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Speaker 1: Hey Ortay, As an artist, do you have a favorite

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Speaker 1: color that you use for scientific cartoons or some colors

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Speaker 1: more science y than others?

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Speaker 4: Well, it depends on the science. I mean some science

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Speaker 4: it's just more colorful than others.

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Speaker 1: So then what's the color of physics.

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Speaker 4: It kind of depends on the topic too. If it's

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Speaker 4: about lasers, I might use red, or if it's about

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Speaker 4: the sun, I might use a yellow. I've used Cian

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Speaker 4: for particle physics.

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Speaker 1: What makes particle of physics cian?

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Speaker 4: I don't know that just kind of would seem like

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Speaker 4: fit to the topic at the time. It just gives

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Speaker 4: you the blues, yeah, Or if it's a red hot topic,

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Speaker 4: I might go for a nice intense red. But for

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Speaker 4: our books they usually go with purple.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's purple about our curiosity?

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Speaker 4: It's more about the process, you know. It's kind of

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Speaker 4: mentally bruising, I mean mentally enlightening.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a supervision of both of those.

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Speaker 4: It's both blue and red, which makes purple. There you go. Hi,

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Speaker 4: I'm Hoorham Mack, cartoonas and the author of Oliver's Great

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Speaker 4: Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at U See Irvine. And my daughter tells me I

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Speaker 1: can't see mad.

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Speaker 4: WHOA wait? Does that mean that you can't get mad

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Speaker 4: or that you don't see the color red?

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Speaker 1: Yes. As a parent of a stubborn toddler, I never

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Speaker 1: once got mad, absolutely kept my cool every single moment. No,

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Speaker 1: she and I disagree a lot about what to call

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Speaker 1: various colors. And she's convinced I'm partially colorblind.

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Speaker 4: WHOA have you ever had it checked? Maybe it's true.

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Speaker 4: What does that mean? You can't tell colors apart or

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Speaker 4: you can't seek certain colors? But how do you know

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Speaker 4: you can't see them?

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Speaker 1: You can do these tests where you're supposed to see

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Speaker 1: numbers out of dots. But she just likes showing me

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Speaker 1: lots of different shades and asking me to come up

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Speaker 1: with names of them. And I'm always like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know wild Mountain raspberry, and she's like, that's not red,

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Speaker 1: it's purple or something.

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Speaker 4: Sounds like she just likes to disagree with you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I raised her right, Yeah, you raised

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Speaker 1: her to make you read all the time.

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Speaker 4: But anyways, Welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 4: the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio in.

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Speaker 1: Which we try to pencil in an explanation for how

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Speaker 1: the universe works. We try to color inside the lines

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Speaker 1: and help you understand how this incredible, glittering, beautiful, bizarre

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Speaker 1: and crazy cosmos actually works. How all those quantum mechanical

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Speaker 1: little particles come together to emerge into this incredible experience

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Speaker 1: that we all enjoy.

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Speaker 4: That's right. We try to paint a picture for you

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Speaker 4: of our amazing and beautiful universe using all of the

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Speaker 4: hues of the rainbow to try to communicate to you

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Speaker 4: all the feelings and impressions that the universe has given

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Speaker 4: us as a human race.

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Speaker 1: In science is trying to build a bridge between our

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Speaker 1: visceral experience, what you actually feel as a conscious entity,

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Speaker 1: and our mental picture of what's out there in the universe,

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Speaker 1: the mental model we're all putting together trying to explain

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Speaker 1: how the universe itself, absent from our humanity, actually works.

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Speaker 1: But in the end, we never probe that deep reality

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Speaker 1: independent of our senses. We're only limited to understanding how

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Speaker 1: it works as filtered by our eyes and ears and

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Speaker 1: fingertips and everything else.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and as we look at the universe and filter

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Speaker 4: it through our eye, sometimes it makes us red with

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Speaker 4: anger about the things we don't understand, or blue about

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Speaker 4: the things we may never understand, and sometimes maybe even

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Speaker 4: green and envy of maybe possible aliens out there that

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Speaker 4: have figured it out. Did it miss a color? Orange?

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Speaker 4: Mass orange for a nice glass of orange trees?

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Speaker 1: Aren't you glad you made that pun?

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Speaker 4: Nice?

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Speaker 1: All these things are part of our experience. The color

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Speaker 1: purple in your mind is not actually part of the universe,

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Speaker 1: is just part of your experience of the universe. Somehow,

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Speaker 1: over the centuries and millennia, we have been able to

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Speaker 1: piece together a picture of how the universe out there

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Speaker 1: might actually work, perhaps independent of our senses, though of

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Speaker 1: course we won't know until those aliens come and talk

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Speaker 1: to us about the colors they see in the universe.

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Speaker 4: Do you think they're a colored line too? Like Daniel,

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Speaker 4: we think the answer to the universe is a light

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Speaker 4: shade of lavender summer breeze. And then we end up

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Speaker 4: disagreeing about what that means.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think whatever answer they have, my daughter will

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Speaker 1: disagree with him. That's how I raised her.

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Speaker 4: Let's not put her in the greeting committee.

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Speaker 1: I think we agree on that. Oh my gosh. Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's not send Daniel's children to meet the aliens.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, unless they start an intergalactic war.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the colors are sacred to them. And if Hazel

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Speaker 1: disagrees about what's purple and what's red, she's going to

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Speaker 1: really piss them off.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, or they might disagree about the color hazel itself.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, exactly are.

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Speaker 4: You called hazel if you're not the color of a

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Speaker 4: hazel nut. That's it. Forget this human race. It doesn't

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Speaker 4: make any sense.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. You know, we named her

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Speaker 1: hazel before we knew her. But she does turn out

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Speaker 1: to like the color hazel and hazel nuts, so there's

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Speaker 1: a win.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but how do you know she's actually seen the

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Speaker 4: color Hazel's hazel blind?

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Speaker 1: M hazel blind.

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Speaker 4: Wow, it's all hazy to her, it is.

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Speaker 1: But we are fascinated by this concept of color, not

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Speaker 1: just because it's such a visceral part of our experience,

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Speaker 1: but because it's deeply connected to the physics of what's

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Speaker 1: happening out there in the universe. It tells us something

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Speaker 1: about how photons are wiggling, or how neutrinos are flying

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Speaker 1: through the universe, if you're willing to apply red and

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Speaker 1: blue shifts to them as well. So this concept of color,

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Speaker 1: what we see what's out there in the universe. It's

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Speaker 1: very confusing but also very illuminating about how the universe

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Speaker 1: actually works.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of physics in light and in

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Speaker 4: all the colors. But then, as you said, it gets

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Speaker 4: filtered through our eyes and our brains, and sometimes what

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Speaker 4: we see is not quite what's out there, and maybe

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Speaker 4: there might be things out there that are maybe impossible

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Speaker 4: for us to experience.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's right. We know that there are frequencies of

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Speaker 1: light the humans can never experience, but are there also

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Speaker 1: colors that are impossible to see?

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Speaker 4: So to the end podcasts, we'll be tackling the question

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Speaker 4: what is an impossible color?

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Speaker 1: It sounds like a job for Tom Cruise.

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Speaker 4: Dunt dunt du du dunt stunt.

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Speaker 1: This color will self destruct after you view it.

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Speaker 4: We need a movie in which Tom Cruise is a physicist. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean he'd have to wear a lot of like

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Speaker 4: wigs and prosthetics. Of course, he can't look like Tom Cruise.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's too sexy to be a physicist. Is that

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Speaker 1: what you're saying. I didn't say that he violates some

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Speaker 1: physical law.

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Speaker 4: He's to orange.

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Speaker 1: He's definitely very physical, even if he's not a physicist. Right,

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Speaker 1: he does his own stunts.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I wonder if he would do

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Speaker 4: his own stunts in a physics movie. Like, would you

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Speaker 4: actually sit on the couch all day? I mean, that's

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Speaker 4: it's probably more dangerous and jumping off a cliff.

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Speaker 1: Then you put all those professional nap stunters out of

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Speaker 1: work and you can just take naps on film as.

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Speaker 4: A Wait wait, wait, that's a career. I can be

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Speaker 4: a stunt napper exactly.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, there's a career for everything.

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Speaker 4: They're doing it all this time for free.

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Speaker 1: Daniel, you know that the sign of an advanced civilization

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Speaker 1: is specialization, right, And I think once we've achieved stunt napping,

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Speaker 1: we've reached the pinnacle of civilizations. The aliens will be impressed.

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Speaker 4: Oh they might even hire us to nap for them.

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Speaker 1: Well there's a.

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Speaker 4: Twist ending, but yeah, this is an interesting question, the

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Speaker 4: idea that there might be colors out there that are

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Speaker 4: impossible to create, to experience, to see, to generate what

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Speaker 4: side of the color spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Are we Yeah, it's a complicated question because color is

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Speaker 1: intimately connected with frequency, and we think about it as

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Speaker 1: controlled by light, but really it's something inside our minds,

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Speaker 1: something generated by our brain. It's an experience, and the

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Speaker 1: colors you experience in the end come from the signals

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Speaker 1: that travel up the optic nerve, which are not physical,

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Speaker 1: they're just interpreted by your brain, and so it's interesting

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Speaker 1: to think about whether there are colors that cannot be

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Speaker 1: described by those signals.

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Speaker 4: Oh boy, is this going to get into philosophy, Daniel, Like,

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Speaker 4: what colors can a bat see?

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Speaker 1: That's actually a great idea for paper. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: write that when we're done with this episode.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what color is your bad wing?

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Speaker 1: Everything in the end is philosophy if you care about

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Speaker 1: what it means. Right, So if you're going to answer

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Speaker 1: the question what does that mean anyway, then yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: getting into philosophy.

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Speaker 4: That sounds like a philosophical statement in itself, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: The philosophy of philosophy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you can get a phphphd.

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Speaker 1: In recursive philosophy.

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Speaker 4: In computer science philosophical puzzles. Well, as usually, we were

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Speaker 4: wondering how many people had thought about this question of

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Speaker 4: what is an impossible color? And so, as usual, Daniel

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Speaker 4: went out there to the internet to ask people this question.

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much to everybody who answers these questions for

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Speaker 1: the podcast. If you would like to hear your voice

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Speaker 1: on future episodes, please write to me two questions at

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Speaker 1: danielan Jorge dot com.

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Speaker 4: So think about it for a second. What do you

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Speaker 4: think is an impossible color? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 5: So color is just a construct of our brain decoding

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Speaker 5: the frequency of electradiation. If you think about it and

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Speaker 5: imagine our rods and cones were tuned a little wider

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Speaker 5: and we could actually see an infrared and ultraviolet, and

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Speaker 5: colors we can't see would be associated with those frequencies.

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Speaker 5: So I guess every color associated with low frequency radio

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Speaker 5: all the way to gamma rays would be impossible colors.

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Speaker 6: If color is just how we perceive different wavelengths of light,

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Speaker 6: and light can be in a huge range of wavelengths,

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Speaker 6: it has something to do with the limits of the

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Speaker 6: wavelength approaching either zero or infinity, where suddenly color doesn't

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Speaker 6: make any sense anymore.

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Speaker 7: An impossible color, oh, very interesting. I'm going to say

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Speaker 7: some sort of combination of spectral outputs that are that

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Speaker 7: is a different spectral resolution than what our the receptors

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Speaker 7: of our eyes are able to something to do with

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Speaker 7: color metamerism.

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Speaker 4: The interesting answers. I feel like nobody pitched the idea

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Speaker 4: that maybe it's a color that's made out of plant based.

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Speaker 1: Proteins vegan colors.

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Speaker 4: Wow, yes, No, no animals or creatures were harmed in

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Speaker 4: the making of this color.

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine a way you might harm an

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Speaker 1: animal to make a color you're talking about, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: let's see red, We're going to spill something's blood. Like

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Speaker 1: it seems pretty unnecessary.

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Speaker 4: I think, Daniel, you just don't have this strong enough imagination. No,

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Speaker 4: but there are colors that are based on or additionally,

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Speaker 4: there are dyes that are based on like insects, like

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Speaker 4: insect juice.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, interesting, But.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how vegans draw that line.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're gonna have to have some of them

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Speaker 1: on the podcast to answer the question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sounds like good question for Katie. All right, well,

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Speaker 4: let's dig into this question of what an impossible color is.

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Speaker 4: Whether it means we can't see it, we can't make it,

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Speaker 4: it can't exist in the universe. Let's figure it out. So, yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, what are the basics of light and color?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's start outside the human brain before we

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Speaker 1: get into like signal processing and all that stuff, and

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Speaker 1: just begin with light. Right, light we know is made

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Speaker 1: of electromagnetic fields. There are ripples in electromagnetic fields. So

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Speaker 1: we have electrical fields that can be made by like electrons,

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Speaker 1: and magnetic fields that are made by magnets. And light

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Speaker 1: is a coupling of the electric fields and the magnetic

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Speaker 1: fields together. Electric fields can induce magnetic fields, magnetic fields

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Speaker 1: can induce electric fields. Light is like this perfect little

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Speaker 1: packet where it's slashing back and forth between electric fields

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Speaker 1: and magnetic fields in amazing harmony, and it can propagate

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Speaker 1: through the universe, this little oscillation of the fields. And

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Speaker 1: these oscillations have frequencies that have a wavelength, they have

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Speaker 1: a frequency that relates to their energy. So if you

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Speaker 1: have a beam of light, for example, coming out of

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Speaker 1: a flashlight, it's actually made out of little photons, and

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Speaker 1: each photon has a specific energy which has a specific

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Speaker 1: wavelength and a specific frequency. So that's what light is, right,

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Speaker 1: these packets of photons.

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Speaker 4: So I have this laser and I'm shooting it and

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Speaker 4: there are photons coming out of it, and each photon

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Speaker 4: is like a wiggle in the electromagnetic field. Is that

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Speaker 4: what it is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, each photon is a wiggle in the electromagnetic field,

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Speaker 1: but it's.

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Speaker 4: Not a wiggle that's like propagating like if I throw

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Speaker 4: a pebble in a pond, it's not spreading out there

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Speaker 4: like that, right, Like in a laser, these things are

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Speaker 4: going in a straight line.

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Speaker 1: These things are going in a straight line. And we

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Speaker 1: just did a really fun but very confusing episode about

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Speaker 1: how long is the photon? And if you didn't listen

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Speaker 1: to that one.

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Speaker 4: I was going to listen to it. But it's a

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Speaker 4: little long. It was not a light topic.

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Speaker 1: And that tells you that real photons out there in

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Speaker 1: the universe are a little packets. They have a length

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Speaker 1: that's determined by the spread of the frequency. So in

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Speaker 1: a sort of idealized sense, you can imagine every photon

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Speaker 1: has exactly one frequency. It's like a pure little packet

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Speaker 1: of one energy, one wavelength, one frequency. But that's actually

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Speaker 1: mathematically very confusing because if it was like that, it

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Speaker 1: would be everywhere in the universe. And so to build

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Speaker 1: up a little packet that actually moves through the universe,

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Speaker 1: a little blob that stays together and flies through space,

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Speaker 1: you have to have a little bundle of frequencies. So

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Speaker 1: you know, blue photon is like a little spread of

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Speaker 1: various blue frequencies, and a red photon is a little

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Speaker 1: packet of a handful of differently red frequencies.

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Speaker 4: And they're all going at the same speed, which is

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Speaker 4: the speed of light.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, they all go the same speed even though

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Speaker 1: they have a different wavelength and a different frequency, and

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Speaker 1: the speed of light is the same across the spectrum.

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Speaker 1: That's at least in our current theory. There are theories

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Speaker 1: of physics like rainbow gravity, where different frequencies travel at

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Speaker 1: different speeds and you get like weird effects around the

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Speaker 1: edges of black holes are in their current theory physics,

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Speaker 1: and according to all of our measurements, every photon travels

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Speaker 1: at the same speed.

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Speaker 4: And the spectrum of frequencies that light can have. It's

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Speaker 4: basically one dimensional, right, Like there's only one knob for

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Speaker 4: the frequency of light.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're going to think about a photon.

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Speaker 4: From zero to infinity, hmm, But it's just a line,

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Speaker 4: and if you were to draw a plot of.

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Speaker 1: It, Yes, exactly, it's one dimensional. It's a great way

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Speaker 1: to think about it. And it is infinitely dense, right,

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Speaker 1: there's an infinite number of frequencies there. We think of

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Speaker 1: these things as like, oh, they're quantum mechanical, so it

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Speaker 1: must be discrete. Must be broken up into chunks, right,

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Speaker 1: But the reality is that free objects, even free electrons,

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Speaker 1: are not quantized in their energy levels. They're quantized in

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Speaker 1: the number of photons. Like you can't have one point

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Speaker 1: seven photons or two point two seven photons. You can

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Speaker 1: have one or two or nineteen. But each photon can

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Speaker 1: have any energy. There's no limitation, there's no quantitization, there's

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Speaker 1: no descritization of the energy spectrum. But yes, it is

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Speaker 1: one dimensional that.

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Speaker 4: You know of the right, Like, is it possible that

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Speaker 4: maybe frequency is quantized as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in our current theory, that's the case. There are

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Speaker 1: theories of quantum gravity in which like space is pixelated,

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Speaker 1: which would make like a minimum wavelength, and in that

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Speaker 1: case every distance is quantized. In our current theories, there's

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Speaker 1: no minimum frequency, but that doesn't actually really make sense

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Speaker 1: below like the plank length, where every photon would like

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Speaker 1: collapse into a black hole anyway, So it only really

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Speaker 1: applies up to a very very high energy, but much

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Speaker 1: higher than we could probe today.

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Speaker 4: All right, So that's the physics of it. Now let's

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Speaker 4: get into the biology of it. So when these photons

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Speaker 4: hit our eyes, they create and experience in our brains.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's one step before that, which is reflection. Like,

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Speaker 1: let's imagine we're looking at a banana, right, why do

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Speaker 1: we see the banana as yellow. We see the banana

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Speaker 1: as yellow because white light hits the banana from the sun,

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Speaker 1: and then some of it is absorbed and some of

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Speaker 1: it is reflected. You start with almost every frequency of

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Speaker 1: light you can see hitting the banana, but then the

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Speaker 1: banana has chemicals in it and atoms, and those atoms

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Speaker 1: prefer to absorb some colors and not absorb other colors.

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Speaker 1: And so when you see yellow as banana, that means

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Speaker 1: that the wavelength of light that is being reflected is

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Speaker 1: a specific band in this case, like between five hundred

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Speaker 1: and seventy and five hundred and eighty nanometers. So you

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Speaker 1: see something as red, it's not because it's like absorbing

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Speaker 1: the red light, right, It's because it's reflecting the red

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Speaker 1: light and absorbing everything else. But then, yeah, it hits

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Speaker 1: your eyeball, and those photons with a certain frequency are

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Speaker 1: now going to be interacted with by your eye, which

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Speaker 1: is like basically little observational device.

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Speaker 4: But wait, the banana, So the banana absorbs all frequencies

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Speaker 4: except maybe the kinds that are my brain will interpret

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Speaker 4: as yellow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not all frequencies, but all visible ones. Right, banana

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Speaker 1: can't necessarily absorb all X rays and gamma rays or infrared,

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Speaker 1: but in the visible spectrum. And again and not even

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Speaker 1: all of that, right, Like you see it yellow because

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Speaker 1: it's dominant in the yellow. It's never like intense and

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Speaker 1: yellow and zero in every other frequency.

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Speaker 4: It just peaks unless it's like a perfect banana, Like,

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Speaker 4: is it possible to create a perfect banana that only

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Speaker 4: reflects like one frequency of yellow.

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Speaker 1: If you make a shade which only reflects one frequency

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Speaker 1: of yellow, I think Hazel would call that perfect banana.

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Speaker 1: That is a nice name for a yellow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exact banana, yes.

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Speaker 1: Exact scientific banana.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So there's a reflection. And also I mean there's

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Speaker 4: filtering too. But while we're talking about it, like it right,

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Speaker 4: like if I have rose colored glasses, the world looks

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Speaker 4: rose to me because it's filtering out all frequencies except

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Speaker 4: the ones that I see is rose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's filtering. There's a reflection. All this affects

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Speaker 1: the frequencies that actually hit your eyeball. But I hear

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Speaker 1: a lot of confusion out there and the questions I

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Speaker 1: get from listeners about what makes something a color, whether

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Speaker 1: it's absorbing it or reflecting it, And so it's important

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Speaker 1: to remember that the color is something that's in your

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Speaker 1: eye depends on the light that hits your eyeball. You

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Speaker 1: can only see something if it hits your eyeball. For example,

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Speaker 1: if a photon was flying in front of your face,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't see it, right, It just flies past you.

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Speaker 1: You don't see like a little glowing blob going through

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Speaker 1: the universe. You imagine your visual perception is giving you

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Speaker 1: an accurate description of everything that's out there in the universe,

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Speaker 1: but you only see things that hit your eyeball. Photon

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Speaker 1: that passes in front of you doesn't send any signals

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Speaker 1: to you, so you don't see it.

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Speaker 8: Right.

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Speaker 4: Like if someone to my right shoots a laser to

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Speaker 4: my left, I won't see it. It has they have

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Speaker 4: to be shooting into my eye for me to see.

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Speaker 1: The laser, yeah, Or it has to hit dust particles

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Speaker 1: along the way or air and ionize that and make

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Speaker 1: a glow or a reflection. Right. But a perfect laser

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Speaker 1: in a vacuum you will not see until it slices

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Speaker 1: your head open.

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Speaker 4: The photons, ever, split into other photons.

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Speaker 1: Photons can convert into electron positron pairs, which can then

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Speaker 1: interact with other stuff, like including other photons and do

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Speaker 1: crazy stuff. That efferthing could happen, and those could create

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Speaker 1: other photons. So that can happen, but it's quantum mechanically

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Speaker 1: pretty rare. If you pass a photon through a special

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Speaker 1: kind of non linear crystal, it can split into two

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Speaker 1: other photons. Use that for important experiments to like detect

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Speaker 1: single photons. But mostly photons just fly through the universe.

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Speaker 1: That's why we can see them after billions of years

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Speaker 1: and across billions of light years. They're pretty reliable indicators

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Speaker 1: of what emitted them.

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Speaker 4: All right, So photons can't have all these frequencies. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: they get filtered, or when they bounce off of things,

443
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 4: they get some of them make it out of the

444
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,120
Speaker 4: bounds and they sometimes hit our eyes, and then that's

445
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 4: our experience of seeing.

446
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: Things, yeah, exactly, and also our eyeballs do some filtering,

447
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,199
Speaker 1: right to be experienced. The photon has to make it

448
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: into the pupil and then through the lens and then

449
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 1: all the way to the back of the retina where

450
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: it can actually be interacted with. That's where there are

451
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 1: these proteins which either turn on or turn off based

452
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 1: on the frequency of light. So you have these like

453
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 1: array of sensors in the back of your eyeballs which

454
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 1: can detect photons.

455
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 4: Did you look into how that works? Like there's a

456
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,239
Speaker 4: molecule on the surface of the receptor there and then

457
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 4: it just gets activated and it wiggles, and then how

458
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 4: does that Does it release a chemical or does it

459
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 4: create an action potential? How does it work?

460
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's actually really amazing. It's like a little machine

461
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: and it actually changes the protein's configuration when it absorbs

462
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: the photon. It flips like almost a physical switch on

463
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 1: this chemical to change its configuration and that adds energy

464
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 1: to it and then that's picked up by the optic nerve.

465
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,400
Speaker 1: It's really kind of amazing chemistry. And you have these things.

466
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 1: They're scattered all over the back of your eye. Of course,

467
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 1: people know there's two different kinds. There's rods which basically

468
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 1: give you black and white vision. They're sensitive across the

469
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: spectrum wall.

470
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 4: What does that mean, Like any photon of any frequency

471
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 4: will activate them or not.

472
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: It's not exactly flat across the spectrum. But essentially, yes,

473
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: they're not very frequency specific, they're not choosing. They're very

474
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: very sensitive. Yeah, they're not choosy, but they're very good

475
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 1: at picking out photons. They're much better than the cone.

476
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: So they're good for like at night, is there a

477
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: predator there or not? You don't really care if it's

478
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 1: red or green. You just want to know if it's

479
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 1: something there.

480
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 4: Basically, it gives the sense of like brightness or darkness.

481
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, it's like black versus white. But then you

482
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: have these other sensors, these cones. There's three different kinds

483
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: of them. You have like six or seven million in

484
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: the back of each eyeball, and most of them are

485
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: actually concentrated in a tiny little spot in the retina

486
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: near the center of your vision, so you have like

487
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: color vision near the center of your eyeball, but mostly

488
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 1: black and white in the rest, which is fascinating. And

489
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: each of these cones responds to a different frequency of light,

490
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: so it has like a protein on it, and a

491
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 1: different protein for each kind. You have three different kinds,

492
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 1: and those proteins are tuned to flip or to not

493
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: flip for different frequencies of light, So one of them

494
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: mostly flips on for blue light, another one mostly flips

495
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: on for green, another one flips on for like yellowish red.

496
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 4: Light, and it so did they sort of ignore the

497
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 4: other frequencies.

498
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: They don't exactly ignore them, right, They're not in very

499
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: narrow bands. So one of them does peak in the blue,

500
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: and one peaks in green, and one peaks in the red.

501
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,959
Speaker 1: If you imagine, like, what's the probability for this protein

502
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 1: to flip based on the frequency of light, Well, the

503
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: blue one will almost always flip for a blue one,

504
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: but it'll sometimes flip for a green one, though not

505
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: as reliably. And the red one will always flip for

506
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 1: a red one, and sometimes for a green one, and

507
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: occasionally even for a blue one. So they're a little

508
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: bit overlapping. They're not like perfect bands.

509
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 4: Right, They're fuzzy. They can each will react to a

510
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 4: certain range of frequencies. Where those frequencies are centered it

511
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 4: kind of depends on the type of cone.

512
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so you have three of these, each

513
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: of which are centered at different places in the spectrum,

514
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: and then what your brain does is interpret the signals

515
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: from these cones to figure out, oh, how blue was it. So,

516
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: for example, if you get a signal only from blue

517
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: cones and nothing from the red and the green one,

518
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: then you're like, Okay, that must have been pretty blue

519
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 1: in order to signal the blue ones and not signal

520
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: the other ones. But if you get something that signals

521
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: the blue one and the green one and not the

522
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: red one, then you're like, okay, it was blue green,

523
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: And so you can sort of trying where it is

524
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: on the spectrum by the ratios of how these things react.

525
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 4: Interesting. All right, Well, let's get to this idea that

526
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 4: maybe there are colors that are impossible for us to

527
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 4: see even with our rods and cones. So let's dig

528
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 4: into that. But first let's take a quick break.

529
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Speaker 4: All right, we're talking about color today, hopefully not getting

598
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 4: too off.

599
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: Color depends on if you think philosophy is off color

600
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: or not. What is the color of philosophy?

601
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 4: Jorge, WHOA, Well that's getting a little purple.

602
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: Are I didn't mean to ask a lavender question.

603
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 4: Well you don't have to yellow it, Daniel. All right, Well,

604
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 4: we're talking about how we experience light, and so we

605
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 4: know that light are photons. They come in different frequencies.

606
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 4: There are frequencies from here to infinity. But our eyes

607
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 4: have these sensors that can detect photons around certain frequencies

608
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 4: and those are the ones that generally we would associate

609
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 4: as red, green.

610
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: And blue right RGB. And it's fascinating that here we've transformed,

611
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: as you said, an infinite one dimensional spectrum, photons could

612
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: be anywhere along the spectrum to now sort of this

613
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: three D spectrum RGB, right, And the color that we

614
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: perceive depends in principle on the photon, but really depends

615
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: on the signals from these neurons, which is in this

616
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: three D space of red, green, or blue. You got

617
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: these signals from these neurons, and once you experience is

618
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: in your mind is just an interpretation of this point

619
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: in this three dimensional RGB space.

620
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 4: I guess maybe a question you could ask is like,

621
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 4: why are we doing it this way? Why are we

622
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 4: seeing the world this way? Why don't we just why

623
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 4: didn't evolution come up with a answer. They can just

624
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 4: tell you what the frequency of light is.

625
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: That's fascinating question. And there are some clues based on

626
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: the variety of the way the color perception works in

627
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: the animal kingdom, Like we know that we have these

628
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: three sensors, but there's nothing special about three. Like people

629
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: think of RGB as the fundamental basis of color, but

630
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: it's just so the way the human eye works. There

631
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: are critters out there with like eleven different sensors. The

632
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: mantis shrimp I think has like fourteen, and there are

633
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: and there are species out there that can see a

634
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: broader range or a narrower range of colors, just depends

635
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: on what's more efficient. The fascinating thing is that the

636
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: more sensors you have, the better you are typically of

637
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: being able to tell the difference between shades. So if

638
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: you like really need to know the difference between dark

639
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: green and light green. You might evolve more sensors or

640
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: more sort of like processing power to be able to

641
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: distinguish these signals.

642
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess the more sensors you have, like kind

643
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 4: of like posts you put in the frequency spectrum, the

644
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 4: more you can tell things apart.

645
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes, like the mantis shrimp is famous for having like

646
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: fourteen different sensors. You might think, wow, they must see

647
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: the world and really vivid color, but they have very

648
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: very few neurons to back it up behind that, so

649
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: it's like they have really really good hardware but terrible software,

650
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: So they might actually not experience more colors than we do,

651
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: like the actual experience of a Manti strimp who can

652
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: never know right until we write that paper. But I

653
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: think it takes both complex hardware and complex software to

654
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: experience a broad variety of colors.

655
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 4: I'm sure those fourteen sensors are doing something right, like

656
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 4: it's letting it discriminate the certain specific colors or certain

657
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 4: specific patterns. But maybe after that, it's just not like

658
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 4: the manta strip is not appreciating the color.

659
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: It depends a lot on the processing, right, you get

660
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: these signals if you have very crude responses to them,

661
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: very crude, like neural networks behind them to help you

662
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: know how to respond to them, very wide bins in

663
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: your response, for example, you could be wasting a lot

664
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: of that information. You know. Imagine you have like a

665
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: super excellent microphone and then a terrible cable to store

666
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: it in very low fidelity file format could be very lossy.

667
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: This is all very very speculative, of course, and there's

668
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: experiments going on to try to understand what mentustrimp experience.

669
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: But there are some humans that have more than three cones.

670
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: They're called tetra works. Yeah, like mutants, Yes, mutants exactly,

671
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: But there are people have four different kinds of cones.

672
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: When I first heard of that, I thought, whoa, they

673
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: must have a fourth color.

674
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 4: How does that happen? Like they have a mutation that

675
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 4: produces a whole different fourth kind of cone.

676
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, very rare. Then you can spot them, not because

677
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: they see a different color we think. It's not like

678
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: there's a fourth color that adds to RGB that they

679
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: can experience that we can't. It's just that they tend

680
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: to be better discriminating between colors, so like they might

681
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: pass a color blindness test that the rest of us

682
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: would fail. If you put like a really really subtle

683
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: difference between the greens and the blues, for example, they

684
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: might pick something out that other people can't.

685
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 4: If you put like a Stanford athlete next to a

686
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 4: Harvard athlete and you'd ask them like, which one is which,

687
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 4: you'd be like, wait, what, They're the same? They just

688
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 4: look red. But you know, maybe a more discerning person

689
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 4: might say, oh, no, that's a crimson and then the

690
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 4: other one's like a wine red.

691
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: Junior college red. Yeah exactly. Yeah, yeah, way to come

692
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: up with an example that's really relatable. I'm suing a

693
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: lot of people really struggle with their things.

694
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 4: I mean, if you put a banana slug next to

695
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 4: an ant eater, is it the same yellow or not?

696
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: You know, that's actually a really fun question because all

697
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: the University of California campuses are blue and gold, but

698
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: they all have different shades of gold.

699
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 4: Now, which one is more relatable? To exclude people who

700
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 4: don't live in California, or to exclude people who've never

701
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: heard of Stanford and had Harbor.

702
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, let's hear from the listeners.

703
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're going to be like you excluded everyone.

704
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: Anyway, It's fascinating because the biological transformation of these photons

705
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: into optic signals puts us sort of like a distance

706
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: from the actual photon. Like, what you're experiencing in your

707
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: mind is reaction to the optic nerve signals, not the

708
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: photon directly.

709
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 4: Well, it lands in your cone, and then the cone

710
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 4: generates the signal that then gets transmitted to your brain.

711
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly what you mean. But you could simulate that

712
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: signal without the photon, right, you create that same signal

713
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: and the optic nerve somehow without the photon, sort of

714
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: the matrix style. You can experience that color without a photon,

715
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: of that energy actually arriving on your optic nerve, and

716
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 1: it tells you that. Like we say, photons have color,

717
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: we call them red photons or blue photons, but that's

718
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: not really accurate. The photons themselves don't have a color.

719
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: The color is in your mind. The photons have an

720
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: energy to have a frequency, to have a wavelength. The

721
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: color is just like your experience of the photon.

722
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it's our brains trying to figure out

723
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 4: what that frequency is. It just that we came up

724
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,479
Speaker 4: with a name for things like, oh, that thirty point

725
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 4: seven hurts a frequency light, we will call that yellow.

726
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 4: Why not because we don't have decimal put decimal numbers

727
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 4: back in the day.

728
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: It's our brain trying to give us what it thinks

729
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: is a useful experience, or what evolution has proven to

730
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: be a useful experience, the way that like touching something

731
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: hot gives you a painful experience, turns out to be useful.

732
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: Having these different experiences in your mind for these different

733
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: bands of frequencies turns out to be useful. But what's

734
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,439
Speaker 1: fascinating is the sort of philosophical question of like, where

735
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 1: do these experiences themselves come from? And are they the same?

736
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: You know, you put two people in black and white

737
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: rooms and raise them without color and describe colors to them.

738
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: Could they come out of that room and identify red

739
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: versus blue versus green? Or is it purely captured in

740
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: the innate experience and can never be described in any

741
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: other terms. There are fascinating philosophical questions.

742
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: I think has been proven our brains have evolved to

743
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 4: react to certain colors in certain ways, right, Like green

744
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 4: usually has a calming effect, Red has a certain sort

745
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 4: of anxiety raising effect, right, is that kind of what

746
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 4: you mean, like our brains are cute to react to

747
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 4: certain colors or what.

748
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with those studies, though imagine it's probably

749
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: is true that there are emotional responses to various colors.

750
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: But I mean, like the actual experience of the color,

751
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: like the red that you feel in your mind, is

752
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: just an experience in your mind the way pain is, right,

753
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: Pain is like a reaction to heat, to damage to temperature.

754
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: Red is a reaction to certain frequencies of light hitting you.

755
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: But the light itself is not red the way they

756
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: like the heat from the burner is not actually literally painful.

757
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: The pain is part of your experience of it.

758
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I guess. But I feel like maybe we're

759
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 4: sort of maybe confusing things by trying to get to philosophical.

760
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 4: It's basically just your brain trying to detect what's happening

761
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 4: in the world, right.

762
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's your brain's interpretation of these signals, And you're right,

763
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: Getting philosophical does always confuse things because you end up

764
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: with questions you can't answer and you don't know if

765
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: they actually teach you anything.

766
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 4: So then let's get back to this topic of it,

767
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 4: maybe that there's a color that's impossible for us to

768
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 4: see or to make. We're both.

769
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, a few decades ago a theory developed about how

770
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: we experience color. It's actually slightly more complicated and actually

771
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: slightly simpler than what we just described. Instead of imagining

772
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 1: that you get like three signals red, green, and blue

773
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: actually the way.

774
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 4: But I guess maybe just from a very basic level,

775
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 4: of course, our colors we can see, like we can't

776
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 4: see light up up on the infrared, and we can't

777
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 4: see light down or up in the ultraviolet. Right, Like,

778
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 4: there's a whole range of light frigans, these infinite range

779
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 4: of light frequencies that we there our eyes just don't detect,

780
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 4: like they just go through our eyes or they hit

781
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 4: our eyes and don't activate it, right.

782
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, there are lots of frequencies of light that

783
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: don't generate in a signal. I don't know if those

784
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: frequencies of light have a color though, right, color is

785
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: just our experience, and so you just don't assign a

786
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: color to those frequencies. So there are frequencies we cannot see.

787
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if those frequencies have color.

788
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 4: What would you call a color. Is it like if

789
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 4: we have like a visual spectrum, right, Like, there's a

790
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 4: range of frequencies that our eyes can detect, and so

791
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 4: let's call color the light that is within that range,

792
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 4: the frequency of the light within that range.

793
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say color is our response to frequencies

794
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: of light within that range.

795
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 4: Okay, I mean that sounds like an arbitrary definition. I

796
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 4: could also just posit colors the frequency of the light

797
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 4: that we can see.

798
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: So that all works really well if you think about

799
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: individual frequencies of light, it all makes sense. But you know,

800
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: we never see individual frequencies. You we see a mixture.

801
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: You see a little bit of this frequency, a little

802
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: bit of that frequency. And once we start thinking about

803
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: mixtures of frequencies, things get more complicated. And actually a

804
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: different theory of how we experience color emerged a few

805
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: decades ago. It's called opposing neuron theory. It says, instead

806
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: of having like a three dimensional space RGB red, green,

807
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: and blue, one for each of these different kinds of cones,

808
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: actually we only really have two because we have opposing neurons.

809
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: That we have neurons that fire more when light is

810
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: red and less when it's green. And we have another one,

811
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: a blue versus yellow one that fires more when things

812
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: are yellow and less when things are blue. So instead

813
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: of having like three dimensional information, our nerves have figured

814
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: out a way to incorporate this in just two dimensions,

815
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: like a green versus red axis and a blue versus

816
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: yellow axis. It's still pulled out of the same cones,

817
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: but it's a little bit of processing there to convert

818
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: it into this red versus green and blue versus yellow.

819
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 4: I think you're talking about what happens after it hits

820
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 4: your optic nerve and maybe after it goes up into

821
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 4: your like visual cortex, right, you're talking about like, you know,

822
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 4: maybe your brain or evolution said, you know, maybe we

823
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 4: don't need three signals to figure out what color thing

824
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 4: the banana is or whether that's a spotted leopard or not. Like,

825
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 4: maybe we can just instead of having three variables, maybe

826
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 4: we can just do with two variables, and maybe that's

827
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 4: more efficient and faster and just enough to survive.

828
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I'm not exactly sure where this happens, and

829
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 1: you know where the brain technically ends and the optic

830
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: nerve begins. But yeah, this is part of the process

831
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: thing that happens in your brain. This is opposing neuron theory,

832
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: and that means something really interesting because it means there's

833
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: a little bit of a loss of information, and it

834
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: means that there are some colors which now cannot be

835
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: described in this two dimensional plane. For example, a mixture

836
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,959
Speaker 1: of green and red. You have this one opposing neuron

837
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: which is supposed to fire more if it's red and

838
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: less if it's green. What does it do if you

839
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: send it red and green? Right? Does it fire more

840
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: for the red and fire less for the green. It's

841
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: an ore system. It can tell you whether this light

842
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: is red or it's green. There's no response that that

843
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: neuron can make that says I see red and green.

844
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 4: Wouldn't it fire like somewhere in between? Like neurons and

845
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 4: code things by the frequency of which they, you know,

846
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 4: send signals right, like little like Morse codes. So if

847
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 4: it's like doing red and for green, wouldn't like a

848
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 4: mixture give you something in between?

849
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: You can see a color that's between red and green,

850
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: but you can't see like intense red and green simultaneously.

851
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 4: Oh, you're talking about the intensity of things, not like

852
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 4: which frequencies are present.

853
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: It's also true if this is fairly dim. But what

854
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: you can see is a color between red and green. Right,

855
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: If you see like something on the spectrum that's between

856
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: red and green, it's like a yellow, then you can

857
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: see that, and the response of the neuron will be

858
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: between its response for red and for green. If you

859
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: shine pure green and pure red on it, it's supposed to

860
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: both trigger it and inhibit it, and it doesn't know

861
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: how to communicate that there's no place on its response

862
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: that means green and red.

863
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 4: Now, as you said, this is a theory, is like,

864
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 4: are there experiments back it up? Or like do we

865
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 4: know where in the brain this this happening?

866
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: We don't know where in the brain this is happening.

867
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: And there's a controversial set of experiments. People were like,

868
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: is it possible to see these things? What happens if

869
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: you put like strips of color near each other and

870
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: ask people to like focus on the line between them.

871
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: So they have these experiments that they'd originally in the

872
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: eighties where they put like strips of blue and strips

873
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: of yellow next to each other, or strips of red

874
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: and strips of green next to each other, and ask like,

875
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: what do you experience? Right, at the edge, you know,

876
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: where you're seeing like red and green at the same time.

877
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: So there's this paper in eighties by these two guys,

878
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: Crane and the Piantanita, and they claim to see these

879
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: impossible colors. They ask people to describe what color they

880
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: were seeing at the boundary and it was like indescribable.

881
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: And so this paper was really controversial for a long time.

882
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: And then there were experiments two decades later at Dart

883
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: in the mid two thousands that sort of disputed these

884
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: results and said, like maybe people are just seeing sort

885
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: of like an intermediate color. They're not simultaneously experiencing what

886
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: happens when you have red and green photons. It's just

887
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: sort of like hard to describe. So this controversy in

888
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: the literature about whether this theory is right. There are

889
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: other theories of how we experience color and whether it's

890
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 1: possible to see these colors in some way.

891
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 4: So what do you mean by impossible colors? You're talking

892
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 4: about like combinations of color that we can experience.

893
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly that maybe.

894
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 4: Our optic nerves are picking up because they're definitely picking

895
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 4: up something, but we just because of the way that

896
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 4: our brains have maybe streamlined and gotten rid of certain

897
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 4: information that doesn't think it needs. Now we have kind

898
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 4: of blind spots in the color spectrum.

899
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And I read a really fascinating paper that

900
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: suggested you might be able to experience this if you

901
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: can come up with a way to like differently trigger

902
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,959
Speaker 1: different parts of your optic nerve. Like if you could

903
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: we get some of these opposing neurons to respond to

904
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: the green light and some of them to respond to

905
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: the red light, then instead of all sending the same signal,

906
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: you'd have some sending the green signal and some sending

907
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: the red signal, both intensely, and then maybe your brain

908
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 1: would know how to interpret that, and we'd give you

909
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 1: this experience of this red green combination. That's one theory,

910
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: And people argue, like, maybe that's what was happening in

911
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: the eighty three experiments, that they somehow like parts of it.

912
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 1: We're triggering this part of your nerve and other parts

913
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: are experiencing other parts.

914
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 8: Of the nerve.

915
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's about these mixtures of colors that we

916
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: can't see. We can see all the pure colors, but

917
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 1: these mixtures of colors we can't see.

918
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 4: Well, I guess you would see them, you just wouldn't

919
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 4: be able to maybe tell them apart from some of

920
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 4: the primary colors.

921
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: Perhaps this is novel color, which is a mixture of

922
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: these two which we do not have an experience of

923
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: because we think that the sensory mechanisms and the optical

924
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: nerve processing can't carry the information to describe it. The

925
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: loss of information means there's no way to encode it,

926
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: basically those signals.

927
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 4: Now, do these impossible colors have a specific frequency or

928
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 4: would you call it a different color because it's a

929
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 4: mix of different frequencies.

930
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's see, that's fascinating because we think about color

931
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: as associated with the frequency spectrum, right, and so pure

932
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: frequencies we think of as pure colors, and that makes sense.

933
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: But here we're talking about combinations of different frequencies, like

934
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: shooting red and green photons or blue and yellow photons

935
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: at you at the same time. And so that's why

936
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 1: I think it's helpful to separate the question of frequency

937
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: and color, because color is what you experience in your mind,

938
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: and it's not always connected to just one frequency like

939
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: this red green color, whatever it is that would be

940
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: an experience in your mind. Your brain's interpretation of seeing

941
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: both red frequency photons and green frequency photons at the

942
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: same time. You wouldn't experience red, or you wouldn't experience green,

943
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: you'd experience some red green thing we don't have a

944
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: word for.

945
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 4: I guess it kind of goes back to the question

946
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 4: of like what is yellow? Like, if we have sensors

947
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 4: that the tech red, blue, and green, what is yellow?

948
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you just think about the spectrum, right, yellow

949
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: is the color that triggers the green and the red

950
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: about the same amount and doesn't trigger the blue.

951
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 4: Like, there's a specific frequency that will do that, right,

952
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 4: I imagine, mm hmm. And now you could call that

953
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 4: frequency yellow. But you can also kind of fool the

954
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 4: eye into thinking of yellow by mixing frequencies. That's kind

955
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 4: of what your TV and your phone screen do.

956
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is a specific frequency range that we know

957
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: triggers the experience of yellow in your minds five hundred

958
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: and seventy to five and eighty and animeters. Absolutely, And

959
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: you know the same way that there's like a cyan

960
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: and there's a purple. You don't have a special cone

961
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: for these things. There are brain creating an experience for

962
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: this whole range of possible signals that it's getting.

963
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 4: Right, and you can sort of fool it into thinking

964
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 4: of yellow by mixing frequencies, right, I mean, like in

965
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 4: your TV or your phone screen, there's only like three

966
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 4: kinds of LEDs in it, right, There's red, green, yellow, ones.

967
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 4: And so when you look at something yell on your phone,

968
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 4: it's not actually shooting yellow light. You're shooting some combination

969
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 4: of red, blue, and green that's making your brain think

970
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 4: it's yellow. But there's also a frequency that wouldn't trigger

971
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 4: that same Oh that's yellow. Anyways. The point is that

972
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 4: there are combinations of frequencies that maybe our brains are

973
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 4: not designed to like trigger your consciousness of them.

974
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. There should be a unique experience for those combinations,

975
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: but the brain has nobody interpret it because it doesn't

976
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 1: get a unique signal for those combinations. So Raven like

977
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: developed a unique experience.

978
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 4: It's like you're blind to those colors kind of mmmm, yeah,

979
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 4: like it just looks red to you. You're like Stanford, Harvard,

980
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 4: the Irvine. I don't know, mm, it could be any athlete.

981
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: There's two other sort of ways to think about impossible

982
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: colors as well. There are colors that can't be generated

983
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: by any physical source. And then there's these things they

984
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: called chimerical colors.

985
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 4: Interesting, all right, let's get into those possible to make

986
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 4: colors and dig into what that means. But first, let's

987
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 4: take another quick break.

988
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,480
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989
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,719
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990
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

991
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

992
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

993
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,399
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994
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,760
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995
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,040
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996
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,680
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997
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,120
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998
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,920
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999
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,960
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1000
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,360
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1001
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,640
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1002
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,560
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1003
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1009
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Speaker 4: Are we getting very colorful today? Looking at all of

1038
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 4: the rainbow of ideas around the concept of color and

1039
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 4: how we perceive it and what is a color anyway?

1040
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 4: And what color is your been in it? As well?

1041
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: Hey, that's a personal question, man.

1042
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 4: Whoa well, you just got really really purple there. I

1043
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 4: wasn't even thinking about that. I see what's on your mind.

1044
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 1: Daniel m lunch.

1045
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 4: Oh that's even racier.

1046
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: Let's steer back to physics.

1047
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 4: But we talked about how maybe there are combinations the

1048
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 4: frequencies of light that we can't see, because really color

1049
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 4: is our experience of how light hits her eye and

1050
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 4: sometimes sets of specific frequency. Maybe that's sometimes that's a

1051
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 4: combination or the absence of certain frequencies. So color is

1052
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 4: a complicated thing. But there are maybe combinations of frequencies

1053
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 4: that we our brains are just not equipped to deteg

1054
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 4: unless maybe you're maybe trained to see them, or maybe

1055
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 4: you're one of these people born with extra sensors.

1056
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it could be. And in the end, we

1057
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: don't know what other people experience. We can just ask

1058
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: them to compare previous experience to current experience or to

1059
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: some references, but we can't cross correlate across brains. We

1060
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: don't know how to extract from inside the brain the

1061
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: actual encoding of these things and interpret it in any

1062
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: sort of objective way map from one brain to another.

1063
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: In the end, it's frustrating, but we can't try to

1064
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: reverse engineer the system and think about ways to experience

1065
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,399
Speaker 1: like weird colors or things that we can't experience. That's

1066
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. And the system, the way it works,

1067
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: because it has these overlapping responses, also creates these things

1068
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 1: called imaginary colors, colors not that we can't experience, but

1069
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 1: that no physical source could generate.

1070
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think that's a question that I had

1071
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 4: from the beginning. Are there colors that are impossible to make?

1072
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 4: But I guess to be clear, all colors are possible

1073
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,919
Speaker 4: in the universe, right, Like you can always stretch light

1074
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 4: to be a certain color infinitely with infinite precision in

1075
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 4: the universe.

1076
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, all frequencies of light can exist out there

1077
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: in the universe. But remember color is our experience in

1078
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,839
Speaker 1: the mind, and it's this interpretation of these red, green,

1079
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: and blue cones and then perhaps through these opposing neurons.

1080
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: But because those things overlap, there's a question of like

1081
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: what would happen if you only triggered the green neuron.

1082
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: Right now, the green neuron and the red neuron are

1083
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 1: almost overlapping, they're almost identical, like there's a very small

1084
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: shift between them. So any physical photon that hits your eyeball,

1085
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: that triggers the green is very likely going to trigger

1086
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: also some red ones. So you shoot like pure green

1087
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: light at somebody's eyeball, some of those red cones are

1088
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: also going to get triggered.

1089
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 4: Right because I think what we said before is that

1090
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 4: our cones are not perfect, right, Like, they don't just

1091
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 4: respond to one frequency. They respond to a range of frequencies,

1092
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 4: and in our eyes, those ranges kind of overlap, So

1093
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 4: there's some frequencies that will activate both.

1094
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: Yes, and the red and the green in particular are

1095
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: very close to each other. They respond almost the same

1096
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: way to different frequencies, and so like if you shoot

1097
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: something right in the middle of the green, then the

1098
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: green cone is always going to respond, and the red

1099
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 1: cone is going to respond like ninety percent of the time.

1100
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: The blue is like further shifted down. But it makes

1101
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: you wonder, like what would happen if you could somehow

1102
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: just tweak the cones. Don't worry about the light you're

1103
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 1: shooting at it, just somehow get only the green cone

1104
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: to respond without the red cone responding.

1105
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 4: Like what would happen? In your brain?

1106
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: Yes, they call this hyper green, like the greeniest green

1107
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: that you could experience without any pollution from the red.

1108
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 1: In reality, it's essentially impossible to generate this using photons

1109
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 1: because all these photons will also stimulate that red cone.

1110
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 4: Oh you're talking about like it's an impossible experience of

1111
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 4: that color.

1112
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 1: We don't know that it's impossible. Like technically, if I

1113
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: attached little electrodes to all the nerves behind the green

1114
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: cones and stimulated them, then you would have this experience.

1115
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: But I can't create a photon that would do the

1116
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: same thing.

1117
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 4: You mean, like you can't create a photon that will

1118
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 4: ignore the red cones, yeah, and only hit the green

1119
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 4: cone exactly well as you can somehow aim them really well.

1120
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, super precise lasers in the back of your

1121
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: eye to only hit those green cones. So it's possible, then, well,

1122
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: we think it's possible for it to happen. It's just

1123
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 1: that there isn't a physical source we could make that

1124
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 1: can do that yet. But that's the experience of hyper green.

1125
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 4: Right right, And it's probably the color of like mountain

1126
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 4: dew or like if you took a green highlighter and

1127
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 4: like paint this ear the back of your eyeball.

1128
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, so those are imaginary colors. Then there's another really

1129
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: fun kind of color that you actually can experience.

1130
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 4: But I mean it's not just green, right, and it's

1131
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 4: like all of them right, Like, it's probably possible to

1132
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 4: create a hyper blue or a hyper red.

1133
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,439
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. It's trickier with green and red because those

1134
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: two response curves are basically on top of each other,

1135
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: so it's harder to separate. Blue is further away, so

1136
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: it's possible to experience a purer blue than it is

1137
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: red or green. But in principle, yes, these same things

1138
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: are true. Even blue photons will state a fraction of

1139
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: the green and red cones.

1140
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 4: All right, So that's one kind of impossible color. You said,

1141
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 4: there's another kind.

1142
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: There's another category. These are called chimerical colors. These are

1143
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: colors you experience if you change the way that your

1144
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: cones respond. Remember, these are little biological machines, and they

1145
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: can sort of get tired. You know that if you

1146
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: look at a really bright light and then look away,

1147
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: for example, you still see it, right, that's because your

1148
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: cones are tired and they're responding differently. Now there's something

1149
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: like residual effect there. So for example, if you stare

1150
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: at like really bright yellow light, it sort tires out

1151
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: these opposing neurons. Then if you close your eye or

1152
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,240
Speaker 1: you look at something really really black, then you see

1153
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: this blue response. There's no blue there. You're seeing a

1154
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: reaction to tiring out your blue yellow neurons. And so

1155
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 1: what you see is this super dark blue, this blue

1156
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 1: that you otherwise could not experience because to experience it,

1157
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: you'd need to receive a bunch of blue photons and

1158
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: that would make it bright. So you see this like

1159
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 1: impossibly dark blue.

1160
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 4: WHOA, But couldn't you just sit in a dark room

1161
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 4: and shoot blue photons at my eyeball?

1162
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 1: You could do that, but then receiving those photons would

1163
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: create an experience of a brighter blue, and if you

1164
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: dial it down eventually you just wouldn't see anything. You

1165
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: just see black. So this is like a blue you

1166
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: can experience without receiving any photons.

1167
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,959
Speaker 4: Right, because you're basically doing the same thing as these

1168
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 4: imaginary colors. Right, you're sort of like knocking out your

1169
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 4: perception of certain rots and cones, right exactly.

1170
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: And this is actually pretty easy to do. You just

1171
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: go to like Wikipedia and google chimerical colors. They have

1172
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: these templates, and you like staring yellow dot and then

1173
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: look at a black field and you can see this

1174
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: blue which is different from just like a really really

1175
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: dark blue. It's fascinating. It's called sticky and blue.

1176
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 4: Whoa, it's wild to think that, Like, if I'm just

1177
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 4: staring at something yellow, like my brain and my eyeballs

1178
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 4: and brains are constantly going yellow yellow, yellow, yell ye yellow,

1179
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 4: and eventually just like I give up, forget it.

1180
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, then they're tired, and then the blue wind's out right,

1181
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: and then they're sort of like leaning over their biased

1182
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: against it. They're like exhausted the yell. They're like, don't

1183
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: show me any more yellow. We're leaning blue for a while,

1184
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: and they're basically sending you blue information even though there's

1185
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: nothing there. And so because there's no brightness to it,

1186
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: but you're getting blue, your brain is like, well, I

1187
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: got to give you something blue, but there's no brightness there,

1188
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: So what do we do. Let's make the darkest blue

1189
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: we can. So it's a very deep blue.

1190
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 4: Does that mean that if I stare at a banana

1191
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 4: long enough, it'll eventually look blue?

1192
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: I think it means if you stare banana long enough

1193
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: and close your eyes, you'll see an impossibly blue banana.

1194
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 4: I guess you won't see it because you won't be

1195
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 4: like experiencing photons from the banana. It'll be like sort

1196
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 4: of this lingering memory in your visual cortex of a

1197
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 4: blue banana.

1198
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll be experiencing a deep blue banana even though

1199
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: you're not getting blue photons from the banana.

1200
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 4: From the banana, yeah, yeah, I guess it's all because

1201
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 4: we have this kind of flawed by logic machinery that's

1202
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 4: trying to interpret with the frequencies that we see in

1203
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 4: the world, but maybe through evolution, it's done it in

1204
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 4: a weird way where you have these weird effects right

1205
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 4: where we can see certain combinations or you know, we

1206
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 4: see residual colors.

1207
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, all of these colors in the end are brain's

1208
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: interpretation of these signals, signals that are typically generated by

1209
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: this experience or that experience facts. For the corners of

1210
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: this and the limitations of it, we can try to

1211
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: get some understanding of what it means to see color,

1212
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: what it tells us about what's happening out there in

1213
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: the universe.

1214
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 4: Because I guess, you know, as physicists or as scientists

1215
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 4: we can think about all the different frequencies of light.

1216
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 4: But maybe if you're like a simple creature, you don't

1217
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 4: need to know all that information, Like you don't need

1218
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 4: to know whether something's ten point seven herds. You just

1219
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 4: need to know, like, is this thing going to eat

1220
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 4: me or not? That's in front of me? Is it red?

1221
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 4: Is it the red kind that's going to eat me?

1222
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 4: Or is it the blue kind that's going to not

1223
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 4: eat me?

1224
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly. And that's why some bees can see into

1225
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: the ultra violet because they have to despot the right

1226
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: kind of flower. For example. That's probably why mantis have

1227
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 1: super impressive hardware for ultra fast processing of this color

1228
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 1: and then like mostly waste that information because they don't

1229
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 1: really need to know specifically, they just needed fast processing.

1230
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 4: Now, if a manta shrimp looked at a banana, would

1231
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 4: it think it's a banana?

1232
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: That's another philosophy paper I want to.

1233
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 4: Write over to think, Oh, that's a nice digim blue banana.

1234
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,439
Speaker 1: What is it like to be a manta strip eating

1235
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: a banana?

1236
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 4: Nobody knows that's the right feel. I'm pretty sure nobody

1237
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 4: has published that paper.

1238
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to get on it, all right.

1239
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 4: Well, the interesting discussion here about what color is and

1240
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 4: what we can perceive when you know it has a

1241
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 4: physical basis, but our brains the way it's evolved. Don't

1242
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 4: experience maybe the world the way physics has built it.

1243
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 1: And it's important to remember that our experience in the

1244
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: universe is always one step divorced from the reality of

1245
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: the universe, which is, in the end, our interpretation of

1246
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: a model we are building in our brain. Are a

1247
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: direct experience is what we actually can count on. Everything

1248
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: else is our interpretation.

1249
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, and if that makes you red with anger or

1250
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 4: blue with sadness, just close your eyes, don't yellow at us. Yeah,

1251
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 4: imagine a more beautiful universe of colors. All right, Well,

1252
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 4: we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See

1253
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 4: you next time.

1254
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social

1255
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discorg, Instant,

1256
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

1257
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

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