01:38:54,120
Speaker 1: on that Monday. The following day, that Tuesday, some kids

1656
01:38:54,120 --> 01:38:57,680
Speaker 1: showed up wearing UM thin blue line flags. In in

1657
01:38:57,840 --> 01:39:02,640
Speaker 1: response like indirect response, UM, and in my daughter and

1658
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, my daughter is aware enough to know what

1659
01:39:04,439 --> 01:39:06,640
Speaker 1: that means. So she texted me and I was like,

1660
01:39:06,680 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 1: I can't believe this ship and I was like I know.

1661
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:11,080
Speaker 1: Um so then I'm like right. So then I'm like, okay, well,

1662
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:13,120
Speaker 1: now I want to go speak about this gender inclusion

1663
01:39:13,120 --> 01:39:18,960
Speaker 1: bill or policy personally right like now like has impacted me. Um.

1664
01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:21,920
Speaker 1: So I show up at you know, about an hour

1665
01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 1: before the meeting is supposed to start. Because the third

1666
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:28,960
Speaker 1: thing that kind of happened was that I, um, I am,

1667
01:39:28,960 --> 01:39:31,160
Speaker 1: I'm on like a bunch of mailing lists because of

1668
01:39:31,200 --> 01:39:36,000
Speaker 1: my job. And sure enough, the local gop um, who

1669
01:39:36,080 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 1: is not very active because again they kind of lose

1670
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:40,800
Speaker 1: all the time, they sent out a like come show

1671
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:44,080
Speaker 1: up at this thing, you know email. So I showed

1672
01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:46,320
Speaker 1: up early, thinking okay, well I want to see if

1673
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:49,000
Speaker 1: there's going to be something. And at first I was like, oh, like,

1674
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:50,519
Speaker 1: I don't think they showed up. I don't think that

1675
01:39:50,600 --> 01:39:53,439
Speaker 1: they turned out that's good. But it turns out they

1676
01:39:53,439 --> 01:39:55,800
Speaker 1: were all like hiding in their cars so that they

1677
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:59,599
Speaker 1: could like swarm the building at once, and so then

1678
01:39:59,680 --> 01:40:01,640
Speaker 1: like a about half an hour before the meeting, they

1679
01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:04,120
Speaker 1: all walked in at once and like I was already

1680
01:40:04,120 --> 01:40:06,439
Speaker 1: sitting inside the room and they all came in at once,

1681
01:40:06,439 --> 01:40:08,160
Speaker 1: and they took over all the chairs. They was standing

1682
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:13,639
Speaker 1: room only. Um to the point where like the there

1683
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:15,479
Speaker 1: was a bunch of f A kids that were there

1684
01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 1: that was supposed to be recognized for you know, f

1685
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:20,800
Speaker 1: f A something or other, and like they had to

1686
01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:23,200
Speaker 1: kick some people out so that they weren't violating the

1687
01:40:23,200 --> 01:40:27,880
Speaker 1: fire code. Um that's how many. Yeah, So anyway, that's

1688
01:40:27,920 --> 01:40:29,920
Speaker 1: kind of how it all. That's the setting for where

1689
01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 1: this all happened. Um. It turns out that at the

1690
01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:36,720
Speaker 1: same meeting there was gonna be a policy discussion on

1691
01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:39,680
Speaker 1: a different policy that had to do with New Mexico's

1692
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:44,240
Speaker 1: revision of Social Studies standards. UM. And of course that

1693
01:40:44,320 --> 01:40:47,400
Speaker 1: got everybody hot and bothered about so called c RT,

1694
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:52,360
Speaker 1: which isn't a thing. But so like they were there,

1695
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:54,360
Speaker 1: but I mean, but the folks that showed up to speak,

1696
01:40:54,400 --> 01:40:55,640
Speaker 1: I mean, they were all over the place. They were

1697
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:58,080
Speaker 1: talking about critical race theory, they were talking about the

1698
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 1: gender Inclusion Bill, and like trans violent the myth of

1699
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:04,360
Speaker 1: trans violence and um. But then of course, like like

1700
01:41:04,439 --> 01:41:07,200
Speaker 1: COVID protocols and all kinds of I mean just again

1701
01:41:07,240 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 1: like way out their stuff. Um and actually kind of funny.

1702
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:14,400
Speaker 1: I was listening to Knowledge Fight this morning and uh,

1703
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:17,680
Speaker 1: Jordan Dan really hit on it that like they have

1704
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:19,640
Speaker 1: just figured out that these are places they can go

1705
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:22,360
Speaker 1: and yell and like no one, you know, like school

1706
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:25,320
Speaker 1: board people aren't gonna like they're all just these are

1707
01:41:25,320 --> 01:41:27,240
Speaker 1: all just like teachers, like retired teachers who are on

1708
01:41:27,280 --> 01:41:29,280
Speaker 1: these school boards, and they're like they're not there to

1709
01:41:29,320 --> 01:41:32,400
Speaker 1: just you know, have these like whatever discussions, so they're

1710
01:41:32,400 --> 01:41:34,120
Speaker 1: not gonna you know, they just like let these people yell,

1711
01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:37,439
Speaker 1: and they did. So anyways, it got it got heated,

1712
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:40,400
Speaker 1: uh pretty quickly because I mean again, these people just

1713
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:43,400
Speaker 1: like go off and they get they railed themselves up

1714
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:46,000
Speaker 1: and those lots of applause and anyway, that's kind of

1715
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:48,599
Speaker 1: how it all started, I guess, or that's what it was.

1716
01:41:49,479 --> 01:41:52,120
Speaker 1: And I mean, has has there have you noticed kind

1717
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:54,760
Speaker 1: of any sort of mobilization in the community now that

1718
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:56,840
Speaker 1: this has happened, because it seems like the first ones

1719
01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:59,599
Speaker 1: of these at least always take everybody by surprise. People

1720
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:01,400
Speaker 1: are not you You're still not really used to school

1721
01:42:01,400 --> 01:42:06,400
Speaker 1: board meetings being um shall I say interesting? Um, certainly important,

1722
01:42:06,439 --> 01:42:08,000
Speaker 1: but like not a thing that you have to really

1723
01:42:08,040 --> 01:42:11,040
Speaker 1: be concerned about for the most part. And that's that's changing.

1724
01:42:11,080 --> 01:42:14,040
Speaker 1: Have you seen the community kind of start to adapt

1725
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:17,560
Speaker 1: to that. Yeah, you know, since so you know, I

1726
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:20,799
Speaker 1: put some content out on my you know, local Twitter,

1727
01:42:21,640 --> 01:42:26,280
Speaker 1: um and and and um got some traction there thanks

1728
01:42:26,320 --> 01:42:28,720
Speaker 1: to sort of your retweet, I think. But um, but

1729
01:42:28,840 --> 01:42:33,439
Speaker 1: then the biggest thing was that kind of going back

1730
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:36,720
Speaker 1: to what had happened at my daughter's school, that progress

1731
01:42:36,800 --> 01:42:39,600
Speaker 1: that got worse, if you will. The following day, the

1732
01:42:39,640 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 1: Wednesday of last week, some kids showed up in an

1733
01:42:42,120 --> 01:42:46,880
Speaker 1: actual Confederate stars and bars flag, um, which is yeah,

1734
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:54,559
Speaker 1: that's nuts. Famed Confederate state New Mexico. But you know Messia,

1735
01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:57,240
Speaker 1: New Mexico, which is right down the road was it

1736
01:42:57,560 --> 01:43:02,000
Speaker 1: was the capital of the Confederate territory. But yeah, but

1737
01:43:02,080 --> 01:43:03,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't a state at that point. It was not

1738
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:07,320
Speaker 1: a state. And I'm not aware of were their battles

1739
01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:09,320
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. And I know we had some in

1740
01:43:09,479 --> 01:43:12,000
Speaker 1: like further south Texas than you would think, but I

1741
01:43:12,040 --> 01:43:14,040
Speaker 1: was not there of any. There's a couple there was

1742
01:43:14,080 --> 01:43:16,840
Speaker 1: one of famously up north called the Battle of Loureetta

1743
01:43:17,080 --> 01:43:19,599
Speaker 1: and then um and then there was one here where

1744
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:21,680
Speaker 1: I live. Wasn't a battle, it was a bunch of

1745
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:25,880
Speaker 1: Confederates got um stranded and super drunk. And then I

1746
01:43:26,120 --> 01:43:29,000
Speaker 1: couldn't cross the desert fast enough, so they got stranded

1747
01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:30,960
Speaker 1: up in the mountains at a place called Baylor Canyon.

1748
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:34,599
Speaker 1: And then they get to the top and like the

1749
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:36,760
Speaker 1: North was just sitting there like waiting for them and

1750
01:43:36,840 --> 01:43:41,080
Speaker 1: was like, well, you're captured. Now, we'll see. That's clearly

1751
01:43:41,360 --> 01:43:47,639
Speaker 1: that's some history worth celebrating right there. Yeah, I think

1752
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:50,360
Speaker 1: that the biggest, like one of the scariest but biggest

1753
01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:52,400
Speaker 1: things is like and this goes towards that this is

1754
01:43:52,400 --> 01:43:55,439
Speaker 1: a slight tangent, but like the social studies revision, for instance,

1755
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:58,639
Speaker 1: in the state of New Mexico. Uh, there are two

1756
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:02,320
Speaker 1: paragraphs in our history but about the Gaston purchase. Um

1757
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:06,880
Speaker 1: like I live in the chunk that is the guest

1758
01:44:06,920 --> 01:44:12,040
Speaker 1: and purchase and um like the guests and Purchase is

1759
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:15,760
Speaker 1: like James Gaston was a notorious racist who left the

1760
01:44:15,840 --> 01:44:18,920
Speaker 1: South and took all of his railroad money went to

1761
01:44:18,960 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 1: California and Mexico, lobbying hard, using his influence and money

1762
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:25,559
Speaker 1: to try to create a slave state in Baja in Mexico,

1763
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:28,519
Speaker 1: Like that's what he was trying to do. And like

1764
01:44:29,160 --> 01:44:31,720
Speaker 1: that part of the that part of the context of

1765
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 1: why the guests and Purchase even happened is like totally

1766
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:37,280
Speaker 1: left out of history books. And it's like, if anywhere

1767
01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:39,240
Speaker 1: should be taught, it should be taught in the place

1768
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:41,320
Speaker 1: that is called the Guests and Purchase when it comes

1769
01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:45,000
Speaker 1: to the United States. So anyway, just a little tangent

1770
01:44:45,040 --> 01:44:49,160
Speaker 1: there why it's important to have context in history. Um

1771
01:44:49,200 --> 01:44:51,519
Speaker 1: so sorry going back to my daughter's school and these

1772
01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:57,160
Speaker 1: kids wearing the stupid stars and bars so um that. So,

1773
01:44:57,320 --> 01:44:59,599
Speaker 1: like I went and spoke to the assistant principle and

1774
01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:03,519
Speaker 1: was like, so I understand that your answer to this

1775
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:06,800
Speaker 1: was to ban all flags and he was like and

1776
01:45:06,840 --> 01:45:08,840
Speaker 1: he was like yeah, yeah, yeah, because they're causing a

1777
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:12,320
Speaker 1: disruption to education. And I was like, yeah, but I

1778
01:45:12,360 --> 01:45:13,640
Speaker 1: you know, I think I feel like you're giving a

1779
01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:17,320
Speaker 1: false equivalency to like, you know, gender and and pride

1780
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:23,080
Speaker 1: acknowledgement to flag. Yeah. It's it's I mean, it's this constant.

1781
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:25,120
Speaker 1: This has happened in a couple of places, including a

1782
01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:27,840
Speaker 1: town in Oregon where it's like this is sort of

1783
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:30,639
Speaker 1: the the centrist and kind of the right wing solution

1784
01:45:30,680 --> 01:45:32,880
Speaker 1: to this is just that like, well, if if kids

1785
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:37,120
Speaker 1: can't wear racist hate flags, then gay kids can't wear

1786
01:45:37,120 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 1: a flag that says that their existence is valid. Uh,

1787
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:43,479
Speaker 1: you know, because those are the same thing. Yeah. Yeah,

1788
01:45:43,520 --> 01:45:47,160
Speaker 1: it's frustrating. It is frustrating. So that was not my

1789
01:45:47,240 --> 01:45:51,760
Speaker 1: favorite thing. Um. And so then the culmination of that

1790
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:55,360
Speaker 1: this week was that my daughter's social studies teacher, who

1791
01:45:55,960 --> 01:45:58,800
Speaker 1: had allowed the kids in her class to make little

1792
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:03,120
Speaker 1: paper flags after the real flags were banned, um, was

1793
01:46:03,160 --> 01:46:08,280
Speaker 1: fired Jesus Christ. And because it's a personnel matter, no

1794
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:10,799
Speaker 1: one is willing to tell me more. I've I've called

1795
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:14,040
Speaker 1: the president of the school school board, who actually, in

1796
01:46:14,080 --> 01:46:16,559
Speaker 1: all fairness, he doesn't actually probably have that much sway

1797
01:46:16,600 --> 01:46:18,759
Speaker 1: over these kinds of things. I would imagine that happened

1798
01:46:18,760 --> 01:46:21,960
Speaker 1: at a level a level that was not his. But yeah, yeah,

1799
01:46:22,280 --> 01:46:24,120
Speaker 1: but I mean, but I but I have anyway, So

1800
01:46:24,160 --> 01:46:26,320
Speaker 1: I did call him. I also called the school and

1801
01:46:26,439 --> 01:46:30,040
Speaker 1: got very little information from them obviously, so you know

1802
01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:33,960
Speaker 1: who knows. But again, like that's how it was perceived

1803
01:46:34,000 --> 01:46:38,599
Speaker 1: from the kids in her class. Um, And that's so

1804
01:46:38,720 --> 01:46:40,680
Speaker 1: like what we know happened, is that we know that

1805
01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:44,000
Speaker 1: after the flags got banned, she let kids make flags

1806
01:46:44,400 --> 01:46:46,799
Speaker 1: out of paper and hang them up, and by Friday

1807
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:51,040
Speaker 1: she was gone. So like not a great response, no,

1808
01:46:51,160 --> 01:46:55,640
Speaker 1: not not not ideal. Yeah yeah, so anyway, that's kind

1809
01:46:55,640 --> 01:46:57,479
Speaker 1: of where we left at. But I guess maybe what

1810
01:46:57,680 --> 01:46:59,160
Speaker 1: maybe what I should say to get back to your

1811
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:01,160
Speaker 1: original question, which is to say, like, have we seen

1812
01:47:01,200 --> 01:47:05,360
Speaker 1: a mobilization that Yeah? Like so I learned the newspaper

1813
01:47:05,439 --> 01:47:10,479
Speaker 1: the reporter who that teacher like a couple of weeks ago,

1814
01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:13,639
Speaker 1: had actually been in the newspaper because she had also

1815
01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:19,000
Speaker 1: like um, she she spearheaded this like response like a

1816
01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:22,040
Speaker 1: support like a girl who wore her job to school

1817
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:25,439
Speaker 1: had been bullied, and like when news got around in

1818
01:47:25,479 --> 01:47:28,759
Speaker 1: the school, like the like the majority of the student

1819
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:32,679
Speaker 1: body and this teacher like went up and above out

1820
01:47:32,680 --> 01:47:35,559
Speaker 1: of their way to make her feel welcome and like

1821
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:37,639
Speaker 1: walk her to her class, and like it got kind

1822
01:47:37,640 --> 01:47:40,880
Speaker 1: of viral on local TikTok. So like this teacher got

1823
01:47:40,960 --> 01:47:43,360
Speaker 1: quoted in the newspaper. So I like called them, I

1824
01:47:43,360 --> 01:47:45,680
Speaker 1: called the report. I tweeted the newspaper and I was like, like,

1825
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:48,000
Speaker 1: you guys know that the teacher who was in like

1826
01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:52,600
Speaker 1: startlet in your article is fired for allowing kids to

1827
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:54,920
Speaker 1: vote their thoughts on about these flags things right, And

1828
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:56,360
Speaker 1: they were like, no, we didn't know, and I was like,

1829
01:47:56,720 --> 01:47:59,840
Speaker 1: you should probably find so, So, you know, I don't

1830
01:47:59,840 --> 01:48:02,040
Speaker 1: know where we're gonna be at now. The next reading

1831
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:08,240
Speaker 1: for the gender Inclusion policy is UM December, so we've

1832
01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:11,200
Speaker 1: got a couple of weeks before that next school board meeting. UM.

1833
01:48:11,479 --> 01:48:14,120
Speaker 1: I think that on my end, like there's gonna be

1834
01:48:14,200 --> 01:48:17,920
Speaker 1: some local organizing to try to get some better, more

1835
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:21,360
Speaker 1: inclusive voices to be a part of things. UM. I

1836
01:48:21,479 --> 01:48:25,360
Speaker 1: don't you know, I don't know what the interim will hold, um,

1837
01:48:25,920 --> 01:48:27,639
Speaker 1: because it's like, you know, it's the holidays and there's

1838
01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:31,519
Speaker 1: a lot going on and Kyle Rittenhouse and both Black Better.

1839
01:48:31,720 --> 01:48:33,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like, you know, there's always a million

1840
01:48:33,240 --> 01:48:35,760
Speaker 1: things happening, so it'll you know, there will have to

1841
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,000
Speaker 1: be some drum beating to like get people to show

1842
01:48:38,080 --> 01:48:40,240
Speaker 1: up to that. But on the other hand, I think

1843
01:48:40,560 --> 01:48:44,240
Speaker 1: with some of the momentum we have and I think

1844
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:47,679
Speaker 1: people will show up in Mass for the fourteenth UM

1845
01:48:47,720 --> 01:48:50,160
Speaker 1: in support at least this is the kind of community

1846
01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:53,200
Speaker 1: that in general we have shown up and shown out

1847
01:48:53,240 --> 01:48:55,679
Speaker 1: to support you know, these kinds of issues in the past.

1848
01:48:55,760 --> 01:48:58,519
Speaker 1: But I do think that up until now people felt

1849
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:02,240
Speaker 1: for pretty asleep about it. Yeah, I mean, and hopefully

1850
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:05,800
Speaker 1: you do see the kind of response you're expecting. Can

1851
01:49:05,840 --> 01:49:09,320
Speaker 1: you walk me through sort of how the kind of attempts,

1852
01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:12,320
Speaker 1: like you talked about getting the local media aware of

1853
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:15,240
Speaker 1: what had happened to that teacher, Um, how are people like,

1854
01:49:15,320 --> 01:49:18,080
Speaker 1: what does the actual organizing effort look like on the ground, Like,

1855
01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:20,000
Speaker 1: how are you trying? How are you and others trying

1856
01:49:20,040 --> 01:49:22,040
Speaker 1: to get the word out so that you know there's

1857
01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:26,240
Speaker 1: a response to this. Yeah, so I think that, Um,

1858
01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:31,559
Speaker 1: the first thing is is that there was there was

1859
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:37,160
Speaker 1: a problem with the way that the school board handled

1860
01:49:37,160 --> 01:49:42,080
Speaker 1: public comment that first time. In an attempt to help

1861
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:45,640
Speaker 1: limit their own sort of exposure to some of the

1862
01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:48,479
Speaker 1: toxic stuff they knew was coming their way, they had

1863
01:49:49,040 --> 01:49:55,200
Speaker 1: they had instituted a limit on public comment. Um, you

1864
01:49:55,240 --> 01:49:57,240
Speaker 1: had to show up by a certain time and fill

1865
01:49:57,240 --> 01:49:58,960
Speaker 1: out these little pieces of paper saying that you were

1866
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:01,200
Speaker 1: there to comment about some thing, and if you weren't there,

1867
01:50:01,240 --> 01:50:03,519
Speaker 1: then you couldn't sign up. And the problem was was

1868
01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:09,520
Speaker 1: that all these like old white male retirees who are

1869
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:12,160
Speaker 1: sitting around listening to Alex Jones all day. They had

1870
01:50:12,200 --> 01:50:14,559
Speaker 1: nothing better to do than show up to this meeting

1871
01:50:14,560 --> 01:50:17,080
Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the afternoon, whereas a bunch of

1872
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:21,280
Speaker 1: for instance, teachers, students, parents, um, they were busy because

1873
01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:23,320
Speaker 1: they were in school or like picking their kids up

1874
01:50:23,320 --> 01:50:26,320
Speaker 1: from school. UM. So I think one of the things

1875
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:28,920
Speaker 1: that we're going to try to do is get public

1876
01:50:28,960 --> 01:50:32,120
Speaker 1: comment ahead of time, and we're gonna try to like

1877
01:50:32,200 --> 01:50:35,120
Speaker 1: bombard the not bombard that's that's a violent word. But

1878
01:50:35,160 --> 01:50:38,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna try to like just make sure that UM

1879
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:41,800
Speaker 1: voices from the community that hadn't been represented are represented

1880
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:44,639
Speaker 1: and sent to the school board ahead of time. UM.

1881
01:50:44,680 --> 01:50:46,879
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna try to go and save physical

1882
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:49,639
Speaker 1: space ahead of time for those of us that can write.

1883
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:51,080
Speaker 1: For those of us that can will go and we'll

1884
01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:53,920
Speaker 1: try to save physical space. And we did learn that

1885
01:50:53,960 --> 01:50:56,880
Speaker 1: even if they keep that policy for the little forms

1886
01:50:57,280 --> 01:51:00,479
Speaker 1: we can UM, we can actually give that. I'm we

1887
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:02,479
Speaker 1: can fill out other people's names, right, So we're gonna

1888
01:51:02,520 --> 01:51:05,040
Speaker 1: try to like make sure that we have better voices.

1889
01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:06,760
Speaker 1: That was one of the things. If you listen to

1890
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:09,720
Speaker 1: the recording of what I said at that meeting. UM.

1891
01:51:09,840 --> 01:51:12,400
Speaker 1: I asked the school board president if it's possible for

1892
01:51:12,439 --> 01:51:15,040
Speaker 1: me to yield my time because it had literally been

1893
01:51:15,120 --> 01:51:19,439
Speaker 1: like a dozen white men out there spouting nonsense. And

1894
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:22,080
Speaker 1: then I get up there and I'm like, yeah, hey, UM,

1895
01:51:22,120 --> 01:51:24,680
Speaker 1: we've heard from enough white men. Can we have like

1896
01:51:24,840 --> 01:51:26,880
Speaker 1: a member of the trans community or one of the

1897
01:51:26,920 --> 01:51:29,639
Speaker 1: women of color who are here to talk about this, um,

1898
01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:32,599
Speaker 1: but couldn't get here in time? And they're legal team

1899
01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:34,240
Speaker 1: was like, oh no, like you didn't sign up in

1900
01:51:34,280 --> 01:51:36,680
Speaker 1: time or whatever. So UM, but it turns out we

1901
01:51:36,680 --> 01:51:38,880
Speaker 1: could have put their names down ahead of time. So

1902
01:51:38,920 --> 01:51:41,479
Speaker 1: we're gonna try to organize that thing so that people

1903
01:51:41,479 --> 01:51:44,400
Speaker 1: can show up and save you know, physical space. UM.

1904
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:47,640
Speaker 1: And then UM, I think the other thing too is

1905
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:50,599
Speaker 1: to try to involve some other local elected officials from

1906
01:51:50,640 --> 01:51:53,160
Speaker 1: the county and city level, because again, we have these

1907
01:51:53,160 --> 01:51:56,559
Speaker 1: really amazing progressive candidates who have come from all walks

1908
01:51:56,600 --> 01:51:59,960
Speaker 1: of life, including immigrants and members of you know, lgb

1909
01:52:00,040 --> 01:52:04,040
Speaker 1: t q A community. UM. So having them come and

1910
01:52:04,080 --> 01:52:08,080
Speaker 1: speak in their official capacity UM, I think will carry

1911
01:52:08,120 --> 01:52:11,120
Speaker 1: a lot of weight um for the both for the

1912
01:52:11,160 --> 01:52:13,280
Speaker 1: school board but also just for the public to hear

1913
01:52:13,360 --> 01:52:17,720
Speaker 1: from those voices. Yeah, where are these like have you

1914
01:52:17,760 --> 01:52:19,800
Speaker 1: have you gotten any kind of research on where the

1915
01:52:19,840 --> 01:52:21,920
Speaker 1: people showing up are coming from? Are these like folks

1916
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:24,760
Speaker 1: within your community or these people coming from kind of

1917
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:28,400
Speaker 1: outlying areas um to swarm these meetings? Like is there

1918
01:52:28,479 --> 01:52:32,360
Speaker 1: is there kind of an active research contingent. I mean,

1919
01:52:32,360 --> 01:52:34,599
Speaker 1: that's part of what I do. It's part of part

1920
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:37,160
Speaker 1: of my job with Progress now in Mexico. My my

1921
01:52:37,200 --> 01:52:40,040
Speaker 1: title is Energy Policy Director. I usually spend most of

1922
01:52:40,040 --> 01:52:43,040
Speaker 1: my day talking about oil and gas stuff. However, I've

1923
01:52:43,040 --> 01:52:46,120
Speaker 1: been doing this job long enough that before I became

1924
01:52:46,360 --> 01:52:50,320
Speaker 1: that person, I was actively researching and tracking a lot

1925
01:52:50,360 --> 01:52:52,920
Speaker 1: of white supremacy activity in the in the state, especially

1926
01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:56,040
Speaker 1: along the border, some of the border militia stuff a

1927
01:52:56,080 --> 01:53:00,240
Speaker 1: couple of years back. So in that regard, I knew

1928
01:53:00,240 --> 01:53:02,320
Speaker 1: and I knew a number of these folks. A lot

1929
01:53:02,360 --> 01:53:05,720
Speaker 1: of them do live in the city. But so our

1930
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:08,439
Speaker 1: our county is considered rural by the census, even though

1931
01:53:08,560 --> 01:53:10,920
Speaker 1: we're a city of a hundred thousand people. But we're

1932
01:53:10,920 --> 01:53:15,040
Speaker 1: a big county. So there's there's two people here, so um,

1933
01:53:15,120 --> 01:53:16,760
Speaker 1: so there's you know, it's it's hard to tell how

1934
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:19,280
Speaker 1: many people may or may not have lived in, for instance,

1935
01:53:19,280 --> 01:53:22,120
Speaker 1: the public school district. But what I can tell you,

1936
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:24,640
Speaker 1: like hands down, is that of those dozen folks that

1937
01:53:24,720 --> 01:53:28,559
Speaker 1: spoke before I did, like, there's no way that at

1938
01:53:28,680 --> 01:53:30,920
Speaker 1: least I mean, maybe one or two of them had

1939
01:53:31,000 --> 01:53:33,639
Speaker 1: kids that could have gone through the Las Cruces public

1940
01:53:33,640 --> 01:53:37,280
Speaker 1: school system, but like the majority of them far and away,

1941
01:53:37,360 --> 01:53:40,439
Speaker 1: like either aren't from here at all, or you know,

1942
01:53:40,479 --> 01:53:42,960
Speaker 1: they've lived here for a long time, but they are

1943
01:53:43,000 --> 01:53:45,559
Speaker 1: They are not active parents or even grandparents of kids

1944
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:47,519
Speaker 1: that live and we'll go to school in this in

1945
01:53:47,560 --> 01:53:51,879
Speaker 1: this district. They're just they're just agitated right wingers. Yeah,

1946
01:53:51,920 --> 01:53:54,160
Speaker 1: And it's how does this all tie in? Because New

1947
01:53:54,160 --> 01:53:56,360
Speaker 1: Mexico has had I think it's kind of been on

1948
01:53:56,400 --> 01:53:58,640
Speaker 1: the back burner in terms of like national attention. But

1949
01:53:58,720 --> 01:54:01,479
Speaker 1: y'all have had some really significant dust stops, not just

1950
01:54:01,520 --> 01:54:03,600
Speaker 1: with you know, the border militias. For years there have

1951
01:54:03,640 --> 01:54:07,280
Speaker 1: been violent um acts and even murders as the result

1952
01:54:07,320 --> 01:54:10,799
Speaker 1: of that stuff going on. But like during last year's

1953
01:54:11,040 --> 01:54:14,719
Speaker 1: the protest over George Floyd's murder, y'all had some really ugly,

1954
01:54:15,439 --> 01:54:18,479
Speaker 1: who's shall we say, dueling rallies were like right wingers

1955
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:23,440
Speaker 1: shot at people, um and and some really some nasty situations.

1956
01:54:23,479 --> 01:54:26,280
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, are like those folks, like, are you seeing

1957
01:54:26,280 --> 01:54:30,000
Speaker 1: that kind of organization being brought into the school board meeting?

1958
01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:32,680
Speaker 1: Or is this just kind of bubbling up as part

1959
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:37,800
Speaker 1: of the same stew it is. Yeah, there, it's loosely

1960
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:42,520
Speaker 1: affiliated for sure. Um And And the crossover, the crossover

1961
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:46,080
Speaker 1: is hard to tell. Depend I mean, what am I

1962
01:54:46,120 --> 01:54:49,200
Speaker 1: trying to say? There's there is crossover. It's hard to

1963
01:54:49,200 --> 01:54:52,960
Speaker 1: tell how on purpose it is or sort of the

1964
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:56,560
Speaker 1: fact that this is like a small population community states, right.

1965
01:54:56,960 --> 01:54:59,640
Speaker 1: So what I what I mean by that is that

1966
01:55:00,440 --> 01:55:04,440
Speaker 1: some of the some of the physical white supremacists who

1967
01:55:04,480 --> 01:55:09,120
Speaker 1: showed up last year at one of our um BLM

1968
01:55:09,240 --> 01:55:14,720
Speaker 1: support you know George Floyd related peaceful protests, who they

1969
01:55:14,720 --> 01:55:17,720
Speaker 1: showed up at a parking lot across the street, you know, armed,

1970
01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:22,080
Speaker 1: long guns, tech vests, all that kind of stuff. Who

1971
01:55:22,240 --> 01:55:24,680
Speaker 1: that those were the folks that when I when I

1972
01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:28,280
Speaker 1: went and filmed them and put them on blast to

1973
01:55:28,280 --> 01:55:30,800
Speaker 1: to try and sort of out them as best we

1974
01:55:30,840 --> 01:55:34,680
Speaker 1: possibly could, or at least identify them. Um, they came

1975
01:55:34,720 --> 01:55:38,880
Speaker 1: back and docked me as and then went after a

1976
01:55:38,960 --> 01:55:41,960
Speaker 1: number of my colleagues up north in Albuquerque. That was

1977
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:44,720
Speaker 1: about a week before there was the there was a

1978
01:55:44,720 --> 01:55:48,600
Speaker 1: shooting of a of a UM anti fascist protester in Albuquerque,

1979
01:55:49,440 --> 01:55:51,840
Speaker 1: and and it was during sort of all of that

1980
01:55:51,880 --> 01:55:54,960
Speaker 1: stuff that I was like trying to talk about all

1981
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:58,800
Speaker 1: this out loud, um and got tied into a few

1982
01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:01,200
Speaker 1: more other anti FASCI voices in the state. So since

1983
01:56:01,240 --> 01:56:03,880
Speaker 1: then we've all been kind of working together. Um. We

1984
01:56:03,960 --> 01:56:07,600
Speaker 1: found each other on Twitter, thankfully. And so so what

1985
01:56:07,680 --> 01:56:09,800
Speaker 1: it seems like is is that like the folks that

1986
01:56:09,800 --> 01:56:13,680
Speaker 1: showed up to the UH school board meeting were what

1987
01:56:13,800 --> 01:56:18,400
Speaker 1: I'll call usual suspects, like politically active old you know,

1988
01:56:18,840 --> 01:56:23,520
Speaker 1: right wingers. That being said, Um, in that room, there

1989
01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:27,839
Speaker 1: were a number of people that I've identified as showing

1990
01:56:28,000 --> 01:56:32,080
Speaker 1: up to anti vax rallies, a number of the Trump

1991
01:56:32,160 --> 01:56:35,560
Speaker 1: train rallies that happened last year before the election, and

1992
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:41,120
Speaker 1: at least one person who I recognized as being I

1993
01:56:41,160 --> 01:56:44,960
Speaker 1: have never seen carry firearm, but like has been at

1994
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:48,440
Speaker 1: rallies where people were carrying firearms and that kind of thing.

1995
01:56:48,680 --> 01:56:51,000
Speaker 1: Um in response to these you know, in response to

1996
01:56:51,040 --> 01:56:55,680
Speaker 1: like peaceful protests. So there is crossover for sure. Where

1997
01:56:55,680 --> 01:56:58,000
Speaker 1: do you see this going, Like, because you've been kind

1998
01:56:58,000 --> 01:57:01,200
Speaker 1: of paying attention to this for a while, not just

1999
01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:03,200
Speaker 1: the school board stuff, but just kind of the general

2000
01:57:03,240 --> 01:57:06,880
Speaker 1: problem of right wing UM organizing in your area, Like

2001
01:57:06,920 --> 01:57:08,760
Speaker 1: where do you where do you see this heading within

2002
01:57:08,840 --> 01:57:12,280
Speaker 1: kind of the context of New Mexico. Well, I mean,

2003
01:57:12,440 --> 01:57:16,680
Speaker 1: so we haven't really talked about this, but like, so, well,

2004
01:57:16,720 --> 01:57:19,400
Speaker 1: while here in Los Cruces, we did really well, um

2005
01:57:19,480 --> 01:57:22,600
Speaker 1: during the November election in terms of our school board

2006
01:57:22,600 --> 01:57:26,320
Speaker 1: to be re elected a really good progressive school board

2007
01:57:26,320 --> 01:57:30,240
Speaker 1: president and two new good progressive candidates, including, like I said,

2008
01:57:30,320 --> 01:57:33,680
Speaker 1: the first you know, queer openly queer person. So that's amazing. However,

2009
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:38,000
Speaker 1: up in Albuquerque, Uh, they lost seats to some of

2010
01:57:38,040 --> 01:57:42,360
Speaker 1: these far right wing UM candidates and UM, so the

2011
01:57:42,400 --> 01:57:48,520
Speaker 1: Albuquerque school board is UM not UM not looking as

2012
01:57:48,600 --> 01:57:52,360
Speaker 1: good politically. So, I mean, so on the like, I

2013
01:57:52,400 --> 01:57:54,280
Speaker 1: guess what I'd say is on the soft end, what

2014
01:57:54,360 --> 01:57:58,400
Speaker 1: I expect is more continued pressure in sort of the

2015
01:57:59,360 --> 01:58:03,280
Speaker 1: UM the way these things are supposed to happen, which

2016
01:58:03,320 --> 01:58:06,160
Speaker 1: is to say, like continued presence of the right wing

2017
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:10,360
Speaker 1: folks at meetings, yelling, taking up space, UM slowing things

2018
01:58:10,400 --> 01:58:13,400
Speaker 1: down running for office when the time comes, you know,

2019
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:16,000
Speaker 1: those kinds of things I see. Um, I guess I

2020
01:58:16,000 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised though, if um, if I if there

2021
01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:24,320
Speaker 1: were further escalation of things, UM in a you know,

2022
01:58:25,400 --> 01:58:27,560
Speaker 1: in the way we've seen other places, in terms of

2023
01:58:27,880 --> 01:58:30,520
Speaker 1: some sort of you know, an armed response or somebody

2024
01:58:30,600 --> 01:58:33,760
Speaker 1: showing up. Um. You know, in New Mexico's an open

2025
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:35,840
Speaker 1: carry state, and so people can walk around with guns

2026
01:58:35,880 --> 01:58:39,840
Speaker 1: all the time. Um. And and you know, I mean

2027
01:58:39,840 --> 01:58:41,280
Speaker 1: that's the other thing too, is like, while I didn't

2028
01:58:41,280 --> 01:58:43,520
Speaker 1: see anybody with an open carried firearm at the school

2029
01:58:43,560 --> 01:58:46,200
Speaker 1: board meeting, there were guys wearing like, you know, Vortex

2030
01:58:46,240 --> 01:58:49,720
Speaker 1: Optics brand hats, thin blue line shirts, a guy with

2031
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:52,160
Speaker 1: that like a Remingtons shirt, you know. And and like

2032
01:58:52,160 --> 01:58:54,200
Speaker 1: I don't regret anybody from gun culture. I'm you know,

2033
01:58:54,200 --> 01:58:56,160
Speaker 1: I'm a lefty with a gun. So it's like I

2034
01:58:56,560 --> 01:58:59,720
Speaker 1: get gun culture. But like when you show up in

2035
01:58:59,760 --> 01:59:02,360
Speaker 1: those things and then those spaces with that kind of

2036
01:59:02,800 --> 01:59:06,280
Speaker 1: yeah you're making a point yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're

2037
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:11,760
Speaker 1: you're you're not Yeah, I get that. Um, have you

2038
01:59:12,120 --> 01:59:14,360
Speaker 1: is there some kind of have you seen like any

2039
01:59:14,440 --> 01:59:17,760
Speaker 1: kind of butting left wing armed response, like, is there

2040
01:59:17,840 --> 01:59:19,920
Speaker 1: do you guys have like an organized group of folks

2041
01:59:19,920 --> 01:59:22,240
Speaker 1: who have been showing up? Um when there are armed

2042
01:59:22,280 --> 01:59:26,520
Speaker 1: protests in the area. UM, I mean, I always have

2043
01:59:26,720 --> 01:59:30,560
Speaker 1: my gear with me. Um, I've got I've got a

2044
01:59:30,560 --> 01:59:33,320
Speaker 1: ceramic plate, I've got my you know, rifle and pistol.

2045
01:59:33,360 --> 01:59:36,400
Speaker 1: I I am a member of a number of different groups.

2046
01:59:36,440 --> 01:59:39,480
Speaker 1: I've been a member of the s R A, UM,

2047
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:42,120
Speaker 1: I've I've worked with some of the armed groups up

2048
01:59:42,120 --> 01:59:44,240
Speaker 1: in Albuquerque. So down here there hasn't been a ton

2049
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:47,080
Speaker 1: But um, I've got a I've got what I'll call

2050
01:59:47,120 --> 01:59:49,360
Speaker 1: a luciffiliation with a number of folks that I would

2051
01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 1: trust to be armed if need be. Thankfully that hasn't

2052
01:59:53,520 --> 01:59:57,080
Speaker 1: happened yet. Thankfully, the one big, big protests that happened

2053
01:59:57,080 --> 01:59:59,640
Speaker 1: here in Las Cruces that I was sort of nervous

2054
01:59:59,720 --> 02:00:02,440
Speaker 1: about out and I did have my gear for remained

2055
02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:05,200
Speaker 1: peaceful and and we you know, we took over some

2056
02:00:05,240 --> 02:00:08,240
Speaker 1: streets and blocks traffic for a couple hours, and there

2057
02:00:08,280 --> 02:00:11,240
Speaker 1: was never any violent response from anybody other than maybe

2058
02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:13,560
Speaker 1: like one car at one point trying to push through

2059
02:00:13,600 --> 02:00:16,080
Speaker 1: and car got banged on. And that was about it,

2060
02:00:16,120 --> 02:00:20,880
Speaker 1: but um so so, so to answer your question, like, yes,

2061
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:23,440
Speaker 1: there are those of us that are left wing and armed,

2062
02:00:23,640 --> 02:00:27,320
Speaker 1: and there are those of us that have been able

2063
02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:29,760
Speaker 1: to show out if we needed to. Thankfully we haven't

2064
02:00:29,760 --> 02:00:33,280
Speaker 1: had too at this point. Yeah. Well all right, I

2065
02:00:33,280 --> 02:00:35,120
Speaker 1: think that's everything I had to ask. Is there anything

2066
02:00:35,120 --> 02:00:37,080
Speaker 1: else you wanted to to get to to make sure

2067
02:00:37,080 --> 02:00:40,000
Speaker 1: to talk about today? Well, I just I mean, I

2068
02:00:40,280 --> 02:00:43,040
Speaker 1: would be I would be um not doing the best

2069
02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:45,520
Speaker 1: of my job if I didn't mention the fact that,

2070
02:00:45,600 --> 02:00:48,400
Speaker 1: like one of the so one of the talking points

2071
02:00:48,440 --> 02:00:51,080
Speaker 1: of the right wing here and our school board is

2072
02:00:51,120 --> 02:00:56,360
Speaker 1: that New Mexico's education system is is fifty feet in

2073
02:00:56,400 --> 02:00:59,360
Speaker 1: the country. And I the the my assumption is that

2074
02:00:59,360 --> 02:01:03,720
Speaker 1: that has to do with DC's public schools being um

2075
02:01:03,840 --> 02:01:06,680
Speaker 1: so it's not a great Yeah, that's not a great record.

2076
02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:09,960
Speaker 1: It's not a it's not a great record. And um

2077
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:12,240
Speaker 1: and and I and I you know, as a parent

2078
02:01:12,360 --> 02:01:15,320
Speaker 1: of a kid who's in the public schools, I uh,

2079
02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:17,760
Speaker 1: you know, I cannot ignore that. Right. That's so that's

2080
02:01:17,760 --> 02:01:20,440
Speaker 1: a legitimate talking point. But the but the thing that

2081
02:01:20,520 --> 02:01:22,360
Speaker 1: they want to bring it about is that you know

2082
02:01:22,400 --> 02:01:26,640
Speaker 1: there you know, it's because we're trying to be gender inclusive.

2083
02:01:26,720 --> 02:01:30,680
Speaker 1: It's because we're trying to like you know, teach kids

2084
02:01:30,680 --> 02:01:34,560
Speaker 1: about like actual history that happened whatever, UM. And the

2085
02:01:34,600 --> 02:01:38,920
Speaker 1: reality is it's because our education system is, unlike most places,

2086
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:44,160
Speaker 1: funded by the oil and guests industry and not by

2087
02:01:44,200 --> 02:01:48,880
Speaker 1: like our communities. UM. And so like, you know, eighteen

2088
02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:53,280
Speaker 1: months ago, oil prices crashed, right and the State of

2089
02:01:53,320 --> 02:01:56,120
Speaker 1: New Mexico had to have an emergency special session for

2090
02:01:56,120 --> 02:01:57,920
Speaker 1: a legislature to figure out how we were gonna like

2091
02:01:58,400 --> 02:02:03,120
Speaker 1: fund things like cops and schools and like whatever. UM.

2092
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:05,760
Speaker 1: And then like now you know, oil and gas is

2093
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:08,560
Speaker 1: like gangbusters and where you know, record prices and like

2094
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:11,280
Speaker 1: the State of Mexico has this like surplus budget. But

2095
02:02:11,360 --> 02:02:14,440
Speaker 1: the thing is is that like that that extra money

2096
02:02:14,520 --> 02:02:16,440
Speaker 1: that we're gonna get this time doesn't make up for

2097
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:19,680
Speaker 1: the like cyclical bad you know way that we fund

2098
02:02:19,720 --> 02:02:22,440
Speaker 1: our schools. So I just want to like tie in that,

2099
02:02:22,600 --> 02:02:26,680
Speaker 1: like like all of these things tie in together, right,

2100
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:29,480
Speaker 1: Like we can't talk about education into Mexico without talking

2101
02:02:29,480 --> 02:02:33,320
Speaker 1: about the oil and gas funding and so anyway, so

2102
02:02:33,400 --> 02:02:36,000
Speaker 1: like because that's my you know, that's part of the

2103
02:02:36,040 --> 02:02:38,200
Speaker 1: reason why I was going to go talk about this

2104
02:02:38,280 --> 02:02:41,920
Speaker 1: stuff at the on my professional level is that like

2105
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:45,120
Speaker 1: I get to talk about education as an as an

2106
02:02:45,200 --> 02:02:48,960
Speaker 1: energy expert in the state of New Mexico because energy

2107
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:53,680
Speaker 1: and education or so intertwined here UM and Like when

2108
02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:57,960
Speaker 1: you have literal like Cooke Brothers founded UM and and

2109
02:02:58,480 --> 02:03:01,720
Speaker 1: UM like monetarily supplied think tanks in the state of

2110
02:03:01,720 --> 02:03:05,800
Speaker 1: New Mexico who are pushing out this kind of propaganda

2111
02:03:05,800 --> 02:03:09,000
Speaker 1: and encouraging people so that there's a group called the

2112
02:03:09,080 --> 02:03:12,760
Speaker 1: Rio Grand Foundation and like another one called Power of

2113
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:16,680
Speaker 1: the Future uh PT Power the Future in New Mexico.

2114
02:03:16,880 --> 02:03:20,680
Speaker 1: Like both of those organizations are like tied to the

2115
02:03:20,720 --> 02:03:23,200
Speaker 1: Cooke Brothers because the Kope Brothers are tied to oil,

2116
02:03:23,720 --> 02:03:27,840
Speaker 1: and they're pushing these right wing talking points UM and

2117
02:03:27,880 --> 02:03:29,920
Speaker 1: it's all part and parcel of just like you know,

2118
02:03:30,080 --> 02:03:33,400
Speaker 1: clouding the information space. That's what they want to do.

2119
02:03:33,440 --> 02:03:35,160
Speaker 1: They want to have they want to have the new

2120
02:03:35,200 --> 02:03:38,200
Speaker 1: cycle dominated with things like CRT and gender inclusion studies

2121
02:03:38,560 --> 02:03:42,560
Speaker 1: to you know, to tie up things like school boards

2122
02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:45,680
Speaker 1: so that so that the electorate is busy talking about

2123
02:03:45,680 --> 02:03:48,280
Speaker 1: these things while meanwhile they're just raking in money hand

2124
02:03:48,280 --> 02:03:54,160
Speaker 1: over fist um you know, stealing our oil. So anyway,

2125
02:03:54,280 --> 02:03:56,800
Speaker 1: I just that's so important to me to like make

2126
02:03:56,840 --> 02:04:00,840
Speaker 1: those connections, um, especially in a state, and it's something

2127
02:04:00,880 --> 02:04:03,600
Speaker 1: that a lot of people don't consider and don't think about,

2128
02:04:03,760 --> 02:04:06,080
Speaker 1: and it's just really important to me that people understand that.

2129
02:04:06,200 --> 02:04:10,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, UM, all right, Well, thank you so much, Lucas.

2130
02:04:10,480 --> 02:04:13,960
Speaker 1: This has been I'm not gonna say fun, but certainly

2131
02:04:14,120 --> 02:04:17,000
Speaker 1: enlightening and I think valuable A good a good dispatch

2132
02:04:17,120 --> 02:04:20,600
Speaker 1: from you know, a fight that we we continue to

2133
02:04:20,600 --> 02:04:23,240
Speaker 1: see is important here and that everybody should be paying

2134
02:04:23,280 --> 02:04:26,839
Speaker 1: attention to both wherever it happens, including in Los Cruces

2135
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:31,000
Speaker 1: and around the country. UM, because they ain't given up, um,

2136
02:04:31,360 --> 02:04:35,880
Speaker 1: and they can't be ignored. Um. Yeah. And that's You've

2137
02:04:35,920 --> 02:04:38,720
Speaker 1: mentioned this many times over the years, but like that's

2138
02:04:38,760 --> 02:04:42,280
Speaker 1: the kind of thing is that we have to show up. Um. Yeah.

2139
02:04:42,320 --> 02:04:45,280
Speaker 1: We can't just let them have these spaces. UM. And

2140
02:04:45,320 --> 02:04:47,840
Speaker 1: I think that this this past school board meeting was

2141
02:04:47,880 --> 02:04:51,640
Speaker 1: a great example of why. UM. And and I'm I'm

2142
02:04:51,680 --> 02:04:54,080
Speaker 1: really counting on a lot of my my my friends

2143
02:04:54,120 --> 02:04:56,840
Speaker 1: and close you know, the folks that I have come

2144
02:04:56,880 --> 02:05:00,000
Speaker 1: to love and support in this community, UM, to show

2145
02:05:00,080 --> 02:05:02,320
Speaker 1: up and show out for that because that's you know,

2146
02:05:02,360 --> 02:05:04,000
Speaker 1: we've been there, right we like I said, you know,

2147
02:05:04,040 --> 02:05:06,440
Speaker 1: and if you look up lost Cruses politics over the

2148
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:08,560
Speaker 1: years on the news cycle, like you'll see stories about

2149
02:05:08,560 --> 02:05:12,080
Speaker 1: our you know, progressive City Council and passing a living

2150
02:05:12,080 --> 02:05:14,800
Speaker 1: wage and you know, being classic bags. I mean like

2151
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:16,600
Speaker 1: all these like you know, we've we've tried, we've we've

2152
02:05:16,640 --> 02:05:20,280
Speaker 1: tried to be that kind of little community and and

2153
02:05:20,280 --> 02:05:22,640
Speaker 1: and yet you know, these folks are still there and

2154
02:05:22,680 --> 02:05:25,000
Speaker 1: they're still allowed and if we give them the space,

2155
02:05:25,080 --> 02:05:28,880
Speaker 1: they will take those spaces over. So yeah, yeah, absolutely,

2156
02:05:29,200 --> 02:05:31,480
Speaker 1: So thanks for having me on. Let me talk about this. Yeah,

2157
02:05:31,760 --> 02:05:34,040
Speaker 1: it really means a lot, thank you for stepping up,

2158
02:05:34,040 --> 02:05:36,120
Speaker 1: because it is this is the thing that's a giant

2159
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:39,600
Speaker 1: pain in the butt, um, is that everybody's got a

2160
02:05:39,600 --> 02:05:42,160
Speaker 1: lot going on. Life is complicated. There's all sorts of

2161
02:05:42,160 --> 02:05:44,800
Speaker 1: shipped to do in the old world. Um. But every

2162
02:05:44,800 --> 02:05:49,880
Speaker 1: time these fascists and their their affiliates decide they're going

2163
02:05:49,920 --> 02:05:52,640
Speaker 1: to try to take over something, you know, as busy

2164
02:05:52,680 --> 02:05:54,800
Speaker 1: as people are, as exhausting as it is, you do

2165
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:56,800
Speaker 1: have to like they can't just be able to have

2166
02:05:56,880 --> 02:05:59,000
Speaker 1: to do it. Like that's how they win, is they have.

2167
02:05:59,200 --> 02:06:02,040
Speaker 1: They have unlimited it energy for this ship and um

2168
02:06:02,160 --> 02:06:04,440
Speaker 1: if they're not like the thing that causes them to

2169
02:06:04,520 --> 02:06:10,320
Speaker 1: lose energy is actually um being outnumbered and shown to

2170
02:06:10,440 --> 02:06:15,360
Speaker 1: be like like like being kind of pushed out by communities. Um,

2171
02:06:15,520 --> 02:06:18,200
Speaker 1: you can do it. It takes it, but it requires

2172
02:06:18,200 --> 02:06:22,920
Speaker 1: people showing up. Yes, that's exactly right. So UM, I

2173
02:06:22,920 --> 02:06:26,480
Speaker 1: appreciate the signal boost means a lot to me. Uh

2174
02:06:26,520 --> 02:06:30,000
Speaker 1: and this, are there any local organs that people can support,

2175
02:06:30,680 --> 02:06:33,080
Speaker 1: so big shout out to a group called Cafe here

2176
02:06:33,080 --> 02:06:36,120
Speaker 1: in Las Cruces that works on all kinds of border

2177
02:06:36,120 --> 02:06:41,080
Speaker 1: issues immigrant rights but also like workers rights and um, immigrants,

2178
02:06:41,400 --> 02:06:45,000
Speaker 1: like student rights, migrant student rights. Um. They've been very

2179
02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:48,720
Speaker 1: active in this for a long time. UM. And so yeah,

2180
02:06:48,720 --> 02:06:52,440
Speaker 1: I definitely shout out Cafe uh here in here and

2181
02:06:52,600 --> 02:06:54,400
Speaker 1: I mean all of New Mexico, but specifically it set

2182
02:06:54,400 --> 02:06:55,680
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. They're doing a lot of work. And

2183
02:06:55,720 --> 02:06:59,480
Speaker 1: then um uh Dreams and Action, which is part of

2184
02:06:59,480 --> 02:07:02,920
Speaker 1: a NASH Network for dreamers. But um again here in

2185
02:07:02,920 --> 02:07:06,120
Speaker 1: New Mexico, I've done a lot of good work. Okay, yeah,

2186
02:07:06,160 --> 02:07:08,840
Speaker 1: thank you very much, Lucas. All right, UM, and that

2187
02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:11,120
Speaker 1: is going to do it. For us here, it could

2188
02:07:11,120 --> 02:07:16,560
Speaker 1: happen here. Um. Until next time, go uh, I don't know,

2189
02:07:18,560 --> 02:07:21,920
Speaker 1: hang out at a school board meeting. Go take up

2190
02:07:21,960 --> 02:07:24,680
Speaker 1: space from fascists. Yeah, go take up space from fascists

2191
02:07:24,680 --> 02:07:36,640
Speaker 1: in general. The Black Effect Presents features honest conversations and

2192
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:40,720
Speaker 1: exclusive interviews, a space for artists, everyday people and listeners

2193
02:07:40,960 --> 02:07:45,640
Speaker 1: to amplify, elevate, and empower black voices with great conversations.

2194
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:48,840
Speaker 1: Make sure to listen to The Black Effect Presents Podcast

2195
02:07:49,080 --> 02:07:52,280
Speaker 1: on I Heart Radio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

2196
02:07:52,320 --> 02:07:58,280
Speaker 1: your podcast. Adoption of teens from foster care is a

2197
02:07:58,360 --> 02:08:00,640
Speaker 1: topic not enough people know about, and we're here to

2198
02:08:00,720 --> 02:08:03,640
Speaker 1: change that. I'm April Dinuity, host of the new podcast

2199
02:08:03,800 --> 02:08:07,840
Speaker 1: Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode brings

2200
02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:11,240
Speaker 1: you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the families

2201
02:08:11,240 --> 02:08:14,640
Speaker 1: that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us

2202
02:08:14,760 --> 02:08:18,320
Speaker 1: Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribed to Navigating Adoption

2203
02:08:18,400 --> 02:08:21,040
Speaker 1: presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you by the

2204
02:08:21,080 --> 02:08:23,480
Speaker 1: U S Department of Healthy Human Service as Administration for

2205
02:08:23,560 --> 02:08:28,000
Speaker 1: Children and Families and the ACT Council. I call the

2206
02:08:28,080 --> 02:08:31,360
Speaker 1: Union Hall as his male life and death. I thank

2207
02:08:31,440 --> 02:08:34,880
Speaker 1: these peeps of planning to kill Dr King. On April four,

2208
02:08:36,360 --> 02:08:38,839
Speaker 1: Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis.

2209
02:08:39,120 --> 02:08:42,440
Speaker 1: A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He

2210
02:08:42,560 --> 02:08:44,760
Speaker 1: pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of

2211
02:08:44,800 --> 02:08:50,040
Speaker 1: his life in prison. Case closed right, James L. Ray

2212
02:08:50,320 --> 02:08:55,040
Speaker 1: was upon for the official story. The authorities would parade

2213
02:08:55,080 --> 02:08:58,000
Speaker 1: all we found a gun the James el Ray bought

2214
02:08:58,040 --> 02:09:02,080
Speaker 1: in Birmingham the jill Dr King, Except it wasn't the

2215
02:09:02,080 --> 02:09:05,080
Speaker 1: gun that killed Dr. King. One of the problems that

2216
02:09:05,320 --> 02:09:08,720
Speaker 1: came out when I got the Ray case was that

2217
02:09:08,960 --> 02:09:12,120
Speaker 1: some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned,

2218
02:09:12,160 --> 02:09:16,280
Speaker 1: did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes.

2219
02:09:16,600 --> 02:09:19,600
Speaker 1: The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I

2220
02:09:19,720 --> 02:09:23,480
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

2221
02:09:30,800 --> 02:09:35,200
Speaker 1: Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, the podcast about

2222
02:09:35,600 --> 02:09:38,760
Speaker 1: you know, the problems and stuff that are happening and

2223
02:09:38,800 --> 02:09:41,000
Speaker 1: how to maybe make them better. And speaking of the

2224
02:09:41,040 --> 02:09:43,160
Speaker 1: problems that are happening and how to make them better.

2225
02:09:43,720 --> 02:09:50,959
Speaker 1: Garrison Davis, Hi, Hello, that's so that's a weird segue.

2226
02:09:51,080 --> 02:09:53,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to introduce this video telling you guys that

2227
02:09:53,440 --> 02:09:55,480
Speaker 1: I just watched a movie that you should watch because

2228
02:09:55,480 --> 02:09:58,120
Speaker 1: it's pretty rad and it ties into all the things

2229
02:09:58,120 --> 02:10:00,960
Speaker 1: we talked about. It's all the Pizza Gate massacre. And

2230
02:10:01,000 --> 02:10:04,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know it is a micro budget under a

2231
02:10:04,920 --> 02:10:08,080
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars film. It looks great. They did a

2232
02:10:08,120 --> 02:10:11,200
Speaker 1: really good job with the budget they had. About Um,

2233
02:10:11,720 --> 02:10:15,960
Speaker 1: an Alex Jones employee type person and a mass shooter

2234
02:10:16,080 --> 02:10:19,360
Speaker 1: who go looking for UH to try to solve the

2235
02:10:19,360 --> 02:10:23,200
Speaker 1: Pizza Gate thing. Oh boy, it is a an actually

2236
02:10:23,440 --> 02:10:29,640
Speaker 1: very nuanced and I think deeply knowledgeable commentary on specifically

2237
02:10:29,720 --> 02:10:34,440
Speaker 1: like the Texan conspiracy scene. Like it's a like film.

2238
02:10:34,480 --> 02:10:36,960
Speaker 1: They're Alex Jones character who's played by a woman in this.

2239
02:10:37,040 --> 02:10:39,800
Speaker 1: They film in the original studio that he recorded in

2240
02:10:39,840 --> 02:10:43,839
Speaker 1: back in them. Like the filmmaker who did this gets

2241
02:10:44,440 --> 02:10:46,560
Speaker 1: like the culture in the area and kind of the

2242
02:10:46,600 --> 02:10:49,560
Speaker 1: relationship between the people who get radicalized and do ship

2243
02:10:49,720 --> 02:10:51,480
Speaker 1: and the people who just profit from it. It's a

2244
02:10:51,640 --> 02:10:54,760
Speaker 1: very good Um it's it is, by the way, a

2245
02:10:54,880 --> 02:10:58,040
Speaker 1: grindhouse horror movie. Like whatever you're expecting, it's not that

2246
02:10:58,160 --> 02:11:02,520
Speaker 1: it is, Like it is an incredible lee gory grindhouse movie. Um.

2247
02:11:02,560 --> 02:11:05,280
Speaker 1: But it's it's pretty it's pretty fun. What does that

2248
02:11:05,360 --> 02:11:08,040
Speaker 1: have to do with? Nothing at all? But it has

2249
02:11:08,040 --> 02:11:09,840
Speaker 1: a lot to do with it could happen here, because

2250
02:11:11,400 --> 02:11:16,360
Speaker 1: all right, well anyway, um, this is that could happen

2251
02:11:16,360 --> 02:11:18,200
Speaker 1: here a show about how things are kind of falling

2252
02:11:18,200 --> 02:11:20,680
Speaker 1: apart and how we can then maybe slow that down

2253
02:11:20,760 --> 02:11:26,880
Speaker 1: or prepare for an uncertain future. Um about cops, right,

2254
02:11:27,200 --> 02:11:29,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean we are we are planning an

2255
02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:33,920
Speaker 1: episode on Washington State Patrol. Um. But no, this is

2256
02:11:34,000 --> 02:11:37,200
Speaker 1: episode is a different a different kind of cop about

2257
02:11:37,440 --> 02:11:41,880
Speaker 1: just as useful. Um. So in the first time episodes

2258
02:11:42,080 --> 02:11:45,520
Speaker 1: of The Daily Show or season two, which if you

2259
02:11:45,560 --> 02:11:47,480
Speaker 1: haven't listened to you should definitely listen to those that

2260
02:11:47,560 --> 02:11:51,280
Speaker 1: as they kind of act as our shows manifesto of sorts.

2261
02:11:51,280 --> 02:11:55,200
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, the first time episodes of the scripted Daily

2262
02:11:55,480 --> 02:11:59,640
Speaker 1: Show put forth like a more like realistic, non sugarcoated

2263
02:11:59,680 --> 02:12:02,360
Speaker 1: look at what climate change will bring if we continue

2264
02:12:02,400 --> 02:12:05,760
Speaker 1: on our current course. Um. But not just looking at

2265
02:12:05,760 --> 02:12:09,040
Speaker 1: the obvious environmental and extreme weather effects, but also like

2266
02:12:09,080 --> 02:12:13,240
Speaker 1: the socio political effects. So when I was helping Robert

2267
02:12:13,240 --> 02:12:15,960
Speaker 1: out with the research for those episodes, some of the

2268
02:12:15,960 --> 02:12:20,280
Speaker 1: best indicators of like the mainstream conception of the scientific,

2269
02:12:20,360 --> 02:12:23,960
Speaker 1: environmental and political status of climate change was at the

2270
02:12:24,040 --> 02:12:28,440
Speaker 1: United Nations past uh I I PCC reports, which is

2271
02:12:28,440 --> 02:12:33,440
Speaker 1: the inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change and the COP conferences.

2272
02:12:34,040 --> 02:12:37,840
Speaker 1: So during the first few weeks of this past November

2273
02:12:37,880 --> 02:12:43,000
Speaker 1: of November one, the twenty six annual COP Conference took

2274
02:12:43,040 --> 02:12:47,000
Speaker 1: place in Glasgow. Um And yeah, the name of the

2275
02:12:47,040 --> 02:12:49,600
Speaker 1: conference is kind of a decent indication on how useful

2276
02:12:49,680 --> 02:12:54,040
Speaker 1: these things actually are. Um. But a COPS stands for

2277
02:12:54,080 --> 02:12:57,680
Speaker 1: a Conference of the parties, and for almost three decades

2278
02:12:57,720 --> 02:13:02,000
Speaker 1: they've been like the main international stage uh for for

2279
02:13:02,120 --> 02:13:06,400
Speaker 1: countries and companies to discuss climate related information. And like

2280
02:13:06,440 --> 02:13:11,200
Speaker 1: they're alleged like goals. Um. So yeah, they're a good indicator,

2281
02:13:11,320 --> 02:13:14,760
Speaker 1: not unlike sometimes they do present actual good science and

2282
02:13:14,800 --> 02:13:18,200
Speaker 1: like decent predictions, but they're often just like a good

2283
02:13:18,200 --> 02:13:22,640
Speaker 1: indication of what kind of the mainstream people think about

2284
02:13:22,680 --> 02:13:25,400
Speaker 1: what climate change is. And you know what the people

2285
02:13:25,400 --> 02:13:28,200
Speaker 1: in power, how they are viewing it and how urgent

2286
02:13:28,360 --> 02:13:31,200
Speaker 1: they think it's worth addressing, versus how much money they

2287
02:13:31,240 --> 02:13:35,720
Speaker 1: want to spend on it. So the most notable COP

2288
02:13:35,840 --> 02:13:41,040
Speaker 1: in recent memory was in Paris COP twenty one. This

2289
02:13:41,120 --> 02:13:45,080
Speaker 1: is kind of where the Paris Climate Accords were born. UH.

2290
02:13:45,120 --> 02:13:47,920
Speaker 1: The commitment was to aim for one point five degrees

2291
02:13:47,960 --> 02:13:50,480
Speaker 1: of warming, and it was signed on by nearly all

2292
02:13:50,600 --> 02:13:53,360
Speaker 1: major countries. Of course the US signed on left then

2293
02:13:53,480 --> 02:13:58,960
Speaker 1: resigned on. But anyway, under the Paris Agreement, countries committed

2294
02:13:59,080 --> 02:14:03,280
Speaker 1: to bring forth like a national plans UH figuring figuring

2295
02:14:03,320 --> 02:14:06,160
Speaker 1: out how they would reduce their missions, but they would

2296
02:14:06,160 --> 02:14:08,320
Speaker 1: do it like by themselves, and they would be called

2297
02:14:08,760 --> 02:14:12,600
Speaker 1: n d c s or nationally determined contributions. And the

2298
02:14:12,640 --> 02:14:15,840
Speaker 1: idea was for every five years countries would gather up

2299
02:14:16,160 --> 02:14:20,200
Speaker 1: and present their current plans on the national stage. This

2300
02:14:20,280 --> 02:14:22,800
Speaker 1: was what Coppy was going to be. Now it was

2301
02:14:22,880 --> 02:14:25,720
Speaker 1: delayed a year because of the pandemic, but COP twenty

2302
02:14:25,760 --> 02:14:29,400
Speaker 1: six was the time for countries to present their n

2303
02:14:29,480 --> 02:14:33,160
Speaker 1: d c s on and for like, their updated versions

2304
02:14:33,160 --> 02:14:36,600
Speaker 1: on their plans to reduce some missions. So most of

2305
02:14:36,600 --> 02:14:40,000
Speaker 1: the NDCs got submitted before the conference and kind of

2306
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:44,480
Speaker 1: led the discussion of the conference. UM By like mid October, UH,

2307
02:14:44,600 --> 02:14:50,400
Speaker 1: think about of the countries or states that signed onto

2308
02:14:50,440 --> 02:14:54,720
Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement submitted their submitted their version of the NDCs,

2309
02:14:54,760 --> 02:14:57,240
Speaker 1: and and and those countries about a hundred and forty

2310
02:14:57,280 --> 02:15:00,640
Speaker 1: of them are responsible for the majority of global emissions.

2311
02:15:01,160 --> 02:15:04,120
Speaker 1: So that that that was what kind of led up

2312
02:15:04,240 --> 02:15:09,800
Speaker 1: to two copy from happening UM. And the the overarching

2313
02:15:09,920 --> 02:15:15,880
Speaker 1: aim of the conference, according to President UM, when I

2314
02:15:16,000 --> 02:15:21,520
Speaker 1: try to pronounce this name um outlock sharma UM. He

2315
02:15:21,680 --> 02:15:24,080
Speaker 1: said that the the the idea for the conference was

2316
02:15:24,120 --> 02:15:29,680
Speaker 1: to like keep alive the Paris Agreements target to keep

2317
02:15:29,720 --> 02:15:34,960
Speaker 1: global temperatures from rising above one point five degrees celsius

2318
02:15:35,560 --> 02:15:38,600
Speaker 1: above pre industrial levels. So that was that was like

2319
02:15:38,680 --> 02:15:41,480
Speaker 1: the goal of the conference going into it was to

2320
02:15:41,560 --> 02:15:44,040
Speaker 1: kind of keep this idea of the Paris Climate Accords

2321
02:15:44,040 --> 02:15:47,760
Speaker 1: of still being achievable. UM. And that's and that's not

2322
02:15:47,800 --> 02:15:51,200
Speaker 1: what happened at the top twenties UM. Now it's it's

2323
02:15:51,200 --> 02:15:54,560
Speaker 1: it's important to kind of point out that the commitments

2324
02:15:54,640 --> 02:15:58,240
Speaker 1: laid out in the Paris Accords don't come close to

2325
02:15:58,360 --> 02:16:00,960
Speaker 1: limiting global warming to one point five degrees as it

2326
02:16:01,000 --> 02:16:04,600
Speaker 1: is said in the accords. Like like like they they acknowledge that, UM,

2327
02:16:04,600 --> 02:16:07,160
Speaker 1: which is what the kind of NDCs are for. But

2328
02:16:07,240 --> 02:16:09,600
Speaker 1: even still those are just non those are those are

2329
02:16:09,640 --> 02:16:13,560
Speaker 1: just non binding agreements. But anyway, so the cord, the

2330
02:16:13,600 --> 02:16:16,600
Speaker 1: Accords and the restrictions and goals, and well, there's no

2331
02:16:16,640 --> 02:16:19,360
Speaker 1: restrictions as just goals. The goals and them don't don't

2332
02:16:19,360 --> 02:16:21,880
Speaker 1: come close to limiting to one point five degrees. And

2333
02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:24,520
Speaker 1: we have already most likely shot way past the point

2334
02:16:24,520 --> 02:16:27,960
Speaker 1: of that being in any way achievable. UM. But you know,

2335
02:16:28,000 --> 02:16:31,080
Speaker 1: we can still limit things from being megabad like four degrees.

2336
02:16:31,200 --> 02:16:34,600
Speaker 1: But we are we are already on a certain path.

2337
02:16:35,200 --> 02:16:39,560
Speaker 1: So in in asking nations to set tougher targets by

2338
02:16:40,120 --> 02:16:43,680
Speaker 1: next year for cutting climate warming emissions, the new agreement

2339
02:16:43,879 --> 02:16:47,640
Speaker 1: at Glasgow acknowledge that the commitments that were in place

2340
02:16:47,760 --> 02:16:52,480
Speaker 1: are inadequate, and if rigorously followed, the the new national

2341
02:16:52,520 --> 02:16:56,080
Speaker 1: pledges so include the stuff including the Paris Accords and

2342
02:16:56,120 --> 02:16:59,439
Speaker 1: the new Glasgow packed um and all of the individual

2343
02:16:59,600 --> 02:17:02,520
Speaker 1: like uh N d c s. If all of those

2344
02:17:02,560 --> 02:17:06,000
Speaker 1: are followed, the world is now on track for a

2345
02:17:06,040 --> 02:17:09,360
Speaker 1: two point one to two point four degrees celsius of

2346
02:17:09,400 --> 02:17:11,440
Speaker 1: warming by the end of the century. And that is

2347
02:17:11,480 --> 02:17:15,000
Speaker 1: the lower estimate, as we'll see later on. Higher estimates

2348
02:17:15,000 --> 02:17:19,800
Speaker 1: were also umm shown at at the at the Glasgow conference,

2349
02:17:19,959 --> 02:17:23,040
Speaker 1: so we have the The idea was to hopefully keep

2350
02:17:23,040 --> 02:17:26,000
Speaker 1: it to one point five and already we're pushing that

2351
02:17:26,080 --> 02:17:28,200
Speaker 1: back by almost a whole a whole degree if we're

2352
02:17:28,200 --> 02:17:31,680
Speaker 1: going to like two point four. Um So that that's

2353
02:17:31,720 --> 02:17:35,160
Speaker 1: that's like the main one of the main impacts there

2354
02:17:35,280 --> 02:17:38,000
Speaker 1: is like just totally kissing one point five goodbye, like

2355
02:17:38,080 --> 02:17:41,160
Speaker 1: know what, no one even is going to view that

2356
02:17:41,400 --> 02:17:48,119
Speaker 1: as a possibility at this point. Huh. So, I don't

2357
02:17:48,120 --> 02:17:50,760
Speaker 1: know how many people were still looking at that as

2358
02:17:51,040 --> 02:17:53,360
Speaker 1: really a goal. Apparently some people of the planners of

2359
02:17:53,360 --> 02:17:58,200
Speaker 1: copy apparently were. Um but I mean, I know for us,

2360
02:17:58,280 --> 02:18:00,800
Speaker 1: we've we've been aware of that, and I'm not sure

2361
02:18:00,840 --> 02:18:05,000
Speaker 1: how you know, really what mainstream liberals were thinking before this,

2362
02:18:05,720 --> 02:18:08,959
Speaker 1: but hopefully at the very least, maybe Cup twenty six

2363
02:18:09,080 --> 02:18:12,000
Speaker 1: made them realize that maybe it's there's a there's kind

2364
02:18:12,040 --> 02:18:16,480
Speaker 1: of it's it's maybe maybe worse than what you were thinking. Um.

2365
02:18:16,520 --> 02:18:19,360
Speaker 1: But so there are other things did happen at at

2366
02:18:19,520 --> 02:18:23,280
Speaker 1: Glasgow that are that are worth looking into. Um So,

2367
02:18:23,400 --> 02:18:28,039
Speaker 1: the main quote unquote achievements of the Glasgow deal besides

2368
02:18:28,080 --> 02:18:31,080
Speaker 1: like revisiting the emissions cutting plants to try to keep

2369
02:18:31,120 --> 02:18:34,160
Speaker 1: stuff down, which of course we're you know, not not

2370
02:18:34,160 --> 02:18:37,240
Speaker 1: not met in shot way past. Um but there we

2371
02:18:37,280 --> 02:18:40,879
Speaker 1: also had the first ever inclusion of a commitment to

2372
02:18:41,600 --> 02:18:45,240
Speaker 1: limit coal use. Now, the way phrasing is gonna work here,

2373
02:18:45,240 --> 02:18:47,600
Speaker 1: it's gonna be really interesting because the reason why this

2374
02:18:47,680 --> 02:18:51,240
Speaker 1: deal got passed is because some very specific shifts in

2375
02:18:51,320 --> 02:18:54,840
Speaker 1: their phrasing around coal use. UM. The other thing that

2376
02:18:54,879 --> 02:18:58,720
Speaker 1: caught that cut twenty six tried to do was increase

2377
02:18:59,080 --> 02:19:03,480
Speaker 1: financial help or so called developing countries and provide funds

2378
02:19:03,480 --> 02:19:07,400
Speaker 1: and assistance for like climate disasters. So like when when

2379
02:19:07,440 --> 02:19:10,119
Speaker 1: like extreme weather events happen, have a set of funds

2380
02:19:10,560 --> 02:19:14,560
Speaker 1: UH set aside to help countries in these disasters. Now

2381
02:19:14,920 --> 02:19:17,560
Speaker 1: those are that that is a good idea, But as

2382
02:19:17,560 --> 02:19:19,800
Speaker 1: we'll see later, the way Cops twenty six actually did

2383
02:19:19,800 --> 02:19:22,480
Speaker 1: it is not actually doing it. It's like they're they're

2384
02:19:22,520 --> 02:19:25,360
Speaker 1: they're pushing there, they're postponing this kind of goal, but

2385
02:19:25,440 --> 02:19:30,040
Speaker 1: they're just making it a prospect. But back to coal. So,

2386
02:19:30,440 --> 02:19:33,039
Speaker 1: the Glasgow Climate Pact was the first ever climate deal

2387
02:19:33,080 --> 02:19:36,920
Speaker 1: to explicitly planned to reduce coal, which was a one

2388
02:19:37,040 --> 02:19:41,000
Speaker 1: one of the worst. Like fossil fuels for four greenhouse

2389
02:19:41,040 --> 02:19:44,480
Speaker 1: gasses UM and and and cole really can be phased out.

2390
02:19:45,000 --> 02:19:48,640
Speaker 1: Coal can be phased out by UM electric power really easily.

2391
02:19:48,680 --> 02:19:52,520
Speaker 1: It's it's it is the easiest one. UM. It's it's

2392
02:19:52,760 --> 02:19:55,360
Speaker 1: way easier to phase out coal than it is uh

2393
02:19:55,520 --> 02:20:01,120
Speaker 1: natural gas or other um or sorry, let's see the

2394
02:20:01,120 --> 02:20:04,039
Speaker 1: the the other main one. There's three. There's a coal,

2395
02:20:04,240 --> 02:20:10,920
Speaker 1: natural gas, what's what's the last one? Regular gas? I

2396
02:20:10,920 --> 02:20:14,640
Speaker 1: guess so yeah, yeah, petroleum based stuff. UM. Yeah, but

2397
02:20:14,680 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 1: so the coals because coal is you mostly used for heat, um,

2398
02:20:18,560 --> 02:20:22,520
Speaker 1: electrically generated heat is way is way easier than all

2399
02:20:22,720 --> 02:20:25,360
Speaker 1: than those other two. So coal coal really should be

2400
02:20:25,360 --> 02:20:28,640
Speaker 1: phased out as soon as possible. UM. But the commitments

2401
02:20:28,680 --> 02:20:32,360
Speaker 1: to phase out coal that was introduced in earlier negotiations

2402
02:20:32,920 --> 02:20:36,640
Speaker 1: UM led to some fighting, specifically among India and China,

2403
02:20:36,760 --> 02:20:41,039
Speaker 1: who were in in strong opposition to the phrasing and

2404
02:20:41,720 --> 02:20:47,160
Speaker 1: the actual constraints of of the deal UM. And a

2405
02:20:47,160 --> 02:20:49,879
Speaker 1: lot of this is like the argument that like, if

2406
02:20:49,920 --> 02:20:52,760
Speaker 1: these countries are still developing, it's not fair to them

2407
02:20:53,040 --> 02:20:56,440
Speaker 1: to remove this resource when other developed nations had it,

2408
02:20:56,560 --> 02:20:58,000
Speaker 1: so that that that's that's the thing. We see that

2409
02:20:58,080 --> 02:21:00,280
Speaker 1: argument a lot around, Like climate changed to of as

2410
02:21:00,360 --> 02:21:02,800
Speaker 1: like oh, you you're just gonna stop other countries from

2411
02:21:02,800 --> 02:21:05,959
Speaker 1: developing because you you you got to get to this

2412
02:21:06,120 --> 02:21:11,040
Speaker 1: certain point of being a successful like wealthy nation um.

2413
02:21:11,080 --> 02:21:13,960
Speaker 1: And like you know with all this like industrial development

2414
02:21:14,480 --> 02:21:17,560
Speaker 1: on the back of fossil fuels and stuff. But then

2415
02:21:17,560 --> 02:21:19,760
Speaker 1: now you're going to remove that opportunity for other countries.

2416
02:21:19,800 --> 02:21:22,320
Speaker 1: Now there is there is um a lot of stuff

2417
02:21:22,320 --> 02:21:25,480
Speaker 1: around like the growth frameworks that address this issue and

2418
02:21:25,560 --> 02:21:30,280
Speaker 1: specifically try to try to get um fossil fuel savings

2419
02:21:30,320 --> 02:21:33,640
Speaker 1: like a decrease in emissions and be able to use

2420
02:21:33,879 --> 02:21:37,240
Speaker 1: some of those gains to assist countries in getting stuff

2421
02:21:37,400 --> 02:21:40,160
Speaker 1: set up to a decent standard of living. UM. But

2422
02:21:40,240 --> 02:21:42,240
Speaker 1: you know that that is going to be addressed on

2423
02:21:42,280 --> 02:21:45,200
Speaker 1: a whole other scale around like capitalism and and how

2424
02:21:45,320 --> 02:21:48,280
Speaker 1: countries intervened in other countries. That that's part of a

2425
02:21:48,280 --> 02:21:51,959
Speaker 1: bigger political question. But anyway, UM, Indian China did not

2426
02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:54,240
Speaker 1: like that, did not like the cold deal. UM. So

2427
02:21:54,360 --> 02:21:58,440
Speaker 1: in the end, the countries did agree to phase down

2428
02:21:58,760 --> 02:22:02,000
Speaker 1: coal rather than these out coal. So that that that

2429
02:22:02,160 --> 02:22:07,000
Speaker 1: is the phrase that they ended up using is phased down. UM.

2430
02:22:07,080 --> 02:22:11,560
Speaker 1: The people weren't super happy about this. Uh. The Cutty

2431
02:22:11,600 --> 02:22:15,320
Speaker 1: six president um Alec Sharma said that he was deeply

2432
02:22:15,440 --> 02:22:19,280
Speaker 1: sorry for how these events unfolded, and like, focus on

2433
02:22:19,320 --> 02:22:22,040
Speaker 1: coal is good. It's because it's responsible for about of

2434
02:22:22,080 --> 02:22:25,920
Speaker 1: annual CEO two emissions. But also like just focusing on

2435
02:22:26,000 --> 02:22:30,000
Speaker 1: coal leaves of really big lack of discussion on oil

2436
02:22:30,040 --> 02:22:33,240
Speaker 1: and gas, Like there's like those are also like very

2437
02:22:33,280 --> 02:22:35,920
Speaker 1: bad and arguably we should be focusing on those a lot,

2438
02:22:36,000 --> 02:22:38,760
Speaker 1: Like those are those are the main ones we should

2439
02:22:38,760 --> 02:22:40,120
Speaker 1: get we should get rid of coal, Yes, but if

2440
02:22:40,160 --> 02:22:42,960
Speaker 1: we just focus on that, then there's a lot of

2441
02:22:43,000 --> 02:22:46,640
Speaker 1: other stuff going on. So that is that is a

2442
02:22:46,640 --> 02:22:51,760
Speaker 1: lot of coal talk. Uh you know who also uses coal?

2443
02:22:54,240 --> 02:23:00,000
Speaker 1: Our sponsors, Yeah, we're entirely sponsored by Joe Manchin um

2444
02:23:00,160 --> 02:23:03,080
Speaker 1: big friend of the pod. Thank you, thank you for

2445
02:23:03,120 --> 02:23:07,880
Speaker 1: always having our back. Joe. Anyway, here's some ads and

2446
02:23:08,080 --> 02:23:12,280
Speaker 1: we are back talking about copy and there is there

2447
02:23:12,360 --> 02:23:15,640
Speaker 1: is a decent there's stuff. Stuff did happen. So and

2448
02:23:15,640 --> 02:23:17,200
Speaker 1: I know it is going to be more of a

2449
02:23:17,560 --> 02:23:20,359
Speaker 1: sign C in Numbers episode, but it is worth actually

2450
02:23:20,680 --> 02:23:24,600
Speaker 1: figuring out what what happened there because everyone just kind

2451
02:23:24,600 --> 02:23:27,480
Speaker 1: of had the perception like, oh, copy was a failure,

2452
02:23:27,520 --> 02:23:29,800
Speaker 1: because yeah it was, um, but it's it's it is

2453
02:23:29,840 --> 02:23:32,640
Speaker 1: good to know what actually is going on at things

2454
02:23:32,720 --> 02:23:35,280
Speaker 1: like this because if we're going to get some kind

2455
02:23:35,320 --> 02:23:38,400
Speaker 1: of you know, liberal change, this is where it's going

2456
02:23:38,440 --> 02:23:40,680
Speaker 1: to happen. So it is good to keep an eye

2457
02:23:40,680 --> 02:23:44,080
Speaker 1: on what these types of people are thinking. So we

2458
02:23:44,160 --> 02:23:47,280
Speaker 1: we left off on talking about how their plans to

2459
02:23:47,320 --> 02:23:50,000
Speaker 1: face down coal, and there was like a general lack

2460
02:23:50,040 --> 02:23:52,800
Speaker 1: of focus on oil and gas. And it is interesting,

2461
02:23:53,040 --> 02:23:59,920
Speaker 1: um if you So there was a group of actor

2462
02:24:00,080 --> 02:24:03,520
Speaker 1: bests led by this uh I think I think it's

2463
02:24:03,520 --> 02:24:08,519
Speaker 1: like an NGO called Global Witness. UM assessed the participant

2464
02:24:08,600 --> 02:24:11,280
Speaker 1: list published by the u N at the start of

2465
02:24:11,320 --> 02:24:14,320
Speaker 1: the meeting, and they found that there was five hundred

2466
02:24:14,320 --> 02:24:17,560
Speaker 1: and three people with links to fossil fuel interests who

2467
02:24:17,640 --> 02:24:22,480
Speaker 1: were like accredited members of the Climate's Summit and so,

2468
02:24:22,760 --> 02:24:25,959
Speaker 1: and they were like delicates. So cop twenty six delegates

2469
02:24:25,959 --> 02:24:30,240
Speaker 1: associated with fossil fuels outnumbered national delegate numbers for every

2470
02:24:30,240 --> 02:24:34,800
Speaker 1: other country. So there were more people representing fossil fuel

2471
02:24:34,800 --> 02:24:40,480
Speaker 1: interests than there were representing any individual country. So you're thinking,

2472
02:24:41,720 --> 02:24:44,360
Speaker 1: maybe maybe I wonder why this stuff is not going

2473
02:24:44,440 --> 02:24:48,040
Speaker 1: too good. Oh, it's because it's being run mostly by

2474
02:24:48,040 --> 02:24:53,400
Speaker 1: fossil fuel companies. That's that's uh huh, that's an interesting,

2475
02:24:53,600 --> 02:24:58,800
Speaker 1: interesting little thing there. Um yeah. So the the other

2476
02:24:58,879 --> 02:25:03,160
Speaker 1: the other kind of notable thing about is uh it

2477
02:25:03,400 --> 02:25:06,720
Speaker 1: uh it. It led to a quote unquote breakthrough in

2478
02:25:06,840 --> 02:25:11,480
Speaker 1: the rules for government led carbon markets. So this is

2479
02:25:11,520 --> 02:25:15,320
Speaker 1: the thing that the neoliberals are really excited about, is

2480
02:25:15,360 --> 02:25:17,600
Speaker 1: this idea of carbon markets, because it's a way to

2481
02:25:18,240 --> 02:25:22,360
Speaker 1: make more money kind of off of removing carbon and

2482
02:25:22,520 --> 02:25:25,640
Speaker 1: just to create a lot of red tape and bureaucracy

2483
02:25:25,680 --> 02:25:29,800
Speaker 1: around this idea of lowering emissions. So, I guess one

2484
02:25:29,840 --> 02:25:31,680
Speaker 1: of the ways to describe carbon markets if you're kind

2485
02:25:31,680 --> 02:25:37,039
Speaker 1: of unfamiliar with this idea, is that countries that do

2486
02:25:37,120 --> 02:25:41,720
Speaker 1: not meet their emission reduction targets in their national climate

2487
02:25:41,800 --> 02:25:48,279
Speaker 1: pledges are like penalized for this. Um so, so countries

2488
02:25:48,280 --> 02:25:51,000
Speaker 1: that countries that don't meet their mission targets or or

2489
02:25:51,160 --> 02:25:55,680
Speaker 1: want to just pursue like less less expansive emission cuts.

2490
02:25:56,080 --> 02:25:59,720
Speaker 1: What what what this deal set out to do is

2491
02:25:59,760 --> 02:26:04,480
Speaker 1: that instead of actually lowering emissions, they can purchase like

2492
02:26:04,560 --> 02:26:09,200
Speaker 1: emissions reduction tokens and credits from other nations that have

2493
02:26:09,440 --> 02:26:12,359
Speaker 1: cut their emissions more than the amount that they pledged.

2494
02:26:12,840 --> 02:26:15,400
Speaker 1: Uh so, like by you know, moving to low carbon

2495
02:26:15,600 --> 02:26:19,440
Speaker 1: energy and various stuff. So the turn of phrase that

2496
02:26:19,520 --> 02:26:22,160
Speaker 1: people were using to discuss this to how you can

2497
02:26:22,200 --> 02:26:25,800
Speaker 1: like purchase purchase credits to represent emissions that you didn't

2498
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:29,680
Speaker 1: cut but wanted to, is that this can potentially unlock

2499
02:26:29,920 --> 02:26:34,520
Speaker 1: trillions of dollars for protecting forests, expanding renewable energy, and

2500
02:26:34,640 --> 02:26:39,680
Speaker 1: other projects to combat climate change. Um. So the idea

2501
02:26:39,800 --> 02:26:42,360
Speaker 1: here is that the money used to purchase these credits

2502
02:26:42,480 --> 02:26:46,360
Speaker 1: is going to get put into other things that will

2503
02:26:46,400 --> 02:26:50,360
Speaker 1: help fight climate change. But all of this is non

2504
02:26:50,400 --> 02:26:54,279
Speaker 1: binding and speculative, and it just furthers this whole carbon

2505
02:26:54,360 --> 02:26:59,600
Speaker 1: market concept, which I'm not thrilled about. Um yeah, we should,

2506
02:26:59,600 --> 02:27:01,680
Speaker 1: we should do like a full episode of carbon markets.

2507
02:27:01,800 --> 02:27:06,000
Speaker 1: But the thing, so I I this is, you know,

2508
02:27:06,040 --> 02:27:08,959
Speaker 1: this is the thing I studied academically in college and

2509
02:27:09,400 --> 02:27:11,840
Speaker 1: is incredibly important for everyone to understand that carbon markets

2510
02:27:11,840 --> 02:27:14,640
Speaker 1: are fake and do not work at all. Ever one

2511
02:27:14,720 --> 02:27:17,000
Speaker 1: has ever gotten where, no one's ever gotten the national

2512
02:27:17,000 --> 02:27:18,720
Speaker 1: one to work, and no one's ever got an international

2513
02:27:18,720 --> 02:27:22,640
Speaker 1: one to work. Uh. Implementation of carbon markets, Like China

2514
02:27:22,879 --> 02:27:25,080
Speaker 1: had a big thing that they're gonna implemented carbon market. Uh,

2515
02:27:25,200 --> 02:27:28,359
Speaker 1: it was fake. It didn't work. Their carbon emission still increase,

2516
02:27:29,040 --> 02:27:32,760
Speaker 1: very very like how fucky carbon markets can be. So

2517
02:27:32,840 --> 02:27:35,880
Speaker 1: you get carbon credits if you're a business like Tesla

2518
02:27:36,120 --> 02:27:41,080
Speaker 1: that makes no emission electronic vehicles, and Tesla for a

2519
02:27:41,160 --> 02:27:43,480
Speaker 1: lot of its earlier history, made a significant chunk of

2520
02:27:43,520 --> 02:27:47,879
Speaker 1: its profits selling carbon credits to polluting industries and basically saying,

2521
02:27:48,120 --> 02:27:50,760
Speaker 1: you guys keep polluting, we got your back. Like the

2522
02:27:51,120 --> 02:27:53,360
Speaker 1: fact that we're putting electric cars out onto the street

2523
02:27:53,440 --> 02:27:55,720
Speaker 1: means you guys can keep admitting at the same well,

2524
02:27:55,840 --> 02:28:00,039
Speaker 1: like that's that's like literally how how kind of the

2525
02:28:00,040 --> 02:28:03,440
Speaker 1: the business can work. It's it's not the best way

2526
02:28:03,480 --> 02:28:06,920
Speaker 1: to fix the problem. Yeah, So there's a lot of

2527
02:28:07,000 --> 02:28:10,240
Speaker 1: a lot of talk was around carbon markets, um, because

2528
02:28:10,320 --> 02:28:14,080
Speaker 1: that's of course with the neo liberal establishment, neo liberal

2529
02:28:14,120 --> 02:28:18,160
Speaker 1: eblishment is going to focus on because it's still is

2530
02:28:18,200 --> 02:28:21,120
Speaker 1: within their kind of worldview. Um, how do we monetize

2531
02:28:21,160 --> 02:28:23,400
Speaker 1: the rot? Yeah? How do we how do we make

2532
02:28:23,480 --> 02:28:27,160
Speaker 1: money off of the world ending? Um? Which I guess

2533
02:28:27,200 --> 02:28:29,560
Speaker 1: we're going to see a lot more of that, uh

2534
02:28:29,640 --> 02:28:32,640
Speaker 1: in the next in the next few decades. Um. The

2535
02:28:32,640 --> 02:28:35,200
Speaker 1: the other the other thing that they decided on is, uh,

2536
02:28:35,440 --> 02:28:37,800
Speaker 1: next year, there's gonna there's gonna be again. So there's

2537
02:28:37,840 --> 02:28:41,480
Speaker 1: there's they decided to procrastinate, which is just a general

2538
02:28:41,520 --> 02:28:44,879
Speaker 1: theme of COP conferences is what we've been doing with

2539
02:28:45,360 --> 02:28:48,360
Speaker 1: It's what everyone's been doing about permit change since forever.

2540
02:28:48,720 --> 02:28:52,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, the main thing they do is decide to procrastinate.

2541
02:28:52,440 --> 02:28:55,240
Speaker 1: Um So, next year there's gonna be a U N

2542
02:28:55,280 --> 02:28:59,879
Speaker 1: Committee to report on progress towards delivering one billion dollar

2543
02:29:00,080 --> 02:29:04,000
Speaker 1: per year in a promised climate funding. Uh. This was

2544
02:29:04,080 --> 02:29:07,520
Speaker 1: after rich nations failed to deliver on the deadline four

2545
02:29:07,640 --> 02:29:11,200
Speaker 1: said funds um and then financing is gonna be discussed

2546
02:29:11,200 --> 02:29:15,840
Speaker 1: again in twenty four six those conferences. Um. But this

2547
02:29:15,840 --> 02:29:19,120
Speaker 1: this deal left a lot of more vulnerable nations who

2548
02:29:19,120 --> 02:29:23,000
Speaker 1: were going to rely on this promised funding. Uh kind

2549
02:29:23,040 --> 02:29:26,160
Speaker 1: of just they just left them without things. So the

2550
02:29:26,160 --> 02:29:29,119
Speaker 1: whole idea was that like, yeah, we need this funding

2551
02:29:29,160 --> 02:29:32,720
Speaker 1: to help people in these and disasters and different losses

2552
02:29:32,720 --> 02:29:36,400
Speaker 1: and damages and to help you know, start start making

2553
02:29:36,440 --> 02:29:41,440
Speaker 1: more um renewable energy technology in lieu of doing tons

2554
02:29:41,440 --> 02:29:43,640
Speaker 1: of tons of coal mining. And that's where this money

2555
02:29:43,680 --> 02:29:46,680
Speaker 1: was going to get used for and it's not happening.

2556
02:29:47,080 --> 02:29:52,920
Speaker 1: Um So. And this this promise was initially made at

2557
02:29:52,959 --> 02:29:58,240
Speaker 1: a UN Conference on Climate Change, and we're still we're

2558
02:29:58,240 --> 02:30:02,320
Speaker 1: still pushing it back year by year. So this pledge

2559
02:30:02,360 --> 02:30:06,360
Speaker 1: is older than I am. Yeah, it sure is. Another

2560
02:30:06,360 --> 02:30:09,240
Speaker 1: pledge me into us A nine to provide a hundred

2561
02:30:09,240 --> 02:30:12,480
Speaker 1: billion dollars to emerging economies was supposed to be made.

2562
02:30:13,280 --> 02:30:15,840
Speaker 1: That also was missed. Um and it was. It was

2563
02:30:15,879 --> 02:30:18,400
Speaker 1: designed to help nations adapt to climate effects and make

2564
02:30:18,400 --> 02:30:22,840
Speaker 1: the transition to clean energy. Um and uh. The Cops

2565
02:30:22,840 --> 02:30:25,879
Speaker 1: Spring six president said that around five dred billion will

2566
02:30:25,879 --> 02:30:32,840
Speaker 1: be mobilized by so cool. Thanks for saying those numbers

2567
02:30:32,879 --> 02:30:35,720
Speaker 1: which mean nothing. It's fun. It's fun how you can

2568
02:30:35,760 --> 02:30:38,160
Speaker 1: just talk and say things and it doesn't actually matter.

2569
02:30:39,000 --> 02:30:41,320
Speaker 1: It's It's one of the things that's so frustrating about

2570
02:30:41,320 --> 02:30:45,039
Speaker 1: this is trying to get a handle on, like how

2571
02:30:45,080 --> 02:30:47,520
Speaker 1: how a lot of these solutions are supposed to work. So,

2572
02:30:47,600 --> 02:30:49,640
Speaker 1: like one of the articles if you're trying to actually

2573
02:30:50,240 --> 02:30:51,960
Speaker 1: if you're not just taking our word for it, which

2574
02:30:51,959 --> 02:30:54,920
Speaker 1: you never should, and trying to research like carbon credits

2575
02:30:55,000 --> 02:30:57,640
Speaker 1: and and carbon markets and like how they might work

2576
02:30:57,760 --> 02:31:00,000
Speaker 1: or might help. Like one of the articles you're gonna

2577
02:31:00,040 --> 02:31:03,400
Speaker 1: come across is an article in Nature dot org called

2578
02:31:03,480 --> 02:31:06,680
Speaker 1: making carbon Markets Work for faster climate action. And this

2579
02:31:06,760 --> 02:31:10,080
Speaker 1: is very much obviously it's pretty it's pretty recent, and

2580
02:31:10,120 --> 02:31:12,840
Speaker 1: it's not at all a climate denial piece. It's it's

2581
02:31:12,879 --> 02:31:15,560
Speaker 1: just kind of laying out a case for how carbon

2582
02:31:15,640 --> 02:31:20,400
Speaker 1: markets could be very effective at reducing emissions. But you

2583
02:31:20,480 --> 02:31:22,160
Speaker 1: have to grapple the whole time you're looking at this

2584
02:31:22,160 --> 02:31:26,760
Speaker 1: with the fact that like they haven't that that global

2585
02:31:27,160 --> 02:31:30,080
Speaker 1: global emissions are still shoo and they provide a number

2586
02:31:30,080 --> 02:31:34,119
Speaker 1: of like options for how this could work. And it's

2587
02:31:34,120 --> 02:31:35,520
Speaker 1: one of those things where I'm not going to say

2588
02:31:36,040 --> 02:31:38,640
Speaker 1: it's impossible. I'm certainly not an expert on this, and

2589
02:31:38,680 --> 02:31:41,600
Speaker 1: you can read through the article um if you want,

2590
02:31:41,720 --> 02:31:45,280
Speaker 1: but it's it's certainly certainly think the thing you can

2591
02:31:45,320 --> 02:31:47,960
Speaker 1: say right now is that carbon markets have not led

2592
02:31:48,080 --> 02:31:50,600
Speaker 1: to a global decrease in emissions, because we we have

2593
02:31:50,680 --> 02:31:53,920
Speaker 1: not had emissions decrease other than that little dip we

2594
02:31:53,959 --> 02:31:59,280
Speaker 1: had when a covid uh did It's it's sweet little dance. Yeah,

2595
02:31:59,360 --> 02:32:03,320
Speaker 1: that one month where we could actually see the sky again. Yeah,

2596
02:32:03,360 --> 02:32:06,840
Speaker 1: that was pretty rad um. But yeah, there's there's I mean,

2597
02:32:06,920 --> 02:32:08,600
Speaker 1: you you can check that article out for kind of

2598
02:32:08,640 --> 02:32:12,160
Speaker 1: the pro carbon markets case. It all seems I Mean,

2599
02:32:12,160 --> 02:32:14,200
Speaker 1: one of the things that's frustrating to me about it

2600
02:32:14,240 --> 02:32:18,560
Speaker 1: is it all it's all like, yeah, here's how it

2601
02:32:18,680 --> 02:32:21,560
Speaker 1: might work. If you know, everybody got on board the

2602
02:32:21,560 --> 02:32:24,960
Speaker 1: Paris Climate Agreement and also all of this worked ideally,

2603
02:32:25,600 --> 02:32:27,440
Speaker 1: But there's there just doesn't seem to be a lot

2604
02:32:27,480 --> 02:32:31,600
Speaker 1: of I I just don't see any evidence that like

2605
02:32:31,760 --> 02:32:35,720
Speaker 1: they've shown that this is actually likely to be helpful. Um.

2606
02:32:35,760 --> 02:32:38,320
Speaker 1: It's more just like yeah, this this could this could

2607
02:32:38,320 --> 02:32:42,440
Speaker 1: work if if we do these other things, um, which

2608
02:32:42,480 --> 02:32:44,440
Speaker 1: is frustrating. That's like all all of the kind of

2609
02:32:44,440 --> 02:32:46,560
Speaker 1: ship that you get at at at COP twenty six,

2610
02:32:46,600 --> 02:32:49,280
Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, I guess theoretically, if you were

2611
02:32:49,280 --> 02:32:51,000
Speaker 1: to do that, or if that were to work the

2612
02:32:51,000 --> 02:32:52,640
Speaker 1: way you're saying, or if that were to work with

2613
02:32:52,680 --> 02:32:55,960
Speaker 1: the assumption that like all these other factors don't grow

2614
02:32:56,000 --> 02:32:58,920
Speaker 1: over this period of time, than than this might help.

2615
02:32:59,040 --> 02:33:03,879
Speaker 1: But we also know what's happened with emissions and global

2616
02:33:03,920 --> 02:33:07,240
Speaker 1: attempts to reduce climate change, um. Which is not to

2617
02:33:07,280 --> 02:33:11,039
Speaker 1: say that like like emissions in the United States, like

2618
02:33:11,120 --> 02:33:12,760
Speaker 1: there have been there's been a lot that's been done

2619
02:33:12,760 --> 02:33:15,480
Speaker 1: to curb emissions from the United States. Now the thing

2620
02:33:15,560 --> 02:33:17,960
Speaker 1: that's often left out of like the discussion of these

2621
02:33:17,959 --> 02:33:20,879
Speaker 1: different things and how they impacted our emissions is like, well,

2622
02:33:20,920 --> 02:33:23,200
Speaker 1: a lot of those emissions got pushed off to other

2623
02:33:23,280 --> 02:33:25,400
Speaker 1: countries that are now making the things that we were

2624
02:33:25,440 --> 02:33:28,280
Speaker 1: making for I like that. That's the big thing when

2625
02:33:28,320 --> 02:33:30,840
Speaker 1: people argue against the growth and they're like, no, you can.

2626
02:33:30,920 --> 02:33:34,199
Speaker 1: You can still keep growing your economy while lowering emissions,

2627
02:33:34,200 --> 02:33:37,720
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, one country can, but we still want

2628
02:33:37,760 --> 02:33:40,320
Speaker 1: the stuff, so we're just moving it to other countries

2629
02:33:40,360 --> 02:33:43,800
Speaker 1: to produce, so like we're not actually lowering it on

2630
02:33:43,840 --> 02:33:45,959
Speaker 1: a global level. You can lower you can lower it

2631
02:33:45,959 --> 02:33:49,480
Speaker 1: on like an individual country level, but not totally globally

2632
02:33:49,480 --> 02:33:51,920
Speaker 1: because we still want to consume the thing. This is

2633
02:33:52,000 --> 02:33:54,280
Speaker 1: one of the single most frustrating things about talking to

2634
02:33:54,280 --> 02:33:57,000
Speaker 1: peopleball climate change is that, Okay, you know, if you

2635
02:33:57,000 --> 02:33:58,560
Speaker 1: if you talk to the sort of Neiler book carbon

2636
02:33:58,600 --> 02:34:02,160
Speaker 1: market people, right, if you talk about literally anything else, right,

2637
02:34:02,240 --> 02:34:04,080
Speaker 1: the only thing they ever talked about is how the

2638
02:34:04,160 --> 02:34:06,720
Speaker 1: entire world is inter connected, how the entire economies and connected,

2639
02:34:06,720 --> 02:34:09,160
Speaker 1: how we're ward are connected than ever. And then the

2640
02:34:09,200 --> 02:34:12,560
Speaker 1: moment you start talking about climate change, they go, oh, well,

2641
02:34:12,560 --> 02:34:14,920
Speaker 1: it's all the individual country individual country, individual country. The

2642
02:34:14,920 --> 02:34:16,880
Speaker 1: economy is not connected at all. It's all about the

2643
02:34:16,879 --> 02:34:19,960
Speaker 1: individual policy makers country. It's like, no, it's not the

2644
02:34:20,000 --> 02:34:23,080
Speaker 1: it's it's about like all all of the like the

2645
02:34:23,080 --> 02:34:26,560
Speaker 1: the the the the the emissions are foreign direct investment driven. Right,

2646
02:34:26,680 --> 02:34:28,280
Speaker 1: it's about it's a it's about's about what it's about

2647
02:34:28,280 --> 02:34:32,840
Speaker 1: where investment money is going. And you cannot and you

2648
02:34:32,879 --> 02:34:34,680
Speaker 1: know this, this is this is why COP and someone

2649
02:34:34,800 --> 02:34:36,440
Speaker 1: is like, this is why it doesn't work. And even

2650
02:34:36,440 --> 02:34:38,080
Speaker 1: though it's the only frame rate that could work, right,

2651
02:34:38,080 --> 02:34:39,879
Speaker 1: you have to have an international response that has to

2652
02:34:39,879 --> 02:34:43,360
Speaker 1: be coordinated, it has to be working across national lines

2653
02:34:43,400 --> 02:34:46,200
Speaker 1: because again that's how the economystem works. But it doesn't

2654
02:34:46,560 --> 02:34:50,400
Speaker 1: because a state's individual states can't and will not ever

2655
02:34:50,480 --> 02:34:53,720
Speaker 1: solve this. And then be COP is like, okay, so

2656
02:34:53,760 --> 02:34:56,000
Speaker 1: here's here's your international framework. But also we're just gonna

2657
02:34:56,080 --> 02:34:59,200
Speaker 1: have you know, the actual the the the actual international

2658
02:34:59,240 --> 02:35:01,920
Speaker 1: framework is going to you just essentially hair it up

2659
02:35:01,959 --> 02:35:04,959
Speaker 1: by bunch of fossil fuel companies and so it's just

2660
02:35:05,280 --> 02:35:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's the worst of both worlds. I mean,

2661
02:35:08,240 --> 02:35:11,400
Speaker 1: it's and it you can see there's there's some kind

2662
02:35:11,400 --> 02:35:14,680
Speaker 1: of acknowledgement at the fact that this is an international

2663
02:35:14,720 --> 02:35:18,119
Speaker 1: problem in in like the basic idea of of carbon markets,

2664
02:35:18,160 --> 02:35:22,400
Speaker 1: which includes the idea that like, um, you can companies

2665
02:35:22,440 --> 02:35:25,240
Speaker 1: that that emit emit lesson don't use up their carbon

2666
02:35:25,280 --> 02:35:27,480
Speaker 1: budget can like sell carbon credits and you can do

2667
02:35:27,520 --> 02:35:31,039
Speaker 1: this across international lines. And like if we hold if

2668
02:35:31,040 --> 02:35:35,400
Speaker 1: we hold companies to different like emission standards internationally based

2669
02:35:35,400 --> 02:35:37,800
Speaker 1: on things like the Paris Climate Agreement, then that will

2670
02:35:37,840 --> 02:35:41,520
Speaker 1: cause the carbon credit system to work better. Um, there's

2671
02:35:41,520 --> 02:35:44,360
Speaker 1: that acknowledgement that it is an international problem. But again

2672
02:35:44,440 --> 02:35:48,279
Speaker 1: I just don't I don't see I don't see evidence

2673
02:35:48,320 --> 02:35:51,400
Speaker 1: that it's working, and they like none of the evidence

2674
02:35:51,440 --> 02:35:55,040
Speaker 1: that I've read makes it seem like there's a very

2675
02:35:55,040 --> 02:35:57,200
Speaker 1: good case that this is going to at the very least,

2676
02:35:57,200 --> 02:35:58,920
Speaker 1: that this is going to provide the kind of emissions

2677
02:35:58,920 --> 02:36:02,840
Speaker 1: productions that are necessary to forestall the worst case scenarios

2678
02:36:02,879 --> 02:36:05,960
Speaker 1: that are coming. Um. And if we're gonna be again

2679
02:36:06,000 --> 02:36:08,840
Speaker 1: to be completely intellectually honest here, we can talk about

2680
02:36:08,920 --> 02:36:12,520
Speaker 1: d growth all day long. UM. I have a similar

2681
02:36:12,560 --> 02:36:15,080
Speaker 1: problem with that that I do to a lot of

2682
02:36:15,080 --> 02:36:19,959
Speaker 1: these the different kind of targets that copy six introduced

2683
02:36:20,040 --> 02:36:23,800
Speaker 1: stuff like carbon markets, where it's like I don't I

2684
02:36:23,840 --> 02:36:28,360
Speaker 1: don't see that solving the problem either. It's like a

2685
02:36:28,400 --> 02:36:31,320
Speaker 1: theoretical it's it's yeah, if we were to get people

2686
02:36:31,360 --> 02:36:34,760
Speaker 1: to if if we've gotten people on board with D growth,

2687
02:36:34,800 --> 02:36:38,080
Speaker 1: then you've already fundamentally shifted the very nature of global

2688
02:36:38,120 --> 02:36:41,640
Speaker 1: society um. And also the way in which Americans and

2689
02:36:41,680 --> 02:36:45,400
Speaker 1: people in other Western nations like conceived of economics at

2690
02:36:45,400 --> 02:36:49,480
Speaker 1: a fundamental level. Um. And so it's it's one thing

2691
02:36:49,520 --> 02:36:53,520
Speaker 1: to say that, like, yeah, if people accepted that and

2692
02:36:53,520 --> 02:36:56,720
Speaker 1: and got on board with a lifestyle that is not

2693
02:36:56,800 --> 02:36:59,880
Speaker 1: based on this this kind of capitalist notion of endless growth,

2694
02:37:00,000 --> 02:37:02,720
Speaker 1: of ever increasing extraction from the world in order to

2695
02:37:02,760 --> 02:37:07,480
Speaker 1: create value, um, then we could we could actually stop

2696
02:37:07,520 --> 02:37:09,200
Speaker 1: emitting at the kind of levels that are going to

2697
02:37:09,280 --> 02:37:12,800
Speaker 1: lead to these horrible consequences. UM. The question is like,

2698
02:37:13,080 --> 02:37:16,440
Speaker 1: I don't see a I don't see you you can.

2699
02:37:16,760 --> 02:37:19,080
Speaker 1: I think you can argue that D growth is more

2700
02:37:19,160 --> 02:37:23,560
Speaker 1: realistic in that yes, that would absolutely work, as opposed

2701
02:37:23,600 --> 02:37:25,800
Speaker 1: to carbon credits and other things where it's like, well,

2702
02:37:25,840 --> 02:37:28,680
Speaker 1: theoretically it might work if they do all this other stuff. Yeah,

2703
02:37:28,760 --> 02:37:33,360
Speaker 1: it does. It does revolve on the cultural notion of

2704
02:37:33,600 --> 02:37:37,960
Speaker 1: America and the West completely changing. Um it's a big

2705
02:37:37,959 --> 02:37:40,280
Speaker 1: it's a big ask, you know, yeah, And I mean

2706
02:37:40,280 --> 02:37:44,000
Speaker 1: like there is there's smaller steps, like totally like reorganizing

2707
02:37:44,000 --> 02:37:46,560
Speaker 1: how cities work so we do not use cars, uh,

2708
02:37:46,800 --> 02:37:50,519
Speaker 1: like like like re redoing a public transportation like sector

2709
02:37:50,920 --> 02:37:54,360
Speaker 1: uh in you know, making like making like a cellar

2710
02:37:54,400 --> 02:37:57,039
Speaker 1: panels and a rowable energy I required part of like

2711
02:37:57,160 --> 02:37:58,960
Speaker 1: city infrastructure right there. There's a there's a lot of

2712
02:37:59,000 --> 02:38:02,200
Speaker 1: ways to put just two awards that thing. But there's

2713
02:38:02,200 --> 02:38:04,200
Speaker 1: not one thing we can do right because it is

2714
02:38:04,280 --> 02:38:07,360
Speaker 1: in large parts of cultural change. Stuff stuff will help

2715
02:38:07,400 --> 02:38:10,840
Speaker 1: with emissions, Like if we if we redesign cities around

2716
02:38:10,840 --> 02:38:13,640
Speaker 1: public transportation and make it so stuff is not as

2717
02:38:13,680 --> 02:38:16,160
Speaker 1: as far apart, and yeah, that that's gonna help lower emissions.

2718
02:38:16,160 --> 02:38:18,640
Speaker 1: If we if we require all these other types of

2719
02:38:18,840 --> 02:38:23,160
Speaker 1: renewable energy projects to be built into buildings and added

2720
02:38:23,240 --> 02:38:25,320
Speaker 1: on to our current cities, and yeah, that that is

2721
02:38:25,320 --> 02:38:28,400
Speaker 1: going to help lower emissions. But you know, there's there's

2722
02:38:28,440 --> 02:38:31,120
Speaker 1: not one one big step that we can all do

2723
02:38:31,160 --> 02:38:33,920
Speaker 1: at the same time. And I think that that's I

2724
02:38:33,920 --> 02:38:36,760
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm of two minds about it. One part

2725
02:38:36,760 --> 02:38:40,160
Speaker 1: of me says, that's absolutely the most intelligent way to

2726
02:38:40,160 --> 02:38:44,200
Speaker 1: go about it is focusing on things like reducing the

2727
02:38:44,280 --> 02:38:47,400
Speaker 1: use of like like like really all ending car culture

2728
02:38:47,520 --> 02:38:50,560
Speaker 1: in cities. Yeah, because it's not even a reduction thing.

2729
02:38:50,600 --> 02:38:52,840
Speaker 1: It has to be like that that has to die.

2730
02:38:53,480 --> 02:38:55,920
Speaker 1: Um But we're a lot closer to that than ending

2731
02:38:56,040 --> 02:39:02,800
Speaker 1: the idea of like capitalism U because they're at number

2732
02:39:02,840 --> 02:39:06,160
Speaker 1: one one, because there are capitalists, very capitalist countries that

2733
02:39:06,280 --> 02:39:08,520
Speaker 1: have that do not have a car culture that like

2734
02:39:08,760 --> 02:39:10,959
Speaker 1: stopped that and that actually like had one at one

2735
02:39:10,959 --> 02:39:14,360
Speaker 1: point and then reworked there. So that's that's and that

2736
02:39:14,440 --> 02:39:17,200
Speaker 1: would Yeah, that is a significant that's probably go that

2737
02:39:17,240 --> 02:39:20,800
Speaker 1: would probably lead to larger emissions reductions than any kind

2738
02:39:20,800 --> 02:39:24,560
Speaker 1: of carbon credit system could ever lead to. UM. I

2739
02:39:24,600 --> 02:39:28,160
Speaker 1: also and so yeah, I think that that's on an

2740
02:39:28,160 --> 02:39:30,920
Speaker 1: objective level, Yeah, that's it's smart to focus on stuff

2741
02:39:30,920 --> 02:39:35,320
Speaker 1: like that where you're all you are arguing for reducing growth,

2742
02:39:35,959 --> 02:39:38,440
Speaker 1: but you're also arguing and for like, hey, your life

2743
02:39:38,480 --> 02:39:40,440
Speaker 1: will be more pleasant if you live in a city

2744
02:39:40,480 --> 02:39:43,200
Speaker 1: where you can walk everywhere and you're not at risk

2745
02:39:43,240 --> 02:39:46,160
Speaker 1: of getting run down by you know, two ton trucks

2746
02:39:46,200 --> 02:39:49,039
Speaker 1: anytime you crossed the street and like you're not dealing

2747
02:39:49,040 --> 02:39:52,000
Speaker 1: with smog and pollution and horrible like hour and a

2748
02:39:52,040 --> 02:39:56,440
Speaker 1: half long communes on these crowded nightmare highways. Um. But

2749
02:39:56,520 --> 02:40:01,920
Speaker 1: it's also it's still incrementalists, you know, we we are

2750
02:40:02,040 --> 02:40:04,440
Speaker 1: we are talking here, we are kind of like walking

2751
02:40:04,480 --> 02:40:09,240
Speaker 1: through here, Um, all of the best incremental solutions and

2752
02:40:09,240 --> 02:40:11,760
Speaker 1: and what is the most realistic of those? Um. And

2753
02:40:11,920 --> 02:40:13,640
Speaker 1: I think that's fine. I think that's kind of where

2754
02:40:13,680 --> 02:40:17,000
Speaker 1: we have to be because that is what's most likely

2755
02:40:17,080 --> 02:40:19,960
Speaker 1: to actually happen to make the problem better. Um. But

2756
02:40:20,000 --> 02:40:22,440
Speaker 1: it is we have to acknowledge it is incremental. Like

2757
02:40:22,480 --> 02:40:27,440
Speaker 1: we're not We're not solving It would be very arrogant

2758
02:40:27,440 --> 02:40:29,840
Speaker 1: to say, like here's how we solve this problem once

2759
02:40:29,840 --> 02:40:31,560
Speaker 1: and for all, you know, I just want to I

2760
02:40:31,560 --> 02:40:33,840
Speaker 1: think sometimes when you talk about stuff like deep growth,

2761
02:40:33,879 --> 02:40:36,280
Speaker 1: you can get into this, you can kind of it

2762
02:40:36,320 --> 02:40:38,480
Speaker 1: can come across as if you're trying to like simplify,

2763
02:40:38,560 --> 02:40:40,160
Speaker 1: like and if we do this, like it will be

2764
02:40:40,240 --> 02:40:42,480
Speaker 1: perfectly Like now, this would be like the hardest thing.

2765
02:40:42,800 --> 02:40:45,959
Speaker 1: That's like saying we have to confix it by all

2766
02:40:46,160 --> 02:40:50,840
Speaker 1: doing a revolution. It's like it's it's not okay, okay, cool. Yeah,

2767
02:40:50,879 --> 02:40:54,720
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, but anyway, we have to do some

2768
02:40:54,760 --> 02:40:56,720
Speaker 1: ads and then we'll be back to finish up kind

2769
02:40:56,720 --> 02:40:59,400
Speaker 1: of their closing expectations on top twenty six and the

2770
02:40:59,440 --> 02:41:04,480
Speaker 1: other kind of things happening in the periphery. Um here's ads. Okay,

2771
02:41:04,600 --> 02:41:06,920
Speaker 1: we are back, and we're talking about kind of what

2772
02:41:07,000 --> 02:41:09,800
Speaker 1: happened towards the end of twenty So we already kind

2773
02:41:09,800 --> 02:41:11,880
Speaker 1: of discussed how the deal was made, what was in

2774
02:41:11,920 --> 02:41:14,920
Speaker 1: the deal, what things were talked about. Um, now we're

2775
02:41:14,959 --> 02:41:16,760
Speaker 1: kind of going to talk about, you know, the other

2776
02:41:16,840 --> 02:41:21,280
Speaker 1: kind of closing thoughts around it. Um in in In

2777
02:41:21,280 --> 02:41:23,920
Speaker 1: in the lead up to to to play six, the

2778
02:41:24,000 --> 02:41:28,920
Speaker 1: United States Special Presidential Climate Envoy John Kerry, who's like

2779
02:41:29,120 --> 02:41:31,520
Speaker 1: he's supposed to be like our climate guy. Um he

2780
02:41:31,520 --> 02:41:33,320
Speaker 1: he also said the goal of this something it was

2781
02:41:33,400 --> 02:41:35,600
Speaker 1: to it was to you know, hope that we can

2782
02:41:35,680 --> 02:41:38,400
Speaker 1: limit stuff to one point five degrees. And you know,

2783
02:41:38,480 --> 02:41:40,560
Speaker 1: he he called this the last best hope for the

2784
02:41:40,600 --> 02:41:43,400
Speaker 1: world to get its act together. But by the time

2785
02:41:43,680 --> 02:41:46,640
Speaker 1: Copter six came to the end, his language and attitude

2786
02:41:46,800 --> 02:41:49,400
Speaker 1: had kind of changed. Um After after two weeks of

2787
02:41:49,400 --> 02:41:53,320
Speaker 1: debate and negotiation, his his final remarks reflected the kind

2788
02:41:53,360 --> 02:41:56,680
Speaker 1: of the points we've been talking about how um and

2789
02:41:56,680 --> 02:42:00,160
Speaker 1: and and said like like the government energy policies curly

2790
02:42:00,200 --> 02:42:03,400
Speaker 1: in place around the world are projected to result in

2791
02:42:03,440 --> 02:42:07,520
Speaker 1: about two point seven degrees h celsius of warming above

2792
02:42:07,600 --> 02:42:11,480
Speaker 1: pre industrial levels, and government pledges to cut climate emissions

2793
02:42:11,520 --> 02:42:14,520
Speaker 1: would limit warming to two point four uh if they

2794
02:42:14,520 --> 02:42:18,320
Speaker 1: are met. So that's the the Again, we're just launching

2795
02:42:18,400 --> 02:42:21,720
Speaker 1: way past this like mythical fantasy of of one point

2796
02:42:21,760 --> 02:42:25,440
Speaker 1: five degrees. And the other scary things is that we're

2797
02:42:25,440 --> 02:42:29,600
Speaker 1: getting a lot a lot closer to large scale feedback loops. UH.

2798
02:42:29,720 --> 02:42:32,039
Speaker 1: Feedback loops are things like once we have reached a

2799
02:42:32,040 --> 02:42:35,520
Speaker 1: certain degree of warming, environmental effects will be triggered that

2800
02:42:35,560 --> 02:42:39,840
Speaker 1: will cascade and produce like exponential growth in warming. This

2801
02:42:39,920 --> 02:42:43,360
Speaker 1: is like a this it's not purely theoretical, but it

2802
02:42:43,480 --> 02:42:46,280
Speaker 1: is mostly stuff that we still probably can prevent, and

2803
02:42:46,320 --> 02:42:48,520
Speaker 1: we really need to get on it like a sap,

2804
02:42:48,720 --> 02:42:51,160
Speaker 1: because once these things start happening, they are very hard

2805
02:42:51,160 --> 02:42:53,720
Speaker 1: to reverse. One of the biggest ones that are that

2806
02:42:53,760 --> 02:42:57,160
Speaker 1: are already being affected is photosynthesis by plants on land,

2807
02:42:57,600 --> 02:43:00,720
Speaker 1: and how that is decreasing its ability to suck up

2808
02:43:00,720 --> 02:43:05,680
Speaker 1: carbon um about of our annual carbon emissions are removed

2809
02:43:06,160 --> 02:43:09,400
Speaker 1: by the air by photosynthesis um and the rest of

2810
02:43:09,400 --> 02:43:13,360
Speaker 1: which are dissolved in the ocean, causing ocean acidification or

2811
02:43:13,440 --> 02:43:15,560
Speaker 1: that you just hang around in the atmosphere, which causes

2812
02:43:15,640 --> 02:43:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, a bigger thermal blanket. So uh, photosynthesis has

2813
02:43:20,360 --> 02:43:22,959
Speaker 1: like a thermal maximum beyond which carbon can only be

2814
02:43:23,040 --> 02:43:26,840
Speaker 1: taken so much of it in and then the process

2815
02:43:26,879 --> 02:43:30,320
Speaker 1: which by plants give off carbon and water actually increases.

2816
02:43:30,840 --> 02:43:33,680
Speaker 1: And we are already at that point in a in

2817
02:43:33,720 --> 02:43:36,440
Speaker 1: a lot of places, and we are we are at

2818
02:43:36,480 --> 02:43:39,000
Speaker 1: that we we achieve the warming required to get to

2819
02:43:39,040 --> 02:43:42,560
Speaker 1: that point a few times throughout the past decade. So

2820
02:43:42,959 --> 02:43:45,720
Speaker 1: land based carbon uptake is projected to decline by nearly

2821
02:43:45,760 --> 02:43:49,959
Speaker 1: fift pcent as early as and and these effects have

2822
02:43:50,040 --> 02:43:52,680
Speaker 1: not been included in any of the you know published

2823
02:43:52,720 --> 02:43:57,520
Speaker 1: pathways leading to lower like lower degrees of warming um.

2824
02:43:57,560 --> 02:43:59,959
Speaker 1: And again this isn't this isn't just a speculative. Like

2825
02:44:00,280 --> 02:44:02,480
Speaker 1: the biggest example of this that we can like point

2826
02:44:02,560 --> 02:44:05,000
Speaker 1: to is like the Amazon rainforest. How that is now

2827
02:44:05,120 --> 02:44:08,560
Speaker 1: a net emitter because it is no longer sucking up

2828
02:44:08,680 --> 02:44:11,400
Speaker 1: enough carbon to offset the amount of carbon and actually

2829
02:44:11,440 --> 02:44:15,560
Speaker 1: shoots out, So we need to stop deforestation and keep

2830
02:44:15,600 --> 02:44:19,920
Speaker 1: planting more trees essentially because that that sucks. And also

2831
02:44:20,000 --> 02:44:22,680
Speaker 1: just as a general kind of indicator of the cascading

2832
02:44:22,680 --> 02:44:26,160
Speaker 1: effects that are happening and we are we're still on

2833
02:44:26,200 --> 02:44:28,440
Speaker 1: the path for kind of large, large scale disasters in

2834
02:44:28,480 --> 02:44:32,440
Speaker 1: a lot of places around the world. UM, the it's

2835
02:44:32,879 --> 02:44:37,400
Speaker 1: around nineteen of the Earth's land area is in pretty

2836
02:44:37,440 --> 02:44:41,240
Speaker 1: pretty dire risk on our current emission pathway of the

2837
02:44:41,240 --> 02:44:45,640
Speaker 1: Marshall Islands and all dol VI's UM, Vietnam, Southeast Asia,

2838
02:44:45,680 --> 02:44:50,080
Speaker 1: Middle East, parts of North Africa, and Central America. UM. Overall,

2839
02:44:50,120 --> 02:44:53,439
Speaker 1: around one third of the land humans occupied are predicted

2840
02:44:53,520 --> 02:44:56,600
Speaker 1: to either drowned by spicea level rise or became or

2841
02:44:56,640 --> 02:44:58,440
Speaker 1: become too hot for human life just by the end

2842
02:44:58,440 --> 02:45:01,280
Speaker 1: of this century alone. So that that will cause you know,

2843
02:45:01,560 --> 02:45:04,680
Speaker 1: my migration, panics and wars and all, like a whole

2844
02:45:04,720 --> 02:45:07,320
Speaker 1: bunch of bad things that we can't we can limit that,

2845
02:45:07,360 --> 02:45:10,119
Speaker 1: like that is something that we need to limit now,

2846
02:45:10,560 --> 02:45:12,840
Speaker 1: and if we don't, it's still it's still happening. So

2847
02:45:13,120 --> 02:45:15,360
Speaker 1: these are the other kind of things talked about at

2848
02:45:15,400 --> 02:45:19,720
Speaker 1: the end UM. So that was kind of copy as

2849
02:45:19,720 --> 02:45:22,440
Speaker 1: a whole um The one last thing I want to

2850
02:45:22,480 --> 02:45:27,000
Speaker 1: mention is just how evil Facebook is. Um so kind

2851
02:45:27,040 --> 02:45:31,480
Speaker 1: of kind of an aside, but um, Facebook vice president

2852
02:45:31,480 --> 02:45:38,000
Speaker 1: of Global Affairs UH talked um and about Facebook's efforts

2853
02:45:38,000 --> 02:45:42,119
Speaker 1: to combat climate misinformation. UM as the Glasgow somewhat began.

2854
02:45:42,600 --> 02:45:45,560
Speaker 1: But as this was happening, conservative media, let's like news

2855
02:45:45,560 --> 02:45:48,640
Speaker 1: Max or we're running ads on Facebook calling a glob

2856
02:45:48,680 --> 02:45:52,000
Speaker 1: global warming a hoax, gaining hundreds of thousands of views,

2857
02:45:52,280 --> 02:45:54,400
Speaker 1: stuff like you know Canadas so once and Daily Wire

2858
02:45:54,520 --> 02:45:57,920
Speaker 1: we're spreading climate misinformation. But and you know, as as

2859
02:45:57,959 --> 02:46:01,640
Speaker 1: Facebook is bragging about its ability to to combat misinformation

2860
02:46:01,640 --> 02:46:05,920
Speaker 1: around climate change. UM. The UK based think tank Influence Map,

2861
02:46:06,080 --> 02:46:10,119
Speaker 1: which identified misleading Facebook ads UH from several media outlets

2862
02:46:10,320 --> 02:46:15,000
Speaker 1: UM around Copy also found that fossil field companies and

2863
02:46:15,200 --> 02:46:18,680
Speaker 1: lobbying groups spent half a million dollars on political and

2864
02:46:18,720 --> 02:46:22,959
Speaker 1: social issue Facebook ads during the summit, resulting in over

2865
02:46:23,080 --> 02:46:28,400
Speaker 1: two million impressions, including content that promoted environmental effects under

2866
02:46:28,480 --> 02:46:31,720
Speaker 1: what we would call like green washing, stuff like you know,

2867
02:46:32,000 --> 02:46:35,680
Speaker 1: the American Petroleum Institute putting up putting an ad out

2868
02:46:35,800 --> 02:46:38,480
Speaker 1: over like a natural landscape as it like touts its

2869
02:46:38,480 --> 02:46:41,960
Speaker 1: efforts to tackle climate change. Um, so all all of

2870
02:46:42,040 --> 02:46:44,560
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So I just think it's really

2871
02:46:44,640 --> 02:46:48,119
Speaker 1: dumb because Facebook breaks about its ability to combat climate

2872
02:46:48,160 --> 02:46:52,600
Speaker 1: misinformation as its running ads saying climate changes the hoax

2873
02:46:52,720 --> 02:46:56,600
Speaker 1: and then doing generally green green washing is more common.

2874
02:46:56,800 --> 02:47:01,000
Speaker 1: But still it's frustrating. Um isn't like we talked about

2875
02:47:01,000 --> 02:47:02,600
Speaker 1: this in the Facebook it as it's a bastards that

2876
02:47:02,680 --> 02:47:05,640
Speaker 1: dropped recently. But like the number one spreader right now

2877
02:47:05,640 --> 02:47:08,760
Speaker 1: of climate disinformation on Facebook is bright Bart, which a

2878
02:47:08,800 --> 02:47:10,680
Speaker 1: lot of the Facebook papers have gone on too like

2879
02:47:10,760 --> 02:47:14,880
Speaker 1: the extreme lengths, Facebook executives went to keep bright Bart

2880
02:47:14,920 --> 02:47:17,480
Speaker 1: as one of their like trusted news partners and continue

2881
02:47:17,520 --> 02:47:19,600
Speaker 1: putting their stuff out to a huge audience because it

2882
02:47:19,640 --> 02:47:22,879
Speaker 1: goes very viral. It was good for engagement on the platform,

2883
02:47:22,920 --> 02:47:25,920
Speaker 1: and that's the decision. Facebook's like whatever they say, this

2884
02:47:26,040 --> 02:47:28,520
Speaker 1: is like when we when we're talking about car carbon credits,

2885
02:47:28,520 --> 02:47:31,840
Speaker 1: when we're talking about like the different proposed solutions. I'll

2886
02:47:31,840 --> 02:47:33,480
Speaker 1: do a bit of waffling because I don't want to

2887
02:47:33,480 --> 02:47:36,240
Speaker 1: come across as too certain about what the right way

2888
02:47:36,280 --> 02:47:38,720
Speaker 1: to go forward is. When it comes to how Facebook

2889
02:47:38,760 --> 02:47:42,560
Speaker 1: has handled climate disinformation, it's very black and white. Um,

2890
02:47:42,600 --> 02:47:45,640
Speaker 1: they enabled it for direct profit, and they talked about

2891
02:47:45,680 --> 02:47:48,120
Speaker 1: it and people within the company were like, Hey, we're

2892
02:47:48,120 --> 02:47:52,840
Speaker 1: deliberately enabling climate change misinformation in order to make more money. Um,

2893
02:47:52,840 --> 02:47:56,360
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a very easy case to make. Yeah.

2894
02:47:56,400 --> 02:47:59,680
Speaker 1: So that wraps up my uh my report back on

2895
02:48:00,240 --> 02:48:02,520
Speaker 1: twenty six I know a lot of a lot of stuff.

2896
02:48:02,640 --> 02:48:04,800
Speaker 1: Was like, there's there's a lot of headlines like before

2897
02:48:04,879 --> 02:48:07,200
Speaker 1: the somebody even ended, before the deal was even finalized.

2898
02:48:07,240 --> 02:48:10,480
Speaker 1: I was like, is a failure, which is like yes,

2899
02:48:10,680 --> 02:48:13,280
Speaker 1: But I think I think it is worth actually really

2900
02:48:13,400 --> 02:48:15,760
Speaker 1: learning what happens at these things, because I think we

2901
02:48:15,800 --> 02:48:18,600
Speaker 1: have this idea that they're like some like mythic secret

2902
02:48:18,680 --> 02:48:21,360
Speaker 1: gathering of people to discuss plans, and it's like no,

2903
02:48:21,480 --> 02:48:24,240
Speaker 1: like you can actually like see everything they're talking about,

2904
02:48:24,280 --> 02:48:25,840
Speaker 1: Like it's it's all out in the open, Like you

2905
02:48:25,840 --> 02:48:28,560
Speaker 1: can actually see what what the plans are. It doesn't

2906
02:48:28,560 --> 02:48:31,240
Speaker 1: need to be all shrouded in it. It doesn't need

2907
02:48:31,280 --> 02:48:34,400
Speaker 1: be like shrouded in mystery. So I just wanted to

2908
02:48:34,400 --> 02:48:36,840
Speaker 1: give people like a rundown on what the actual people

2909
02:48:36,840 --> 02:48:39,200
Speaker 1: in power, how they're discussing climate change, and what their

2910
02:48:39,200 --> 02:48:42,640
Speaker 1: expectations are and how you know, expectations have you know,

2911
02:48:42,720 --> 02:48:45,840
Speaker 1: the past five years have risen by basically a degree, right,

2912
02:48:45,879 --> 02:48:48,960
Speaker 1: because like we're like we can do one point five,

2913
02:48:49,400 --> 02:48:51,880
Speaker 1: and now we're like we can do two point five.

2914
02:48:52,480 --> 02:48:54,640
Speaker 1: So that is what we've done in five years. That's

2915
02:48:54,680 --> 02:48:58,680
Speaker 1: what's happened. And um that's what justifies the kind of

2916
02:49:00,040 --> 02:49:03,199
Speaker 1: blanket pessimism about anything coming from Cop twenty six, about

2917
02:49:03,240 --> 02:49:07,279
Speaker 1: anything being suggested by like a state actor and international organization,

2918
02:49:07,400 --> 02:49:10,320
Speaker 1: which is that like we've all watched the last twenty years,

2919
02:49:10,959 --> 02:49:13,080
Speaker 1: like they've said a lot of great stuff about what

2920
02:49:13,120 --> 02:49:16,360
Speaker 1: could work. It's like that Nature article about like Okay, well,

2921
02:49:16,400 --> 02:49:18,400
Speaker 1: like you've got a bunch of math here arguing about

2922
02:49:18,440 --> 02:49:20,720
Speaker 1: how it might work. But we've got the last twenty

2923
02:49:20,840 --> 02:49:24,000
Speaker 1: years of policies to sneve. But it probably won't right,

2924
02:49:24,160 --> 02:49:26,360
Speaker 1: but it's almost certainly not going to work, right, so

2925
02:49:26,400 --> 02:49:30,400
Speaker 1: we we can say, like, yeah, theoretically this might be helpful,

2926
02:49:30,480 --> 02:49:34,080
Speaker 1: but like, realistically nothing, everything you guys have argued about

2927
02:49:34,120 --> 02:49:38,080
Speaker 1: in the same way has been a miserable failure. Pretty much. Well,

2928
02:49:38,440 --> 02:49:41,160
Speaker 1: that that wraps it up for us. Uh. You can

2929
02:49:41,200 --> 02:49:44,760
Speaker 1: follow the show on Twitter and apparently Instagram. Um At

2930
02:49:44,760 --> 02:49:48,480
Speaker 1: happen here pod and Coolson Media. We got a new

2931
02:49:48,480 --> 02:49:53,280
Speaker 1: Coolson Media show dropping soon. Uh megacorp. That's pretty exciting. Yeah,

2932
02:49:53,440 --> 02:49:56,080
Speaker 1: check it out. It's about how we love Amazon and

2933
02:49:56,120 --> 02:49:58,959
Speaker 1: you should pay the money. I don't think that's what

2934
02:49:58,959 --> 02:50:03,000
Speaker 1: it's about, but any um. Yeah, so buy some carbon

2935
02:50:03,040 --> 02:50:07,720
Speaker 1: offsets from Amazon and with that. With that, we're closing

2936
02:50:07,800 --> 02:50:17,240
Speaker 1: the show. Give us ever attention. We need everything you've

2937
02:50:17,240 --> 02:50:20,879
Speaker 1: got Fast Waiting on Reparations. We beat the podcast two

2938
02:50:21,000 --> 02:50:24,120
Speaker 1: in every Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for the

2939
02:50:24,160 --> 02:50:26,440
Speaker 1: people because they got us in the worst way. From

2940
02:50:26,440 --> 02:50:29,320
Speaker 1: the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay to Kanya, from the

2941
02:50:29,440 --> 02:50:32,600
Speaker 1: left on Clay to what the neo kansee every Thursday

2942
02:50:33,000 --> 02:50:35,160
Speaker 1: the heavy conversation and to break us off with some

2943
02:50:35,240 --> 02:50:39,120
Speaker 1: break because we're waiting the repas. Listen to Waiting on

2944
02:50:39,200 --> 02:50:42,360
Speaker 1: Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or

2945
02:50:42,400 --> 02:50:46,879
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. The art world it is

2946
02:50:47,000 --> 02:50:51,119
Speaker 1: essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes are still

2947
02:50:51,200 --> 02:50:54,119
Speaker 1: hanging on people's walls. You know they don't even know

2948
02:50:54,480 --> 02:50:57,560
Speaker 1: or suspect that their faces. I'm out like Baldwin and

2949
02:50:57,640 --> 02:51:01,120
Speaker 1: this is a podcast about the set option, greed and

2950
02:51:01,240 --> 02:51:08,160
Speaker 1: forgery in the art world. You knew the painting was fake. UM.

2951
02:51:08,400 --> 02:51:12,080
Speaker 1: Listen to Art Fraud starting February one on the I

2952
02:51:12,240 --> 02:51:17,040
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

2953
02:51:30,520 --> 02:51:33,320
Speaker 1: Welcome back to it could happen here. A show about

2954
02:51:33,440 --> 02:51:35,680
Speaker 1: how things are following up art at least generally, a

2955
02:51:35,720 --> 02:51:38,480
Speaker 1: show about how things are falling apart, um and how

2956
02:51:38,520 --> 02:51:41,040
Speaker 1: to you know, maybe maybe not falling apart that much.

2957
02:51:41,080 --> 02:51:42,680
Speaker 1: But we have a we have a little bit of

2958
02:51:42,720 --> 02:51:45,680
Speaker 1: a different episode for you today. A friend of a

2959
02:51:45,720 --> 02:51:47,640
Speaker 1: friend of mine reached out to me recently in the

2960
02:51:47,680 --> 02:51:49,520
Speaker 1: wake of a pair of episodes we did From Behind

2961
02:51:49,560 --> 02:51:52,800
Speaker 1: the Bastards on sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts of America,

2962
02:51:52,879 --> 02:51:55,480
Speaker 1: which was, if you're not aware, and endemic problem, with

2963
02:51:56,240 --> 02:51:58,600
Speaker 1: more than a hundred thousand victims having come forward in

2964
02:51:58,600 --> 02:52:01,360
Speaker 1: the last year alone. UM. And this is a case

2965
02:52:01,400 --> 02:52:03,840
Speaker 1: that kind of ties into that. Uh. It's it's the

2966
02:52:03,879 --> 02:52:07,800
Speaker 1: case of a young man, UM who committed murder and

2967
02:52:07,840 --> 02:52:10,920
Speaker 1: a young man who was also UM a victim of

2968
02:52:11,520 --> 02:52:13,520
Speaker 1: a terrible series of crime. So I wanted to kind

2969
02:52:13,520 --> 02:52:15,600
Speaker 1: of shine a little bit of light on the case

2970
02:52:15,640 --> 02:52:18,520
Speaker 1: of Heath Stocks today. UM. And to help me do

2971
02:52:18,560 --> 02:52:21,200
Speaker 1: that is Mr Michael Kaiser. Michael, welcome to the show,

2972
02:52:22,160 --> 02:52:25,400
Speaker 1: Good afternoon, Thanks for having me. Michael. Would you like

2973
02:52:25,440 --> 02:52:28,160
Speaker 1: to introduce kind of your affiliation with this case before

2974
02:52:28,200 --> 02:52:31,879
Speaker 1: we go over the broad strokes of it? Sure? Um, again,

2975
02:52:31,959 --> 02:52:34,600
Speaker 1: my name is Michael Kaiser. I'm a criminal defense attorney

2976
02:52:34,600 --> 02:52:38,800
Speaker 1: with the Lastter and Cassinelli firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. Um.

2977
02:52:38,840 --> 02:52:43,280
Speaker 1: This case started in the nineties and I was I'm

2978
02:52:43,320 --> 02:52:45,760
Speaker 1: thirty two, so I was not practicing. Then I came

2979
02:52:45,840 --> 02:52:49,920
Speaker 1: into this case in the last two years after Heath

2980
02:52:50,000 --> 02:52:54,120
Speaker 1: has already I've been sentenced to three life sentences, and

2981
02:52:54,360 --> 02:52:58,359
Speaker 1: I assisted him in filing a petition for a commutation

2982
02:52:58,480 --> 02:53:01,880
Speaker 1: asking for the Governor of Arkansas to reduce those sentences

2983
02:53:01,920 --> 02:53:03,879
Speaker 1: to a term of years and giving him a chance

2984
02:53:03,920 --> 02:53:06,960
Speaker 1: of parole while he is still alive. And and can

2985
02:53:07,000 --> 02:53:09,680
Speaker 1: we uh, let's go over kind of what happened in

2986
02:53:09,720 --> 02:53:12,640
Speaker 1: this case the basics, because this is this is a

2987
02:53:12,760 --> 02:53:16,199
Speaker 1: really sad story, um, and it's one of those things

2988
02:53:16,280 --> 02:53:20,320
Speaker 1: where there's there's not a lot of I think, easy answers.

2989
02:53:20,360 --> 02:53:22,199
Speaker 1: But yeah, let's let's talk about sort of the broad

2990
02:53:22,200 --> 02:53:24,200
Speaker 1: strokes of what happened, and then we can drill into

2991
02:53:24,440 --> 02:53:27,680
Speaker 1: what what you're trying to achieve here. Sure, so the

2992
02:53:27,720 --> 02:53:33,160
Speaker 1: broad strokes are back in UM. When Heath was a

2993
02:53:33,200 --> 02:53:38,680
Speaker 1: young man UM just twenty years old, UM, he was

2994
02:53:38,800 --> 02:53:43,240
Speaker 1: arrested and charged with killing his entire immediate family, both

2995
02:53:43,280 --> 02:53:47,600
Speaker 1: his mother, father, UM, and his younger sister. He was

2996
02:53:48,320 --> 02:53:54,160
Speaker 1: quickly identified as the primary suspect, questioned, confessed, arrested, charged,

2997
02:53:54,280 --> 02:53:57,760
Speaker 1: and within I believe six months, had pleaded guilty to

2998
02:53:57,879 --> 02:54:01,040
Speaker 1: all three capital murders and receive a sentence of life

2999
02:54:01,959 --> 02:54:04,840
Speaker 1: without parole for each each one of those, for a

3000
02:54:04,840 --> 02:54:10,400
Speaker 1: total of three life sentences. UM. Shortly after he was convicted, UM,

3001
02:54:10,400 --> 02:54:13,400
Speaker 1: it came to light that his longtime boy scout scout

3002
02:54:13,440 --> 02:54:18,640
Speaker 1: Master Jack Walls had been molesting Heats since he was

3003
02:54:18,720 --> 02:54:22,440
Speaker 1: around age nine or ten. UM that it was a

3004
02:54:22,560 --> 02:54:25,560
Speaker 1: serial sort of abuse, that Heat, that Heath was not

3005
02:54:25,680 --> 02:54:29,400
Speaker 1: the only one. UM, that it was particularly brutal, and

3006
02:54:29,440 --> 02:54:35,680
Speaker 1: that his abuse didn't just involve you know, sexual acts. UM.

3007
02:54:35,920 --> 02:54:38,400
Speaker 1: It was kind of a long term. I hate to

3008
02:54:38,440 --> 02:54:40,520
Speaker 1: use the term brainwashing, but a lot of people have

3009
02:54:40,879 --> 02:54:44,080
Speaker 1: about what he did to those boys. UM. Heats is

3010
02:54:44,080 --> 02:54:47,160
Speaker 1: not the only life that was ruined. Heath's family is

3011
02:54:47,200 --> 02:54:50,200
Speaker 1: not the only families lives who were ruined. UM. But

3012
02:54:50,320 --> 02:54:54,720
Speaker 1: Heats is unfortunately the most extreme case, UM, where where

3013
02:54:54,760 --> 02:54:58,160
Speaker 1: he he ultimately committed a crime against against his family.

3014
02:54:58,640 --> 02:55:01,120
Speaker 1: We'll get into the cumstances in a second. I just

3015
02:55:01,120 --> 02:55:02,760
Speaker 1: want to add a little bit of clarification that the

3016
02:55:02,840 --> 02:55:05,480
Speaker 1: scout master, we're looking at between a hundred and a

3017
02:55:05,520 --> 02:55:08,480
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty victims kind of conservatively based on what

3018
02:55:08,520 --> 02:55:11,959
Speaker 1: I've been reading. Yes, yeah, and it's it's some of

3019
02:55:12,320 --> 02:55:15,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so this guy. Some of it's the

3020
02:55:15,120 --> 02:55:16,880
Speaker 1: stuff that you heard in a lot of these other cases.

3021
02:55:16,920 --> 02:55:18,640
Speaker 1: Some of it is is very unique to this guy.

3022
02:55:18,680 --> 02:55:22,080
Speaker 1: But he would basically he would have people over, kids

3023
02:55:22,160 --> 02:55:25,160
Speaker 1: over camping on his land. UM, he would take them shooting,

3024
02:55:25,200 --> 02:55:28,680
Speaker 1: he worked for an ammunition company. UM, he would molest them.

3025
02:55:28,680 --> 02:55:31,920
Speaker 1: He would also like purchase prostitutes for them. And it

3026
02:55:32,080 --> 02:55:35,039
Speaker 1: was this, UM, I mean a lot of of really

3027
02:55:35,840 --> 02:55:37,959
Speaker 1: some of the worst abuse that I've read about in

3028
02:55:38,040 --> 02:55:42,000
Speaker 1: connection to any of these these boy scouts sexual abuse cases. UM.

3029
02:55:42,040 --> 02:55:44,760
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty harrowing stuff when you read the stories

3030
02:55:44,800 --> 02:55:47,600
Speaker 1: of other kids, um, who were kind of in the

3031
02:55:47,640 --> 02:55:52,640
Speaker 1: same position that Heath was. Yeah, Unfortunately you're You're correct.

3032
02:55:52,720 --> 02:55:55,360
Speaker 1: It's you know, every time you think this can't get worse,

3033
02:55:55,480 --> 02:55:58,160
Speaker 1: or this case is so extreme that you find some

3034
02:55:58,200 --> 02:56:03,000
Speaker 1: other element that's more offensive, are appalling more victims, more,

3035
02:56:03,000 --> 02:56:07,000
Speaker 1: more families ruined down the line, even um today thirty

3036
02:56:07,080 --> 02:56:12,640
Speaker 1: forty years fifty years later, M. Yeah, so how does

3037
02:56:12,720 --> 02:56:15,240
Speaker 1: the because I mean, one of the things about this

3038
02:56:15,360 --> 02:56:18,960
Speaker 1: is this is a pretty the initial crime here is

3039
02:56:19,000 --> 02:56:22,400
Speaker 1: pretty horrific. Um. And I think it's it's one of

3040
02:56:22,440 --> 02:56:24,879
Speaker 1: those things where it is hard to have a lot

3041
02:56:24,920 --> 02:56:27,680
Speaker 1: of sympathy for Heath until you kind of learn about

3042
02:56:28,520 --> 02:56:32,400
Speaker 1: what this guy like, his his his role in the crime,

3043
02:56:32,400 --> 02:56:35,400
Speaker 1: because it was not just a case of, um, you know,

3044
02:56:35,400 --> 02:56:37,760
Speaker 1: a kid committing murder. It was a case of a

3045
02:56:37,840 --> 02:56:43,000
Speaker 1: kid being um, very deliberately pushed into committing murder. And

3046
02:56:43,280 --> 02:56:46,760
Speaker 1: potentially I think that there's the allegations being made her

3047
02:56:46,800 --> 02:56:52,280
Speaker 1: that he was he directly helped with it as well. Yes, um,

3048
02:56:52,360 --> 02:56:55,280
Speaker 1: so you know, at first glance, yeah, it looks it

3049
02:56:55,280 --> 02:56:58,520
Speaker 1: looks really bad for Heath, um. But over the years, um,

3050
02:56:58,600 --> 02:57:01,560
Speaker 1: what we have learned is that what what really happened

3051
02:57:02,120 --> 02:57:05,720
Speaker 1: is that Heath had been serially abused sexually, physically, emotionally,

3052
02:57:05,720 --> 02:57:08,520
Speaker 1: and otherwise by Jack for a period of ten plus years.

3053
02:57:09,840 --> 02:57:14,360
Speaker 1: His mother discovers the abuse and discusses it with her,

3054
02:57:14,440 --> 02:57:20,240
Speaker 1: her pastor another religious counselor UH. Heath informs Jack that

3055
02:57:20,480 --> 02:57:23,920
Speaker 1: you know his mother is aware, and and Jack instructs

3056
02:57:23,959 --> 02:57:27,440
Speaker 1: Heath to do as he's been taught, UM and and

3057
02:57:27,520 --> 02:57:32,800
Speaker 1: to kill the problem. UM. Jack was never convicted with

3058
02:57:32,840 --> 02:57:37,680
Speaker 1: anything associated with the death of of the Stocks family. UM. However,

3059
02:57:38,200 --> 02:57:42,200
Speaker 1: his first set of life sentences for the many assaults

3060
02:57:42,200 --> 02:57:45,200
Speaker 1: that he was convicted of, UM, when they were reversed,

3061
02:57:45,240 --> 02:57:47,520
Speaker 1: it was because the judge in that in that sentencing

3062
02:57:47,560 --> 02:57:49,720
Speaker 1: hearing said, you know that the death of the Stocks

3063
02:57:49,720 --> 02:57:52,400
Speaker 1: family is also on your hands. And because he hadn't

3064
02:57:52,440 --> 02:57:55,119
Speaker 1: been formally convicted of that, he actually had his original

3065
02:57:55,160 --> 02:57:59,400
Speaker 1: life sentences reversed. Every sentencing he got essentially the same sentence,

3066
02:57:59,560 --> 02:58:03,200
Speaker 1: multiple life sentences in additional years. UM. But yes, there

3067
02:58:03,280 --> 02:58:07,480
Speaker 1: there's there is a connection. UM. It wasn't known at

3068
02:58:07,480 --> 02:58:10,560
Speaker 1: the time, or at least it wasn't publicized, and if

3069
02:58:10,600 --> 02:58:12,600
Speaker 1: if it had been, I think the results of his

3070
02:58:12,800 --> 02:58:14,560
Speaker 1: case would be very different. I don't think you and

3071
02:58:14,600 --> 02:58:17,560
Speaker 1: I would be speaking right now. Yeah. And it's I mean,

3072
02:58:17,600 --> 02:58:21,400
Speaker 1: obviously like this is this is this is a thoroughly

3073
02:58:21,760 --> 02:58:26,879
Speaker 1: horrible situation. Um. And when somebody commits three murders, I

3074
02:58:26,879 --> 02:58:29,360
Speaker 1: think even people who are very critical of the criminal

3075
02:58:29,440 --> 02:58:32,320
Speaker 1: justice system should agree that, like, something needs to be done.

3076
02:58:32,959 --> 02:58:37,320
Speaker 1: But I it just seems so unfair to lock this

3077
02:58:37,440 --> 02:58:40,600
Speaker 1: kit up for his entire life without kind of and

3078
02:58:40,600 --> 02:58:43,960
Speaker 1: and and acting as if this was just a thing

3079
02:58:44,560 --> 02:58:46,560
Speaker 1: he did on his own, rather than kind of the

3080
02:58:46,600 --> 02:58:50,440
Speaker 1: result of a pretty horrific I mean, one of the

3081
02:58:50,480 --> 02:58:53,800
Speaker 1: most one of the most horrific patterns of abuse and

3082
02:58:53,840 --> 02:58:57,879
Speaker 1: exploitation of a of a child that I can imagine. UM.

3083
02:58:57,920 --> 02:59:01,119
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I don't know what would actually

3084
02:59:01,160 --> 02:59:05,680
Speaker 1: like help other than getting him into a situation where

3085
02:59:05,680 --> 02:59:07,640
Speaker 1: he's not spending the rest of his life in a

3086
02:59:07,680 --> 02:59:09,720
Speaker 1: prison cell. Like I don't know what the long term

3087
02:59:09,800 --> 02:59:14,080
Speaker 1: for him looks like in terms of rebuilding this guy's

3088
02:59:14,120 --> 02:59:16,959
Speaker 1: potential to have a life, but it certainly starts with

3089
02:59:17,520 --> 02:59:19,800
Speaker 1: him not spending the rest of that life in a

3090
02:59:19,879 --> 02:59:24,360
Speaker 1: jail cell. The problem we've encountered, UM with Heat's case

3091
02:59:24,720 --> 02:59:27,520
Speaker 1: is the parole board and many just even just people

3092
02:59:27,600 --> 02:59:31,240
Speaker 1: that encounter the case wonder why would he attack and

3093
02:59:31,360 --> 02:59:34,760
Speaker 1: kill you know, his immediate family rather than his abuser.

3094
02:59:35,600 --> 02:59:38,440
Speaker 1: And in the twenty five plus years or in the

3095
02:59:39,560 --> 02:59:43,200
Speaker 1: years or so since this happened, I mean juvenile that

3096
02:59:43,360 --> 02:59:46,879
Speaker 1: our understanding of the juvenile brain neurocycle psychology in general

3097
02:59:47,560 --> 02:59:51,680
Speaker 1: UM has has come leap leaps and bounds. And so

3098
02:59:51,720 --> 02:59:55,480
Speaker 1: we know that a serially abused child has brain damage

3099
02:59:56,040 --> 02:59:59,720
Speaker 1: from really about the time that that starts happening. And

3100
02:59:59,760 --> 03:00:03,800
Speaker 1: so and heats crazy world, and we do have this

3101
03:00:03,920 --> 03:00:09,240
Speaker 1: in our clemency application. We've had UM abuse specialists evaluate

3102
03:00:09,320 --> 03:00:13,560
Speaker 1: Heath and and see how he you know, his actions

3103
03:00:13,640 --> 03:00:17,440
Speaker 1: conformed to our current understanding. Within the crazy world that

3104
03:00:17,520 --> 03:00:21,840
Speaker 1: he lived in. He actually was making dare I say,

3105
03:00:21,879 --> 03:00:26,400
Speaker 1: the reasonable decision. So Jack had demonstrated numerous times over

3106
03:00:26,440 --> 03:00:29,920
Speaker 1: the years he has physical, sexual, and and even control

3107
03:00:29,959 --> 03:00:32,039
Speaker 1: over heats life. He can end it at any time.

3108
03:00:32,160 --> 03:00:36,039
Speaker 1: He explicitly and implicitly threatens the boys all the time.

3109
03:00:36,120 --> 03:00:39,800
Speaker 1: He's got weapons everywhere, He's a Vietnam veteran. He brings

3110
03:00:39,840 --> 03:00:41,920
Speaker 1: them out to his property, shows them how to shoot,

3111
03:00:41,959 --> 03:00:45,000
Speaker 1: shows them what he will do to those who you know,

3112
03:00:45,280 --> 03:00:48,680
Speaker 1: go against him. UM. So, within Heat's world, he actually

3113
03:00:48,760 --> 03:00:54,040
Speaker 1: made a somewhat reasonable decision. He Uh, the bigger threat

3114
03:00:54,120 --> 03:00:57,160
Speaker 1: was was Jack. Um. He can't kill Jack, so he

3115
03:00:57,280 --> 03:00:59,760
Speaker 1: has to do the thing to appease Jack to avoid

3116
03:00:59,840 --> 03:01:04,400
Speaker 1: the more severe abuse. That's oversimplifying it, but that's something

3117
03:01:04,440 --> 03:01:06,480
Speaker 1: that I don't think we would have been able to

3118
03:01:06,560 --> 03:01:09,959
Speaker 1: conceptualize back in the nineties. You had the element of

3119
03:01:10,600 --> 03:01:13,640
Speaker 1: there's it's it's mail on mail, and we're talking about

3120
03:01:13,640 --> 03:01:17,360
Speaker 1: a very small rural community, UM in central Arkansas, and

3121
03:01:17,440 --> 03:01:21,200
Speaker 1: that element cannot be overlooked at all as well. That

3122
03:01:21,320 --> 03:01:23,200
Speaker 1: was a huge thing that Jack was counting on to

3123
03:01:23,280 --> 03:01:27,080
Speaker 1: keep these boys silent. UM. He explicitly told them, if

3124
03:01:27,160 --> 03:01:30,400
Speaker 1: you tell what happened to you, they're going to think

3125
03:01:30,440 --> 03:01:35,920
Speaker 1: that you are homosexual and a liar. So there's just

3126
03:01:36,720 --> 03:01:40,040
Speaker 1: there's there's just so many horrible things. UM. In this case,

3127
03:01:40,640 --> 03:01:44,480
Speaker 1: Jack had decades of experience doing this, and unfortunately, because

3128
03:01:44,480 --> 03:01:46,480
Speaker 1: of his position in the community, the son of a

3129
03:01:46,520 --> 03:01:51,280
Speaker 1: prominent judge, UM, the long time scout master, the community's

3130
03:01:51,840 --> 03:01:55,360
Speaker 1: man of the Year multiple times, UM, he had access

3131
03:01:55,480 --> 03:01:59,040
Speaker 1: to dozens and dozens of boys, in fact, entire generations

3132
03:01:59,200 --> 03:02:02,440
Speaker 1: of these of these voice in Lono County. Um Heat's

3133
03:02:02,480 --> 03:02:05,720
Speaker 1: case is just one of many. Unfortunately, it's the most

3134
03:02:05,720 --> 03:02:07,879
Speaker 1: extreme case, and it's kind of tests the balance of

3135
03:02:07,920 --> 03:02:12,760
Speaker 1: our mercy. But the kid that discovered Jack, while he's

3136
03:02:12,760 --> 03:02:16,800
Speaker 1: a hero, ultimately he killed himself and he's not the

3137
03:02:16,879 --> 03:02:19,960
Speaker 1: only one. So unfortunately the Stocks family are not the

3138
03:02:20,000 --> 03:02:23,080
Speaker 1: only people who lost their lives and not the only

3139
03:02:23,080 --> 03:02:26,920
Speaker 1: people whose lives, just like he's, were completely destroyed by

3140
03:02:27,000 --> 03:02:30,400
Speaker 1: Jack Walls. Yeah, and this is this is an important

3141
03:02:30,440 --> 03:02:32,960
Speaker 1: thing to understand because when we're talking about kind of

3142
03:02:33,000 --> 03:02:36,280
Speaker 1: the lingering impacts of childhood sexual abuse, it can take

3143
03:02:36,280 --> 03:02:40,160
Speaker 1: a wide variety of forms and when we like but

3144
03:02:40,160 --> 03:02:42,000
Speaker 1: but it but it is important to understand that the

3145
03:02:42,360 --> 03:02:45,920
Speaker 1: damage it can do goes so much further beyond like

3146
03:02:45,959 --> 03:02:49,040
Speaker 1: the physical damage done by the abuse, like these are

3147
03:02:49,560 --> 03:02:52,680
Speaker 1: your your brain is still forming and growing when you're

3148
03:02:52,680 --> 03:02:56,760
Speaker 1: that young, and he this is one manifestation of kind

3149
03:02:56,760 --> 03:02:59,840
Speaker 1: of what can happen um at the more extreme ended

3150
03:03:00,000 --> 03:03:02,720
Speaker 1: adly um as as the result like this is why

3151
03:03:02,720 --> 03:03:05,080
Speaker 1: it's such a heinous crime to abuse a child in

3152
03:03:05,160 --> 03:03:07,879
Speaker 1: this way, And it's just I don't know, like you're right,

3153
03:03:07,920 --> 03:03:11,760
Speaker 1: it is it it tests the limit of um people's

3154
03:03:11,800 --> 03:03:15,360
Speaker 1: capacity for I don't know, forgiveness seems like the wrong word,

3155
03:03:15,400 --> 03:03:18,840
Speaker 1: but like clemency. You know, this again is a pretty

3156
03:03:18,959 --> 03:03:22,680
Speaker 1: heinous crime. Um. But at the same time, I can't

3157
03:03:22,680 --> 03:03:27,840
Speaker 1: bring myself to think that what he endured leading up

3158
03:03:27,879 --> 03:03:30,520
Speaker 1: to this shouldn't have an impact on what happens to

3159
03:03:30,600 --> 03:03:34,039
Speaker 1: him afterwards, right, Like it does. It does reduce his

3160
03:03:34,040 --> 03:03:36,800
Speaker 1: his complicity in this, And I just feel it feels

3161
03:03:36,840 --> 03:03:40,119
Speaker 1: so wrong to say that, like, well, he should spend

3162
03:03:40,120 --> 03:03:44,440
Speaker 1: the rest of his life behind bars, Like that's just

3163
03:03:44,480 --> 03:03:48,440
Speaker 1: not I can't imagine anything could help, Like, I can't

3164
03:03:48,440 --> 03:03:50,960
Speaker 1: imagine that could help in any way. Um, just writing

3165
03:03:50,959 --> 03:03:54,760
Speaker 1: this this person off forever. I don't know. It just is,

3166
03:03:54,920 --> 03:03:57,840
Speaker 1: it's it's fucked. What are the next steps for y'all,

3167
03:03:57,879 --> 03:04:01,360
Speaker 1: for your for the defense team. So at this point,

3168
03:04:01,400 --> 03:04:05,880
Speaker 1: we've already filed a petition, uh, with the Arkansas Governor

3169
03:04:05,920 --> 03:04:10,000
Speaker 1: requesting a commutation. That's not a pardon, that's not something

3170
03:04:10,080 --> 03:04:12,800
Speaker 1: saying say that Heath is innocent. We're asking the governor

3171
03:04:12,840 --> 03:04:16,160
Speaker 1: to modify his sentences to a term of years forty

3172
03:04:16,240 --> 03:04:20,359
Speaker 1: years in each case, to be served concurrently, so in effect,

3173
03:04:20,400 --> 03:04:26,400
Speaker 1: one single sentence of forty years. Yeah. Uh, well, in Arkansas,

3174
03:04:26,480 --> 03:04:29,360
Speaker 1: you're actually at the time he was convicted, he'd be

3175
03:04:29,360 --> 03:04:32,640
Speaker 1: parole eligible at se. So that's twenty eight years. That's

3176
03:04:32,680 --> 03:04:34,960
Speaker 1: not a guarantee of parole. That is just what it means,

3177
03:04:35,000 --> 03:04:38,280
Speaker 1: parole eligibility. So that's what we've asked for. UM. We

3178
03:04:38,400 --> 03:04:41,720
Speaker 1: think his institutional record speaks for itself. And if and

3179
03:04:41,720 --> 03:04:45,320
Speaker 1: when he is a candidate for parole, he hopefully uh

3180
03:04:45,800 --> 03:04:49,000
Speaker 1: will make pearole. He's he's done everything within his power

3181
03:04:49,520 --> 03:04:53,840
Speaker 1: UM to do so. UM. If this fails, it's right now. UH.

3182
03:04:54,240 --> 03:04:56,920
Speaker 1: We in Arkansas at first goes to the parole Board,

3183
03:04:57,240 --> 03:05:00,240
Speaker 1: who makes a non binding recommendation to the governor. They

3184
03:05:00,240 --> 03:05:05,200
Speaker 1: have recommended that the governor deny it. UM, which is unfortunate,

3185
03:05:05,240 --> 03:05:08,520
Speaker 1: but again it's not binding. UM. The governor now has

3186
03:05:08,640 --> 03:05:12,800
Speaker 1: I believe until February or March of two to issue

3187
03:05:12,920 --> 03:05:17,199
Speaker 1: his decision. UM. He has not yet. UM. We have

3188
03:05:17,600 --> 03:05:20,160
Speaker 1: requested a sit down with the governor. I don't know

3189
03:05:20,200 --> 03:05:22,720
Speaker 1: if we'll actually sit down with Governor Asa Hutchinson. We

3190
03:05:22,760 --> 03:05:26,440
Speaker 1: will sit down with his criminal Justice coordinator. UM. We're

3191
03:05:26,480 --> 03:05:29,640
Speaker 1: thankful and lucky to have the support of all of

3192
03:05:29,680 --> 03:05:36,119
Speaker 1: the remaining victims family members, so both sides of Heat's family. UM,

3193
03:05:36,240 --> 03:05:39,080
Speaker 1: you know we have we have extensive support UM, it

3194
03:05:39,160 --> 03:05:42,640
Speaker 1: wasn't they They A lot of them had to work

3195
03:05:42,640 --> 03:05:44,600
Speaker 1: to get to this point, a lot of them had

3196
03:05:44,600 --> 03:05:47,680
Speaker 1: to understand the true impact of the abuse. But at

3197
03:05:47,680 --> 03:05:50,480
Speaker 1: this point, UM, we have extensive support from both sides

3198
03:05:50,480 --> 03:05:55,160
Speaker 1: of his family. UM. As far as we know, there

3199
03:05:55,160 --> 03:05:59,920
Speaker 1: are no objections to his commutation application from from victim

3200
03:06:00,120 --> 03:06:02,640
Speaker 1: family members. The only ones that there have been are

3201
03:06:02,680 --> 03:06:06,040
Speaker 1: from the sentencing judge or from the sentencing court. It's

3202
03:06:06,040 --> 03:06:08,400
Speaker 1: actually not the same judge and the sentencing or the

3203
03:06:08,440 --> 03:06:12,360
Speaker 1: prosecutor from that from that county, again a different person, um,

3204
03:06:12,400 --> 03:06:16,959
Speaker 1: but they felt the need to object. I should this fail,

3205
03:06:17,320 --> 03:06:22,720
Speaker 1: we will seek additional post conviction remedies um. Uh. In Arkansas,

3206
03:06:22,800 --> 03:06:25,320
Speaker 1: we have something called a petition for writ of ericorum

3207
03:06:25,400 --> 03:06:28,560
Speaker 1: nobis Um. You can file it. You have to ask

3208
03:06:28,600 --> 03:06:30,560
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, Hey, is it okay if I file

3209
03:06:30,600 --> 03:06:32,920
Speaker 1: a petition back in the trial court asking them to

3210
03:06:32,959 --> 03:06:37,360
Speaker 1: consider something that if we had known back in ninety eight,

3211
03:06:37,720 --> 03:06:40,760
Speaker 1: would have affected the outcome of the litigation. In this case,

3212
03:06:41,160 --> 03:06:45,440
Speaker 1: we would point to the we we've had heath evaluated. UM.

3213
03:06:45,480 --> 03:06:49,440
Speaker 1: It will point to that neuropsychological evaluation UM as as

3214
03:06:49,520 --> 03:06:54,720
Speaker 1: new evidence. UM. We couldn't fully make a connection at

3215
03:06:54,720 --> 03:06:58,000
Speaker 1: the time between his abuse and the offense to answer

3216
03:06:58,080 --> 03:07:02,439
Speaker 1: that question why he killed his family rather than his abuser.

3217
03:07:02,879 --> 03:07:06,279
Speaker 1: We now can and so that's what we're going to allege,

3218
03:07:06,280 --> 03:07:08,920
Speaker 1: is that is that new evidence. Um whether the court

3219
03:07:09,560 --> 03:07:12,640
Speaker 1: will will find that it is remains to be seen.

3220
03:07:12,720 --> 03:07:15,320
Speaker 1: When he tried this on his own about five years ago,

3221
03:07:15,360 --> 03:07:18,440
Speaker 1: the court denied it. He alleged the new evidence was

3222
03:07:19,920 --> 03:07:22,400
Speaker 1: the fact of the long term sexual abuse of him

3223
03:07:22,400 --> 03:07:24,480
Speaker 1: by Jack Walls, and the court in a in an

3224
03:07:24,480 --> 03:07:29,080
Speaker 1: opinion that really does not um, you know, shows shows

3225
03:07:29,080 --> 03:07:32,080
Speaker 1: the lack of understanding of long term juvenile sexual abuse

3226
03:07:32,280 --> 03:07:35,560
Speaker 1: found that well though you personally were aware of all

3227
03:07:35,600 --> 03:07:37,680
Speaker 1: of that in your own mind because it had happened

3228
03:07:37,680 --> 03:07:40,360
Speaker 1: to you, So that was not new evidence. And I mean,

3229
03:07:40,560 --> 03:07:44,400
Speaker 1: we know that the average male who makes this sort

3230
03:07:44,400 --> 03:07:49,720
Speaker 1: of disclosure it occurs deep into adulthood. So it's just

3231
03:07:50,240 --> 03:07:53,600
Speaker 1: at every level of the system. Even today, we're still

3232
03:07:53,720 --> 03:07:57,480
Speaker 1: feeling the effects of kind of that old school mentality

3233
03:07:57,520 --> 03:08:01,760
Speaker 1: about about this. And it's a fortunately we could talk

3234
03:08:01,800 --> 03:08:04,800
Speaker 1: about kind of the the car serile state and this

3235
03:08:04,879 --> 03:08:09,600
Speaker 1: idea that like penalty is the way to respond to

3236
03:08:09,640 --> 03:08:11,720
Speaker 1: any kind of crime. But even if you believe that,

3237
03:08:11,760 --> 03:08:14,920
Speaker 1: even if you believe that, like you have to punish

3238
03:08:15,040 --> 03:08:19,480
Speaker 1: people with incarceration when they commit crimes. He's done twenty

3239
03:08:19,480 --> 03:08:24,480
Speaker 1: five years, Like, that's no. No one is discussing the

3240
03:08:24,520 --> 03:08:27,640
Speaker 1: possibility of Heath not being punished for the murder, you know,

3241
03:08:27,680 --> 03:08:31,160
Speaker 1: because it's he has been not just with time behind bars,

3242
03:08:31,200 --> 03:08:33,880
Speaker 1: but the fact that his family's gone. The idea that

3243
03:08:33,920 --> 03:08:37,480
Speaker 1: the state could do anything that's worse to him than

3244
03:08:37,840 --> 03:08:40,720
Speaker 1: than the scout master did, to be honest, is kind

3245
03:08:40,720 --> 03:08:45,160
Speaker 1: of absurd in my head. But um, where is there

3246
03:08:45,160 --> 03:08:49,080
Speaker 1: anything that like I don't know, I'm trying to determine,

3247
03:08:49,120 --> 03:08:51,720
Speaker 1: like what can be done to help in this situation?

3248
03:08:51,800 --> 03:08:54,880
Speaker 1: Is there any way people can actually help outside of

3249
03:08:54,920 --> 03:08:57,160
Speaker 1: like you and the team that's that's working to try

3250
03:08:57,160 --> 03:09:02,360
Speaker 1: and sit down with the governor? Yeah? Um, I mean

3251
03:09:02,640 --> 03:09:06,440
Speaker 1: public support is is wonderful. The more people that are

3252
03:09:06,480 --> 03:09:09,320
Speaker 1: pointing out the problems than Heath's case and with his

3253
03:09:09,400 --> 03:09:12,760
Speaker 1: sentences and that are reaching out to the governor, UM,

3254
03:09:12,800 --> 03:09:16,959
Speaker 1: the better we think our chances are. UM. I apologize,

3255
03:09:16,959 --> 03:09:19,039
Speaker 1: I don't have the email address on me, but the

3256
03:09:19,080 --> 03:09:23,879
Speaker 1: governor has several publicly accessible UM accounts, as does his

3257
03:09:23,920 --> 03:09:28,520
Speaker 1: criminal Justice coordinator, even just getting on Facebook, UM and

3258
03:09:28,520 --> 03:09:31,920
Speaker 1: and bringing it up. UM. There's a Facebook account managed

3259
03:09:31,920 --> 03:09:35,000
Speaker 1: by one of Heath's friends, UM in Florida called at

3260
03:09:35,040 --> 03:09:39,039
Speaker 1: Hope for heat Stocks. UM. It's a there's also a website.

3261
03:09:39,640 --> 03:09:42,280
Speaker 1: I think it's Hope for heat Stocks dot info. It's

3262
03:09:42,360 --> 03:09:45,600
Speaker 1: probably the most extensive trove of resources in this case.

3263
03:09:45,640 --> 03:09:48,640
Speaker 1: It has almost all original documents. It's where I still

3264
03:09:48,680 --> 03:09:51,640
Speaker 1: go to access things when I need them, even though

3265
03:09:51,720 --> 03:09:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, I am his attorney. So there's a lot

3266
03:09:55,240 --> 03:09:57,680
Speaker 1: out there. There's a lot of ways to support the cause,

3267
03:09:58,480 --> 03:10:01,400
Speaker 1: even just telling other people about out it. UM. We

3268
03:10:01,480 --> 03:10:09,119
Speaker 1: do have a documentary in the works. UM. I actually

3269
03:10:09,560 --> 03:10:11,560
Speaker 1: don't think it has a producer at this point, but

3270
03:10:11,600 --> 03:10:15,520
Speaker 1: we're hopeful to have something out in early to make Feith,

3271
03:10:15,680 --> 03:10:18,280
Speaker 1: to make Jack, to make this case more of a

3272
03:10:18,320 --> 03:10:22,040
Speaker 1: household name. UM. The hopes that you know, if any

3273
03:10:22,080 --> 03:10:25,720
Speaker 1: sort of UM, you know, if there's more support out there,

3274
03:10:25,760 --> 03:10:29,440
Speaker 1: more pressure on the governor, it will increase the odds

3275
03:10:29,480 --> 03:10:31,959
Speaker 1: that that will do the right thing here. Yeah. I mean,

3276
03:10:32,000 --> 03:10:35,160
Speaker 1: this shouldn't be a political issue. There shouldn't be a

3277
03:10:35,240 --> 03:10:37,400
Speaker 1: left or right thing, Like everyone should be able to

3278
03:10:37,440 --> 03:10:42,080
Speaker 1: see this is uh this is the result of abuse,

3279
03:10:42,280 --> 03:10:46,600
Speaker 1: and that should have an impact on the what we

3280
03:10:46,640 --> 03:10:49,879
Speaker 1: actually what's actually what our society actually does to this

3281
03:10:50,000 --> 03:10:52,600
Speaker 1: kid in the wake of the crime. Perhaps it's like

3282
03:10:52,680 --> 03:10:57,480
Speaker 1: foolish to hope for some sort of rationality as regards

3283
03:10:57,680 --> 03:11:00,240
Speaker 1: a case like this, but I would hope that we

3284
03:11:00,320 --> 03:11:04,960
Speaker 1: could be rational about this and everyone agree, yes, this

3285
03:11:05,040 --> 03:11:09,680
Speaker 1: kid deserves something more than what he's gotten. UM. I

3286
03:11:09,680 --> 03:11:15,000
Speaker 1: don't know. It's it's a bleak one though, that's putting

3287
03:11:15,000 --> 03:11:18,320
Speaker 1: it lightly. New York recently recently passed a law that

3288
03:11:18,400 --> 03:11:21,080
Speaker 1: kind of acknowledged kind of where you're at with it

3289
03:11:21,560 --> 03:11:25,360
Speaker 1: for victims of domestic or sexual abuse who then committed

3290
03:11:25,360 --> 03:11:30,280
Speaker 1: crimes um that weren't necessarily during the course of that

3291
03:11:30,400 --> 03:11:33,840
Speaker 1: specific abuse UM. And it allowed people like Heath to

3292
03:11:34,000 --> 03:11:39,280
Speaker 1: apply for resentencing if they met certain statutory qualifications um

3293
03:11:39,400 --> 03:11:42,959
Speaker 1: for things that mitigated their crime, didn't justify it. But

3294
03:11:43,040 --> 03:11:46,440
Speaker 1: that didn't come out originally. Unfortunately, in Arkansas, we don't

3295
03:11:46,480 --> 03:11:49,160
Speaker 1: have a similar process. The only thing we have available

3296
03:11:49,240 --> 03:11:52,920
Speaker 1: is this clemency commutation process. And unfortunately, as you said,

3297
03:11:52,920 --> 03:11:55,160
Speaker 1: it should be a political but it's not. It's it's

3298
03:11:55,160 --> 03:11:59,160
Speaker 1: explicitly political. The Parole Board are all appointees by our governor,

3299
03:11:59,520 --> 03:12:02,000
Speaker 1: the governor or as an elected official. There's a reason

3300
03:12:02,040 --> 03:12:04,760
Speaker 1: we filed it in the last year of his last

3301
03:12:04,879 --> 03:12:07,560
Speaker 1: term in Arkansas. He has term limited, so we're trying

3302
03:12:07,600 --> 03:12:10,400
Speaker 1: to get him at a point where he's as free

3303
03:12:10,480 --> 03:12:14,000
Speaker 1: from the politics to do what he actually thinks is correct.

3304
03:12:14,120 --> 03:12:19,000
Speaker 1: But to think that politics will be removed is I mean, yeah,

3305
03:12:19,160 --> 03:12:21,960
Speaker 1: it never is. No, this is this is the United

3306
03:12:22,000 --> 03:12:26,200
Speaker 1: States inies. You know, politics is is a factor here,

3307
03:12:26,720 --> 03:12:29,800
Speaker 1: and there's a deeply divisive case in the state and

3308
03:12:30,000 --> 03:12:33,879
Speaker 1: especially in Lono County. Well, it's hard I can imagine

3309
03:12:33,879 --> 03:12:36,760
Speaker 1: it being hard to talk with people about just because again,

3310
03:12:36,800 --> 03:12:39,120
Speaker 1: the nature of the crime is is horrific. And so

3311
03:12:39,160 --> 03:12:41,440
Speaker 1: if you talk about like, well, we we think this

3312
03:12:41,480 --> 03:12:44,520
Speaker 1: guy should have another chance at life, and you're like, well,

3313
03:12:44,520 --> 03:12:48,320
Speaker 1: but he killed three people, he killed his sister, and yes,

3314
03:12:48,400 --> 03:12:50,920
Speaker 1: that is the case, but that's not the only thing

3315
03:12:50,959 --> 03:12:54,520
Speaker 1: going down here. And you just have to I think,

3316
03:12:54,560 --> 03:12:56,480
Speaker 1: if you're if you're at all, even if you're not

3317
03:12:56,680 --> 03:12:59,120
Speaker 1: coming at this from kind of politically where I am

3318
03:12:59,200 --> 03:13:02,960
Speaker 1: in regarding you know, the car serial state, you have

3319
03:13:03,000 --> 03:13:06,960
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that, like, this is not a race Heath's cribes.

3320
03:13:07,080 --> 03:13:09,640
Speaker 1: But Heath's cribs were also the result of not just

3321
03:13:09,840 --> 03:13:12,760
Speaker 1: the scout master's abuse, but of a number of failures

3322
03:13:12,800 --> 03:13:15,280
Speaker 1: on a on a wide level in our society that

3323
03:13:15,360 --> 03:13:19,440
Speaker 1: allowed that abuse to occur. Um And so, I don't know,

3324
03:13:19,520 --> 03:13:23,000
Speaker 1: I I feel like there's a lot of reasons why

3325
03:13:23,040 --> 03:13:26,600
Speaker 1: it behooves us to give this kid another chance. I

3326
03:13:26,600 --> 03:13:29,840
Speaker 1: don't know. That doesn't make it easier to convince anyone else,

3327
03:13:29,959 --> 03:13:33,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, well, how would this case play out if

3328
03:13:33,720 --> 03:13:38,840
Speaker 1: it happened today versus in even in a more rural

3329
03:13:38,879 --> 03:13:41,400
Speaker 1: part of Arkansas. I think our understanding of several of

3330
03:13:41,440 --> 03:13:45,840
Speaker 1: the issues here, it is so has come so far

3331
03:13:46,480 --> 03:13:48,760
Speaker 1: that my hope is Heath would have received a term

3332
03:13:48,800 --> 03:13:52,400
Speaker 1: of years rather than being charged with capital murder. They

3333
03:13:52,760 --> 03:13:55,440
Speaker 1: originally we're seeking the death penalty, and he made a

3334
03:13:55,480 --> 03:13:58,560
Speaker 1: deal for multiple life sentences, both as someone under twenty

3335
03:13:58,560 --> 03:14:01,440
Speaker 1: one and as a victim of long term sexual abuse.

3336
03:14:01,520 --> 03:14:04,400
Speaker 1: I would like to think that if this happened today,

3337
03:14:04,520 --> 03:14:07,840
Speaker 1: even in that county, what we're asking for is something

3338
03:14:07,879 --> 03:14:12,120
Speaker 1: close to what what would what would happen? I hope,

3339
03:14:12,840 --> 03:14:16,040
Speaker 1: I would hope so that that's why, again, we didn't

3340
03:14:16,040 --> 03:14:18,520
Speaker 1: ask for a pardon. We didn't ask let him out today.

3341
03:14:18,640 --> 03:14:21,360
Speaker 1: We said let him earn it, let him still feel

3342
03:14:21,400 --> 03:14:23,760
Speaker 1: the weight of of what he has done, but give

3343
03:14:23,840 --> 03:14:25,959
Speaker 1: him that light at the end of the tunnel. Because

3344
03:14:26,440 --> 03:14:29,440
Speaker 1: you know, there is no one in the Arkansas Department

3345
03:14:29,440 --> 03:14:34,320
Speaker 1: of Correction, even with the There's just not a victim

3346
03:14:34,360 --> 03:14:36,480
Speaker 1: like him there, and there's not someone who who could

3347
03:14:36,480 --> 03:14:39,760
Speaker 1: be an advocate for victims like him were he to

3348
03:14:39,800 --> 03:14:44,360
Speaker 1: be released. So yep, well, all right, Michael, is there

3349
03:14:44,360 --> 03:14:46,760
Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to get into with this or

3350
03:14:47,480 --> 03:14:50,400
Speaker 1: any other ways people might be able to help check

3351
03:14:50,400 --> 03:14:56,240
Speaker 1: out the website again, post on social media. Um. Uh.

3352
03:14:56,440 --> 03:14:58,640
Speaker 1: The one thing I think we didn't focus on here

3353
03:14:58,720 --> 03:15:02,720
Speaker 1: is heat himself. Um. Heath is a deeply spiritual individual.

3354
03:15:02,879 --> 03:15:05,800
Speaker 1: He's someone who lives with this on his conscious almost

3355
03:15:05,840 --> 03:15:09,560
Speaker 1: every moment of the day. This is not not someone

3356
03:15:09,680 --> 03:15:13,039
Speaker 1: who you know, feels he's skated by by avoiding the

3357
03:15:13,080 --> 03:15:15,840
Speaker 1: death penalty. Um. This is someone who has had to

3358
03:15:15,920 --> 03:15:19,120
Speaker 1: learn about trauma mostly on his own because with those

3359
03:15:19,160 --> 03:15:22,120
Speaker 1: life sentences, he is ineligible for so many of the

3360
03:15:22,160 --> 03:15:25,480
Speaker 1: programs of the scant programs and resources that we have

3361
03:15:25,560 --> 03:15:27,680
Speaker 1: in the Department of Correction because they don't give it

3362
03:15:27,720 --> 03:15:31,240
Speaker 1: to people who don't have parole dates. So he's had

3363
03:15:31,320 --> 03:15:33,360
Speaker 1: to do a lot of this on his own. He's

3364
03:15:33,400 --> 03:15:37,039
Speaker 1: come a remarkable way. He's still someone that needs, um,

3365
03:15:37,080 --> 03:15:41,400
Speaker 1: probably extensive treatment and therapy to deal with his own

3366
03:15:41,440 --> 03:15:44,480
Speaker 1: trauma as well as to deal with the effects of

3367
03:15:44,520 --> 03:15:49,199
Speaker 1: what he did on himself. Um, but he's a remarkable individual.

3368
03:15:49,680 --> 03:15:52,080
Speaker 1: He's a great self advocate. I wish you could speak

3369
03:15:52,120 --> 03:15:55,320
Speaker 1: with him as well. Um, he's someone I'm proud to represent.

3370
03:15:55,560 --> 03:15:58,200
Speaker 1: Not just that I do because I get paid. Um,

3371
03:15:58,240 --> 03:16:00,240
Speaker 1: this is why I got into the practic. Just a

3372
03:16:00,320 --> 03:16:04,480
Speaker 1: law is this type of case. Um, he is not innocent,

3373
03:16:04,920 --> 03:16:08,560
Speaker 1: but he is not. Uh, he should not be bearing

3374
03:16:08,560 --> 03:16:11,880
Speaker 1: the full weight of what occurred. While you know, Jack

3375
03:16:12,080 --> 03:16:14,080
Speaker 1: is serving a life sentence. I think he should have

3376
03:16:14,120 --> 03:16:16,840
Speaker 1: one or two or three more for his role in this.

3377
03:16:17,360 --> 03:16:20,840
Speaker 1: I mean heats youth and heats brain damage. Because of that,

3378
03:16:20,920 --> 03:16:24,400
Speaker 1: sexual abuse should have and now should be considered. And

3379
03:16:24,440 --> 03:16:27,720
Speaker 1: we just hope the governor will Yeah, yeah, hopefully so.

3380
03:16:27,920 --> 03:16:29,880
Speaker 1: And again, if you want to learn more, there's heath

3381
03:16:29,920 --> 03:16:33,400
Speaker 1: stocks dot info. Um, there's a lot of good about

3382
03:16:33,480 --> 03:16:37,240
Speaker 1: Jack Walls on there as well. Um, and you can

3383
03:16:37,280 --> 03:16:42,080
Speaker 1: there's a link to make a donation to Heath's defense. Um.

3384
03:16:42,120 --> 03:16:44,000
Speaker 1: All right, well Michael, thank you so much for coming

3385
03:16:44,000 --> 03:16:46,160
Speaker 1: on today. UM, and I hope you have a good

3386
03:16:46,360 --> 03:17:01,880
Speaker 1: recipe week. Now's well, hey, We'll be back Monday with

3387
03:17:02,040 --> 03:17:04,879
Speaker 1: more episodes every week from now until the heat death

3388
03:17:04,920 --> 03:17:07,680
Speaker 1: of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a production

3389
03:17:07,680 --> 03:17:10,720
Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

3390
03:17:10,840 --> 03:17:13,280
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone Media dot com or check

3391
03:17:13,360 --> 03:17:15,600
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3392
03:17:15,720 --> 03:17:18,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

3393
03:17:18,760 --> 03:17:21,320
Speaker 1: for It Could Happen here, updated monthly at cool zone

3394
03:17:21,320 --> 03:17:25,400
Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. I'm Tanya Sam,

3395
03:17:25,520 --> 03:17:28,520
Speaker 1: host of the Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenwood. This

3396
03:17:28,600 --> 03:17:30,959
Speaker 1: daily podcast will help give you the keys to the

3397
03:17:31,040 --> 03:17:34,920
Speaker 1: Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance. With celebrity guests

3398
03:17:34,920 --> 03:17:38,879
Speaker 1: like Rick Ross, Amanda Sells, Angela Ye, Roland, Martin, JB. Smooth,

3399
03:17:38,879 --> 03:17:41,120
Speaker 1: and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn

3400
03:17:41,160 --> 03:17:45,360
Speaker 1: liabilities into assets and make your money moves up. They

3401
03:17:46,879 --> 03:17:49,640
Speaker 1: subscribe to The Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenland on

3402
03:17:49,640 --> 03:17:51,879
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your

3403
03:17:51,959 --> 03:17:55,640
Speaker 1: podcasts and make sure you leave a review. Make sure

3404
03:17:55,640 --> 03:17:58,320
Speaker 1: to check out Drink Champs, your number one music podcast.

3405
03:17:58,360 --> 03:18:01,080
Speaker 1: On the Black Effect Podcast Network, hosts an O. R

3406
03:18:01,120 --> 03:18:02,920
Speaker 1: E and d J. E. F N sat down with

3407
03:18:03,040 --> 03:18:06,879
Speaker 1: artists and icon Yea, which Vulture called one of most

3408
03:18:06,920 --> 03:18:10,880
Speaker 1: significant interviews. I literally had to go like Danos and

3409
03:18:10,920 --> 03:18:12,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to be the villain. But

3410
03:18:12,680 --> 03:18:16,119
Speaker 1: when I went and did the Donda thing, Yea returned

3411
03:18:16,680 --> 03:18:19,720
Speaker 1: and anybody had to sit back and watch the real leader.

3412
03:18:20,000 --> 03:18:22,720
Speaker 1: Check out drink Champ's conversation with Yea and many more

3413
03:18:22,800 --> 03:18:25,480
Speaker 1: legendary artists each and every Friday on the I Heart

3414
03:18:25,560 --> 03:18:28,280
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your

3415
03:18:28,280 --> 03:18:33,520
Speaker 1: favorite shows. When P. T. Barnum's Great American Museum burned

3416
03:18:33,520 --> 03:18:36,120
Speaker 1: to the ground in eighteen sixty five, what rose from

3417
03:18:36,120 --> 03:18:39,640
Speaker 1: its ashes would change the world? Welcome to Grim and

3418
03:18:39,680 --> 03:18:43,320
Speaker 1: Mild Presents, an ongoing journey into the strange, the unusual,

3419
03:18:43,520 --> 03:18:46,640
Speaker 1: and the fascinating. In our inaugural season, will give you

3420
03:18:46,680 --> 03:18:50,039
Speaker 1: a backstage tour of the complex and unusual artifact that

3421
03:18:50,240 --> 03:18:53,720
Speaker 1: is the American Side Show. Listen to Grim and Mile

3422
03:18:53,840 --> 03:18:56,959
Speaker 1: Presents now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3423
03:18:57,080 --> 03:18:59,040
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts.