1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,439 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised. 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 3: I wanted to bring Sally's story into some spotlight because 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 3: understanding what she went through could help up other girls 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 3: and women understand what traumas they might have experienced or 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 3: might be privy to. 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,639 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive in 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: to the stories behind the stories. 19 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 3: It doesn't necessarily come in the box of a stranger 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 3: leaps out and violently assaults you or violently murders you. 21 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 3: That there can be a lot of psychological coercion course 22 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 3: of control. 23 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: Sarah Winman is a fantastic writer and author in New 24 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: York City. She's also the crime columnist for the New 25 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: York Times Book Review and she's known as the Crime 26 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: Lady because of her famous blog. I would call Sarah 27 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: Winman an influencer in the world of crime writing. And 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: Sarah wrote a true crime book called The Real Lolita, 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: and in it she looks into the mind of the 30 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: man who wrote Lolita. The book was written in nineteen 31 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: fifty five and it was really, really controversial. So in 32 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: her book, Sarah explores how the author of Lolita found 33 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: the story because it was based on a true story, 34 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: the kidnapping of Sally Horner. There's a lot to unpack 35 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: about this. 36 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: Before The Real Lolita was a book, the Real Elita 37 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: was a standalone feature. It really was a case of 38 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 3: sort of the fall to late near winter of twenty thirteen, 39 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 3: I had just finished doing heavy reporting and research and 40 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 3: interviews for a piece published by The New York Times 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: magazine about a man who was serving a life sentence 42 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 3: for murder who had won a private detective novel contest. 43 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 3: And that piece, and really most of whatever I have 44 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 3: published that are feature stories, tend to be where crime 45 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: intersects with culture, because what I've found is that even 46 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 3: though I've long been fascinated by true crime and real 47 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 3: life cases, I find that the stories that I'm most 48 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 3: interested in, most get obsessed with, have some extra element 49 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 3: that links it to either the large society at large 50 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 3: or the culture as a whole that I feel like. 51 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 3: It's not that it's not enough that it has to be, 52 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 3: say a murder mystery or who done it, or someone 53 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 3: who goes missing and they haven't found the body, but 54 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 3: it just feels like, what does this story also say 55 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 3: about something. 56 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: Else, or what's happening now we can relate to it now. 57 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 3: I'm also very drawn to stories of the mid twentieth century. 58 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 3: We are at the bound of memory where people who 59 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 3: have direct either testimony or were witnesses or were actually 60 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 3: involved are still alive, but perhaps not for much longer, 61 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 3: And so as a result, it really feels like I'm 62 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 3: trying to chase at something before it goes away. Doing so, 63 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: it feels like I'm trying to revive overlooked stories or 64 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 3: put people who have been needlessly forgotten back into some 65 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 3: kind of spotlight. So all of which to say is 66 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: these are all of sort of the larger background things 67 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: as to what led me to the kidnapping of Sally Horner. So, 68 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 3: Sally Horner was nearly eleven years old in March of 69 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 3: nineteen forty eight in Camden, New Jersey, which is just 70 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: over the river from Philadelphia. And back then Camden was 71 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: a working class town. It had still robust manufacturing. RCA. 72 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 3: Victor was there, Campbell's was there and is nominally still there. 73 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: There were shipbuilding through the war, but it was just 74 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: about the time when the decline was going to set 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: in and ultimately become a sort of permanent state of 76 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 3: being for the city. But no one knew that yet. 77 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: So Sally was. 78 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 3: Growing up in a poorer, working class household, single mother 79 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 3: who had trouble keeping work. She had an older half 80 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 3: sister who was pregnant with her first child, having just 81 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: gotten married and working in a greenhouse with her husband. 82 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: There was a lot going on. 83 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: And so Sally at school really wanted to join this 84 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 3: girl's club. And as part of the initiation, right, she 85 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 3: was supposed to go to the nearest five and dime, 86 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 3: probably Woolworth's and steal a notebook, a five cent notebook. 87 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: Wait what, so it's sort of like a fun gang 88 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: kind of thing. 89 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: Or yeah, I suppose so. 90 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: Like she was lonely, she wanted friends. This is a 91 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 3: way to get in with a peer group. Yeah, she 92 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 3: went to the five and dime and she was just 93 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 3: about to take the notebook in a handcaught her arm. 94 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: He turned out to be this man who called himself 95 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 3: Frank Warner. Used many, many different aliases. I once did 96 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 3: a list, and I think I was north of twenty. 97 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: So the name that he was most known by was 98 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 3: Frank Lasel And it probably wasn't his real name, but 99 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: he used it enough that I feel like that was 100 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 3: a consensus name. In any case, he catches her on 101 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,559 Speaker 3: the arm and he tells her, I'm an FBI agent. 102 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 3: You're under arrest. He was not an FBI agent. She 103 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 3: was definitely not under arrest. He had only been released 104 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 3: from prison two months before for the statutory rape of 105 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 3: five girls between the ages of twelve and fourteen, so 106 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 3: he was a real opportunistic criminal. He'd also done time 107 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 3: for drunkenness, bootlegging, car theft, all sorts of stuff all 108 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 3: around the Midwest, and somehow landing in Philadelphia. 109 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: So kind of from the beginning he had this sort 110 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: of life of crime. 111 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a shady character pretty much his whole life. 112 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 3: So this happens, and he tells her, I'm going to 113 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 3: let you go, but if you I'll be watching your 114 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 3: every move, you have to report to me because otherwise 115 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: you'll go to the reformatory. So he lets her go. 116 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 3: Some time passes, and now it's June of nineteen forty eight. 117 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: She's now properly eleven. It's getting ever closer to the 118 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 3: birth of her niece. And as she comes home from school, 119 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: Lisle catches her again, and now he helps the ante 120 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 3: and says, if you don't do what I say, you'll 121 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: definitely be going to the reformatory. So you now have 122 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 3: to tell your mother this story. And the story that 123 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 3: she told, and it was backed up when he called 124 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: the house was she was going to go away to 125 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: Atlantic City for a few days, and he was the 126 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 3: father of several school friends. And the reason her mother Ella, 127 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 3: let her go is because Ella was really close to 128 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: having the electricity turned off. She was in and out 129 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 3: of work. She knew that she couldn't afford to give 130 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 3: her daughter even a semblance of a vacation. So even 131 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 3: if it sounded too good, to be true, it still 132 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 3: seemed better than the alternative. 133 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: And did he did Frank know that? Did he know 134 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: what Sally's family situation was? I mean, how did you 135 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: say that story would work? That's an excellent question. 136 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 3: I don't know that for sure, because and this is 137 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: just a function of how much you can spin a 138 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 3: narrative from the sources. 139 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: That you rely on. 140 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: So, because I was relying heavily on news reports and 141 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 3: to a lesser extent, whatever court documents I could dig up, 142 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 3: and this was an issue because a lot of them 143 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 3: were lost or they were buried in FBI files that 144 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: I didn't get until after the book published, Which. 145 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: Then, isn't there always the way? Always always? 146 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 3: That meant I could write an afterward to the paperback edition, 147 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: but at the time that I was initially researching it 148 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 3: in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen less. So there's a lot 149 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 3: that I don't know in terms of state of mind. 150 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: But there's a lot obviously that I can infer. Since 151 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: the book has been published, a number of people asked 152 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 3: have asked me, how could Ella do such a thing, 153 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: let her daughter go off with a stranger? And I 154 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 3: always say, we can't define her actions by well then 155 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen to twenty twenty attitudes. We have to think 156 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 3: about what life was like back in nineteen forty eight, 157 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 3: and there was a degree of permissiveness about letting your 158 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 3: kids go off places and not worrying about them. So 159 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 3: she does let Sally go. She sees her off at 160 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 3: the bus station, she sees the shadowy figure sitting next 161 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 3: to her daughter, and what was supposed to be a 162 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 3: week turns into two weeks, then three. 163 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: Weeks, then six weeks. 164 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 3: She is getting phone calls, she is getting letters from 165 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 3: Sally yeah or reportedly, oh Sally. 166 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: Okay, so she's alive. Oh yeahah. 167 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 3: But about six weeks in, Ella gets a letter and 168 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: a phone call saying they're going to Baltimore, and Sally's 169 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 3: not going to write or call anymore. And that's when 170 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 3: she finally realizes this wasn't fully a case of a 171 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 3: girl willingly going off with someone. Something sinister is quite 172 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 3: a foot. So she goes to the police. What's the 173 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 3: reaction from the cops. They take it fairly seriously, and 174 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 3: in fact, I'd say the local police really did quite well. 175 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 3: There was one detective in particular, Marshall Thompson, who was 176 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 3: on it full time, pretty much from the get go. 177 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 3: At first there were several and then he was the 178 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 3: only one, so he would travel to all places in 179 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: New Jersey in Pennsylvania, following whatever leaves he could. Part 180 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: of the problem, which I didn't learn until I got 181 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 3: Lasal's FBI file two weeks before pub is that the 182 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 3: FBI was called in, but they closed the case really early. 183 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 3: I think if Ella reported Sally missing in August of 184 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 3: nineteen forty eight, by October forty eight it was no 185 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 3: longer open. And this was a kidnapping where they were 186 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 3: pretty sure she'd be taken across state lines, but they're 187 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: just like, yeah, we don't have any proof and she 188 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: can come home willingly. 189 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: It was just. 190 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: There was one note later in the file, an agent 191 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 3: after everything was over, is reading through it, and you 192 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 3: can tell how shocked he was that it was closed 193 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 3: so early, and he writes, this really was bad, which 194 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: was just. 195 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: Which is a condemnation of the FBI absolutely, and the fact. 196 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 3: That here were these male FBI agents who didn't believe 197 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: a woman and didn't believe that a girl could be 198 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: kidnapped under these circumstances. 199 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: Ella is thinking the worst I'm assuming from what you 200 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: can gather. 201 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 3: Oh sure, or just not even knowing what to think, 202 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 3: Like she just knows that her daughter is gone, doesn't 203 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 3: know where she is. Could be anywhere in the country, 204 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 3: could be anywhere in the world. She at one point 205 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 3: in Christmas in nineteen forty eight, gives some quotes to 206 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: the local paper, and I think the headline was a 207 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 3: tree glows, a mother waits. So she had a Christmas 208 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 3: tree up in the window so that if Sally came home, 209 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 3: she would see that the house was still there and 210 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 3: she was still doing Christmas, and that she had kept 211 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 3: Sally's room pretty much the way that it was when 212 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 3: she was taken. So all this is happening. And by 213 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: this point Sally's in Baltimore, so she had been in 214 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 3: Atlantic City. And then they go to Baltimore where, under 215 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 3: an assumed name, she registers to go to school at 216 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 3: a Catholic school. 217 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: Why send her to school because it would be suspicious 218 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: if she weren't in school. 219 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, probably is school compulsory at that point. Probably you didn't. 220 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: Have the same thing of homeschoolingah that you would now. 221 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 3: I think it would have looked weird, especially because the 222 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 3: idea is that she is supposed to be posing as 223 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 3: Frank's daughter, so if she isn't enrolled in school, it 224 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: would create more red flags. 225 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: So, boy, what a big risk he's taking by letting 226 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: her be around other students. And we'll talk about what 227 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: ultimately happens. He at this point has or so let's 228 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: switch from the point of view from Ella her mother, 229 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: to Sally traveling with this man. What is their actual relationship? 230 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: Like, certainly in Baltimore and I would say with great 231 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: probability in Atlantic City that he was raping her. This 232 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 3: was not a contential relationship obviously, because she was eleven 233 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 3: and he was around fifty, and he had this prior 234 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 3: record of raping young girls. And so as a result, 235 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 3: there's a facade where they seem like a father and 236 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: daughter and very affectionate, and people have no idea that 237 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 3: anything is amiss, and privately there's this terrible thing going on, 238 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 3: And of course there's all untold psychological manipulation, because this 239 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 3: is what will come up later and even now, which 240 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 3: is how could a girl be considered kidnapped if she's 241 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 3: not tied up, if she's not shackled. But there's so 242 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 3: much you can do psychologically and mentally that in many 243 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 3: ways can create even more trauma and more lasting damage 244 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 3: than being physically bound. So the level of manipulation, him 245 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 3: telling her that her family no longer loved her, they 246 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 3: wouldn't miss her, are all things that would create such 247 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 3: an enormous impression upon an eleven year old girl. 248 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: I mean, that just goes without saying. 249 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I imagine that he was justifying the sex somehow. 250 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 3: There's no written record that says it, because when he 251 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: was asked if later by police if there was a 252 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 3: sexual relationship, he would deny it. He kept saying that 253 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 3: she was in fact his daughter, no proof whatsoever. There 254 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: was no indication that he ever even knew Ella Horner 255 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 3: prior to meeting Sally at the five and dime. He 256 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: was a fabuloust but he would continue you on with 257 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 3: this fabulousm really until the end of his life. So 258 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 3: they spend a number of months in Baltimore, and then 259 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 3: in early nineteen forty nine, probably around March, they're on 260 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 3: the move. And my theory is that it more or 261 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 3: less tracks with when the Camden County Prosecutor Mitchell Cohen 262 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 3: charged LaSalle with additional crimes so he had already been 263 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 3: charged with abduction and now kidnapping was at it. It 264 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 3: had a much more serious prison sentence of thirty to 265 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: thirty five years. So my theory is that he learned 266 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 3: of this and realized that he and Sally had to 267 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: leave the East Coast, so they travel to Dallas. Dallas, 268 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 3: Texas had a group of trailer parks right around Commerce Street, 269 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: which now if you go there, it's the Expressway. Because 270 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 3: I went looking to see if there was any remnant 271 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 3: of that trailer park, but there was nothing. So it 272 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 3: was near and it was not that far from Oakliffe. 273 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 3: So there's a community in this trailer park and there 274 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 3: are a number of neighbors. And again they have no 275 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 3: idea what the true nature of Sally and LaSalle's relationship is. 276 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: And so they're there from March April of nineteen forty 277 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 3: nine to early nineteen fifty. 278 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: So at this point, it's is it six months into 279 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: this nearly a year? Nearly a year, and yeah, okay, 280 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: so they now moved to Dallas. 281 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: He's on the move. How is he supporting them? 282 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 3: Odd jobs fixing cars, being a mechanic, whatever brings in money. 283 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: I think at one point he did enter into some 284 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 3: kind of partnership with another resident of the trailer park, 285 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: but it's all very temporary and disconnected. And the reason 286 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 3: I know this is because one of the Dallas Trailer 287 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: park neighbors a woman named Ruth Janish, who with her 288 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 3: husband George, had many many children, and they themselves were 289 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 3: itinerant travelers. They would go from Washington State to Minnesota 290 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 3: to Dallas to California and then do the loop all 291 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 3: over again. Hers was also a really rough heart scrabble life. 292 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 3: There was all manner of cycles of abuse that she 293 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 3: experienced that unfortunately perpetuated on her own s. But she 294 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: also got a sense that something was very very wrong 295 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 3: with the relationship between Sally and LaSalle. She could see 296 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 3: something that no one else could, or at least no 297 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 3: one was admitting to. What was her sense that it 298 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: was just not it was just like not right, not natural, 299 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 3: Something was off. 300 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: Did she do something about it? 301 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: She did something that was really quite remarkable. And as 302 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 3: I say in the book and also speaking with some 303 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 3: of her daughters about this, that they view what Ruth 304 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 3: did with respect to Sally is the one decent thing 305 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 3: she did in her life. 306 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: And she never wanted people to forget. 307 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 3: It, and it didn't necessarily make up for all the 308 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: trauma that she allowed or perpetuated, but it helped to 309 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 3: again put things in some larger context in terms of 310 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 3: understanding her own personality. She realizes that something is amiss, 311 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: but she and her family are about to move to 312 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 3: San Jose because her husband can find work there that 313 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 3: he's not currently finding in Dallas. So they land in 314 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: San Jose again, and then she writes LaSalle and says, 315 00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 3: there's work to be had here, why don't you come. 316 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 3: Lasal takes her up on it, and he packs up 317 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 3: the car and the trailer and he and Sally move 318 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 3: from Dallas to San Jose. So we're now until March 319 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 3: of nineteen fifty. She had also been enrolled at a 320 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: Catholic school in Dallas. He takes her out and they're 321 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 3: on the road for a while, and then they finally 322 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: land in San Jose, hitch up the trailer. The car 323 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: breaks down, so he has to take the bus into 324 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 3: the city limits of San Jose to look for work, 325 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 3: and Ruth seizes her chance, so she invites Sally over, 326 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: and you know, they know each other from Dallas, and 327 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 3: she finally says, is there something you want to tell me? 328 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 3: And at first Sally's reluctant, but then finally she breaks 329 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 3: down and said, yeah, he's not really my father, and 330 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 3: there's this terrible thing. 331 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: Happening, and I miss my mom. 332 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 3: She lets Sally and shows her how to make a 333 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: long distance phone call. So first Sally calls her mother, 334 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 3: but the phone's been disconnected because Ella's out of work 335 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 3: again and the electricity's turned off and the phone is off, 336 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 3: so she can't get through. So she calls her sister 337 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 3: Susan at the greenhouse, and Susan doesn't pick up, but 338 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 3: her brother in law, Al Panaro, picks up, and that's 339 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 3: when Sally says, it's me. He sent for the FBI, 340 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: but I'm alive and I want to come home. So 341 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 3: Al acts quickly, and eventually police will descend upon the 342 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 3: trailer park and they'll get to Losal just as he's 343 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 3: getting off the bus and they arrest him, and at 344 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 3: first he tries to say that he is in fact 345 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 3: Sally's father, but his story breaks down in a series 346 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 3: of inconsistencies. At first, it looks like there might be 347 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 3: some protracted trial and Sally might have to testify, and 348 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 3: she's understandably really upset about this, but Lasal decides to 349 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 3: plead guilty to spare publicity for the kid for Sally, 350 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 3: and so he gets thirty to thirty five years in prison, 351 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: So this is nineteen fifty. He eventually dies in prison 352 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty six, at roughly the age of seventy, 353 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: give or take a few years. And so this is 354 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: what's interesting is that the Camden County Prosecutor, Mitchell Cohen, 355 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 3: he had advised Sally and Ella that they might be 356 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 3: better off leaving Camden, changing their names, making a new life, 357 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 3: breaking with the past. 358 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: What is the media like? Is this national story splashed 359 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 2: all over? Is this more local? Is it sensationalize? What's 360 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: it like? I was surprised at how widely it traveled. 361 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 3: I was finding wires stories in Australia and New Zealand, 362 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 3: in other languages. Like with so many cases, the local 363 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 3: coverage was the most comprehensive and I found to be 364 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 3: the most sympathetic. Once it got on the wires, that's 365 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 3: when a lot of inflammatory language would seep in, talking 366 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: about her body appearance as husky or plump, talking about 367 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 3: how they had sex, very. 368 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: Different than Raper molestation. Yeah, a lot of misogynistic things 369 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: happening throughout this whole. 370 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, although less than I think I had bargained for. 371 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 3: And that's in part because I'm thinking of the Camden 372 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 3: Evening career in the Courier Post, which was the local papers, 373 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 3: So on the day that she was found and rescued, 374 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 3: they have a front page story with her witness statement 375 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 3: to the sheriff in San Jose. So it's essentially like 376 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 3: a first person as told to which was gold for 377 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 3: me because it was the first instance where I had 378 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 3: Sally's voice, Like, there wasn't a diary. I would ask 379 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 3: whatever sources I could find if they remembered how her 380 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 3: voice sounded, and they couldn't tell me because so much 381 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 3: time had passed, So this was just my first sense 382 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 3: of how she might have spoken. And of course she 383 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 3: was thirteen by then, and it was still very much 384 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 3: this incredibly stressful, anxious series of statements, and just the 385 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 3: fact that at one point. 386 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: The sheriff asked had she had sex with Frank Lacel 387 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 2: and for she denied it because it was shameful to 388 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: talk about. But then he gently coaxed and just said 389 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: you know, we need you to tell us because you're 390 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: safe now, etc. And so she finally broke down and 391 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: told what happened. But that's why the line of I 392 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: want to go home as soon as I can, that 393 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: just really got at me because it's the most primal 394 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 2: thing in the world. 395 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 3: A little girl wants to go home. Yeah, and she's 396 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 3: been denied that chance for twenty one months. 397 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 2: So I think that also. 398 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: Contributed to why Sally and Ella did not leave Camden. 399 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,239 Speaker 3: And not only did did they not leave Camden, they 400 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 3: went back to the house and she went back to 401 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: the same school that she had been in when she 402 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 3: was taken. 403 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: Is that a needing a sense of normalcy or like 404 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: a stronger foundation or something. 405 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 2: It's hard to know. I just feel like. 406 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 3: That's what they knew. Yeah, what else you gonna do 407 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: if you're a single mom, If you're a single mom, 408 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 3: what other options do you have? 409 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 4: It? 410 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 3: And the thought of getting Sally into therapy was unfathomable. 411 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: You just didn't do that. 412 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 3: Then the idea was something bad happened, you buried it 413 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 3: and hoped that people would forget it. But people didn't forget. 414 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 3: And the greater issue was they didn't view Sally as 415 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 3: someone who had suffered terrible trauma and had been repeatedly raped. 416 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 3: They viewed her as a girl who had willingly given 417 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 3: up her virginity to an older man. So she was 418 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 3: harassed at school. She didn't really have friends, so she's 419 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: already here was this girl predisposed to being solitary, and 420 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: she was really isolated. And it wasn't until she met 421 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 3: a girl named Carol Starts and they formed a very 422 00:20:54,560 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 3: deep friendship in the last year of Sally's life. 423 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: So again my instinct is to say, what the hell 424 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: was Ella thinking not getting her kid out, especially if 425 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: she's bullied. 426 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: But we do have to go back to that time. 427 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: Period, which is after World War Two and instability and 428 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: a single mom. So it's still a little mind boggling 429 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: that after everything she went through, she continued to go 430 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: through bad things. 431 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 3: I think also from what I know of Ella is 432 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 3: that she was not always making the best choices in 433 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 3: her life. This was someone who claimed that she was 434 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 3: a widow, but I could not find any documentation that 435 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: she'd ever been married, so that meant she probably had 436 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: two children out of wedlock. Definitely was a little bit 437 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 3: sketchy about the parentage of her first daughter, Susan. The 438 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 3: best guess I have is that she took up with 439 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 3: someone who was married, who had family, and this became 440 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 3: understandably very complicated and fraud and with Sally. She took 441 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: up with a man named Russell Horner. He had been married, 442 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: he had been widowed, he'd been married again, and he 443 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: had a son. So it's just what she liked to 444 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 3: tell people and what was actually happening. Were often at 445 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 3: odds with one another, and I'm sure shame had a 446 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 3: lot to do with it, or just all sorts of 447 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 3: things that I don't think it's fair for me to 448 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 3: fully speculate on what was the media's reaction to Ella Horner. 449 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 3: I mean, did they have one? Not really, they're just Viuterus, 450 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 3: her mother. And it's especially apparent when Sally flies home 451 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 3: from California to Philadelphia, because of course there's no airport 452 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 3: in Camden, so you fly in to Philly and all 453 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 3: the photographers are there, and there's this one photo when 454 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 3: Ella and Sally finally see each other for the first 455 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 3: time in twenty one months. Sally runs down the stairs 456 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 3: from the plane, Ella run rushes towards her. The plane 457 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 3: was delayed, so there was extra stress and pressure. They 458 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 3: finally embrace and just to see they're both crying. Sally's 459 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 3: held in her mother's arms. All of that is there. 460 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 3: There's just so much emotion pent up because also by 461 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: that point, Sally's niece has not only been born, but 462 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 3: she's closing in on nearly two years old. So she's 463 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 3: finally meeting Diana, her niece, for the first time, and 464 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: she says, gee, she looks an awful lot like me 465 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: when I was a baby. 466 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: So there's two years almost lost, and you can't get 467 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: that back. 468 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 3: It's just impossible, and there's no way that you can 469 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 3: ever recover those last years. Now you were getting back 470 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 3: to the one friend. 471 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: Carol is right, So this is happening when she's about fourteen, 472 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: she meets this girl. 473 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so they meet in homeroom, and Carol was much 474 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 3: more street smart. She was like one of ten kids. 475 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: She had no illusions about life, and she just thought 476 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 3: Sally was a lovely girl, very bookish, very heartfelt, and 477 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 3: they just bonded. When I finally tracked her down, and 478 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 3: it took quite a while to find her. 479 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 2: While you tracked her down I did. 480 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 3: It's amazing and she has since passed away, but I 481 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 3: did have two pretty substantive telephone conversations with her, and 482 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 3: she was a delight to talk to. But mostly I 483 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 3: could just sense, even over the phone, how much Sally 484 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 3: meant to her. And she described how Sally taught her 485 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 3: how to be a lady, how to eat food with 486 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 3: a fork properly. Then it also struck me, well, how 487 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 3: would Sally have learned that? Would you have learned it 488 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: at home with Ella? Or did you learn it on 489 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: the road. Yeah, so everything becomes it carries extra weight 490 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 3: because here is a girl growing up on the road 491 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 3: because you have to grow up, but she's also growing 492 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 3: up far too fast and learning things that frankly, no 493 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 3: girl should be learning at that age. 494 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: Did Sally and Carol? 495 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 3: I'll ever talk about what happened with Frank to some degree, 496 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 3: but mostly it was a no go zone for understandable reasons. 497 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 3: It was just it was a tremendous pain and it 498 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 3: was something that was used against Sally, so why would 499 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 3: she want to talk about it. But she did emote, 500 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 3: and she did confess to loneliness, and she wondered if 501 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 3: it would affect any chances of having a boyfriend, and 502 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 3: she just felt sad about that, but it was hard 503 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 3: to know, which also I think explains when in the 504 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 3: summer of nineteen fifty two, by which point Carol and 505 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 3: Sally are both fifteen years old, and having seen photos, 506 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 3: Sally at fifteen looks quite grown up. She's taller. Part 507 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 3: of it was the style in nineteen fifty two of 508 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 3: what clothes they wore and how they did their hair. 509 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 3: But she really, I'm looking at photos and she looks 510 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 3: like she's in her early twenties already, whereas when she 511 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 3: was kidnapped at eleven, she looked eleven. So it really 512 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 3: is incredible and also quite sad to behold the changes 513 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 3: in her. But they decide, after working summer jobs as waitresses, 514 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 3: to spend a weekend at a resort town in southern 515 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 3: New Jersey called Wildwood in August of nineteen fifty two. 516 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 3: So they take the bus together and they're out dancing, 517 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 3: and they're in with other groups of people that they 518 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: may know or know a little bit, and then Sally 519 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 3: meets a boy named Edward Baker. He has a car, 520 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 3: he's a little bit older, he's definitely very cute. He's 521 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: like shock of dark brown hair. He was popular in 522 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 3: his high school. He works in some kind of manufacturing plant, 523 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 3: and he's definitely interested in her, and she's interested in him. 524 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 3: And they go out for walks on the board rock. 525 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: So this could be the start of something really sweet 526 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: for her, which she deserves exactly this time. 527 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 3: Maybe in hindsight, the fact that she's fifteen and he's 528 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 3: twenty is a little bit. The age difference is a 529 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 3: little much. But she didn't tell him that she was fifteen. 530 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 3: She told him that she was seventeen because they were 531 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: using fake id's in general, so she just stuck to it, 532 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 3: so he thought that she was seventeen. So they're spending 533 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 3: time together. He claims that it never got beyond kissing. 534 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: If that, I'm not so sure, But again I only 535 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 3: have the written. 536 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: Record to go by. 537 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 3: But she makes a faithful decision that instead of going 538 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 3: back on the bus with Carol, she's going to accept 539 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 3: a ride home with Ed Baker. 540 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 2: And it's late at night on August. 541 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 3: Eighteenth of nineteen fifty two, just after midnight, and there's 542 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 3: a four car accident. He survives, but Sally does not, 543 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 3: and so her life ends at fifteen. 544 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 2: He plows in the back of a of a truck 545 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: and then it caroens into another car. 546 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 3: So it's just like this cascade and Sally is killed instantly, 547 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 3: and every other person is injured to some degree. Baker 548 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 3: also suffers some injuries. I believe that he has chest 549 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 3: injuries and breaks a leg, but they're survivable. And he's 550 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 3: actually arrested for the equivalent of vehicular homicide, but the 551 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 3: charges will eventually be dropped because it's pretty clear that 552 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: it was an accident, just a horrible, horrible accident. 553 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: So Sally Horner does at fifteen, yeah. 554 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 3: And her brother in law has to identified the body 555 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: because Ella's too distraught to do it. So he goes 556 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 3: down to Wildwood and does the id and then they 557 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 3: have the funeral and several hundred people come, and then 558 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 3: sort of the most appalling piece of news, LaSalle learns 559 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 3: of Sally's death and sends flowers gross which were not displayed. 560 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 2: Obviously. 561 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: What now is the media perception of her on upon 562 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: news of her death? 563 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 2: Is it reported? 564 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: Oh? 565 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's reported, and it's mostly just girl who survived 566 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 3: kidnapping is killed in a car accident. Especially in the 567 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: local papers. They do take note of how cruel and 568 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 3: unfair it is that she died so soon after coming home, 569 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 3: But mostly it's just reported as a straight news story, 570 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: and the wires pick it up, and it's one of 571 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 3: those wires stories that the novelist Ludumuinabokov reads. And the 572 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 3: first real tie was a line late in the novel 573 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 3: when Humbred Humberd who is of course the famously unreliable narrator, 574 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 3: who has this predilection towards prepubescent girls, in particular one 575 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 3: named Dolores Hayes, who nicknames Lolita. Sometimes she's Dolly, sometimes 576 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 3: she's other names. I tended to think of her as Dolores. 577 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 3: I always remember that she was at least a fictional person. 578 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 3: So late in the novel there comes a point when 579 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: he is back sort of at the scene of the 580 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 3: crime in a matter of speaking, and there's a parent 581 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 3: that a call which reads, had I done to Dolly 582 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 3: or Dolores Hayes? Had I done to her what Frank 583 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 3: lesala fifty year old mechanic, had done to Sally Horner 584 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 3: in nineteen forty eight? And the thing with Lolita. I 585 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: don't know if you've read the novel. I have not, 586 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 3: so it had been many years since I had read it. 587 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 3: I read it at sixteen, which was perhaps a little 588 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 3: bit too young to read it, But subsequently I've learned 589 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 3: of quite a number of women who read it in 590 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 3: their teens or. 591 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: Even as young as twelve. 592 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 3: Wow, because it's viewed as this controversial novel, this like 593 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 3: illicit novel that's supposed to clue you in on various 594 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 3: things that seem outside the mounds of whatever young adult 595 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 3: life you're leading. For me, it was almost like a dare. 596 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 3: There's so much going on. It's written in such a 597 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 3: way where the language is ever present and sort of 598 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 3: supersedes anything, but you're also sucked into the narrative, into 599 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 3: humbred hundreds of wors. 600 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: It's really easy to miss stuff. 601 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 3: So that parenthetical I definitely did not catch the first time, 602 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 3: and I definitely had no sense that it was referring 603 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 3: to a real life case and a real life girl. 604 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 3: And so after reading through this essay and thinking about 605 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 3: it a little bit, I was like, I wonder if 606 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 3: anyone's written sort of a narrative feature on this case. 607 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 3: Quickly the Sally Horner story. Yes, he learned of the 608 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 3: case at critical points while he was writing Lolita. So 609 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 3: and by this point it's pretty likely that he has 610 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 3: some familiarity with the Horner case, just because back in 611 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 3: nineteen fifty there was such a torrent of media coverage, 612 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 3: but an international media. 613 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: As you said too. 614 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 3: Well, by this point in a Bocov is at Cornell University, 615 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 3: so he's probably reading it in the New York Times 616 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 3: or the local paper. But in fifty two he's on 617 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 3: the road because he and his wife Vera and sometimes 618 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 3: their son Dmitri, would spend the summer's hunting butterflies, and 619 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 3: he didn't drive, so it was usually Vera or Dimitri, 620 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 3: or sometimes they would pay grad student to be their 621 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 3: driver and they would just follow various routes. And so 622 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 3: when Sally's death was reported, he read a wire story. 623 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 3: A couple of days later, he would have been in Wyoming. 624 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 3: And it's at a point where he's been working on 625 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 3: the manuscript that would become Lolita for four or five years, 626 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 3: struggling with it. But in the next year and a 627 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: half he is seized with inspiration and he works on 628 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 3: it with real feverish intent, and by December of nineteen 629 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 3: fifty three, the manuscript is done, and it includes that 630 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 3: parenthetical that I mentioned at the top of the conversation, 631 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 3: which is a direct reference to the real news story. 632 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 3: Maybe it took this sort of real life event to 633 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 3: click with him how to fill in the blanks or 634 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 3: how to make connections in this fictional story. Yeah, I 635 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 3: think he viewed Sally's ordeal as solving some structural problem 636 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 3: and also taking certain details, even just from her appearance 637 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 3: or the fact that Lasal was sentenced to thirty to 638 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 3: thirty five years in prison, the fact that he was 639 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 3: initially charged under the Man Act, which was about transporting 640 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 3: sex workers across state lines. So they are all these 641 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 3: little details, but also just the fact that she had 642 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 3: been on a cross country road trip and Lolita and 643 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 3: Humberd Humberd go on across country road trip, which is 644 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 3: a lot more elaborate Byzantine, and frankly, if you actually 645 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 3: map it as some people have, it doesn't really make 646 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 3: sense because they sort of like double back and go 647 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 3: it just it doesn't really fit. Whereas going from Camden 648 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 3: to Atlantic City to Baltimore to Dallas to San Jose, 649 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 3: it's a. 650 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: Little more linear. Making a little thing there. 651 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, the biggest clue that I had about how one 652 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 3: can infer the Nobokov's intention with respect to Lolita was 653 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 3: a diary entry that Vera made, so he kept diaries, 654 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 3: but she sort of took it over in the run 655 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 3: up to the American publication of Lolita, in part because 656 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 3: I think they sense that their lives were about to change. 657 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 3: When the book became such a success and went to 658 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 3: the top of the New York Times bestseller list. They 659 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 3: earned so much money that he could finally quit his 660 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 3: teaching job at Cornell, and they moved to Montreu, Switzerland 661 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 3: and lived in this swanky hotel for the rest of 662 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 3: his life, and she stayed there until the rest of 663 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 3: her life too, So he died in seventy seven. Vera 664 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 3: died in ninety one. 665 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 2: So backtrack. 666 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 3: She does this diary entry upon seeing the critical reception 667 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 3: that comes in within the first few weeks, and she 668 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 3: notes something to the effect of, I wish more people 669 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 3: understood that the key to this novel is this poor, 670 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 3: misunderstood girl, and essentially that she is the true heroine 671 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,239 Speaker 3: of this story. And he always said that Lolita was 672 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 3: one of his very favorite characters to write, and he 673 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 3: also viewed her as a true heroine, and that's The 674 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 3: thing is like, if you look underneath the surface of 675 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 3: this unreliable narration that is very easy to get seduced by, 676 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 3: it is essentially novelist seduction pure underneath, and here is 677 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: this much more horrible, awful story of a girl repeatedly 678 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 3: violated who still manages to overcome it. 679 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: Let me give you the two references I know from Lolita. 680 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: One is the long Island Lolita, Amy Fisher. That is 681 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: how I think most people probably know that phrase. And 682 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: the other is stings. 683 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 3: But he says it differently than you do, so depending 684 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 3: on where you're from, you pronounce his name differently, and 685 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 3: he actually did a whole pronunciation guide to his own name. 686 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: It the closest approximation is Nobulkov. 687 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: Nobukov talk about the controversy about just the novel in general. 688 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 3: Sure, and just to sort of go back to your 689 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 3: point about how the term Lolita has been used, that's 690 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 3: part of the controversy. It's I view Lalita aside from 691 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 3: even after all the years of research that led to 692 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 3: making this book, I still view it as one of 693 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 3: the greatest novels ever written in the twentieth century because 694 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 3: the fact that he could create and elicit such sympathy 695 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 3: from the reader for such a monstrous character is such 696 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 3: a feat of novelistic contention and language. But all the 697 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 3: clues are there, for all of the horror that Humbred 698 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 3: Humbard perpetuates upon Dolora's hayes, like the fact that in 699 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 3: the initial scene where they have sex, or where he 700 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 3: rapes her, he paints it as she turned to him 701 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 3: and she wanted it, and that she had had this 702 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 3: prior sexual experience. And yet it's also clear that Nobokov 703 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 3: wants us to remember we only have Humbred Humbred's word, 704 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 3: that this novel is being conveyed in the form of 705 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 3: a memoir, like a fake memoir, the unreliable narration exactly, 706 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 3: So anything that he's telling us we should distrust. And 707 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 3: the fact that even underneath these layers of self aggradization 708 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 3: and wanting to put himself at the center of the narrative, 709 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 3: we still scent the pain and the horror that she 710 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 3: is experiencing just speaks to what is actually going on here. 711 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 3: And so the fact also that he is the one 712 00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 3: who nicknames her Lolita. She doesn't call herself Lolita. So 713 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 3: the fact that subsequent to the book's publication, the film adaptations, 714 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 3: The Broadway musical, the Failed Broadway Musical, various other Amy 715 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 3: Fisher cases. What well and Amy Fisher is actually a 716 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 3: really good comparison, because here was also someone who suffered 717 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 3: a lot of trauma as a kid. I think she 718 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 3: was really looking for love in the worst possible places, 719 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 3: so to be called the Long Island Lolita as a 720 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 3: profound misunderstanding of not only what happened to her, but 721 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 3: what the novel was all about. 722 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: I think of a young girl who seduces quote unquote. 723 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: An older man in that way? What a seduction? 724 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: Right? 725 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: I mean Amy Fisher was. 726 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: I hate it when true crime people talk about women 727 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: in their looks, but she was an attractive young woman. 728 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: She eventually shoots her boyfriend Joey, Butafucco's wife, Yeah, that 729 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: connotation is there of Hannah a young woman seduced. In 730 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: that nineteen forties, girls were given so much more responsibility. 731 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 2: What was the consent to marry at that? And I 732 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: mean it depended state by state. 733 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 734 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 2: Obviously. 735 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 3: The thing with her too is that, yeh she was 736 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 3: fifteen sixteen, and I think had had some prior sexual experience. 737 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 3: But it still comes down to there was some degree 738 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 3: of power differential, and that's always what it comes down to. 739 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 3: She may have desires, Lots of high school age girls 740 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 3: have desires, but it really is incumbent upon the men 741 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 3: to not act on them, especially if there is a 742 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 3: power differential. Let's say that they're a teacher or someone 743 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 3: in law enforcement and the like like, you should not 744 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 3: be abusing power. And in the case of fictional case 745 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 3: like Humbered, Humbert was essentially her stepfather. That is a 746 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 3: gross abuse of power, putting all the onus on the girl. 747 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 3: That's part of the problem here, and that's what we 748 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 3: saw in some part with Sally Horner. There are, to me, 749 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 3: I don't know if you agree with this or not, 750 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 3: there are some true crime stories that need to be told, 751 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 3: specifically by a woman. 752 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: I think this is probably one of those. What is 753 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: it that we take away from this. 754 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 3: Sally Horner being a person, What does that mean in 755 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 3: terms of how we read Lolita. I don't think that 756 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 3: her story supersedes Lolita, but I just want her story 757 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 3: to be always alongside, so that they're essentially in permanent 758 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 3: conversation with one another, and that if Sally matters, then 759 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 3: all the other people, girls, women, anyone who identifies as female, 760 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 3: they matter to. If my book helps people uncouple the 761 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,399 Speaker 3: idea that Lolita is synonymous with seductress, I've done my job. 762 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 763 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 4: This was not just a murderer. 764 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 2: This was not just a shooting. 765 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 4: This was something that investigators who visited the crime scene 766 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 4: and investigators who looked at the evidence here saw something 767 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 4: being remarkably personal, remarkably brutal, the type of killing that 768 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 4: is meant to send a message. 769 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 770 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 771 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and 772 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. 773 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: Ella Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 774 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink 775 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,919 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen 776 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and 777 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 778 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show. 779 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: Go to midroll dot com, slash ads, and if you 780 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 781 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email 782 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe, and 783 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 784 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.