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Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Katie Kuric Media. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Next Question, where we try to understand

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Speaker 1: the complicated world we're living in and the crazy things

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Speaker 1: that are happening by asking questions and by listening to

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Speaker 1: people who really know what they're talking about. At times,

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Speaker 1: it may lead to some pretty uncomfortable conversations, but stick

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Speaker 1: with me, everyone, let's all learn together. If you've gotten

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Speaker 1: into the habit of scrolling past the NonStop breaking news

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Speaker 1: alerts dominating your notifications, I get it. Headline fatigue is

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Speaker 1: very real. But so many names and titles it's almost

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Speaker 1: impossible to keep them straight, especially when it comes to

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Speaker 1: these latest impeachment hearings. That's why we're dedicating today's episode

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Speaker 1: to all things impeachment. We'll talk about the arguments for

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Speaker 1: and against, and why the country is almost split down

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Speaker 1: the middle. So to impeach or not to impeach? That

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Speaker 1: is our next question today. I'm talking with two legal

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Speaker 1: experts who represent two different sides of the debate. First up,

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Speaker 1: Neil Cartiel. Neil was the acting Solicitor General under President

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Speaker 1: Obama and drafted the Justice Department rules that guided the

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Speaker 1: Muller investigation. So yeah, when it comes to investigating government officials,

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Speaker 1: Neil really knows what he's talking about. Neil welcome. So

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Speaker 1: we've got a lot to talk about. But hot off

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Speaker 1: the presses the US Ambassador to the EU, Gordon Silan's testimony.

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Speaker 1: You've called it every bit the bombshell we expected it

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Speaker 1: to be. Why in your view was his testimony so

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Speaker 1: particularly important because this was the guy that Trump pointed

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Speaker 1: to to exonerate him. There's been a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: characters in this thing, Ambassador Taylor and Colonel Vinman and

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Speaker 1: this and that, but there's been one guy throughout that

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Speaker 1: President Trump has said is going to exonerate him, who

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Speaker 1: even said I hope testifies, but he won't be able

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Speaker 1: to testify because he won't get a fair shake in

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Speaker 1: the Congress and so on. Well, he did testify today,

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Speaker 1: and before he walked in the door, he had a

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Speaker 1: twenty page written statement. And that twenty page written statement

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Speaker 1: is remarkable. It says there's a whole section called there

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Speaker 1: was a quid pro quote, which is of course exactly

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Speaker 1: what for many months we've been hearing as the talking

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Speaker 1: point of President Trump and his followers, so much so

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Speaker 1: that actually Senator Lindsey Graham, who's one of the president's

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Speaker 1: closest allies in Congress, said last month, well, if there's

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Speaker 1: a quid pro quo then everything is different, then I

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Speaker 1: want to look at it. But otherwise I don't see

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Speaker 1: anything here. Well, today, Trump's own guy, the person that

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Speaker 1: Trump nominated to be the ambassador to the European Union

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Speaker 1: and the guy who Trump took and put in control

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Speaker 1: of Ukrainian Ukrainian matters, it said, yes, there was a

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Speaker 1: quid pro quote. There's lots of other stuff too, but

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Speaker 1: that to me is you know, incredibly significant. That's the

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Speaker 1: high water mark of the Trump defense. Before we talk

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Speaker 1: about this testimony some more, were you surprised, Well, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't surprised in the sense of a couple of things

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Speaker 1: have happened recently. One is you've had Roger Stone get

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Speaker 1: convicted essentially for obstructing justice in a congressional investigation. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't think anyone could have seen that.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you're solon last weekend and you're watching

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Speaker 1: that conviction and thinking to yourself, boy, I've already been

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Speaker 1: accused by at least one member of the House Intelligence

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Speaker 1: Committee for committing perjury. Um, and now all these people

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Speaker 1: are coming forward and saying stuff that I didn't say

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Speaker 1: in my earlier statements. Yeah, I'm in trouble. So for example,

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Speaker 1: you know, he said he was supposed to detail his

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Speaker 1: conversations with the President about Ukraine in his earlier deposition

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Speaker 1: on October eight. There's not a word about this phone

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Speaker 1: conversation that he had with President Trump on July and

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Speaker 1: set the one in the restaurant exactly unsecured line on

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Speaker 1: a mobile phone. Random. And that's just random. It's a

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Speaker 1: total security threat. I mean, look, I mean when I

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Speaker 1: was in the government, I wouldn't even talk on my

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Speaker 1: home line at home land line because you know, you're

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Speaker 1: always worried about interception. And the idea that you would

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Speaker 1: be able to just sit in a restaurant in Kiev,

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Speaker 1: of all places, and not just on a on a

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Speaker 1: hard line, but on a cell phone and talking not

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Speaker 1: just to any government official but the President of the

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Speaker 1: United States is baffling. What's even more baffling, of course, Katie,

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Speaker 1: is that he forgot about the conversation, like he just

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Speaker 1: mysteriously never mentioned it to the investigator. So do you

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Speaker 1: think he came forward or came clean to save his

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Speaker 1: own hide? Basically, I mean, you couldn't watch any one

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Speaker 1: minute of the hearing today and think anything else. This

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Speaker 1: was a guy who was bent on self preservation. In

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Speaker 1: his opening statement, he said he worked with Rudy Giuliani

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Speaker 1: at the express direction of President Trump on matters involving Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: So it was almost as if Rudy Giuliani was conducting

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Speaker 1: a shadow government here right, Well, he was conducting a

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Speaker 1: shadow a government, but at the president's request, So you know,

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Speaker 1: that's what you know. Sanlon also said, so it wasn't

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Speaker 1: as if this was a circumstance in which it was

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Speaker 1: some rogue private attorney for President Trump who was conducting

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian foreign policy. So can you conduct a shadow government

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Speaker 1: at the president's past. It's like a secondary government. That's

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Speaker 1: very legal and very cool to Trump. But I think

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Speaker 1: in the real world, of course, presidents don't do such things. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's an incredibly damaging and dangerous And you know, the

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Speaker 1: reason why Katie I wrote this book Impeach is basically

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Speaker 1: to make sure that everyone doesn't focus on these little

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Speaker 1: twists and turns every day in this story of you

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Speaker 1: know what Sonlon said one day or what Giuliani said

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Speaker 1: another day. There's like a one central narrative, and it's

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Speaker 1: actually one that the Republicans in President Trump doesn't disagree with.

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Speaker 1: And that central narrative which comes out in that July

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Speaker 1: in script in which the President himself released between a

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Speaker 1: conversation between him and the President of Ukraine, is the

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Speaker 1: president of Ukraine it's wanting this aid, this military aid.

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Speaker 1: And President Trump says, well, wait, though, I need a

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Speaker 1: favor first. And that is the idea that a president

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Speaker 1: or you know, our nation's most powerful official would use

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Speaker 1: congressionally appropriated aid or a White House meeting in order

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Speaker 1: to advance his own political ends. Um, there's nothing I

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Speaker 1: think that is a better definition of what is an

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Speaker 1: impeachable offense. Well, let me yea, so help us understand

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Speaker 1: this as as the expert you are, professor, Um, you

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Speaker 1: know what laws? Were there actual laws that were broken?

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Speaker 1: Even if you think it's grossly inappropriate or just obnoxious

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Speaker 1: or weird or self serving, was there an actual law

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Speaker 1: broken here? Yes, but that's actually not the question when

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Speaker 1: you think about impeachment. So there are Constitution and this,

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Speaker 1: you know, the whole chapter about this in my book

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Speaker 1: that the our Constitution says you impeach for what are

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Speaker 1: called high crimes and misdemeanors. And that's a phrase of

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Speaker 1: art the founders used, not to mean just actual crimes.

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Speaker 1: But the core thing that our founders are getting at

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Speaker 1: is is there an abuse of government power. And our

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Speaker 1: founders didn't actually even want to put impeachment in the constitution.

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Speaker 1: Many of them didn't, and um, you know, uh, And

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Speaker 1: ultimately what one the day was a series of Founders

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Speaker 1: Alexander Hamilton and others who said, well, what if a president,

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Speaker 1: a sitting president, goes and tries to get help from

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Speaker 1: a foreign government to win an election. That's their example

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Speaker 1: of impeachment. Now at the time, that's not criminal. It

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Speaker 1: is now actually, and I'll talk about that in a minute.

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Speaker 1: By the time, there was no statute I get criminal

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Speaker 1: statute on bribery and the like, but everyone understood that

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Speaker 1: to be a high crime and misdemeanor. Today we actually

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Speaker 1: do have statutes that prohibit bribery, and this is again

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Speaker 1: a textbook definition of that. When did that come about?

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Speaker 1: The bribery statutes? I think I've been around more than

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Speaker 1: a hundred years, um, And so they've been they've been

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Speaker 1: around for a long time. And what they do is

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Speaker 1: they they criminalize asking for a thing of value in

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Speaker 1: order to get a certain government act. And that's what

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Speaker 1: a bribery of any government are conducted by any government official,

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Speaker 1: including the president exactly. So if you seek a bribe,

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Speaker 1: if you're the president and said, and the president says, hey, Katie,

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Speaker 1: you know that ambassadorship? Great, you know, if you'll donate

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Speaker 1: you know, a hundred thousand dollars to my campaign, Um,

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Speaker 1: I will make you ambassador. That is him seeking a

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Speaker 1: thing of value hundred thousand dollars from you in exchange

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Speaker 1: for an official act, namely your ambassadorship. And here he

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Speaker 1: did the same thing. Hey Ukraine, I'll give you this money. Um,

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Speaker 1: that Congress is appropriated, but you've got to do a

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Speaker 1: favor for me first. Though. Isn't it an implicit understanding

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Speaker 1: that big donors become ambassadors? I mean, isn't that kind

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Speaker 1: of an unspoken bride. Well, there's a there's a dance,

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Speaker 1: a complicated dance that's done if you do it and

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Speaker 1: is literally quit pro quo and exchange. It's it's illegal.

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Speaker 1: But if you do it as the way many people do,

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Speaker 1: thank you, wink wink, I really appreciate it. There might

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Speaker 1: be something really great for you if I get electric.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes wink winks will get to the point of being

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Speaker 1: actually criminal. But for that most part, what you have

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Speaker 1: is fairly sophisticated actors in this kind of wealthy ambassadorial circle,

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Speaker 1: of which looks like Sondlon traveled in donating a million dollars.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not suggesting at all that you know, that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing happens. You know, someone donates a lot

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Speaker 1: and some good plum job comes along for them later.

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Speaker 1: That's very different than this, which is the president himself saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: if you want the foreign aid, you know what you

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Speaker 1: gotta do. You gotta go investigate my chief political rival.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you think the president pleaded ignorance instead of

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Speaker 1: claiming this call was perfect. Why wouldn't he just say,

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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't think this was a problem. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, only he can answer that question. But but

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Speaker 1: one point of speculation is this, that call took place

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Speaker 1: on July. One day before on July, something pretty significant happened.

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Speaker 1: Robert Mueller, who had been investigating the president for almost

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Speaker 1: two years, testified in Congress, and I would say didn't

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Speaker 1: testify particularly clearly. Um, there was a lot of garble

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Speaker 1: and so on, and the president, I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you just it comes across even in this fake transcript.

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Speaker 1: It's not a full transcript. We don't know exactly what

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Speaker 1: was said, but even just what they released, it really

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Speaker 1: shows kind of a person who has no appreciation for

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Speaker 1: the rule of law. I mean, we've seen this in

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Speaker 1: other ways, but I think on that day in particular,

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Speaker 1: he was really feeling it explained though, why you think,

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Speaker 1: you know, if if Muller was sort of garbled and

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Speaker 1: didn't seem to come down that hard on the president, right,

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Speaker 1: why would he have done this? Why would the president

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Speaker 1: of that? Because at that moment in time, because it

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Speaker 1: seemed to me that Mueller was sort of wishy washy

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Speaker 1: as everyone said. Yeah. So because of that, I think

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Speaker 1: the President felt like, Okay, I can do I can

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Speaker 1: do this kind of award by Muller Exactly, I can

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Speaker 1: do this kind of stuff. I mean, Trump's instincts all

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Speaker 1: along have been pretty much to not respect the rule

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Speaker 1: of law, to not respect institutions. That pushed back against them,

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Speaker 1: to call them never Trumpers or whatever at you know,

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Speaker 1: labels he wants to use. So that's always been his

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Speaker 1: kind of m oh. But I think on that day

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Speaker 1: in particular, he must have felt particularly empowered. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was interesting that Salmon said that he really wanted

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Speaker 1: the investigation to be announced, almost more than he wanted

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Speaker 1: the investigation to take place, which is pretty significant. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to do the damage and kind of a whisper

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Speaker 1: campaign almost against Joe Biden as he was as he

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Speaker 1: runs for president and against Hunter Biden and suggests this

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Speaker 1: sort of scandal. Katie, I'm so glad you brought that up,

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Speaker 1: because to me, that was one of the most important

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Speaker 1: things in today's testimony. Ambassador Snlon said that what Trump

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Speaker 1: wanted was the announcement of an investigation by the Ukrainians,

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Speaker 1: not them actually doing it. Now, you know, I've been

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Speaker 1: a law enforcement in two different administrations. The idea that

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Speaker 1: you're if you're conducting a criminal investigation, you would announce it.

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Speaker 1: Of course, not that's the last thing you do, because

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Speaker 1: you want to do all the interviewing and all the

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Speaker 1: confidential inquiries first in order to catch people in perjury

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Speaker 1: and things like that, and so you know, they're the

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Speaker 1: president has been saying this is about corruption, this is

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Speaker 1: why he did this corruption in general. But when drilled

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Speaker 1: down and asked and people say, well, did you ever

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Speaker 1: care about corruption in any other country? There's a hundred

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Speaker 1: ninety four other countries you ever know Ukraine? And with

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Speaker 1: respect to Ukraine, did you ever care about any other

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Speaker 1: kind of corruption besides this one thing? If acting Vice

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Speaker 1: President Biden? No, At some point this starts to smell.

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Speaker 1: It's not a particularly powerful story. Let's talk about just

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Speaker 1: because I want this to be impeachment one oh one

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Speaker 1: for people. Um, But before we talk about sort of

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Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of the process. I think that

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Speaker 1: even the suggestion of impropriety by Hunter Biden, you know,

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Speaker 1: as part of this Ukrainian oil company Barisma. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think it's something that that President Trump is very good

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Speaker 1: at sort of putting things out in the ether and

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Speaker 1: kind of letting it kind of enter people's psyches in

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Speaker 1: Layman's terms. Is there any there there, Neil with Hunter Biden? Well,

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Speaker 1: because it does, it does sound a little fun. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: I mean in the book, I say, you know, I

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Speaker 1: have a whole section about did Hunter Biden and Biden

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Speaker 1: do something wrong. I think you did something, you know,

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Speaker 1: morally wrong, not legally wrong. But the idea that you

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Speaker 1: take a job because of who your dad is, I

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Speaker 1: have a problem with that. So it's a little sketchy,

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Speaker 1: and it's a little sketchy. I don't think it means

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Speaker 1: that you go in launch some secret investigation and hold

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Speaker 1: up congressionally appropriated aid and do all the things that

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Speaker 1: the President did. That's you know, even if Biden did

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Speaker 1: something that was let's say, criminal, which I don't think

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Speaker 1: anyone agrees that there there was that on the part

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Speaker 1: of the sun And indeed, even Trump's own witness Vulgar

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Speaker 1: yesterday testified that I've known Biden for twenty four years

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Speaker 1: and he would never do something that would compromise his

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Speaker 1: values to this nation's interests. So, you know, but even

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Speaker 1: if you put all that aside and said, Okay, Trump's right,

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Speaker 1: there was something really bad that was done here that

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Speaker 1: would never justify you going and deputizing your private attorney

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Speaker 1: to Rudy Giuliani, to go to another country and to

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Speaker 1: threaten and hold up military aid that our taxpayer dollars

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Speaker 1: have appropriated for the nation's interests and the Ukraine really

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Speaker 1: needs right to protect itself from guess who, Russia. Exactly,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought that up, because again Trump's

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Speaker 1: witness yesterday, Ambassador Vulcar said exactly that said, look, I'm

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Speaker 1: opposed to the idea of holding up to say this

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Speaker 1: aid is really important encountering Russian aggression in the region.

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Speaker 1: So once again we see this thing in which the

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Speaker 1: president is just out doing favors for Russia. Now, I

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Speaker 1: don't know that that motivated him here. It's probably he

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Speaker 1: had more personal motivations here in terms of a political agenda,

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Speaker 1: but it does demonstrate the stakes here in which you

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Speaker 1: have a president who cares more about himself, who cares

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Speaker 1: more about his re election than what the taxpayers and

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Speaker 1: Congress have appropriated in the nation's interest. We're going to

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Speaker 1: take a quick break. We'll have more from Neil Cartiel

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Speaker 1: when we come back. Solon said also in his testimony,

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Speaker 1: everyone was in the loop, referring to senior administration officials,

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Speaker 1: including Mike Pompeio, the Secretary of State, Vice President Mike

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Speaker 1: Penn's acting chief of staff, Nick bolvany Um. So have

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Speaker 1: they been implicated and what might the repercussions be for them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these guys aren't going to be impeached. What

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Speaker 1: will happen to them anything? Uh? They I do think

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Speaker 1: things will happen to them. So Solon's testimony today really

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Speaker 1: was a kind of detonation that he basically took the view, Look,

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Speaker 1: if I'm going down, I'm picking a lot of other

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Speaker 1: people with me. Mulvaney, the acting Chief of Staff, Bolton,

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Speaker 1: the former National Security Advisor, Um, you know, Pompeio, the

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Speaker 1: Secretary of State, Uh, you know, and the list goes

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Speaker 1: on and on and quit sort of. And and didn't

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Speaker 1: he direct the White House lawyers to be notified about this?

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Speaker 1: I mean, he clearly felt uncomfortable with this. Correct, that's

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Speaker 1: what the reporting says. But you know, I think one

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Speaker 1: of the hard things about this, Katie, is we don't

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Speaker 1: know because the President has gagged every one of these

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Speaker 1: people from coming forward and telling the truth to the Congress.

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Speaker 1: Can you do that? I mean, can't they subpoena these folks?

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Speaker 1: They can, but it's going to take some time in

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Speaker 1: the courts. And I think the Democrats have taken the view,

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Speaker 1: which I actually agree with, is they've got enough evidence

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Speaker 1: now to impeach and do we want to delay things

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Speaker 1: more and more in the courts. Now, there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a decision coming down in a few days by the

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Speaker 1: d C Court on some privilege issues, and it may

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Speaker 1: open the door for Bolton to testify in his own

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Speaker 1: And I think it's notable that a lot of the

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Speaker 1: testimony we've heard over the last week, like from Colonel

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Speaker 1: Vinman or Ambassador Yanovov Yanevovich and people like that, are

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Speaker 1: all folks have come forward despite the President's gag order

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Speaker 1: and said I'm just going to tell the truth and

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Speaker 1: might do that. I think he might, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think for the courts decide I do. I mean, at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, Bolton is a lawyer, um,

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Speaker 1: and you know he's far more conservative than I am.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that in you know, deep in

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Speaker 1: his heart is a respect for the kind of common

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Speaker 1: calling we have as a profession, the idea that you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're a witness to important events, um, you tell

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Speaker 1: them to the American people and let the chips fall

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Speaker 1: where they may. Meanwhile, Ambassador son Land said he never

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Speaker 1: heard directly from President Trump that the military aid was

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Speaker 1: conditioned on an announcement of investigations, saying that assumption was

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Speaker 1: his own personal guests. So is that enough? Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean if he never heard those exact words, Hey, if

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Speaker 1: this doesn't happen, there won't be foreign aid and ps

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Speaker 1: that White House visit will be canceled. If this were

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Speaker 1: the If the case against President Trump was built all

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Speaker 1: around the son Land testimony, I think it certainly wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be enough. The problem for Trump is Sonland is not

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Speaker 1: the is not the prosecution witness. He's the defense witness.

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Speaker 1: So he's the best story Trump has got, and all

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Speaker 1: he's got is well the President directly say this, but

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Speaker 1: everyone knew and everyone was in the loop on exactly

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Speaker 1: what was going on. What do you think? What do

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Speaker 1: you think President Trump was thinking when he watched this,

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Speaker 1: If he watched it, even though he claims he wasn't

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Speaker 1: watching it, right, Yeah, I I don't think that there's

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Speaker 1: a way anyone can watch this, you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: if you're the president, and watch this being said about

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Speaker 1: you without having a deep pit in your stomach. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's why we see the more and more

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Speaker 1: lashing out by this president. You know, um, but at

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Speaker 1: some point he's going to have to face the facts.

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Speaker 1: And the facts are not based on Sun Len's testimony alone,

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Speaker 1: but on that July transcript in which the quid pro

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Speaker 1: quo is right there. It's not you know, I need

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Speaker 1: a favor from you, though, That's what the president says,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, there isn't really a way for

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Speaker 1: him to walk away from it. Well this really mattered, though, Neil.

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Speaker 1: That's the question. Let's talk short term and long term.

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Speaker 1: Short term being uh, if he is impeached a trial

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Speaker 1: in the Senate, is there anything that we heard today

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Speaker 1: that might move the needle for Republican senators to vote

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Speaker 1: to convict President Trump or for some of them to

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Speaker 1: basically abandoned the president. I think so far they're only two.

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Speaker 1: I do think that as senators go and look at

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Speaker 1: the evidence and ask themselves, you know the question that

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Speaker 1: I put in my book, which is, you know, just

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Speaker 1: flipped the parties around. Pretend this is what we do

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Speaker 1: with law students in their first year. You say, everyone's

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Speaker 1: got certain biases when they walk in and you say, well,

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Speaker 1: just pretend you're representing the defendant instead of the plain

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Speaker 1: if if you are planiff focused and vice versa. I

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Speaker 1: think the same thing has to be put to the Senators,

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Speaker 1: and they've never actually been asked this simple question, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, if the shoes on the other foot, if

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Speaker 1: it's President Obama who went and got secret help from

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Speaker 1: a foreign governmor tried to do so and held up

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Speaker 1: congressionally appropriated aid or doled out White House meetings to

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Speaker 1: countries that investigated his political rivals, would you sit by

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Speaker 1: and say, oh, yeah, that's cool, he can be president.

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Speaker 1: I just don't think that, you know, a senator could

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Speaker 1: look at herself for himself in the mirror and say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the kind of government I want. And I know

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Speaker 1: there are so many Americans who have been disparited over

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Speaker 1: the last three years as Congresses look the other way

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Speaker 1: on this and that, But we've never actually forced them

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Speaker 1: to go and cast that vote. And here it will

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Speaker 1: be one of the most solemn votes I'll ever cast

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Speaker 1: in their lives, most solemn things they ever do. And

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Speaker 1: can they really do that? I don't know, um, but

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Speaker 1: I have faith that in the Senate and that they

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Speaker 1: will study this, think about it, ask the question that

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Speaker 1: I just asked, What if the shoe were on the

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Speaker 1: other foot, and reach the right judgment. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: to be cynical, but politics seems to be the number

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Speaker 1: one priority for many these Republican senators. So why do

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Speaker 1: you believe that suddenly they'll have an epiphany and uh,

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Speaker 1: sort of a crisis of confidence in the president and

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Speaker 1: their conscious consciences will emerge at this moment in time. Well,

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Speaker 1: I have to think that two things. One is I

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Speaker 1: have to think when you go into public office, you know,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of ways to make money or

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Speaker 1: get power. I think you do it for some sense

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Speaker 1: of the public good. And so, um, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think I think at first you do, and then it's

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Speaker 1: all about staying in power, don't you But maybe but

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Speaker 1: even if so, Um, the idea of associating yourself with this,

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Speaker 1: with this kind of lawlessness, I don't know makes for

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Speaker 1: very good politics, um in in the long term. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we're seeing this election after election, the

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Speaker 1: elections just you know, last week, you know, again and

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Speaker 1: again the president is losing. And I do think one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons he's losing is because of this corrosive

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Speaker 1: view about the law. So even if the Senate does

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Speaker 1: not vote to convict you think he there will be

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Speaker 1: hell to pay in November President Trump. Oh my, yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, I I you know, I understand there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people out there who say we should

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Speaker 1: have defeat President Trump at the ballot box and not

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Speaker 1: impeach and removed. And I think, look, I think that

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Speaker 1: you know, with this kind of record, there's no way

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Speaker 1: President Trump could be re elected. Um, you know so.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I think worth

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Speaker 1: setting something here that's far bigger than just the next election,

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Speaker 1: which of course has moment to stakes. But we're setting

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Speaker 1: the ground rules for what our American experiment is all about,

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Speaker 1: what our democracy means. And if we don't do this,

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Speaker 1: if we say a president can go and in secret

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Speaker 1: try and hold up foreign aid to investigate his chief rivals,

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Speaker 1: and you know, what are we saying about our elections?

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Speaker 1: But Neil, a new NPR PBS News Our poll found

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Speaker 1: that while most Americans are paying attention to these hearings,

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Speaker 1: less than a third say or you know, around a

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Speaker 1: third say their minds could be changed. So there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who say, we don't care whatever happens,

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Speaker 1: that it's a witch hunt. You know, they've bought the

427
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 1: president's talking points and by the way. I watched Sean

428
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: Hannity last night, and it's almost as if we live

429
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: in two different countries or there are two different stories.

430
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: If you have a steady diet of Fox News, you

431
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: have a very different opinion about what's going on in

432
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 1: Washington right now. Yeah. No, Look, I my argument is

433
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: not that Sean Hannity and Laura Ingram are going to

434
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: change their minds. So you know, they've got a certain,

435
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: you know, set of incentives to say the things that

436
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: they say. I'm talking about Fox viewers, and I do

437
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: have more faith in those viewers and more generally the

438
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: viewers across the American public and listeners and and so on.

439
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: I'm not ready to give up on the idea that

440
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: we live in such two different countries that there is

441
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: no truth anymore, or that we shouldn't ask these questions

442
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: and we throw in the towel because we're worried about

443
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: a you know, splintered, hyperpartisan environment. I mean, at the

444
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 1: end of the day, every time America has transcended that

445
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: we transcended it in seventeen seventy six and seventeen eighty seven,

446
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty six and nineteen thirty seven, and the

447
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: civil rights movement, marriage equality. So many other times people

448
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: have said, Katie, the kind of stuff you're saying, and

449
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: you know, I know you're just voicing, you know, a

450
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: lot of the frustrations of a lot of people and

451
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: views of a lot of people. But there's also this

452
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: other counter tradition in American history. You know, in the book,

453
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: I talked about the Andrew Johnson impeachment, and uh, you know,

454
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 1: Johnson was a terrible president and racist and and so on,

455
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: but he was impeached not for that. He was impeached

456
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: for a violation of the tenure of office at the

457
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: technical violation. And it was a really close vote in

458
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: the Senate and Senator Ross, who hated at the Senor

459
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: Russell was from camp Us and he hated President Johnson,

460
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: but nonetheless cast the impeachment vote, the deciding vote the

461
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: other way to not impeach, because he said that's not

462
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: the right thing to do. It maybe the right thing

463
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: to do for my party, but it's not the right

464
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: thing to do for the country. And time and again

465
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: we've seen examples of that, and um, we won't know

466
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: unless we try. And um, you know, that's I'm proud

467
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: that to see our Congress trying and to force some

468
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: attention by this administration to the rule of law. Let

469
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: me ask you if you could break it down, how

470
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: many articles of impeachment are there right now? And you know,

471
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: how is this different from a criminal trial. Yeah, So

472
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: the main differences are that it's not, of course about crimes.

473
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: So so that's the first thing it's about, really, is

474
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: there an abusive power by the president. Is the president

475
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: putting his nation his personal interests above those of the nation.

476
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: That's really I think the best definition of what a

477
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: high crime and misdemeanor and that can come into sort

478
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: of shapes and forms exactly, and so here I think

479
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: they're basically kind of three buckets that of offenses when

480
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: we think about Ukraine, and you know, there may be

481
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: others involving the Moller investigation and so on. I personally

482
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: don't think Congress should get into all of that here,

483
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: but you know, because there's some indication that he might

484
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: have lied on his questionnaire exactly. The the House General

485
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: Counsel this week in the d C Court said they

486
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: believe that there may be evidence that the President lie

487
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: de Muller and that, of course is itself a criminal offense,

488
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: So there may be other things going on. We'll have

489
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: to see. Um. In terms of the process, there is

490
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: a big difference. I mean, the House does what's called impeachment,

491
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: which is like the formal indictment of the president, like

492
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: saying he did something wrong, and that is just by

493
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: a majority vote, and that's kind of like a grand

494
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 1: jury in the criminal context. And then you've got if

495
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: the House impeaches, then it goes to the Senate for

496
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: the punishment phase and uh, and the kind of trial

497
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: about what, you know, what what the president did and

498
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: is it, you know, a convictible offense. Um. And there

499
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: it's a two thirds vote of the Senate to convict.

500
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: And unlike a criminal trial in which it's a jury

501
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: of twelve peers who don't have any prejudices about the case,

502
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: this is decided by a hundred senators, many of whom

503
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: have already said certain things about their view of the case.

504
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: So it is quite different in that sense. It's a

505
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: mix of a legal proceeding and a political proceeding. Would

506
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: President Trump ever be asked to go to the Senate

507
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: to testify? Oh? Absolutely, And would he be compelled to

508
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: I think you can't formally compel him in the sense of, uh,

509
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, attached criminal sanctions to him. But you can

510
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: create an adverse inference. You can say, look, Mr President,

511
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: if you don't come forward and tell the truth, we'll

512
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: take that as an admission that these accusations against you

513
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: in these articles of impeachment are accurate. And you would

514
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: ask before about what that case would look like. What

515
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: are those articles of impeachment? And it seems to me

516
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: Article one is kind of abuse of power, the president

517
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: saying I am going to cut off congressionally appropriated aid

518
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: aida that our taxpayers approved to another country to benefit myself.

519
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: Count Number two is bribery, the idea that we were

520
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, seeking something of value for yourself in

521
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: order to exchange in order for the performance of an official,

522
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: and it would be called bribery absolutely. And indeed, one

523
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: of the interesting things, Katie, is the Constitution actually says

524
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: there are defines impeachable offenses as treason, bribery, or other

525
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: high crimes and misdemeanors. It's actually in the Constitution itself

526
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: as one of the two things our founders said was impeachable,

527
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: and cited by Alexander Hamilton as you said earlier about

528
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: a foreign exactly, is that in the Constitution too, Well,

529
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: what's in the Constitution is just the word bribery. No,

530
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: the foreign nation. What you mentioned that Alexander Hamilton's used

531
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: as an example, So it's an example of what is

532
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: an impeachable offense, but itself is not in the text

533
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: of the Constitution. Like much of the Constitution, they used

534
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: more capacious words like other high crimes and misdemeanors. And

535
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: then we have methods to try and understand what those

536
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: words are here in some of Hamilton's writings exactly. So

537
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: Hamilton's writings in the Federalist papers. Indeed, Federalist sight, I

538
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: think is the critical one. Um, they make this argument

539
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: about foreign interference, you're sure it's not and then uh,

540
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: and then the last article of impeachment. And I think

541
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: today we saw a lot of evidence of this is

542
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: obstruction of justice, the idea that the president is gagging

543
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: all these witnesses from coming forward. He's saying no documents

544
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: can come. And we started this interview, Katie, with you

545
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: asking about the Ambassador Solilon testimony it six and its significance,

546
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: and we've talked a lot about the substantial significance, like

547
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: what did Simon say about Trump and Giuliani and so on,

548
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: But there was a procedural significance to what he said today,

549
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: which is really important. He said, and again, this is

550
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: Trump's guy. He's saying, the President is acting wrongly by

551
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: not allowing me to look at my emails, not provide

552
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: them to you, not provide my call records. He's preventing

553
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: me from all of this. And that's preventing the American

554
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: people from learning the truth. And that is quintessential obstruction

555
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: of justice. And and what could happen to Rudy Giuliani.

556
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. Oh heavens me, I would not want

557
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: to be. I mean, if in fact he did all

558
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: the things he's being accused of doing in the course

559
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: of these hearings and by various witnesses, what will happen

560
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: to him? Well, so, first of all, it's not just

561
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: what he's being accused of in the hearings, which are

562
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: about you know, this part of Ukraine and Barisma and

563
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: all that. There's a separate criminal investigation in the Southern

564
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: District of New York, his former office that he used

565
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: to head, about whether or not he committed various cribes,

566
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, we don't know exactly what they are, um,

567
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: but you know, so he's facing legal liability there. Separately,

568
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: now he's got a bunch to worry about here, um,

569
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: with respect to the Ukrainian foreign aid scandal and so on.

570
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that there's a deep question

571
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: here whether Giuliani is going to say, oh, I did

572
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: this all on my own. Trump wasn't involved, hoping perhaps

573
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: for a pardon or something like that, or he's going

574
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: to say, hey, I wasn't a rogue agent here. I

575
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: was doing all of this at the President's best, which

576
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: Mr Salmon today I think suggested was the truth. And

577
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: is Roger Stone going to be pardoned? Who knows? Um?

578
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: I would think so. I would think that a president,

579
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: when there was that mountain of evidence from his own

580
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: Justice Department to convict Rogers own, any decent president could

581
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: not impeach, it could not pardon Roger Stone. But this

582
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 1: is a president who pardoned Joe R. Pio, who pardoned

583
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: a niche to Suza, who pardoned three war criminals just

584
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: last week against the advice of his own Defense department.

585
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: So anything goes with respect to this guy. And his

586
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: abuse of the pardon power. You made the case that

587
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: President Trump's efforts to hinder the House investigation is as

588
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: much of a threat to the rule of law as

589
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: the case against him, and that it quote strikes at

590
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: the heart of American democracy. Explain that, yes, I wrote it.

591
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: I've be in the New York Times last week, which said, look,

592
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: we're gonna obviously all focus on these witnesses and what

593
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: what happened with respect to Ukraine. But there is a

594
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: kind of more fundamental thing. And you know, I saw

595
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: it in two different tours in the government, which is

596
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: when the Congress of the United States asks you, how

597
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: are you doing your job? Why did you take certain

598
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: actions and the like? You know, that's a sovereign and

599
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: solemn obligation for you to go and explain what you

600
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: did to the people. Uh. And this president has thumbed

601
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: his nose at Congress, has said it's so illegitimate that

602
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: he won't even bother turning over a single piece of

603
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: paper or a single witness. Um. And again I asked

604
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: to go back to that kind of yardstick rule shoe.

605
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: On the other foot, if this were a democratic president,

606
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 1: how would the Republican senators and congresswoman and men feel

607
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: about someone who stime me that. I mean even at

608
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: the worst, you know, an air culture was accused of,

609
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: you know, in Fast and Furious of various things. But

610
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: he turned over thousands and thousands of pages of material.

611
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: That was the only time President Obama invoked executive privilege

612
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: and his time in office. This president, you know, invokes

613
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: it kind of like candy, you know, whenever and does

614
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: it wantonly um and uh, you know, you'd have to

615
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: go back to Nixon, to someone who did it with

616
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: any frequency approaching approaching this president. But this president has

617
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: done that and squared it many many times over. Do

618
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: you see anyway the impeachment hearings Neil could help the president,

619
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: could galvanize his base and that people might buy in

620
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: the idea that he's being unfairly targeted. And note that

621
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: these people never thought his election was legitimate. YadA, YadA, YadA.

622
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: I think that's Katie, with all respect, the wrong question.

623
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: I don't think we can do this because of politics.

624
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: I think we have to do this, and I think

625
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: this is where the Congress of the House is moving

626
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: because there is no other option when you have a

627
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: president who betrays the nation's interest and tries to do

628
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: in secret, and then gets caught and then doesn't even

629
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 1: admit to it and says he'd do it again, he'd

630
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: do it with China. You've got a president who's a fundamental,

631
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 1: existential threat to the rule of law, to everything the

632
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: country is built on. And if you lose elections over it,

633
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: so be it. Lose the election, because there's something far

634
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: greater at stake here, which is the operation and soul

635
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: of American democracy. You're a purist, but I would say

636
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: that there are plenty of Democrats in the House who

637
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: really weighed the political ramifications of this pretty long and hard. Neil, Sure, No,

638
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: I am not. I'm not denying any of that. And

639
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,439
Speaker 1: you know, maybe that it's not bad politics for them

640
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: or good politics or whatever. I'm just saying, you know,

641
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: is some things have to rise above politics. And as

642
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: your listeners think about, you know, how do we think

643
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: about this question that we're about to embark in as

644
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: a nation over the next two months, what should we

645
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: do about the president? I think they have to ask,

646
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 1: you know, do they really want a system in which

647
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: a president can do this and put the politics aside

648
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: At least try to. It's, if nothing else, a thought experiment, because, Um,

649
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: the shoe will be on the other. Life is long

650
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: and the country hopefully has many, many years ahead. And

651
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: if we allow this president to do this, another president

652
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 1: can do it, and that president may not be one

653
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: that you politically agree with. I know, I'm asking you

654
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: to speculate, and that's something that current and former government

655
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: officials hate to do. Colin values to always tell me, Katie,

656
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: I will not speculate on that, but can you give

657
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: us an idea of the timeline and what ultimately you

658
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: think is going to happen? Neil, sure. So I'm not

659
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: afraid to speculate here. So I wrote a whole book

660
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: that's about this. Um and Uh. I think that by

661
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: the end of December. By December, I suspect we'll have

662
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: a vote in the House of Representatives and Merry Christmas.

663
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: And I do think that the president will be impeached

664
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: and representatives. It will then go to a trial in

665
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: the Senate in January. And January, you know, I think

666
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: the Senate rules require kind of an immediate trial to

667
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: move quickly. It required them to be I think in

668
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: session six days a week. UM and you know, some senators,

669
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: Republican senators have said it maybe as long as six

670
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: to eight weeks. I'm not sure that that's right. I

671
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: think it's probably the House has already taken a lot

672
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: of testimony, so I'm not sure that it will be

673
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: that long. But I again, I hope that it's a

674
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: thorough serious trial that everyone can see exactly what happened,

675
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: because the president's story has been shifting while this has

676
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: been going on in the House of Representatives and in

677
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: the early stages in the investigation. I mean, first it

678
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: was I didn't do it. Then it was it's all

679
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: perfect and beautiful. Then it was no, it's all hearsay,

680
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: and you know, there's no firsthand witnesses. Now that the

681
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: first hand witnesses have come forward, we're back to it's

682
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: beautiful and perfect. Um. And I don't really know that

683
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: guy som Blander whomever. So there's been a bunch of

684
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: shifting stories, um. And once it goes to trial in

685
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: the Senate, I suspect that they're gonna have to drill

686
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: down and pick one. And at that point, I do

687
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: think the eyes of the nation focus on the question.

688
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: The eyes in the Senate, they look at themselves in

689
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: the mirror and say what's the right thing to do here?

690
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: And I think that the president will be removed from office?

691
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: Do wow? So you think he'll be gone and Mike

692
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: Pence will run for president? I I don't know, but

693
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: you know you know that very well. Maybe or maybe

694
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: they have something else. Wow, Well, fasten your seatbelt. Do

695
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: you ever wish that you had waited to write your

696
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: book and impeach the case against Donald Trump? Since there's

697
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: so much happened since you I'm sure handed this in

698
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,919
Speaker 1: no actually their verse. I mean I wrote the book

699
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: because I knew a lot was going to happen. I

700
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 1: knew there'd be all these witnesses coming forward, and I

701
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that Trump does, and

702
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: you actually started today's session by talking about it, is

703
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 1: the flood of information that happens. And it's so hard

704
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: to separate the wheat from the chaff, and remember what's important.

705
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: In the book, it's just a hundred fifty pages is

706
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: just designed to say, here's the central narrative. And yes,

707
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: there's going to be any number of details and people

708
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: saying this and that and taking pot shots at each other,

709
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: but here's the central narrative. That central narrative is not

710
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: going to change. Like you know I've done. I've argued

711
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: thirty nine cases at the Supreme Court and one hundreds

712
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: of other cases. You know, in a case and the

713
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: basics architecture of the case is done. That basic architecture

714
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: the case is done now and that's what the book

715
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: lays out. And go back to those three articles of impeachment,

716
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 1: high crimes and misdemeanors in the Constitution, abuse of power, bribery,

717
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 1: and obstruction of justice. Neo Cartiel, Neil, thanks so much

718
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: for helping us understand all this and make some sense

719
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: of it. Thank you. It's an honor to be with you.

720
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: Not everyone agrees with Neo Cartiel. Up next, we're going

721
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: to have a conversation with a vocal critic of the

722
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: impeachment inquiry, former Independent Council Robert Ray. Robert Ray made

723
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: a name for himself leading the Whitewater investigation as the

724
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: former head of the Office of the Independent Council. He

725
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,919
Speaker 1: recently wrote a piece for Time magazine arguing that while

726
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: President Trump may have acted inappropriately, his actions do not

727
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: meet the constitution strict requirements for impeachment, which say that treason, briberary,

728
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 1: or other high crimes and misdemeanors need to be proven

729
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: in order to remove a president from office. Robert Ray,

730
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming on the podcast so

731
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: your predecessor as Independent Council can start. Described today's testimony

732
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: as quote one of those bombshell days and said that

733
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: quote things do not look it for the president substantively.

734
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: What do you think, Bob Well, I don't agree with that. Um.

735
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: I've dealt with media days throughout this saga for more

736
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: than the past two months, where every day is another

737
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 1: bombshell day. So I don't think there was really anything

738
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: that I heard today that was that much of a

739
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: surprise and what I had anticipated that we would hear.

740
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: His testimony, though, did confirm a quid pro quo. Right, well,

741
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 1: let's be careful about that, because you know, first of all,

742
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: I'm you know, the Hoorray Henry's who all want to

743
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: talk about quid pro quo as if they seem to

744
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: understand what bribery is. Let's just slow down. A second.

745
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: Bribery is something like the following, whoever, being a public official,

746
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: corruptly demands or seeks personally in return for the performance

747
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: of an official act is guilty of a crime, and

748
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: the in return for a language essentially is what people

749
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: understand to be the quid pro quo requirement of a

750
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: bribery offense. But that's not what we talk about and

751
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: what much of the discussion has been about. I mean,

752
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: for example, if there's an exchange of a quid pro

753
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: quo involving foreign assistance generally, and the linkage is over

754
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: something as benign as we want a particular country to

755
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: do more with regard to internally prosecuting or investigating corruption,

756
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: nobody would ever contend that that kind of an exchange

757
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: is something that the law is prepared to recognize as illegal.

758
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 1: But it doesn't it change when it's a political rival, Bob,

759
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: when it's specifically about Joe Biden and his son. And

760
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: according to son Land, Hello, that's not what Ambassador Sonland

761
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: testified to today. What his understanding is that it was

762
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: barisma and the origins of the two thousand and sixteen

763
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: election interference. He only came to learn, I think, he said,

764
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: and not until after the transcript of the call was

765
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: released between President Zelinsky and President Trump that uh, you know,

766
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: in his mind, he then came to a presumption that

767
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 1: there was a linkage between the two involving specifically the Bidens.

768
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: So you know, look, I think much of how you

769
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: would view this is colored by whether or not you

770
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: think there's any merit to an investigation of the Biden's

771
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: first second, I think it's colored by what your view

772
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: is about whether or not such an investigation is of

773
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: personal benefit to the president that would be sufficient to

774
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: um make out a crime. The Democrats have tried that

775
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: on for size. They first contended that that was an

776
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 1: illegal foreign campaign contribution. Well, that's an interesting legal theory,

777
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: but it runs up against the fact that the Justice Department,

778
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: apparently through the Criminal Division, after consultation with the Public

779
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 1: Integrity Section, said listen, that's not a thing of value

780
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: that the law is prepared to recognize as a campaign

781
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 1: contribution that would be of personal benefit to the president

782
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 1: United States, meaning an investigation into Hunter Biden and Barrisma. Right. Look,

783
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: and you know, the notion that a public official is,

784
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: as a result of running for office or being a candidate,

785
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: immune from uh an investigation is in my judgment, anathemas

786
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: and consistent with with our past history, and it's even

787
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: inconsistent with my own past history. I conducted an investigation

788
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: of Hillary Clinton, who was then at the time while

789
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: I was serving as Independent Council being investigated in connection

790
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: with a whole slew of investigations Whitewater, the Travel Office,

791
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: FBI files, a number of things, while she was a

792
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: candidate for office for the United States Senate in New York.

793
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: So are you suggesting that Joe Biden did something wrong here?

794
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: I don't and and it was in your estimation it's

795
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: worthy of an investigation. I don't know. I mean, apparently

796
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: the Attorney General has thought at least so that matter

797
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: has been referred, among a number of different specific issues

798
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: to John Durham, who is the currently serving U S

799
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,439
Speaker 1: Attorney in the District of Connecticut. He enjoys a bipartisan

800
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: reputation as a kind a fine one as a bipartisan,

801
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: nonpartisan prosecute career prosecutor. I don't know whether that investigation

802
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: has any merit or not. I imagine he'll figure it

803
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 1: out one way or another. That's why we have investigations

804
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: to find out. I I wonder if you believe that

805
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: Ambassador Solon's claimed that the President was seemed to be

806
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: more interested in the announcement of an investigation rather than

807
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: the investigation itself, might sort of counter this assessment that

808
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: it wouldn't he wouldn't stand to gain from that in estigation.

809
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 1: Ambassador Simon made very clear, although that was completely overlooked

810
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 1: in the testimony today, that the primary reason to ask

811
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: for a public announcement was to fix their position publicly

812
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: so that they couldn't walk back the fact that they

813
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: were committed to rooting out corruption. I think that's separate

814
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: and apart from whether or not you think that's also

815
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: of personal benefit to the president, because of the fact

816
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: that it would have potentially had an impact on an election.

817
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: Everything has an impact on an election. The question is

818
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: whether there is anything inappropriate about that ask and I

819
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: have already commented publicly and I think, um, this is

820
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: where I do agree with Ken Starr. I do think

821
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: it was an error in judgment not to have done

822
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 1: this through the usual channels. Why Because the usual channels

823
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: provide you with insulation in the ordinary affairs of the

824
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: country where people don't second yes your political motivations, and

825
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: so one of the reasons that you'd go to the

826
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: FBI and the Justice Department and also admit what there's

827
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: already a treaty process to allow a request to the

828
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: Ukrainian government through official channels for what's referred to as

829
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty. That's the kind of appropriate

830
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: way in which you would be seeking in a sensitive

831
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: area assistance with an investigation. So I guess what I'm

832
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: saying is that, you know, it's hard for me to

833
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: imagine that the president does something directly that if he

834
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: did indirectly through usual channels, it certainly would be entirely appropriate.

835
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: But now all of a sudden it's illegal. You can

836
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: argue about a lack of judgment and whether or not

837
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 1: it would have been better practice and a better idea

838
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,720
Speaker 1: not to have had what amounts to a second channel

839
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: through Rudy Giuliani to try to accomplish this end. But

840
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I would jump to the conclusion

841
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: that the end in itself was inappropriate. I think the

842
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: means are subject to question, but that doesn't mean that

843
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: the means were illegal. But having said that, I mean

844
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: it was in your view and error in judgment, but

845
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: does not necessarily qualified as a high crime or misdemeanor.

846
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it qualifies as bribery either. I don't

847
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: think it. I don't think it involves extortion because I

848
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: don't think there was sufficient pressure applied. What about abuse

849
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: of power, Well, abuse of power is an interesting concept,

850
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: and I know you've talked to about that. I do

851
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: not think that abuse of power untethered from the constitutional language,

852
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: which requires that it be treason, bribery, or other high

853
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: crime and misdemeanor, is sufficient. I know there's reasonable disagreement

854
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: of opinion among legal scholars about that. I think. I mean,

855
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: I've read a lot of books. I've considered the question

856
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: of impeachment, going all the way back to Watergate and

857
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: historically even before um I think the better, more considered view.

858
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: And by the way, this was Neil cat y'all's view

859
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 1: and a Chiel Lamar and a number of other people

860
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: when they were trying on for size of the question

861
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: of the Clinton impeachment. I do not think abuse of

862
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: power on its own as a sufficient basis to remove

863
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 1: a president from office. I think it has to be both.

864
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: I think the lesson of the Clinton impeachment was very

865
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: few people were arguing over whether or not the president

866
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: had committed obstruction of justice or perjury. The only question

867
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: was whether or not those crimes were sufficient to rise

868
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: to the level of abuse of his office, abuse of

869
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: his oath of office. And I think the considered judgment

870
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: of the Senate following a trial was, you know what, Um,

871
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: there's a problem here, but it's not sufficient to remove

872
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: the president from office because he didn't abuse his office

873
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: this one. Um. You know, I sort of stepped back

874
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: and just look at it. And the Nixon cases, of

875
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: course entirely different because there I think it was clearly both.

876
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: It was not only that obstruction of justice was committed,

877
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: but it was committed in such a way that undermined

878
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: the president's oath of office to take care that the

879
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,439
Speaker 1: laws be faithfully executed. And there was a slush fund

880
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: in the White House with cash coming out of a

881
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: safe in order to pay off witnesses to ultra testimony

882
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: in connection with an ongoing criminal investigation that the president orchestrated,

883
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 1: and he was on tape directing it. And everybody can

884
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: understand it appreciate that that's not only a crime, but

885
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: it's also a problem for a president to be involved in.

886
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything like that here. I mean,

887
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: are we seriously and I'm asking the American people this,

888
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: are we seriously going to impeach a president based upon

889
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: today's testimony about the announcement of an investigation tied to

890
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: a meeting at the White House, I really think tied

891
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: to foreign aid. Well, let's start with where they started today,

892
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: because the only thing Sonlon was able to say for

893
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: Ambassador son was able to say for sure is that

894
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: the link that he saw was with a meeting at

895
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: the White House, despite what you hear in much of

896
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 1: the media, and meeting at the White House as recently

897
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: as the Supreme Court's decision involving Governor McDonald is not

898
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: an official act under the bribery law, so that can't

899
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: be the predicate for a bribery offense. And I believe

900
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 1: Adam Schiff recognizes this because all before these hearings even started,

901
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: he was already saying, you know, we don't have to

902
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: prove the elements of a bribery offense like a prosecu

903
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: puter would bribery. It only has to be as the

904
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: founders understood it. Well, okay, fair enough, but bribery is mentioned,

905
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: and the founders did put in place a Congress which

906
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: was capable of passing laws, and among the other laws

907
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: that the Congress ultimately passed was the Federal Bribery Statute.

908
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: So there's no bribery with regard to a meeting in

909
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: the White House. Don't believe me, but that that's what

910
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court says. So what about foreign aid? I mean,

911
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: maybe Somlon didn't say that he saw no connection, but

912
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: a lot of the other witnesses have said that, and

913
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,720
Speaker 1: more witnesses are to come. Well, he said, So if

914
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: if in fact someone says, uh, there was an undeniable

915
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: link between an investigation of Hunter Biden and the delivery

916
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: of foreign aid to Ukraine, would that constitute bribery? Well,

917
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: no one is going to say that. And more importantly,

918
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: I'm not really interested in what other people have to say.

919
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: This is not an impeachment of an administration. This is,

920
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 1: after all, the impeachment of the President of United States. Said,

921
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. The question is

922
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: where does the president thing? And today you know, again

923
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: something skipped over. You know, largely the President was asked

924
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: directly by Ambassador Sunlin in no uncertain terms and emphatically,

925
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: because I think he was exasperated more than anything else

926
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: Mr President, what do you want? And the answer was,

927
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: I don't want anything from President Zelinsky. I want him

928
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: to do what it is he ran on and I

929
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: and I don't want any quid pro quotes. I'm not

930
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: asking him for anything. I'm asking him to do what

931
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: he said he was going to do. So. Look, I

932
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: do not think that investigations generally, including one's conducted overseas,

933
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: and including one's conducted overseas of United States nationals, which

934
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: by the way, is something that we do do. Um.

935
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: I have represented clients that have been on the receiving

936
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: end of that, so I know, UM, there's nothing inherently

937
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: wrong with that. That's you know, that's part of what

938
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: investigations are all about. I do not think that that notion,

939
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: and specifically what you're suggesting, which is the personal benefit

940
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: to the president of a politically motivated investigation of the bidens,

941
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: are mutually exclusive. I mean, the sense in the in

942
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 1: the in the in the country right now is it

943
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: it's either a legitimate investigation or it's this thing involving

944
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: the Biden's barisma and corruption in the Ukraine, and the

945
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: one is unlawful. It's a foreign campaign contribution and it's

946
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 1: the basis of a quid pro quo, and the other

947
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 1: one is entirely appropriate. I don't think life doesn't work

948
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 1: that way. They are not They are not mutually exclusive.

949
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 1: There is space enough for there to be. Again, depending

950
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: on how what your view is about whether or not

951
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: either Hunter Biden and or his his father, that then

952
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: vice president did anything wrong. And again I'm not suggesting

953
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: he did or he didn't. I don't know. That's why

954
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: we have investigations to find that, and in fact, we

955
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: are having one right now. That's what's going on. So

956
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: you basically don't believe when it comes to the specific

957
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 1: articles of impeachment that Neil identified, abuse of power, bribery,

958
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 1: and obstruction of justice, that you can check off any

959
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: of those. And if not, why not obstruction of justice? Bob.

960
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: If in fact President Trump is prohibiting many people from

961
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: testifying in the House hearings, well that's a process, fell

962
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 1: and I guess ultimately, you know, the American people will

963
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: decide whether they think that's significantly What do you think.

964
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 1: I don't think so, And I think you know, look,

965
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: if there are legitimate reasons and basses to object to

966
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: cooperating with the investigation that include the assertion of presidential

967
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: or executive privilege. I know that they tried this in

968
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: the Nixon impeachment. It wasn't particularly persuasive, nor was it,

969
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: frankly in the in the Clinton impeachment. UM, that's a

970
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: process argument and dispute between the branches of government. To

971
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: equate that with obstruction of justice seems to me to

972
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: be a bridge too far. Um, they're a legit him

973
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: reasons why you would object to uh subpoena compliance, both

974
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: for documents and for witnesses to protect the office of

975
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:12,280
Speaker 1: the president, not the president, you know, Donald Trump personally himself,

976
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 1: not only for this administration, for administrations in the future. Uh.

977
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 1: That has been consistently the position of the White House,

978
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: not again, not just with regard to this administration, but

979
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: for administrations going back at least as far as President Eisenhower. UM. Uh,

980
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, I I don't think that UH an attempt

981
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: to try to make that argument, you know, Adam Shifts.

982
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: UH typical approach to this has been every time the

983
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: White House objects to providing us with a document or

984
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: a witness, we're going to just add that as another

985
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: article of impeachment under obstruction it doesn't wash with me.

986
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: I don't think it will wash with the American people.

987
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: And more importantly, in this process, if you have any

988
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: hopes of trying to persuade the other party to join

989
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: with you, which after all, is necessary in order to

990
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 1: remove the president from office in the United States Senate,

991
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: you're not going to get there by making an argument.

992
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: Ah ha, we got you on obstruction of justice. You

993
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 1: didn't give us that document from the State Department. You know, Please,

994
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 1: we got more important things to worry about. That's not

995
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: one of them. But what about prohibiting witnesses from testifying.

996
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: I mean, we're not talking about handing over documents. We're

997
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: talking about saying to people you cannot appear well. Sure,

998
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: And and the reason for that is because the internal

999
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: discussions at the highest level within the White House are

1000
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: subject to privilege. And it has long been recognized to

1001
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: be the case. Uh, it's implied essentially in the Constitution

1002
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: by virtue of separation of powers. And the President has

1003
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: no obligation to try to make the House's case for

1004
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: impeachment against him. He has constitutional rights as well, in

1005
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: addition to the fact of his office. And I do

1006
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: think that again, pushing that too far is encroaching on

1007
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: an area that is long recognized to be a proper

1008
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: separation of powers question. And and the related notion that

1009
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 1: has expressed most recently by the Speaker of the House,

1010
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi, that the president has some obligation to come

1011
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: forward and testify or explain or provide his people. Um again, Um,

1012
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: that's that there's nothing in the constitution that requires that.

1013
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: I don't think that's in the public interest. And again,

1014
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: I think that the president is entitled to rely on

1015
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: AIDS without having to worry about the fact that all

1016
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 1: of those people are going to appear to testify against

1017
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: him because the Congress is conducting an impeachment inquiry. And

1018
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: if we really have reached the point in this country

1019
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: for the future, which is one of the things that

1020
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about, that it simply as the result of

1021
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: having the House of Representatives in the UH in the

1022
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 1: hands of the opposite party, that we're going to now

1023
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: be endlessly in a situation in which every administration is

1024
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: going to be saddled with the potential of an impeachment inquiry.

1025
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: I do not think ultimately that that is in the

1026
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 1: country's best interests. I don't think that that's what the

1027
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: founders intended, and the you know, recent history suggests now

1028
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: that we sort of string together, you know, Nixon to

1029
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: Clinton to Trump. You know, the question one has to

1030
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: logically ask, and I think most fair minded Americans will

1031
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: be asking when this when and if this gets to

1032
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 1: the United States Senate is ultimately is that what we

1033
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 1: want to see here? Is that really in the country's interests?

1034
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: And I've even thought about things like, you know, I

1035
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: wonder for the future whether or not a simple majority

1036
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 1: vote in the House should be sufficient to warrant the

1037
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: impeachment of a president. I mean, I think there perhaps

1038
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: should be some serious question that a bipartisan vote be

1039
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 1: required in the House before it ever gets to the Senate.

1040
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 1: Not suggesting that it would be a two thirds majority,

1041
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: but when you know, I think could think seriously about

1042
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: whether or not it's in the country's interests with the

1043
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 1: future to prevent just this sort of thing from happening,

1044
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: that rather than fifty be required, which would would mandate

1045
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: in effect, that you would have to have, in an

1046
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: example like this one, not only all Democrats in favor

1047
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: of impeachment, but you'd have to have bipartisan support, meaning

1048
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: some Republicans to join along with it. So you think

1049
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 1: there's m legitimacy to President Trump's contention, this is a

1050
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: kangaroo court. He's kind of dismissed the whole process. He said,

1051
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: you know, on Fox News they say it's a shift show.

1052
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: You know, look, I hear all that. I've been on

1053
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: Fox News. I'm a regular guest. Um, I do not

1054
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: think it helps anybody or our institutions in the country's

1055
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: best interest to be disparaging the mission of the House

1056
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 1: of Representatives. I don't and I won't do it. Um.

1057
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: You know they have a tough job to do. Are

1058
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: is there partisan excess on both sides? Sure? Did anybody

1059
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: think that that wouldn't be the case? Go all the

1060
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: way back to Alexander Hamilton's He certainly recognized that this

1061
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 1: would inflame partisan passions on both sides as the result

1062
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: of impeachment, particularly involving a president, which is why the

1063
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 1: protection was built in that it would require two thirds

1064
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: in the Senate to actually remove a president from office

1065
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: and overturn an election. Whow it is you know under

1066
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 1: liably true that a president is subject to impeachment all

1067
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 1: during his term in office. This obviously was intended by

1068
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: the founders to be an extraordinary thing and and reserved

1069
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: for the most extreme situations. My view is that there's

1070
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: not ever going to be given these facts unless something

1071
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: magically changes, clear and unmistakable evidence of both a crime

1072
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 1: that fits the definition of trees and bribery or other

1073
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: high crimes and misdemeanors, and uh one sufficient enough that

1074
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: it constitutes abuse of the president's office. And I do

1075
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: firmly believe, based upon history and practice and frankly good

1076
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: common sense, which was ultimately where the American people are

1077
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: going to weigh in here, I think that unless you

1078
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: have both, that's not sufficient to warrant the removal of

1079
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 1: a president from office. I think that's the considered judgment

1080
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: of history and the idea that someone put forth in

1081
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 1: his testament me that everyone was in the loop, from

1082
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 1: Mike Pence to Mike Pompeo. UM, not that significant in

1083
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: your view, Well, I don't. I don't know what in

1084
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: the loop. I listened to it carefully to see what

1085
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: exactly do you mean by in the loop and how

1086
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: much knowledge did they really have. I think that it

1087
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 1: is a reflection of the fact that Ambassador Sondling thought,

1088
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 1: based upon the direction given by the President that this contention,

1089
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 1: which is frankly contrary to what you heard the day before,

1090
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 1: UM from Lieutenant Colonel vinman Um. You know, when the

1091
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: President directs that wants something done, UM, that makes it

1092
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: not an outside channel. That is the President's prerogative to

1093
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 1: choose the channel that he would like in order to

1094
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: troll accomplish what it is he's trying to accomplish. Frankly,

1095
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 1: what I thought I saw here was the President was

1096
01:02:54,720 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 1: prepared to temporarily withhold foreign aid to see what the

1097
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: Ukrainians would do. He didn't make a demand that they

1098
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 1: commence investigations in exchange for that aid. That's not the

1099
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: tenor of the call, which is going to be ultimately

1100
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 1: the best, probably the only real evidence of the President's intent,

1101
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: other than the limited color that UM Ambassador Sonlon was

1102
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: able to add today, I don't think you're going to

1103
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 1: hear from anybody else. I think to answer your question, yes,

1104
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: would there be potential benefit to hear from UM, the

1105
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 1: Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, UM, from the from the

1106
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: Acting Chief of Staff McK mulvaaney, and potentially other people

1107
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani among them. Sure, but I think there's understandably

1108
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: a concern that the President is asserting, and I think

1109
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: in most situations that should be respected. That unless you're

1110
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: prepared to say that these people were co conspirators in

1111
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 1: connection with the illegal activity, which I don't think you're

1112
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: gonna hear anybody say. No, one's gonna stand up and

1113
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: then say, you know, I was involved in a in

1114
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: a corrupt bargain here, and I was a co conspirator,

1115
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: and now let me tell you what it is I

1116
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: did and what the president thought. That's the difference between, frankly,

1117
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: this case and the impeachment of Richard Nixon. No one's

1118
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 1: going to say, oh, yeah, I was, Yep, I was.

1119
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: We were all we were all involved, and we were

1120
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: all involved in a conspiracy to commit bribery. You're not

1121
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: going to hear that. You're not going to hear an

1122
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:19,680
Speaker 1: acknowledgment that they thought that what they were doing was illegal,

1123
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 1: because I don't think they thought what they were doing

1124
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 1: was illegal. Do you believe that any Republican senators will

1125
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: change their minds after today's testimony or do you think

1126
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 1: they'll still feel supportive of the President minus the two

1127
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 1: who seemed to be wobbily or have said otherwise. I

1128
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: think to be careful, honestly, you don't know right until

1129
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: after both there's a vote in the House and you

1130
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 1: see what the partisan lineup looks like. I expect I

1131
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: think the import of your question is I expect that

1132
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: it will be probably entirely along party lines. I think

1133
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 1: that will send a message to the Senate, which is

1134
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 1: likely to have a rejoinder that is going to be

1135
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: equally partisan the other way. So I guess that's a

1136
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: sort of a roundabout way of answering your question. At

1137
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: least at the moment. I don't expect that that's going

1138
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 1: to change the result. And I think what that will mean,

1139
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: um is that it will it will it will not

1140
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 1: succeed in the Senate. I guess the only question is

1141
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: how long and painful will that process be? Will there

1142
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 1: be a full trial? I mean, this is different then

1143
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: our most recent history, which is the Clinton impeachment. In

1144
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 1: this situation, the president's party is in control of the

1145
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: United States Senate, so they they they set the rules,

1146
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: and they determine how much of a proceeding there there

1147
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 1: will be. They may I have suggested that if if

1148
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: really uh, this should be short circuited because it doesn't

1149
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 1: have merit, that it would be appropriate to consider emotion

1150
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 1: to dismiss, which could be And I understand that there

1151
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: are political consequences to this, particularly among Republicans in districts

1152
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: where or I'm sorry, in states where they're for re

1153
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: election this year. UM. I can think of a few

1154
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 1: of them that would be vulnerable to a process that

1155
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: was arguably curtailed in the Senate. But I mean it,

1156
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 1: certainly it was. There was a moment put it this way.

1157
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:13,440
Speaker 1: There was a motion filed during the Clinton impeachment to dismiss.

1158
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: It was denied. This situation is different because Republicans control

1159
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: the president's party control the United States Senate, and so

1160
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 1: if they have a majority vote UM plus in the

1161
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 1: event of a tie the vice president of vote, they

1162
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: can they can move to dismiss for indefinitely adjourned the proceedings.

1163
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: And do you think that might happen? I think that's

1164
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 1: a politically dicey thing. I think the safer course is

1165
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 1: probably to allow there to be a trial, uh and

1166
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 1: and for the members to give considered judgment to the question.

1167
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: I think most people want to appear to their constituents

1168
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 1: as having carefully considered this to the extent that you

1169
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: were to short circuited. I suppose there would be a

1170
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 1: reasonable argument about you're not taking it seriously, and so

1171
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: a backlash from Democratic opponents and upcoming elections from Democrats,

1172
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: from voters, and you know, look, we're undeniably we're in

1173
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: an election year now, right and a third of the

1174
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 1: Senator is up. So that's obviously something that they have

1175
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: to keep an eye on. And that brings me to

1176
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 1: my final question, what impact do you think, Bob, this

1177
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: will have on Could this embolden the president, helped him

1178
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 1: in fact get re elected if it is a long

1179
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 1: party lines, or do you think that people will think

1180
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:29,360
Speaker 1: he just behaved, there was a serious error in judgment

1181
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 1: and his actions were questionable at at the very least.

1182
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 1: I don't know too many things. But what I do

1183
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: know from having a review the history of all of

1184
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 1: the impeachments is that they have consequence, whether intended or unintended,

1185
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 1: and sometimes those consequences can be quite severe. We really

1186
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: don't know how the electorate will view this at the

1187
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 1: end of the day. I think there's a reasonable question

1188
01:07:57,240 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 1: as a result of so much of what has surface.

1189
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 1: Whatever you think the merit of it is, is that

1190
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: I think already this is seriously damaged the Vice president's

1191
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: prospects to become the nominee for the Democratic Party. I

1192
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: don't think you can really argue to the contrary. Do

1193
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: you think it's that or do you think there are

1194
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,879
Speaker 1: other factors? There may be, There may be other factors.

1195
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 1: And of course we ultimately don't know if he became

1196
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 1: the nominee, how what the long you know, run effect

1197
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 1: of that would be all the way through November of

1198
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:27,839
Speaker 1: next year. We also don't even know in the primary process,

1199
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,479
Speaker 1: you know, how this will play out. I suppose it

1200
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 1: depends on how this plays out before the United States Senate,

1201
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 1: presumably in January of next year. The short answer is

1202
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 1: one of the dangers of impeachment is that you go

1203
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 1: down this road you never really know where it leads.

1204
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I the fall out of the Clinton impeachment,

1205
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. There was an intended or unintended consequences

1206
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:51,879
Speaker 1: that I think that probably cost al Gore the election

1207
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 1: against George W. Bush. You know, you can talk about

1208
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 1: whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but

1209
01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 1: that was one of the consequences I think of impeachment.

1210
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 1: Were there other factors, sure, but I don't think that

1211
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: that was an insubstantial factor. I think that was a

1212
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: significant effect. I don't know that that would have been

1213
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 1: anticipated at the time of impeachment. Only you would only

1214
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: know that with the benefit of history. And I think

1215
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 1: the same will be true here. We're not really going

1216
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 1: to know all of the consequences of an impeachment until

1217
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:25,680
Speaker 1: probably years later. One thing is certain. Only time will tell, right,

1218
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 1: Like a lot of things in life, But this is

1219
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:30,400
Speaker 1: a big one, right, this is a big one. Well,

1220
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: it's really interesting to get your perspective, Bob Ray, Thank

1221
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: you so much for stopping by. Thanks very us pleasure. Yeah,

1222
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 1: nice to see you. Nice to meet you. Same here.

1223
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: Thanks so much everyone for listening to this episode of

1224
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 1: Next Question. We hope we've provided you with some information

1225
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 1: in some context so you can better understand what's going

1226
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 1: on these days on Capitol Hill with the impeachment hearings

1227
01:09:56,160 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 1: and what constitutes or doesn't high crime and misdemeanors. If

1228
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 1: you'd like to know what's happening every morning and have

1229
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:09,719
Speaker 1: some original content in the form of interviews, and inspiring stories.

1230
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1231
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1232
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1233
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:25,160
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1234
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:28,760
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1235
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:32,400
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1236
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:36,679
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1237
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:40,679
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1238
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 1: Editing is by Dylan Fagin, Derrek Clements, and Lowell Berlante.

1239
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:49,120
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01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:51,320
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