1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Just a quick heads up. Today's episode talks about sexual

2
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:09,360
Speaker 1: violence There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a

3
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and

4
00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,800
Speaker 1: this is there Are No Girls on the Internet. Fifty

5
00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,280
Speaker 1: five year old Brian Warner, who you might know better

6
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,480
Speaker 1: rest his stage name Marilyn Manson, is melting a big

7
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,200
Speaker 1: comeback tour. He announced his first tour date since multiple

8
00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,159
Speaker 1: women came forward saying he sexually abused them, a now

9
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,120
Speaker 1: familiar page from the Abuser playbook. Warner is actually suing

10
00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,600
Speaker 1: one of his survivors, actor Evan rachel Wood, for defamation

11
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,240
Speaker 1: and emotional distress. The suit is ongoing, but back in January,

12
00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,279
Speaker 1: a judge ordered Warner to pay her court costs. So

13
00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,560
Speaker 1: why am I talking about this on a tech podcast?

14
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 1: I got into how this is actually a tech and

15
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 1: platform accountability issue with my friends Samantha and Annie over

16
00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 1: at the podcast Stuff. Mom never told you.

17
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,559
Speaker 2: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't come to Steph.

18
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:19,039
Speaker 2: I never told your protection of iHeart Radio and today

19
00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,720
Speaker 2: we are thrilled to once again be joined by the amazing,

20
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:24,560
Speaker 2: fantastic Bridget Todd.

21
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,160
Speaker 3: Hi, Bridget, Thanks for joining us.

22
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for

23
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,080
Speaker 1: having me. Always such a pleasure to be joining you, ladies.

24
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,960
Speaker 2: Yes, and happy belated birth Yes.

25
00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,120
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, I had a birthday. I almost kind

26
00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,000
Speaker 1: of forgot because it happened at a weird time, but

27
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:43,840
Speaker 1: thank you.

28
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,320
Speaker 4: You were in the middle of your travels, right, Yeah.

29
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 1: I was in Austin, Texas for south By Southwest. It's

30
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,840
Speaker 1: not a bad place to spend your birthday, but it

31
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,280
Speaker 1: kind of happened very quickly and I kind of forgot

32
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 1: about it. I was getting on the plane to go

33
00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,840
Speaker 1: back home and the person who checked my ID was like, oh,

34
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,200
Speaker 1: happy belated birthday, and I said, oh, that's right. I

35
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:02,360
Speaker 1: did have a person thank you.

36
00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think someone recently asked me how old I was,

37
00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:13,919
Speaker 2: and I like paused to think about it. Get back

38
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,760
Speaker 2: to you on that, But yeah, how was your south

39
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,080
Speaker 2: By Southwest experience?

40
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,680
Speaker 1: It was good and it was interesting. You know, it

41
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 1: was the first time they had done it since COVID.

42
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,400
Speaker 1: It was cool. I have to shout out the fact

43
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 1: that probably every other panel or like talk like speech

44
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,600
Speaker 1: or talk that I saw was a trans person or

45
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,040
Speaker 1: a non binary person really speaking out against some of

46
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,520
Speaker 1: the like horrific legislation we've seen in Texas. And there

47
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,120
Speaker 1: were lots of women speaking out about like the horrible

48
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,000
Speaker 1: abortion legislation in Texas. So even though it felt a

49
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,840
Speaker 1: little bit strange to be in Texas, I was, I

50
00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,400
Speaker 1: left so empowered and engaged and like leaned into the

51
00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,639
Speaker 1: fight to you know, really create change. So I have

52
00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: to really shout out a lot of you know, abortion

53
00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 1: advocates and trans advocates that I'm sure being in Texas

54
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,320
Speaker 1: was like tough for them, but I really have to

55
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 1: shout out how incredible it was for them to make

56
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,960
Speaker 1: space to open up conversations about legislation that is harming

57
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,520
Speaker 1: their community. So it was good.

58
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that because I know, like it's kind

59
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,079
Speaker 5: of so difficult to be in an area where it's

60
00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,560
Speaker 5: so toxic to you as a person as a human

61
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,840
Speaker 5: being going through your life and then feeling like, yeah,

62
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 5: you know what, I can't leave because I have to

63
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 5: fight this. There's just that double whammy. But that is

64
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 5: amazing to hear that such an event, which is an

65
00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,680
Speaker 5: international event, was able to push forward that conversation.

66
00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I really think, like shout out to all of

67
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,360
Speaker 1: those people who I don't even say. I'm like, I

68
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 1: think they took the space for themselves and I think

69
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 1: that was the right thing to do.

70
00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome, that's that's amazing. And we were discussing before

71
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,480
Speaker 2: this one. This is a topic that is so important

72
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,480
Speaker 2: that you brought to us today. It's a bit of

73
00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 2: a downer, but it's incredibly important and I think like

74
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,400
Speaker 2: we're going to have a lot of there's a lot

75
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 2: of nuance with this that I appreciate that you brought

76
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 2: to it. So what did you bring for us to

77
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 2: discuss today, Bridget.

78
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, as you said, it's a little bit of a

79
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,159
Speaker 1: rough topic. So you know, we're going to be talking

80
00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 1: about sexual assault and you know, domestic violence and abuse,

81
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,640
Speaker 1: So just know that going forward. So you know, my

82
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,640
Speaker 1: podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet is really

83
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,480
Speaker 1: all about the ways that issues that maybe don't seem

84
00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,360
Speaker 1: like tech issues, issues that impact women and other traditionally

85
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 1: marginalized people. You know, they might not be seen as

86
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,480
Speaker 1: tech issues, but they're very much tech issues. And today's topic,

87
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 1: I think is a really great example of what I mean.

88
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,839
Speaker 1: So today I want to talk about the platform YouTube

89
00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,159
Speaker 1: and their failure to remove a video of actor and

90
00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,159
Speaker 1: activist Evan Rachel would being sexually assaulted. So it is

91
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,280
Speaker 1: really important to me, you know, as someone who makes

92
00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 1: a tech podcast and cares about technology and works on technology,

93
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 1: to talk about this and especially frame it not as

94
00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,320
Speaker 1: kind of a quote celebrity story, which I've seen it

95
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 1: really framed as, or even worse as a quote he said,

96
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,680
Speaker 1: she said, which is obviously not correct because that kind

97
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,520
Speaker 1: of framing, I think really lets tech companies that are

98
00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,080
Speaker 1: involved off the hook. I'm sure these tech companies like

99
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,320
Speaker 1: YouTube would love it if this story was not framed

100
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,400
Speaker 1: as a tech accountability story and was just a sort of,

101
00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, celebrity story, But unfortunately for them, that's I'm

102
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,480
Speaker 1: not framing it that way. I am framing it as

103
00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,400
Speaker 1: a tech accountability story because that's what I believe that

104
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:34,800
Speaker 1: it is.

105
00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,000
Speaker 5: That's amazing because we literally were just talking about an

106
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 5: episode which came out with which TikTok I talked about

107
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:41,560
Speaker 5: the fact.

108
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,520
Speaker 4: That are allowing these really bad, like.

109
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 5: Really misogynistic jokes about killing women on dates essentially and

110
00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,880
Speaker 5: allowing it and saying it's not violating anything is just

111
00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 5: a joke, and it's kind of like, wait, where's the

112
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,159
Speaker 5: accountability know you are allowing this rhetoric that people are

113
00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,800
Speaker 5: just latching onto, which is so toxic and harmful and

114
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 5: dangerous for women in general. So we need to have

115
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 5: a conversation about why you are accountable for these things.

116
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 5: But I digress. Let's hear about exactly what you're talking about,

117
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,359
Speaker 5: especially with the Evan Rachel Wood. I think I know

118
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:15,840
Speaker 5: a little bit about it, but if you can just

119
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:16,920
Speaker 5: kind of go into.

120
00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,599
Speaker 1: That absolutely, So here's what's happening with Evan Rachel Wood.

121
00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:24,039
Speaker 1: Basically would have spent a few years now advocating for

122
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 1: survivors of sexual violence and abuse, and when she's done this,

123
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,200
Speaker 1: she's often referenced her own, you know, heretofore unnamed abuser.

124
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 1: But on February first, twenty twenty one, Wood publicly named

125
00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 1: her abuser in a message on Instagram. She wrote, the

126
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 1: name of my abuser is Brian Warner, also known to

127
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 1: the role as Marilyn Manson. He started grooming me as

128
00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,400
Speaker 1: a teenager and horrifically abused me for years. I am

129
00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,839
Speaker 1: here to expose this dangerous man and call out the

130
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 1: many industries that have enabled him before he ruins any

131
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,000
Speaker 1: more lives. And so a quick note for people who

132
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,279
Speaker 1: are listening, you will probably be more familiar with Brian

133
00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,680
Speaker 1: Warner as his stage name as a musician Marilyn Manson.

134
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,680
Speaker 1: But I am not going to call him Marilyn Manson

135
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,040
Speaker 1: in this episode, and I have basically stopped calling him

136
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,039
Speaker 1: Marilyn Manson in general, because I think it adds to

137
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 1: this mythology that Brian Warner has created around himself, and

138
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,280
Speaker 1: I believe that he has exploited that mythology to continue

139
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,520
Speaker 1: to abuse women. I'll talk a little bit more about

140
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,560
Speaker 1: what I mean later in the episode, but when I

141
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 1: say Warner Brian Warner, I'm referring to the musician whose

142
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 1: stage name is Marilyn Manson, whose actual name is Brian Warner.

143
00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 1: And Evan rachel Wood is not alone. Several women, including

144
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 1: women who are not famous and don't have a public

145
00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,440
Speaker 1: profile like she does, have made similar claims against Warner.

146
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,280
Speaker 1: So far, sixteen women have accused Warner of sexual abuse,

147
00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 1: and four have sued him for sexual assault. So, you know,

148
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,800
Speaker 1: I said earlier that people were mistakenly framing it as

149
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,920
Speaker 1: that he said she said, so even though that framing

150
00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,880
Speaker 1: is not correct, Even if that is how you were

151
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,840
Speaker 1: framing it, it wouldn't really be a he said. She said,

152
00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,400
Speaker 1: it would be more like a he said, she said,

153
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,640
Speaker 1: she said, she said, she said, you know, sixteen times

154
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,640
Speaker 1: up at the very least exactly. I mean, like who

155
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,720
Speaker 1: even knows, you know, this is what we know about.

156
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:06,800
Speaker 1: That's a really good point.

157
00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I remember when this came out and

158
00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,040
Speaker 2: when it first came out this kind of news, but

159
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 2: it's recently I saw it come up again that Warner

160
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 2: is kind of pursuing a legal a legal battle of

161
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,200
Speaker 2: his own against her. So can you go into more

162
00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,160
Speaker 2: like what is going on right now?

163
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,440
Speaker 1: Right so this you know, we were talking about this

164
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,440
Speaker 1: when Evan Rachel would first named Warner as her abuser

165
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty one. But the reason why we're

166
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,360
Speaker 1: talking about it right now is because Evan Rachel would

167
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 1: just released a new documentary. But you can watch on

168
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,080
Speaker 1: HBO Max the two part documentary called Phoenix Rising that

169
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 1: really chronicles her story. As you might imagine, it is

170
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,719
Speaker 1: a difficult watch. I watched the first part of it

171
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,280
Speaker 1: and I had to take a break from the second part,

172
00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 1: which I was watching last night, because it's a little

173
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,679
Speaker 1: I mean, as you might imagine, it's not the easiest watch,

174
00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,320
Speaker 1: So just if you're planning on a watching it, just

175
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,920
Speaker 1: know that. So the movie, it's it's interesting in that

176
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,520
Speaker 1: it starts ostensibly as a kind of Aaron Brockovich style

177
00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,800
Speaker 1: story chronicling Wood's successful campaign to pass the Phoenix Act,

178
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 1: which is an legislation that extends the statue of limitations

179
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,440
Speaker 1: on domestic bias in California. But during filming, when Wood

180
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 1: publicly names Warner as her own abuser, the film begins

181
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 1: to follow that aftermath, and so the documentary really chronicles

182
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,120
Speaker 1: her upbringing her her work to become a you know,

183
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,400
Speaker 1: survivor advocate and a domestic domestic abuse advocate, you know,

184
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 1: trying to pass this legislation, and then kind of pivots

185
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,320
Speaker 1: when we see her publicly name Warner as this person

186
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: who had abused her that she had been referencing as

187
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,280
Speaker 1: her abuser for so long in that work.

188
00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,520
Speaker 5: And I know when we were originally seeing all of

189
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,040
Speaker 5: this come out, because I remember seeing her testify before

190
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:03,600
Speaker 5: the name was coming out in front of the Senate,

191
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,080
Speaker 5: trying to talk about the statute of limitations and going

192
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,680
Speaker 5: into this whole conversation, and how quickly after the fact

193
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,600
Speaker 5: she shown herself as the survivor advocate, and she named him.

194
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 5: How many people came behind her like, oh my god,

195
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 5: this is why this is familiar as well as the

196
00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,560
Speaker 5: fact when she described some of the events that happened

197
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 5: to her, many women already came out because they had

198
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 5: gone through some similar things, including how they met. So

199
00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 5: can you kind of talk about their relationship specifically Warner

200
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 5: and Woods.

201
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,320
Speaker 1: I really like how you have framed that, because I

202
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:40,080
Speaker 1: think that in her situation, so many other women spoke

203
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,200
Speaker 1: up and said, this was exactly what happened with me.

204
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,360
Speaker 1: He did this to me, you know her, And I

205
00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 1: also think just her situation is really familiar to me.

206
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 1: And I think anybody who has dealt with domestic violence

207
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 1: or sexual abuse by an intimate partner, the way that

208
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,560
Speaker 1: he operated in the beginning might be kind of familiar.

209
00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 1: So Wood and Warner met at a party at Chatau

210
00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,320
Speaker 1: when she was eighteen and he was thirty seven. They

211
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,400
Speaker 1: maintained a platonic friendship where Warner would talk to her

212
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 1: about things like her favorite books and her favorite artists.

213
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,640
Speaker 1: Then the two started to date. Now, she describes this

214
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,120
Speaker 1: as a kind of grooming and love bombing situation where

215
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,800
Speaker 1: you know early on, he was referring to her as

216
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,959
Speaker 1: his soulmate and really was making her feel like he

217
00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,080
Speaker 1: was the only one who really got her, really loved her.

218
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,520
Speaker 1: Early on, she describes him kind of starting to isolate

219
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 1: her from her friends and family, and that was the

220
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,319
Speaker 1: beginning stages of their early romantic relationship. And so at

221
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,480
Speaker 1: this point, you know, you might be thinking, you know,

222
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,480
Speaker 1: why would someone like Evan Rachel would get involved romantically

223
00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,640
Speaker 1: with someone like Warner who was known for these shocking,

224
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,600
Speaker 1: kind of gross antics on stage. And that kind of

225
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 1: really goes back to why I'm not going to call

226
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 1: him quote Marilyn Manson, And I think that big part

227
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,480
Speaker 1: of that is because Warner's public persona, as Marilyn Manson,

228
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,360
Speaker 1: it really helped him get away with gross abusive behavior

229
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,680
Speaker 1: in public. So if you were a young person like

230
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,160
Speaker 1: me in the nineties, you might remember that after the

231
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,960
Speaker 1: Columbine school shooting in nineteen ninety nine, Warner was legitimately

232
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 1: unfairly blamed for the deaths of fifteen young people after

233
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,120
Speaker 1: it was misreported that the Columbine shooters were big fans

234
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,480
Speaker 1: of his music and that his music motivated them in

235
00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,320
Speaker 1: the shooting. At this time, politicians were lobbying to have

236
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,600
Speaker 1: his performance as banned, citing these really over the top, exaggerated, outlandish,

237
00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,560
Speaker 1: untrue claims things like at his shows, that he would

238
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,720
Speaker 1: have the security guards spike the drinking water at the

239
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,120
Speaker 1: shows and give it to young kids in the audience,

240
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,200
Speaker 1: or that he was engaging in bestiality on stage, or

241
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,600
Speaker 1: like ripping apart animals. Warner's legal team actually sent the

242
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,920
Speaker 1: American Family Association a cease and desist for saying that

243
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,240
Speaker 1: he encouraged kids to engage in violent sexual acts from

244
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: the stage in the audience. And so none of that

245
00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:59,240
Speaker 1: was true, and Warner countered these legit unearned, unfair responses

246
00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,440
Speaker 1: to the that his music postes to kids by doing

247
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,000
Speaker 1: these sort of very thoughtful, measured interviews where he was

248
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:12,040
Speaker 1: able to portray himself indirect opposition to this outlandish onstage

249
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:17,080
Speaker 1: persona that these politicians and conservative figures were sort of demonizing.

250
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 1: And so as he was being demonized by these people

251
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,120
Speaker 1: and sort of you know, them making up these outlandish

252
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,240
Speaker 1: exaggerations and claims about him, he was able to really

253
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 1: present himself as this measured, thoughtful, reasonable person And one

254
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 1: interview that really sticks out to me If anyone has

255
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,560
Speaker 1: seen the documentary Michael Morris Bowling for Columbine, there's a

256
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,839
Speaker 1: ZiT down segment with Marilyn Manson where he says things like, oh,

257
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 1: the young people who perpetrated at the Columbine shooting would

258
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,520
Speaker 1: have been safer had they purchased my CDs, you know,

259
00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,559
Speaker 1: rather than buying guns. And so he came I remember specifically,

260
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:56,120
Speaker 1: he comes off as this very thoughtful, measured, nuanced guy,

261
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 1: and it really created this, I don't know, this sort

262
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:07,000
Speaker 1: of portrayal of him as someone who was being unfairly maligned,

263
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,280
Speaker 1: and thus some of his other behavior was really able

264
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,080
Speaker 1: to go unscrutinized because it was so clear he was

265
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,960
Speaker 1: being unfairly demonized for this behavior that he never actually

266
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,520
Speaker 1: engaged in, Like he wasn't actually spiking the drinking water

267
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 1: at his shows and having sex with animals on stage right.

268
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,520
Speaker 2: And I know we're gonna get into this more later

269
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,240
Speaker 2: because I have a lot of thoughts about all of this,

270
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 2: and as I said, you do such a great job

271
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,280
Speaker 2: of like there are a lot of nuances to this conversation.

272
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 2: But I remember I listened to Marilyn Manson when I

273
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 2: was really young, and I had a friend who was

274
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,280
Speaker 2: her parents were really conservative, and they know joke, showed

275
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,480
Speaker 2: up at my mom's house and yelled at my mom

276
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 2: for letting their daughter listen to it, and it became

277
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 2: such a point of it, Like it didn't have to

278
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 2: become this point, but it became such a point of like, oh,

279
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 2: you you conservatives don't get it.

280
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,840
Speaker 3: You're trying to like hold me town and you.

281
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 2: Don't understand, and like, I feel so outcast and.

282
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,120
Speaker 3: You'll never get it.

283
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,440
Speaker 2: And their kind of outrage made it into a bigger

284
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:10,320
Speaker 2: thing than it would have.

285
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 3: Been if they had never said anything.

286
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,840
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I had the same exact experience, right,

287
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 1: So I was a kid, I was in junior high.

288
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,000
Speaker 1: I'd a heydamn, I'll say, and you know, I was

289
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:23,800
Speaker 1: like an alte I wouldn't say I was like a

290
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,600
Speaker 1: goth kid, but I was, say, say, very alty. And

291
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 1: I totally had the same experience. I ate up this

292
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,640
Speaker 1: idea that he was being unfairly persecuted, and I, you know,

293
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 1: felt like I was being unfairly persecuted as this like

294
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 1: weirdo alty kid as a junior high student. Never mind

295
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,960
Speaker 1: the fact that like that wasn't actually necessarily happening. That's

296
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 1: just like how I felt because I was a teenager,

297
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,440
Speaker 1: and I think he really really used that exact thing

298
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 1: as a way to avoid accountability for his other behavior.

299
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 1: And I honestly I agree with you. You know, I

300
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,120
Speaker 1: listened to Warner's music a lot as a youth, and

301
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,600
Speaker 1: I really really liked him. Like at a poster, a

302
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,280
Speaker 1: Marilyn Manson poster in my locker next to a Prodigy

303
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:10,840
Speaker 1: poster to give me a whole Prodigy. Oh, I think that, Like,

304
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 1: I listened to all different kinds of music, but the

305
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:20,840
Speaker 1: only music that had this kind of over the top, exaggerated,

306
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 1: like uh climate around it was Marilyn Manson, And so

307
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,520
Speaker 1: that fed into the idea that he was being unfairly

308
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 1: persecuted at the time. You know, I don't know if

309
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: people remember what it was like to be a young

310
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,600
Speaker 1: person after Columbine, if you were like a little all

311
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,960
Speaker 1: te or if you were all black, it did kind

312
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 1: of feel like, you know, the powers that be were

313
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,280
Speaker 1: cracking down on who you were in the aftermath of

314
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 1: that shooting. And so I think that had there not

315
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 1: have been such a backlash to the music Warner's music,

316
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,360
Speaker 1: would it has been another in a mixed bag of

317
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,160
Speaker 1: stuff that I liked. You know, I liked Prodigy, I

318
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 1: liked some Spice girls. I like so many different things.

319
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,680
Speaker 1: But because of this over the top response to his music,

320
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,280
Speaker 1: it pushed me that much further into this kind of

321
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,439
Speaker 1: I don't know, dangerous vibe where he gets to position

322
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,520
Speaker 1: himself as unfairly persecuted and anybody who doesn't like him

323
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,320
Speaker 1: or his behavior is just you know, doesn't get it

324
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 1: and doesn't get you eduten.

325
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,879
Speaker 4: Edreating. I'll like it. Well, I will say I was

326
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,000
Speaker 4: older than y'alls. I'm like, yeah, I wasn't.

327
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 1: Okay, we're not.

328
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,720
Speaker 5: Going to at the time frame on this, but I

329
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,159
Speaker 5: do find that interesting that we have this conversation because

330
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,639
Speaker 5: absolutely remembering all of the politicians coming in and saying

331
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,959
Speaker 5: this is this kind of that whole time frame around

332
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,400
Speaker 5: the matrix as well as video games and blaming all

333
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,440
Speaker 5: of these things, but also how they like to overdemonize

334
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 5: kind of like how it's happening with QAnon and when

335
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 5: we talked about sex trafficking and that they are doing

336
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,359
Speaker 5: so much theatrical things that make no sense that it's

337
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 5: overshadowing the actual problems that are happening, and therefore exactly

338
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,560
Speaker 5: like taking attention away from the true through crimes or

339
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,119
Speaker 5: the things that are so horribly wrong, because it is

340
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 5: being overshadowed by the caricature of accusations merely for a platform,

341
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,440
Speaker 5: merely for politics, and it's so obnoxious because yeah, because

342
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,880
Speaker 5: of that, Marilyn Manson got this credibility for being misunderstood

343
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 5: a as you had already said. And then also he's

344
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,840
Speaker 5: able to use that now as a part of his

345
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 5: defense today. But I know we're gonna be able to

346
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 5: talk about that in a.

347
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 1: Minute, absolutely, I mean. And then also, I mean, like

348
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 1: what you just said, isn't it interesting how the American

349
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 1: Family Association and all these politicians were trying to banish

350
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 1: shows We never did much about guns though. That was

351
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 1: just like we had the conversation about violent video games,

352
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,280
Speaker 1: the Matrix, black clothing, trench coats, Brian Warner, but not

353
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 1: the guns. So it's exactly what you just said of

354
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 1: kind of an intense overreach that reaches to the wrong cause,

355
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 1: I guess. And then let's the real cause just go unanalyzed.

356
00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:02,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's something that's been on our

357
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 2: minds a lot lately. Is this idea of consent and

358
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,399
Speaker 2: how our environment is really set up where true consent

359
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 2: for women is almost impossible, and this situation being such

360
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,960
Speaker 2: a grooming situation where you have this person coming in

361
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,640
Speaker 2: who's much older and who is showing you with attention.

362
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,360
Speaker 2: And I was saying recently on an episode, like I'm

363
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,479
Speaker 2: ashamed to admit it, but I shouldn't be because I

364
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 2: was raised to be this way. But like when I

365
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: was eighteen and people can't call me, I'd.

366
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,600
Speaker 3: Be like flattered. It's be good. Oh my gosh, I

367
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:35,640
Speaker 3: have desirability.

368
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,400
Speaker 2: That means I have value, and that put me in

369
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 2: some unsafe situations.

370
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 3: So this.

371
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 1: I hate this.

372
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 2: I hate that she was young and there was this

373
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,439
Speaker 2: older person that she respected and she was getting this

374
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,880
Speaker 2: attention and it's just absolutely predatory, absolutely praying on her.

375
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I I can really identify. I'll just

376
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,359
Speaker 1: say that. And it's one of those things where you

377
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,920
Speaker 1: don't necessarily realize it until you're older. And I mean

378
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 1: it applies in this situation too. I want to be

379
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 1: careful about how I speak about this because it is

380
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 1: part of the conversation. But when Evan rachel Wood was

381
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,360
Speaker 1: in a relationship with Marilyn Manson early on, and keep

382
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 1: in mind, she's eighteen, she's very young. I remember very

383
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 1: clearly her in interview saying like, oh, people need to

384
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 1: stop saying that I'm being taken advantage of or groomed.

385
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 1: And I think it's easy for people to say, like, oh, well,

386
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: now we're supposed to believe her when she says that

387
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,680
Speaker 1: she's being that she was being groomed or coerse. Well,

388
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 1: she was eighteen when that happened. She was eighteen when

389
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 1: they met, Like, you're so young, and so it's completely

390
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 1: tracks with my own personal experiences that you might not

391
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: have the world experience or just the life experience, or

392
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, your own understanding of your place in the

393
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 1: world at eighteen. It might take a few years for

394
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 1: you to look back on that and say, hey, I

395
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,880
Speaker 1: was being coerced, or hey, you know I is being groomed,

396
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 1: or hey, some things happened that shouldn't have happened, and

397
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 1: I didn't have the language or the voice yet to

398
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 1: say I don't want this to happen. And I think

399
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why this story is one

400
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: that needs to be told, because I think that's all

401
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 1: of ours I think that's so many of our stories.

402
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: It's so common. I think it's completely unfair to use

403
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: that as a reason to not support survivors, not listen

404
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 1: to survivors, because it is so common.

405
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 5: Right, And I think that big portion of this conversation

406
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 5: is that the early sexualization of young girls point blank

407
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 5: is part of this problem because I know a lot

408
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 5: of this conversation. When Evan Rachel Woods came out in

409
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 5: her acting career, she was thirteen fourteen and came out

410
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 5: with this big indie film that pretty much talked about

411
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 5: young women growing older real quick, trying to survive and

412
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 5: think the way to survive is to be sexual and

413
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 5: grown like that was the whole basis of the movie,

414
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 5: which that's the whole conversation in itself. But because of that,

415
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 5: because of things like that, that's where she came into

416
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,679
Speaker 5: the eighteen year old and no one listening to the

417
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 5: fact that this is grooming like I don't care if

418
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 5: she's legal now, which is which is a bullshit term.

419
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 5: The whole barely legal bulls that I really want to

420
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 5: punch everybody in the face every time they say it.

421
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 5: That's that conversation is really sexualizing these young girls and

422
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 5: telling them they are of more worth because they're acting grown,

423
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 5: because they are finally in their way of being a

424
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 5: woman and finding out and not having the support and

425
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 5: understanding or people even letting her know the whole concept

426
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 5: of consent and why that is a big conversation that

427
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,439
Speaker 5: needed to be had way back when, and because of

428
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 5: that feeling trapped because she is being told this is

429
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,479
Speaker 5: what you put yourself in. You knew what you were

430
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 5: getting into, which is the formula of all of the

431
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 5: victim blaming which we see today that has not gone away.

432
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 5: That's for some reason is used by everyone, not just men,

433
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 5: women all between you, because it's so hard to let

434
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 5: go of that internalized misogyny of saying, but you knew.

435
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And she explicitly says that in some of the

436
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: things that experiences that happened to her that we'll talk

437
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: about in a moment, like she explicitly says exactly what

438
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,479
Speaker 1: you're referencing that you know, she had internalized that she

439
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: was meant to just go along with whatever, and that

440
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: was that was like what she was supposed to do.

441
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 1: And that is something that I think that we all

442
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: internalize and we have to sort of like I know

443
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 1: that I have a lot of unlearning to do around,

444
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, at like saying no when something doesn't feel

445
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: right or when you know. And for me it has

446
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: been a lifelong process, and so it sounds like for

447
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: her she had to learn that as well. And as

448
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 1: you said, I mean, it starts so early, and eighteen

449
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 1: really is so young.

450
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 2: You know.

451
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: She talks about how when she first met Brian Warner,

452
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: she said that she really liked him and what he

453
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 1: stood for, and she wrote in his in her journal

454
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 1: that she thought that he was the hero and the

455
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: spokesperson of misfits, and I it just really does sound

456
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: like he did a very good job of making her

457
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 1: feel like that was true, that she maybe felt like

458
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: a misfit, and that he was an advocate for people

459
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: who felt like they didn't belong, and that he really

460
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: used that persona to continue to abuse women and girls

461
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: pretty much in public. There's this great piece in the

462
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: Atlantic that sums it up nicely called Marilyn Manson told

463
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: us what he was. It sums it up very nicely,

464
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 1: they write, if we believe would and more than a

465
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: dozen women who have accused Manson of abuse. Then a

466
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 1: strange twist is that the aftermath of Columbine seems to

467
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 1: have enabled Manson to become what Wood's brother describes in

468
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: the documentary as quote a wolf and wolf's clothing. The

469
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: hysterical invented accusations leveled at Manson then that he molested

470
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: children on stage, killed animals, had a security guard's drug underage,

471
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: fans with liquid ecstasy minimized other things that might have

472
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: been happening in plain sight. But they also allowed Manson

473
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: to detach his artistic persona from himself and allowed others

474
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: to infer that anything offensive he did was just performance art,

475
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: winking commentary on America's hypocritical and a moral core. And

476
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: that to me really sums up why I'm not comfortable

477
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: calling him quote Marilyn Manson, because you know, inventing this

478
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: persona and saying that it's performance art should not be

479
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: a way to avoid and excuse accountability for your own

480
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: abusive behavior. And I believe that's what the Maryland Manson

481
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: persona has allowed him to do.

482
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 4: Right, Hello, Kanye West.

483
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, thank you. I mean, it's all part of

484
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: the same, like abusive ball of yarn, right right, genius

485
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: artistic like it's I could talk all day about this,

486
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: but it's all like two sides of the same messed

487
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: up coin.

488
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 5: Well, that's what I'm referencing that Kanye literally is hiding

489
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 5: a little bit behind Brian Warner about bringing him on

490
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 5: stage and putting him as like he's an ally because

491
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 5: we're the same, and you're like, yeah, you are.

492
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 4: That should tell you something.

493
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like, I remember, I had forgotten until you

494
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: just mentioned that he brought him up on stage during

495
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: his visas tour, and you know, I think it was

496
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: meant to be like all of these malign people who

497
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: don't understand our genius, and it's like, you're right, I

498
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: don't understand your genius.

499
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 5: I think it's abusive, yes, yes, And I think you're

500
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 5: hiding behind that to get away with it.

501
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 4: And that's problem.

502
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly exactly, this is his thing. In interviews, Warner

503
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: pretty much is open and in public about some of

504
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: the abusive behavior that he has put Wood through. You know,

505
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: he's in a pretty notorious Spin interview. He talks about

506
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: how he fantasized about smashing her head with a sledgehammer,

507
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: or how after they broke up and she stopped taking

508
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: his calls that every time I called her that day,

509
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: and I called her one hundred and fifty eight times.

510
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: I took a razor blade and cut myself on my

511
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: face and on my hands. But then later he is

512
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: able to say, oh, well, I didn't really mean those things,

513
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: or I didn't really feel those things. I didn't actually

514
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: do those I was just playing a character. And I

515
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: believe that that excuse allows him to skirt accountability for

516
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: his actual behavior. As Brian Warner. You can't say that, oh,

517
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: that was just me playing a rock and roll character

518
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,959
Speaker 1: who was Marilon Manson when you have an actual partner

519
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: who is accusing you of abusing her.

520
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's really terrifying because we're also seeing this

521
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 2: in politics, where I'm seeing politicians being like, oh, that

522
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: was just a joke and you didn't get it right,

523
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 2: like doing that same sort of thing, and that's been

524
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 2: that's been really damaging. And also I again, I grew

525
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: up listening to a lot of like punk rock and

526
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 2: emo of the like two thousands, early two thousands, and

527
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: we were just talking about this, like the a lot

528
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,719
Speaker 2: of the lyrics in that which is a lot of

529
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: men singing about like pretty much hating women and blaming

530
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: them for their sort of violent actions.

531
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 3: And then and also the TikTok thing you were talking

532
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: about to man, this is the same thing.

533
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: We're seeing it again like being like, no, I mean,

534
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 2: that's just that's just who I am.

535
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 3: That's my art, that's how expressed myself. You took it

536
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 3: too seriously.

537
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I completely agree. And maybe it's just

538
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: because I'm older now I'm going back and thinking, like, wow,

539
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,239
Speaker 1: I was listening to music that was like there's this

540
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: brand new song where he's like, have another drink and

541
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: drive yourself home. I hope there's ice on all the rooms.

542
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: And it's like that's pretty like like I would say,

543
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: a very young person screaming along to lyrics that were

544
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: pretty dark, and I you know, I'm someone who like

545
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: I love I love music, and I think people should

546
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: listen to what moves them, but we should also be

547
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: a little critical about whether, like that what that was,

548
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: and if that was okay. There's actually a TikToker. I

549
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: can't remember her name off off the top of my head,

550
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: but she goes back and replays kind of like scream

551
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: o punk bands from or you know, from that era,

552
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: and unpacks the ways that they are really unfair to women.

553
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh wow, I had no idea that

554
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: I was basically singing along happily for an anthem that's

555
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: like about disrespecting women. And I'm a woman, you know.

556
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 5: Right, I mean any and I have been talking about

557
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 5: this for a lot while, about the romanticizing of abuse,

558
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 5: as if it's something like that that should be a

559
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 5: part of your relationship and not understanding this is really

560
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 5: not good. These like the constant phone calls not great,

561
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 5: the I'm gonna kill myself if you don't love me back,

562
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 5: like this whole level of like, oh my god, what

563
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 5: is happening? And we've allowed that to be because somehow

564
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 5: we've allowed that to be romanticized in our head?

565
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 4: Is this is true love?

566
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: Right?

567
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 5: Like, this is what it means to be in love,

568
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 5: to want to die if we're not together. And then

569
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 5: going beyond that for men, be like, if I really

570
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 5: want you, I have to show you my power, and

571
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 5: my power maids me hurting you maybe or someone else

572
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 5: for sure, in order to show you that I am

573
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 5: the man who can protect you quote unquote in so

574
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 5: many different ways, and like its kind of this whole

575
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 5: other trope that we've allowed to be Yeah, that's just

576
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 5: men being men. This is this is normal, this is good, right,

577
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 5: and no one really questioning until after the fact of realizing,

578
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 5: oh my god, there's so much trauma here.

579
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 4: Why did we think this was okay?

580
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah? I completely agree, and we should really be asking

581
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: the question about what we depict as romantic. And I

582
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: think something that you said I can't stop thinking about

583
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: is that it starts so young, Like how many of

584
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: you all remember when if you're a girl and then

585
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: maybe a guy when you were a kid pushes you

586
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: on the playground, and some adult somewhere is like, well,

587
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: it's probably because he likes you that right, you know,

588
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: Like we should not be it happened so early that

589
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: we make it okay when quote unquote affection or love

590
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: is actually abuse and I should really be asking questions

591
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: about it.

592
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 5: But honestly, I just one of my go to comfort

593
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 5: movies that I kind of tease about all the times

594
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 5: of Rabituy, and recently, I like, there's a scene in

595
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 5: it and I was like, oh my god, why did

596
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 5: we allow this? In which the rat comes through the

597
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 5: roof and do you see a couple fighting with a gun?

598
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 5: It goes off and he's like, oh my god, it

599
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 5: goes back and they're kissing and making out and he

600
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 5: just he just laughs and shrugs and walks off, And

601
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 5: I'm like.

602
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: Is that okay? This is wait.

603
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 5: Like we're not even gonna talk about how people are

604
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 5: really upset about periods, but this is okay.

605
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 4: This scene has made it.

606
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 5: But you know, like this is that level of like

607
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 5: it literally with just a blip in the screen of

608
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 5: a very g rated movie and it's romanticized, like ah,

609
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 5: but there they just love each other.

610
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 4: Oh, that's just one of those one one more couple

611
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 4: like that.

612
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know how you know how marriage is the

613
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: gun kissing, you know, the gun goes off and that

614
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: you forget about it.

615
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 4: Everything is fine.

616
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 5: But that's the thing is, like what are we teaching?

617
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't want to be one of those

618
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 5: people like that water is this movie teaching? But like

619
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 5: that is it's become so normalized in these conversations that

620
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 5: women really truly a girl, young girls really truly think

621
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 5: this is the epitome of being a woman. This is

622
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 5: the epitome of being in a relationship. Tough times means

623
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 5: he hits me, but I forgive him, Like that's that

624
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 5: conversation until you realize, oh my god, I couldn't see

625
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 5: it until I left, and until I figured out talking

626
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 5: to other women how it was not just him loving me,

627
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 5: that this is him controlling women in general, exactly exactly that.

628
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, I feel like we could go. I we

629
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: need inventing session. We need a podcast for this event

630
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: because I'm like, yeah, let's talk about how we're not.

631
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 3: Allowing for consent and all this stuff.

632
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: So I know we're not going to go too deep

633
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: into the but could you go kind of briefly into

634
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: what Wood says about what Warner put her through.

635
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, the list of abuses that he put her through

636
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: are truly horrifying. I honestly don't want to Like. This

637
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: is why I couldn't finish the documentary because it's a lot,

638
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: so I don't want to spend too much time on

639
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: it because they really are sickening. But among them are

640
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: the allegations that Warner, who Wood says, collected Nazi memorabilia,

641
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: so just a really great guy would whip her with

642
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: a Nazi whip and would her mother is Jewish and

643
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: she was raised Jewish herself, and so this is obviously

644
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: really messed up. She says that he also deprived her

645
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: of sleep, forced her to drink his blood in a

646
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: blood pack where he also drank hers, raped her while

647
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: she was sleeping, forced her to take drugs, and a

648
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: lot more of the abuse. She says, I felt my

649
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: brain change. I felt it almost calcify. And the world

650
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: is never the same, and it's just the list of

651
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: And I should also say that the kinds of things

652
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: that she says that he put her through, other women

653
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: who also so dated him say the same thing. And

654
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: so it's a lot of the same kind of stuff,

655
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: Like other women that she talks to have said that

656
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: he branded her or like carved things into their body

657
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: like it's horrifying allegations, and so I should mention that

658
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: Warner he denies these allegations, and he says that Wood

659
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: has been contacting and coercing women into saying they were

660
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: abused by him. He is currently suing Wood and her

661
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: Phoenix Rising contributor Il mcgore. According to Time, he is

662
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: accusing the women of a quote conspiracy in service of

663
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: which they supposedly quote secretly recruited, coordinated, and pressured perspective

664
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: accusers to emerge simultaneously with allegations of rape and abuse

665
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: against Warner.

666
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find it interesting that we have like sixteen

667
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 2: women at least coming out around the same time, and

668
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: we're as a society it seems so much more ready

669
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 2: to be Like, but there's this video of her at

670
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: eighteen saying she was into it, right, So that's all lies.

671
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: She manufactured this whole thing, and he is downtrouding and

672
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: once again the one that is getting unwarranted.

673
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: Exactly, women don't make this kind of stuff up. This

674
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: idea that they would be simultaneously trying to come together

675
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: to come up with these lies about him. Why, Like,

676
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: who would do that? Who would want the kind of

677
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: scrutiny that comes with being a public survivor of this

678
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: kind of abuse? Who would welcome that into their lives?

679
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: Some of these women are also, you know, not public figures.

680
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: People don't make this kind of thing up, Like it

681
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: is so rare for people to make up allegations of

682
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: this kind of abuse that it just let alone sixteen

683
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: different people just like it just doesn't cold water. It

684
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: just isn't the way it works.

685
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 5: And again, probably more than sixteen that's coming out but

686
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 5: the conversation is too that the actual events and abuse

687
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 5: were so similar to each other. Even the Game of

688
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 5: Thrones act or somethink as may Bianca, I think it's

689
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 5: her name, she had similar stories to Woods, like being

690
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 5: deprived of food, being electrocuted, like there are so many things.

691
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 4: It's like, this is beyond just Maybes.

692
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 5: And I do remember that he had one partner who

693
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 5: actually was like that didn't happen to me, and people

694
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 5: latched onto that story. It's so hard and it was

695
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 5: kind of like, but that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't

696
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 5: mean It just negates the entirety of the story of

697
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 5: who he is at this point in time. And I

698
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 5: can't stand this because it also comes back to the

699
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 5: point of demonizing these women and shaming them in every

700
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 5: way possible, taking any work of art that they did

701
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 5: so as actors who may have portrayed a nude scene

702
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 5: at any point in time, See, she's a slut, how

703
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 5: she obviously.

704
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 4: She knew what she was getting into.

705
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 5: This whole level of conversations where they just completely try

706
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 5: to discredit someone based on this and really feeling like,

707
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 5: obviously these women are doing it for attention, when it

708
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 5: actually hurt a lot of their careers. Evan Rachel was

709
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 5: for a long time, was out of so many things,

710
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 5: out of projects because of the trauma alone.

711
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he did have a ex partner say he

712
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: was always nice to me. And I'm not going to

713
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: discount what she's saying. But as we know, you know,

714
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: someone being nice to you doesn't mean that they are

715
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: never abusive to other people. And so people absolutely latched

716
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: onto that. And you're absolutely right that it certainly has

717
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 1: not helped the careers or the trajectories of the people

718
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: who are speaking out. And it's just like that's not

719
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: how it works, Like people don't lie about this kind

720
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: of thing. It does not help. It hurt Evan Rachel

721
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: would to come out, She risked a lot to come out,

722
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: and this idea that, oh, they're doing it for attention.

723
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 1: Who would want this kind of attention?

724
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: Right?

725
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: Who?

726
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:41,479
Speaker 2: Right?

727
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 4: And also let's talk about the side that.

728
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 5: Warner is not in jail exactly right if he was

729
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 5: on a damn Kanye West show.

730
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 1: Ugh, I hate it, I need it. So you might

731
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: be wondering, well, okay, in what way is this a

732
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: tech issue? And so there is one specific incident in

733
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: the abuse that Wood talks about that I want to

734
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: focus on right now, and that is the music video

735
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: for Warner's song heart Shaped Glasses. That music video features

736
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: Evan Rachel Wood. She was in that video when she

737
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: was nineteen years old, and he kind of casts her

738
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: as a modern day Lolita because apparently the story goes

739
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: that she was wearing these heart shaped sunglasses at the

740
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: party where they met, and in you know, Lolita wears

741
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: heart shaped sunglasses in the book, and so in the documentary,

742
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: Wood says, to the music video, we were doing things

743
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: that were not what was pitched to me. We had

744
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling,

745
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: he started penetrating me for real, and she goes on

746
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: to say it was a really traumatizing experience filming the video.

747
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to advocate for myself or how

748
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: to say no because I had been conditioned and trained

749
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: to never talk back to just soldier through I felt disgusting,

750
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: like I had done something shameful, and I could tell

751
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: the crew was very uncomfortable and nobody knew what to do.

752
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: I was coerced into a commercial sex act under false pretenses.

753
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: That was first crime committed against me and I was

754
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: essentially raped on camera. And so, according to Wood, the

755
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: music video for Heart Shaped Glasses is actually a video

756
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: of her rape, and that video is available, not to mention,

757
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: monetized on the platform YouTube as we speak. Anybody who

758
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: wants to go see it can look it up. And

759
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: so Warner's campus they deny these allegations, and they say

760
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: that Wood was coherent and involved in the planning of

761
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: the video. They say, of all the false claims that

762
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 1: Rachel Evan Woods made about Brian Warner, her imaginative retelling

763
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: of the making of the Heart Shaped class As music

764
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: video fifteen years ago is the most brazen and easy

765
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: to disprove because there were multiple witnesses. So they maintain

766
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: that the scenes in that video were actually simulated. However,

767
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone spoke to a crew member from the video

768
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: shoot under the condition of anonymity, who corroborated Wood's claim saying,

769
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: I do believe that there were some moments of actual

770
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: intercourse and so that for me is really how this

771
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 1: becomes a tech issue and a tech accountability issue, is that,

772
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: according to Wood, YouTube is promoting housing and monetizing a

773
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: video of where she says she was being sexually assaulted,

774
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 1: and frankly, I'm inclined to believer. And so the question

775
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: is what is YouTube going to do about this? Are

776
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 1: they going to just allow a video of a sexual

777
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 1: assault to be on their platform and continue to profit

778
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: off of it? I would say if that's the choice

779
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: they're making, it's pretty questionable.

780
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm afraid to ask. I'm going to said the

781
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: choice they're making.

782
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: I you know, YouTube, they quickly took the video down

783
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: and then they made a donation to anti rape organizations.

784
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: Oh wait, just kidding, they do any of that. They

785
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: basically so there's a change dot or petition with over

786
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 1: fifty thousand signatures calling for YouTube to remove the video,

787
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: and Evan Rachel would share this petition and they pretty

788
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: much have signaled that they're not going to take it down.

789
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: Their spokesperson, Jack Malone says, we're monitoring the situation closely

790
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: and will take a appropriate action if we determine there

791
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: is a breach of our creator responsibility guidelines. And so

792
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: this is really why I see this as a tech

793
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: accountability issue. You know, YouTube, like most online platforms, have

794
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: community guidelines that users have to follow, and according to

795
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,919
Speaker 1: those community guidelines. Content that includes quote non consensual sex

796
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,959
Speaker 1: acts and unwanted sexualization is very much against their own

797
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: stated community guidelines. The community guidelines in terms of service

798
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: says that a user can have monetization suspended or have

799
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: their entire channel terminated if their behavior away from the

800
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: platform harms YouTube users, and so to me, it seems

801
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: pretty clear they have publicly stated that their community guidelines

802
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: prevent non consensual sex acts or unwanted sexualization in their content.

803
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: And here we have a video where Evan Rachel Woods

804
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: says this is exactly that, and yet they're continuing to

805
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: host this video and profit off of it because we

806
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 1: know that's how YouTube makes their money. It's from advertisements

807
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: that are on the content hosted on their platform. And

808
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: so yeah, I think that YouTube is really expecting people

809
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 1: to only grapple with this as a quote celebrity story,

810
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: not an issue of YouTube and their own adherence to

811
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: what they say their community guidelines are. And you know,

812
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: I really take issue with that. I really have not

813
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: seen a lot of folks in the tech community talking

814
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: about this story as an example a really clear example

815
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: of YouTube, I think failing to create a reasonably safe

816
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: environment for its users, and just for the.

817
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 5: World right and out of curiosity, because I don't know

818
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 5: much about how YouTube works, not tech savvy. Is Warner

819
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 5: making money from this as well when he gets all

820
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 5: these views?

821
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,959
Speaker 1: Oh, that is a good question. I actually wouldn't really,

822
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,959
Speaker 1: I'm actually not totally sure if he specifically is making

823
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: money from these videos being hosted, but I do know

824
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: that he has a YouTube account, and so just how

825
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: monetization works, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not able to

826
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: say one way or another, but I wouldn't be surprised.

827
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: I check to see if the video was on the

828
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: platform before we started this talk, and you know, right

829
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: before the video played there's ads, and so I can

830
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,439
Speaker 1: imagine I wouldn't be surprised if he is making money

831
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: from that as another income stream. And yeah, I guess

832
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: that's That's really the crux of why I wanted to

833
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: talk about this is that this is what happens when

834
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 1: women and other traditionally marginalized people are not really meaningfully

835
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: centered and reflected in tech. It allows one platforms to

836
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: harm us and make money from our harm, and be

837
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: able to do so without any kind of real accountability.

838
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,919
Speaker 1: And two, it allows for there are so many tech

839
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: publications that are that are missing an opportunity to spotlight

840
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: this as a tech issue in terms of the harm

841
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: that YouTube is allowing to be spread on their platform.

842
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 5: Right, I mean, that's the cole big conversation is that

843
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 5: who is making money off of someb's trauma? And this

844
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 5: is absolutely what is happening, is that they're making money

845
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 5: off of it and giving views and giving credibility to

846
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 5: the abuser once again as a musician. And this is

847
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 5: such a whole other conversation of like, you have a

848
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 5: responsibility in making sure that people are not continually re

849
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 5: traumatized and or being harmed by your content. And yes,

850
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 5: if it is your platform, you are responsible, point blank exactly.

851
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: And I also think you know YouTube in their community

852
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: guidelines to say, oh, we can take things down if

853
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: there is a confession or a conviction. YouTube is owned

854
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: by Google, right, Google is one of the biggest companies

855
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: in the world. And how things work in the platform

856
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: accountability space, when a huge player in the space does something,

857
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: it creates pressure for other people to do things. And

858
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: so if Google was to do something that would create

859
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 1: the conditions for other smaller platforms to follow a suit

860
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: because big platforms really do set the tone, and so

861
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: I believe that a company like Google, who owns YouTube,

862
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 1: should be able to say, we don't need to wait

863
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 1: for Brian w to confess that he sexually assaulted Evan

864
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: rachel Wood on the side of this video. We don't

865
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 1: have to wait for a legal conviction. We are Google,

866
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: and we can set the standard for what is it

867
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: is not appropriate on our platform, and a video of

868
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: someone being sexually assaulted is not appropriate. I believe that

869
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: they're really just throwing up their hands and saying, not

870
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: our problem. Call us when he confesses. Call us. If

871
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: there's a conviction. We're gonna just ignore this and hope

872
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: that you do too. I think they are absolutely just

873
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: abdicating responsibility. And guess what, you don't get to do

874
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: that when you're Google. When you're a huge company like Google,

875
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: you have a responsibility that is very, very powerful, and

876
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: you don't get to just say it's not our issue,

877
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: We're gonna wait for the course to figure it out.

878
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: We're gonna wait for him to confess. When you're Google.

879
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: That is so irresponsible, and it sets up a dynamic

880
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: where other platforms can follow suit. So it really is irresponsible,

881
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: cowardly and also just harmful. And again, they're making money

882
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: from this inaction. They're continuing to just let this video

883
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: wrap up millions and millions and millions of views that

884
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: are being made from a video of someone being sexually assaulted.

885
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 5: And let's also point out that it's a video, not

886
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 5: the entire artist, not his whole genre of music.

887
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 4: One video. That was the request. It shouldn't be that.

888
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: Hard, exactly, and I guess I just I mean, yeah,

889
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be this hard. And I want so desperately

890
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: to believe that a different world for survivors is possible

891
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: in the scheme of things. So small asking for one

892
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: music video to be removed in the scheme of things,

893
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: what is that, you know? I feel like that is

894
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: such a small ask that a survivor has clearly made,

895
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: and they're just able to say no. I want to

896
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 1: believe in a world where survivors can expect more, survivors

897
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: can expect dignity and respect and to be listened to

898
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: and meaningfully centered. And I believe Google has a chance

899
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: to do that that they're just giving away.

900
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 5: Right, And it's exactly what you were saying, that this

901
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 5: is a question of believing women respecting women. Let's say

902
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 5: it was considual, just for the sake of argument, And

903
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 5: she's like, I don't like this, because whatever happened beforehand

904
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 5: in this relationship, it was traumatic.

905
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 4: Please take it off. That should be enough.

906
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 5: That should be enough without having to regurgitate the same

907
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 5: experiences and tell them exactly how it hurt you, which

908
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 5: is also traumatizing. It shouldn't have to be that we

909
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 5: have to put on a fanfare for someone to believe

910
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 5: that we are in pain point blank.

911
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

912
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: I mean, we shouldn't have to scream just to be heard.

913
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: You know. Today this week's episode of my podcast There

914
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: Are No Girls with the Internet, we talked to a

915
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 1: survivor and an advocate, Alison Turcos, who was sexually assaulted

916
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: in a lift, and she talks so eloquently about how

917
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: she is to regurgitate the most traumatic, painful thing that

918
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: happened to her over and over and over again, and

919
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: that we create a world where that is supposed to

920
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: be the pathway for survivors to get justice. And I

921
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: don't think that survivors A owe you their stories or

922
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 1: B should have to relive this pain just to get

923
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: anyone to do something. YouTube has the power. They could

924
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: decide to take this one video down tomorrow. They take

925
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: things down all the time for all different kinds of reasons.

926
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 1: And I believe that making a survivor retell her pain

927
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: in this way to then do nothing is just Survivors

928
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: des are better, Survivors should be able to expect better.

929
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean that's an excellent point because as

930
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 2: someone who used to like upload YouTube videos a lot,

931
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 2: and they'd get taken down all the time because the

932
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 2: music was too close to other music. So it's like

933
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: we're clearly I've been thinking this whole time as we've

934
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 2: been talking about this, the messages that young girls are

935
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 2: picking up from witnessing this from a celebrity that they

936
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 2: and this is the response that she gets. And you know,

937
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: we care more about copyright infringement than survivors and how

938
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: that influences you and what you think is normal and

939
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 2: what if you're going to report, which again that is

940
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 2: very personal and complicated and does have a lot of

941
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: fallout often, but also just this idea of men getting

942
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 2: this kind of genius artistic card and the like women

943
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: that they've left behind, this path of trauma that they

944
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,439
Speaker 2: left behind that we've determined is okay because we've got

945
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 2: this art out of it. And that's what it takes.

946
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 2: And I've done I've done some work in acting before,

947
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: and it is very you will get that messaging hardcore

948
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 2: where it's like, but this is going to be great,

949
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 2: and this is going to launch your career, and this

950
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 2: is what it takes. This is what you have to

951
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: do because it's so competitive and oftentimes it's just like

952
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 2: an excuse to take advantage of you and then you'll

953
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 2: never hear from them again.

954
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: God, like if you were in a So that's how

955
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 1: it is in a lot of entertainment industries. Let's say

956
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: that you were an accountant and someone was like, well,

957
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: Joe is a really gifted accountant, so you're just gonna

958
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: have to put up with him sexually assaulting you and

959
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: physically abusing you and treating you horribly because he's just

960
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: a really talented accountant. Uh No. And it should be

961
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 1: the same way across industries. There shouldn't be these huge

962
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 1: card outs for men to get away with abusive behavior

963
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 1: and have that abusive behavior be repackaged and sold back

964
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: to us as genius.

965
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: No.

966
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: I completely agree that whether you are a musician, an actor,

967
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: or an accountant, there should be some clear standards for

968
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: how you are expected to behave. And you know, a

969
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: music video is a workplace. You know that's that has

970
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: a crew, It has people who are paid to be there,

971
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: and you know, there's just no excuse for that. And

972
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: I'm unwilling to accept that that's, you know, the marker

973
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: of genius, or that we have to put up with

974
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: men's powerful men, bad or abusive behavior to get great art. No,

975
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: I'm just unwilling. That's unacceptable to me.

976
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 3: Greed, Agreed, I can't wait. We gotta have a venting

977
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 3: session on what I need it.

978
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: Obviously I need it. I feel like we all do.

979
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 3: I can feel it in me. Well.

980
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 2: In the meantime, thanks so much for bringing this topic

981
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 2: to us, Bridget and giving it the nuance that it deserves.

982
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 3: Always appreciated. Where can the good listeners find you?

983
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: Well? I would love it if you listen to my podcast.

984
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: There are no girls on the internet. Not all of

985
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,919
Speaker 1: our conversations are about heavy, sad issues, but we would

986
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: love to have you listen. You can check it out

987
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 1: on this very network. iHeartRadio. Can follow me on Instagram

988
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: at Bridget Marie and DC or on Twitter at Bridget Marie.

989
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: Yes, and definitely do that and we can't wait to

990
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: talk some more Bridget.

991
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 3: Maybe we got some other things in.

992
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 2: The works coming up, very exciting, so look out for that.

993
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 3: Listeners.

994
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: If you would like to email us, you can. Our

995
00:51:58,120 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: email is Seputia mob Stuff at hurt me dot com.

996
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 2: You can find us on Twitter at most podcasts, or

997
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:03,839
Speaker 2: on Instagram a stuff owner I have told you. Thanks

998
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 2: is always to our super producer, Christina. We love you, Christina, Yes,

999
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 2: and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Underver totally production

1000
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,479
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeart

1001
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

1002
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 2: favorite shows.