1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 2: I am seriously excited about today's podcast because we're talking 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 2: about an education solution that everyone wants and no one's 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: looking for. 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: And I'm going to explain. 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: What I mean by that a little bit later, but 7 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: I really think that today's podcast is going to blow 8 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 2: your mind if you have children or grandchildren in school today. 9 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 2: I'm so glad that Emily Hanford agreed to come on 10 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: the program because when I first heard her talking about reading, 11 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: it was funny because I'm listening to her talk about 12 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 2: how we're teaching reading in schools and I'm going, yeah, 13 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: uh huh, We've done that, Yes, my kids are learning 14 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 2: that way. And then it's this shocking moment where I'm like, yeah, 15 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: and we're having all those same struggles. This is really 16 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: hard way to learn to read. So I'm so excited 17 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: because she's going to talk all about this. Just before 18 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: we solve all of the reading problems in the United States, 19 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 2: I want to quickly talk about another big one, and 20 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: that is our health, because you can't put a price 21 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: on your health. 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Emily is a senior education correspondent at American 47 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 2: Public Media and host of the six part podcast series 48 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: Sold a story how teaching kids to read went so wrong. Emily, 49 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: I want to tell you that the way this was 50 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: introduced to me is obviously I ran for office and 51 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: a big part of our platform was that I felt, 52 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: if you can't read, you can't do anything. And I 53 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: come from manufacturing, so in my world people, I think 54 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 2: people wrongly assume, Oh, anybody can go into a shop 55 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: and work and everything is work constructions. 56 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: You have to be able to read to do anything 57 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: in life. 58 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: And after the race, a friend of mine sent me 59 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 2: your podcast series, and I was like, what could this 60 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 2: be about? And I just went from one to the 61 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: next to the next, and I couldn't I send it 62 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: to my mom. I'm like, oh, my goodness, this is 63 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: exactly what we've been dealing with. I have four girls, 64 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 2: one of my youngest, my youngest two are twins. One 65 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: of my youngest, the school said to me in first grade, 66 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: we don't really know what's wrong. We think she's dyslexic. 67 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: She's got a really big problem. Reading. And then it 68 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: was like, I mean, I almost feel emotional when I 69 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: say this because I listened to your podcast and I 70 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: was like, this is why, this is why. 71 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: So I'm going to let you talk. 72 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: I just I had to tell you that because it's 73 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: been so eye opening for me, and I feel like 74 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: we're missing the boat when we talk about everything. Even 75 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: if we're talking about school choice and everything, No matter what, 76 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: there are still schools teaching to read the wrong way. Okay, 77 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: so go tell us, tell the people what you know. 78 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for having me. It's good to be here. 79 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: You know, the story that you just told is a 80 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: story that I've heard from so many parents. So the 81 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 3: way this started for me was about six years ago. Now. 82 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: I actually started getting interested in this because I was 83 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: interviewing college students who had been put in these so 84 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 3: called remedial reading and writing classes, and they were telling 85 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 3: me their stories about struggling with reading, and here they 86 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 3: were in college, and they were essentially being told, you're 87 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 3: not ready for college because you can't read well enough. 88 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: And I was one of those people who learned to 89 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 3: read pretty easily. Some of us do. And it doesn't 90 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 3: have to do with intelligence, by the way, this is 91 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 3: one of the things that I've learned. It's a lot 92 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 3: of people, a lot more than many people probably think, 93 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 3: have a hard time learning how to read. They can 94 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 3: learn how to read, but they really need someone to 95 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 3: teach them how to do it. Some of us, the 96 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: minority of us, don't need a lot of instruction. But 97 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 3: what all this scientific research that's been done over the 98 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: last fifty years is I'll come back to, has shown us, 99 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: is that explicit instruction is really critical for most people 100 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 3: to become good readers. And some kids, and maybe one 101 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 3: of your daughters who were we were just talking about, 102 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 3: may need a lot of instruction and like a lot 103 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 3: of records. But anyway, to go back to my origin 104 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: story with this, I was a kid who learned to 105 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 3: read pretty easily. I don't think I needed much instruction. 106 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: I have two boys, they're twenty and twenty three. I 107 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 3: don't think they needed a whole lot of instruction either. 108 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 3: They learned to read pretty easily. I think I just 109 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 3: kind of assumed that people learned to read mostly by 110 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 3: being read to a lot. When they're kids, having exposure 111 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 3: to a lot's books, being motivated to read them, they 112 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: get a little bit of instruction in school. Of course 113 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 3: I sent my kids off to school. I assume they'd 114 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 3: be taught how to read. They learned how to read, 115 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 3: no problem. And then it was talking to these college 116 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 3: students and actually hearing that word dyslexia, which I didn't 117 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 3: really know very much about. So there was this one 118 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: student in particular who told me that she had dyslexia, 119 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: which is what she had found out about herself. Well, 120 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 3: what was so amazing to me is that she talked 121 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: about how no one had ever really taught her how 122 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 3: to read, just didn't know how to do it. No 123 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 3: one had identified her with dyslexia or given her any help. 124 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 3: So what happened is I sort of wound it back. 125 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 3: I was doing all of this reporting on who gets 126 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 3: access to higher education and different kinds of higher education, 127 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 3: than it came across the big stumbling block that many 128 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 3: people run into, which is sort of getting stuck in 129 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 3: these remediate classes. And I thought, uh, maybe need to 130 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 3: go look at what's happening in the beginning. Maybe we 131 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 3: have all kinds of kids with dyslexia who aren't getting 132 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: the help they need. And I think that's true. So 133 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 3: I started looking at dyslexia. But what I learned, like 134 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: my eyes just started being opened to the fact that 135 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: all of this stuff has been understood about reading and 136 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: how it works, why what dyslexia is, and why some 137 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: kids have a really, really hard time learning to read, 138 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 3: but also all of this other research that has just 139 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 3: revealed to us how reading works, like how do we 140 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 3: do that, how does that even work, how do we 141 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: learn to do it? What do we need to learn? 142 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 3: So really what happened is I was hearing the stories 143 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 3: from parents, moms like you, who had this moment of realizing, 144 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: like something, my kid is really struggling, and the school 145 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 3: doesn't seem to know what to do about it, or 146 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 3: sometimes maybe the school even is not even saying it's 147 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 3: a problem. I'm seeing some problem at home, but they're saying, 148 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 3: she's fine, it's fine, We're going to find her the 149 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 3: right book, she's going to get motivated. Anyway, That's where 150 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: this journey started for me and I have just been 151 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 3: reporting on this topic for six years, and the Solda 152 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 3: Story podcast, which came out last fall, is six episodes, 153 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 3: but there are actually two more that a lot of 154 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 3: people don't realize that came out in May so go 155 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: back and check those out, and we have another one 156 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: that's going to be coming out sometime in the new year. 157 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 3: And the bonus episodes are about the response to the podcast. 158 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 3: Who's been hearing it the parents, many teachers, many teachers. 159 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 3: That's who I'm hearing from more than any other category. Kids, 160 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 3: kids are hearing the way that they taught how to 161 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 3: read in zuld a story. And then the other bonus 162 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: episode is about the response to it on a policy level. 163 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: There's done a lot of legislative change as a result. 164 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, well, I think, what that's something we need 165 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: to cover because teachers have had a response. And one 166 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: of the things that I think was eye opening to 167 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: me as I'm listening, because I'm listening to your podcast 168 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: and you're talking about all these strategies that they were 169 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: using in our school, which is like, you know, cite 170 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: words and language and memorizing words rather than learning to 171 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: sound out words and why they sound the way they 172 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: do and all of that. And I mean, we've had 173 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: this conversation of phonics and whole word language, but it 174 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: goes beyond that what I was hearing. But the interesting 175 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: part about it is, I think from a political standpoint, 176 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: there's always a black and white you know this is 177 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: right and this is wrong. But when it was a 178 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: non political conversation, it's just a conversation of why do 179 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: we have so many kids that are struggling? And then 180 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 2: you start to unpack that these strategies that came out 181 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: as a great product that was sold to our public 182 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: schools and to all schools, really it turns out that 183 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: that may have been the way that kids who were 184 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: struggling to read, those strategies they were using. So now 185 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 2: we're taking good readers and we're giving them the strategies 186 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: kids that struggle use to actually learn to read. And 187 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: teachers were saying, wow, maybe this isn't right. It wasn't 188 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: offensive to the teacher, and this isn't on the teachers. 189 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: This is the program the teachers have been given. And 190 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: even teachers came out and said, yeah, maybe this isn't 191 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: the best way to teach them. 192 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: That I thought was fascinating. 193 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean so what you just said there, 194 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 3: I think is a point to just reiterate for the audience, 195 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: which is this is the big aha moment for me 196 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 3: to realize. Several years ago, back in twenty nineteen, I 197 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: did a recording project which was specifically about these strategies 198 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: that kids are taught about how to read words. When 199 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 3: they come across words, they don't know what are they 200 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 3: supposed to do, and they do things like they're being 201 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: told in classrooms to do things like look at the picture, 202 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 3: think of a word that makes sense, look at the 203 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 3: first letter of the word, look at the last letter 204 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 3: of the word. What's really interesting, monkey. 205 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: There's all these different things that they call it. And 206 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: that's how I'm. 207 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 3: Fish chunky monkey, yes, yes. 208 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: And I remember doing this with my kids and I'm like, wait, 209 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: we're chunking up this word to see if they can 210 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 2: find a word that they recognize inside of the word 211 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: that then they can and maybe figure out what the 212 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: rest of the word says, which I thought, I guess 213 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: that's how. 214 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: We do it now. 215 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: But then when I listen to what you had to say, 216 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm like, well, that makes sense that that's not a 217 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: great way to do it. But in that category of 218 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: people who's like, Okay, the school knows best, I'm gonna 219 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: send my kid there and they're gonna learn to read. 220 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 3: Really absolutely, I think every parent, you know, you basically 221 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: go in trusting right, And you know, I think no 222 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 3: small part of this is the role that the pandemic played. 223 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 3: So we can sort of wind back and talk about 224 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 3: some of the historical reasons and how this came to be. 225 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: But there's been a lot of parent activism over the 226 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: past ten or fifteen years, particularly the parents of kids 227 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 3: with dyslexia, right, So those are the kids who are 228 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 3: really harmed the most when schools are not teaching reading 229 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: in ways that line up with what we know about 230 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 3: how people learn to read. And the big aha about 231 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: those word reading strategies that you said before is that 232 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: when schools teach kids those strategies, it turns out that 233 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 3: they are teaching them the very things that struggling readers 234 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 3: do to get by. Because people are struggling with reading 235 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: can have There can be lots of reasons why reading 236 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: is hard for you, but a core reason, sort of 237 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 3: the most common and most debilitating source of reading problems 238 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 3: goes back to you just really have trouble with the words. 239 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 3: You don't know very well how to sound them out. 240 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 3: You haven't gotten good practice in that you haven't actually 241 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 3: sort of mapped those words into your memory, so they're 242 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 3: there for instant retrieval because you never really learned how 243 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 3: to sound them out. You don't need to be taught 244 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 3: these strategies. You actually don't need to be told. Look 245 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 3: at the letter, first letter, look at the picture. Think 246 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 3: of a word that makes sense. That's what people do 247 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 3: when they haven't been taught how to sound out the words. 248 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 3: They're thinking, what am I going to do with this word? 249 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: That's what they sort of figure out to do. So 250 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 3: that was the huge aha. Without realizing it, these strategies 251 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 3: made their ways into schools and teachers were teaching kids 252 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: to read in the ways that struggling readers read. And 253 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 3: I think, yeah, so that was a big aha for me. 254 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 3: And the Oldest Story podcast was really about how did 255 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: that happen? How did that happen? Because it doesn't seem 256 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 3: like it could happen. And I think it's important to 257 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 3: recognize that we have actually been arguing about how to 258 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 3: teach reading in this country for a long time. In fact, 259 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 3: you can go back to the founding of public education 260 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 3: in this country and see that there were like crazy 261 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 3: fights in this fabulously like this nineteenth century way where 262 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 3: these people were fighting with each other about how to 263 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 3: teach reading and they were very much fighting about phonics. 264 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 3: So phonics has been at the center of sort of 265 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 3: the wars about reading for a really long time, and 266 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 3: I think in a lot of ways it's been hard 267 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 3: to break through. It's become sort of politicized, and it's 268 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: become such a battle for so long that people sort 269 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 3: of assume that this is number one, all about phonics, 270 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 3: which it isn't, which we can come back to. And 271 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 3: number two, there's been sort of an assumption that phonics 272 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: is somehow traditional or old fashioned or conservative, and it 273 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: has been touted by some sort of conservatives and people 274 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: on the right. But I just want to have. 275 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: Funny that something that's just a learning process can become 276 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: Let's take a quick commercial break. 277 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,479 Speaker 1: We'll continue next on the Tutor Dixon podcast. 278 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: That's the thing that really struck me, I think as 279 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: I was going through this, because coming out of a 280 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 2: political race, I'm like, oh my gosh, are we just 281 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: really making putting these kids in a worse position, Because 282 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: it's like when politicians talk about something, it becomes weaponized. 283 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: And therefore that's why I said, it's like the solution 284 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 2: no one's actually looking for, because everybody wants to fight 285 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: and yet our kids can't read. 286 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: I think that's a really good point. And actually I 287 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: have to say that I feel kind of helpful, hopeful 288 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 3: on the fact that I think there is starting to 289 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 3: be a lot of bipartis in multipart is an agreement 290 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 3: on all of that. Like, I think a lot of 291 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 3: people come to this and sometimes assume that their old 292 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 3: notions of how this is political and how those politics 293 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: play out, and they're surprised. Like education upsets the apple 294 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,239 Speaker 3: cart all the time on politics, but this issue in particular. 295 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: I mean, I have people following me in social media 296 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 3: on the far right, the far left, and everywhere in between. 297 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 3: And I remember, even when I was starting to talk 298 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: to all of these cognitive scientists and others who've been 299 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: doing all this really amazing research over the last fifty 300 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 3: years or so that's really revealed all kinds of things 301 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: that we didn't know, just about how our brains learned 302 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 3: to read. I remember, you know, getting to that political question, 303 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: because inevitably there's so much politics around this. You've been 304 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 3: studying this for so long, Like, what are your politics? 305 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 3: Just tell me a little bit, you know, are you 306 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 3: coming Is there any kind of political game in here 307 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: for you. And you know, for the most part, a 308 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: lot of these scientists are very left. You know, these 309 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: are people in America's universities. Are like, no, I mean, 310 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 3: I don't come to this with any kind of part 311 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 3: as an agenda. I have just been studying how reading 312 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 3: works in the brain and how people learn to do that, 313 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 3: and what do kids need to be taught to become 314 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 3: good readers. 315 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: That is beautiful, and honestly, I will tell you that 316 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: the person who sent me your podcast is a dear 317 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: friend of mine who's very much on the left. And 318 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: I got this text and I was like, I mean 319 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: full disclosure. I'm like, oh, what's this going to be, 320 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: you know, And I'm like, oh, I love this person. 321 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to listen to this because they send it 322 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: to me and they're important to me. 323 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: But I'm not going to agree with it. That's what 324 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: I thought. 325 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: And so the first I mean the first few minutes, 326 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, my word, this is what we 327 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: are living too. 328 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: Right now, you know, with my littlest one. 329 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: And I sent it to my mom, who was a 330 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: reading specialist years and years ago, and she. 331 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: Was like, this is what I haven't been able to. 332 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: It's like it's hard. 333 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: You do such a great job of explaining it, because 334 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: it's hard to put into words why you think that 335 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: this isn't working, because it feels like it should work 336 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: because so many people, I mean, you say that it's 337 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: about sixty seven thousand elementary schools in the US are 338 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: using this program, right, It's a lot. 339 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 3: It's become very widespread, And I think it's also really 340 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 3: important to recognize that sould a story does actually focus 341 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 3: on some particular programs and particular people who have been 342 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 3: kind of the brand name version of these ideas. You know, 343 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 3: they're sort of like the Klinx or the Google or 344 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 3: whatever of these ideas. But as we say in the 345 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 3: very first episode, these ideas are very widespread. They're in 346 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: lots of materials, there's lots of publishing companies. They're sort 347 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: of baked into ideas that I think a lot of 348 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 3: people in education have in their head about reading and 349 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 3: how it works. So that's sort of how I what 350 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: I was trying to figure out years ago is I 351 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: was like, I think there's some sort of ideas, there's 352 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: like an ocean that everyone's swimming in about reading and 353 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 3: how to teach it, and it does, and you can 354 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: buy this curriculum or that curriculum or that curriculum. But 355 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 3: somehow you still get these ideas because there's a little 356 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 3: bit of it in a lot of curriculum, and it's 357 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 3: passed around from teacher to teacher, all those little eagle 358 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 3: eye and chunky monkey. You know. You go on teachers, 359 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: pay teacher, you go on to people, you will find 360 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 3: zillions of those. Right. That is not one publisher selling 361 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 3: that to the nation. That's lots of people selling different 362 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 3: versions of that. But it's all because there was a 363 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 3: certain idea about how this all works that got into 364 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 3: people's minds. And I'll tell you that here's one of 365 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 3: the reasons how I think it happened. I think we 366 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 3: fought about phonics for a long time. So that was 367 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 3: kind of like the lighter fluid in the wars about reading, 368 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 3: and so in some ways, in some ways those wars 369 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 3: kind of ostensibly ended, I don't know, ten or fifteen 370 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 3: years ago, when this thing called balance literacy came in, 371 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 3: which was really supposed to be the best of both worlds, 372 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 3: which was we're not the same old sort of whole language. 373 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,479 Speaker 3: People who were saying no phonics, no phonics, no phonics. 374 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: We're going to say, fine to phonics. We're going to 375 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 3: add a little bit of phonics in, but we're going 376 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 3: to stick to all these other things too. Are still 377 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 3: going to teach all those other strategies. And that's the 378 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 3: idea that's a story is trying to sort of reveal 379 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 3: and explain, and it's really subtle. It's this really subtle idea. 380 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 3: Like all of sould A Story, all eight episodes of 381 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: sold a Story, are just about one idea. It's like 382 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 3: six hours of listening. And the idea is basically, beginning 383 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 3: readers don't have to sound out the written words as 384 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 3: they're learning how to read. They can, but they don't 385 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: have to because we can teach them all these other 386 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 3: strategies to figure out what the words say. That's such 387 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 3: a subtle idea. It doesn't seem like a big deal, 388 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: but it's a very, very big deal because it turns 389 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 3: out that if you are not really laboriously sounding out 390 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 3: those words when you're starting to learn to read them, 391 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 3: they have a hard time getting into your brain, into 392 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 3: your memory so that they're there and available for you 393 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 3: in an instant. You and I are both good readers. 394 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 3: We know tens of thousands of words instantly on site. 395 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: But it's because at some point, maybe when we were 396 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 3: like six or seven years old, we sounded that word 397 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 3: out very laboriously. We connected the sounds and the word 398 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 3: with the spelling of the word, and the meaning of 399 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 3: the word. Three things, the sound, the spelling, and the meaning. 400 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 3: When those three things get linked in your brain, that 401 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 3: word gets into your brain, and that is what allows 402 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 3: you to be able to comprehend what you read, because 403 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 3: the words themselves aren't requiring a lot of brit of work. Right. 404 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 3: Every once in a while, it'll come across a word 405 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: that's you don't see that much or you've never seen before. 406 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 3: You have to stop, pause, think about it, sound it out, 407 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 3: maybe look it up whatever. But most of the words 408 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 3: that we're reading you've just got so you were able 409 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 3: to focus your attention on the meaning of what you're reading. 410 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: But for people who struggle with reading, they're focusing a 411 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: lot of their attention just on the words themselves. They're struggling, 412 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: they're trying to figure them out, they're trying to recall 413 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 3: them from memory, and so it's hard to focus on 414 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 3: the meaning of what you're reading. And reading is really slow. 415 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 3: So anyway, I think one of the reasons why those 416 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: ideas took off, which when you kind of start to 417 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: point out that they don't make sense, I think the 418 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 3: reason they made sense is because English is actually a 419 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 3: pretty difficult language to learn. How to read English is 420 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 3: probably one of the most difficult alphabetic languages to learn. 421 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 3: So even like a typically developing kid who doesn't have 422 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 3: any kind of reading disability is probably going to take 423 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: like two or three years with some instruction. Some kids 424 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 3: need a lot, some kids don't need much, but there's 425 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 3: a few years you're going to need to really master 426 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 3: the basics of how to like decode the English language 427 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 3: because it's complex. We have complex spelling patterns. People say, 428 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 3: like English is a wacky language, but it's actually not. 429 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 3: It's actually this really fascinating kind of melting thought language, 430 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 3: right because English is based on like Greek and Latin 431 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 3: and French and Anglo Saxon, and we borrow words from 432 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: other languages all the time. It's actually this really cool 433 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 3: language and you can explain the spelling of virtually every 434 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 3: English word if you sort of look at its history. 435 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 3: Where does it come from? And first of all that 436 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 3: stuff is fascinating. So I think one of the reasons 437 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 3: people didn't like phonics is they thought it would be 438 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 3: boring to kids. But the truth is that words and 439 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 3: how they're spelled it's so interesting. There's all kinds of 440 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 3: opportunities to like really teach kids cool stuff. But I 441 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 3: think because English is difficult to learn, means it's difficult 442 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 3: to teach. And there's a lot that teachers need to 443 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 3: know about how written English works that a lot of 444 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 3: us don't know. You can be a good reader without 445 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 3: being able to explain how English words are spelled. But 446 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 3: if you're teaching first grade and you're teaching kids to 447 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 3: do this, you actually need to know quite a bit 448 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 3: more than you and I do about English and how 449 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 3: it works. I don't know that a lot of first 450 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 3: grade teachers thought they were in for that, and a 451 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: lot of them didn't get that kind of training. It's 452 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 3: we don't have very good teacher training just sort of overall. 453 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: And they probably went through a lot of these same 454 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 2: strategies when they learned to read. 455 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: Absolutely so there's that like a lot of them learned 456 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 3: it in their teacher preparation programs and learned it themselves, 457 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 3: which means I think we're at a whole other point 458 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 3: with the way that this stuff has infused the culture 459 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 3: because the teachers themselves didn't even learn, many of them 460 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 3: how to sound out words when they were in school. 461 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 3: So I think these things caught on because teachers desperately 462 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 3: want to teach their students how to read. I have 463 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 3: not met a stet teacher who doesn't. No one goes 464 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: to school thinking I am going to make sure that 465 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 3: these kids that I teach these kids the habits of 466 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 3: struggling readers. No one is doing that, No, absolutely no one. 467 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 3: So you're getting into school, you don't know what you 468 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 3: need to know about written English and how it works. 469 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 3: You actually don't know as a teacher what you need 470 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 3: to know about just how kids learn to read and 471 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 3: why something like phonics instruction is so important. So you're 472 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 3: kind of like, and what do I do. I have 473 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five thirty kids, and I need to teach 474 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 3: them how to read. Oh, here are these strategies. These 475 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 3: strategies can help kids get into books. It's a way 476 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 3: to get them started. I can teach them. Oh, if 477 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 3: you're reading along, you come to a word, you don't 478 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 3: know what you what can you do. It kind of 479 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 3: gets kids going. And the assumption is that if you 480 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 3: kind of get kids going, they'll turn into readers. And 481 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: some of them do, but too many of them don't. 482 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 3: And that's what you're seeing, I think when you see 483 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 3: the dramatically poor reading sports we have in the center. 484 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 2: And two of my girls, what I noticed with two 485 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,479 Speaker 2: of them is that they can read the words, but 486 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 2: they don't retain what they meant. I don't know how 487 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: to explain that. It's like they can't the comprehension of reading. 488 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: They read it to get through it, but then o't. 489 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: Just last night, I was working with my sixth grader 490 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: and she has to read this article and then tell 491 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 2: me what she got from the article. And she took 492 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: a sentence and she's like, that's what it meant. And 493 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 2: I'm like, you just gave me the exact sentence from 494 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 2: the article. No, I'm like, what did that article. 495 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: Mean to you? 496 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: And it was a really eye opening moment where I 497 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: said to myself, here's my twelve year old and I'm 498 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: not fully sure that she can understand what she just read, 499 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 2: that she can grasp the whole concept. 500 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: And she struggles with spelling too. In sixth grade. 501 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 2: I have a sixth grader who struggles with comprehension and spelling, 502 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: and I have to say, I feel like it all 503 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: ties back to what you're talking about. 504 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 3: I mean, I can't you know, obviously, I cannot say 505 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 3: for sure. There could be a lot of different things 506 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 3: going on, but I do. I think that's one of 507 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 3: the reasons I've stayed on this for years is because 508 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 3: I've heard from a lot of middle school and high 509 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: school teachers who have told me, like who have talked 510 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: about how kids really struggle with reading, and they've sort 511 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 3: of vaguely diagnosed it as a comprehension problem, which it is. 512 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 3: But I think one of the things that many of 513 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 3: them are realizing is that it goes back to some 514 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 3: sort of word level reading problems and it can start. 515 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 3: You know, it's not one of the things that I 516 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 3: think is really important to understand. There's this thing called 517 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 3: the Matthew effect, and it comes from the Bible story. 518 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 3: It's like, basically, the rich get richer when it comes 519 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 3: to reading, right, So kids go into school and then 520 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 3: if they got off to a good start in reading, 521 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 3: there's this real reciprocal relationship between learning how to decode 522 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 3: and read the words, and then reading and getting better 523 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 3: at reading and learning more about language and how it works, 524 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 3: and learning new words through reading. Right, So there's this 525 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 3: way that the kids who get off to a good 526 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 3: start just start sort of doing really really well, and 527 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 3: then kids who don't get off to a good start 528 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 3: just sort of It's like it's not like the rich 529 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 3: get richer and the poor get poorer. It's like the 530 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 3: rich get richer and the poor just get a little 531 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 3: bit less poor every year. And that's where these big 532 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 3: gaps come in. So when you have a child in 533 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 3: sixth grade, a lot of things have probably happened, and 534 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 3: she may be able to read the words. I don't 535 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: know when you listen to her read out loud, is 536 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 3: she kind of slow? Does she stumble over the words? 537 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: Or is she just fluent and she can read them 538 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 3: pretty easily. 539 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: She she's slow. I think she's slower than what I 540 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: would imagine my oldest would have been at that age. 541 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 2: It's funny because I have two that are very good 542 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: readers that just picked it up, and two that struggle. 543 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 2: And there last night my one of my youngest ones, 544 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: one of the twins, the ten year old, we were 545 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 2: both reading through something at the same time, and I 546 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: walked away and she said, are you finished reading that already? 547 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: How did you do that so fast? So they notice 548 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: it too. It's not like they're they don't know what's happening. 549 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it's interesting. I mean, I think, 550 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 3: if you know, often when people are slow at reading, 551 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 3: it is interfering with their ability to comprehend right, because 552 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 3: they are spending a lot of time for working out 553 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 3: the words. But I think one of the other things 554 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 3: that starts to happen is because I think we're I 555 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 3: think a lot of schools are not getting early reading 556 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: instruction right. It sort of compromises what teachers can do 557 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: all the way up, so they end up having a 558 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 3: lot of kids in their classes in third grade, fourth grade, 559 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 3: fifth grade who are struggling with reading. And I think 560 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 3: that compromises sort of the level at which they can teach. 561 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 3: And so I think even some of the other things 562 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 3: that would be necessary for a child in sixth grade 563 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,719 Speaker 3: to really be good at comprehending what they read, some 564 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 3: of the kinds of comprehension strategies that that maybe she 565 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 3: hasn't been taught or learned a lot of that either. 566 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 3: So it's probably not just a word level problem at 567 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 3: this point, but it probably has its roots in a 568 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 3: word level problem. And this stuff gets really complicated and 569 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 3: messy as kids get older. And I will say it 570 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 3: gets complicated and messy in a lot of other ways, 571 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 3: because when kids struggle a lot of times they really 572 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 3: they feel bad about themselves. They feel kind of embarrassed, 573 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: they feel insecure. It's like very common for kids, yeah, 574 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 3: as pet yep, and for kids, especially boys, to start 575 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 3: to distract from their reading problems by having behavior problems. 576 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: And it's very common for other kids to shut down. 577 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 3: Often girls, you become the quietest one. You don't want 578 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 3: anyone to call on you. You don't want to be 579 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 3: read allowed to in class, and you don't like school. 580 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 3: And it was it was really it was. It was 581 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 3: parents I was talking to who were talking about like 582 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: kids would this one moment was talking about how her 583 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 3: dp she had, like her daughter's fingernails had like scraped 584 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 3: the doorframe of the front door because she would like 585 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 3: hold on to the door and not want to be 586 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 3: taken to the school bus. You know, she's just like 587 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 3: that's hard. 588 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 2: I know, I know it stinks and it's so hard 589 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 2: because we look at this and I think you're right, 590 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 2: everybody wants kids to learn to read. There's nobody that 591 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 2: goes and no parent that says this one that need 592 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 2: to read, and there's no teacher that says this one 593 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: will be fine. I mean, how much good is reading 594 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: going to do them? That just doesn't happen. And so 595 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: when I listened to your podcast, I. 596 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 3: Was like, wow, Wow, this is. 597 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: A whole new world of we could have, I mean, 598 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 2: so much opportunities. So how do you take that and 599 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: create something that works for kids? 600 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: How do how do we make these changes? 601 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: You said there's legislation, How do we do this without 602 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: people immediately putting up their wall, because I think that 603 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: with education, a lot of people put up a wall 604 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: right away. 605 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 3: They do. It's true. I mean, and you know, changing 606 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,479 Speaker 3: education is hard. Schools are complex, you know, school systems 607 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: are complex. Change doesn't happen quickly. This stuff does get 608 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 3: caught up in politics. So there's been a lot of 609 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 3: legislative action, some of it in response to sold a story, 610 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 3: but really there was a huge wave of legislative action 611 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: over the past like fifteen or twenty years with things 612 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 3: like good implementing that schools have to screen kids because 613 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 3: you really want to catch kids early when they're struggling. 614 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 3: You really want to know who's struggling. Are they using 615 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 3: good screeners, good assessments. There's been some not very good 616 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 3: assessments in schools. You know, are they really getting the 617 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 3: kind of help they need? Is a mom who goes 618 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 3: in and says, my kid is struggling. Does the school 619 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 3: have a plan for them? Does the school know what 620 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 3: to do? So a lot of the legislation was focusing 621 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,719 Speaker 3: on that. Since sold a story, we've seen a real 622 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 3: uptick in legislation that's focusing on the curriculum. And that's, 623 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 3: I guess not a surprise because we focused a lot 624 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 3: on the curriculum. I think it's important to recognize that 625 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 3: while sort of getting rid of curriculum that has wrong 626 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 3: ideas in it, it may be really important. The solution 627 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 3: isn't necessarily just buy a new curriculum. You go buy 628 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 3: a new curriculum. Is the school board, the superintendent says, 629 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: use this three years from now, we should expect, you know, 630 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: kids will be reading better. That is not going to happen. 631 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 3: That hasn't happened because this is complicated stuff. It's so 632 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 3: much more of it really has to do with the 633 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 3: teacher knowledge the teacher uptick is their teacher using it. 634 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,479 Speaker 3: Has the teacher gotten good training on how to use it. 635 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: There's no perfect curriculum out there either. You know, people 636 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 3: are saying, you know, go get a science of reading curriculum, 637 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 3: but there's no such thing. You know, the science of 638 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 3: reading is a body of research. It's not a thing 639 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 3: you do. It's not a program you buy, it's not 640 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 3: a law you pass. You know, it's a body of 641 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 3: research that thousands of cognitive scientists and psychologists and other 642 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 3: researchers all over the world and all kinds of languages 643 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 3: have been studying reading for the past fifty years. And 644 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: what my reporting has really focused on is what does 645 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 3: that research say. Why haven't teachers in schools known more 646 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 3: about it? And now the question is what do we do? 647 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 3: So this is where you know, many many teachers are 648 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: looking up and saying to the people above them the principles, 649 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 3: the superintendent's, the school boards, their state legislature, help me. 650 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 3: I need help. I need better materials, I need better training. 651 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 3: So a lot of this legislative response is in response 652 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 3: to that people on the bottom saying please help. But 653 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 3: of course every kind of legislative response has unintended consequences, right, 654 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: And I think when things get too top down, you 655 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 3: just it's a careful balance between top down and bottom up. 656 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 3: And I think we're just we're really in the midst 657 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: of that. There's been a wave of legislation, and I 658 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 3: think that's legislation can get people's attention on a problem. Right, 659 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 3: But just because you pass a law doesn't mean that 660 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 3: the law's going to get implemented well, that it's going 661 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 3: to get followed. So there's a lot to be done 662 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 3: for everyone to do to kind of keep their eyes 663 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 3: on are these laws having their intended effect, are they 664 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 3: being implemented well? Is there the proper support training A 665 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 3: lot of times that needs money to implement this. Well, 666 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 3: there's a lot to keep an eye on. 667 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 668 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon podcast. From just this talk today, that 669 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: we have teachers listening, that we have school board members listening, 670 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: and they just go, wow, this is an opportunity to 671 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: bring some some something extra to the school to make 672 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: sure that our kids are succeeding. Because we have horrendous 673 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: reading proficiency rates across the country and people can say, oh, 674 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: it's in certain districts, but we're seeing it no matter what. 675 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what district you're in, you can still 676 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: have a terrible reading proficiency rate. And that is, like 677 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: I said, no matter what you want to do in 678 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: the future, and no matter what class you are in, 679 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: whether it's math or science or history, you have to 680 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: be able to read. And so this is just holding 681 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: kids behind in every area. So I'm excited that. I mean, 682 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: we could talk about this. 683 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 2: I could talk to you about this for hours, but 684 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: you did talk about it for about six hours. So 685 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 2: I want people to go listen to that because I really, 686 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I cannot tell you if you have kids 687 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: in school or if you have grandchildren, you will listen 688 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: to this podcast and it will be an AHA moment 689 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: and it will inspire you to, even if it's not 690 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: as your school to at home, take a look at 691 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: things differently. Because like I said, I sent it right 692 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: to my mom. We were both like, oh, my goodness, 693 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: this is wild because now you just see what and 694 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: you I mean, I got to tell you. I felt 695 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 2: guilty because I'm like, how did I not see some 696 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 2: of this, but but I don't like the teachers who 697 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 2: even said, well, I just thought this was the best way. 698 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: So tell people who are listening where they can go 699 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: to get the podcast, listened to the podcast, and follow you. 700 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 3: It's called sold a Story, So you can just go 701 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 3: to your favorite podcast app if you're a podcast listener 702 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 3: and just put in sold a Story. We have a 703 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 3: website soldastory dot org, so you can listen to it 704 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 3: all there. You can also find links. We have some 705 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 3: articles there. We have a piece. We have an article 706 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 3: which is about some of the legislative action that's taken 707 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 3: place in the wake of Solda story, and you can 708 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 3: follow me. I'm on formerly known as Twitter x at 709 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 3: e hanfouth And yeah, I hope you do listen and 710 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 3: check out the two bonus episodes and stay tuned to 711 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 3: your feet because there's going to be another episode coming 712 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 3: in the new year. 713 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: Good. I'm going to check those out, and honestly, I 714 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: hope that people here will share. I've shared it on 715 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: Twitter formally or ext formally known as Twitter, whatever we 716 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: call it now. I've shared it several times, and I 717 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 2: honestly think that it's sort of one of those things 718 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,919 Speaker 2: where I am considered a Republican, so people are like, oh, 719 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 2: it's some a crazy thing. So I'm hoping that there 720 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 2: are people who are tuning in. But for all of 721 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: the people who are listening to this podcast, you have 722 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 2: the power to share this and it's not it's not political. 723 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 2: This is about getting kids to read, which I love. 724 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 2: I just love it, honestly. So thank you Emily Hanford, 725 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: thank you so much for being on. 726 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 3: With us today, thank you for your interest. 727 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and thank you all for joining us on this 728 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: very cool episode of the Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this 729 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 2: episode and others, you can check out tutordisonpodcast dot com 730 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 2: subscribe right there, or go to the iHeartRadio app or 731 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts and join us the next 732 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 2: time on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. 733 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: Have a blessed day.