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Speaker 1: Pushkin hay Slight Change Listeners. It's Maya this summer. We're

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Speaker 1: revisiting four of your all time favorite episodes. Up next

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Speaker 1: in the series, we hear from an expert on the

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Speaker 1: science of change, Dan Pink. He offers some great insight

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Speaker 1: into how we can change our relationship with regret.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we've done a very good job equipping

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Speaker 2: people with how to deal with negative emotions. I think

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Speaker 2: at some level we've sold them a bill of goods

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Speaker 2: about the need to be positive all the time, And

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Speaker 2: what we should be doing is saying, yeah, have lots

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Speaker 2: of positive emotions, they make life fantastic, but you're going

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Speaker 2: to have some negative emotions. And these negative emotions are adaptive,

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Speaker 2: they're functional if you know how to treat them.

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Speaker 1: That's best selling author Dan Pink, who believes that negative

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Speaker 1: emotions can be a force for good in our lives.

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Speaker 1: Dan is most interested in the emotion of regret, which

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Speaker 1: is the focus of his book The Power of Regret,

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Speaker 1: How looking backward moves Us forward. But it took Dan

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Speaker 1: a while to figure out why regret was such a

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Speaker 1: valuable emotion, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, reading through all these regrets every day here in

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Speaker 2: my office, why was I not more bummed out? I

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Speaker 2: got these people opening up their hearts and telling me

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Speaker 2: the mistakes that they made and how terrible they feel

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Speaker 2: about it. Why did they not bring me down? And

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Speaker 2: I finally, over time, realized that when people tell you

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Speaker 2: what they regret the most, they're telling you what they

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Speaker 2: value the most.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode, how to transform our relationship with regret

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Speaker 1: to live happier and more fulfilling lives, I'm Maya Shunker

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Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show

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Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the

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Speaker 1: face of a big change. So I guess I'll start

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Speaker 1: Dan by talking about how much I loved this very

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Speaker 1: visceral description of regret that you share in your book.

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Speaker 1: You call it the stomach churning feeling that the present

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Speaker 1: would be better, in the future brighter, if only you

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Speaker 1: hadn't chosen so poorly, decided so wrongly, or acted so

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Speaker 1: stupidly in the past. Of all the feelings to study,

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Speaker 1: why did you choose this one to examine in particular?

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Speaker 2: Because my stomach was churning, because I had that emotion

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Speaker 2: and I wasn't sure what to do about it, and

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Speaker 2: at some level. I was at a point in my

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Speaker 2: life where, to my surprise, I had milajehn bye. I

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Speaker 2: had a room to look back, and like many people

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Speaker 2: who look backward, I look backward and I see, Oh,

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Speaker 2: if only I had been kinder, if only I had

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Speaker 2: taken more risks, if only I had worked harder, if

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Speaker 2: only I had done that rather than that. And my

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Speaker 2: stomach was churning in a way that made me want

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Speaker 2: to talk about it. And when I very tenderly began

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Speaker 2: mentioning it to other people, I discovered that everybody wanted

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Speaker 2: to talk about regret, and that our perception of this

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Speaker 2: emotion and what it meant to people was very different

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Speaker 2: from how it lived in people's hearts and heads.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. I think you probably identified there

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Speaker 1: was something counterintuitive we might discover if you were to

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Speaker 1: go down that path. Before we analyze how regret affects

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Speaker 1: our lives, I first want to recognize just how remarkable

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Speaker 1: it is that we as humans are even capable of

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Speaker 1: feeling this thing called regret. I mean, as a cognitive scientist,

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Speaker 1: I'm always marveling at human abilities, but this one, in

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Speaker 1: particular kind of knoster socks off. You say that our

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Speaker 1: ability to feel regret depends on at least two pretty

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Speaker 1: complex mental abilities. Do you mind painting a picture of

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Speaker 1: what those are?

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Speaker 2: Sure? The two mental abilities are time travel and storytelling.

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Speaker 2: So time travel is essential in our ability to experience

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Speaker 2: regret if we think about this, So suppose that somebody

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Speaker 2: has a regret about marrying Steve rather than Bob. I

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Speaker 2: married Steve, and I should have married Bob if only

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Speaker 2: I'd marry Bob. All right, so think about that. So

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Speaker 2: what are you doing. You're getting into a time machine

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Speaker 2: and you're traveling back in time to when you first

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Speaker 2: got to know Steve and Bob. Now that itself is

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Speaker 2: pretty amazing that we can travel through time in our heads.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing in itself. But wait, there's more, because what

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Speaker 2: we do is we go back and imagine what happened,

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Speaker 2: but then rewrite the story, essentially negate what really happened,

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Speaker 2: overwrite it with our own tail. Hey I'm gonna marry Bob.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing too. But wait, there's more, because then we

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Speaker 2: get back in our time machine and come back to

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Speaker 2: the present, and suddenly the present looks entirely different because

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Speaker 2: we've reconfigured the past. And so that's an incredible cognitive ability.

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Speaker 2: This the ability of counterfactual thinking. Counterfactual thinking is when

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Speaker 2: we imagine a situation that runs counter to the actual facts.

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Speaker 2: So counterfactual thinking can be it rained yesterday, if only

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Speaker 2: it were sonny yesterday, that's counterfactual thinking. How would my

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Speaker 2: life be different if it was sunny yesterday. It's one

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Speaker 2: reason why I mean, as a cognitive scientist, you know

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Speaker 2: that little kids can't do this. Their brains are not

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Speaker 2: fully developed enough to do this kind of processing. So

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Speaker 2: I love to.

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Speaker 1: Dig into the fact that kids can't do this because

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Speaker 1: it is fascinating from the child development perspective.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. So this is an experiment done by a couple

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Speaker 2: of developmental psychologists and what they did is they told

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Speaker 2: kids a story about two boys. One was named Bob

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Speaker 2: and one was named David. Now these boys live near

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Speaker 2: each other, and each day Bob and David would each

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Speaker 2: ride their bikes to school and they would take a

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Speaker 2: path that went around a pond. Now can go around

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Speaker 2: the right side of the pond to get to school,

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Speaker 2: or you can go around the left side of the

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Speaker 2: pond to get to school, and both paths are equidistant.

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Speaker 2: It's the same length, the same amount of time. But

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Speaker 2: every day Bob goes around the right side of the

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Speaker 2: pond and David goes around the left side of the pond. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So what they tell the kids is this is the

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Speaker 2: following story. One morning, Bob rides around the right side

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Speaker 2: of the pond, but unbeknownst to Bob, a tree has fallen,

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Speaker 2: smacking itself into the center of the path, and Bob

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Speaker 2: collides with the branch. He falls off the bike, He

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Speaker 2: hurts himself and is late to school. The left side

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Speaker 2: of the path was fine. Now that same morning, David

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Speaker 2: who gets up, I guess a little bit later, David

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Speaker 2: who always takes the left side of the pond, He says, no,

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Speaker 2: what today, I want to take the right side of

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Speaker 2: the pond. David also hits the branch, he gets thrown

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Speaker 2: off his bike, He's injured two and he is late

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Speaker 2: for school. And so the question that these researchers asked

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Speaker 2: these young children is who would be more upset about

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Speaker 2: riding along the path that went around the right side

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Speaker 2: of the pond. Bob who does it every day, David

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Speaker 2: who just did it that one day, or would they

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Speaker 2: feel the same? So five year olds said, Ah, that'd

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Speaker 2: be the same. They'd be totally bummed out because they

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Speaker 2: hit a branch and fell off their bike and were

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Speaker 2: late to school. But seven year olds realized that it

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Speaker 2: was actually David who would be more upset because he

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Speaker 2: deviated from his ordinary path.

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Speaker 1: He'd be more likely to feel regret in this case.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, David would feel more regret because a seven year

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Speaker 2: old is saying, if only David had taken the left

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Speaker 2: side of the pond, he would have avoided that branch

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Speaker 2: and gotten to school safely and on time. You know,

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Speaker 2: five year olds and seven year olds are only two

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Speaker 2: years apart, but a lot goes on in that time

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Speaker 2: for these young brains to acquire the strength and the

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Speaker 2: muscularity to perform this kind of mental trapeze act that

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Speaker 2: we're talking about, where you're swinging back and forth between

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Speaker 2: past and present, between reality and imagination. That's a very

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Speaker 2: hard act to perform, and you need the muscle memory,

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Speaker 2: you need the strength, you need the dexterity. And that

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Speaker 2: happens somewhere probably between the ages of five and seven.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it's so funny. Literally, in this moment, I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling starstruck by our own minds so parted me while

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Speaker 1: I just have a moment.

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Speaker 2: It's incredible, though I'm such a nerd. I'm with you,

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Speaker 2: I'm with you one hundred persons actually just astonished she

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Speaker 2: seeing what our minds can do. I mean it should, honestly,

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Speaker 2: it should take our breath away. That is when I

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Speaker 2: was reading the neuroscience and the cognitive science, It's like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: our brains are awesome. They're a little glitchy in certain circumstances,

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Speaker 2: but it's a pretty good piece of equipment. You know.

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Speaker 2: I'm not returning it to the factory.

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Speaker 1: I've said. I've said before I feel like we as

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Speaker 1: humans are so hard on ourselves, but actually we should

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Speaker 1: just feel like we're crushing it every moment of our existence,

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Speaker 1: just by virtue of existing and doing like ninety nine

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Speaker 1: percent of the things we do on any given day.

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Speaker 1: So you know who needs celebrity sightings? Dan, When you've

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Speaker 1: got the human brain, That's what I say, you can get.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely to just pull up your just pull up your

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Speaker 2: your MRI. You'll and you'll see that's that's your celebrity

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Speaker 2: siding for the day.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Okay, So to summarize the Bob and

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Speaker 1: David study, we see that five year olds are able

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Speaker 1: to identify, of course, that Bob and David are both

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Speaker 1: experiencing negative emotions. Right. They're probably feeling sad, there might

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Speaker 1: be a little concerned about the bruises they have. Then

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Speaker 1: there's this huge developmental milestone where for the first time

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Speaker 1: we seem to understand intuitively that David would feel more

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Speaker 1: of this thing called regret than Bob would. And so

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Speaker 1: with that in mind, you know, there's lots of negative

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Speaker 1: emotions we feel, and one of the things you do

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Speaker 1: in your book is you differentiate regret from some of

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Speaker 1: these other negative emotions. I'm curious to hear what you

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Speaker 1: see as the necessary ingredients for feeling regret as opposed

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Speaker 1: to another kind of negative emotion.

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Speaker 2: What makes you we're very different or two things. It's

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Speaker 2: comparison and it is blame essentially, So with regret, we

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Speaker 2: compare one set of circumstances to another set of circumstances.

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Speaker 2: So regret doesn't exist in absolute terms. It exists in

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Speaker 2: comparative terms. And so we're comparing one set of circumstances

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Speaker 2: and set of facts to another. Imagine set of facts.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps even more important, is blame. Regret is your fault, right,

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Speaker 2: and that makes it different from other kinds of emotions.

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Speaker 2: It makes it different from, say, the emotion of disappointment.

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Speaker 2: I could feel disappointed that it's raining today, but I

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Speaker 2: can't feel regret that it's raining because I don't control

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Speaker 2: the skies. I can feel regret if I leave the

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Speaker 2: house without an umbrella and I know that it's raining

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Speaker 2: because that's on me. But regret and disappointment, the big

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Speaker 2: demarcation is agency. Regret is your fault.

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Speaker 1: And for those listening who are as self critical as

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Speaker 1: I am, this is also why regret stings so much,

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Speaker 1: right because of this agency component. It just makes it

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Speaker 1: such a painful feeling.

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Speaker 2: Right because you can't pin it on somebody else.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, now that we have a better handle on

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Speaker 1: what regret is and the conditions that must be satisfied

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Speaker 1: in order for us to feel regret, let's talk for

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Speaker 1: a bit about how common it is for us to

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Speaker 1: experience regret. Oh.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so. There's research in social psychology from years ago

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Speaker 2: showing that in people's everyday conversation, the negative emotion that

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Speaker 2: people express the most in everyday conversations is regret. It was,

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Speaker 2: in this particular piece of research, the second most common

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Speaker 2: emotion of any kind that they expressed, even after love.

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Speaker 2: And one of the exciting things about this project was

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Speaker 2: I was able to do some research of my own,

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Speaker 2: able to conduct a very large quantitative survey, the largest

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Speaker 2: public opinion survey of American attitudes about regret ever conducted,

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Speaker 2: and I ask people a bunch of questions, including the

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Speaker 2: question how often do you look back on your life

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Speaker 2: and wish you had done things differently? Now? I agonized

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Speaker 2: over the wording of that question because I wanted to

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Speaker 2: describe regrets without saying it yeah, but I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to use the R word, because there's such a stigma

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Speaker 2: attached to the R word. And what we found is

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Speaker 2: that eighty two percent of the US population did this

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Speaker 2: thing at least occasionally. We have this performed idea that

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Speaker 2: I have no regrets. I always look forward, I never

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Speaker 2: looked backward. But the percentge of people who said they

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Speaker 2: never do this was one percent.

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Speaker 1: You know, in this culture, especially Western culture, where it's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's all about positive emotions, all about positive feelings,

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Speaker 1: live with no regrets is the anthem that people are

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Speaker 1: just screaming from the rooftops. One thing that really landed

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Speaker 1: with me when reading your book, as you say, to

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Speaker 1: live is to accumulate at least some regret. It is

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Speaker 1: almost definitionally the case that if one has lived, they

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Speaker 1: will feel regret. And I think there's actually a common

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Speaker 1: element to that message.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I'll see that point and raise you

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Speaker 2: and say that if you're feeling regret, it's actually a

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Speaker 2: good sign. It's like, oh, my cognitive machinery is working.

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Speaker 2: I am experiencing regret. If you don't experience a regret, truly,

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Speaker 2: it's a sign of a potentially grave problem.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting, Dan, because when we engage in

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Speaker 1: mental time travel and counterfactual thinking, we don't have to

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Speaker 1: imagine how things could have gone better, right. We could

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Speaker 1: instead imagine how things could have gone far worse. But

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Speaker 1: what's interesting is that we as humans have a very

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Speaker 1: strong bias towards the former, which helps explain why we

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Speaker 1: so often regret things. And you capture this point really

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Speaker 1: nicely when you talk about framing a thought in terms

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Speaker 1: of at least versus if only yes.

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Speaker 2: So when we think about counterfactual thinking, there are two

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Speaker 2: different varieties of it. One is an upward counterfactual, So

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Speaker 2: you imagine how things could have been better. If only

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Speaker 2: I had become an accountant rather than an engineer, everything

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Speaker 2: in my life would be fantastic. So you imagine a

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Speaker 2: better scenario. Upward kind of factuals if only make us

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Speaker 2: feel worse, but they can help us do better. But

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Speaker 2: there's another kind of counterfactual, a downward counterfactual, where you

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Speaker 2: imagine how things could have become worse. And so you say, oh,

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't have married Edward, but at least I have

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Speaker 2: these two great kids. You find the silver lining in

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Speaker 2: that What that does is that minimizes the sting. It

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Speaker 2: makes you feel better, but it doesn't help you necessarily

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Speaker 2: do better. And I think what's curious is that we're

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Speaker 2: much more inclined to do the counterfactual thinking that makes

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Speaker 2: us feel worse. Our brains are built for progress and efficiency,

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Speaker 2: and they know that those upward count of factuals. So

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Speaker 2: if onlis while they hurt, they're going to make us

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Speaker 2: better if we do it right.

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Speaker 1: There's a really interesting study around Olympians and their response

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Speaker 1: to winning different types of medals that I think illustrates this.

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Speaker 1: At least, if only kind of thinking, very well, do

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Speaker 1: you mind sharing that study?

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Speaker 2: This is a really really interesting study of Olympic medalists.

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Speaker 2: And what they did is they showed a group of

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Speaker 2: participants photographs of medalists on the Olympic platform, the gold

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Speaker 2: medal winner, the silver medal winner, the bronze medal winner,

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Speaker 2: except they blocked out the actual medals that these olympians won,

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Speaker 2: and they had these participants who didn't know what the

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Speaker 2: researchers were studying, evaluate how happy the people looked, and

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Speaker 2: they ranked the olympians based on how happy they were.

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Speaker 2: And so as we would expect, the person who won

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Speaker 2: the gold medal look the happiest, which makes sense, right,

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Speaker 2: But then there was a bit of a surprise. The

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Speaker 2: person who was the next happiest looking was the bronze medalist,

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Speaker 2: and the silver medalist often didn't look all that happy,

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Speaker 2: which is weird, right, You just want a silver medal

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Speaker 2: in the Olympics. You should be pumped too, And except

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Speaker 2: they weren't. The bronze medalists were beaming. The bronze medalists,

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Speaker 2: in some cases we're looking as happy as the gold medalist.

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Speaker 2: And the way we explain this riddle is through counterfactual thinking.

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Speaker 2: The bronze medalist is doing an at least a downward counterfactual.

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Speaker 2: They're imagining how things could have been worse. The bronze

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Speaker 2: medals is saying, I won a bronze medal, which is

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Speaker 2: great because at least it wasn't like that shmow finished fourth,

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Speaker 2: who's going home with no hardware. But the silver medals

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Speaker 2: is saying, if only I had there a swimmer reached

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Speaker 2: for the wall a little bit earlier, if only I

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Speaker 2: had kicked a little harder, I would be wearing that

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Speaker 2: gold medal instead of this crappy silver metal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, naturally, regret gets a really bad wrap, right,

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Speaker 1: because as you've just described with that swimmer, it's just

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Speaker 1: such an unpleasant feeling. But you make the case stand,

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Speaker 1: and I think a very convincing case that we should

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Speaker 1: see regret of something we should embrace and learn from.

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Speaker 1: And so, what are some of the positive effects that

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Speaker 1: you feel regret can have when we engage with it

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Speaker 1: in the right way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the key is that we have to engage

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Speaker 2: with it in the right way. I think too often

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Speaker 2: we're kind of conditioned to ignore regrets. Oh, it's negative,

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Speaker 2: don't even think about it. Just move on, look forward,

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Speaker 2: don't look back. That's a bad idea, but sometimes I

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Speaker 2: think if we're not equipped to deal with it properly,

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Speaker 2: we get captured by our regrets. We wallow on them,

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Speaker 2: we ruminate on them. Yeah, what we should be doing

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Speaker 2: is listening to our regrets, confronting them, using them as signals,

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Speaker 2: as data, as information. And when we do that, there

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Speaker 2: are many many benefits. For instance, there's research in social

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Speaker 2: psychology showing that it can help make us better negotiators.

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Speaker 2: You do a negotiation, you think about what you regret

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Speaker 2: in that negotiation, you often do better in the next one.

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Speaker 2: It can help us become better problem solvers, better strategists.

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Speaker 2: There's even evidence that it can actually help us a

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Speaker 2: deepen sense of meaning in our lives. And so when

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Speaker 2: we treat this emotion properly, and that's a big if

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Speaker 2: we can use it as an engine for moving forward.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, regrets really serving as a catalyst here, right, for

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Speaker 1: actually driving meaningful action.

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Speaker 2: Sure, And I think what's I think what's puzzling here

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Speaker 2: is to people is that you know, a solution in

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Speaker 2: some cases is to invite this negative emotion, not to

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Speaker 2: bat it away. Not to ignore it, but in some

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Speaker 2: sense to invite it. And that seems a little counterintuitive

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Speaker 2: because you're inviting something that feels bad. And the thing

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Speaker 2: about regret is that regret can clarify what we value

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Speaker 2: and instruct us on how to do better, and people

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Speaker 2: like that. But it comes with discomfort, It comes with

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Speaker 2: some amount of pain, and people don't like that. But

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Speaker 2: that's not the deal. It's a package deal. You got

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Speaker 2: to have both. That's right, and arguably I think that

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Speaker 2: pain and discomfort is the source of the clarification and

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Speaker 2: the instruction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's signaling to your brain that you've acted in

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Speaker 1: a way that might conflict with value for example. Yep.

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Speaker 1: There's also research you talk about in your book that

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Speaker 1: when we engage with regret in a meaningful, constructive way,

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Speaker 1: it can also increase our performance. Do you mind talking

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Speaker 1: about some of the studies in this area, sure.

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Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of research in experimental psychology

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Speaker 2: where you give people puzzled, especially anagrams, and what it

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Speaker 2: shows in general is that you put people into a

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Speaker 2: problem solving situation, they solve the problem, and then you

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Speaker 2: ask them to reflect on what they regret doing or

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Speaker 2: not doing. In that problem solving exercise. Again, you're inviting

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Speaker 2: this negative emotion. They often do better in the next

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Speaker 2: round because they felt bad. That bad feeling is a

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Speaker 2: signal to the brain saying huh, maybe I should do

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Speaker 2: things differently. It's a form of instruction. And so if

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Speaker 2: you think about those puzzle solvers, if they actually subscribe

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Speaker 2: to the no regrets philosophy, they said, oh, I screwed

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Speaker 2: up this anagram. I did it slowly, I didn't get

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Speaker 2: the right answer. But no regrets. I'm always positive, I

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Speaker 2: never look backward. They're not going to get any better

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Speaker 2: at performance on a whole array of problem solving skills.

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Speaker 1: And how can regret deep in our sense of meaning?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, what it does in many cases is

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Speaker 2: that when we think about counterfactually we at some level

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Speaker 2: we sometimes will appreciate what we have, which deepens our

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Speaker 2: sense of meaning. But it can also help clarify what

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Speaker 2: we actually value in our lives. So there's one person

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Speaker 2: I wrote about who regretted not spending time with their grandparents.

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Speaker 2: Every winter, the grandparents would come and visit her, and

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Speaker 2: she hated it as a she thought they were intruding.

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Speaker 2: She didn't want to talk to them, she would stand offish,

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Speaker 2: and when her grandparents passed away, she regretted it because

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Speaker 2: she missed hearing their stories and hearing what their lives

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Speaker 2: were about. And it actually prompted her to collect her

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Speaker 2: own parents' stories, because that feeling of regret spurred at

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Speaker 2: least a quest for meaning and understanding of her own

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Speaker 2: life and her own story.

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Speaker 1: I want to dig in a bit to this notion

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Speaker 1: of doing regret right, because I think this is so important.

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Speaker 1: We want to make sure that we are not ignoring

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Speaker 1: the negative feeling, not ignoring the regret. We also want

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Speaker 1: to make sure that we're not marinating in it, We're

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Speaker 1: not ruminating in this unproductive way. But just as importantly,

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Speaker 1: we need to draw the right conclusion from the regret.

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Speaker 1: And we shouldn't code a regret as something that reflects

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Speaker 1: this deep underlying flaw in our character and our personality. Instead,

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Speaker 1: we should evaluate that behavior in isolation. Right, It's just

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Speaker 1: a reflection of a behavior in a particular moment of time,

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Speaker 1: And we shouldn't overgeneralize, which we as humans so often do,

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Speaker 1: especially again hypercritical people. Oh my god, this must mean

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Speaker 1: that I am a bad person. This must mean that

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Speaker 1: I'm a terrible decision maker or what have you.

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Speaker 2: That is one of the secrets to process and regret effectively.

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Speaker 2: But I also think it's one of the secrets to

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Speaker 2: leading a life where you're not torturing yourself. We say

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Speaker 2: that if I made a mistake, I'm a bad person,

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Speaker 2: rather than I did a stupid thing, And you're always

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Speaker 2: better off evaluating the behavior rather than making some kind

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Speaker 2: of broader assessment of the person. So there's a temporal

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Speaker 2: aspect of it as well. You have to understand that

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Speaker 2: any mistake that you make, any screw up, any regret,

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Speaker 2: any blunder, is a moment in your life, not the

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Speaker 2: full measure of your life. We're willing to make universal

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Speaker 2: attributions about our entire lives based on a moment, always

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Speaker 2: a negative moment, and essentially neglect the other ninety nine

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Speaker 2: nine nine nine percent of our lives and our evaluation.

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Speaker 2: Don't do that. That's a recipe for that's a recipe

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Speaker 2: for unhappiness. And you know, when you explain this to people,

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Speaker 2: they get it, and if you coach them, they can

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Speaker 2: stop doing that. The problem is is that I think

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Speaker 2: it's a bigger problem is that I don't think we've

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Speaker 2: done a very good job equipping people with how to

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Speaker 2: deal with negative emotions. I think at some level we've

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Speaker 2: sold them a bill of goods about the need to

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Speaker 2: be positive all the time, and what we should be

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Speaker 2: doing is saying, yeah, have lots of positive emotions. Positive

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Speaker 2: emotions are great, they make life fantastic. But you're going

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Speaker 2: to have some negative emotions. And these negative emotions are adaptive,

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Speaker 2: they're functional if you know how to treat them.

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Speaker 1: When we're back from the break, Dan teaches us how

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Speaker 1: we should treat our regrets and why regrets about long

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Speaker 1: lost romances and misjob opportunities are far more similar than

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Speaker 1: we might think, and I come in with some hot

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Speaker 1: takes about whether we're maybe putting too much weight on

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Speaker 1: our deathbed regrets. We'll be back in a moment with

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Speaker 1: a slight change of plans. As Dan Pink was researching regret,

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Speaker 1: he first wanted to learn what people tend to regret,

431
00:24:27,796 --> 00:24:30,836
Speaker 1: so he launched the World Regret Survey and collected tens

432
00:24:30,876 --> 00:24:33,716
Speaker 1: of thousands of regrets from people all over the world.

433
00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:38,956
Speaker 1: Researchers have previously sorted regret into specific life categories like

434
00:24:39,236 --> 00:24:43,516
Speaker 1: romance regrets or education regrets. But when Dan analyzed the

435
00:24:43,556 --> 00:24:47,116
Speaker 1: results of his survey, he realized these categories weren't telling

436
00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:47,956
Speaker 1: the full story.

437
00:24:49,036 --> 00:24:51,596
Speaker 2: What I found is that when you listen to what

438
00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:55,756
Speaker 2: people are saying, what matters is not the domain of life.

439
00:24:55,796 --> 00:24:58,876
Speaker 2: It's something else going on just beneath the surface. And

440
00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:02,636
Speaker 2: the easiest way to make that clear is with an example.

441
00:25:03,156 --> 00:25:05,916
Speaker 2: I was shocked by how many people who went to college,

442
00:25:05,956 --> 00:25:10,716
Speaker 2: especially in America, regret not STUF being abroad. It blew

443
00:25:10,756 --> 00:25:13,156
Speaker 2: my mind. And the reason they didn't study abroad is that, oh,

444
00:25:13,196 --> 00:25:14,916
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's kind of risky. I'm not sure

445
00:25:14,956 --> 00:25:17,036
Speaker 2: I want to do that. And I was surprised by

446
00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:19,596
Speaker 2: how salient that regret was. And then there were lots

447
00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:21,796
Speaker 2: of people all over the world who had a regret

448
00:25:21,836 --> 00:25:25,676
Speaker 2: that basically went like this, X years ago. There was

449
00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:28,636
Speaker 2: someone who I really liked. I wanted to ask them

450
00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:30,756
Speaker 2: out on a date, but I was too chicken to

451
00:25:30,756 --> 00:25:33,476
Speaker 2: do that, and I've regretted it ever since. Okay, that's

452
00:25:33,476 --> 00:25:35,596
Speaker 2: a romance regret. So we've got an education regret. We've

453
00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:37,956
Speaker 2: got a romance regret. Then I have lots of people

454
00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:41,316
Speaker 2: all over the place who say, oh, I always wanted

455
00:25:41,356 --> 00:25:43,396
Speaker 2: to start a business rather than staying in this dead

456
00:25:43,476 --> 00:25:45,596
Speaker 2: end job. But I didn't have the guts to do that,

457
00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:48,276
Speaker 2: and now I regret it. That's a career regret. But

458
00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:50,436
Speaker 2: to my mind, those are all the same regret. They're

459
00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:53,516
Speaker 2: in different domains of life, but they share a common root,

460
00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:55,236
Speaker 2: and at the common root is this, you're at a

461
00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:57,716
Speaker 2: juncture in your life. You can play it safe or

462
00:25:57,716 --> 00:26:02,356
Speaker 2: you can take the chance. And most people regret not

463
00:26:02,396 --> 00:26:04,196
Speaker 2: taking the chance. Not all the time. There are people

464
00:26:04,436 --> 00:26:06,996
Speaker 2: who took the chance and regret it because things went

465
00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:08,956
Speaker 2: south on them. But for every one of those, there

466
00:26:08,956 --> 00:26:12,316
Speaker 2: are dozens and dozens and dozens who have the opposite regrets.

467
00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:15,316
Speaker 2: So that's one of the four core regrets, boldness regrets,

468
00:26:15,396 --> 00:26:17,676
Speaker 2: if only I'd taken the chance, And let's.

469
00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:19,796
Speaker 1: Stick into boldness of it, because this one's really interesting.

470
00:26:20,716 --> 00:26:22,356
Speaker 1: You talk about the fact that when we're in our

471
00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:25,836
Speaker 1: twenties right, what we would call in action regrets, so

472
00:26:25,916 --> 00:26:29,036
Speaker 1: things that we didn't do and action regrets regretting things

473
00:26:29,076 --> 00:26:32,556
Speaker 1: we did do are roughly the same in number, but

474
00:26:32,876 --> 00:26:36,316
Speaker 1: by the time we hit fifty, in action regrets are

475
00:26:36,316 --> 00:26:39,676
Speaker 1: twice as likely to be felt than before. And help

476
00:26:39,676 --> 00:26:42,876
Speaker 1: me understand why it is that as we age, we

477
00:26:43,636 --> 00:26:46,676
Speaker 1: increase the ratio of the things we regret not having

478
00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:47,956
Speaker 1: done than the things we have done.

479
00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:50,676
Speaker 2: I think it's an interesting question. I'm not sure we

480
00:26:50,796 --> 00:26:52,836
Speaker 2: know the full answer to that, but I think that

481
00:26:52,876 --> 00:26:57,796
Speaker 2: we can speculate certain kinds of action regrets. We can

482
00:26:58,236 --> 00:27:00,916
Speaker 2: find the silver lining it. We can do it. At least,

483
00:27:01,276 --> 00:27:05,636
Speaker 2: we can say, oh, I shouldn't have moved to Houston,

484
00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:08,516
Speaker 2: but at least there is in a state in cup techs,

485
00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:12,476
Speaker 2: so you can find the silver lining in that. The

486
00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:15,516
Speaker 2: other thing is that certain kinds of action regrets we

487
00:27:15,596 --> 00:27:18,996
Speaker 2: can undo. If we fullied somebody, maybe we can make

488
00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:21,476
Speaker 2: amends and make an apology. If we've stolen from somebody,

489
00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:24,436
Speaker 2: maybe we can make restitution. I have one guy who

490
00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:27,596
Speaker 2: I wrote about who got a tattoo that said no regrets,

491
00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:31,116
Speaker 2: decided that he didn't like it and decided to have

492
00:27:31,156 --> 00:27:34,516
Speaker 2: his tattoo removed. And so we can remove our tattoos.

493
00:27:34,556 --> 00:27:37,396
Speaker 2: So with action regrets, we can make peace with them

494
00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:39,356
Speaker 2: at some level. We can at least them, we can

495
00:27:39,436 --> 00:27:43,556
Speaker 2: undo them. In action regrets, you can't do that. You

496
00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:46,356
Speaker 2: typically can't find it at least, and there's nothing to undo,

497
00:27:46,516 --> 00:27:48,836
Speaker 2: could you haven't done anything? So I think that's a

498
00:27:48,836 --> 00:27:49,636
Speaker 2: big part of it.

499
00:27:50,276 --> 00:27:54,116
Speaker 1: You know, in the research on aging, like Laura Carsonsen's work,

500
00:27:54,116 --> 00:27:57,156
Speaker 1: for example, she finds that as we get older, we

501
00:27:57,236 --> 00:28:01,036
Speaker 1: tend to have fewer anxieties because there's just less future

502
00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:03,916
Speaker 1: to be anxious about. And I do wonder if there's

503
00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:06,836
Speaker 1: a parallel here, which is, as we get older, you know,

504
00:28:06,956 --> 00:28:10,116
Speaker 1: the range of opportunity that lies ahead for us that

505
00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:14,956
Speaker 1: we could potentially explore diminishes pretty considerably, and so that

506
00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:18,356
Speaker 1: might make us lust after past moments when we actually

507
00:28:18,356 --> 00:28:20,756
Speaker 1: did have opportunity but didn't take advantage of it.

508
00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:23,596
Speaker 2: I think that's very plausible. I think that we do

509
00:28:23,676 --> 00:28:25,876
Speaker 2: have a sense that many of us, not all of us,

510
00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:29,036
Speaker 2: have a sense that when we're young, there are boundless opportunities,

511
00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:32,556
Speaker 2: and then at some point, relatively early in our lives,

512
00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:36,316
Speaker 2: we get a bracing reality check.

513
00:28:37,596 --> 00:28:39,796
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've talked about boldness regrets. Do you mind

514
00:28:39,836 --> 00:28:42,836
Speaker 1: talking about the three other categories?

515
00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:46,356
Speaker 2: Sure? So one category is what I call foundation regrets.

516
00:28:46,796 --> 00:28:49,836
Speaker 2: These are regrets that people have where they made small

517
00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:54,516
Speaker 2: decisions or small mistakes early in life, no single one

518
00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:58,996
Speaker 2: of which is consequential, but that accumulate into nasty consequences.

519
00:28:58,996 --> 00:29:01,676
Speaker 2: So a very common one would be I spent too

520
00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:03,516
Speaker 2: much and save too little, and now I'm broke. Now

521
00:29:03,516 --> 00:29:05,396
Speaker 2: I have no money. And the same thing was true

522
00:29:05,396 --> 00:29:08,156
Speaker 2: with health. You know, I didn't exercise, I didn't eat right,

523
00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:10,876
Speaker 2: and I it's not like for one day, I did

524
00:29:10,876 --> 00:29:14,476
Speaker 2: that for years and now I am in ill health

525
00:29:14,556 --> 00:29:17,236
Speaker 2: or woefully out of shape. So foundation regrets are if

526
00:29:17,276 --> 00:29:21,156
Speaker 2: only I'd done the work. Moral regrets are if only

527
00:29:21,236 --> 00:29:23,876
Speaker 2: I'd done the right thing. So you're at a juncture

528
00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:25,396
Speaker 2: in your life. You can take the high road, you

529
00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:27,556
Speaker 2: can take the low road. And when people take the

530
00:29:27,556 --> 00:29:32,436
Speaker 2: low road, not everybody, but most of everybody regrets it

531
00:29:33,156 --> 00:29:35,196
Speaker 2: because I think most of us are good and want

532
00:29:35,196 --> 00:29:37,156
Speaker 2: to be good. And in that category, we had a

533
00:29:37,196 --> 00:29:40,716
Speaker 2: lot of regrets about marital infidelity, a lot of regrets,

534
00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:43,316
Speaker 2: a huge number of regrets about bullying. I couldn't believe

535
00:29:43,316 --> 00:29:45,596
Speaker 2: how many regrets we had about bullying. Morality ends up

536
00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:49,196
Speaker 2: being a little bit more complicated because people have different

537
00:29:49,356 --> 00:29:53,596
Speaker 2: moral taste buds. And then finally are connection regrets. These

538
00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:57,436
Speaker 2: are regrets about relationships, and not only romantic relationships, but

539
00:29:57,476 --> 00:30:00,196
Speaker 2: all the relationships in our lives, and what often happens

540
00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:04,516
Speaker 2: is that these relationships that were intact come apart. And

541
00:30:04,996 --> 00:30:07,996
Speaker 2: what I found is that many of these relationships come

542
00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:12,876
Speaker 2: apart in very uncinematic ways. They just drift apart. And

543
00:30:12,956 --> 00:30:14,956
Speaker 2: what happens is that one person wants to reach out.

544
00:30:15,676 --> 00:30:17,396
Speaker 2: They say, oh, man, I was such good friends with

545
00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:19,316
Speaker 2: Maya ten years ago. I really should reach out and

546
00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:21,956
Speaker 2: say hi to her. And then we say, oh man, no, no, no,

547
00:30:22,316 --> 00:30:24,716
Speaker 2: it's been ten years. That's going to be so awkward,

548
00:30:25,116 --> 00:30:27,956
Speaker 2: and besides, they don't want to hear it. And besides,

549
00:30:27,996 --> 00:30:29,956
Speaker 2: Maya doesn't want to hear for me, she doesn't care.

550
00:30:30,396 --> 00:30:33,716
Speaker 2: And then we wait another few years and then it's like, okay,

551
00:30:33,796 --> 00:30:35,876
Speaker 2: and now it's thirteen years. Oh man, it's even more

552
00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:38,276
Speaker 2: awkward to reach out. That ends up being a colossal

553
00:30:38,316 --> 00:30:41,796
Speaker 2: mistake on both fronts, because it's when we do reach out,

554
00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:44,356
Speaker 2: it's way less awkward than we think, and the other

555
00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:45,756
Speaker 2: side almost always cares.

556
00:30:45,956 --> 00:30:48,676
Speaker 1: I like that there's a signaling here, which is, you know,

557
00:30:48,716 --> 00:30:51,956
Speaker 1: these categories that you've talked about, because we tend to

558
00:30:51,996 --> 00:30:54,316
Speaker 1: regret them. What that teaches us is that those are

559
00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:56,076
Speaker 1: the things we care most about in life.

560
00:30:56,196 --> 00:30:58,436
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that for me, a personal

561
00:30:58,436 --> 00:31:02,556
Speaker 2: puzzle I was trying to resolve, was, you know, reading

562
00:31:02,556 --> 00:31:04,916
Speaker 2: through all these regrets every day here in my office,

563
00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:07,436
Speaker 2: why was I not more bummed out? I got these

564
00:31:07,436 --> 00:31:09,916
Speaker 2: people opening up their hearts and telling me the mistakes

565
00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:11,716
Speaker 2: that they made and how terrible they feel about it.

566
00:31:12,196 --> 00:31:15,556
Speaker 2: Why did they not bring me down? And I finally,

567
00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:19,516
Speaker 2: over time, realized that when people tell you what they

568
00:31:19,516 --> 00:31:21,596
Speaker 2: regret the most, they're telling you what they value the most.

569
00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:24,876
Speaker 2: So it is, as you say, this very powerful signal.

570
00:31:25,076 --> 00:31:27,596
Speaker 2: If you think about all the decisions that any of

571
00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:31,436
Speaker 2: us made today or yesterday, or this week or last week.

572
00:31:31,756 --> 00:31:33,996
Speaker 2: I don't remember half of it. I don't remember most

573
00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:37,276
Speaker 2: of them. But if you remember a decision or an

574
00:31:37,316 --> 00:31:40,996
Speaker 2: indecision from a year ago, or five years ago or

575
00:31:41,076 --> 00:31:44,796
Speaker 2: ten years ago, and it bugs you still, you got

576
00:31:44,796 --> 00:31:47,796
Speaker 2: to pay attention to that. Man, that's a very strong signal.

577
00:31:47,836 --> 00:31:52,076
Speaker 2: That is an airhorn screaming in your psyche telling you

578
00:31:52,116 --> 00:31:54,516
Speaker 2: pay attention to me. It's telling me something, and it's

579
00:31:54,636 --> 00:31:57,036
Speaker 2: what's telling us is this is a signal about what

580
00:31:57,076 --> 00:31:59,956
Speaker 2: you value, and it's a signal about how to do

581
00:31:59,996 --> 00:32:00,756
Speaker 2: better in the future.

582
00:32:01,876 --> 00:32:05,316
Speaker 1: So let's see Dan. I'm listening to this episode and

583
00:32:05,716 --> 00:32:09,036
Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, Okay, Dan's convinced me I need

584
00:32:09,236 --> 00:32:12,716
Speaker 1: to engage with my regret more proactively and also in

585
00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:16,676
Speaker 1: this productive way. What are some strategies that you could

586
00:32:17,036 --> 00:32:19,876
Speaker 1: give me the listener for taking a regret and actually

587
00:32:19,956 --> 00:32:21,596
Speaker 1: turning it into something productive.

588
00:32:22,236 --> 00:32:24,636
Speaker 2: When you have a regret, treat yourself with kindness rather

589
00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:28,516
Speaker 2: than contempt. Recognize that your regrets are part of the

590
00:32:28,596 --> 00:32:31,676
Speaker 2: human condition. That's a big part of it too. We

591
00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:33,756
Speaker 2: have this kind of pluralistic ignorance where we think, oh

592
00:32:33,836 --> 00:32:35,716
Speaker 2: my god, I'm the only person who regrets bullying. I'm

593
00:32:35,756 --> 00:32:39,996
Speaker 2: the only person who regrets being too timid in my choices,

594
00:32:40,196 --> 00:32:42,636
Speaker 2: when in fact, I got a database of nearly twenty

595
00:32:42,636 --> 00:32:45,756
Speaker 2: two thousand people with your exact same regret. Another thing

596
00:32:45,796 --> 00:32:47,796
Speaker 2: that we should do. I think there's a very strong

597
00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:51,276
Speaker 2: argument to make for disclosing our regrets, even if it's

598
00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:54,396
Speaker 2: only in private writing. I actually think the power of disclosure,

599
00:32:54,996 --> 00:32:59,116
Speaker 2: even if we don't disclose it publicly, is a conversion process,

600
00:32:59,356 --> 00:33:03,156
Speaker 2: is in some ways a transmutation process, because emotions, by

601
00:33:03,196 --> 00:33:07,036
Speaker 2: their nature are blobby, They're abstractions, and that's what makes

602
00:33:07,036 --> 00:33:10,396
Speaker 2: positive emotions feel good. It's also what makes negative emotions

603
00:33:10,396 --> 00:33:12,716
Speaker 2: feel bad. And when we write about our negative emotions,

604
00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:16,356
Speaker 2: talk about our negative emotions, we convert these abstractions into

605
00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:19,436
Speaker 2: concrete words, and those are just less menacing and they

606
00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:22,516
Speaker 2: can begin the sense making process and then we move forward.

607
00:33:22,556 --> 00:33:25,036
Speaker 2: It's very important to draw a lesson, to extract a

608
00:33:25,076 --> 00:33:28,276
Speaker 2: lesson from our scrops, from our regrets. The challenge is

609
00:33:28,316 --> 00:33:31,396
Speaker 2: that we're terrible at solving our own problems. We're too

610
00:33:31,436 --> 00:33:33,996
Speaker 2: caught up in the details. And I actually like the

611
00:33:34,036 --> 00:33:38,516
Speaker 2: technique of using our crazily amazing brains ability for time

612
00:33:38,556 --> 00:33:42,396
Speaker 2: travel is essentially having a consultation with the you of

613
00:33:42,476 --> 00:33:45,356
Speaker 2: ten years from now and asking the U of ten

614
00:33:45,436 --> 00:33:47,956
Speaker 2: years from now what you should do, because I think

615
00:33:47,956 --> 00:33:49,916
Speaker 2: we can make a pretty safe bet what the U

616
00:33:49,956 --> 00:33:51,436
Speaker 2: of ten years and now is going to care about

617
00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:52,436
Speaker 2: I want to?

618
00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:55,516
Speaker 1: Okay, So I think I have a broader question, just

619
00:33:55,596 --> 00:33:59,556
Speaker 1: generally about regret, which is why it is we put

620
00:33:59,716 --> 00:34:02,756
Speaker 1: so much weight on regrets that we may feel later

621
00:34:02,796 --> 00:34:06,876
Speaker 1: in life. So there's this proverbial deathbed regret, and people

622
00:34:06,916 --> 00:34:10,356
Speaker 1: often say, well, you know, Dan, when you're on your deathbed,

623
00:34:10,756 --> 00:34:12,916
Speaker 1: are you really going to regret A, aren't you going

624
00:34:12,956 --> 00:34:17,876
Speaker 1: to regret B instead? And that calculus can really influence

625
00:34:17,996 --> 00:34:21,316
Speaker 1: our present day decisions. And I want to challenge this

626
00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:24,156
Speaker 1: thinking a bit because it seems to be grounded in

627
00:34:24,236 --> 00:34:27,796
Speaker 1: the idea that the values we express at the end

628
00:34:27,796 --> 00:34:31,676
Speaker 1: of our lives somehow represent a truer or more accurate

629
00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:35,116
Speaker 1: expression of either what we care about or what we

630
00:34:35,276 --> 00:34:39,196
Speaker 1: ought to care about. Right it's prescriptive, and this way

631
00:34:39,196 --> 00:34:43,076
Speaker 1: of thinking implies that there is just one constant, true

632
00:34:43,116 --> 00:34:45,956
Speaker 1: set of things that we ought to care about. And

633
00:34:46,236 --> 00:34:48,476
Speaker 1: another way to think about it, a different framing is

634
00:34:48,476 --> 00:34:52,636
Speaker 1: that we are people whose values naturally change and evolve

635
00:34:52,636 --> 00:34:55,596
Speaker 1: over time. And if you take that view, then there's

636
00:34:55,636 --> 00:34:59,036
Speaker 1: no obvious reason why we should privilege the values of

637
00:34:59,076 --> 00:35:01,276
Speaker 1: future Maya over present day Maya.

638
00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:05,196
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so this is one reason why there's a

639
00:35:05,236 --> 00:35:07,596
Speaker 2: reason that I say ten years and not deathbed. I

640
00:35:07,636 --> 00:35:12,076
Speaker 2: am very skeptical of death that regrets. I'm skeptical of

641
00:35:12,436 --> 00:35:15,876
Speaker 2: the accuracy of the reporting of them because it's purely anecdotal.

642
00:35:15,956 --> 00:35:18,156
Speaker 2: The numbers are not very vast. And also I don't

643
00:35:18,156 --> 00:35:20,396
Speaker 2: think that what we're thinking in a moment of fog

644
00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:23,116
Speaker 2: when we're about to perish from the Earth is necessarily

645
00:35:23,156 --> 00:35:25,676
Speaker 2: the clearest and highest expression of what we value exactly

646
00:35:25,676 --> 00:35:27,076
Speaker 2: as you say, well.

647
00:35:26,916 --> 00:35:29,756
Speaker 1: Look, I'm already super happy if we're just constraining the

648
00:35:29,756 --> 00:35:32,636
Speaker 1: timeframe with which we view the future. So I'm on

649
00:35:32,716 --> 00:35:35,116
Speaker 1: board with the like ten years from now, maya. The

650
00:35:35,196 --> 00:35:37,716
Speaker 1: death fed stuff just drives me nuts, because, like you said,

651
00:35:37,956 --> 00:35:40,116
Speaker 1: in our final moments, there's a lot of factors that

652
00:35:40,156 --> 00:35:43,076
Speaker 1: are weighing into what we say we regret, what we

653
00:35:43,116 --> 00:35:45,396
Speaker 1: think we should be saying about what we regret in

654
00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:47,836
Speaker 1: order to maybe pass by people who live on planet Earth.

655
00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:49,036
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's lots of things.

656
00:35:49,636 --> 00:35:51,476
Speaker 2: That's a very good point. That's one that I hadn't

657
00:35:51,476 --> 00:35:53,316
Speaker 2: thought about, is that there could be a kind of

658
00:35:53,436 --> 00:35:55,756
Speaker 2: performative side of it. There could be a kind of

659
00:35:56,236 --> 00:35:58,596
Speaker 2: oh my god, I got to get you know, I

660
00:35:58,596 --> 00:36:00,916
Speaker 2: got to get my last argument in here before the

661
00:36:00,916 --> 00:36:03,276
Speaker 2: final decider decides whether I go up or down, if.

662
00:36:03,156 --> 00:36:05,156
Speaker 1: You have kind of apologize or maake right with so

663
00:36:05,236 --> 00:36:08,396
Speaker 1: and so right right. But I just think it's important

664
00:36:08,436 --> 00:36:11,436
Speaker 1: in general, as much as we can value regret, to

665
00:36:11,556 --> 00:36:15,316
Speaker 1: remember it is also just a feeling. Regret is a

666
00:36:15,356 --> 00:36:18,636
Speaker 1: feeling that can be transient and can pass. And it's

667
00:36:18,636 --> 00:36:23,116
Speaker 1: not always something. I say this only Dan, because regret

668
00:36:23,116 --> 00:36:25,956
Speaker 1: often gets this trump card. It's like, we're making a decision,

669
00:36:25,996 --> 00:36:28,476
Speaker 1: We're trying to weigh costs and benefits. I don't really

670
00:36:28,516 --> 00:36:30,036
Speaker 1: want a kid right now, but I think I might

671
00:36:30,076 --> 00:36:32,796
Speaker 1: regret not having a kid later, And the minute our

672
00:36:32,796 --> 00:36:35,076
Speaker 1: society here's the word regret, it's like, oh my god,

673
00:36:35,276 --> 00:36:37,036
Speaker 1: then go do the thing right And so I just

674
00:36:37,036 --> 00:36:38,836
Speaker 1: want to make sure we're not elevating it to too

675
00:36:38,996 --> 00:36:42,396
Speaker 1: important a category, because, like a lot of other negative emotions,

676
00:36:42,476 --> 00:36:43,876
Speaker 1: it is just a feeling.

677
00:36:44,676 --> 00:36:46,596
Speaker 2: I think that's a fair point. And the other thing

678
00:36:47,236 --> 00:36:49,836
Speaker 2: empirically is that there's a decent amount of evidence showing

679
00:36:49,876 --> 00:36:54,956
Speaker 2: that if we over index on our anticipated regret, we

680
00:36:55,116 --> 00:36:59,436
Speaker 2: end up making suboptimal decisions. We can end up making

681
00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:04,316
Speaker 2: decisions that actually are a little bit more risk averse, because,

682
00:37:04,436 --> 00:37:08,516
Speaker 2: as Dan Gilbert says, we end up buying emotional insurance

683
00:37:08,516 --> 00:37:13,316
Speaker 2: we don't need. And so anticipating regret is not a

684
00:37:13,356 --> 00:37:15,796
Speaker 2: perfect decision making tool. This is why I think there's

685
00:37:15,796 --> 00:37:19,436
Speaker 2: some nuance in it. I think one should anticipate what

686
00:37:19,556 --> 00:37:22,476
Speaker 2: I think most people will regret in the future, but

687
00:37:22,676 --> 00:37:26,996
Speaker 2: actually chill out on most stuff, and also recognize that

688
00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:28,596
Speaker 2: some regrets are ephemeral.

689
00:37:30,316 --> 00:37:33,236
Speaker 1: I'd love to end on a personal note. Dan, I'm wondering,

690
00:37:33,876 --> 00:37:36,116
Speaker 1: you know you've been in the world of regret for

691
00:37:36,476 --> 00:37:39,436
Speaker 1: I imagine several years now, right researching for this book,

692
00:37:39,516 --> 00:37:44,396
Speaker 1: writing this book. What is something that you had long

693
00:37:44,436 --> 00:37:47,516
Speaker 1: regretted or you do still regret, but that you now

694
00:37:48,196 --> 00:37:50,036
Speaker 1: see through a different lens.

695
00:37:50,996 --> 00:37:55,156
Speaker 2: I felt pretty bad about certain regrets that I had

696
00:37:55,396 --> 00:37:58,556
Speaker 2: with regard to kindness, and I never talked about them,

697
00:37:58,676 --> 00:38:01,116
Speaker 2: but I had them there. I harbor these regrets about kindness.

698
00:38:01,116 --> 00:38:03,916
Speaker 2: Now it's a moral regret, although it's a peculiar kind

699
00:38:03,916 --> 00:38:06,516
Speaker 2: of moral regret because my moral regrets about kindness were

700
00:38:06,556 --> 00:38:09,316
Speaker 2: regrets of inaction, not action. So they're not regret threats

701
00:38:09,356 --> 00:38:12,036
Speaker 2: about bullying people, but their regrets about being in situations

702
00:38:12,036 --> 00:38:14,636
Speaker 2: where people were not being treated well, where people were

703
00:38:14,676 --> 00:38:17,956
Speaker 2: being left out or being made fun of, or being excluded.

704
00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:21,676
Speaker 2: And I didn't participate in that, but I saw it,

705
00:38:22,396 --> 00:38:24,876
Speaker 2: and I knew it was wrong, and I didn't do anything.

706
00:38:25,036 --> 00:38:27,436
Speaker 2: And I have to say that has bugged me so

707
00:38:27,636 --> 00:38:30,636
Speaker 2: much for so long, to the point where I kind

708
00:38:30,636 --> 00:38:33,396
Speaker 2: of sublimated it. I said, ok I don't want to

709
00:38:33,396 --> 00:38:35,476
Speaker 2: deal with this. And one of the things about reading

710
00:38:35,476 --> 00:38:38,636
Speaker 2: through all these regrets is that I started seeing that

711
00:38:38,676 --> 00:38:41,236
Speaker 2: regret among other people, and I've started in a weird

712
00:38:41,236 --> 00:38:42,636
Speaker 2: way that made me feel better. It's like, oh my god,

713
00:38:42,676 --> 00:38:45,116
Speaker 2: I'm not the only person who did this. And the

714
00:38:45,156 --> 00:38:46,756
Speaker 2: other thing that it did is that if you listen

715
00:38:46,796 --> 00:38:49,076
Speaker 2: to that, Okay, so this is a good example of

716
00:38:49,076 --> 00:38:51,916
Speaker 2: how you process a regret. So I could I could

717
00:38:51,916 --> 00:38:55,916
Speaker 2: feel that that kindness regret and I could say, no regrets,

718
00:38:55,956 --> 00:38:58,156
Speaker 2: it's in the past. I'm going to look forward. I

719
00:38:58,196 --> 00:39:01,236
Speaker 2: don't want to be negative. That's a bad idea. I

720
00:39:01,276 --> 00:39:04,676
Speaker 2: could also say, oh my god, earlier in my life

721
00:39:04,716 --> 00:39:06,996
Speaker 2: I wasn't as kind as I could be. I am

722
00:39:07,196 --> 00:39:12,916
Speaker 2: just an wretched, awful, worthless individual. I am this the worst.

723
00:39:12,996 --> 00:39:15,796
Speaker 2: That's a bad idea too. What I could do instead

724
00:39:15,916 --> 00:39:19,276
Speaker 2: is like, wow, twenty five years later, this is bugging me.

725
00:39:19,716 --> 00:39:21,956
Speaker 2: This is something I need to pay attention to. And

726
00:39:22,036 --> 00:39:24,316
Speaker 2: what it's teaching me is it's clarifying what I value

727
00:39:24,356 --> 00:39:27,196
Speaker 2: in ways that I didn't realize. I guess I value

728
00:39:27,236 --> 00:39:29,676
Speaker 2: kindness more than I expected, and it's instructing me on

729
00:39:29,676 --> 00:39:31,996
Speaker 2: how to do better. So that when you know, I

730
00:39:32,036 --> 00:39:34,596
Speaker 2: try as much as I can when people are being

731
00:39:34,716 --> 00:39:38,356
Speaker 2: excluded and way small or large to say something, to

732
00:39:38,476 --> 00:39:40,796
Speaker 2: do something to pull people in. I'm not saying I'm

733
00:39:40,796 --> 00:39:44,996
Speaker 2: perfect in doing that, but that spear of regret is

734
00:39:45,116 --> 00:39:47,876
Speaker 2: prompting me to do better in the future because I

735
00:39:47,996 --> 00:39:51,756
Speaker 2: don't want to feel that feeling again, and that feeling

736
00:39:51,996 --> 00:39:54,516
Speaker 2: is telling me what I value and I need to

737
00:39:54,516 --> 00:39:55,236
Speaker 2: pay attention to that.

738
00:40:24,916 --> 00:40:27,556
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my

739
00:40:27,636 --> 00:40:30,516
Speaker 1: conversation with Dan Pink, I recommend you check out another

740
00:40:30,556 --> 00:40:34,196
Speaker 1: conversation I had on the show with Susan Messing. Susan

741
00:40:34,236 --> 00:40:36,916
Speaker 1: and her partner Michael McCarthy were a beloved couple in

742
00:40:36,916 --> 00:40:40,956
Speaker 1: the Chicago comedy scene. Michael passed away from cancer in

743
00:40:40,996 --> 00:40:44,876
Speaker 1: twenty twenty. As part of Susan's grieving process, she began

744
00:40:44,916 --> 00:40:46,996
Speaker 1: to sift through the fifty or so boxes of his

745
00:40:47,036 --> 00:40:50,276
Speaker 1: writing that he had left behind. What followed was a

746
00:40:50,316 --> 00:40:54,116
Speaker 1: complicated grief. We'll link to that episode in the show notes.

747
00:41:04,356 --> 00:41:07,396
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive

748
00:41:07,396 --> 00:41:11,196
Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes

749
00:41:11,236 --> 00:41:15,276
Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green. Our story editor Kate Parkinson Morgan,

750
00:41:15,756 --> 00:41:20,476
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae.

751
00:41:21,156 --> 00:41:24,396
Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith

752
00:41:24,436 --> 00:41:27,636
Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is

753
00:41:27,676 --> 00:41:31,076
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there,

754
00:41:31,796 --> 00:41:35,356
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

755
00:41:35,556 --> 00:41:37,996
Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram

756
00:41:38,036 --> 00:41:40,796
Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker See you next week.

757
00:42:03,436 --> 00:42:06,876
Speaker 2: And what they did is they told kids a story

758
00:42:06,956 --> 00:42:09,316
Speaker 2: about two boys who lived near each other and same

759
00:42:09,316 --> 00:42:13,436
Speaker 2: neighborhood and each day rode their bikes to work. So

760
00:42:13,556 --> 00:42:16,156
Speaker 2: one kid's name was Bob. Oh, sorry, one kid?

761
00:42:16,236 --> 00:42:18,756
Speaker 1: Is it to work or school? Because they're little kids, right, okay,

762
00:42:18,916 --> 00:42:22,476
Speaker 1: just like these are some very advanced kids you've got, Yes.

763
00:42:22,236 --> 00:42:25,396
Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed they're they're they're child actress. And so this

764
00:42:25,436 --> 00:42:28,356
Speaker 2: is a this is taking place in Hollywood, and they're

765
00:42:28,396 --> 00:42:32,476
Speaker 2: going to quickly descend into drug addiction and despair. But

766
00:42:33,196 --> 00:42:34,636
Speaker 2: first they're going to ride their big