WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 27: Tom’s 2020 American Road Trip 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:06.400 Welcome back to another edition of the Fridagg Podcast. Today's 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.399 podcast is brought to you by our friends over at 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.959 b dratty. We often find ourselves reminiscing about the glory 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.840 days of Ben Hogan and Nara Palmer. I know I 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:20.079 do reminisce about more than that. From back then, their 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:24.640 style was unmatched with those alpaca wool cardigans. Well, b 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:29.240 dratty is bringing alpaca sweaters back to the game. Alpaca 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:33.400 wool is a true natural performance fiber. It's a big 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:38.000 misconception with wool that evolved in multiple climates from the 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:42.840 coast to the mountains. 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You can get 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:01.800 yourself a alpaca wool sweater there and received twenty five 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:06.640 percent off with our exclusive discount code TFE twenty five. 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.200 I think this is on like all the time, So 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:13.240 if you need stuff, go to bdradty dot com use 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.160 TFE twenty five and you'll get twenty five percent off. 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.360 Now back to another edition of The Yoke with Doak. 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:25.760 This is the second episode chronicling Tom's recent road trip 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:30.199 across America all over the place. He went basically from 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.720 Michigan due west, so I guess he wasn't up in 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.759 the northeast. But a couple things we talk about. Of note, 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:40.919 we talk about his new project upcoming at Dornic Hills, 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:46.240 Perry Maxwell's home course, and then as well as the 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:52.240 news of his potential renovation of Sandpiper, a well known 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.560 seaside public golf course in Santa Barbara. So those are 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.760 two big projects that we talk about, and then we 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.240 go to a slew of listener questions. So this this 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.440 was a really good conversation. We're gonna have more. Tom 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.520 has his audio equipment, we got it working this hour, 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.960 So enjoy this podcast. I hope everybody has a happy holidays, 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.160 and thanks as always for listening in the support. In 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:21.360 twenty twenty, I missed the green for example, I'm already upset. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.760 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:25.800 And when I find my ball in a brid Egg 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.680 Friday Egg, the Dread and Frida, egg, Frida, egg, Frida 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:30.720 egg egg, fridagg bride egg Lie. 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:32.960 I'm about ready to run off of the home course. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:46.080 We're back, all right. So yeah, obviously huge news is 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:52.320 uh Dorny Hills Perry Maxwell's home course Ardboor, Oklahoma. You've 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.760 been hired to restore Dori Hills. Tell us a little 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.440 bit about that project. 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.639 Well, I'm not sure it's huge news, but it's fun. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.919 We're, you know, for a very Maxwell fanatic. 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:11.400 Okay, okay. So so I keep saying, I keep saying 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.160 I'm not going to sign up any more consulting clients, 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.160 you know, And I'm just passing all that on to 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.320 my associates and to all these young guys that have 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.800 worked for us, because you know, they need the work 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:26.600 and I really don't. And and for the most part, 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:29.680 I do that when you know, when somebody calls about 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.840 something new, I I just push it off. So I 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.440 had two calls to Spring for new stuff, new consulting 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:41.560 stuff that I that I couldn't say no to. One 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:45.400 was Cricket Stick. You know, it's just Pete Dies for 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.920 a real big project. And you know, I spent a 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.400 couple of days with Peter cricket stick over at the 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:54.720 course of working for him over the years, and they, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:04:00.160 you know, once he had passed, they you know, I 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.160 I knew several members and they reached out, you know, 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.960 they were interviewing architects and would I want to interview 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.880 for it. While you know normally I'm say a no 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.640 to that kind of stuff, it was like, yeah, that 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.360 one's special. I should go talk to them. And you 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.920 know that is like, I'm not sure there's a lot 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.040 to do there. You know, I've sort of given them 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:23.760 a preliminary report, but I'm not sure. You know, eventually, 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:25.760 I think they're going to have to rebuild their greens 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.320 because of what's underneath them. But short of that, you know, 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.320 we're not looking to do a lot of work there. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.599 But you know, it's a special place because it was 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:36.839 one of mister Dye's first projects and he was so 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:41.039 personally involved. And the same goes for Dorna Hills. I mean, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.320 you know, I had said in an interview somewhere years ago, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.560 you know, I'd do that for free, help them restore 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.440 the golf course. And you know I said that partly 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:52.279 because I knew the club didn't have a lot of money. 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.640 And you know, I figured that would at least make 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.400 them think about it. And you know, it didn't go 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.200 anywhere for a while. But but this past year they 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:02.960 were getting ready to they're going to put in a 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.800 new irrigation system, and one of the members said, hey, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.320 you know, we should talk to this guy who said 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.720 he might consider doing other stuff for free. Why don't 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:13.520 we Why don't we give him a call? So they 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.760 called me the spring and and said said, we, you know, 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:19.880 we'd like to talk to you about that and the club. 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.480 The club doesn't really have the money to do it, 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.200 but but there might be a couple other ways to 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.120 get some funding for it, So we'd like to at 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.119 least talk to you about how much it would cost, 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.000 and you know what we would have to raise in 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:32.800 order to do it. 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:37.839 So it just to be clear, would you say I'd 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.599 do it for free? You know, I think that it's 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:42.920 like it's still costs a lot of money, but you're 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:44.480 you're waving your design fee. 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.279 Yes, I'm not going to build it for them for free. 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:51.599 You know that would be very generous and cost me 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:58.000 half my networth, But you know I did, Yes, I've 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.480 offered to put my own time into it for free 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.719 and and so they you know, so I went there 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:08.840 in June my first my first trip post COVID. That 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.800 was one of my first stops. Those were actually my 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.560 first two Crooked Stick and then to Dorna Hills. And 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.159 probably some of your listeners know the background, but most don't. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.800 Dornic Hills isn't just Perry Maxwell's first golf course. He 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:27.440 and his wife bought that farm to build a golf course, 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.320 you know, before he started thinking he was going to 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.080 be a golf course architect as a career. They he 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.200 just built that for his town that he lived in Oklahoma, 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.800 to have a good golf course, and because his wife 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.719 thought it would help him. You know, he had he 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.640 had respiratory problems. That's one of the reasons they moved 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.279 to Oklahoma, and she thought that golf would be better 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.240 for his health long term than tennis, which he had played. 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:59.000 And when she, you know, when she recommended that they 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.600 like get involved building a golf course, he handed him 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.000 an article about the National Golf Links of America and 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.880 some some national magazine and you know, so Maxwell went 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:14.600 and spend time with C. B. McDonald on Long Island 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.600 to like learn about it. You know, he was Maxwell 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.000 came into this as you know, he was the local 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:25.640 banker in Ardmore, Oklahoma, so you know he wasn't you know, 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.320 he had the kind of background that McDonald would pay 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.320 him some attention. And you know, they spent a little 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:36.920 time together and in uh Long Island. And then a 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.640 year or two later, Maxwell went overseas at McDonald's suggestion, 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.000 and that's how he met Alistair McKenzie for the first 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.200 time when he was visiting Saint Andrews. McKenzie was there 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.840 working on his map of the old course for the RNA, 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.560 and you know, and then when and then when mackenzie 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:59.200 came to the States three years after that to head 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.440 to California and meet Robert Hunter, he stopped in Oklahoma 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.240 on the way, and you know, made an agreement with 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:11.080 Perry Maxwell to be one of his partners in America 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.320 and and you know, consult on a couple of jobs 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.520 that Maxwell already had going. Oklahoma City Country Club was 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:26.680 one of those. But Dornet Kills pre dates his involvement 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.600 with mackenzie. You know, he the first version of it 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:33.000 only had four holes, and then he expanded it gradually 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.480 to nine and then to eighteen holes in the early 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:40.240 nineteen twenties, and you know, it was a very personal 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:45.559 thing for him and a very complicated piece of ground, 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.280 you know, very interesting piece of ground, not like your 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.720 normal you know, it's got a creek going through it 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:57.920 that that floods occasionally. It's got a couple of major 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:03.559 rockout croppings, including a a sharp little cliff that runs 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.599 along the back nine is in play on one of 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.160 the most famous holes, certainly the most famous hole on 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.719 the golf course and one of the one of the 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:16.520 most unusual holes that I've ever seen, the sixteenth which 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:21.640 they call the cliff hole. But you know, in the 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:26.920 in the late nineteen eighties or early nineteen nineties, I 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.680 keep getting the date wrong, but somewhere in there, thirty 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.640 some years ago, the club had fallen on hard times. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.760 You know, they were having trouble attracting members. They decided 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.880 that one reason for that was people didn't like putting 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:45.000 off greens, that some of Maxwell's greens were just too severe. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:52.680 Sounds like crystal downs, yeah, but crystal downs. 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.920 In terms of putting off greens. 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:55.839 Yeah, I mean, you know, Maxwell built a lot of 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:57.800 greens that you could put off of and if prairie 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.360 dunes and crystal downs. That's a no K thing. But 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.760 you know, the members of Dornick Hill said, just you know, 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.319 there weren't too many people around connected with the golf 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.679 course from way back at that point, and you know, 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.320 they had a consultant telling them, you really need to 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.520 rebuild this and make it more fair for people. So 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.480 they went in and changed. You know, they rebuilt all 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.600 the greens nine holes one year and then nine holes 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.480 a few years after, which is really strange because one 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:28.640 nine doesn't even look like the other in terms of 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.199 the greens construction, and neither of them looked like Perry 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.560 Maxwell's greens at all. And you know, so that's what 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.280 they need to fix. And you know that's that's more 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.760 complicated than redoing a bunch of bunkers. They you know, 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.839 for two reasons. One, you have to close the golf 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.280 course and rebuild the greens, and that costs a chunk 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.800 of money. And two, they didn't really do a good 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:58.240 job of recording what Maxwell's greens were before they dug 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.559 them up. So you know, we can talk about how 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:03.600 we want to restore them exactly the way they were, 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.040 but I don't have a map of exactly the way 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:10.880 they were other than Jeff Brower, who did the work 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.359 on the back Nine as one of his early projects, 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.760 sent me his plans for the golf course in the 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.920 in the the you know, the the base map underneath 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.880 is probably pretty close to the old greens in terms 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.280 of how much fall there was on him. It may 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.480 not be perfectly accurate, but it's the closest thing we've got, 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:33.720 and it gives us it, you know, at least gives 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.160 us a good idea of you know, the elevation of 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.640 the green and how it tied in with everything around it, 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:41.800 which would be really hard to do. You know, we've 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:43.840 got good aerial photos of it, but looking at a 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.000 black and white aerial photo doesn't tell you much about 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:48.920 the contour of the greens. 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.000 So what do you do when in that situation? What 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.880 is it? Are you looking at it? Unless you find 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.240 something that would tell you more. How do you go 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:07.000 about you know, restoring a green? Is it looking at 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.760 other Maxwell greens and trying to create a you know, 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:16.000 this is something that he might have done, right. 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.160 So that's the thing. I mean, I've always struggled with 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:23.040 these kinds of projects because you know, there's there's tons 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.280 of architects, young architects going around the country saying they're 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.360 Donald Ross expert or a Thomas expert or a Maxwell 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.200 expert or whatever, and that they could just you know, 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.800 they know what that guy did, so they can build 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.160 a set of Maxwell greens from scratch, even though the 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:44.200 plans are long gone. And I'm just super skeptical of that. 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.600 I mean, you know, because fifty years from now, some 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.440 guy will say that about my golf courses. Oh yeah, 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.960 I know how Tom built greens. I could go build 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.440 a set of greens just like he would. And I 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.960 try to do something different from one product to the next. 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:05.679 And sometimes the idea for the green is Brian Schneider's 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:11.040 or Eric's or somebody else's, and you know, we do 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:15.320 everything kind of in the moment, on the inspiration that 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.000 we've got for that particular day. It's not on the planet. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.400 And I think that a lot of the old time 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.520 architects worked exactly the same way, you know, and they 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.040 you know, they may have been there a lot, or 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.080 they may have relied on other people to build that 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.840 for them. I mean, Mackenzie certainly relied on Perry Maxwell 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.600 to do that for him. At a place like Crystal 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.760 Dad's where Mackenzie was only there three days during construction 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:44.080 and Maxwell was there for two six month stints. You know, 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.360 there's no question that Maxwell had more to do with 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:51.360 building those greens than Mackenzie did. But so I don't 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:56.360 have a plan for Dornic Kills. And you know, if 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.439 the greens were somewhere close to what they were originally, 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.920 I would say they will leave well enough alone. You know, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.120 since they're totally changed and they don't look like Maxwell's 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:11.760 at all. I'll use the best information I can find 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.480 and I'll use you know, one of the people that 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:22.080 donating money to this thing. When Maxwell built all his 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.280 golf courses, he hired his two brothers in law to 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.160 be his construction team. One of them, Dean Woods, was 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.200 an engineer before he got into golf construction. So the 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.640 Woods brothers were the ones who went around and you know, 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.320 they were at Crystal Downs all summer too, and they 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.640 they're the ones who went to Pine Valley and rebuilt 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:43.920 greens at Pine Valley and Marion in some of these 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:48.760 other places. And one of the main donors to this 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:53.240 project is Dean Woods's grandson, you know who grew up 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.360 playing there, remembers the golf course from the fifties and 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.720 sixties before it was changed. Now, anytime we're dealing with 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.520 older guys and their memories, it's a little faulty, you know. 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.000 I mean I've used I've done that on a lot 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.720 of projects, where you'll talk to the old members and 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.160 they'll be telling you dead on what you think one 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.200 of the greens would look like, and then they'll start 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.240 telling you about another hole and I'm sitting there looking 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:17.920 at a picture of it. It's like, it wasn't that 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:22.080 way at all. So so you have to take all 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.160 of that with a grain of salt. But in this case, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.920 that's some of the best information I have to go on. 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.080 And you know, sometimes you jog those guys' memories by 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.480 just asking them questions about how it played, Like, you know, 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.080 where could you not miss the green? You know? At 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:40.360 raw Melbourne. The old club champion and his story and 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.040 told me on the East course there was a green 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:44.760 he used to try to make sure to miss it 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:49.320 over the back instead of in front. And I was like, okay, 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.640 so that part of the green must have must have 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.120 sloped off the back. That's why he was doing that 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:56.680 even though he couldn't you know, he hadn't ever had 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:58.280 a transit on the green to measure it. 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.520 Yeah, that makes a lot sense. So so then it 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.840 you know, be working with him and then you know, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.280 figuring out obviously some of this stuff going on and 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.680 then making it feel like a cohesive set, especially if 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.000 if the back nine, where you have the you know, 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.120 some semblance of plans comes out in a you know, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.160 certain style right right right. 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.560 And the other thing, you know, you you you probably 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:30.400 couldn't if we had plans for all the eighteen greens 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.160 the way they were originally, you probably couldn't build them 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.800 all back to exactly like that because people would put 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.280 off them all day again, you know, near as I 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.200 can tell from the plans for the back nine, a 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.560 couple of the greens had like seven feet a fall 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.000 from back to front. Yeah. That the you know, well 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:49.920 they're built into you know the I mean, it's your 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:54.520 typical American country club from the setting. The clubhouse sits 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.440 up on a ridge, you know, face in the valley 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.680 where the stream goes through, and then the clip's actually 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:02.920 on the far side looking back at the golf course, 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:07.359 so you know you're playing a pretty steeply back up 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.880 hill on both the ninth and eighteenth holes to get 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.520 back to the clubhouse, and he just built greens into 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.560 that steep slope so that you could see the see 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.600 the surface of the green, and I'm sure they were 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.120 like five or six percent. 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:21.920 Just like so the routing in a way is kind 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:26.320 of similar to like Southern hills where he's got the 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.520 clubhouse up top and the course plays out and back 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.359 up and out and back up. Let's see. I feel 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.280 like he did that routing style a lot. Obviously. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.320 Yeah, I don't know. You know, I haven't seen like 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.840 nearly every Maxwell course. I've only seen a handful of them. 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.280 And you know, some people would say, were you really 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.240 the best guy to do this? And you know, certainly 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.560 the price is right for them, But you know, I'm 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.840 I'm the best guy. I'm the best guy only in 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:00.680 the sense that I'm not I'm not trying to make 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:06.040 my reputation off this, and I'm not you know, I'm 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.040 not going to go in there and posture and pretend 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.600 to be Maxwell. I'm just gonna try to do the 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:14.600 best that we possibly can with the best shapers going 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:19.480 and the experience that we have and some good people advising, 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.200 and you know, I'm confident that will work out pretty well. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.040 How does obviously, like Prairie Dunes is you know, a 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.919 stand based site, but how does it compare in terms 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:34.840 of properties to the Maxwells that you've seen. You've seen 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:39.159 Old Town and and Prairie Dune, Southern Hills. 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.959 Yes, a few. And you know it's funny that that 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.200 quite a few of his. You know, even the little 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.080 courses of his that I've seen in Oklahoma and Kansas, 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.520 a lot of them are similar. They have a lot 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.600 of them have a creek going through them. And you know, 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.119 anytime you got a creek, you got two, you got 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:02.119 hills on either side, kind of feeding creek. And you know, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.240 he started on one side, he used the creek in 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.680 play on as many holes as he could figure out 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.640 how to do it, and then everything else kind of 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.359 bouncing off the hills on either side to get to 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:20.399 eighteen holes. So, you know, a similar routing process probably. 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.600 You know, Chris Klauser, who wrote the biography of Maxwell, 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.840 tried to identify certain like template kinds of holes that 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.119 he used, and certainly at Dornic Hills because he'd just 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:36.720 been to the National Golflings of America and spent a 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.639 lot of time with McDonald. There are at least a 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.000 few things that Dorna kills, you could say are kind 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.919 of template holes or at least inspired by something that 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.440 he saw at the National. But there's not like a 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:52.119 Radan hole and an alpshole, you know, not not the 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.679 templates to that degree, but there's certain pieces that are 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.359 kind of like, yeah, you know, I can see a 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:58.480 resemblance there. 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:03.679 And that'll be an exciting project to watch. Micah Pouschelle 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:08.399 who he's a Santa Barbara resident, so you could guess 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.159 what his his questions about. You know, your your Instagram 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:17.359 posts about Sandpiper and you know, I know you you 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.680 said to me that there wasn't you know, they were 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.800 just talking. But curious about that that story. If you 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:25.360 got anything you can share on it. 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.720 So I saw Sandpiper a couple of times, like back 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:34.440 in the eighties, and and I think I went over 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.560 there once while we were working on the Valley Club. 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:41.840 But Sandpiper got bought up like twelve or fourteen years 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:46.119 ago now by Ty Warner, who also owns Montecito Country 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:50.000 Club and a couple of the the really high end hotel. 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.720 That's a baby guy, Yes he is. Ty Warner made 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.600 you know, that was a private company, so he made 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.040 all the profits from that for himself, which he did 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.960 really well. By now he owns all the luxury properties 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:05.600 in Santa Barbara as a result. 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.280 Of it was like one of the most expensive places 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:08.480 by property too. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:15.920 Yeah. So so you know, years ago, I was one 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.960 of many architects that they had come in and like 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:22.720 spend a couple of days and draw a potential plan 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:29.439 for redesigning Sandpiper and and it was like one of 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:36.760 the most frustrating routing exercises I've ever tried to do. 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:39.199 I mean, you know, you look at it and there's like, 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.640 you know, there's there's about the same amount of coastal 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.119 frontage on that course as there is a Pacific Dunes, 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.040 you know, enough for two really long holes along the 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:52.760 course and a par three and a little more there 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:55.639 might be a little more coastal frontage. And one place 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:58.960 it drops right down the beach level on the eleventh 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:00.600 and that comes right back up on the twelfth, and 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:02.840 most of it's up on a cliff one hundred feet high, 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.600 just like Pacific Dunes. But the contra up on top 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.520 is entirely different, and you don't, you know, you don't. 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.280 You're not kind of leaning over the edge of the 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:15.720 cliff looking out all the time. You know, one of 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.879 the holes you're playing along the cliff, but everything tilts 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.000 back inland from the cliff, so you don't really see 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:23.680 you're not really seeing the ocean at all where you're 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:28.880 playing the hole. And you know, so for for your 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.880 typical amateur golfer like the guy who wrote you the note, 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:35.800 or even for an architect, you look at that and 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:38.440 you think, wow, somebody should have done a lot better 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:42.320 with that routing. But when you try to, you know, 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:44.560 just because you think there ought to be a better 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:47.480 solution doesn't mean you can make that fit on the map. 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:49.719 And this is one of those ones that I just 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:51.919 was like, you know, I'm not sure there is a 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.600 much better solution for this. There are two or three 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:58.040 things out there that they're kind of locked into for 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:02.639 environmental reasons, Like you know, down by where the eleventh 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:05.040 green and twelfth t are now, they wouldn't be allowed 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:07.960 if if you ask for permits today, they wouldn't be 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.000 allowed to build a green and tea down there, So 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:14.080