1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Jason 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: Kelly and I'm Carol Masser. Welcome to the Bloomberg Business 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: Week Extra. It's our weekly podcast bringing you an in 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: depth interview you will not hear anywhere else. And this 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: week we've got Jason Flam. He has been in charge 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: of three major music industry labels. He's now running Lava Records. 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: He's also spending his time on criminal justice reform. I 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: checked out some of the things that you've done online. 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: You describe yourself as someone who has gone from being 10 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: a drug addicted college dropout to being leader in the 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: criminal justice reform movement. That's quite a leap. Yeah, well, 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: I usually started my speeches by saying, this is is the 13 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: story of my crazy journey from want to be Jimmy 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: Hendricks to chairman and CEO three the biggest record comings 15 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,639 Speaker 1: in the world. But more importantly, from being a drug 16 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: addicted college drop out to a pioneer in the field 17 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: of criminal justice reform. So it has been a very 18 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: interesting journey. I start with music. I mean, just as 19 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: a backdrop, I grew up that my dad was Joe Flam, 20 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: who some of you probably knew some of you probably 21 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: paid very hefty fees to scatting, so I appreciate that Um. 22 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: And if he was here, he would probably think, well, 23 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: legendary corporate, legendary corporate attorney, amazing son of immigrants who 24 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: spoke no English, came to America penniless, homeless um, and 25 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: obviously he succeeded beyond anybody's wildest expectations. I, on the 26 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: other hand, Um smoked pot and grew a lot of 27 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: hair and played the guitar as a kid because I 28 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: didn't make the sports team, so I decided that that 29 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: would be my other way to, you know, have social status. 30 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: So you go to mom and dad and you say, 31 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to career in business. And I know 32 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: you've talked about your mom graduate Cornell. My mom graduate, 33 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: My mad graduated Cornell when she was eighteen, which she 34 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: used to remind me of about three times a week, 35 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, as I was like, what was that, mom? 36 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: And uh, and your dad's a legendary, legendary attorney, and 37 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: you say, I want to do music, right, So I 38 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: didn't want to go to college. So my dad comes 39 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: to my room one day, which was exciting because I 40 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: didn't even know. He knew where my room was because 41 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: he was always at the office. So he comes to 42 00:01:58,720 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: my room with Dan. He says, I got a deal, 43 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: you kid. I go, what's that? Dad? He says, you 44 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: got a year to become a rock star. Otherwise you 45 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: gotta go to college. I was like, great, Dad, I 46 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: don't even need a whole year. This is awesome, right. 47 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: He goes back and tells my mom. My mom, who 48 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: had never cursed before in her life until that day, says, 49 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: he's gonna live in my house. He's got to work 50 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: or go to school. So my dad, arguably the greatest 51 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: negotiative of the twentieth century, had to come back to 52 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: my room and undo the deal he had just made 53 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: with his son. So great, Can I just say kudos 54 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: to the power of your mom. Yes, yes she was. 55 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 1: She was the boss and uh so, anyway, he made 56 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: some calls. He called Arthur Lyman, Arthur new Steve Ross. 57 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: They got me an interview at Warner Communications. I walked 58 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: in high as a kite, sat down and slump down 59 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: in the chair, and they said, you're going to work 60 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: Atlantic Records. They gave me a staple gun, some double 61 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: sided tape, a roller led Zeppelin posters at a ladder, 62 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: and off I went to record stoes, putting up posters 63 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: and records. I fell in love with the business, and 64 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: you loved it, loved it, and you wanted to do more. Well, 65 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: my dad told me when I was a kid, he said, 66 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: and he told me my brother said, do whatever you 67 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: want to do, try to be the best at it, 68 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: but just make the world a better place. He said, 69 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: that's the only definition of success that matters. I've passed 70 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: it on to my kids as well, And so I 71 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: knew I was never gonna be the best guitar player. 72 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: At this point, it was clear. The new first band 73 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: Halen record just came out. I was like, I might 74 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: as gonna try to dunk a basketball with my three 75 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: is Jewish vertical leap. So I said, this practicing is 76 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: not working for me. But I could become the best 77 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: at this. I could discover other artists, And I thought, 78 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: my taste. You know, everyone thinks they're tasting music is great, 79 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: facing you do. You all think you know your what's 80 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: best and so, But what made you think that you 81 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: had something in it that you could go out and 82 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: find artists? Yeah? Yeah, classic Jewish, But um, I loved 83 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: music and I wanted to be a part of it, 84 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: and once I knew I couldn't be a rock star, 85 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to be involved. Well, something you said, and 86 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: I recommend everybody watched um, something that Jason did with 87 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: the Nantucket project. It's twenty minutes fifty two seconds and 88 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: it will make you want to do something. Um. But 89 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: you said in that you explain what luck really is 90 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: and you say it's preparation plus skill plus perseverance. You've 91 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: gotta have persevere right, Well, that's my thing, and you 92 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: know preparation. Everyone knows the old adage preparation plus skillies 93 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: was lucked. I think it's preparation plus skill plus perseverance 94 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: equels luck because I'm sure many of you are. All 95 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: of you have had that experience too. When you had 96 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: your first great idea, everyone who was supposed to know 97 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: better told you you're a schmuck, You're an idiot. That 98 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. It's not gonna work right, And 99 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: then you had to like keep knocking on the door 100 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: and keep banging and until you finally, you know, convinced 101 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: whoever it was the decision maker that you were right, 102 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: or else you left and when it did it yourself 103 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: or whatever it is, because at the end of the day, 104 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: if you don't and and my dad taught me that too, 105 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: He taught me everything. Um, you know, you have to 106 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: keep banging on that door until it opens, because it 107 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: doesn't just open for you. So your first band, Zebra 108 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: was a hit. Um talk to us about him because 109 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: anybody who knows anything about the music industry, this guy 110 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: is a legend. Yeah, am a Urigan was the founder 111 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: of Atlantic Record, legendary, son of Turkish ambassador and just 112 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: an amazing are you died? Incredible guy signed everybody from Racharles, 113 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones, to read, the Franklin, etcetera, etcetera, mentor 114 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: for you, sponsored for you, all of the above. I mean, 115 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: you know he's sort of I mean he was. He 116 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: was just a mythical character. It was amazing. And I'll 117 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: never forget the first time I when I finally got 118 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: my job doing A and R right, which is Artists 119 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: and represors means as a talent scout Atlantic Record. When 120 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: I first got my job, twenty thousand bucks. That gave 121 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: me a raise to this is incredible. Now I get 122 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: paid to listen to music. I remember the drummer from 123 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: my high school band was at my office and we 124 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: were listening to music, smoking weed and go and this 125 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: is incredible. I get paid to listen to music, right. 126 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: And there's a knock on the door at a tiny 127 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: little office and was on its secretary they call him 128 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: secretaries back then assistant sorry for the political and correctest. 129 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: So her name is Jenny Lynn. She rocks on the door. 130 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: She pokes her head in and now I'm freshly stoned, 131 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: and she goes, alm, it would like to see you. 132 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: And I was like, you're fully and then he looks 133 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: in and goes, no, she's not. And I was like, WHOA, 134 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: give me some zine r. I was scrambling it and 135 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: it was a crazy thing. And that was the first 136 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: time I actually spent time with him in his office. 137 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: But he I mean, what did he say to you? 138 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: It was crazy. He had this guy in his office 139 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: who looked like he was I lived on the streets 140 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: and he was he smelled bad, he was dirty, and 141 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: he was pulling cigarette butts out of the astrai and 142 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: relighting them. But this guy, Almin, had met at a 143 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: club and he had some new kind of music that 144 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: Alma thought was cool and he wanted my opinion on it. 145 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: The whole thing was just a very trippy, surreal experience. 146 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: So figured out what happened to that guy. More music. 147 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: Twisted Sister considered a joke in the music industry, but 148 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: you got them, You got them going, Oh I love 149 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: Twist and Sister. I just and bosses were like, no way, 150 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: oh way, oh they were, they were. They were considered 151 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: a joke. But to me, I would go see them. 152 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: There were three thousand kids screaming Twisted Sister with air 153 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: this in the here. I was like, joke or no joke. 154 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: These kids are telling me the answer. I don't need 155 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: any more research than that, right. They all had the 156 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: Twisted Sister t shirts on and stuff like that, And 157 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: so yeah, the joke was on everyone else because that 158 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: album sold six million copies, and I gave the first 159 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: I gave the platinum album to my dad on the 160 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: condition that he hanged in his office and didn't of 161 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: course hung in his office his whole career. There's a 162 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: lesson there again. It goes back to perseverance. Yeah, I 163 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: mean that one was, you know, really because you had 164 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: to kind of backdoor it INSS. I had to I 165 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: had to get the guy who were in the our 166 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: English company just sign it because my boss hated them 167 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: so much. He used to throw me out of his 168 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: office every day every time I bring it up to him. 169 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: But I was in love with it. And you know, 170 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: he finally said, if you ever mentioned the name Twisted 171 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: Sister to me again, you'll never work in the the 172 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: day in the music industry. I was like, but you 173 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: still did it. Well, yeah, I went around him, like 174 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: I said, I got the guy in England to sign, 175 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: and then it was the record came out like a 176 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: ci age and nobody worked and nobody talked about it 177 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: until it's sold six million, until it's sold. And then 178 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: and then my boss, to his credit, turned around and said, 179 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: you know what, you were right, and and the next 180 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: record we really put the hammer down and it was 181 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: the second one that sold the six million. Okay, so 182 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: why you start making more money. But everybody in any industry, 183 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: it's not just the music industry, can deal with crazy 184 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: type or difficult people, or people didn't get sleep. And 185 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: you know, what's your face, like, what did you do 186 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: to navigate this? Because it sounds like it was often 187 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: NonStop I'm dealing with strong personalities, really talented individuals. Um. 188 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I have a story that that really signs 189 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: a light on what it's like dealing with these popping 190 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: rock stars that you read about in the tabloids. Um. 191 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: And you know what, I'm just gonna go ahead and 192 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: tell it. Go ahead, go ahead. If you don't know anyway, 193 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: I have a stand up for this. So it's a 194 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: story about a guy who's in a he's in a 195 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: hot air balloon and he's lost, so he lowers himself 196 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: down till he's about thirty ft above this field and 197 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: he sees the guy standing in the field, so he 198 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: yells down. He says, excuse me, I'm lost. Can you 199 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: tell me where I am? Guy looks up and he goes, yeah, 200 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: you're in a hot air balloon about thirty ft above 201 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: this field. So guy looks back down. He says, well, 202 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: that's great, but if you don't mind me asking, are 203 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: you a record executive? The guy looks up and he goes, yeah, yeah, 204 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: but how did you know that? And the guy says, well, 205 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: because everything you've just told me is true, but it's 206 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: of no use to anyone. Guy looks back up and 207 00:08:58,080 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: he says, well, if you don't mind me asking are 208 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: you order artists? And the guy goes, yeah, I am. 209 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: But how did you know that? He says, well, because 210 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: you don't know where you are, where you're going. You're 211 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: in exactly the same spot you where when we first met. 212 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: But now all of a sudden, it's my faults come on. 213 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: That's my life. That's why I'm in therapy. It's not 214 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: an easy way to go. I'm telling you there's easier 215 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: ways to make a living. Trust me. So talk a 216 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: little bit about this one, because this was another thing 217 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: where you persevere. Kid rock this was another one. Three 218 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: albums didn't sell. He had a thousand haters. Oh yeah. 219 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: So so when I discovered kid rock, this kid that 220 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: worked for me the many Carpett looked exactly like George Costanza. 221 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: Strangely enough, he comes to see me and he says 222 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: he has me a CD for this kid. He goes, 223 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: I think I should go see him. I go, okay, 224 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: So he goes to Cleveland. He comes back and said 225 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: how was He goes, I don't know, Buss. He goes, 226 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, there's only forty people at the show, but 227 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: he comes out of a coffin to start the set 228 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: and he's got a midget on stage, cursing and rapping. 229 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: I said, I think I better go see this from myself. 230 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: So I went to Detroit and this we had fift people, 231 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: that's where he was from, and the show was incredible 232 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: and I ended up signing him. And uh, you know, 233 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: when the record came out, nobody everybody hated him, like 234 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: you said, Like press hated him, radio hated him, other 235 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: artists hated him, MTV hated him. There was nowhere to go, 236 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: and I finally broke him. You know, my dad nothing 237 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: My dad taught me was like he said, to be 238 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: some of the key to successes in business being friendly. 239 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, well I can. I think 240 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: I'm really bad at being like it's like laughable, so um, 241 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: but I'm good at being friendly, so um. So I 242 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: I ended up breaking kid Rock as a result of 243 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: a golf game I had with one of the key 244 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: taste makers, a decision makers at MTV, and then I 245 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: convinced him. On the way home, I put the record 246 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: onto my in my tahoe with the stock star in 247 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: my car. I controlled the volume in his office. He 248 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: listened to it like a church mouse, and I played 249 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: it loud five songs and he says to me, this 250 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: guy is going to save the world. Um and he 251 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: MTV ended up breaking him. And of course when the 252 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: when the record went platinum, I took out this ad 253 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: in Billboard. Interestingly enough, it ran directly opposite to Christian 254 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: radio charts, which made me really happy. And then juxtaposition 255 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: is everything. And then um, when it hit ten million, 256 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: I just moved the finger over and stuck another zero 257 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: in there and read it again. So this was your 258 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: advice for your dad, just be friendly. Yeah, he didn't 259 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: say anything about Yeah, that was different. You know when 260 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: they want asked when you go to Virgin So I 261 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: ran that. And it's interesting because it actually did set 262 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: a tone because the company was the coldest company in 263 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: the business. I hadn't had a hit since the Spice Girls, 264 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: and so you know, that really helped to set you know, 265 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: turn things around. And it was great because I've been 266 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: fired from Atlantic over a poem I wrote and uh, 267 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: that's a crazy story too, but whatever, and m and 268 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: the people that Atlantic, a lot of people Atlantic put 269 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: that poster on their walls sort of as a silent protest. 270 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: So it was kind of fun and Um, yeah, so 271 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: just trying to have a little pizzazz, a little fun industry, 272 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: being creative. And I'm just curious how that impacted you 273 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: as a leader and how you dealt with individuals. Um 274 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, look, I want to be them, 275 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: and um you know I have I think I gives 276 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: me a certain degree of empathy, and um, you know, 277 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: I want to do a good job for them, of course, 278 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: because their careers are in our hands in a very 279 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: real way. Um. And it's in music indutories like a 280 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle. I mean, it's so crazy. There's you know, 281 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: up until the iTunes recently they closed iTunes of course, 282 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: two weeks ago, but up until then, there were sixty 283 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: million songs on iTunes, right, so trying to get attention 284 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: in a world that crowded. In fact, there's even a 285 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: website called forgot ify dot com. You probably haven't heard 286 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: of that, but forgot if that's a real thing. Forgot 287 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: if I is a website that has all the songs 288 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: that have never been listened to on Spotify, not even once. 289 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: I imagine that you're gonna make a record and not 290 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: even your mom listens to it. It's so I like 291 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: forgot if I six of the song on the spot, 292 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: if I've never been heard by anyone, Have you found 293 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: any good artists? No? But I like listening to it 294 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: because it gives me. It gives me a sense of 295 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: power because once you listen to it, it comes off 296 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: the site by definition. And I think they should send 297 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: a text message to somebody say smuck, good news. But 298 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: one player. All right. So I said at the beginning 299 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: that you have had quite a path, and I want 300 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about your current chapter. I 301 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: think it's been your priority since ninety two, and that 302 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: is criminal justice reform, right, And I was lucky to 303 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: come here and speak at the Bloomberg Qualities of it 304 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: UM with a woman named Nora Jackson. So um, so yeah, 305 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: I'm the founding board member of the Innocence Project. Um. 306 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: I've been working on criminal justice reform for twenty five years. Uh. 307 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: It is my my mission, my my calling to reverse 308 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: this disastrous, failed social policy of mass incarceration that has 309 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: taken us to a place where we've gone from three 310 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people in prison thirty five years ago to 311 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: two point two million now, not including the four and 312 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: a half million that we have on supervision, the parole 313 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: and probation, and it's it's absolutely it's disgusting. I mean, like, 314 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: you know, we we we lock up black people in 315 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: America at six times the rate of South Africa at 316 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: the height of a part tide per capita. We lock 317 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: up we lock up our own people, Americans right at 318 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: fourteen times a right per capita of Japan, and our 319 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: crime rates are the same. So you know, if none 320 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: of it makes any sense, and it's business, and I 321 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: would encourage anyone here to look at your portfolio and 322 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 1: divest from any company that's involved with private prisons or 323 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: anything that profits off of human caging, because let's face it, 324 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: that's what it is. And it's it's just, uh, you know, 325 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: it's what I want to do. And of course it's 326 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: even worse when you're dealing with people who are actually innocent. 327 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: So UM the Innocence Project has now exonerated a four 328 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: hundred people on with the n a UM people who 329 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: are factually innocent, twenty one I who have been sentenced 330 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: to death UM and so it's it's a it's a 331 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: monstrous challenge, but it's something that I take extremely seriously, 332 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: and it's a it's a big part of my life 333 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: every day. So I started this podcast called Wrongful Conviction 334 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: to tell the stories of people who are wrongfully convicted 335 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: and sentenced to death or life in prison or whatever 336 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: else and served decades for crimes they didn't commit. Sunny Jacobs, 337 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: Tony Wright, Angel Gonzalez, Dusty Turner, and Nora Jackson. I 338 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: listened to her story this weekend. Raymond Santani, he's one 339 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: of the five wrongfully convicted from Potential Park five. Um. 340 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: I had a question, and I wrote to myself, why 341 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: do you do it? Well, that's pretty stupid to ask, 342 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: because it's the right thing to do. But why has 343 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: it become such a personal mission for you? It seems 344 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: to be a driving life force. You've been doing it, 345 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: you're still doing You're in the music industry, you're still 346 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: running your company. But I don't know, it's it's I 347 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: call it selfish altruism. I mean I do, and I 348 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: think anyone who's involved, and I'm sure everyone has their 349 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: own things that you do, they're they're you know, good 350 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: for the world, and it makes you feel good. And 351 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: if it makes you feel good, then you do more 352 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: of it. It makes me feel useful. It makes me 353 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: feel purposeful. Um. Being around these most extraordinary people who 354 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: have been through this unimaginable ordeal in the American goulag 355 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: system and come out with grace and hope and kindness 356 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: and optimism gives me, uh, gratitude in my attitude. So 357 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: it makes we want to do more. And they are 358 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: the most extraordinary people and they didn't do anything wrong 359 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: and they ended up in this horrendous like like I said, 360 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: un imagined, there's no word to describe what they've gone through. 361 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: So um, so it makes me so I want to 362 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: tell the stories, and on the podcast we tell the stories, 363 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: and in so doing we educate the public as to 364 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: how these things happen, so that when anyone serves ends 365 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: up serving on a jury, they'll be more woke and 366 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: they'll be able to process the information that's being given 367 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: to them in that courtroom in a way that is 368 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, more uh well just a more uh you know, educated, 369 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: whatever the word is. I'm looking for a way and hopefully, 370 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, prevent as many wrongful convictions from happening in 371 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: the future. Is there some feeling too that, I mean, 372 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: you've done really well and you have a platform and 373 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: you have a voice that you can maybe give a 374 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: voice to somebody else. Yeah, I mean, of course I 375 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: want and I've always wanted to help the helpless. I 376 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: mean that's something that grew up. My dad taught me 377 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: that as well. And you know, it's you know, it's 378 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: hard to imagine anyone who's more helpless than someone who's 379 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: stuck in that hole right in the in somewhere and 380 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: what we don't see, we don't hear, we don't know, 381 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: and they're just stuck there and nobody, you know, to 382 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: throw away the kid, and they're forgotten about. And if 383 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: they're innocent, someone needs to take their side and imagine 384 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: being in their place. It's it's you know, you take 385 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: you take their side. And you also are now taking 386 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: the side of those who don't have voices and teaching 387 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: about that to kids. And I want to kind of 388 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about this. You wrote a book 389 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: for kids with your daughter. Yeah, and everyone's getting one. Yeah, 390 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: there's a file outside to make sure on your way 391 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: out you grab one. It's called Lulu is a rhinoceros um. 392 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: And you are working on, you know, teaching kids about inclusivity, individuality, tolerance. Yes, exactly. 393 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: So I wrote this book after I came back from Africa, 394 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: where I worked with an organization called VETO Veterans in 395 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: Power to Protect African Wildlife who are working to save 396 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: the rhinos. And I came back. I was sitting on 397 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: the couch with Lulu, my bulldog, and I was telling 398 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: her about my trip. Because you talk to your dogs, 399 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm looking at you. I know what you do and 400 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: uh no, no, don't do drugs. I gave all that 401 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: in the eighties. Um, so that's really true. So so 402 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: this was a sober conversation and uh and I was 403 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: telling about my trivor Lewis Hays to me while I'm 404 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: a anoceros too. I was like, what are you talking about. 405 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: You're obviously a dog, You're furry and small, and you're 406 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: on my couch. And she goes, can't you see I 407 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: have short legs, a big body of flathead. I burped 408 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: and snore and fart like a rhino. I'm a rhino. 409 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: I was like, well, if you're a rhino, let's tell 410 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: the story. So I thought, if we can create a 411 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 1: little hero for kids who feel left out, put down, 412 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: or bullied because of the way they look, the way 413 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: they feel or the way they are, then let's do that. 414 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: So Lulu's trans species. She's proud of it, you know, 415 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: she's it's it's her struggle to find love and acceptance 416 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: in the world where she's judged by her physical appearance 417 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 1: instead of what's in her heart. And so it's been 418 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: in a wonderful thing. Actually today I'm happy that we 419 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: just signed as Leo was Scholastic. They put it. They 420 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: took sixty five tho copies of putting it all the schools. 421 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: It's been on Ellen Norah Jones has a soggle about it. 422 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: And uh, can I ask us something? Do you ever sleep? Um? Yeah, 423 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: not that Mackenzie. Where's Mackenzie? I needed help? Um? I 424 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: sleep a little once in a while. Then I do 425 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: power napps. What's your favorite app? I don't have one. 426 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: I don't know my favorite app? Yeah? Instagram? Forgot if 427 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: I forgot? Okay, I don't put you to sleep? That 428 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: song is terrible? All right? Two last things I should 429 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: put And everyone's getting a book. And uh, I've been 430 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: doing readings everywhere in schools, churches. I do with my 431 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: d I wrote it with my daughter, who's remember of 432 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: the LGBZ l g b z Q community. Um and 433 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: it was a real thrill to write it with her. 434 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: We know have an animated series in the works as well, 435 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 1: so it's really exciting. The last thing, Yeah, the last thing, 436 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: last thing. Two last things first as serious. So you've 437 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: built up so many different things, music companies, artists, the 438 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: Innocence Project, Wrongful Conviction. I'm just curious to our members 439 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: here in the audience who are building a lot of 440 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: things right now. You know, how do you keep the 441 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: perseverance going when sometimes it can be difficult? Um? I don't. 442 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: I think everybody here knows as much about that because 443 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: I mean, none of these people got where they are 444 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: without having to knock down a lot of obstacles, right. 445 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think success is handed to anyone. 446 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: Um So, unless you're in air any errors or heiress 447 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: is here. I didn't think. I didn't think so because 448 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: they're not here. So um so yeah, they're they're they're 449 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: in their brown zone right now, um so, um So yeah, 450 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think anyone here needs my advice 451 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: on that I can take there. That was Jason Flat 452 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Bloomberg Business Week extra, be sure 453 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: you did to Bloomberg Business Week Radio Live Monday through 454 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: Friday at gpm Wall Street Time. I'm Carol Masser and 455 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: I've Jason Kelly. This is Bloomberg