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We believe in nurturing and energizing your body 18 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: while enjoying a truly delicious and refreshing drink. So visit 19 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: Drinkjuni dot com today to elevate your wellness journey and 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: use code on Purpose to receive fifteen percent off your 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: first order. That's drink Juni dot com and make sure 22 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: you use the code on purpose. 23 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: Narcissistic people are attracted to people who will give them 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: supply physical attractiveness, status, praise. So you just being a 25 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: nice person and praising someone could actually be what makes 26 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: you attractive to them. So people may think, well, those 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: I mean I have to start being me. I'd say no. 28 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: They may be attracted to you, and you may be 29 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: compelled for a minute, but the key is then to 30 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: know how to get off the carousel before it starts 31 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: going too fast. 32 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite 33 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: you to join this community to hear more interviews that 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: will help you become happier, health and more healed. All 35 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. 36 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your 37 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to 38 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: go on this journey with you. Thank you so much 39 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: for subscribing. It means the world to Me, the number 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: one health and wellness podcast, Jay Sheety Jay Shetty Sadly. Hey, everyone, 41 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: welcome back to on Purpose, the place that makes you happier, healthier, 42 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorites, 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: someone that you've been wanting to have back on and 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: a dear friend of mine, So I always get really 45 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: excited when she's in the chair opposite me. Someone who's 46 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: great at defining terms that we throw around in culture, 47 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: defining those buzzwords, really understanding deeply how they impact our 48 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: lives and how we can navigate the challenges that come 49 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: with them. I'm talking about the one and only Dr Rahmany, 50 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: a licensed clinical psychologist, Professor of Psychology at California State 51 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: University of Los Angeles, and the founder and CEO of 52 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: Lunar Education, Training and Consulting. Dr Romaney discusses narcissism on 53 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: her popular YouTube channel on social media as at Dr Romie. 54 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: If you don't follow her already, make sure you go 55 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: and do that. Her popular online program on healing from 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse, and as the host of the podcast Navigating Narcissism. 57 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: Her new book is called It's Not You, Identifying and 58 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: healing from narcissistic people. Go and grab a copy of 59 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,399 Speaker 1: this book right now. If this is something that you've 60 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: been dealing with, if you have a friend or a 61 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: family member, this is the book to give them for 62 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: that healing journey. Please welcome back to On Purpose, Dr Romney. 63 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: Thank you so much as a absolutely astounding introduction, So 64 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 2: thank you, thank you so much. 65 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: Well, No, I'm so happy to have you back because 66 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: last time we were together, you just crushed it and 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: everyone was so happy and grateful for our conversation. You 68 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: have a new book out right now as we speaking. 69 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: As I said to everyone, it's called It's Not You. 70 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: I was so excited to dive into this and I 71 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: can't wait to talk to you about it now. And 72 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: as I said, tom on, please do get the book. 73 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: We'll be diving in a couple of topics here today, 74 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: but to get the depth of the book, make sure 75 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: you grab a copy of it. I want to start 76 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: off d Rominy by again clarifying terms, because I think 77 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: we're living at a time where there's so many terms 78 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: on TikTok and YouTube and social media, and often they 79 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: transpire into how we talk to our family members, friends. Yes, 80 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: What is the difference between a narcissist and narcissistic personality disorder? 81 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: So let's start there because this is already muddying the 82 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 2: water so much. Right, So, narcissism is a personality style, right, 83 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: There's lots of different personality styles out there. Certainly narcissisms 84 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: are more maladaptive personality style because it puts people at 85 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: odds with other people's not good for their relationships. But 86 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: it is a personality style in and of itself. It's 87 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: not a disorder. There is something called narcissistic personality disorder, 88 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: which is when a person is presenting with the various 89 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: narcissistic patterns we've talked about, the low and variable empathy, 90 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 2: the entitlement, the grandiosity, the arrogance, the envy, the admiration 91 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 2: and validation seeking, that whole laundry list, the egocentricity, all 92 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: the selfishness, all that stuff. Right, So all of that 93 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: is happening. It's chronic, it's pervasive, It shows up in 94 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 2: their life and whole bunch of different relationships. The difference 95 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: is they actually go to a therapist's office who's licensed 96 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: and trained to issue a diagnosis, and that therapist determines 97 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: like yep, I'm seeing these patterns. They're consistent, they're across situations, 98 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: and they may assign them that diagnosis. The vast majority 99 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: of people who have this personality style are never going 100 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: to be in a practitioner's office who's going to make 101 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 2: that determination. And it gets tricky, right, because to call 102 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: something a disorder raises a whole bunch of issues. Personally, Jay, 103 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: if I ran the world, I think we'd get rid 104 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 2: of this diagnosis. I think we get nothing out of it. 105 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: It doesn't I don't even think it helps the clients. 106 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: A lot of clinicians don't issue it because it feels stigmatizing. 107 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 2: There's a whole host of reasons I think it shouldn't be, 108 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: but it is. Right Now, here's what you've got to 109 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 2: remember when we look at narcissism in the world. Right, So, 110 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: there's people out there who are narcissistic. They might be 111 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: mildly narcissistic and a little bit more emotionally immature and 112 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 2: just sort of selfish and shallow all the way up 113 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: to severe where it can be malignant and it can 114 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: be coercive and manipulative and all of that. And there's 115 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 2: all the stuff in between. This book is really focused 116 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: on the in between. Right, So, most people aren't dealing 117 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: with someone coercive. That's and many are, and that's a 118 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 2: much more severe issue that is probably beyond the scope 119 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: of the book. But most people who are dealing with 120 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: the mild narcissism, they're frustrated and annoyed, but they're not 121 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: devastated and hurt like we see in that sort of 122 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: middle level of narcissism. Right, So the difference is literally 123 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 2: that sort of mechanical point they weren't seen by someone. 124 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: And I don't know that any but listen, I'll be 125 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 2: honest with you. If I met someone at a dinner 126 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: party and they start telling me their life, I might 127 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: even think in my head, I've got a hypothesis clinically, 128 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: what's happening in no universe we occupy. Would I ever 129 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: say to that person, even if I talk to them 130 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: for two hours, I think you have generalized anxiety disorder. 131 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: I think you have bipolar two. I just wouldn't say it, right, 132 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: it's not the setting, it's not the situation. I might 133 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: strongly sugges say, hey, you should talk to someone right 134 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: where it gets interesting is the mistake a lot of 135 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: people make is Number one. They assume that if a 136 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: person has narcissistic personality disorder, that their narcissism is more severe. 137 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: Not necessarily, there are people out there with NPD narcissistic 138 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: personality disorder whose narcissism actually is not as severe as 139 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: people who were never diagnosed because they never went into 140 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: that situation. So you see what I'm saying. So there's 141 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: people out there who are malignant narcissistic people. They're never 142 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: seen by anyone. We can speculate, we could spitball wed 143 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: say yeah, it's probably the case, but that person with 144 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: NPD may simply seem a clinician. The other piece though 145 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: here too, is that what it's doing is it's creating 146 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: this very sort of strange space where people are saying, 147 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: these are the patterns I'm seeing in a partner, parent, whomever, 148 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: I think they might be narcissistic, and the Internet, as 149 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: it does, is very quick to shame that person. Who 150 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: do you think you are? How could you think this 151 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: about someone? And this person is probably already been really hurt, 152 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: really devastated by this relationship, is now being shamed for sharing, 153 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 2: Like I think this might be what's happening, it's also 154 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 2: creating this ord really painful space. So suffice it to say, 155 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: I think in the public conversation about narcissism, we should 156 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 2: only call it narcissism. Getting into the weeds on NPD 157 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: is really getting on this sort of subtle clinical point 158 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 2: and it just creates It makes a lot of noise here, 159 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: so we're not able to have the clear conversation that 160 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: these personality styles are harming the people who are in 161 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: these relationships. 162 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: Make sense, Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Why 163 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: do you think it is that all of a sudden, 164 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: it seems, at least culturally, that more people are interacting 165 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 1: with narcissists. Like you'll be talking to a friend and 166 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: they'll be like, oh God, I'm so glad I just 167 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: got our relationship with the narcissist. Or I'm struggling. I'm 168 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: healing as your book teaches you how to, Like I'm 169 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: healing from this relationship I had. I think they were narcissistic. Like, 170 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: why is it all of a sudden we're feeling this 171 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: kind of awareness and culture? Has it always been there? 172 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: Has it increased? What's happened? 173 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: It's always been there. I think as long as there 174 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: were people. It has been there, and I always say 175 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: to people, open up a history book. I'd say about 176 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 2: seventy five percent of the people they've written about that 177 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: history book, we're probably quite narcissistic. Narcissistic people make history. 178 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: They and in fact, honestly, they often are responsible for 179 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: some of the greatest innovations we've ever known. Doesn't make 180 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: them nice people. I'd say, let them innovate, just don't 181 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: go on a date with them, you know, that's really 182 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: what we're talking about here. So there is an out 183 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: of the box nest to them, and there's a fantasy 184 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: that they live in that they often feel compelled to create. 185 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 2: So you better believe that they've always been there. I 186 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 2: don't know that we would have had the leaps and 187 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 2: boutance we've had in some ways without that, right, So 188 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: that said, it's always been there, but we never had 189 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: a name for it. Remember, psychology is a field in 190 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: its infancy. What's it been around one hundred and fifty 191 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy five years, So it's evolving. And 192 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: so this concept of talking about someone's personality in this way, 193 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: maybe since the late eighteen hundreds, we've even been having 194 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: that conversation. People have been doing narcissistic stuff to partners, children, 195 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: family members since time immemorial. We just didn't have a 196 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: name for it. I think at some level because until recently, 197 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: I think almost all cultures were probably much more authoritarianly 198 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: patriarchally patriarchically organized. I think we're seeing sort of bigger 199 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: conversations around that. So I think there was almost a 200 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: strange sort of universal radical ecceps and said, some people 201 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: are just really jerky, and let's just follow what they're saying. 202 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: And so we didn't. We just didn't even think. 203 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: Of it that way. 204 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: But we see history books of kings who were ogres 205 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: and invaders who were horrific, and these were not nice people. 206 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 2: They were the narcissists of their time. Now to your 207 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 2: other question, why are we talking about it? Like even 208 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: ten years ago, a person wouldn't have said my partner. 209 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: My boyfriend, that's what I mean. 210 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 2: But they would have said, First of all, we didn't 211 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: have the platforms. What if they did talk about there's 212 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 2: such a jerk. Why do they keep doing this to me? 213 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: I can't figure this out. Everyone has always been having 214 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: the conversations. We're using different languaging now and if anything, 215 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: we now have a construct and we now understand this 216 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: hangs together. The point of this book was really to say, 217 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: there are people with these personalities. They're out there. The 218 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: way they show up in relationships is pretty consistently the same. 219 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: And instead of blaming yourself and wondering what you could do, 220 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: it's not you. It's really them, and they're having their 221 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: process and their journey and probably not going to get 222 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 2: the help they need to defend it against it, but 223 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: rolling up and turning your life into a human sacrifice 224 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 2: to please or win over or prove something to an 225 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 2: unwinnable over person. I have watched people waste lifetimes doing this, 226 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: you know. And it's even particularly compelling if it's their parent, 227 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: but even if it's a long term intimate relationship with 228 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 2: some especially if they've got into the relationship young. So 229 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: this has always been a thing. 230 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that makes a lot of sense. And I 231 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: appreciate how our vocabulary evolves your time, and as that 232 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: expands and extends, it allows us to better label and 233 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: understand things. And I know that this book is primarily 234 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: about the relationship, a narcissistic relationship, and then the healing journey. 235 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: But before we dive into that, I want to ask 236 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: you a question, how do you stop attracting a narcissist? Like, 237 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: is there a way to not attract a narcissist? Jay? 238 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: I wish I could say yes. And here's where I 239 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: want to actually give my props to everyone's listening out 240 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: there who has attracted a narcissist. You know why you 241 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 2: attracted a narcissist because you're attractive. And what I mean 242 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: by attractive is you may be physically beautiful. It may 243 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: be your physique, it may be your something you know, 244 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: it may be your social status. It may be that 245 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: you could do something for them. What's attractive to them 246 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: may not be attractive to the rest of us. You're 247 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: attractive to them because you're attractive because you may have 248 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 2: power of some kind of world. When I say power, 249 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: I don't mean like you're a leader. I mean you're 250 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: self possessed. Many people who get into these relationships, we 251 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 2: have this mistaken assumption that the people who get into 252 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: these relationships are shrinking violets who have low self esteem. 253 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely not. I got to tell you some of the 254 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 2: people I've seen get into these relationships. I'm like, who 255 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: I should have your self esteem. There they're strong and 256 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: they know who they are, and they're saying this thing 257 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 2: dismantled me. Brick by brick, I was really well but 258 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 2: together when I met this person. Right, So this isn't 259 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 2: about a person who doesn't have self esteem. It can be, 260 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: but it's definitely not an absolute. Narcissistic people are attracted 261 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 2: to people who will give them supply. What is supply 262 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: for every narcissistic person might be a little different, but 263 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 2: it's usually physical attractiveness, status, praise. So you just being 264 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: a nice person and praising someone could actually be what 265 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: makes you attractive to them. So people may think, well, 266 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: those I mean, I have to stop being me. I'd 267 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: say no. They may be attracted to you, and you 268 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: may be compelled for a minute, but the key is 269 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: then to know how to get off the carousel before 270 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: it starts going too fast. 271 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: Good answer, good answer, It makes a lot of sense. 272 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: And again it's not you. It comes back to that 273 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: which I like, which walk me through the consistent You 274 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: talk about narcissism being consistent. Walk me through the consistent 275 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: pattern of a narcissistic relationship, so that anyone who's listening 276 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: can because I think, like you're saying, a lot of 277 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: us sometimes feel scared to admit that we might even 278 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: be within us because it's it's scary to accept that 279 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: and admit that and have that realization because we think 280 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: it's something to do with us. We think we've wasted time. 281 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: There can be a sunk cost bias of I thought 282 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: I had a future with this person. So walk me 283 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: through the pattern of a narcissistic relationship. 284 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: Let's just talk briefly about their piece first, because it 285 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: helps us understand the pattern. They have traits things like 286 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: I talked about, the entitlement, the lack of empathy, the grandiosity, 287 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: the arrogance, the selfishness. I want you to think of 288 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: a narcissistic person as a volcano, and that volcano has 289 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: got this bubbling lava, and the lava for the narcissistic 290 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: person is shame and insecurity. So they want to be 291 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: able to plug the top of that volcano, right, and 292 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: that plug is all this stuff, the entitlement, the grandiosity, 293 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: I'm perfect, I'm great, it's this so it keeps all 294 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: that stuff under wraps. That's not a conscious process, right. So, 295 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: but every so often in life something's gonna push that 296 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: lid off to the side, which might be feedback a criticism. 297 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: Somebody ends a relationship with them. Whatever it is, their 298 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: day doesn't go the way they want. They get stuck 299 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: in traffic and they're late to something, they don't get 300 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: the table they want in a restaurant, whatever it may be. 301 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: That nudges that manhole cover over and the lava starts 302 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: billing out, and that lava is their rage and their 303 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 2: anger because their shame has been shown. All of this 304 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: is unconscious, So all these patterns in their relationship, the 305 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: way they show up in the narcissistic person is manipulation, 306 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: invalidation of the other person, minimization of what another person 307 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: is going through, gas lighting, rage and reactivity, future faking, 308 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 2: which means promises are made and broken just to keep 309 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: a person sort of on the hook. There will be 310 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: blame shifting. They won't take responsibility. They'll always blame the 311 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: other person, which is why people in these relationships always 312 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: tend to blame themselves. There's a lot of deceit, betrayal, lying, infidelity, 313 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: there is neglect. Over time, they just give less and 314 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: less and less to the relationship, and the person in 315 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: the relationship is trying to make do on the tiniest, 316 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: tiniest bits of being noticed. That's how they show up 317 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 2: in the relationship. Everything in the relationship is about them 318 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: getting supply in validation. They have absolutely no interest in 319 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 2: the needs, wants, and honestly the subjective reality of the 320 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: other person in the relationship. Over time, the other person 321 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: gets almost as considered an inconvenience. If you want something, 322 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: you're an inconvenience, much like this cup. CoP's convenient when 323 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 2: I want to drink from it, But the cup all 324 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: of a sudden said, hey, can you take me to 325 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 2: CVS on the way home? Like what cup? You're a cup? 326 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: Don't tell me that. 327 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 2: So they view us in that sort of objectified lens. 328 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 2: All of these dynamics mean that over time, in order 329 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: for the relationship to work, the other person has to 330 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: entirely sacrifice themselves and buy into the reality system of 331 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 2: the narcissistic person. But that doesn't all happen overnight. Oftentimes, 332 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 2: at least in an adult sissistic relationship, whether it's an 333 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: intimate relationship or friendship, that early phase is very idealized 334 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: and seductive. It's called love bombing. But it's really this 335 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: phase where they're winning, not only winning you over with 336 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 2: gestures and tactics, but with attunement and attention, or seeming 337 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 2: attunement and attention. They pay intense attention to you. What 338 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: you realize afterwards is some of that intense attention was 339 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: them learning things about you that were going to be 340 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 2: turned around and used against you down the road. That's 341 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: often a point of devastation for a person who says 342 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 2: I was vulnerable with this person. I told them things 343 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: that I'd never told anyone before, and then six months 344 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 2: in I was being shamed and humiliated, and you know, 345 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 2: it was being used to sort of destabilize me. There 346 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 2: is a point where that love bombing phase then starts 347 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: heading into a place where there's ten good things, one 348 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: bad thing, ah, one bad thing. Everyone has a bad day, 349 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 2: nine bad thing, nine good things, one bad thing. Over time, though, 350 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: that ratio pretty much comes to like maybe one to one, 351 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 2: So now you're having as much difficult, challenging stuff, and 352 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: then these little sprinklings of good things happening. That's the 353 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 2: origin of the trauma bond. That back and forth good bad, hot, cold, 354 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: I'm here, I'm not here is where people will often 355 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: find themselves falling into a cycle of justifying blaming themselves 356 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: because it was so great. It was great for two 357 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: or three months, so how did it not become great? 358 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm doing something, so the person will literally it's 359 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 2: almost like you know when you open a bag, you know, 360 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 2: you're trying to find something in a bag, and you 361 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 2: take everything out of the bag chaotically, and it's all 362 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 2: in the airport on the ground, and it was like 363 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: one little like your headphones. That's what people in narcissistic 364 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: relationships do. They open the bag that is themselves and 365 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: pull everything out, trying to figure out what is wrong 366 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 2: with me? Why did we go from babe, where can 367 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: I take you to dinner? I'll take you anywhere? 368 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: To what? 369 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 2: Like, please stop interrupting me? And you're you're thinking what 370 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 2: just happened? And so basically, once in narcissistic person almost 371 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 2: feels kind of confident they've got your supply, whether it's 372 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 2: a promise, maybe you live with them, maybe you've really 373 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 2: committed into long term relationships you said I love yous 374 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 2: or whatever, that they've got you where they want you. 375 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: Then they're sort of almost not narcissistic folks are also 376 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: very novelty seeking. They kind of get bored easily, so 377 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: you being around from time to time they'll be into you, 378 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 2: but then from other times they won't. They do like 379 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 2: they do like the idea that someone's a constant sour 380 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: as a supply, and over time there can be a 381 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: real process of discard. They just really it can feel 382 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: like they just don't care at all anymore. Basically, what 383 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: they do is they no longer fulfill the roles and 384 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: responsibilities of what it means to be in a close relationship, 385 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: which is empathy, compassion, kindness, attunement, self awareness. These are 386 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 2: the responsibilities we have in a human relationship, and they 387 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: do not fulfill them. I even hate putting them as responsibilities. 388 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: I think that they come automatically for a healthy person. 389 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: And then if you do decide to leave, or even 390 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: if they decide to leave, you start to enter potentially 391 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: a cat and mouse game of hoovering where they'll pull 392 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 2: you back, see how you're doing. Sometimes they'll even figure out, 393 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 2: oh they're happy, now let me go see if I 394 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: can spin that around a little bit. 395 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: Wow wow, I mean, those patterns sound so painful, and 396 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: they found They sound so strenuous and stressful and heartbreaking 397 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: in so many ways. Why what are the excuses that 398 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: people keep telling themselves and what justifications stop us from healing? 399 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 2: I mean to go even more foundationally on that. Why 400 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: do we justify right when you think about one of 401 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: the most primal human needs, it's attachment. We need other people. 402 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: We are not meant to be solo acts. Human beings 403 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: are tribal. We evolved in social groups. Our brains didn't 404 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 2: change that much. We still need our people, We need love, 405 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: we do we need connection. And people say, what about 406 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 2: the narcissis. I said, they need it more than anyone. 407 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: They want all the supply, right, so we need to 408 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 2: be together. But that, especially in a child, that need 409 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,959 Speaker 2: for attachment is everything. And if a child has an 410 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 2: unattuned parent, or even an abusive parent, the child doesn't 411 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 2: have the option to say, I think I'm gonna split 412 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 2: up with them and see what I'm gonna go on 413 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 2: parent hinge and see if I can find someone new. 414 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 2: Right doesn't work like that. The child has to hold 415 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: this parent in esteem, which means a child that needs 416 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: to devalue themselves. What am I doing wrong? How could 417 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: I be more? And the child really learns how to 418 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: be everything that parent wants and needs to the detriment 419 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: of their own needs, right exactly. So now let's just 420 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 2: jump that to adulthood. Right, So the child comes up 421 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: with all kinds of fantasies, but in adulthood they may 422 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: be things like, everyone has a bad day, relationships are tough. 423 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 2: I'm no picnic myself, They've been working really hard, we 424 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 2: did have a good weekend. They did tell me I 425 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: love you. I mean, I could go on for the 426 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: next two hours about all the justifications I've heard. Right, 427 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: So the justifications are not only proliferate, they come easily 428 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 2: and jay, they're reinforced by the world, right because the 429 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 2: world will say, oh, relationships are tough. Maybe they're just 430 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: having a bad day. So now what you're saying is 431 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: completely in line with sort of what the prevailing wisdom 432 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 2: would be. And you do that enough every time these 433 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: really invalidating, destabilizing things that cut to the core of 434 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 2: your identity happen. The people who tend to get more 435 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 2: stuck in these relationships, quite frankly, are the more empathic people, 436 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 2: while narcissistic people are attracted to people who are whatever 437 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 2: supply attractive they are to them. The people who get 438 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: stuck are the people who are more vulnerable to trauma 439 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: bonding and who have more empathy, and as a result, 440 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: are more likely to make those excuses and justifications right. 441 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 2: They're going to be more open to the idea that 442 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: there's always different ways too. There's another point of view. 443 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: That's what empathic people do, and that's how it happens, 444 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 2: but in a trauma bonded relationship. And it's also about 445 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 2: cognitive dissonance, right, that we don't like. We don't like 446 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 2: the tension of inconsistency within ourselves, so we're always trying 447 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: to make it fit. And how do we relieve that 448 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: tension and make it fit We justify, then we can 449 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 2: maintain the status quo. And human beings are also homeostatic creatures. 450 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 2: We like the status. I want to keep living here, 451 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 2: I want to keep having this routine. I don't want 452 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 2: to find a new place to put my toothbrush. I 453 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 2: don't want to wake up in a new place, even 454 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 2: if you kind of might want to. Over time, many 455 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: survivors will say, I don't even care if I wake 456 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: up in a random place, as long as I'm not 457 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: waking up here, but how much terribleness had to happen 458 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 2: to the person in that period of time, And so 459 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: it's a person is just getting sort of slowly distanced 460 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 2: from their true nature. The longer a person is in 461 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: a narcissistic relationship, the more they literally have to abandon themselves. 462 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: That's what I wanted to touch on. Actually, where you 463 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: got to is, you know, what is the impact of 464 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse, like how because I think often we also 465 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: think like, oh, yeah, well you should know that you know, 466 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: he was a waste of time, or well look what 467 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: she did to you, like you should be aware, like 468 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's almost like we assume that it should 469 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: logically make sense to someone that they should be happy 470 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: that they're now away from this person. But often with 471 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: people who've been with narcissistic people, especially empathetic people, they're 472 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: still saying, well, I hope they're okay. I hope that 473 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: person's okay, Like I know they're struggling. What is the 474 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: impact of someone who's experienced narcissistic abuse on a deep 475 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: scientific psychological level, What is actually going on for them? 476 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 2: So what we're seeing pretty consistently across and now I 477 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: can say now thousands of people we've looked at who've 478 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: experienced these relationships, is consistently we see a problematic level 479 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: of rumination, regret, anxiety, sadness, self blame, self doubt, a 480 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 2: sense of hypervigilance, a social anxiety that comes from it. 481 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: And I want to put a pin in that hypervigilant 482 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: piece because I want to come back to. 483 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: That in a moment. 484 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: An interesting sort of mild association where a person has 485 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: become dissociated from their needs, their wants, and their true 486 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: nature because that has been so consistently invalidated in this relationship. 487 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: You see problems with sleep, You see the neuro vegetative 488 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 2: stuff we see in depression, like the change is an appetite. 489 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 2: You see problems with concentration. What's interesting, though about survivors 490 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 2: of narcissistic abuse is that some of them may actually 491 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 2: develop clinical depression, but most don't. And what I'll see 492 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: is these are folks when they are surrounded by healthy supports, 493 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 2: therapist friends, they're animated, they're lovely, they don't seem like 494 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: a person who's under that heavy weight of depression. 495 00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: Right. 496 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 2: So it is really when the relationship is present, it's 497 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: taking its toll, and it is why so many survivors 498 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 2: of narcissistic abuse are able to roll up and be 499 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: terrific parents despite what's happening. You see what I'm saying, 500 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: because it's not it's not a mental illness. It's a 501 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: normative reaction to this. But even with that hypervigilance, there's 502 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 2: a lot of talk about how nice survivors of narcissistic 503 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 2: abuse are. We recently did an Instagram live about this 504 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: and it was just me sort of yammering on about 505 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: something I'd heard that day. It was really struck by 506 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: the strength it had in our community because we talk 507 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: about empathy, empathy, empathy and survivors. But one thing I'm 508 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 2: really seeing in my again so many clients now at 509 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: this point, and other people telling their stories, is that 510 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: the empathy is almost functioning as a bit of a 511 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 2: trauma response, like let me be as kind as possible, 512 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 2: let me be as good as possible. And so it 513 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: gets very confusing for you, like am I empathic? Am 514 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: I trying to survive? And is my empathy literally like 515 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: this this trauma is a survival response to try to 516 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 2: like it's almost like that fawn response we talk about 517 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 2: that trauma response where I am going to be what 518 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 2: this harmful person needs me to be so I can 519 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: win them over and I will be okay, right so, 520 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: and then after that, though they're shame. Why was I 521 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 2: so nice to this person? They were terrible to me? 522 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: Like what's wrong with me? And something I really try 523 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: to focus on with survivors is to say, this empathic, responsive, 524 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: compassionate part of you is beautiful. We've got to heal 525 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 2: you and not lose that. Does that make sense? So 526 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: this isn't an amputation. This is very much about we've 527 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: got to keep this here, pull the shame off of it, 528 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: but allow you to become more discerning. 529 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: Wow. 530 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: And that's the trick in doing this work with clients 531 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: and for an individual who's healing themselves. 532 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: Yeah wow, I mean that analogy you just gave of 533 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: it's not an amputation. That's really interesting because I think 534 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: we would think that when something's that toxic and abusive, 535 00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: you just want to cut it out, get rid of 536 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: it it, move it away. But that's not what you're saying. 537 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 2: No, And in fact, you know this is one of 538 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 2: the things I really take umbrage and I'm frustrated with 539 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: TikTok and places where people are giving quickie advice is 540 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 2: it's almost as though if you have empathy for the 541 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: narcissistic person, you're foolish and absolutely not. They are in 542 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: their fashion, there's something not quite right there and they're 543 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: not even anywhere close to addressing it. My goal for 544 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: folks is you want to have empathy for them. And 545 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: I mean, if you don't want to, I get that 546 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: too to what you've been through. But if that empathy 547 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 2: for you them is something you want to maintain, yes, 548 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 2: I still need you to disengage. Can you disengage from 549 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: someone and still empathize with them? I believe absolutely yes. 550 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and that's a hard balance for the people 551 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: in your life that love you to see that, because 552 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: it can be really really challenging to see someone you 553 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: love feel empathy to someone who's hurt them really badly. 554 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 2: Correct, And it's also even for yourself. And this is 555 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: where it can bring up a complim emotions like pity 556 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: and guilt. Right, and I try and again. The work 557 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 2: of healing is that pity is that these mechanisms inside 558 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 2: of you that attend and attune and care about other 559 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: human beings are still working, which we want those to 560 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: always remain online, but that you ensuring that you pull 561 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: yourself back from a harmful situation. The world needs you, 562 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 2: We need your hold you, not the version that you 563 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: had to create to remain in this toxic relationship. And 564 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: that balancing act of retaining empathy when you've been so 565 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: hurt by someone, that's some of the hardest work of healing. 566 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: I see people do it every day and it's really 567 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: quite beautiful. But a lot of them think, have I 568 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: become a bad person because I'm so angry at this person? 569 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: And in fact, a big point I bring up in 570 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: the book, and I'm going to sort of jump ahead here, 571 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 2: is I actually don't know that forgiveness always has a 572 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 2: place in these relationships. And this is a complicated conversation. 573 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: A lot of people say forgiveness is all good, and 574 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 2: I'm like, slow, no, no, stop the presses. It's absolutely not. 575 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 2: And there's a whole body of scientific research that suggests 576 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: that repeatedly forgiving a repeat perpetrator actually harms the forgiver. 577 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: There's no win in that, and so what way it 578 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: lowers their well being? It can result in negative mood symptoms. 579 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: I mean, of course, you keep doing you keep doing 580 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 2: this because I think forgiveness is a very personal decision, 581 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 2: but it's also not a necessary one to heal. And 582 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: I think that the message a lot of people get is, well, 583 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: if you're gonna if you don't forgive them, you're never 584 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 2: gonna heal. The hell you're not. And I'm gonna be 585 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 2: very frank with you, Jay, there's some narcissistic people who 586 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: harmed me immeasurably. I don't forgive them, and I he'll 587 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: just fine. 588 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: It comes back to the you can't just say the 589 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: cliches to people and hope they'll move on and be 590 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: okay with it, and it can be really hard for 591 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: that individual to again either rise or lower themselves down 592 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: to either of those. Like I know someone who's been 593 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: through something recently who's dealing with it with empathy, and 594 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: I know for them, their friends and family are like, 595 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: how can you be empathetic to this person? And so 596 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: they're dealing with it that way. Or you'd have the 597 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: opposite in your case, where you're saying I actually don't 598 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: want to be empathetic towards them, I don't want to 599 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: forgive them, when your family is saying, well, you should be, 600 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: but I do. 601 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: I here's where it gets interesting. I empathize with them. 602 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 2: I don't forgive them, right, Okay, So you can those 603 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 2: two states simultaneously. And I think that again. One of 604 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: the big exercises in the book, and I think it 605 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: might be one of the most important ones, is something 606 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: I have been doing with clients for a long time, 607 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 2: which is a multiple truths exercise. Because it's so easy 608 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 2: to say, write all the terrible stuff. And I do 609 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: tell people to record all the terrible stuff, but I said, like, 610 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: let's just be. I want you to write everything you 611 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: feel for this person. And a person might write, this 612 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: is my mother. I hate her. She had a tough backstory, 613 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,959 Speaker 2: she was terrible to us as children. She lives alone. 614 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: I feel sorry for her. I wish you would change. 615 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: I know she won't change. This is literally the stream 616 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: of consciousness for a survivor. You look at that, and 617 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: right there, it's manifest why survivors are so confused. But 618 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: I absolutely believe, and not everyone does. Some people have 619 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: no empathy for this person, but I think it's quite possible. 620 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 2: And this is where everyone say, no, that's not possible. 621 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: If you empathize with them. You'd forgive them, I say, 622 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: I understand why they are the way they are. I 623 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: even kind of understand why they did what they did. 624 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: What they did was unforgivable, and so I wish them 625 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: no ill will. In fact, if good things happen to them, 626 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: so be it. If bad things happen to them, so 627 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: be it. So there's a mild indifference to it, but 628 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 2: it wouldn't be a loss. I mean, I don't think. Again, 629 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 2: there's so many forms of empathy, and empathy is it's 630 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 2: own complicated conversation. But I don't think that the not 631 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 2: forgiving is a lack of empathy, because forgiveness really reflects 632 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 2: the harm it's done to us. And people say, no, no, no, 633 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: it's a gift for you too. 634 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: Mi. 635 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm not giving them this gift because I 636 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: know they would do it again. If I let this 637 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: person back in, they would do it again. 638 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: I love that distinction between empathy and forgiveness really important 639 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: to understand. Another word, that a whole chapter is dedicated 640 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: to radical acceptance. Define that for us so that we 641 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: can understand how that's used. Because again, even looking at 642 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: the difference between empathy and forgiveness, it's so interesting to 643 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: me just how subtle and specific healing looks like as 644 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: opposed to this almost abstract journey that's often painted of healing, 645 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: being like you move from this stage to here where 646 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: it's you know right, Yeah. 647 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 2: So radical acceptance is it's I have to say, there's one, 648 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: there's two, probably two essential ingredients to healing. You're going 649 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: to go through radical acceptance. You're going to go through grief, 650 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 2: and then it's sort of people are going to go 651 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 2: on different paths. But radical acceptance is the absolute acceptance 652 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 2: that these patterns are not this person's behavior is not 653 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 2: going to change, at least not significantly enough to make 654 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 2: this into healthy relationship. That this behavior affected you, and 655 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: as long as you're in the purview of this behavior, 656 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 2: as long as they keep doing this to you, it 657 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: will keep hurting you. Because some people have said to me, 658 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: they say, I radically accept it. They're not going to change. 659 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: How come when they say these things to me, it 660 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 2: still bothers me. I'm like, Gods, it's hurting you. It's 661 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 2: still hurtful just because you understand why it's coming out 662 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 2: of them. You didn't just become a piece of concrete, 663 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 2: like you still have a soul and a heart and 664 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: a psyche that can be hurt. So some people, I think, 665 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 2: thought radical acceptance was like a magic pill that if 666 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: I take this, then the narcissistic person will never bother 667 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 2: me again, and so all of that particularly, but the 668 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 2: key element of it is this is not going to change, 669 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 2: and all decisions from that point forward have to be 670 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: made on that basis. By definition, narcissism is, like I said, 671 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 2: a maladaptive personality style. But it's also a rigid personality style. 672 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: The less healthy the personality, the less flexible that it is. 673 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 2: So very healthy people have extraordinarily flexible personality. So the 674 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 2: core of mental health is flexibility. It's almost like physical health, right. 675 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 2: A person who's physically healthy has a lot of flexibility 676 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: in their muscles and joints. A mentally healthy person has 677 00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: a lot of flexibility in their psyche. 678 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: How do we find flexibility in ours? 679 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 2: H I I would say it's an adaptability. It is 680 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 2: a self awareness and awareness of others. It's the ability 681 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 2: to engage in novel problem solving and not get stuck 682 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 2: on a singular solution. It's the capacity to be able 683 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 2: to self regulate and to self soothe those are some 684 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: of the things I'd file into that sort of that flexibility. 685 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 2: And I'm not just saying it's like sure, I'll go 686 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 2: anywhere you want. I'm not saying it's the it's the 687 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: I'm game for anything. But when things when there's disappointment, 688 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 2: there's the capacity to cope with it. It's a lot 689 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 2: of coping, a lot of resilience is in that flexibility piece, right, 690 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 2: That is the core of health. I've worked with people 691 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 2: who have survived severe trauma. It's ice, but the ones 692 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: who really are standing in a different way, it's that flexibility, right. 693 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 2: And you think about it. If a tree is flexible, 694 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 2: it'll bend with the wind. If it's not, it's going 695 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 2: to snap if the wind is too hard. That would 696 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: really be the best sort of an analogy. So narcissism 697 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: is this sort of maladaptive, rigid style. There's very little 698 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 2: self reflective capacity for the narcissistic person, very little self 699 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 2: awareness for the narcissistic person, and very little awareness of 700 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 2: the people around them. There is little motivation to change. 701 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 2: Most grandiose narcissists subjectively think of themselves as great people. 702 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 2: If you ask them, let's say, I'm a great guy 703 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: like I'll help anyone, I'll do anything for anyone. I'm 704 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 2: just a cool person. They believe it, having just cheated 705 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 2: on their girlfriend two nights before that, they're able to 706 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 2: maintain what almost feels like a delusional self schema. Those 707 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: things are not amenable to change. And again, the nice 708 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 2: thing about being an old lady is I've been doing 709 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 2: this so long that I've seen cases fifteen, twenty years. 710 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: And when I tell you that, there's been some interesting 711 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 2: things they've learned about themselves. In some cases they had 712 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 2: co occurring conditions. Addiction is a great example. The addiction 713 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: is managed like they've been sober for many years, but 714 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 2: that core personnalit. They are definitely not fit for an 715 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 2: intimate relationship, at least not one where someone's not going 716 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 2: to get hurt. So that radical acceptance of the all 717 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 2: of it, that moment is the penny drop moment, because 718 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 2: now people see the path forward very differently. This is 719 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 2: no longer once the kids grow up, it's going to 720 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 2: get easier. This is no longer when he gets the promotion, 721 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: things are going to get better. This is no longer 722 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 2: when the grandkids come my parents is going to calm 723 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 2: down this is this is it. And I've sat with 724 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 2: many clients and said, I'm going to put something to you, 725 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: and I'm going to say, if I were to tell 726 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 2: you this is it, this is never going to change, 727 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 2: how would that affect the decisions you make? Most clients 728 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: will say, can I tell you next week? Because that 729 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 2: has a lot to take in. But the challenge with 730 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 2: radical acceptance, Jay, is that I wish I could say 731 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 2: it's on and the light comes in the window. You 732 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 2: know a couple things is that radical acceptance doesn't mean 733 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 2: you're signing off on this. It doesn't mean you're giving 734 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: into it. It doesn't mean you're agreeing with it. It's 735 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,959 Speaker 2: not that it is. You're seeing it absolutely and painfully clear. 736 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 2: And you know what happens if you painfully and radically 737 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 2: see something, The grief comes over you like a tsunami, 738 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 2: because this is your mom, the mom you always thought 739 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 2: one day we're going to have the moment, or your 740 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 2: dad where you're like, one day they're gonna get me, 741 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 2: or the partner where're like, we are going to grow 742 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 2: old together and it's gonna be okay. You're giving up 743 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 2: a narrative, you're giving up a hope. You're giving up 744 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 2: a life story, You're giving up things you held on 745 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 2: to since you were a child. That's devastation. And I 746 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 2: tell folks, now we're going to hold on tight because 747 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 2: grief is the most human of experiences. It's one of 748 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 2: the other than life, other than being born and dying. 749 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 2: I don't know of any other universal human experience other 750 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 2: than grief. All human beings lose, right, we lose something 751 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 2: or someone, and we all have a very similar experience. Internally, 752 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 2: we grief, and that's why we have rituals. Right, But 753 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 2: ultimately we go through a period of grief. And I 754 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 2: think in this moder age, we think we're better than grief. 755 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 2: We think we can soldier throat. I can make my 756 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 2: grief go like this. Nobody gets to make their grief 757 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 2: go quicker. 758 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: Right. 759 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: Grief is grief, and that grief actually leads people ja 760 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 2: to say, Okay, this feels terrible. Maybe I should go 761 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,760 Speaker 2: back into the relationship. Maybe I made a mistake. Maybe 762 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 2: I'm not seeing this clearly. Maybe I'm the problem, Maybe 763 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 2: I'm the narcissist. And so the holding on during the grief, 764 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 2: understanding what's happening within you that the loss isn't just 765 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 2: I'm not talking to my partner anymore, or I'm distanced 766 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 2: from my mother or I'm getting a divorce. But the 767 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 2: grief is how much of yourself you lost in this 768 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 2: relationship when people have to dive into that, And sometimes 769 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 2: I'll say, I'm kind of glad they're gone, but oh, 770 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 2: what what just happened to me? 771 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, it's the grief of the life you once had. 772 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: You're going to have what you could have, the grief 773 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,919 Speaker 1: of the loss of the person that you lost while 774 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 1: you dissolved into this relationship. And and I've seen that 775 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 1: from the people I know, not people I would say, 776 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: these are people that I know in my life, but 777 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: I've seen just that dissolving of one's identity, like completely clueless, 778 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: even if they've disengaged. Two, I don't know who I 779 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: am anymore, and I don't know what to do anymore. 780 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: And I don't know whether I was confident, or whether 781 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: I was bubbly, or whether I was extra or intro like. 782 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: I just don't know, yep. And what's the first step 783 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: when you're feeling I don't know what? Where do you? 784 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 1: Where's the starting point? 785 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 2: I tell folks, we're taking you back to basics. And 786 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 2: it's little things like I'll say, three times a day, 787 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 2: set a little timer if you want. I want you 788 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 2: to just when that little notification comes up, I want 789 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 2: you to stop and say, how do I feel right now? 790 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: Am I cool? 791 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 2: Am I hungry? My thirsty? Like physiological functions, figure out 792 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 2: where you want your thermostat and move it and see 793 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 2: like I'm filing sixteen sixty eight, this is nice. People 794 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 2: don't even know that. I'll say, what do you want 795 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 2: on your pizza? You'd be amazed how many people are 796 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 2: flum mixed by that question and say, well, he always 797 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,919 Speaker 2: wanted what do you want on your pizza? And they'll 798 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 2: say and they'll catch themselves. This isn't meant to be silly. 799 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 2: This is how even these sort of low hanging questions 800 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 2: become a place where a person is now being able 801 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 2: to recreate a subjective focus. They were told for years 802 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 2: you can't be hungry, you just ate. You can't be cold, 803 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 2: I am warm, You're not tired, you got plenty of sleep. 804 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 2: That's what they were told. So when that's done to you, 805 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 2: not just once, but hundreds, if not thousands of times, 806 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 2: just that initial process and part of what I write 807 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 2: about in the book is just you keep reorienting to 808 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 2: yourself and you ask yourself a few times a day, 809 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 2: like what's the temperature? I'm actually feeling a little bit cold, 810 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 2: and that's okay, even if everyone else has a bathing 811 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 2: suit on, it's okay. 812 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: Wow. It's just bringing that person back into body, into 813 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: their body, because that's our most physical, tangible way of 814 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: knowing how we feel. And because we've gone so far 815 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: away from understanding how we feel, that's going to be 816 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: the easy way. Same with what do you want on 817 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: your pizza? It sounds silly, but it's not. 818 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 2: Because it's silly at all. 819 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: Let's get these basic decisions right. Let's get these really 820 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 1: amateur decisions right, rather than thinking who am I? What 821 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 1: is the goal of my life? Like? 822 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 2: But you work up to that and when you ask 823 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 2: people whome and I don't know, and I'll say what 824 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 2: do you stand for? Tell me something that's important to you, 825 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 2: and they will really say, no, I've never thought in 826 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 2: these levels. I mean, your focus for so many people's 827 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 2: meaning and purpose right to me. That's when we're getting 828 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 2: into the latter stages of really this, you know, this 829 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 2: individuation and this autonomy of what is meaningful to you, 830 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 2: what is purposeful. I remember a client when saying to me, 831 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 2: we're talking about meaning a purpose, and she said, are 832 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 2: you kidding me? What's meaningful and purposeful? She said, I 833 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 2: just want to get to a day where I don't 834 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 2: think about them. And I said, great, then that's that's 835 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 2: where it is right now, and over time we're going 836 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 2: to build on that. But that can feel very out 837 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 2: of for people, like in fact, in my healing program 838 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 2: this month, it's going to be meeting in purpose this month, 839 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 2: and even I as I construct that curriculum, I'm realizing, 840 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 2: like I want a lot of the usual conversation about 841 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 2: meaning a purpose. I'm almost having to have the conversation, 842 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 2: you know, point two of what it means when you 843 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 2: were going through this and someone who's the survivor of 844 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:24,479 Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse. But then it's also the willingness to turn 845 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 2: to trust it do us. I'm going to give you 846 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 2: a silly example of something that happened today. I had 847 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 2: a very problematic call today right with someone and I 848 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 2: had to put the call on speaker because someone was 849 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 2: helping me something in the house and I had to 850 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,359 Speaker 2: be she was doing her work quietly, but it wasn't 851 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 2: a confidential call. It it was a business thing. And 852 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 2: the call went terribly. The person was very disrespectful, very dismissive. 853 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 2: And I've been through narcissistic abuse in many ways and 854 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 2: shapes and forms in my life. So my first tendency 855 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 2: was am I being too sensitive? Am I being too demanding? 856 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,879 Speaker 2: Am I being Ridiculous's what I was thinking. And at 857 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 2: one point, the lady who was helping me out, she 858 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:01,919 Speaker 2: kind of looked at me, rolled her eye. I rolled 859 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 2: my eyes and she looked back at me and she 860 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 2: said yeah. And I got off the phone and the 861 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,800 Speaker 2: person who was helping with something else, she had nothing 862 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 2: to do with this is call. And I closed my 863 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 2: eyes and the person said. The person in the room 864 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 2: with me said, yeesh, that was absolutely ridiculous. And I 865 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,479 Speaker 2: looked at it and I said, say more, and she said, 866 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 2: I can't believe how dismissed of that person. She didn't 867 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 2: even do the basic and jay I fell whole because 868 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 2: my inner experience, which I still doubt after all these 869 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,239 Speaker 2: years and I've come a long way, but my inner experience, 870 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 2: this person outside of me, who I know cares about me, 871 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,839 Speaker 2: said it wasn't okay how she talked to you, And 872 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 2: each time that happens, we have a micro adjustment of 873 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,279 Speaker 2: that was on point. I read that situation correctly, and 874 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 2: then I was emboldened to make a stronger decision and 875 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,760 Speaker 2: decide not to go into to do what this person 876 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 2: was asking me to do was like a speaking thing, 877 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 2: and I'm like, no, I don't want to do that, 878 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:06,319 Speaker 2: but that other person's presence, having that safe space, and 879 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,279 Speaker 2: this is so a big part of the healing then 880 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 2: becomes building up safe validating anti gaslights as I call 881 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 2: them in your life, people who see you and say 882 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 2: that wasn't okay, or are you okay? Or that was disrespectful, 883 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 2: they did not speak nicely to you, whatever it is. 884 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 2: Most survivors are so used to being spoken too badly. 885 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 2: They're like, well, so business as usual. But to have 886 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 2: that this is why people go into therapy. And so 887 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 2: then I was able to take the much bolder leap 888 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 2: of no, I'm actually gonna end up going to the 889 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 2: other meeting. But thanks, I don't know that I would 890 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 2: have had that kind of courage. This is what healing is. 891 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,880 Speaker 2: You build up those people even if it's one or 892 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 2: two people giving yourself permission to put I call it 893 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 2: the ninety ten in version. Most of us put ninety 894 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 2: percent of ourselves into our most toxic relationships and ten 895 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,280 Speaker 2: percent into the giving, reciprocal, loving ones that run easily. 896 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 2: I said, flip the math. I want ninety one present 897 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 2: into those good relationships and phone it into the toxic ones. Yeah, 898 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 2: that's so true, and it's it's interesting because I think 899 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,759 Speaker 2: that kind of answers the next question I was gonna ask, 900 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 2: but this idea of I think when someone's going through 901 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 2: that healing journey, they're almost oscillating between like or do 902 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 2: I know myself again? 903 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: Oh? I don't know who I am anymore. I feel 904 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 1: like I know what I want on pizza. Oh my gosh, 905 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,360 Speaker 1: I have no idea, you know. So I feel like 906 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,760 Speaker 1: they go through this what I think that partly answers 907 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: that you need. These people in your life are constantly 908 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: reminding you, and as you said, anti gaslighting you. What 909 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,839 Speaker 1: else can someone do when they're kind of oscillating between that. 910 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: I think I'm making progress. I'm not sure anymore. I 911 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 1: think I'm making progress. I'm lost again. How do you? 912 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,840 Speaker 1: What do you find in that period. 913 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 2: Embrace the oscillation, right, because it is it's calibration, right, 914 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 2: You're you're sort of it's like a child wobbly on 915 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 2: their feet when they're learning to walk. You're you're learning 916 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 2: this again, and so that warbliness is it's the it's 917 00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 2: their internalized voice and your individuated self kind of having 918 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 2: a little bit of an argument and sort of view 919 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 2: that part of you that's trying to individuate, like say 920 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,799 Speaker 2: you got this, and that's an old voice, and that 921 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,719 Speaker 2: old we can just sort of say, you know, you're 922 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 2: you're actually not welcome here anymore, like you could just 923 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 2: step out, thank you, and the But it's the individuated 924 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 2: voice and the internalized, the narcissistic, internalized, the gaslighted and 925 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 2: internalized voice. And they're they're going, they're still fighting it out, 926 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 2: and we feel as though, am I aren't I just 927 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 2: like today anyone watching that call? I mean, but it 928 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 2: said this was not okay, and the person was almost 929 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 2: like the Emperor's not bring any clothes, right that this 930 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 2: person was saying, this emperor is naked, go away, rom Andy, 931 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 2: go away. And so I think that that initially we 932 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,919 Speaker 2: need those voices a lot more, and there will still 933 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 2: be times when we we will tell because I think 934 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,320 Speaker 2: there's certain trigger situations that kind of remain pretty consistent 935 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,360 Speaker 2: for survivors for a long long time. We do hold 936 00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,879 Speaker 2: it internally, and we were told too, Jay. Many serve 937 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 2: diverse are told they're upity if they want to achieve 938 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,439 Speaker 2: a goal, do you really think you're going to pull 939 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 2: that off? Like I think you're reaching a little too high. 940 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 2: So they were minimized and trivialized for wanting to do 941 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 2: something that they still hear that inner voice of don't 942 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,200 Speaker 2: be ridiculous, You're never going to be able to do that, 943 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,840 Speaker 2: and they make that voice their own instead of trying 944 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 2: to learn like that kind of that was an unwanted visitor. 945 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,640 Speaker 2: So let's see if you can sort of treat it 946 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 2: that way, and we can even think about it. If 947 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 2: you look at trauma theory, we talk about the protector 948 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,759 Speaker 2: persecutor kind of a model that the persecuting voice, in 949 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,440 Speaker 2: a strange way is doing this really messed up way 950 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,920 Speaker 2: of keeping you safe because it's telling you, like in essence, 951 00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:44,120 Speaker 2: it's that persecuting voices. That voice is telling you you're 952 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 2: going to fail, So you don't try, and when you 953 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,919 Speaker 2: were in the narcissistic relationship and you failed, they would 954 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 2: humiliate and shame you right or tell you it was 955 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 2: going to happen. But if you can say that, okay, 956 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,680 Speaker 2: I see what you're trying to do a persecuting voice, 957 00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 2: I'll be fine if this doesn't go well because it'll 958 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 2: be on my terms. And if you really have done 959 00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 2: radical acceptance, even when the narcissistic person rolls their eyes 960 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 2: and it's a little big surprise, you have to keep 961 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 2: coming back to this is a them thing. This is 962 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 2: not a me thing. Not saying it doesn't hurt. This 963 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,240 Speaker 2: is a carousel that really takes a toll on people, 964 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,319 Speaker 2: but it can be done. But that oscillation starts to 965 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 2: become a little less oscillate tea. The more people have 966 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 2: these validating voices, people build up what we call efficacy, 967 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,520 Speaker 2: the idea that they're able to do something right. So 968 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,719 Speaker 2: the first time we're able to do something successfully from 969 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,200 Speaker 2: make up a cake or change the oil in our car, 970 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 2: use a drill and put something in the wall, that 971 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 2: what it does to the psyche is remarkable. So I 972 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 2: tell survivors keep trying new things, because the more efficacy 973 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 2: you build that also helps foster individuation. So I'm like, 974 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,759 Speaker 2: grab the drill. If you put a few holes in 975 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 2: the wall, but the picture goes up, you're going to 976 00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,400 Speaker 2: feel really good about the picture going up. Try to 977 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,439 Speaker 2: make the difficult called soufle You may burn a few, 978 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 2: but when it's made great. I did try to do 979 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 2: this with bread. I still have not successfully raised the 980 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,719 Speaker 2: love for bread. So it's my last neurotic wound. But 981 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,839 Speaker 2: I think that when we find that some people and 982 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 2: other people do all kinds of interesting things. I see, 983 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,839 Speaker 2: like some folks I've worked with learned languages and they 984 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,960 Speaker 2: learn how to play a musical instrument, and they'll say, 985 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,279 Speaker 2: this feels so good because back in the day I 986 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,319 Speaker 2: would have been made fun of for this. Those who 987 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 2: are able to get out will say it's so interesting 988 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,799 Speaker 2: to do this, and that confidence starts jumping into other 989 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:30,800 Speaker 2: areas of their life. 990 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:37,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's really a rehabilitation ectly right, self identity, 991 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:44,040 Speaker 1: self worth, self confidence, self acceptance. You're almost teaching yourself 992 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,400 Speaker 1: to do things again in order to feel whole right. 993 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,320 Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, but you know what you say, it's interesting, 994 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 2: so you rebuild. For a lot of people to build 995 00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,400 Speaker 2: because if this happened to them in childhood, their individuated 996 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 2: identity never got to form at all. 997 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,759 Speaker 1: Wow, So this is a built yeah to build, it's 998 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,360 Speaker 1: from scratch, doctor Romedey. This is, you know, so informative. 999 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of so many people right now who I 1000 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,080 Speaker 1: know are going to benefit from our conversation today, because 1001 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,359 Speaker 1: it's almost like I feel like the more and more 1002 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to people, the more and more I hear 1003 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,160 Speaker 1: about people dealing with this in their lives. But I 1004 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:19,880 Speaker 1: want to ask you one last question, and it's this 1005 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: idea of can going back to the empathy point, that 1006 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:28,239 Speaker 1: forgiveness point for the person who's healing from the narcissistic 1007 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 1: person for them, can the narcissistic person ever heal? 1008 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:38,360 Speaker 2: So it's a listen. I do believe in human potentiality. 1009 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 2: I'm probably never going to bet on the psychopathic of 1010 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,000 Speaker 2: narcissistic course in the race, but might they at least 1011 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,560 Speaker 2: come in the top five maybe? And what I mean 1012 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,120 Speaker 2: by that is part of this isn't understanding the origins 1013 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 2: of narcissism. Right, some narcissistic folks, their personality development was 1014 00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 2: very much shaped by adversity, trauma, neglect, loss, chaos attachment 1015 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 2: modes right that subgroup. If they are willing humbly to 1016 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,800 Speaker 2: engage into the work of growth, they do excellent trauma 1017 00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 2: informed work with a therapist and then get beyond the 1018 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,160 Speaker 2: trauma informed work and are able to reflect on how 1019 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:27,800 Speaker 2: they're able to create that schema of how they affect others. 1020 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,960 Speaker 2: Right to pull, it's almost like you're pulling away that 1021 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,640 Speaker 2: you're pulling open gates and say, there's people out there 1022 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,600 Speaker 2: see this thing you're doing. They're being affected, and it's 1023 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,439 Speaker 2: really opening the schema out of how they're desperately trying 1024 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 2: to protect themselves to how other people are getting hurt. 1025 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 2: And I have It's interesting. I work with a narcissistic 1026 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,799 Speaker 2: client once for many, many years and I sort of 1027 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,960 Speaker 2: cut back my practice and I've had one or two 1028 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 2: of them reach back, Can I work with you? I'm like, 1029 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:54,880 Speaker 2: you know, I've really kind of shut up shop. But 1030 00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 2: they you know what they said, though, one in particular said, 1031 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,640 Speaker 2: I am I'm screen me get my girlfriend and I 1032 00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,680 Speaker 2: know it's not okay. Now he's still screaming at her 1033 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,480 Speaker 2: not so good, but he does know. He's like, I 1034 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,840 Speaker 2: know it's not okay, and she may leave me and 1035 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 2: I probably deserve it. And he's like you taught me that, 1036 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 2: he's still screaming on that part. But humility is such 1037 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,440 Speaker 2: a big part of this, right, and and the I 1038 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,800 Speaker 2: honestly think the antidote to narcissism is humility. And humility 1039 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,440 Speaker 2: means we're not perfect, we have flaws and it and 1040 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,880 Speaker 2: we are and it's not all a fantasy and that 1041 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 2: we're And honestly, the hardest thing for a narcissistic person 1042 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,360 Speaker 2: to accept is that they're ordinary. We're your ordinary. I'm ordinary. 1043 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 2: Everyone in this room is ordinary, and we're simultaneously special, 1044 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 2: but we're just people, right And so if that for 1045 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 2: them not to be the most special person means removing 1046 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,359 Speaker 2: the camp off the volcano, which is terrifying for them. 1047 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,440 Speaker 2: And if in a way they're almost terrified by their 1048 00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,800 Speaker 2: own rage, you need one very skilled therapist to guide 1049 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,799 Speaker 2: someone through that journey, you know, And so and they 1050 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,920 Speaker 2: have to keep showing up. And for about almost sixty 1051 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,000 Speaker 2: to seventy percent of narcissistic folks drop out of therapy prematurely. 1052 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 2: And it usually happens when the rubber meets the road 1053 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 2: and the work starts to getting really vulnerable. That's when 1054 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,040 Speaker 2: I've lost clients, and so we have to go very 1055 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 2: very gently into that forest with them. But unfortunately, if 1056 00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:26,359 Speaker 2: we go too gently and we never get there, then 1057 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,360 Speaker 2: we're sort of doing a lot of navel gazing. So 1058 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,960 Speaker 2: it's just finding that kind of balance, and you know, 1059 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,080 Speaker 2: they can do a lot of spiritual bypassing that kind 1060 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,120 Speaker 2: of stuff, Like you can't just you can't aphorism your 1061 00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 2: way through this. You're going to have to do this 1062 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,640 Speaker 2: painful work face up to that vulnerability. That's I've seen 1063 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,960 Speaker 2: some narcissistic people make a little bit of progress, But 1064 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,480 Speaker 2: the way I put it is this, there's hope for 1065 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,319 Speaker 2: them to make some progress, but the harm they've usually 1066 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,719 Speaker 2: done to another person usually it's not super it's not 1067 00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:01,200 Speaker 2: really that fixable. And so many people will say, in 1068 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 2: a fear of a lot of people narcissistic relationships, is 1069 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,600 Speaker 2: what if they change for the next person. They're not 1070 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,239 Speaker 2: going to change for the next person, right, what if 1071 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,120 Speaker 2: it all changes overnight? This is not an overnight This 1072 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:18,440 Speaker 2: is years and years and years of committed work to this. 1073 00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:22,760 Speaker 2: Like I said, I've seen micro changes and not enough 1074 00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 2: to have probably consistently affected other people's relationships and they 1075 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 2: still personality is like a rubber band. We can pull 1076 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,840 Speaker 2: it out, so all of a sudden, Romney the introvert 1077 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,120 Speaker 2: could become Romney the extrovert for one night only, and 1078 00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:37,719 Speaker 2: then when we get home, the rubber band will go 1079 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,160 Speaker 2: back to It's like the narcissistic person on a good 1080 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,560 Speaker 2: day with a good therapist might get stretched out a 1081 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 2: little bit, seem a little bit more tuned aware, do 1082 00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 2: some empathic adjacent things, but as soon as the first 1083 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,279 Speaker 2: time stress comes into the picture, rubber band goes back 1084 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:53,440 Speaker 2: to its original size. 1085 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. As 1086 00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,359 Speaker 1: the last question that came from that was what would 1087 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,919 Speaker 1: you say to someone who says, I'll wait for them 1088 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: to change. 1089 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:04,480 Speaker 2: Then you're waiting for a bus that's never going to come. 1090 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:05,920 Speaker 2: You're waiting for a submarine to show up at a 1091 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:10,279 Speaker 2: bus stop, basically, and in the process, it's not even 1092 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,160 Speaker 2: just as that may not come, you will lose yourself 1093 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,000 Speaker 2: in the process, And to me, that sort of soul death, 1094 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 2: that sort of loss of self is it's just not okay. 1095 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,360 Speaker 2: And listen, you and I both know this cultural We 1096 00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 2: both come from a culture where remaining in a marriage 1097 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,760 Speaker 2: no matter what the conditions are, is very much a 1098 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,680 Speaker 2: sort of a symptom of the culture. And this is 1099 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,480 Speaker 2: where I've probably seen it most pointedly of people who 1100 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:38,000 Speaker 2: really some folks would find a way, whether their spirituality 1101 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,920 Speaker 2: or other relationships with their children or others in their 1102 00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,560 Speaker 2: community to sort of create a meaningful space outside of 1103 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:48,120 Speaker 2: that problematic relationship. But others it was like watching a 1104 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,520 Speaker 2: fruit die on the vine. And it's to me one 1105 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:53,560 Speaker 2: of the most horrific things to witness is the potential 1106 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:57,760 Speaker 2: of a human being being lost to this kind of invalidation. 1107 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:03,880 Speaker 2: And I shudder to think how much potential, creative, potential, knowledge, 1108 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:08,520 Speaker 2: wisdom that people have held back because of invalidated. This 1109 00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,400 Speaker 2: book is a love story to every survivor and saying 1110 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:15,600 Speaker 2: to them, please bring We need you. We need all 1111 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 2: of your gifts in this world because you have so many. Listen, 1112 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 2: the fact that you endured this relationship is already a gift, 1113 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,840 Speaker 2: but so all the stuff you kept behind the gate. 1114 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,600 Speaker 2: Open those gates so we can see all this beautiful 1115 00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,680 Speaker 2: stuff that you could bring into the world. 1116 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,360 Speaker 1: Doctor Romany, Thank you so much. The book is called 1117 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:37,560 Speaker 1: It's Not You, Identifying and Healing from narcissistic people. It's 1118 00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,160 Speaker 1: available right now, go and grab your copy today. We 1119 00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 1: have just touched on the tip of the iceberg of 1120 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,000 Speaker 1: the insights and the knowledge that's within this book. Please 1121 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,200 Speaker 1: go grab your copy, and if you don't already follow 1122 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,240 Speaker 1: Dr Romney on Instagram and YouTube, make sure you go 1123 00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,160 Speaker 1: and subscribe and follow. And I want to see what 1124 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,360 Speaker 1: resonates with you from this conversation, so tag both of us. 1125 00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,720 Speaker 1: I'd love to see if you've been affected by any 1126 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,040 Speaker 1: of this, if you're a friend or family members benefiting 1127 00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 1: from the book, I'd love to see your takeaways. Dr Rominey, 1128 00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,439 Speaker 1: thank you so much again for this very thoughtful, very 1129 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 1: very insightful conversation. And I love your step by step 1130 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,640 Speaker 1: approach and also the ability to define and clarify things 1131 00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 1: so well for us, so I always feel better prepared 1132 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,680 Speaker 1: to talk to people even who may mention it to me, friends, 1133 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,520 Speaker 1: family members, whatever may happen, and kind of guide them 1134 00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,520 Speaker 1: in the right direction towards a therapist or the support 1135 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:29,080 Speaker 1: that they need. 1136 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:31,080 Speaker 2: So thank you so much, Thank you, j thank you, 1137 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:31,760 Speaker 2: thank you. 1138 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,680 Speaker 1: If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with 1139 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:40,040 Speaker 1: Dr Julie Smith on unblocking negative emotions and how to 1140 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,760 Speaker 1: embrace difficult feelings. 1141 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,320 Speaker 2: You've just got to be motivated every day, and if 1142 00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:45,720 Speaker 2: you're not, then what are you doing? 1143 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,000 Speaker 1: And actually humans don't work that way. 1144 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:50,720 Speaker 2: Motivation, you have to treat it like any other emotion. 1145 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,760 Speaker 2: Some days it will be there, some days it won't