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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me Rosie O'Donnell. And guess what, it's

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Speaker 1: June all month, as my nana would say, it's Pride month.

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Speaker 1: It's Pride month. And for a very long time, my

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Speaker 1: family would go into the city. And I remember one

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Speaker 1: year when I was about twelve, we were in the

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Speaker 1: city and there was the Pride Parade, which is now

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Speaker 1: a march, actually not a parade at all, but back

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Speaker 1: then that's what it was called the Pride Parade. And

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Speaker 1: we went in and there were a bunch of like

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Speaker 1: dikes on bikes and motorcycles and people walking with them

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Speaker 1: because they go very slow, and giving out flyers. And

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Speaker 1: this woman came over to me. Now I'm in my

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Speaker 1: overalls and a backwards hat and converse sneakers, so I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily think she was a psychic, but she came

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Speaker 1: over to me and said, here, I thought you might

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Speaker 1: want this. And I remember, at twelve feeling so exposed,

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Speaker 1: used and seen, and yet a little part of me

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Speaker 1: felt happy, like, oh, these are my people, you know,

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Speaker 1: which is hard to believe now that I have a

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Speaker 1: ten year old And I remember myself being twelve so

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Speaker 1: vividly and having these strong feelings about myself and my

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Speaker 1: life and just discovering that I was a gay person

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Speaker 1: and moving on from there. It's been quite a journey,

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Speaker 1: I have to tell you, from nineteen seventy four till

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Speaker 1: now me twelve and up right. Well. Pride Month is

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Speaker 1: celebrated in June and it honors the nineteen sixty nine

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Speaker 1: Stonewall Rebellion, which most people I hope know about probably

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Speaker 1: did not learn about it in school sadly, but it

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Speaker 1: was a tipping point for the gay and transgendered people

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Speaker 1: who were relentlessly terrorized, beaten, and murdered for being who

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Speaker 1: they were. And here in twenty twenty three, we find

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Speaker 1: ourselves at a tipping point once again, where lives are

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Speaker 1: literally on the line. Gay, trans queer we have become

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Speaker 1: the scapegoat of a faltering GOP who are latching onto

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Speaker 1: a fascist playbook of blame and division. At Stonewall, we

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Speaker 1: stood our ground with our allies and rose up together.

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Speaker 1: We were not silent, and we will continue to do

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Speaker 1: so until we have equal freedom without exception, and we'll

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Speaker 1: do it every year. In the month of June we

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Speaker 1: highlight it, but for us it's every day. It is

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Speaker 1: gay Pride. It's very upsetting as a sixty one year

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Speaker 1: old gay woman to see what's happening to the trans

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Speaker 1: community with over five hundred different bills, one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty of them specifically transgender people other targets. I really

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Speaker 1: hope that we can make a change in the current

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Speaker 1: pop culture political zeitgeist, that we can take a look

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Speaker 1: at what the far fringes of the right wing are

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Speaker 1: doing to human beings in this country because they think

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Speaker 1: they can. It's very depressing, I have to say, But

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Speaker 1: I believe in this new generation coming up. I believe

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Speaker 1: in the millennials. I believe that the gay people who

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Speaker 1: have been around forever and will continue to be around forever.

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Speaker 1: You cannot legislate us out of existence. And that's the truth.

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Speaker 1: So in honor of Pride Month of June, we're going

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Speaker 1: to have all gay people and gay allies this month.

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Speaker 1: How's that? And the first person we interviewed for this

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Speaker 1: wonderful month of gay pride and celebration is the one

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Speaker 1: and only Holland Taylor. Now, I love Holland Taylor. I've

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Speaker 1: always loved her. What an amazing actress. She is an

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Speaker 1: activist and beautiful woman, person soul. She's pretty phenomenal. And

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Speaker 1: you know, usually when I come in here and get

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Speaker 1: on the headphones and sit on the zoom thing and

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Speaker 1: get everyone ready, we start at this, you know, right away,

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Speaker 1: like the countdown counts down, and then we go well,

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Speaker 1: I started talking to Holland once I saw her beautiful

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Speaker 1: face on the zoom and we started chatting, and then

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Speaker 1: we sort of got into the interview. But it starts nowhere. Okay.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about our skin conditions and the things

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Speaker 1: that older women talk about. Perhaps we were talking about

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Speaker 1: when we were kids and how we used to get

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Speaker 1: in the sun all the time, and then we sort

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Speaker 1: of start the car. It's a weird beginning, that's basically

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Speaker 1: what I'm telling you. It's kind of a weird beginning,

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Speaker 1: but it's a wonderful conversation. And I'm so happy that

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Speaker 1: we get to have Holland Taylor to kick off our

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Speaker 1: Gay Pride Month celebration. And I know it's really lgbt

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Speaker 1: QIA Pride Month, but you know, us older gays, we

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Speaker 1: just say gay and it's queer inclusive everybody, everybody. So

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Speaker 1: that's what we have today, a conversation with Holland Taylor,

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Speaker 1: and I hope you enjoy it. Stick around here comes

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Speaker 1: I think if you're over fifty, we grew up with

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Speaker 1: no sunscreen. I know, right, baby oil? Did you do that?

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Speaker 1: Baby oil on your face?

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Speaker 2: Oh? And tench foil reflecting things? Yes, me too, around

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Speaker 2: your face, so that you really just brutalized your face.

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Speaker 1: Those were the days.

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Speaker 2: So but since the pandemic, I didn't do anything.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being here.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure now.

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Speaker 1: I didn't either. In fact, during those three years Holland

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic, I think a lot of us didn't

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Speaker 1: take care of our normal things because we were so

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Speaker 1: thrown off.

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Speaker 2: You know, well you can't. I mean, were you going

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Speaker 2: to go to a dentist? I never did.

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Speaker 1: I didn't either.

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Speaker 2: I mean I took really good care of my teeth,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't go to a dentist.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I really am walking around occasionally feeling I think I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of bruised by the whole experience as to life itself.

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Speaker 1: I agree, because I think.

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Speaker 2: We felt a vulnerability that was unlike any other. And

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Speaker 2: I remember when I hike, or I used to hike,

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Speaker 2: and when the pandemic first really set in, I felt

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Speaker 2: the air was dangerous. I worried about the air, and

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Speaker 2: I didn't feel safe anywhere, even way up on the

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Speaker 2: top of my hill overlooking the whole city. I thought

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Speaker 2: I just told a sense of vulnerability that well, I'm

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Speaker 2: sure can't compare with people in wartime, but it's just

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Speaker 2: strange different, But it was close, yeah, strange. And also

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Speaker 2: the world was no longer a peaceful place. I mean

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Speaker 2: it's like dangers lurked, yes, but there are so many

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Speaker 2: peoples and nations that have been in all kinds of

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Speaker 2: danger for millennia. So for them it's like, please, it's

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Speaker 2: just one more thing I would.

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Speaker 1: Imagine, right, But you know what got me during it

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Speaker 1: was first of all the intense loneliness that I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize how much I needed just normal human interaction. That

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Speaker 1: was that just sucked out of your life.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I completely agree. And you know, like if I'm

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Speaker 2: in a crowd and you know, I'm looking jostle somebody

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Speaker 2: and you sort of hold their shoulder to let them

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Speaker 2: know that you're there, and you're just going to ooch

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Speaker 2: your way around them, Yes, I mean that kind of

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Speaker 2: I've always been very not touching, feely, but in contact

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Speaker 2: with people, and if I'm going to thank somebody for something,

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Speaker 2: I have my hands on their shoulders or I hold

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Speaker 2: their hands, and I just felt a lack of humanity,

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Speaker 2: particularly in LA I actually worked a lot during the pandemic,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of amazing because I have to say

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Speaker 2: the stress, the stress of getting sick and causing work

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Speaker 2: a stoppage which never happened. But you know, I revived,

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Speaker 2: and I did my final run of an here at

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Speaker 2: capacity in the playoffs.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I do know.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I wanted to do it on the West Coast,

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Speaker 2: so I thought I'd done it in every theater capital

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Speaker 2: in America, I should do it on the West Coast

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Speaker 2: myself and then release it. You know, it's a lot.

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Speaker 2: It is a lot. It's ten years since Broadway. Then

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Speaker 2: it's you a member of the size of the polace, right,

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Speaker 2: so doing it was already its own test. But the

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Speaker 2: COVID theear that theater. It cost them four hundred and

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Speaker 2: eighty thousand dollars to mount it, and I'd gotten sicker

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Speaker 2: in the run that we've lost the entire amount. This

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Speaker 2: trace was just right, just trrendous. And I think people

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Speaker 2: go on movie sets feeling the same way. Yeah, like

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Speaker 2: I could cost this movie studio a half million dollars

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Speaker 2: in three days, you know, correct.

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Speaker 1: I did two filmings during the pandemic, and first of all,

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Speaker 1: the first one just took forever because it was started

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Speaker 1: at the beginning and everyone didn't know what to do,

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Speaker 1: and so it ended up, you know, taking like a

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Speaker 1: year and a half to film the ten episode series.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, but everybody was panicked as well, and you

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Speaker 1: didn't get that thing that I love about sets where

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Speaker 1: you talk to the grip guy and he's just had

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Speaker 1: a baby and you get to know everybody. But you

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Speaker 1: couldn't even talk to people who were not in zone

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Speaker 1: one right, right, And it felt very different than the

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Speaker 1: movie making experience.

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Speaker 2: I agree. I've done television series and the movie and

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Speaker 2: that play and few other things and flying to New

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Speaker 2: York to do billions. I mean, it's been wild, and

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Speaker 2: I guess it's essentially over in that people are released

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Speaker 2: from the strictures. But of course it's not over in

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Speaker 2: the sense of I know two people who got it

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Speaker 2: in the past couple of weeks unexpectedly, probably because they're

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Speaker 2: letting their garden down.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I went to the doctor today and she told

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Speaker 1: me to get a fifth booster. Right, So she said

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Speaker 1: to me, you know you're sixty one, go get it.

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Speaker 1: You know, don't mess with this, go get it.

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Speaker 2: So you had your first wive like in September or

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Speaker 2: October or something, the one for omicron, right, they don't

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Speaker 2: getting anything else.

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Speaker 1: Now, I had that one, and now you need another.

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Speaker 1: Me too, exactly, me too.

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Speaker 2: I had mine in September.

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Speaker 1: I also got my shingle shot two days ago.

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Speaker 2: I've gotten that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, shingle shot is good. It's funny as you get older,

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Speaker 1: you know everything, Like I realize I see a doctor

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Speaker 1: like every two months, a different doctor, but you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe different. But as you get older, this is what

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Speaker 1: you do. You know, you try to stay as healthy

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Speaker 1: as you can and you try to get as plugged

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Speaker 1: in to your doctor. So you know, what's going on.

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Speaker 2: Every two months isn't bad, right, compared to some people

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Speaker 2: that go every couple of weeks. Well, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: it's getting older. As an offer, siss Bet Davis said,

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Speaker 2: and it's really true. It's a challenge. I feel like

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Speaker 2: I've been let off lightly compared to so many of

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Speaker 2: my friends who have really serious challenges. It's life.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like you have to be older to be

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Speaker 2: wise enough to withstand what happens to you an agent.

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Speaker 2: It's so true, and the ultimate agent, which is that

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Speaker 2: you fall over and the croak. You know, and you

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Speaker 2: have to you have to come to some degree of

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Speaker 2: acceptance of that or you can't enjoy the day. I

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Speaker 2: sort of discovered that as a bargain this year. I

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Speaker 2: haven't achieved it, but I've discovered that that's the bargain

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Speaker 2: I have to strike. Okay, I accept I am going

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Speaker 2: to die, yes, and it's not going to be a

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Speaker 2: long time from now. Yes, And so I've got to

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Speaker 2: enjoy the day. And I've always been one who let

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Speaker 2: worry and stuff just fuck the shit on my days.

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Speaker 2: And I just guess, can't do it. Can't do it

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Speaker 2: me too, Holland can't do it anymore.

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Speaker 1: No, we'll be right back with Holland Taylor. And you

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Speaker 1: know it's funny. I turned sixty a year ago, so

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Speaker 1: I'm now sixty one, and I was like, what do

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Speaker 1: I want to do for myself? I'm sixty My mother

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Speaker 1: died at thirty nine, and I thought, this is a

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Speaker 1: huge accomplishment, you know, I imagined following her footsteps to

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Speaker 1: be gone in my forties or something. And so I

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Speaker 1: turned sixty and I rented a house on the beach

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Speaker 1: in Malibu. Great, and I got a chef. I lost

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Speaker 1: some weight, I got healthy March, I did more therapy.

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Speaker 1: I did some EMDR with the eyeball thing.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, that's interesting. What is that EMDR.

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Speaker 1: It's for trauma. It's an eye movement therapy, and they

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Speaker 1: show you sort of it. It's you don't have to

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Speaker 1: do anything particularly, they lead you through what you're supposed

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Speaker 1: to do, and it unleashes trauma that you had locked

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Speaker 1: inside of you that you weren't aware of. And it's

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Speaker 1: something in the brain.

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Speaker 2: But you work with someone, you work with a person.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you work with a person.

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Speaker 2: Have you done any of the psychedelics, Like, have you

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Speaker 2: done psilocybin?

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Speaker 1: No, I'm totally afraid, Holland.

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Speaker 2: I did psilocybin. If you can belive in that our

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Speaker 2: trip where I could literally had to be walked. I

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Speaker 2: couldn't walk without support after it, and it was wild,

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Speaker 2: and I think pardonly the benefit of it is that

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Speaker 2: I had the sense of having done it, you know,

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Speaker 2: having risked something, and that it was a very interesting experience.

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Speaker 2: So like in my case, I went because I said,

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of fear and dread. I mean,

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Speaker 2: who does it? They have a lot of fear and

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Speaker 2: dreaded because I'm eighty I just hearned eighty. So I

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Speaker 2: have twenty years on you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so big birthday and.

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Speaker 2: So they you know, the indigenous peoples call it medicine

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Speaker 2: because it treats what you need treated. And so basically

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Speaker 2: my experience on psilocybinal was full of fear and dread.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like, yes, you fear, fear and dread, so

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Speaker 2: here it is, this is what you have to face.

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Speaker 2: And it was wild. I will do it again. I

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Speaker 2: think it's something people could do every couples. It's too

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Speaker 2: big a deal to do like often, but it's wild.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I have a lot of friends who did ayahuasca,

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Speaker 1: not for me, not for me.

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Speaker 2: They are nothing that involves puking. Nothing involves puking with others.

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Speaker 1: That's what I said. I'm not throwing up in public

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Speaker 1: and pooping my pants in a tent on a cot.

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing it.

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Speaker 2: We're in private. I'm not joking impromitting exactly, not as

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Speaker 2: an elective.

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Speaker 1: Choice, not as something you volunteer for.

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Speaker 2: Correct exactly. There might be that, you know coming for

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Speaker 2: other reasons.

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Speaker 1: They say if you're on antidepressants, that you should not

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Speaker 1: do ayahuasca, that it does something to the serotonin levels

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Speaker 1: that you're already kind of trying to keep in your

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Speaker 1: brain with taking an SSRI. So yes, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I just but I'm never I've never done anything besides

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Speaker 1: marijuana and beer. Those are my two big vices right there.

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Speaker 2: Marijuana is kind of a downar for me.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, Yeah, you don't like it, so.

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Speaker 2: I don't do it. I don't hardly drink anymore. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's just like I think, you know, no at.

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Speaker 1: One one, No, because I don't want to miss a

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Speaker 1: day and I want to feel well. Yeah, exactly. The

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Speaker 1: next day you wake up and you know, I have

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Speaker 1: a ten year old here, and she's got a lot

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Speaker 1: of questions. And so from the time I open my eyes,

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Speaker 1: I'm engaged. You know, she's asking me things like what

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Speaker 1: is her name? Her name is Dakota, she has autism.

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Speaker 1: She's ten years old.

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Speaker 2: My name is Dakota, and I have questions? How divine?

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Speaker 1: Yes, she has lots of questions and She told me

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Speaker 1: about a month or two ago that she was non binary,

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Speaker 1: and I said, oh, that's fantastic, whatever you want to be, honey.

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Speaker 1: And then she told me last night that she was asexual,

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Speaker 1: and I said, honey, you're ten. Everyone's a sexual, right.

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Speaker 1: You got to wait till you're in the teenage year, sixteen,

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Speaker 1: come on this stuff. But you know, she's so smart, Holland.

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Speaker 1: She's so smart it would be just blow your mind

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Speaker 1: what she asks people and what she thinks of. What

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Speaker 1: are her thoughts here?

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Speaker 2: You know, she's curious, Well, are you out in Malibu

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Speaker 2: now or are you from New York.

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Speaker 1: I'm in Malibu. I moved here to do a series

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Speaker 1: two years ago. And the school that she is attending,

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Speaker 1: it's like the number one school in the country for

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Speaker 1: neurodivergent kids who also have learning disabilities. So she also

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Speaker 1: had dyslexia. When we came to the school. In third grade,

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Speaker 1: she couldn't read it all. And she used to bring

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Speaker 1: her books to school in New York and pretend to

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Speaker 1: be reading them at lunch because she felt so shamed

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Speaker 1: that she couldn't read. And now she's reading Harry Potter

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Speaker 1: in one grade year.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: She was able to read a whole Harry Potter book.

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Speaker 2: Fantastic. That's wonderful.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing.

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Speaker 2: That is wonderful. Yeah, it's just great.

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Speaker 1: So we're out here. We're out here now, and it's

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Speaker 1: such a different way of life. I lived here for

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Speaker 1: ten years early on in my career, and then when

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Speaker 1: I had my first child, I moved back home so

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Speaker 1: that they could be with their cousins and whatnot, and

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Speaker 1: then we moved out here for her schooling and for

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Speaker 1: my work. So I don't know, it's kind of hard.

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Speaker 1: I have five kids, you know, I missed the other four,

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Speaker 1: but they're own and out, so it's not like they

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Speaker 1: were hanging at home with me, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, look what you've done, really, Yeah, wasn't achievement.

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Speaker 1: I know sometimes I think, wow, that was a lot

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Speaker 1: of that was a big bite to take, o'donald, you know,

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Speaker 1: but I've loved every minute of it.

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Speaker 2: I've done a lot of good work during the period too.

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Speaker 2: Amazingly enough, while you were raising those kids, Yeah, we

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Speaker 2: did a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever want to have children? Was that part

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Speaker 1: of your growing up? No?

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Speaker 2: I never did. No, I might as well have been

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Speaker 2: the only child because my sisters were considerably older and

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Speaker 2: they were away at school, so I was left to

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Speaker 2: my own devices a lot, which I didn't find. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was benign neglect, as they say, and so I

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Speaker 2: had to entertain myself. But I have add and so

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Speaker 2: entertaining myself was really a challenge. I mean, I didn't

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Speaker 2: know what to do with myself. I had a lot

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Speaker 2: of things that I was interested in, but I didn't

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Speaker 2: know how to wish to do first and how to

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Speaker 2: pick it, and I could not realize my time. It

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Speaker 2: was really kind of helpless in that regard. But I'm

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Speaker 2: used to being on my own, not being unhappy with it,

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Speaker 2: but just being a little bit like Ladi da di da,

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Speaker 2: ladi da? What shall I do?

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Speaker 1: And were your parents busy working like people in that

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Speaker 1: time or were they just not very emotional creatures.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was a really different error. I mean you're

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Speaker 2: talking the forties and fifties now, that was a different error, right,

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Speaker 2: And I don't think parents felt they were neglecting their

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Speaker 2: children by leaving them in their room to play, right,

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Speaker 2: you know. I think I was a playpen baby because

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Speaker 2: when I was very little, as I say, my sisters

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Speaker 2: were away but my mother had her own things that

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Speaker 2: she had to do, and so I was safe in

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Speaker 2: her playpen. But I'm using myself and then in my room.

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Speaker 2: And also in that day and age, from a very

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Speaker 2: young age, I just wandered out in the whole laborhood. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just wandered around. Little kid wandering around, but they

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Speaker 2: would think anything of about it. In the forties or fifties,

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Speaker 2: kids are out playing, go out and play.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in the sixties, my mother would say, everyone outside

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Speaker 1: and home when the streetlights go on.

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Speaker 2: That's so great.

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Speaker 1: So we would be out, five kids, yeah, all day

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Speaker 1: until dinner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my mother didn't ever say that, but that's essentially

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Speaker 2: what happened. Yeah, And I think I can sort of

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Speaker 2: vaguely remember having ways to remember where I walked so

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Speaker 2: that I could find my way home. We had a

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Speaker 2: stream that I walked up that was behind my house.

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Speaker 2: There were railroad tracks and I walked along.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: There were just different neighborhoods I wandered in that were interesting,

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Speaker 2: in little woods and stuff like that. I meant, you

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Speaker 2: were no more letter churel fact today than fire.

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Speaker 1: No. I don't even let her go to the movies

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Speaker 1: with their friends. Don't. I don't let them get on

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Speaker 1: my sight, mostly because it's so terrifying. Ye know, well

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Speaker 1: it is, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, today's earld. It's just almost unbelievable. Really, if you

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Speaker 2: and I had been told as young people what this

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Speaker 2: would be like now, we would simply not believe it.

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Speaker 2: But then if you you know, I don't want to,

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Speaker 2: we could just scream about politics and both of them

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Speaker 2: go mad. But if January fifth of twenty twenty, if

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Speaker 2: you had told me what was going to happen January sixth,

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Speaker 2: you said, not on your own life, not in this country,

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Speaker 2: not what happened?

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Speaker 1: And do you remember watching it that day? Partly? And

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Speaker 1: I with a kind of.

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Speaker 2: Awe and a kind of shell shocked doom, like I

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Speaker 2: can't believe this is even happening. It was pinched me.

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Speaker 1: It looked like a movie. It looked like a movie, said,

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Speaker 1: it didn't look like it was real life. I remember going,

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Speaker 1: what the is happening?

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Speaker 2: And so violent?

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Speaker 1: So violent? And then to try to pass it off

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Speaker 1: to us as a normal day of tourists. It's ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: Don't believe what you're seeing?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's really shocked.

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Speaker 1: I know, really we shouldn't even go there. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember You probably don't. Do you remember the first time

404
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Speaker 1: we met.

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Speaker 2: That we met, guy? It must have been a very

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Speaker 2: long time ago, Rosey.

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Speaker 1: It's a very long time ago. It was at Norman

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Speaker 1: Lear's house, oh my, in Malibu, I believe, and he

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Speaker 1: used to have these gatherings of people. And I walked

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Speaker 1: in and you were on the couch and I walked

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Speaker 1: by you and I'm like, oh my god, that's Holland Taylor.

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Speaker 1: And I don't even know if I introduced myself to you,

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Speaker 1: but I remember vividly that was the first time that

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Speaker 1: I was in your presence well, And like Sarah Paulson,

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Speaker 1: I was also struck by your beauty. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you were very very I was very struck. I was

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Speaker 1: captivated by how you looked. I was like, look at her,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you're such a phenomenal actress. I had

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Speaker 1: known you for forever doing what you do best. You know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I feel like we've known each other all our

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Speaker 2: professional lives. I guess not quite all, but most a

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Speaker 2: lot of it. I remember you doing something so extraordinary

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Speaker 2: for Anne in Chicago, and you know, this was a

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Speaker 2: production of play and research a written play and a

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Speaker 2: series of like eight or nine runs which have been

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Speaker 2: absolutely blessed, like you know, magic and a bottle. I

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Speaker 2: mean the blessings, the good fortune that has fallen on

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Speaker 2: that play, as if by magic. Being invited to do

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Speaker 2: the Kennedy Center at the Commuty Center right after you

430
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Speaker 2: right became that huge theater in Chicago, the Schubert, the

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Speaker 2: Old Schubert, which is then called the Bank of America Theater.

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Speaker 2: Give me a break. But Newsweek, Tina Brown was then

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Speaker 2: publishing New Sweep. The great Tina Brown, one of the

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Speaker 2: great women of all time, great media person, great writer,

435
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 2: a great publisher and promoter of things. And she got

436
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 2: wind that I was doing this play, and I guess

437
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 2: she heard about earlier productions of it in Austin, and

438
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 2: she assigned. At first it was Marie Brenner, and then

439
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 2: it was another writer who I adore in my company.

440
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 2: I've forgotten the names go first, as you know I do. Anyway,

441
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: to do a big piece on ann before it came

442
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 2: to New York. The interviews were before Chicago, So I

443
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: said for a piece in Newsweek about my play. Yes,

444
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: so in Chicago we had that that was going to happen.

445
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: We got invited to You're shown you came to see

446
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 2: the play, which was an incredible shot in the arm

447
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: for the play. We're going to be sold out. I

448
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 2: think we did sell out chicag good and also but

449
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: it was a wonderful interview because you're interested, you're interesting,

450
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 2: and you're interested, and it was wonderful to be able

451
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 2: to speak nationally for the play. And that was the

452
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 2: first time I did until the Gounty. Second.

453
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: Well, what an amazing job as a writer, never mind

454
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: as a performer. You were channeling Anne Richards, channeling her.

455
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: It was one of the most magical things I've ever

456
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: seen on Broadway. I've ever seen on live theater, and

457
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: you were her. It was so unbelievably lovely to feel

458
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: her presence again, well for me too because I was

459
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: friendly with her and yeah, yes, and to get to

460
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 1: but you were doing it, so I don't know if

461
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: you could feel the awe like I was like, she's

462
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: back from the beyond, She's back. There she is, you know.

463
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 2: I think a loved people felt that way. Uh well,

464
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: each iteration of it, I got closer and closer, and

465
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 2: I always continue to polish the text, improve the text, polished, polished, cut, cut,

466
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 2: ad add polish and polished cut right through to Pasadena.

467
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: This last up and by Broadway, I was a notch

468
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 2: better than Chicago. And I had done DC after that,

469
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 2: and then after Broadway, I did it two years later

470
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 2: in Austin. That's where it was filmed, and that's where

471
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: it's It's still on PBS and Broadway HD day performances.

472
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: And then this last run, missus Seal came and Alan

473
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: came and they said, you've arrived. This you could not

474
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: this is just risen to such a level, and it was.

475
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: It was the first time I felt that very interesting feeling,

476
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: which was you was I only speak this way because

477
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 2: you're an actor, and you know what I mean. If

478
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: I did another run of Display, yes it would improve.

479
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: It would always improve, because you always grew. You're always

480
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: on your own shoulders. But this particular run, which was

481
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 2: advertised to be my last and has to be, I

482
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 2: could not do it again. One of the very last

483
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: performances I walked off stage was a matinee. The audience

484
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: was particularly keen. It was like a Chicago audience. And

485
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 2: I walked off and I had been really on the ball,

486
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 2: and I said out loud in the wings. I am satisfied.

487
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 2: Oh I have never felt that way or said that.

488
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 2: And I said to myself walking down the stairs to

489
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: a dressing room, I could do it better. If we

490
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: were going to run more, I would do it better.

491
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 2: But I am satisfied that was good enough.

492
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: Do you think that you knew you couldn't do it

493
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: again because just physically it's too taxing, or because you

494
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 1: did feel satiated and you did feel maybe I'm done

495
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: with this for now.

496
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: You know, I announced it as the final run of Van,

497
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: And because the fact is to do a run a

498
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: VAN is a five to six month thing, I have

499
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: two months to learn it and be drilled with it.

500
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: You know, you have to be able to literally stand

501
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: up and say it without a pause, without not everything.

502
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: She's not in a prospective. You can never stop and think.

503
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: You must drive the play. You must drive it, and

504
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 2: you do drive it. And so to know something that

505
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 2: well requires quite a preparation. And that is how well

506
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: I knew it. And I was very pleased that I

507
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 2: could know something so well at eighty or then I

508
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: was seventy nine. Yeah, yeah, so it's yeah. So I thought, well,

509
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: all right, I'm happy with that. And I suppose, you know,

510
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: if some I don't know what circumstance it would be

511
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: where I had to give another half year of my

512
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: shorter and shorter life to do it. I suppose I could,

513
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: but I don't have any desire to. And I've already

514
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 2: said that was the last time. And I don't know

515
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: what city I would do a dinner. I've done it

516
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 2: in DC, I've done it in Austin. I've done it

517
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 2: on Broadway, you know, I've done it in Chicago, a

518
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: great theater city. And i've done it in Los Angeles,

519
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 2: so and sam Antonia that was a great theater.

520
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a brilliant play and it's a brilliant performance.

521
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: And everyone who has seen it is lucky. I saw

522
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: it many times because I saw it in New York

523
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: twice and saw it in Chicago. Of course.

524
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: Well that's so just wonderful of you.

525
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: Well, just to watch it was like a masterclass, you know,

526
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: in that role, it was pretty astounding.

527
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: Well, I felt I just said this to somebody. I

528
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: felt that it was a mission and a gift to me.

529
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 2: I'm not a particularly spiritual person. I don't pray, I

530
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: don't think of you know, the divine, But that absolutely

531
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: fell on me from the heavens to do it. I

532
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: mean I have never I spent three years literally not

533
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 2: thinking of anything else to search that and to write it,

534
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 2: and then after that I hardly thought of anything else.

535
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 2: I was helping produce it. I was buying props on eBay,

536
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: I was getting dialect lessons, I was doing, you know,

537
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: so many things. I remember the name of that journalist,

538
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: Nancy Hu Nancy Hawswerth, the greatest piece in Yeah. So

539
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: after that thing with you, Yeah, Newsweek comes at this,

540
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 2: like this huge four page spread in Newsweek about the

541
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 2: I mean so yeah, things like that were happening all

542
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: the time to the play, and so it was I

543
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: feel I don't take any of that onto me. I

544
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: feel part of the thing that was gifted, you know,

545
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: to our culture to keep that particular American hero alive

546
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: in our culture. That is one way that she will

547
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: stay alive in our culture. Yes, I mean, I think

548
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: PBS is going to, you know, continue to carry it,

549
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: always be available on BBS, and people are doing it.

550
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: The rare intrimid actress wants to do it well, and

551
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: it does get done somewhat, but it's an enormous. It's

552
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: a it's a hell of the thing to decide you

553
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: want to just do.

554
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: Do you have any desire to write another even if

555
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: it's not for you, if it could be for someone else.

556
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I mean I might write

557
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: something else, but I don't think of play. I didn't

558
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: want to write play. I didn't want to right to

559
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: one person show. I wanted to do something creative about

560
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: Anne Richards. And that turned out to be the most

561
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: obvious and the most obvious thing to do. And it

562
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 2: did start with the thought, oh, I could play her,

563
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: And I thought in the movie of the week or

564
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: something about her life from the time she became sober

565
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: to the times she became governor. It was a very

566
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 2: interesting ten years. And I thought and thought about that,

567
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: and I never did anything about it. I was literally

568
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: chastising myself for not doing anything about it. I was

569
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: driving to work, I was driving to an f met

570
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: and I literally hit me like a thunderbolt. I've told

571
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: his story so many times, probably to you, that Oh,

572
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: I'm not doing anything about it because it should be

573
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: a play. Yeah, it's a one person show, for sure.

574
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: She's dealing directing with the audience that is for sure

575
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: what it is, and then they just didn't look back.

576
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: I didn't look back, and I researched for the family

577
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: and with her closest administration, which are also her closest trends,

578
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: and those most women are now women or my friends

579
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 2: in the matter, in my life too. So it's like

580
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: a gift to me.

581
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, to all of us, Yeah, to all of us.

582
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

583
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: Can I ask you what it was like for you

584
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: when you were younger and figuring out your sexuality. Did

585
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: you have a moment like I did? You know, Oh,

586
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: if anyone finds this out, it's going to be bad

587
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: for my career. But in my real life I was

588
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: out like you were out, Like Yeah, I would always

589
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: go to the Emmys with Kelly, and you know, I

590
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: would always like But people didn't ask back then, which

591
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: people don't believe now when they say they didn't you

592
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: have a stady, I go, well, first of all, no

593
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: one asked me.

594
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: They didn't, And you know, I wonder what I would

595
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: have said, because, as you said it, I did not

596
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: hide my relationships. I mean, I think I was about

597
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: thirty before I had one, but I think that at

598
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: that age I was aware so me thirty was what

599
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: in the seventies, for Christ's sake, And I think that

600
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 2: I was out in the world. But I was so

601
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: much out in the theater world, like I didn't well,

602
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: you know, I'm at work, right, I don't take my

603
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: lover partner to work obviously, so of course, but I

604
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: think I thought if I run in the social circles

605
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: of the theater, I can't because I thought it would

606
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: hurt my career. Absolutely, I thought it would, and of

607
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: course it wouldn't now, but it might have then. And

608
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: in the case, I didn't spend a lot of time

609
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: thinking about it. I think it was depressing, and I

610
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: think it was something that I just ticked off the box.

611
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: Don't go out in the theater world with a girlfriend. Yeah,

612
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: there wasn't always with someone. I spent a lot of

613
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: time not with anybody, so right, that didn't matter, right,

614
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 2: So but I think that I did worry that it

615
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: would hurt my career. Yeah, And nobody did ever rest

616
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: because then I was older and people were not about

617
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: to ask an older person, you know, like they always

618
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: placed such strong characters. I'm sure they're afraid that they

619
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: could meet with a strong rebuff of course, I am

620
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: nothing like the characters, like.

621
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: Exactly, how are you parents about it? Did you ever

622
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: discuss your parent it with your parents or was it

623
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: sort of don't ask, don't tell.

624
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: No, it was sort of don't ask, don't tell for

625
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: a while, and my mother said a few things that

626
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: made me worry that she would be judgmental. And it

627
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: was actually about a male friend of mine who was

628
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: clearly gay, and she was upset about him being that way.

629
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: I thought, Mother, I mean, we're in trouble here. Exactly.

630
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: I think there was probably a period of I don't like,

631
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: maybe five years or so where it was don't ask,

632
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: don't tell. But then, you know, I don't think she

633
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: was happy talking about it. But then, over the course

634
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: of many years, two of the people I was with

635
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: she absolutely adored and that really turned her around.

636
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, changed things.

637
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: And then we still didn't talk about there because my

638
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: mother was not terribly direct when the subject was very personal.

639
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: She want't directed about herself either. My two sisters that

640
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: I begged her to write the story of her early

641
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: part of her life, and she did find me and

642
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: even it was quite restrained and polite. Yeah, she just

643
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: was She was a different era a different epoch, right,

644
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: at a different manner.

645
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: That was the times too, right, the times. That's how

646
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: it was.

647
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

648
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, people don't really realize that when I was even

649
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: growing up and knew I was gay from when I

650
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: was like twelve years old. You know, I didn't necessarily

651
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: have a word for it, but I knew that I

652
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: did not want to have a boyfriend ever. Ever, Like

653
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: I knew that at twelve years old.

654
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 2: Well, I did have a couple of boyfriends. I had

655
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: a boyfriend in college that we went continued on for

656
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: a while after college, and he actually died a few

657
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: years ago. Was unbelievably upsetting to speak of him no

658
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: longer on planet Earth. Right. And then I had a

659
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: few in the theater my first years and near ronal

660
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,239
Speaker 2: Leeman was one of the like doored Ron Leieman as

661
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: a person and as a man and director friend. But

662
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: as I say, I was about twenty nine or thirty,

663
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: I just you know, I had this experience, had got

664
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: into a close relationship with a woman, and I just thought,

665
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: I didn't think this is it, this is the way

666
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: it's going to be. I thought, this is certainly something

667
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to do now. Then I just you know

668
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: it became I think what happened is I think the

669
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: problem with the theater was that I did not go

670
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: to or did not hang out, and did not do

671
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: a lot of theater things, because if I did, I

672
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: would not have been able to bring the word I

673
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: was involved with. So I when I was not in

674
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: a relationship, I hung out in the theater and went

675
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 2: to the theater hangouts and hung out with my theater friends.

676
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 2: But when I was with someone, I did not. So

677
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: I think that I felt I sacrificed a lot of

678
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 2: conviviality with actor friends and there were my people, right.

679
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: I did that for a while, yeah, but not forever.

680
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: You and I.

681
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: I've read a quote of yours where you said something

682
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: that I have always thought and said in different words.

683
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: Yours were more eloquent. But that doing Broadway is almost

684
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: as good as the dream of show business. Oh that's

685
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: the place where it's closest to what you imagine.

686
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: That is closely And I like the life. Although I'm

687
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: a little old. No, I mean it's very hard. It's brutal,

688
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 2: that schedule, yes, but I like the life.

689
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: I like that.

690
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,959
Speaker 2: Thus, two three four hours you have after a show

691
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 2: in the barn to knight, which is really your own time.

692
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: You cannot be interrupted nobody. You know, it's two with

693
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: the morning. You know you're free. You've dispatched your effort

694
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: for the day, You've had a completion, and you're going

695
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: to renew it and begin the next day. And I

696
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: love the conviniality of it. I love the family at

697
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: the theater. I love knowing about it. I mean, I

698
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: read a lot of theater biographies when I was younger,

699
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 2: so that was just a life that I imagined being

700
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: a wonderful life. And then you have periods of time

701
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: where you worked with me where you could renew yourself.

702
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: And you know, I had that life for a number

703
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: of years and I valued it very much. Yeah, you know,

704
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: and I did a few shows since Anne, So it

705
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 2: goes on. You studied with Stella Athla, the legendary late.

706
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: I studied with her late. You know, when I first

707
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 2: came into New York, I went to her studio, and

708
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: the registrar so intimidated me that I never went back.

709
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 2: And then about when I'd been already working like fifteen years,

710
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 2: I worked with a wonderful Canadian classical actor named Nuie

711
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 2: Tran who has since going to his reward, I'm sure,

712
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 2: and he said, you all people should be studying with

713
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 2: Cella Avers. So I went and auditioned, and I actually

714
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 2: I had met with her. She didn't make an audition,

715
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 2: and I went to her classes and the first class

716
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: I was at, the penny dropped, and I thought, Holy God, almighty,

717
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 2: because I had been working for fifteen years, so that

718
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: everything she said was the penny dropping everything, because I

719
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 2: already had the reality in my so fully so that

720
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: I mean, I looked at the young people around me

721
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: who were new young students at newbies, and I thought,

722
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: they're they're not understanding what gold is it. They're not

723
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: understanding that what she's saying. And she had because she

724
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 2: had a real technique, and you can understand a lot

725
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: of it in her books. Her book is very good

726
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 2: because she was a tremendous intellect and a tremendous charismatic person. Yes,

727
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: I've had it really changed my life so much so

728
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 2: that I was on a soap opera, the only one

729
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 2: I was ever one, and I quit after one year

730
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 2: because I wanted. She was eighty at the time, and

731
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: I had studied with her very much for and I

732
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 2: took every class she offered for two years. I was

733
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 2: in every class. I was like a college student there.

734
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: Wow.

735
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: And then I got prison buddies in that, you know,

736
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 2: and that was that for a while.

737
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. How long have you and Sarah been together?

738
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: Now? We just had our eighth anniversary in January.

739
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: How wonderful and always? Is it like the biggest gift

740
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: of a lifetime to love again?

741
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, the relationship of lifetime. Well, we've been through a

742
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: lot together. Adjusting and our age difference causes a lot

743
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: of problems, not problems, but I mean it's something it's

744
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 2: an aspect that creates issues that we have to cope with.

745
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: She puts up with a lot because you know, I

746
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: don't have the energy that W used to. But I

747
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: think we're actually very well balanced and the kinds of

748
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: things we enjoy and the way we talk about things

749
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: that we do together and see and we're well lashed

750
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: in some ways and not well in another story.

751
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: Everybody is, I guess, yeah, just like life.

752
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: So but it's in working out those things that you

753
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 2: really find each other, you know, working out the places

754
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: that you are rough edges Shafe. So eight years is

755
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: a pretty good period of time. And we have a

756
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 2: shorthand it's.

757
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: A pretty good run. Honey, you go and keep going.

758
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: I love when you grabbed her zipper at that fashion

759
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: thing or whatever. You grabbed her by the zipper. I

760
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: was like, this is you. Guys look so happy all

761
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: the time, which makes me so happy to watch pictures

762
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: of you or videos.

763
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 2: She has wonderful high spirits, and you know, she's irresistible

764
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 2: and she's so fun. She's a very playful personality and

765
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: I tend to be more are an inward, and she

766
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: draws me out. So we have a good conversation. And

767
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: we were just in fratce a couple of times, and

768
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: that was just unbelievable, so thrilling.

769
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: I read that when you watch her in precarious positions

770
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: on Horror Story, it's not it's an upsetting for you. No,

771
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be for me too.

772
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 2: I can't there's some things I cannot watch, And when

773
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: she's in jeopardy, I just can't watch it. First of all,

774
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: she really prows herself into those things, and she looks

775
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: vulnerable and she's exhausted. Sometimes those things are hard to

776
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: play and sometimes you think, yeah, but all of this

777
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: is expense of spirit in the name of what I mean.

778
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: It depends what the project is, of course, of course.

779
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: And you think about actors making enormous emotional sacrifices and

780
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: you think, well, but they're playing hamlets, so yes they should. Yeah,

781
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: but you have to think sometimes what what is the material?

782
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah? Sometimes I think that too. I'll go on

783
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: something and I'll be doing something and I don't think, now,

784
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: why did I think I had to do this again? Like?

785
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: What why was I trying to prove? Taking this part?

786
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 2: At what we're used to giving up our will and

787
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: giving up our self protection a lot, and in some

788
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: ways it brings great things to us because we're very willing. Yeah,

789
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 2: And you know, I tend to like actors going a bit.

790
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 2: I think actors admire the cliche things people think about actors,

791
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: that they're jealous and suspicious of each other. Actually, I

792
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 2: don't see that, I see I don't see it either.

793
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,959
Speaker 2: I see actors being very supportive of each other. And boy,

794
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: if I love an actor, the.

795
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: No, exactly same with me. If I love someone's performance,

796
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shout it through the streets because Marco Martindale's

797
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: Oh she's fantastic, you know, I just saw Sean Hayes

798
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: Sean Hayes and good night.

799
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: Ask oh I hear that's extraordinary.

800
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: It was one of the most brilliant performances I've ever

801
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: seen by a guy on a stage. I was absolutely

802
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: blown that's in New York, now, right New York. Blown away.

803
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: I was completely blown away.

804
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: We're about to go. I will make sure we see that.

805
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: You must see it.

806
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: I heard that it's one of the greatest son No

807
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: performances ever.

808
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: It's extraordinary, it really is.

809
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to see it for sure.

810
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: You have been delightful. I thank you so much for

811
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: coming on this.

812
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: Rosie. You're the best.

813
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: Oh honey. I just love getting to talk to people

814
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: I admire so much, and I admire you your whole career.

815
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: The way you carry yourself in the world. It's a

816
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: brilliant thing, really is Alan.

817
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: Taylor, Rosie, thank you. You know I think the world

818
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: of you.

819
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: The world. Okay, well, thanks for doing this and I

820
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: will talk to you soon.

821
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me.

822
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: Holland Taylor will be right back with questions from the

823
00:41:37,960 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: audience at Holland Taylor fantastic. I mean, I just love her. Hey,

824
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: we got some questions from you guys. Here they come.

825
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: Hi, Rosie.

826
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 3: My name is Anne. I'm from Missouri. I am a

827
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 3: longtime fan and loving your podcast. These interviews are a

828
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: lot of fun and the highlight of my week to

829
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 3: listen to. I am also a librarian and I love

830
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 3: to read and love to give book recommendations, and so

831
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 3: I was wondering what book you might have read lately

832
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: that you would recommend, or if there's just a book

833
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: in general that you think everybody should read.

834
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: Thanks well, thank you, Ann, what a great question. I

835
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,919
Speaker 1: love to read, I really do. I mean, I don't

836
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: find as much time for it now as I used

837
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: to when I was younger. But I did just finish

838
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: John Irving's book The Chair Lift, and it's a big

839
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: old book. It's like a thousand pages, and you know,

840
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: I love all of his books. The Cider House Rules

841
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: had a profound effect on me when I was a

842
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: young reader, and Prayer for Meanie and Hotel New Hampshire.

843
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: There were so many John Irving books that totally stayed

844
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: with me and had a really profound impact, as I said,

845
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: on my growing up and my perspective on the world.

846
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: And I read that he lived in the Hampton, So

847
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: when we were going out to go to the nightclubs

848
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: there and the Hampton's like Obi, which is the Oak

849
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: Beach Inn, I used to look for John Irving everywhere

850
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: I went. I also thought he was one of the

851
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: most handsome men I had ever seen in my life.

852
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: So I'm so happy that in his later years now

853
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: he has written another wonderful, beefy, beautiful novel. And I

854
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,959
Speaker 1: would say he's one of my favorite authors of all time.

855
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: Another one of my favorite authors is Pat Conroy. Any

856
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: and everything that Pat Conroy wrote I adored. He was

857
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: such a voice of the South and so beautiful in

858
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: his prose. I just feel like a book you can

859
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: get of Pat Conroy you should get. And another one

860
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to just pick out of the Air and Rice,

861
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 1: who I adored as a person and a woman and

862
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: I love as a writer, and I used to wait

863
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: in line to get her to sign my books. But

864
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: there's one book that she wrote that I thought was

865
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: just spectacular, and it's called Feast of All Saints. It's

866
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: just a story about the creole culture at New Orleans

867
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 1: and it's absolutely riveting and I loved it so much.

868
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many books that I memoirs,

869
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: that I will consume memoirs voraciously. I just can't get

870
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,959
Speaker 1: enough of memoirs. But for now I would pick those

871
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: and thank you for being a librarian. And you know,

872
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: you guys have the fight coming up with you know,

873
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: the radical people who want to ban books and knowledge.

874
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: I mean, boy, and we going backwards. We are really

875
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: going backwards America, and we got to stop this. It's

876
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: too it's too reductive, and it's too bigoted.

877
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: It's too.

878
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: A sleep frankly, and nobody wants to go backwards. Nobody

879
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: wants to do that. So thank you librarians, you, Anne,

880
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: and every librarian across the country who has a love

881
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 1: for books and a desire to protect them. And read

882
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: band books people, that's my recommendation, read band books. Thank

883
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: you Anne very much for the question. And I think

884
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: we have another question today. Hit it, Hey Roe.

885
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 4: My name's Jill calling from Long Beach, California. I've been

886
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 4: a fan of yours for a really long time, since

887
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 4: a League of their own when you were best sees

888
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 4: with Madonna, because I too was besties with Madonna in

889
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 4: my mind, and now I listen to your podcast every

890
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 4: week and that's been super fun, So thank you for that.

891
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 1: I'm calling in because my wife and I have a.

892
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 4: Six year old and a three and a half year old,

893
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 4: and my six year old was recently asked by one

894
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 4: of her classmates how she could have two moms, and

895
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 4: she's sort of froze. She didn't know how to respond.

896
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 4: And we've been, i think, preparing her for these types

897
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 4: of questions her whole life indirectly. And you know, we

898
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 4: have a fantastic group of lesbian moms with their kids

899
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 4: who are all around the same age, and we get

900
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 4: together several times a week, go to the beach, we

901
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 4: have dinners, we have dance parties, we do lots of

902
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 4: fun stuff. And she knows that it's totally normal to

903
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 4: have two moms, totally normal to have two dads, same

904
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 4: thing for a mom and a dad, or being raised

905
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 4: by grandparents, or she knows that there's all types of

906
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 4: different families, but she's never had to defend her family.

907
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 4: So just wondering if you ever dealt with that with

908
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 4: your own kids, and what sort of advice you gave them,

909
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 4: and how to answer those questions without feeling defensive or

910
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 4: feeling like your kids were singled out or you know,

911
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 4: different thinks through love you.

912
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: Thanks Jill. That's such a great question. And I think

913
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: it's wonderful that you have a lot of other gay

914
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: families in your orbit, so that your kid can see

915
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: the normalcy that it's not simply her, but she is

916
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: different than most of the kids in her class in

917
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: that she has two mommies. And when Parker asked me that,

918
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: I think he was five right around that age. He said,

919
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: how come I don't have a daddy? And I said,

920
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: because you have a mommy who wants another mommy, So

921
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: if there was a daddy, you wouldn't have me as

922
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,439
Speaker 1: a mommy. We're a two mommy family. And some people

923
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: have a mommy and a daddy, and some people have

924
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: two daddies, and some people have two mommies, and some

925
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: people have even more. There's step parents, there's bonus parents,

926
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of ways. But what I told my

927
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: kid was just the fact, you know, if I was

928
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: your little girl, I wouldn't be defensive. I wouldn't be

929
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: I would just say, oh, because I have the kind

930
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: of mommies that don't want to marry a daddy. They

931
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: want to marry mommy. So they fell in love and

932
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: got married and they had us. You know. I mean

933
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: it's as simple as that. When they're kids, you know,

934
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: they don't need big, long discussions. I think they just

935
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: need something that they can say.

936
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 3: You know.

937
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: My kid also asked me that when they were little,

938
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: my kids about you know, why was I adopted? You know?

939
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: And I said, well, there was only one thing that

940
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: your tummy mommy knew, and that's that she wasn't ready

941
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: to be a mom. And so God looked inside and

942
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: he found your right mommy, and that's me, and we're

943
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: a good match, you know. So I would give them

944
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: kid like answers that would seem to satisfy the brain

945
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: of another six year old. So so that's what I

946
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: would do. I would just say that, and it seemed

947
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: to have worked. My kids definitely used that. I heard

948
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: them telling kids that sometimes when we had playdates, like

949
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: you know, when kids first started coming over when they're

950
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 1: five or six, and they go, you have two moms,

951
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: And I remember Blakey going, Yep, isn't that cool. It's like, yeah,

952
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 1: it is kind of cool, but you know you are

953
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: going to be different. Listen, if you're gay in society.

954
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: You're considered different because you're not the majority. They say

955
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: ten percent of the population is gay. I believe it's

956
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,439
Speaker 1: a lot higher than that, but that's what the statistics show,

957
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: and there are going to be different or singled out

958
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: because of that, especially in the culture as it is now,

959
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 1: where there's the vilification of anyone gay or different, and

960
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: it's it's very scary and tragic. But I would say

961
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 1: to the kid, just what I told you. I got

962
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: a mommy that wants another mommy and they fell in

963
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: love and they got married and that's all okay. So

964
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: I hope that works for you, and good luck to

965
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: you and your family and your and just raise them

966
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: in the light, raise them in the truth, tell them

967
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: what's going on, and understand their feelings. You know, it's

968
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: not easy to be different in your first grade class,

969
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: So have compassion as we move on through raising them. Right.

970
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: That's my little grandmotherly advice. I hope that you liked it.

971
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: Thanks for writing in, Jill. I appreciate it. And if

972
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: any of you want to leave a voice memo, just

973
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: like Anne and Jill did, I would love to hear

974
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: from you. We pick a couple of questions every week

975
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: and we do them here on our podcast. So all

976
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: you have to do is write to Onward Rosie at

977
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: gmail dot com and leave a little voice memo for

978
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 1: me and we might put it on the program here. Hey,

979
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: thank you everybody. Guess who's up next week? One of

980
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 1: my favorite favorite favorite shows on TV is Somebody Somewhere.

981
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: It's on HBO and it stars Bridget Effett with a

982
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: stellar cast, perfectly cast show, a beautiful, beautiful show on HBO.

983
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: And Bridget who is an lbgt QIA queer ally and

984
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: always has been her whole life and career. She made

985
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: a living for a long time as kind of a

986
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: body cabaret singer and now she's killing it as an

987
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: actress on HBO. So, Bridget Everett, we'll be on the

988
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: podcast next Tuesday. Look for that on Onward right here

989
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: and iHeart thank you everybody. We'll catch you next week.