1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. I'm so thrilled, 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: truly over the moon excited to be talking with Tracy 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: Borman today, chief historian of Historic Royal Palaces, Chief executive 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: of Heritage Education Trust, Chancellor and professor at Lincoln Bishop University, 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: author of the incredible new book The Stolen Crown, truly 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: one of my favorite books that I've read this year 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: so far, a new book that contains, I would say 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: a bombshell discovery about Elizabeth the First's deathbed confirmation that 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: the crown should go to her cousin, King James the 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: sixth of Scotland. The bombshell revelation that that deathbed declaration was, 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: let's just say, less straightforward than previously believed. We'll get 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: into that in this conversation, but before we do, just 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: welcome Tracy Borman. Thank you so much for being here. 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for having me back here. 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: Always lovely chatting with you, and I'm very excited to 17 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: be delving into the dark world of the Elizabethan succession. 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: So before we talk about that famous deathbed confession, let's 19 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more broadly about the context. Queen 20 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: Elizabeth I had decided to be the virgin queen, obviously 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: a strategic decision, but one that left her with no heirs. 22 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: So what did that look like throughout her life? What 23 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: were the pros and cons of that decision. 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: Yes, it was a very controversial decision, and it's one that, 25 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: as you say, she made from the very beginning of 26 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 2: her reign, declaring to her first Parliament that she would 27 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: live and die a virgin. And I think really, although 28 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: people reacted with shock, they didn't completely believe her. They thought, 29 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: perhaps she's just increasing her value on the marriage market, 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: you know, playing hard to get if you will, But 31 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: then became obvious she really did mean it. And as 32 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: she declared, and this is my favorite of all Elizabeth's quo, 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: she said, I will have but one mistress here and 34 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: no master, and she meant it. And I actually personally 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 2: think that in terms of Elizabeth's own reign, it was 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: the right call because it would have been very hard 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: to choose a husband that wouldn't be divisive. So her 38 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: sister Mary had proved how dangerous it was to marry 39 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 2: somebody from overseas, her marriage to Philip of Spain had 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 2: been deeply unpopular, sparking revolt and rebellion, and if she'd 41 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: married an English subject that would have been no less divisive, really, 42 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: and there was no simple choice. And also I think 43 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: Elizabeth has been put off marriage by the example of 44 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: her mother amberleyn and you know, one of her stepmothers, 45 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 2: and her early sort of life, So I can't blame her. 46 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: I think it was the right decision. But of course 47 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 2: the kind of payoff was the succession, because if she 48 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: didn't marry, then who on earth was going to come 49 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: to the throne after her? She was the last of 50 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: Henry Yate's children and the last of the Tudors. There 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: was nobody else, so it kind of raised the states 52 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: early on for what on earth was going to follow. 53 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: And one thing that Elizabeth did very cleverly, I would say, 54 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: is sort of dangle the prospect first of marriage that 55 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: she probably had no intention of ever following through. But 56 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: also who would be next in line? By not naming 57 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: an Air explicitly, she was able to use that promise 58 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: sort of strategically and diplomatically, So who were sort of 59 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: the options that she was playing with for who would 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: succeed her. 61 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she was always wonderfully ambiguous about this. I 62 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: think she once said, when I am dead, they will 63 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: succeed that have most right. So she didn't even commit 64 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: to agenda in saying that, you know, and she was 65 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: very deliberately ambiguous. Of course, there were various people with 66 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: a very strong claim to her throne. If we're talking 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 2: blood alone, a blood tied to the Tudors throne, then 68 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: Elizabeth's kind of early reign. Then the strongest claimant was 69 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: her great rival, Mary, Queen of Scott's. She was descended 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: from Henry the seventh's eldest daughter, Margaret, and Margaret had 71 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 2: married into the Scottish royal family. But it's really important 72 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: to point out, given this is all about a stolen crown, 73 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: that Henry had actually banned the Stuarts from ever inheriting 74 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: the crown of England, and this was kind of glossed 75 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: over when later on James the sixth of Scotland came 76 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: to Elizabeth's throne, but he passed several different acts banning 77 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: the Scots and also named different heirs in his last 78 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: will and testament. The sisters of Lady Jane Gray, and 79 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 2: in fact they were also foremost rivals for Elizabeth's throne. 80 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: So we're talking about Catherine and Mary Gray. Poor Lady Jane, 81 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: of course had been executed by Elizabeth's sister Mary, and 82 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: they were descended from Henry the Seventh's younger daughter Mary. 83 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 2: Now age usually counted in the succession, so Margaret had 84 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: their advantage. But the fact that Henry the eighth disinherited 85 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 2: her descendants meant that that younger daughter Mary had the advantage. 86 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 2: And among her descendants were the sisters of Lady Jane Gray, 87 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 2: Catherine and Mary, and. 88 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: There was of course poor Arabella as well. 89 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,559 Speaker 2: Poor Albella Stuart, again descendant of that Princess Margaret, Henry 90 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: the seventh daughter. But she had the advantage over Mary, 91 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: Queen of Scott's and her son James, because she was 92 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: born in England, and that really mattered. Like today we 93 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: talk about the United Kingdom, England and Scotland are part 94 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: of the same kingdom, but they weren't at this time, 95 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: and there'd been this long standing hostility for centuries between 96 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: England and Scotland. They saw each other as foreigners. You know, 97 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: the people in England called Scott's people Aliens. You know, 98 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 2: they didn't want a Scott on the throne, so Arbella. 99 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: Yes she was of Scottish descent, but she was born 100 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: in England, so actually she gave Mary Quein of Scott's 101 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 2: and her son James a real run for their money 102 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 2: when it came to this race for Elizabeth's crown. And 103 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 2: I probably shouldn't have favorites, but among the claimants to 104 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: Elizabeth's throne, I think Olbella has to be mine because 105 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: it's such a tragic story. Hers really shows that when 106 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 2: it came to claimants to the throne, royal blood was 107 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: far more of a curse than a blessing. And ultimately 108 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: she ends up dying a prisoner in the tower, and 109 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: quite a few of the other claimants meet fairly awful 110 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: ends as well, because you know Elizabeth keeps them close. 111 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: She doesn't flinch from imprisoning them, putting them to death 112 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: in some cases. So it's actually quite dangerous to have 113 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: a right to the throne. 114 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: I think one thing you capture in your book so 115 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: well is the relationship between England and Scotland at this time. 116 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: I think now many readers might not quite understand, of course, 117 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: as you said, it's the United Kingdom. What difference would 118 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: it make if a scott married an English woman or 119 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: an english woman married a Scottish man, or vice versa. 120 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: But you capture quite well this sense that if a 121 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: Scottish man were to marry an English princess or an 122 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: English queen, there might be the sense that it was 123 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: Scotland absorbing England and not the other way around. Can 124 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: you speak to that tension a little bit? 125 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, there was definitely attention because a number of 126 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: marriage alliances had been proposed over the years between England 127 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: and Scotland, notably between Henry the Yight's son Edward and 128 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: the future Mary, Queen of Scott's. Now Henry the eighth 129 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 2: was quite in favor of that alliance, but the Scottish 130 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: people weren't because whoever had the son, the assumption was, 131 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: you know, they would be the dominant one. And then 132 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: that was switched around when, of course, Henry the Seventh's 133 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: daughter Margaret, married the King of Scots, James the fourth, 134 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: and Henry the seventh had a lot of opposition from 135 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: his government saying, look, what's going to happen. Are they 136 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: going to be king and Queen of England, and that 137 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: means that the King of Scotland really. 138 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: Is going to be running the show one hundred years later. 139 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: How right would they be exactly exactly? This marriage is 140 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: pivotal in the history of not just the Elizabethan succession 141 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 2: but the British monarchy as a whole. So Margaret of 142 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: England married James of Scotland in the year fifteen oh three. 143 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: She was just thirteen years old, James was thirty and 144 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: it'd be a few years before she had a child, 145 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: but she gave birth to that crucial son, James the fifth, 146 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: and it's his daughter that was Mary, Queen of Scott's, 147 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: So you can see how close Mary Queen of Scott's 148 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: was rather to the Tudor throne, and she had a 149 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: very very good pedigree. But as I say, you know, 150 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: Henry the eighth didn't think so much of the Stuarts, 151 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: and neither did Elizabeth's subjects really, so it was definitely 152 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: not straightforward. There is nothing straightforward about the race for 153 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: Elizabeth's throne. And I think that's a really crucial point 154 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: as well, in that for four centuries we've been kind 155 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:57,119 Speaker 2: of sold this narrative of a smooth transition Tudors to Stuarts. 156 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: It's all very natural and predetermined, and now, of course, 157 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: with this new discovery, we know it was neither of 158 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: those things. 159 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: So throughout Elizabeth's life, was it sort of assumed that 160 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: James was the front runner or is that sort of 161 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: retroactive history. 162 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 2: I think it's definitely retroactive history. He was certainly one 163 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: of the lead contenders, and to be fair, Elizabeth showed 164 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: him an advantage that she showed none of the other 165 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: claimants at all. 166 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: Being a man, I imagine that gave him an advantage 167 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: as well. 168 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: This is so depressing, but so true. It really counted. 169 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: You know, this was not an age where women were 170 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: supposed to rule. They weren't even supposed to rule their 171 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: own lives, led alone a kingdom, and yet England had 172 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 2: had three queens in succession in Lady Jane Gray, Mary, Elizabeth, 173 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: and one of Elizabeth's government actually said the people of 174 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 2: England are wishing no more queens. So great though Elizabeth was, 175 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: there was a sense that, yeah, we need king next. 176 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: So that did give James an edge, and also Elizabeth 177 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: gave him an edge because fun fact, they established a 178 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: correspondence that lasted longer than any two sovereigns in the 179 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: early modern period, so they wrote more letters over a 180 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: longer period of time than any other two sovereigns. Thirty 181 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 2: years their correspondence endured. James was just six when he 182 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 2: wrote his first letter to Elizabeth, and the letters are 183 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: all really on a theme. I mean, there are lots 184 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: of niceties and expressions of friendship, but Elizabeth is very 185 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: definitely trying to help James. She's advising him how to 186 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: be a good King of England. Effectively, you can't help 187 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: think she's kind of grooming him for the role. Sometimes, 188 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: although she never quite commits, she'll then kind of backtrack 189 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: and just casually mention Arbella or one of the other claimants, 190 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: leave James wondering if she really does want him as 191 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: the next king. 192 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: And of course there is the slight damper of the 193 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: fact that she had to execute his mother, Mary, Queen 194 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: of Scuds. 195 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the elephant in the room, isn't it, The 196 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: fact that she orders his mother's beheading, And that definitely 197 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: challenges this friendly relationship that you know, had endured for 198 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: many years up until this point, until fifteen eighty seven 199 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 2: when Mary was executed, and it was really fascinating actually 200 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: reading their correspondence at this point, because first of all, 201 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 2: Elizabeth tries to avoid the blame for this, saying anything 202 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: from oh, I didn't realize it was the warrant. I 203 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: was signing the execution warrant and then saying, yeah, but 204 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: I didn't mean it to be issued, and I never 205 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: gave the order for that. Actually she was on sure 206 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 2: ground with that. She never did give the order for 207 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: the execution warrant to be issued. But by then, you know, 208 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 2: her exasperated counselors like, just send the thing to fotheringate 209 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 2: and let it be done, because they waited so long 210 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 2: for Elizabeth to act against Mary. So she apologizes to James, 211 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: but she also tries to free herself blame James. Now 212 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: you might think he's going to be furious with Elizabeth, 213 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: and his subjects certainly are. In fact, you know, half 214 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: of Scotland is calling on James to go to war 215 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: against England to avenge his mother's execution. But James doesn't 216 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: really want to because he grew up not knowing his mother. 217 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: He was just months old when she fled to England 218 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 2: and he took over the crown of Scotland, and he 219 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: was raised by men very hostile to Mary, Protestant men, 220 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: And that's really important to point out, thank you, because 221 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: of course Mary is a great Catholic figurehead. One of 222 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 2: the reasons she's so dangerous to Elizabeth for so many 223 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 2: years is Elizabeth Protestant. So any English Catholics look to 224 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: Mary and they plot against Elizabeth to put Mary on 225 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 2: the throne. But now there's this difficult situation because James, 226 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: you know, personally speaking, doesn't have a strong connection to 227 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: his now dead mother, and yet his subjects are calling 228 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: on him to go to war, but also doesn't really 229 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: want to rock the boat because he desperately wants Elizabeth 230 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: to name him her heir. So there's this kind of 231 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 2: little dance that takes place in letter form between Elizabeth, 232 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: who's come of going down on bended knees begging his forgiveness, 233 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: and James, who has to kind of appear a little 234 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 2: bit cross that she's accidentally lapped his mother's head off, 235 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: but then remarkably quickly forgives her rather for the whole thing, 236 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 2: and they both sort of agree water under the bridge, 237 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: it's all in the past, we won't talk about it, 238 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: and let's just go back to our friendly letters, and 239 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: that's exactly what they did. Neither of them referred to 240 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: it ever. 241 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: Again, Oh that's like bygones, be bygones. 242 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: What's a little execution between friends. 243 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: Another thing that you make very clear in your book 244 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: is that the throne of England really was a prize, 245 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: especially compared to the throne of Scotland. I think people here, well, 246 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: if you're a king, you're a king. But as you 247 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: mentioned in the book, I think I have in front 248 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: of me that it was. The income of the English 249 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: monarchy was nineteen times the income of the Scottish king. 250 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: England was far more cosmopolitan, many more cities. It was 251 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: a real prize that King James was fighting for. 252 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: He really wanted England like he really wanted England. It 253 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: was the superior kingdom. I'm not saying that from an 254 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: Anglo centric point of view, obviously I live in England. 255 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: But it was superior in wealth, in its position in Europe, 256 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: you know, in being the envy of Europe, in terms 257 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: of this kind of glittering court that Elizabeth had established. 258 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: So it was a real player on the world stage 259 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: in a way that Scotland wasn't and it had riches, 260 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: as you's say, nineteen times the income of the Scottish crown. 261 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: So no wonder James was rather keen to get his 262 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: hands on that English crown. And you know he wasn't 263 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: terribly subtle about it. You know, he was constantly in 264 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: these letters that passed between London and Edinburgh pleading with Elizabeth. Look, 265 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: just name me your Air. Let's just settle this once 266 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: and for all. And Elizabeth was brilliant at what her 267 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: contemporary is called answers answerless, so you know she said 268 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: back this reply that was kind of an answer, but 269 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: actually didn't really give him what he wanted. And she 270 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: would always use the prospect that she might name him 271 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: Air as like a carrot that she would dangle in 272 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 2: front of him to to sort of make him behave 273 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: to make him a good ally to England. So he 274 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: was always very very conscious that he couldn't really upset 275 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: that delicate balance with Elizabeth. 276 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: And of course he wouldn't want any physical harm to 277 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: come to her, because you know, once he was named Air, 278 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: then you know, heaven forbid if anything should happen to her, 279 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: it would be his further taking. 280 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: Right, then, that's funny you should say that because in 281 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: fifteen ninety eight, so Elizabeth well into her sixties by now, 282 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: this is sense that she's living on borrow time. But 283 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: to James it seems like the Queen of England is 284 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: just going on forever. She's never going to die, and 285 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 2: still she hasn't named him her successor. And there is 286 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: a little hint, more than a hint that actually in 287 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: fifteen ninety eight James lost patience because in that year 288 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 2: a man with the wonderful and almost false name of 289 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: Valentine Thomas, pretty sure it is a false name. He 290 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: was arrested on the Scottish border, and he was arrested 291 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 2: for stealing horses. But when the English authorities questioned him, 292 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: they got more than they bargained for, because Valentine Thomas 293 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: attested that he'd had several meetings with the King of 294 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: Scots in Edinburgh, during which he had agreed to James's 295 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: request that he rides south to England, and he murdered 296 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: Elizabeth and he would be paid very handsomely for it. Well, 297 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 2: Elizabeth was told of timed Thomas's confession, and she chose 298 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: not to believe it, and whether or not she actually did, 299 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: but she chose not to, but as a courtesy she 300 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 2: wrote to James just to kind of inform him of 301 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 2: the whole thing. But she said, look, I'm going to 302 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 2: cover it all up. Don't worry. Valentine Thomas's in prison. 303 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: Nothing's going to come of this. And this is one 304 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: of many occasions when James really should have listened to 305 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: Elizabeth's advice, because he never did, and I should have 306 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: made that clear. All of those letters really were in vain. 307 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: James just thought, what does she know, She's just a woman. 308 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: So he kind of besieged Elizabeth with letter after letter, 309 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 2: outraged that he'd been named in this plot and protesting too, 310 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 2: blumming much that he had had nothing to do with it, 311 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 2: and saying no, no, wasn't me and never met the man. 312 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 2: And he did it so many times that Elizabeth got 313 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: really suspicious of him and thought, h why is he 314 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 2: doing this? And then James went even further and he 315 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 2: insisted that Elizabeth publish a proclamation to the people of 316 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: England clearing his name of the Valentine Thomas assassination plot. 317 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: But of course all this did was to make the 318 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: people of England aware of the plot and to make 319 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 2: them suspect that James really had been involved. 320 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: It's a tudor example of the barber streisand effect. Don't 321 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: draw people's attention to this. 322 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: Exactly if you don't want them to know about it, 323 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 2: really don't protest about it. It's exactly the barber stress 324 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 2: under fate. I thought of that very thing when I 325 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: was writing the book. It's like, come on, James, ah, 326 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: just listen to Elizabeth. And it really did damage his 327 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 2: standing in England and with Elizabeth. And I think Elizabeth 328 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 2: was just whether or not she was really suspicious of him. 329 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: She was exasperated with him. She's like, just come on, 330 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: this needs to just go away. But James wouldn't let 331 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: it go away, and it was to his cost. 332 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: Skipping or just a little bit, to Elizabeth's deathbed. The story, 333 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: as it's been popularly understood, largely from an account by 334 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: a man named William Camden, is that on Elizabeth's deathbed 335 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: she pretty explicitly named James as her heir. But as 336 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: you reveal in this book, that might not have exactly 337 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: been the case. 338 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 2: That's exactly so. Now this fascinating new research by a 339 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: student called Helena Rotovska working with the British Library, and 340 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: she was studying the original manuscript of William Camden's Annals 341 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 2: of Elizabeth, his history of Elizabeth, which runs into several volumes. 342 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 2: By the way, the manuscript itself hadn't been really looked 343 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: at that much by historians because and I count myself 344 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: in this, we've all relied on the published version, which 345 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: arrived a few years after Elizabeth's death. But looking at 346 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: the original manuscript it became obvious how much it had 347 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: been altered. There were lots of crossings out. But also 348 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: what research has noticed was that many pages had been 349 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: pasted in covering Camden's original text, two hundred pages actually, 350 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 2: and then they found that in sixteen oh eight. So 351 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 2: when James had been king for five years, he actually 352 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: got in touch with Camden and he ordered him to 353 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: rewrite his manuscript because Camden had written his complete history 354 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: of Elizabeth up to and including her death, but he 355 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: hadn't intended to publish it. He didn't want to because 356 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 2: it's a bit tricky publishing an account of a queen 357 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: who's now dead and then there's somebody else on the 358 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 2: throne and new dynasty, so he kind of buried it. 359 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: But James heard about it, and he ordered Camden to 360 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 2: take up his quill and to rewrite certain sections of 361 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: his history of Elizabeth in his favor. And we know 362 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 2: this from Camden's correspondence because Camden he sometimes gets a 363 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: bad press, but actually he was a meticulous historian, and 364 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: he was very careful about his sources. He really did 365 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 2: strive to produce a faithful account, faithful to truth. In fact, 366 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 2: he included an ode to truth in this book. And 367 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: what it was clear that he was being made to 368 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: do was to alter it, amend it, rewrite it on 369 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 2: James's orders. And he actually complained to a friend King 370 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: James must need revise it himself. And many things were 371 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: altered and many things were crossed out, and so he's 372 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 2: getting these installments that he sends to James back like 373 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 2: covered in the equivalent of kind of read ink, you know, 374 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: and James is saying, no, no, you need to alter that. 375 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 2: And some bits were so sensitive then rather than just 376 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: cross them out, Camden's pasted over his original text, and 377 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 2: they include the Valentine Thomas controversy, interestingly, which Camden had 378 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: told in full in his original part, but now on 379 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 2: James's orders, rather than James having been suspected of wanting 380 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: to assassinate Elizabeth. That was changed to James just felt 381 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: some ill affection towards Elizabeth, so the whole thing was sanitized. Mary, 382 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: Queen of Scott's was totally rewritten. She'd been presented as 383 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 2: a traitor in the first draft. Now, of course she's 384 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: mother of the king, so she's much more positively written. 385 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: But the most crucial bit, and the discovery that inspired 386 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 2: my whole book, was what happened on Elizabeth's deathbed, And 387 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: what the research has found was that in William Camden's 388 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 2: original draft of this deathbed scene, he, like the couple 389 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: of other eyewitnesses we have records of, said that Elizabeth 390 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 2: just died without naming anybody her heir. And then he's 391 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: been made to go back on James's orders and rewrite 392 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: it so that now he says that almost with her 393 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 2: last breath, Elizabeth speaks the words, I will have none 394 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: but the King of Scots to succeed me. And that 395 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: was history rewritten in favor of the one who was 396 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 2: now in power. It's so cynical, it's so shocking, and 397 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: it completely changes everything we thought we knew about the succession, 398 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: and as I said, this kind of smooth, natural transition 399 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 2: from Elizabeth to the absolute odds onsert front runner, who 400 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: was James, sixth of Scotland. 401 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: And was it a smooth transition? 402 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: In fact, it's a great question because again, if you 403 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 2: believe James's pr absolutely by lawful and undoubted succession, the 404 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: proclamation of his reign had been drafted by James's ally 405 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: on Elizabeth Council, Robert Cecil, many weeks before. And really 406 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: I think we should be calling Robert Cecil a kingmaker, 407 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: because that's why James was able to take the throne 408 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 2: in sixty three. He'd made this alliance, this deal with 409 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 2: Robert Cecil, Elizabeth's chief minister, that you know, if you 410 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 2: smoothed my path to the throne, you'll benefit when I'm king. 411 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: And Cecil certainly did. He was made at Lord Salisbury 412 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: and given huge power in James's government. But really, without Cecil, 413 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: I'm not sure James would have been able to claim 414 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,959 Speaker 2: the throne at all. And was it actually as smooth 415 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: as we've been told? Well, we're told a lot about 416 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: the rejoicing of the English people. We're told less about 417 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: some evidence that I uncovered when researching the Stolen Crown, 418 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: which is that there were actually riots in a number 419 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 2: of English cities against the coming in of the Scottish king. 420 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: As they put it, they still saw him as a foreigner, 421 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 2: you know. They didn't want a Stewart on the English throne, 422 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 2: so people did object to it. Some mayors, you know, 423 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: the kind of very high updignitary, refused to declare James 424 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: king even they were ordered to do so, So that 425 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: it wasn't quite as smooth as we've been led to believe. 426 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: And I think it wouldn't have happened at all, as 427 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: I say, if it hadn't been for that very intensive 428 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: groundwork that Robert Cecil had been preparing for a number 429 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 2: of years before Elizabeth's death. 430 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: Is there anything that James did specifically to sort of 431 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: renounce his Scottishness to sort of bolster up his English 432 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: bonafidees as it was. 433 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because very early on in his reign, 434 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 2: almost within days, commissioned a family tree that really bigged 435 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: up his relationship to the Tudors. It's almost like the 436 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 2: Scottish side was kind of left out, and it's like 437 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: this is my English heritage right here, and he kind 438 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: of repeated that in his speeches, always calling to attention 439 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: his close links to the Tudors and how he had 440 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: Tudor blood in his veins, and so yes, he sort 441 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: of went out of his way to make himself seem 442 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 2: more English, but then in his actions he did the 443 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 2: exact opposite. Because it was a very very brief honeymoon 444 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: for James in England, the rejoicing was short lived, and 445 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: actually James quickly lost patients with the people of England. 446 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: He didn't really like the way Elizabeth Court had been run, 447 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: with all of its show and its glamour and its ceremony. 448 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: One of many pieces of advice to James had been 449 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 2: to play the king, you know, put on a good show. 450 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: The people of England like that in their monarch. James thought, 451 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that is pointless and time consuming, 452 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: so instead he locks himself away with just a handful 453 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 2: of male favorites, and of course that causes some consternation 454 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: as well. It's a very brief love affair between James 455 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: and the people of England, and very soon there is 456 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: opposition to James. There's a plot just within weeks of 457 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: his accession followed by another plot, and then, of course 458 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 2: two years later we have the most famous terror plot 459 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 2: in history, certainly in British royal history, and that is 460 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,959 Speaker 2: the Gunpowder plot, led by a group of disaffected Catholics 461 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: who wanted to quote blow the Scottish king to the heavens. 462 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 2: So James is losing control within a really short space 463 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 2: of time of unlawfully inheriting elizabeths throne. 464 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: So despite the fact that he is unfortunately in this 465 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: case Scottish, he was a male heir at this point, 466 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: I believe he had two surviving sons, which also makes 467 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: someone appealing as an heir. It makes a dynasty seem 468 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: like a hes longevity. In your opinion, do you think 469 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: there was another heir that was more appealing. 470 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: Well, you're absolutely right to point out that James came 471 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 2: with already made dynasty. So he had two sons, Henry 472 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: and Charles. In fact, Henry would die young and wouldn't 473 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: make it, but we would have a king Charles the 474 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 2: first and he had a daughter, Elizabeth. Actually did improve 475 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: James's standing. Before Elizabeth died, you know, the people of 476 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 2: England were like, okay, well he might be Scottish, but 477 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 2: there isn't going to be a succession crisis if he 478 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: comes to the throne. However, there were others, and if 479 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: we're purely talking about the law, who would have been 480 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 2: the next lawful successor to Elizabeth? It would have been 481 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 2: the eldest son of Lady Catherine Gray. That was according 482 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,479 Speaker 2: to the succession Acts of Henry the eighth and his 483 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 2: last Wood and Testament, both of which still stood in 484 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 2: sixteen oh three when Elizabeth died. We would have had 485 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: a King Edward the seventh in sixteen oh three rather 486 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: than in nineteen oh one when Queen Victoria died. So yeah, 487 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: Edward Seymour As I said that the eldest son of 488 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 2: Lady Catherine Gray, he was the next legal successor after. 489 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: And he was a descendant of Henry the Eighth's younger. 490 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 2: Sister, exactly so, his younger sister Mary, whom Henry the 491 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: eighth had actively favored when it came to the succession. 492 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: But Elizabeth not so much. Elizabeth hated the sisters of 493 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: Lady Jane Gray. She persecuted them, she imprisoned both of them, 494 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: made their lives a misery. And it was said, although 495 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: again this is Camden, that when she was on her 496 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: deathbed and Edward Seymour's name was mentioned. She ranted that 497 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 2: she would have no rascal on her throne, and everybody 498 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 2: understood that by rascals she meant Edward Seymour. But again 499 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: that's in Camden's rewrite, so maybe it says more about 500 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: how threatened James felt about his close rival. 501 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: It seems a little bit reading your book that King 502 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth opened something of a can of worms 503 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: by passing laws that allowed him personally as king, to 504 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,479 Speaker 1: determine what the line of succession would be. 505 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: Oh what account of worms? That was. Absolutely it did, 506 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: because until then it had been pretty straightforward in the 507 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 2: English succession. The crown passed to the eldest legitimate male 508 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 2: heir in the absence of them, and if they really 509 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: couldn't find anybody else, it would go to the female heirs. 510 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: But Henry, mostly thanks to the fact he married so 511 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 2: many times, he kept changing the succession in favor of 512 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 2: his latest wife and their child. Of course, he only 513 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 2: ever had one child by any of his wives three 514 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 2: children in total from six marriages, so one son and 515 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 2: two daughters he had. But it did introduce this element 516 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 2: of uncertainty the fact that Henry used a bit of 517 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: personal choice in the succession, and that went further still 518 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: when his son Edward inherited his throne in fifteen forty seven, 519 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 2: when Henry died, because Edward only reigned for six years, 520 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: he was on his deathbed aged fifteen, and he was 521 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: persuaded by his powerful advisers to change the succession. 522 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: Again, well, if his dad could do it, he could 523 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: do it too. 524 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 2: Yes, he's tars to do it. He doesn't want his 525 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: sister Mary on the throne because Edward is Protestant, and 526 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: of course Mary the First as we now know her, 527 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: Bloody Mary is Catholic. And also his advisors persuade him 528 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: that he really should disinherit Elizabeth as well because she's illegitimate, 529 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 2: And so Edward changes the succession in favor of his cousin, 530 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 2: very much a Protestant, lady Jane Gray. But again that's 531 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: destabilizing because if it doesn't just go on blood alone, 532 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: then there's all sorts of choice, There are all sorts 533 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: of candidates, and who knows who's going to win the 534 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: race for the throne. 535 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: So I'm asking you to speculate a bit here in 536 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: your opinion if Elizabeth had not made this deathbed declaration 537 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: in favor of James, and if Camden had not written it, 538 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: and the people hadn't understood that that was the case, 539 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: what do you think might have happened. 540 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 2: Well, I think this lie that began the Stuart dynasty 541 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: would have devastating consequences. Despite Camden, I should say that Camden, 542 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 2: you know, good historian that he was, he kind of 543 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: had the last laugh because although James had made him 544 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: falsify history, he took his time over it. So you 545 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 2: see the correspondence and James is like breathing down his 546 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 2: next saying, come on, finish this book, and Camden's like, well, no, 547 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: I just need to do a few more tweets. He 548 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 2: delays publication until sixteen fifteen. 549 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: Oh, so James has already been king for a good 550 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: long while. 551 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: And that's only the first installment that only goes up 552 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: to the execution of Mary, Queen of Scott's. The second installment, 553 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: that includes the succession, is only published in sixteen twenty five, 554 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: by which time both Camden and James are dead. So actually, 555 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,239 Speaker 2: this rewrite doesn't help James in his lifetime, but it 556 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 2: has helped him in the centuries afterwards to be seen 557 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 2: as the rightful king, and it did help his son, Charles, 558 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: who came to the throne, you know, uncontested, because by 559 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: then people believed that Elizabeth had named his father her successor. 560 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 2: So that got Charles's reign off to a good start, 561 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 2: but of course it didn't continue. 562 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: The end of charles reign wouldn't be a good ending. 563 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: No, not at all. So I think the truth will 564 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 2: out and there had been this clash between the Stuarts 565 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 2: and the Tudor way of doing things, because if only 566 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: James had listened to Elizabeth's advice, I think things would 567 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 2: have turned out very differently. I think that is the 568 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: intriguing What if if he had taken on board advice 569 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: such as play the king, such as work in partnership 570 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 2: with parliament, not against it, don't just use it to 571 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: impose your royal will. And of course Charles the first 572 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: did exactly the latter, and he just dissolved parliament whenever 573 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: it disagreed with him, until Parliament rose up against him 574 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 2: and plunged England into a bitter series of civil wars 575 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 2: that resulted in the execution of the king. The end 576 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: of the monarchy. It's so intriguing to trace it all 577 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 2: back to, as I say, that lie that started the 578 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: Stuart dynasty in England. 579 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: The moral of the story is we should have listened 580 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: to Elizabeth the First. 581 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 2: It's always the moral of my story. I actually wrote 582 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 2: a piece for written BBC History Magazine and maybe your 583 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: listeners would like to look it up because it's basically 584 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: life hacks from history and I wrote the life hack 585 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: for Elizabeth the First and the kind of advice that 586 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 2: I tend to follow, among many other pieces of advice 587 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: that you know, Elizabeth left behind in that she was 588 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 2: the mistress of procrastination, you know, just delaying things until 589 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: the right thing became clear. And so she was always 590 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: you know, putting off things like marriage and the succession. 591 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 2: And she just used this very skillfully saying, you know, 592 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: just a woman, I can't make decisions. You're going to 593 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 2: have to go away and give me a moment. And 594 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 2: she used this very deliberate delay tactic time and time again, 595 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 2: and things had a way of working out. So always 596 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 2: we should listen to Elizabeth. That's my number one takeaway 597 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: from her life hacks. 598 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: If you're going to procrastinate, do it right. 599 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 2: Just procrastinate. It's great. 600 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for speaking with us today. Tracy Borman, 601 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: author of the phenomenal new book The Stolen Crown, just 602 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: so readable. If you're a listener of this podcast, I 603 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: think you'll absolutely love it. Thank you again, so so much. 604 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 2: Oh, it's been such a pleasure talking to you again. 605 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 606 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and 607 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is hosted by me 608 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannahswick, 609 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: Courtney Sender, Amy Hit and Julia Milani. The show is 610 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: edited and produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producer rima 611 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: il Kaali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and 612 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 613 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.