WEBVTT - To impeach or not to impeach? 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.280 Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:06.280 Heart Radio and Katie Kuric Media. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.440 and welcome to Next Question, where we try to understand 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.959 the complicated world we're living in and the crazy things 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:16.880 that are happening by asking questions and by listening to 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.160 people who really know what they're talking about. At times, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.240 it may lead to some pretty uncomfortable conversations, but stick 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:33.080 with me, everyone, let's all learn together. If you've gotten 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.120 into the habit of scrolling past the NonStop breaking news 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.159 alerts dominating your notifications, I get it. Headline fatigue is 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.680 very real. But so many names and titles it's almost 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:48.400 impossible to keep them straight, especially when it comes to 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:53.080 these latest impeachment hearings. That's why we're dedicating today's episode 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.520 to all things impeachment. We'll talk about the arguments for 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.600 and against, and why the country is almost split down 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:04.120 the middle. So to impeach or not to impeach? That 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:10.920 is our next question today. I'm talking with two legal 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.640 experts who represent two different sides of the debate. First up, 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.880 Neil Cartiel. Neil was the acting Solicitor General under President 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.480 Obama and drafted the Justice Department rules that guided the 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:27.160 Muller investigation. So yeah, when it comes to investigating government officials, 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:32.319 Neil really knows what he's talking about. Neil welcome. So 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:34.840 we've got a lot to talk about. But hot off 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:40.039 the presses the US Ambassador to the EU, Gordon Silan's testimony. 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.039 You've called it every bit the bombshell we expected it 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.600 to be. Why in your view was his testimony so 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:51.080 particularly important because this was the guy that Trump pointed 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.800 to to exonerate him. There's been a whole bunch of 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:58.240 characters in this thing, Ambassador Taylor and Colonel Vinman and 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.000 this and that, but there's been one guy throughout that 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.760 President Trump has said is going to exonerate him, who 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.760 even said I hope testifies, but he won't be able 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.440 to testify because he won't get a fair shake in 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.720 the Congress and so on. Well, he did testify today, 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.200 and before he walked in the door, he had a 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.120 twenty page written statement. And that twenty page written statement 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.119 is remarkable. It says there's a whole section called there 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.320 was a quid pro quote, which is of course exactly 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.000 what for many months we've been hearing as the talking 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.840 point of President Trump and his followers, so much so 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.120 that actually Senator Lindsey Graham, who's one of the president's 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.519 closest allies in Congress, said last month, well, if there's 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:40.799 a quid pro quo then everything is different, then I 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:42.600 want to look at it. But otherwise I don't see 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.480 anything here. Well, today, Trump's own guy, the person that 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.560 Trump nominated to be the ambassador to the European Union 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.880 and the guy who Trump took and put in control 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.919 of Ukrainian Ukrainian matters, it said, yes, there was a 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.440 quid pro quote. There's lots of other stuff too, but 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.320 that to me is you know, incredibly significant. That's the 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.040 high water mark of the Trump defense. Before we talk 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:10.680 about this testimony some more, were you surprised, Well, I 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.720 wasn't surprised in the sense of a couple of things 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.240 have happened recently. One is you've had Roger Stone get 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:22.440 convicted essentially for obstructing justice in a congressional investigation. So, 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.200 you know, I don't think anyone could have seen that. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.240 You know, if you're solon last weekend and you're watching 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.640 that conviction and thinking to yourself, boy, I've already been 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.320 accused by at least one member of the House Intelligence 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:38.000 Committee for committing perjury. Um, and now all these people 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.240 are coming forward and saying stuff that I didn't say 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.440 in my earlier statements. Yeah, I'm in trouble. So for example, 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.520 you know, he said he was supposed to detail his 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.400 conversations with the President about Ukraine in his earlier deposition 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:54.040 on October eight. There's not a word about this phone 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:58.960 conversation that he had with President Trump on July and 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.840 set the one in the restaurant exactly unsecured line on 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.680 a mobile phone. Random. And that's just random. It's a 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.280 total security threat. I mean, look, I mean when I 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.160 was in the government, I wouldn't even talk on my 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.520 home line at home land line because you know, you're 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.400 always worried about interception. And the idea that you would 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.880 be able to just sit in a restaurant in Kiev, 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.440 of all places, and not just on a on a 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:24.880 hard line, but on a cell phone and talking not 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.279 just to any government official but the President of the 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:32.159 United States is baffling. What's even more baffling, of course, Katie, 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:34.760 is that he forgot about the conversation, like he just 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.560 mysteriously never mentioned it to the investigator. So do you 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:40.839 think he came forward or came clean to save his 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.080 own hide? Basically, I mean, you couldn't watch any one 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.200 minute of the hearing today and think anything else. This 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.039 was a guy who was bent on self preservation. In 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.000 his opening statement, he said he worked with Rudy Giuliani 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:58.200 at the express direction of President Trump on matters involving Ukraine. 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:02.040 So it was almost as if Rudy Giuliani was conducting 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.320 a shadow government here right, Well, he was conducting a 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.880 shadow a government, but at the president's request, So you know, 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.440 that's what you know. Sanlon also said, so it wasn't 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:13.599 as if this was a circumstance in which it was 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.960 some rogue private attorney for President Trump who was conducting 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.279 Ukrainian foreign policy. So can you conduct a shadow government 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:26.479 at the president's past. It's like a secondary government. That's 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.039 very legal and very cool to Trump. But I think 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.800 in the real world, of course, presidents don't do such things. Um. 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.599 It's an incredibly damaging and dangerous And you know, the 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.120 reason why Katie I wrote this book Impeach is basically 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.239 to make sure that everyone doesn't focus on these little 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.159 twists and turns every day in this story of you 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.440 know what Sonlon said one day or what Giuliani said 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.120 another day. There's like a one central narrative, and it's 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.880 actually one that the Republicans in President Trump doesn't disagree with. 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.679 And that central narrative which comes out in that July 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:04.400 in script in which the President himself released between a 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:08.440 conversation between him and the President of Ukraine, is the 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:13.279 president of Ukraine it's wanting this aid, this military aid. 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.599 And President Trump says, well, wait, though, I need a 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:22.760 favor first. And that is the idea that a president 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.520 or you know, our nation's most powerful official would use 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.240 congressionally appropriated aid or a White House meeting in order 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.560 to advance his own political ends. Um, there's nothing I 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.440 think that is a better definition of what is an 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.680 impeachable offense. Well, let me yea, so help us understand 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:45.680 this as as the expert you are, professor, Um, you 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.880 know what laws? Were there actual laws that were broken? 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:55.200 Even if you think it's grossly inappropriate or just obnoxious 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.560 or weird or self serving, was there an actual law 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.520 broken here? Yes, but that's actually not the question when 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:05.960 you think about impeachment. So there are Constitution and this, 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.239 you know, the whole chapter about this in my book 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:12.240 that the our Constitution says you impeach for what are 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.360 called high crimes and misdemeanors. And that's a phrase of 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.480 art the founders used, not to mean just actual crimes. 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.520 But the core thing that our founders are getting at 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.720 is is there an abuse of government power. And our 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.800 founders didn't actually even want to put impeachment in the constitution. 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.120 Many of them didn't, and um, you know, uh, And 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:36.280 ultimately what one the day was a series of Founders 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.920 Alexander Hamilton and others who said, well, what if a president, 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.080 a sitting president, goes and tries to get help from 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:47.440 a foreign government to win an election. That's their example 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.360 of impeachment. Now at the time, that's not criminal. It 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.600 is now actually, and I'll talk about that in a minute. 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.040 By the time, there was no statute I get criminal 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.400 statute on bribery and the like, but everyone understood that 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.160 to be a high crime and misdemeanor. Today we actually 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.160 do have statutes that prohibit bribery, and this is again 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.080 a textbook definition of that. When did that come about? 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.520 The bribery statutes? I think I've been around more than 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.160 a hundred years, um, And so they've been they've been 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.560 around for a long time. And what they do is 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.760 they they criminalize asking for a thing of value in 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.840 order to get a certain government act. And that's what 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:28.480 a bribery of any government are conducted by any government official, 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.480 including the president exactly. So if you seek a bribe, 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.280 if you're the president and said, and the president says, hey, Katie, 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.760 you know that ambassadorship? Great, you know, if you'll donate 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.880 you know, a hundred thousand dollars to my campaign, Um, 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.679 I will make you ambassador. That is him seeking a 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.120 thing of value hundred thousand dollars from you in exchange 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.400 for an official act, namely your ambassadorship. And here he 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.280 did the same thing. Hey Ukraine, I'll give you this money. Um, 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.280 that Congress is appropriated, but you've got to do a 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.880 favor for me first. Though. Isn't it an implicit understanding 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.760 that big donors become ambassadors? I mean, isn't that kind 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.960 of an unspoken bride. Well, there's a there's a dance, 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.920 a complicated dance that's done if you do it and 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.760 is literally quit pro quo and exchange. It's it's illegal. 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.560 But if you do it as the way many people do, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.679 thank you, wink wink, I really appreciate it. There might 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:23.920 be something really great for you if I get electric. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.200 Sometimes wink winks will get to the point of being 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.160 actually criminal. But for that most part, what you have 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:35.000 is fairly sophisticated actors in this kind of wealthy ambassadorial circle, 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.319 of which looks like Sondlon traveled in donating a million dollars. 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:40.640 And I'm not suggesting at all that you know, that 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.200 kind of thing happens. You know, someone donates a lot 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.240 and some good plum job comes along for them later. 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:51.920 That's very different than this, which is the president himself saying, hey, 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.800 if you want the foreign aid, you know what you 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.959 gotta do. You gotta go investigate my chief political rival. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.360 Why don't you think the president pleaded ignorance instead of 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.160 claiming this call was perfect. Why wouldn't he just say, 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:09.720 you know, I didn't think this was a problem. Well, 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.040 I mean, only he can answer that question. But but 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.480 one point of speculation is this, that call took place 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:20.760 on July. One day before on July, something pretty significant happened. 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.520 Robert Mueller, who had been investigating the president for almost 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:27.440 two years, testified in Congress, and I would say didn't 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.520 testify particularly clearly. Um, there was a lot of garble 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.320 and so on, and the president, I think, you know, 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.600 and you just it comes across even in this fake transcript. 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.360 It's not a full transcript. We don't know exactly what 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.319 was said, but even just what they released, it really 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.200 shows kind of a person who has no appreciation for 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:48.760 the rule of law. I mean, we've seen this in 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.800 other ways, but I think on that day in particular, 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.560 he was really feeling it explained though, why you think, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.160 you know, if if Muller was sort of garbled and 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.559 didn't seem to come down that hard on the president, right, 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.680 why would he have done this? Why would the president 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.960 of that? Because at that moment in time, because it 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.520 seemed to me that Mueller was sort of wishy washy 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.520 as everyone said. Yeah. So because of that, I think 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:16.920 the President felt like, Okay, I can do I can 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.760 do this kind of award by Muller Exactly, I can 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.480 do this kind of stuff. I mean, Trump's instincts all 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.920 along have been pretty much to not respect the rule 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.080 of law, to not respect institutions. That pushed back against them, 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.680 to call them never Trumpers or whatever at you know, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.240 labels he wants to use. So that's always been his 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.840 kind of m oh. But I think on that day 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.480 in particular, he must have felt particularly empowered. You know, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.360 it was interesting that Salmon said that he really wanted 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.800 the investigation to be announced, almost more than he wanted 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.680 the investigation to take place, which is pretty significant. He 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.000 wanted to do the damage and kind of a whisper 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.080 campaign almost against Joe Biden as he was as he 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.319 runs for president and against Hunter Biden and suggests this 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.840 sort of scandal. Katie, I'm so glad you brought that up, 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:10.720 because to me, that was one of the most important 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:15.199 things in today's testimony. Ambassador Snlon said that what Trump 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.520 wanted was the announcement of an investigation by the Ukrainians, 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.040 not them actually doing it. Now, you know, I've been 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.559 a law enforcement in two different administrations. The idea that 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:28.320 you're if you're conducting a criminal investigation, you would announce it. 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.679 Of course, not that's the last thing you do, because 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.760 you want to do all the interviewing and all the 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.720 confidential inquiries first in order to catch people in perjury 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.040 and things like that, and so you know, they're the 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.920 president has been saying this is about corruption, this is 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.360 why he did this corruption in general. But when drilled 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:48.560 down and asked and people say, well, did you ever 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.120 care about corruption in any other country? There's a hundred 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.240 ninety four other countries you ever know Ukraine? And with 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.960 respect to Ukraine, did you ever care about any other 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.520 kind of corruption besides this one thing? If acting Vice 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.920 President Biden? No, At some point this starts to smell. 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.920 It's not a particularly powerful story. Let's talk about just 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.640 because I want this to be impeachment one oh one 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.679 for people. Um, But before we talk about sort of 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:17.400 the nuts and bolts of the process. I think that 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:22.560 even the suggestion of impropriety by Hunter Biden, you know, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:27.920 as part of this Ukrainian oil company Barisma. Um, I 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.120 think it's something that that President Trump is very good 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.480 at sort of putting things out in the ether and 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:39.000 kind of letting it kind of enter people's psyches in 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:44.120 Layman's terms. Is there any there there, Neil with Hunter Biden? Well, 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.079 because it does, it does sound a little fun. Yeah. Now, 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:48.839 I mean in the book, I say, you know, I 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.280 have a whole section about did Hunter Biden and Biden 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.800 do something wrong. I think you did something, you know, 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.080 morally wrong, not legally wrong. But the idea that you 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.480 take a job because of who your dad is, I 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.000 have a problem with that. So it's a little sketchy, 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.040 and it's a little sketchy. I don't think it means 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.320 that you go in launch some secret investigation and hold 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.360 up congressionally appropriated aid and do all the things that 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.280 the President did. That's you know, even if Biden did 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.960 something that was let's say, criminal, which I don't think 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.640 anyone agrees that there there was that on the part 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.880 of the sun And indeed, even Trump's own witness Vulgar 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.760 yesterday testified that I've known Biden for twenty four years 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.800 and he would never do something that would compromise his 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.760 values to this nation's interests. So, you know, but even 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.880 if you put all that aside and said, Okay, Trump's right, 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.880 there was something really bad that was done here that 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.920 would never justify you going and deputizing your private attorney 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.240 to Rudy Giuliani, to go to another country and to 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.200 threaten and hold up military aid that our taxpayer dollars 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.680 have appropriated for the nation's interests and the Ukraine really 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.800 needs right to protect itself from guess who, Russia. Exactly, 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.320 I'm so glad you brought that up, because again Trump's 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.600 witness yesterday, Ambassador Vulcar said exactly that said, look, I'm 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:09.920 opposed to the idea of holding up to say this 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:14.560 aid is really important encountering Russian aggression in the region. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.760 So once again we see this thing in which the 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:23.560 president is just out doing favors for Russia. Now, I 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:25.720 don't know that that motivated him here. It's probably he 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.280 had more personal motivations here in terms of a political agenda, 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.560 but it does demonstrate the stakes here in which you 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.480 have a president who cares more about himself, who cares 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:41.360 more about his re election than what the taxpayers and 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.960 Congress have appropriated in the nation's interest. We're going to 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.000 take a quick break. We'll have more from Neil Cartiel 0:15:49.240 --> 0:16:02.440 when we come back. Solon said also in his testimony, 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:07.560 everyone was in the loop, referring to senior administration officials, 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.520 including Mike Pompeio, the Secretary of State, Vice President Mike 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:16.440 Penn's acting chief of staff, Nick bolvany Um. So have 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.480 they been implicated and what might the repercussions be for them. 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.840 I mean, these guys aren't going to be impeached. What 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.800 will happen to them anything? Uh? They I do think 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.320 things will happen to them. So Solon's testimony today really 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.560 was a kind of detonation that he basically took the view, Look, 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.000 if I'm going down, I'm picking a lot of other 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.920 people with me. Mulvaney, the acting Chief of Staff, Bolton, 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.640 the former National Security Advisor, Um, you know, Pompeio, the 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.200 Secretary of State, Uh, you know, and the list goes 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.480 on and on and quit sort of. And and didn't 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.000 he direct the White House lawyers to be notified about this? 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.920 I mean, he clearly felt uncomfortable with this. Correct, that's 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.000 what the reporting says. But you know, I think one 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.200 of the hard things about this, Katie, is we don't 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.240 know because the President has gagged every one of these 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.440 people from coming forward and telling the truth to the Congress. 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.480 Can you do that? I mean, can't they subpoena these folks? 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:12.600 They can, but it's going to take some time in 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.360 the courts. And I think the Democrats have taken the view, 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.040 which I actually agree with, is they've got enough evidence 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:20.479 now to impeach and do we want to delay things 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.280 more and more in the courts. Now, there's gonna be 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.440 a decision coming down in a few days by the 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.600 d C Court on some privilege issues, and it may 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.840 open the door for Bolton to testify in his own 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:33.720 And I think it's notable that a lot of the 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.639 testimony we've heard over the last week, like from Colonel 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:41.560 Vinman or Ambassador Yanovov Yanevovich and people like that, are 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.960 all folks have come forward despite the President's gag order 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.320 and said I'm just going to tell the truth and 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.000 might do that. I think he might, you know, I 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.600 think for the courts decide I do. I mean, at 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.560 the end of the day, Bolton is a lawyer, um, 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.879 and you know he's far more conservative than I am. 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.879 But I do think that in you know, deep in 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.159 his heart is a respect for the kind of common 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.520 calling we have as a profession, the idea that you know, 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:14.080 when you're a witness to important events, um, you tell 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.400 them to the American people and let the chips fall 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:20.000 where they may. Meanwhile, Ambassador son Land said he never 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.600 heard directly from President Trump that the military aid was 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:28.320 conditioned on an announcement of investigations, saying that assumption was 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:34.159 his own personal guests. So is that enough? Well, I 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.640 mean if he never heard those exact words, Hey, if 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:43.640 this doesn't happen, there won't be foreign aid and ps 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.480 that White House visit will be canceled. If this were 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.399 the If the case against President Trump was built all 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.160 around the son Land testimony, I think it certainly wouldn't 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.880 be enough. The problem for Trump is Sonland is not 0:18:56.040 --> 0:19:00.160 the is not the prosecution witness. He's the defense witness. 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.640 So he's the best story Trump has got, and all 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.359 he's got is well the President directly say this, but 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.760 everyone knew and everyone was in the loop on exactly 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:12.639 what was going on. What do you think? What do 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.879 you think President Trump was thinking when he watched this, 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.600 If he watched it, even though he claims he wasn't 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.200 watching it, right, Yeah, I I don't think that there's 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.960 a way anyone can watch this, you know, if you're 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.560 if you're the president, and watch this being said about 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.560 you without having a deep pit in your stomach. And 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.240 I think that's why we see the more and more 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.920 lashing out by this president. You know, um, but at 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.240 some point he's going to have to face the facts. 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.600 And the facts are not based on Sun Len's testimony alone, 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:45.159 but on that July transcript in which the quid pro 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.320 quo is right there. It's not you know, I need 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.359 a favor from you, though, That's what the president says, 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:53.800 and so you know, there isn't really a way for 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:57.120 him to walk away from it. Well this really mattered, though, Neil. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.920 That's the question. Let's talk short term and long term. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.280 Short term being uh, if he is impeached a trial 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.159 in the Senate, is there anything that we heard today 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:12.119 that might move the needle for Republican senators to vote 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.720 to convict President Trump or for some of them to 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.560 basically abandoned the president. I think so far they're only two. 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.639 I do think that as senators go and look at 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:28.119 the evidence and ask themselves, you know the question that 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.080 I put in my book, which is, you know, just 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.560 flipped the parties around. Pretend this is what we do 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:35.119 with law students in their first year. You say, everyone's 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.360 got certain biases when they walk in and you say, well, 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.080 just pretend you're representing the defendant instead of the plain 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.639 if if you are planiff focused and vice versa. I 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:45.760 think the same thing has to be put to the Senators, 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.760 and they've never actually been asked this simple question, which is, 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.159 you know, if the shoes on the other foot, if 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.639 it's President Obama who went and got secret help from 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.639 a foreign governmor tried to do so and held up 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.399 congressionally appropriated aid or doled out White House meetings to 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:06.600 countries that investigated his political rivals, would you sit by 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.240 and say, oh, yeah, that's cool, he can be president. 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.120 I just don't think that, you know, a senator could 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.879 look at herself for himself in the mirror and say, yeah, 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.560 that's the kind of government I want. And I know 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.040 there are so many Americans who have been disparited over 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:26.240 the last three years as Congresses look the other way 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:30.080 on this and that, But we've never actually forced them 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.040 to go and cast that vote. And here it will 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:35.840 be one of the most solemn votes I'll ever cast 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.320 in their lives, most solemn things they ever do. And 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.240 can they really do that? I don't know, um, but 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.240 I have faith that in the Senate and that they 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:50.480 will study this, think about it, ask the question that 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:52.240 I just asked, What if the shoe were on the 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:54.640 other foot, and reach the right judgment. I don't mean 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.520 to be cynical, but politics seems to be the number 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.840 one priority for many these Republican senators. So why do 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:07.440 you believe that suddenly they'll have an epiphany and uh, 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.920 sort of a crisis of confidence in the president and 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:15.920 their conscious consciences will emerge at this moment in time. Well, 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:17.679 I have to think that two things. One is I 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.959 have to think when you go into public office, you know, 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:21.639 there are a lot of ways to make money or 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.040 get power. I think you do it for some sense 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:26.920 of the public good. And so, um, you know, I 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:29.320 think I think at first you do, and then it's 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:31.879 all about staying in power, don't you But maybe but 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.920 even if so, Um, the idea of associating yourself with this, 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.480 with this kind of lawlessness, I don't know makes for 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.800 very good politics, um in in the long term. Um. 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.480 And you know, we're seeing this election after election, the 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.040