1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Good morning, Peepsen. Welcome to WOKP Daily with me your 2 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: girl Daniel Moody recording from the home Bunker the folks. Today, 3 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: as always, we get into a conversation with our friend, 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. And importantly in 5 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: the show notes for today, you will see a link 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: to a very long but incredibly informative expose done by 7 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: the Washington Post on how life expectancy in the United 8 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: States is decreasing and decreasing rapidly, and how it is 9 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: falling along racial lines, economic lines, and political lines, and 10 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: the fact that in the Midwest and in the South, 11 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: Jonathan wrote a book called Dying of Whiteness, and that 12 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: is exactly what is happening. Whereas those people that are 13 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: living in the interior of the country are more likely 14 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: and I mean like forty nine percent more likely to 15 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: die early than those that are living on the coasts 16 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: and in urban areas. That is a reverse trend. And 17 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, Jonathan and I get into a conversation. He 18 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: has his new edition of Dying of Whiteness will come 19 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: out in February of next year, twenty twenty four, and 20 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: he argues that we need both a health strategy and 21 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: a political strategy. I however, am at a point where 22 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: I just feel exasperated by these stories and wanting to 23 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: try and save people that are not willing to save themselves. Look, 24 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: I understand the breakdown where they are imposing right. The 25 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: right is imposing their will and their desire on the 26 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: rest of the country, whether you're talking about abortion or 27 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: you're talking about access to guns. That blue states right 28 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: with our governors clearly don't have as much power and 29 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: authority as red state governors do, according to the Supreme Court. 30 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: And so when we look and we see this unraveling 31 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: of America as it is measured against its pure countries, 32 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: the question is what can be done and what should 33 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: be done? Or are we at the stage where we're 34 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: just like, fuck them, let them eat kke literally with 35 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 1: all the fucking starch and the you know chemicals and 36 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: you know high fat content and all the things that 37 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: are going to kill them. Because when Michelle Obama said 38 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: let's move, they said, let's sit down and give kids 39 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: more dessert. Right So, right now, as we are at 40 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: this place of great divide in this country, that just 41 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: gets worse each and every week, each every month, each 42 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: and every year. And you know, when I see these articles, 43 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: a part of me sure wants to feel bad, But 44 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: then the other part is, just like for those people 45 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: who do have means, this country is going to see, 46 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: and I say this at the end of the conversation 47 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: with Jonathan, a great exodus, A great exodus is going 48 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: to happen from the United States of America where people 49 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: that can afford to leave will leave. You know, maybe 50 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: they'll keep their businesses here, but they'll live in other 51 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: countries part of the time, and this place will end 52 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: up looking like the movie Lsem where there is just 53 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: havoc and disease and people are destitute and jobless and 54 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: dying in the streets. Right, because once Republicans are able 55 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: to do away with every single social safety net, what 56 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: stops this country from looking like underdeveloped purposefully underdeveloped nations 57 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: is our social safety nets, is our government. So once 58 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: that is hollowed out, right, people who have been able 59 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: to keep themselves quote unquote safe behind gated communities and 60 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: all of these things won't because the moment that they 61 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: step outside, guess what they're going to see. And much 62 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: in the same way that during COVID at the height 63 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: of COVID, which is still around because I know at 64 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: least several people that have contracted COVID over the last 65 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: couple of months. What we saw is that there is 66 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: no connectedness right around public health. It was every person 67 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: for themselves because of the greed and the lies and 68 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: just the hate that was spread from the right. So 69 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: when I look at this story and I asked Jonathan 70 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 1: today about his thoughts on it, because he literally wrote 71 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: the book on it, and rewrote the book on it, 72 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: where America is headed, I don't think at this stage 73 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: can be averted. And that's the conversation that we have 74 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: coming up next. Folks. You know that whenever I have 75 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: the opportunity to speak with our in house doctor, doctor 76 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: Jonathan Metzel, I am always thrilled, particularly when the Washington 77 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: Post comes out with a really disturbing expose where Jonathan, 78 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: as I said the other day with my co host 79 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: jajahat Ali, you are a soothsayer. You like you knew 80 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: what was up when you wrote Dying of Whiteness, And 81 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: it's just as if all of the reporting and research 82 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: is following what you had already said. So right now 83 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: there is a expose in the Washington post entitled Dying Early, 84 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: America's Life expectancy crisis. An epidemic of chronic illness is 85 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: killing us too soon? And Jonathan, I'll just start out 86 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: with saying that the opening graphs of this piece are 87 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: extraordinarily disturbing because it goes to say that essentially we 88 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: hit our peak where life expectancy in the United States 89 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: was growing. We hit our peak at around twenty fourteen, 90 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: at around seventy eight point nine years of age was 91 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: the life expectancy, and at that time we thought that 92 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: it was going to continue growing. Aside from the pandemic, 93 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: which obviously was a major hit to life expectancy and 94 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: played out along racial and economic lines, what this article 95 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: says is that those people that are living in the Midwest, 96 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: that are living in the interior of America are almost 97 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: right now forty nine percent more likely to die early. 98 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: And it is extraordinary. And I just want to get 99 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: your initial reactions to what is the quiet pandemic that 100 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: has been happening in this country since you know the 101 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: twenty teens. 102 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was glad to see this article published. 103 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: It obviously builds on a lot of stuff that I've 104 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: been working on for a long time. And the shocking 105 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: revelation is that life expectancy is not just some kind 106 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: of biological inevitability. Like it's not like people live longer 107 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: because we just are smarter or live longer on the earth. 108 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: The reason people live longer is because of access to 109 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: healthcare and knowledge of prevention and warding off infectious disease 110 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: and workplace safety protections and all the things that have 111 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: gone into basically, I mean, if you look at it, 112 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: I looked at this for dying of whiteness, but it's 113 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: pretty incredible if you just compare like the early twentieth 114 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: century to now, or the eighteen fifties till now, when 115 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: we started doing vaccines and realizing that stuff like asbestos 116 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: kills you and workplace safety protections, it wasn't just a 117 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: little blip in terms of life expectancy, like people lived 118 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 2: like two decades longer when we started implementing effective public health. 119 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: Basically that was structural, government linked mandated because otherwise your 120 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 2: workplace is going to be really unsafe and you're going 121 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: to die of an infectious illness that you don't have 122 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: a immunization against, and all those other factors. So it's 123 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: not a mystery that if you just revolt, you know, 124 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: roll back those advances, you're going to revert back to 125 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 2: earlier life expectancies, which is that people live about forty 126 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: nine years, you know, on average, or something like that. 127 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: And then of course, if you add in other things 128 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:29,599 Speaker 2: like having to carry bad you know, a dangerous pregnancy, 129 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: to term women's reproductive health, all these things, and so 130 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: all these things contributed to rises in life expressing. And 131 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: what's remarkable about this is that there aren't really many 132 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: other examples of industrialized, advanced countries having not only a 133 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: fall in life expectancy, but also a fall in life 134 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: expectancy of the demographic majority group, right, White Americans, who 135 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: were suffering from this the most. And so that was 136 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: kind of where I started with Dying Whiteness, and I've 137 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 2: got the new edition of Dying of Whiteness coming out 138 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: February fourth. And part of what I argue is that 139 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: life expectancy is one metric, but you have to see 140 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: that people, just like I argued the pandemic, kind of 141 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 2: replayed it again. Life expectancy is just one metric. But 142 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 2: the metric that White America and the Red States are 143 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: playing with is power they're trading decades of life for power. 144 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: So part me, let me read you this piece, which 145 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: kind of which speaks to what you just said. In 146 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: the Washington Post article, they write, sickness and death are 147 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: scarring entire communities in much of the country. The geographical 148 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: footprint of early death is vast. In a quarter of 149 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: the nation's counties, mostly in the South and mid West, 150 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: working age people are dying at a higher rate than 151 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: forty years ago. The trail of death is so prevalent 152 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: that a person could go from Virginia to Louisiana and 153 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: then up to Kansas by traveling entirely within counties where 154 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: death rates are higher than they were when Jimmy Carter 155 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: was president. And they go on to say this this 156 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: phenomenon is exasperated by the country's economic, political, and racial divides. 157 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: America is increasingly a country of haves and have nots, 158 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: measured not by bank accounts and property values, but also 159 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: by vital signs and grave markers. Dying prematurely, the Post found, 160 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: has become the most telling measure of the nation's inequality. 161 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, the crazy thing is like, we're 162 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: choosing it right, We're voting for it. So, I mean, 163 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 2: I don't know. I have a very particular relationship to this, 164 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 2: which is just it's terrifying. But I don't know. I 165 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: got a couple of paragraphs into the article, and I, 166 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 2: to be totally asked, I didn't even finish the article yet. 167 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: I will do it right after we talk. But it's 168 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: just that you just think, like I guess it's crazy 169 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 2: because like what I learned in medical school was that 170 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: self preservation and longevity for yourself and your family and 171 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: your community was the core human like evolutionary drive. But 172 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: people are voting for this, they're choosing it, and they're 173 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: choosing it like really actively and knowingly. Like it's not 174 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: like I interviewed people and dying of whiteness who were 175 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,479 Speaker 2: who are not aware. 176 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: As I'm reading this right, and I you know, I 177 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: often go back to this movie that I say is 178 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: a terrible movie, but like it really is one of 179 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: those sci fi films that is just like that could 180 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: never happen, and then you're like, oh no, this is happening, 181 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: and it's Elysium with Matt Damon and in the movie, 182 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: Earth has completely been extracted of all of its value. 183 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: There's sickness there's death, there's famine. It's everywhere. And in 184 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: this place in outer space, Lyssum is where there is 185 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: only happiness and health and all of these things. And 186 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: you can get a lottery ticket to go there, or 187 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: you can be born into it. Right. But it's this 188 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: idea that it isn't just about the advent of new 189 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: technologies that allow us to screen for cancer earlier, or 190 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: to take medication that allows us to live with you know, 191 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: or to decrease hypertension or manage our diabetes or all 192 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: of these things. It's exactly what you said, that this 193 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: is an active choice that these white people in the 194 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: Midwest and in the South that are now dying at 195 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: a higher And this is not to say, of course, 196 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: it falls along racial lines as well, But what is 197 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: wild to me is that the people that have been 198 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: actively voting for their own demise are the ones that 199 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: are dying at a higher rate. And I just like, 200 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: it's at one time shocking, but also I go back, Jonathan, 201 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: and I think about Michelle Obama in the White House. 202 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: Let's move was her initiative to combat childhood obesity. What 203 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: did the Republican Party do, right? They said, let them 204 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: eat dessert? They said that fruits and vegetables, now, we 205 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: don't need them, right, that they were voting for pink 206 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: slime and lunch meat as opposed to cafeterias filled with 207 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: fresh food and vegetables. That's what the Republican Party was doing. 208 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: And so when I read that paragraph and I think 209 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: to myself, oh, it's the political climate, I said, it's 210 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: a climate you created, you know. 211 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: As I mentioned, I've got the new edition, Edition two 212 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: point zero of Dying of Whiteness comes out or a 213 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 2: fourth And and what I argue in the new addition 214 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: is that this is actually like one of the most 215 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: terrifying findings the pandemic. And these findings, like what the 216 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: Post is finding, are among the most terrifying findings for 217 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: the future of our country, right because the fact that 218 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: people are knowingly are people, The fact that people are 219 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: knowingly doing this means that we have to think outside 220 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: our common assumption about like public health or communal health 221 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: or something like that. That people are doing this, they're murders, right, 222 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 2: we have to think of these people as murders, as 223 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: as foot soldiers or something like that. But that in 224 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: a way, I don't know. We thought we were kind 225 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: of all in this together, but the pandemic and all 226 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: these factors, like the idea, all the core assumptions of 227 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: public health are things like herd immunity, the idea that 228 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: everybody works together to lower infection risk. So many communal 229 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: Americans are based on people working together to improve wages 230 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: or longevity or something like that. But half the country 231 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: is not working all that model right now. And so 232 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: I guess the question for me, and I'd love to 233 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: discuss this going forward, is what do you do with 234 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: that knowledge? Right? What do you do with that knowledge? 235 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: Because half the country, and it's not a surprise, but 236 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: they are really not working on that communal model in 237 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: a way, which undergirds like the entire public health apparatus 238 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: of this of everything we know in a way, And 239 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: so what do you do with that information? Because the 240 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: most terrifying part, which I don't think the posts. I mean, 241 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: I'll read the full thing later because it makes me 242 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: too upset to read this stuff now, but I'll say 243 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: the most important part is like what do we do 244 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: with these kind of stories? Right? Our natural tendency is 245 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: to say, well, look, everything's so backward in red states, 246 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: and everything's much healthier in blue states. But you have 247 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: to recognize that the ideology that you're up against actually 248 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: the goal is to subvert blue states. It's not just 249 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: to keep bad health in red states. And so an 250 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: example is, for example, the Bruin case for the Supreme 251 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 2: Court about guns. We knew that bad gun policies were 252 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: killing more people in red states, and that data was 253 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: really clearly presented to the Supreme Court. But the Supreme 254 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: Court turned around and overturned New York's gun laws. It said, basically, 255 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: you have to adopt these pathologically bad things. So I 256 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: feel like a lot of times our response to these 257 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: articles is like, oh, well, thank god I live in 258 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 2: a blue state, But you have to know that people 259 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: willing to die for their whiteness. That's the target is 260 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: blue state America. And so and so. I just think 261 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 2: you need a better political need. We need a political strategy, 262 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: not just a health strategy. That's what I argue in 263 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: the new book. 264 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I you know, and I agree with you 265 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: in so many ways, But at the same time, I 266 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: am at you know, really, as I was reading this piece, 267 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: thinking to myself that we are now at a time 268 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: where we're beyond tribalism, right that we are at a 269 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: every person for themselves right that if you know, yes, 270 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: of course, the Supreme Court can continue to rain down 271 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: terror on states that have tried to make their inhabitants safer, 272 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: whether it's from guns, whether it's from food products, whether 273 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: it's from greedy banks, whether it's all of the protections 274 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: that governors apparently in blue states don't have the same 275 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: power to command in the same way that governors in 276 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: red states do. At the same time, it's like, when 277 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: I think about my health and I think about the 278 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: health of my family and friends, it is really your responsibility, right, 279 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: Like your health is your responsibility. And so if you 280 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: and at that same time, we understand what happens in 281 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: terms of poverty and not having access to health care, 282 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: which is why Obamacare right was pushed through so that 283 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: people could have access regardless of the type of jobs 284 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: that they had, to healthcare. Republicans fought against that and 285 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: have chipped away at it ever since it was put 286 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: in place. And so, you know, at one time, I 287 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: look at this and I want to throw the whole, 288 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: you know, my whole laptop away as I'm reading it, 289 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: and then at the same time I'm just like, let 290 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: them die, right like, and I say that like tongue 291 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: in cheek. But at the same time, I'm just like, 292 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: what political strategy in this climate, Jonathan is going to 293 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: assuage people that decided not to put a mask on 294 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: their own face to protect themselves and their families from 295 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: a virus that killed over a million people. What political 296 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: strategy is going to move those people into a place 297 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: where they didn't even value their own goddamn lives over 298 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: the lies that were being told to them by a 299 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: political party that they pled their li and their life too. 300 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 2: See, here's the issue for me. I mean, of course 301 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: I wrote a whole book on that very point. But 302 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: the idea of let them die, it's I just I 303 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 2: can't say this enough. They're coming for you. So they're 304 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: dying in order to own you in a way. And 305 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 2: so the idea of the idea that this is just like, oh, 306 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: there's just poor red states. That's not the goal of 307 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 2: this ideology. People aren't just dying because they hate public 308 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: health and they want a shorter lifespan. They're dying because 309 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: the strategy of their dying is part of a bigger project, 310 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 2: which is to take over the Supreme Court and overturn 311 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: the Affordable Care Act and overturn all gun laws and 312 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: many other factors that will actually impact not just their 313 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 2: life but your life. And so it's not just like hey, 314 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 2: those backward guys down there, it's seeing that they're dying 315 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: as part of a bigger political project. And that bigger 316 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: political project is taking over the country. Right. I think 317 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 2: there's something terrifying about this that's not just backward red states, 318 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: which is I mean, this is what I argue in 319 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: the New Dying of Whiteness, that we have to see 320 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: that this is part of a bigger political project whose 321 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 2: aim is blue state America. And so in a way, 322 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 2: the idea that oh, well, just we can divide the country, 323 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: we can have a national divorce, that's not what this 324 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: is about. This is about taking over the entire country. 325 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: And so these deaths really are like almost military foot 326 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 2: soldier type deaths, about an agenda that has that's trying 327 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: to impact your health and your life. And I just 328 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 2: think we've been too late to wake up to that. 329 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: I mean abortion to be illegal across the entire country, 330 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: and no gun laws across the entire country. So the 331 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: aim of this death, which again I haven't finished the 332 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: Washington Post article, but I sure hope they get to 333 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 2: this point is the aim of this death isn't just 334 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 2: like we want to all die in Red States. It's 335 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 2: that this is the strategy they're using to take over 336 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: the entire country. 337 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: My feeling, Jonathan, and you are the expert here, So 338 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: outside of this Washington Post, you know, very in depth 339 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: expose of the last year that they have been doing 340 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: this research to come out here and they pull out 341 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: and have different interviews with different people that are struggling, 342 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: struggling from you know, from from chronic illness, a woman 343 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: that died at the age of sixty one, and so 344 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: forth and so on, a young man that died at 345 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: the age of thirty. And you know, the fact is 346 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: I hear everything that you're saying, and I hear everything. 347 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: They're coming for you, They're coming for your health like 348 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: this is I mean it is. It's going to be elysium, 349 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: where there is a place that is filled with death 350 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: and despair and disease, all things that were preventable if 351 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: you had invested in healthcare, if you hadn't done any 352 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: of the investment means that other peer countries have been 353 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: doing in prevention of disease. And that is what is 354 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: going to happen. But what what is a parent is 355 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: that the wealthy will be able to shield themselves from 356 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: this right, and is that the wealthy will be able 357 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: to shield themselves from this Uh, those that are able 358 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: and you know, and again that comes back to wealth. 359 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: Those that are able to lead this country and live 360 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: someplace else will right and you and you will see 361 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: a great exodus of talent, of wealth, of intellect that 362 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: that happens in nations that decide to battle for the bottom. 363 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: And I think that America is on that trajectory. And 364 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: you know, look, I try these days to look for 365 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: the hopefulness to find, you know, the rainbow in the rain. 366 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: But in all honesty, when I read this article and 367 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: I look at this and I talk to you every 368 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: week for you know, going on three years now, I 369 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: don't really see how things get better. And that is 370 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: because I don't see how this political climate. I'll give 371 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: you the last word, this political climate has not reached 372 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: its bottom yet. And the only way that things get 373 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: better is for things to finally bottom out and then 374 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: be able to That is my opinion. 375 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 2: I'm talking to you from Nashville today. I'm looking at 376 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: my window. There are cranes as far as I can see. 377 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: We actually once again reached crane maximum, which is what 378 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: it's called here in Nashville. There's so many new building 379 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: projects coming up here because all of these you know, 380 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 2: I can see the Alliance Bernstein Tower out my window here. 381 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 2: It's all these New York firms and companies and businesses 382 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 2: are moving to Red state America because there's cheap labor, 383 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: no labor unions, no state income tax. It's a really 384 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 2: kind of pro business. Amazon is rebuilding our downtown, all 385 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: these kind of things. It's not like everybody's walking around 386 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 2: with a corn cob pipe here. There's a lot of 387 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: there's a lot of there's just a lot of commerce 388 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: and business and wealth that's coming to the South. Property 389 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: values are really high. And part of the reason that 390 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 2: is is because there's a lot of cheap, disposable labor. 391 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: Unions can't organize a lot of these car companies that 392 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: don't want to fight the battle in Michigan or thinking 393 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: about you know, there are a lot of car car 394 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: plants down here in Tennessee and stuff like that. And 395 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: so the reason I'm saying This is because part of 396 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: where I come to with this, I'm not ready to 397 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: give up on America yet, but I am saying that 398 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: how can you It's just funny that part there's a 399 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: health story, which is people are dying earlier in Red 400 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 2: State America. And then there's also this business story, which 401 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 2: is that all these businesses are moving down here because 402 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 2: it's a lot cheaper them. Red State America is kind 403 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: of like what Mexico used to be or something like that, 404 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 2: Like you can hire all these people who are disposable 405 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 2: humans to work in your stuff, and you don't have 406 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 2: to pay taxes and that for you don't have to 407 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: pay for social programs. And so the question I have 408 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: in response to your question, I realized this is a 409 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: long way of answering. It is like, how can you 410 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: fortify Blue State America so that Blue State America remains 411 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 2: like a safe and healthy place. And part of that 412 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: is about health, but it's also about commerce and finance. 413 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: Like the reason that New York is in trouble right 414 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 2: now is because a lot of its tax base has 415 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 2: moved to Florida and Texas and Tennessee and places like that, 416 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 2: and companies to Mexico and things like that, and so 417 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 2: I just feel like at the very least Blue State 418 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: of America needs to needs we didn't need a better strategy 419 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 2: for Blue State America in the face of this, which 420 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: is about health, but it's also about finance and capital, 421 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: like what would what would true progressive capitalism look like? 422 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 2: How could you how could you make make it profitable 423 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 2: enough in Blue State America? Because the question for me 424 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 2: is like, is Blue in America going to be able 425 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 2: to continue to afford the health programs that keep people healthy? 426 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: So those are really long and winding answer, except that 427 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 2: I do argue in a lot of my writing now 428 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 2: that Blue State America needs a better financial model to 429 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: keep its health, not to just say, look at those 430 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: backwards bumpkins down there. 431 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, we will have to leave it there today, Jonathan, 432 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: because you got two books coming out that are going 433 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: to reshape conversations that are desperately in need of reshaping. 434 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: And so we appreciate that we get to have those 435 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: jump off conversations happen here on WOKF every week with you. 436 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: Appreciate you, my friend. 437 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 2: Take care everybody, and don't forget like puppies and peonies 438 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: are right around the corner. Just the minute Matt Gates 439 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: becomes the Speaker of the House, Everything. 440 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: Everything will get a lot better. That is it for 441 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: me today. Dear friends on woke a App. As always, Power 442 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: to the people and to all the people. Power, Get 443 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: woke and stay woke as fuck.