1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x M Triumph 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. The murder that rocked a beautiful 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: seaside town on Cape Code. Fifteen years ago, forty secure 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: old Christa Worthington's, an accomplished fashion writer, was found murdered 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: in her rural home. She was stabbed through the chest. 6 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: Her two and a half year old daughter, Ava was 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: found unharmed near the body. She had taken her a 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: sippy cup and tried to feed her mother, and she's 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: trying to wake her mother up. The Cape had never 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: seen witnessed an event like this ever we started in 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: and upcoming. Serious questions remain about how police handled the 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: case and if they got the right man. A two 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: year old little girl was discovered with her mom's dead body. 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: This is a case I will never get as long 15 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,639 Speaker 1: as I live. These facts of a two year old 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: little girl there with her mother's cold, dead body. And 17 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: now more questions arise in the murder of Christa Worthington. 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: I may I see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank 19 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: you for being with us. I want to go straight 20 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: out to John Limley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. 21 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: I want to start, not with the brand new questions 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: about the murder of Christa Worthington's and how it came 23 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: to be in this exclusive area of Cape Cod there 24 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: in Truro, Massachusetts, that a little two year old girl 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: was there beside her mom's bloody body, cold and dead 26 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: in the floor. I want to start at the beginning, 27 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: not the new questions, but take me back to the 28 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: day her body was discovered, and I'm tall king about 29 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: a gorgeous young mom, Krista Worthington. John Linley tell me, yes, 30 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: Krista absolutely gorgeous and so talented when it came to writing. 31 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: She was a fashion writer for some of the top magazines, 32 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: of l being one of them. Now, Nancy, this has 33 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: all the makings of an Agatha Christie murder mystery. Only 34 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: this is real life and has real life uh tragedy 35 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: uh and consequences. Uh. Let's first set the scene. Truro is, 36 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: as you've said, a town in Massachusetts on the Cape 37 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: Cape Cod. If you know anything about the Cape, you 38 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: may be aware that the tip is Provincetown. The cape 39 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: sort of looks like a flexed arm, So if Provincetown 40 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: is the clinched fist. Truro is the wrist. Truro is 41 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: filled with unspoiled natural beauty, beaches, high sandy cliffs on 42 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: the ocean side. Uh, there's a beautiful lighthouse there. And 43 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: of the joys in Truro is exploring all of the 44 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: back roads, discovering small beaches and quaint properties that are 45 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: dotted all along. Now, this is during the summer. During 46 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: the winter, it's a ghost town. And this is the 47 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: time of year we're talking about. It was January six, 48 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: a bitterly cold winter day, and this former fashion writer, 49 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: Krista Worthington is found stabbed to death in her Cape 50 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: Cod house Don John Limley. An important fact we learned 51 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: from the nine one one call. Now we learn John 52 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: Limley that Krista Worthington is stabbed so forcefully that the knife, 53 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: the blade of the knife nicked the floor absolutely. And 54 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: the little baby girl is there with mommy's dead body, 55 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: trying to nurse, trying to nurse Christ's breast when she 56 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: was found. Take a listen and let's see what we 57 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: can learn from the nine one one call recorded. Where 58 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: are they? Okay, what the problem? It's Christ the Worthy, 59 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: but I don't know what happened. I think she fell down. 60 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure she did. I think she did. Okay, it 61 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: is nobody there. I just I'm a friend and I 62 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: just put through a tily a fresh fight to it 63 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: right on a three year old daughter with the thing 64 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: on her body. Okay, I'll better right, Thank you. Back 65 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: to you, John Limley. Let's go through the rest of 66 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: what we know. How was her body found? Well, the 67 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: body was found by a former boyfriend. Will discover in 68 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: due course that there is more than one former boyfriend 69 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: in the story. Tim Arnold uh was an author who 70 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: wrote a number of books, including a children's book, a 71 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: rather disturbing children book called The Winter Mythen's. Arnold and 72 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: Worthington dated for about a year, but then even after that, 73 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: he continued to help her take care of little Ava, 74 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: the little the little girl after their relationship ended. Now 75 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: it was Arnold who discovered Worthington's body at her home 76 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: and called police. Hold on just a moment, John Limley 77 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: joining me crime online dot Com investigative reporter along with 78 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, very well known psychoanalysts joining us out 79 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: of l A and crime scene expert. The director of 80 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: the Cold case Institute Cheryl McCollum, to see right there. 81 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: Cheryl assumed police would first suspect the person that found her, 82 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: the ex lover. Absolutely, you're gonna, you know, narrow that 83 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: circle right there on him, no doubt about it. He's there, 84 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: he can put himself at the crime scene. Um. The 85 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: now one one call though, helps him out a lot. 86 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: I mean, he found a straw, he found upset. Um. 87 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: He introduces the victim, immediately says who she is, and 88 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: then he says, I'm not sure what happened to her, 89 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: if she fall or whatever. So if that helps well, Also, 90 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: we know I want to get your analysis of the 91 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: crime scene, Cheryl, but we also know and John Limley 92 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, but her cell phone was 93 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: left on the kitchen counter with one digit punched in nine, 94 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: as if she were trying to call nine oneyl The 95 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: crime scene is very telling, Nancy. The doors kicked in, 96 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: but before you get to the door, there's longings outside, 97 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: there's some glasses, there's some socks, there's a beret a hat. Um, 98 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: So it looks like there was an issue outside. Looks 99 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: like she might have tried to run in the house, 100 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: locked the door and called her help, and the doors 101 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: violently kicked in. You can see a lot of damage 102 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: on that door, and then again the result of the 103 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: world on the outside of the door. Yeah, I mean 104 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: the wait a minute, tell me again, and I agree 105 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: with you, by the way, but I want Bethany and 106 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: Limley and Alegic to hear your reasoning as to why 107 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: you think some sort of confrontation started outside. Items are 108 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: thrown about there, scattered in the yard. And again the 109 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: way the door is kicked in would leave you to 110 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: say the door was locked, dead bolted, And on top 111 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: of that you have her trying to call down one one, 112 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: so she knew there was an issue um prior to 113 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: someone gaining entry. Now, when you look at the door, 114 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: the door frame itself is damaged greatly, So it's really 115 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,239 Speaker 1: imperative to understand to get a door like that open. 116 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: I mean, these old houses in Cape Cod, they're sturdy 117 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: there wrong, So you're talking about somebody having to kick 118 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: probably Northern you know, more than one time to get 119 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: that door open and then get to her. So she 120 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: wasn't able to do much except get to the phone 121 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: and punched the one number in. But her stab wound 122 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: there's one, but like you've already said, it went all 123 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: the way through her and was able to penetrate the floor. 124 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: So the fourth of what was done to her in 125 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: that moment um horrific violence sank. Well, you know, Krista 126 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: Worthington is nobody's idiot. Christa fouled dead in her true Row, 127 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: Massachusetts home, bitter cold outside. It was January six. She 128 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: grew up as an only child in Massachusetts with her father, 129 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: Toppy Worthingtons, and the mother, Gloria. She went to Vassar College. 130 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you gotta be smart to get 131 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: into Vassar, and the years following that she became a 132 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: very well known fashion writer working for Woman's Wear Daily. 133 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: You know, uh. She also worked for New York Times 134 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: in L magazine, also with some other international publications. But 135 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: Sheryl McCaw all, hum, you just can't like walk into 136 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: Women's Wear Daily or the New York Times or Vassar 137 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: College and say, hey, I want to work here. It 138 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: doesn't work like that. You know. I would have loved 139 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: to have gone to Vassar, but they weren't gonna have it. 140 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: So again you're talking about no, they were not interested 141 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: in us no offense to them. That Um, okay, you 142 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: know what, I'll stay with Mercer and n y U 143 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: and call it a day. Okay, Vassar, you know I 144 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: don't have a chance of that. But this, this Kusta 145 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: Worthington was no idiot. Now back to the baby baby Ava. 146 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: Do we know John Linley who's the dad of baby Ava? Yes, 147 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: we do. Indeed, that is Anthony Jacket. He's known as 148 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: Tony Jacket. Uh. He's a man that's quite popular, very 149 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: well known around Provincetown and Truro. In fact, he's known 150 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: as the Shellfish Constable. It was his job to enforce 151 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: fishing laws and make sure fisherman had the proper And 152 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: that's a big deal there because in Truro that's what 153 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: they're known for. They're known for their shell fishing, you know, 154 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 1: like you go to certain areas in the Northeast for 155 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: their lobster. Okay, that's when the first things that happened 156 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: when I went Dr Bethany and you were with me 157 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: on the airways when I first started Court TV, I 158 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: got taken out all up and down Long Island looking 159 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: for lobster. Okay, so apparently, uh, nobody thought the lobster 160 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: we had in Georgia was the real thing. Okay, so anyway, 161 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,599 Speaker 1: but I will say that it was darn good and 162 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: that that's the thing about Truro. It's known for shell fishing, 163 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,599 Speaker 1: quiet beaches, beautiful scenery, very pristine. So he kind of 164 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: had a big job there. He was the shellfish constable. Now, 165 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: earlier I heard John Limey say, and I didn't really 166 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: like the way he said it that she had had 167 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: several boyfriends. Well, who hasn't, So just throw me in 168 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: that hot So there you go. God to Bethany the baby. 169 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: The baby is still nursing, nursing the mom's breast and 170 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: she's lying there cold and dead. I just pray to 171 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: God the baby has no memory of this. What do 172 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: you think about embedded child memories. I think the baby 173 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: does have memories of this, and the memories could be 174 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: what we call in my field pre conscious and pre verbal, 175 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: meaning that the baby, who's now a little older, may 176 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: not have an actual visual image of another lying on 177 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: the floor with the stab wound, but may have a 178 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: sense of something bad having happened. And we know with 179 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: PTSD there are there's often recurrent intrusive thoughts a terrifying images. 180 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: So even if baby Eva doesn't have that clear recollection, 181 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: if something happens like there's a noise or she sees 182 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 1: an image on TV or watches a scary movie, there 183 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: could be an intrusive sense of some bad happening, a 184 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: sense of dread, a sense of foreboding. But it can 185 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: just be unformed and not clearly linked to the past. 186 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: I want to make a comment about the boyfriends, because 187 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: you were sort of laughing about how she had all 188 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: these boyfriends. I wasn't laughing. I wasn't laughing. I was 189 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: laughing about me having all the Okay, you know what, 190 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: can I just say no offense to you guys, But 191 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: thank god I married David Lynch. He is a saint. Okay, 192 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: he helps me with the children. My mom has moved 193 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 1: in with us after my dad passed away. He is 194 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,599 Speaker 1: a saint. And I also have with me Bethany. I 195 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: think I told you this. My nephew is building a 196 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: house with his new wife and their baby, and they 197 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: have also moved him and they have a cat and 198 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: a dog. I have a cat and a dog. And 199 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: Lucy got to guinea pigs for her birthday, so this 200 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: house is rocking. Can I tell you that that's defible 201 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: new TV show for you? But the rooting Abbey and Chloe, 202 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: the guinea pigs who fight incessantly all night a long. 203 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: Let me tell you, the only time I see my 204 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: husband was passing Anti in the trash. So maybe that's 205 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: a good thing. But what I'm saying, he's a saint, 206 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: and there's not a darn thing wrong with having a 207 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: paraded boyfriends. That's what it took to make me realize 208 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: he was the one. Okay you wanted to say mathany Okay. 209 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: What I was saying is that she had very cohesive 210 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: relationships with the men she dated. One of her ex boyfriends, 211 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: the one who discovered the body, actually was helping her 212 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: raise baby Eva, the shellfish constable Tony Jacket. She had 213 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: a very cohesive relationship with him after that affair ended. 214 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get more into that relationship. And yet 215 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: the perpetrator, who ever perpetrated this crime, had some violent 216 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: encounter with her outside of the house. According to Cheryl McCollum, 217 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: kicked in the door accosted her before she was able 218 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: to finish daily. This was not an acquaintance rape that 219 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: was my point. Because she had boyfriends with whom she 220 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: was in good relationships. I can't imagine any of them 221 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: having done this. You know what, that's a very good 222 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: point to Cheryl McCollum. You know the fact that I 223 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: don't mean that you're still dating or or anything like that, 224 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: but the fact that you're on good relations with your 225 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: ex is I think it indicates a certain stability of 226 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: mind on your part, you know, like hateful and vengeful 227 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: and stalking and crazy and no, it just didn't work out. 228 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: You moved on absolutely, And a couple of them, you know, 229 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: the men, they might have thought there's a chance to 230 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: maybe rekindle and get back together. This seems to me, 231 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: with the drag marks outside and the glasses and the 232 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: hat and the socks, this looks like someone that surprised 233 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: her outside and whatever started it started outside and led 234 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: inside and that's where it was concluded. I want you 235 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: to listen to this, Cheryl. Okay, we're getting a peek 236 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: as to who Kristin Worthington was in life. Take a 237 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: listen from our friends at ABC as they catch her 238 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: friends discussing Kristin Worthington. Listen, Krista was the only child. 239 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: She grew up in hang A, mass which is south 240 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: of Boston, kind of Tony suburb. Father was Harvard educated lawyer, 241 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: and it was a very privileged upbringing. After high school, 242 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: Christa went to Vassard. I was a Vassar classmate of 243 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: Krista Worthington. Krista and I were in this English thesis class. 244 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: Krista was someone you would know because she was so short, 245 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: but interesting looking and pretty. She was brilliant in class 246 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: through the first few decades of her life outside of 247 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: college were high fashion, high society. She began a career 248 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: in fashion man. She actually was a bureau chief in 249 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: Paris for Women's Wear Daily. She wrote for all the 250 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: major magazines, Cosmo, Copper's, Bizarre, New York Times, she was 251 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: the EL Magazine. I met Christa when we were editors 252 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: together at EL Magazine. Probably it was kind of an 253 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: ongoing party disguised as a publication. She interviewed people like 254 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: Eve sant Laurent, Martha Stewart's. She even dated Anderson Cooper's 255 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: brother Chris's writing, Oh, she could make anything just sound 256 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: like magic. The most boring thing in the world was 257 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, fresh and exciting, smooth and refined 258 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: pro style the head scarf. The head scarf reveals as 259 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: it conceals. The louder the go away message, the more 260 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: audible the come hither. Isn't that great? I want to 261 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: pause very briefly with those words in mind about Krista 262 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: Worthington's in life. It just seems so ironic that we 263 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: are talking about her death and her baby Ava and 264 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: trying to sift through the clues left behind now and 265 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: I hear her friends speaking so appointed lee about her. 266 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: Our program today would not be possible without our partners, 267 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: and I consider them, along with you listening and joining 268 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: us today, our partners in a fight against crime, and 269 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: I want to thank them first. If you're like everybody else, 270 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: you probably haven't said no very much to sugary sweets 271 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: during the holiday season. 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As Cheryl McCullum from Coal Case Institute 303 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: has pointed out, this clearly started outside the door and 304 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: entered into the home. Her little baby girl a even 305 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: found nursing her mom, lying cold and dead in the floor. 306 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: But I want you to hear from a very important 307 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: player in this In this scenario, it's Tony Jacket, the 308 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: so called Shellfish Constable, one of her previous boyfriends. Listen 309 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: to what he says. I got the door a little bit. 310 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: I think there was a time that she asked me 311 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: to do something up at the house, and that was 312 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: how when I got to be more friendly with His 313 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: title was shellfish constantly. He really was sort of the 314 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: police of the fish in the area. He was good 315 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: looking and dashing. People talk about his thick, black curly hair. 316 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: Tony was the kind of guy that women wanted and 317 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: men wanted to be. Before you know it, he was 318 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: going over to her house for tea. I remember he 319 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: can go home, go home, and I lo tune to 320 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: write to drive with. And then of course it became 321 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: a little deeper. I think I got caught up in 322 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: the idea of a romance. It was just exciting. Ye know. 323 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: The thing that makes the relationship with Tony kind of 324 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: tricky is that he had been married for twenty seven 325 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: years and had six kids. If there was a sweeter 326 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: person on earth between the hours of eight and nine fifteen, 327 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: I would not believe it. Tony became tender and we 328 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: were made new spell bound. I love him. It's a 329 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: small town. You're nervous, at least aware that you know 330 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: you could be seen. So you know to Dr Bethany Marshall, 331 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: psychoanalyst joining me out of l a. Dr Bethany, you 332 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,479 Speaker 1: know a lot of men would have been rageful at 333 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: that time that she announces, Hey, we're breaking up and 334 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: I'm pregnant. But it really truly doesn't seem to be 335 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: that way. No, Like I said earlier, she had very 336 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: cohesive relationships. What sur rises me is not only does 337 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: Tony Jacket have five children of his own at the 338 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: time of the affair, but after the affair concludes, he 339 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: decides to tell his wife. His wife forgives him, accepts 340 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: Tony back, and actually brings Christa, Worthington and Eva into 341 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: their family. In other words, the wife establishes good relationships 342 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: with Christa. So once again, you have a very stable, cohesive, 343 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: loving community. Like you said earlier, none of the like 344 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: the revenge, the anger, the stocking, all the things that 345 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: we hear in unstable relationships. This town really has so 346 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: much stability in the community. And then I go back 347 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: to the crime scene that Cheryl is painting for us, 348 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: this rageful encounter, the door being kicked in a bloodied scene, 349 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, a knife that is plunged so forcefully into 350 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: che us that it actually nixed the floor. Whoever did 351 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: this was an outsider in this community. And by an outsider, 352 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: I don't mean that this person lived outside the town. 353 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: But I don't know that I agree with you that 354 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: this had to be an outsider, because you know, domestic 355 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: violence takes a lot of very ugly forms. But uh, 356 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, I'm also not saying that I think 357 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: it's Tony Jacket, And I'm also saying that I don't 358 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: think it's Tim Arnold because when I hear him on 359 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: the nine one one call, and let me point out 360 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: also police first suspected him, as I would have to 361 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: after years and years of prosecuting and investigating. But he 362 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: was cleared. He was cleared by police. But I still 363 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: don't think you can rule out a domestic Well, Nancy, 364 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: I kind of agree with Dr Anthony and this one 365 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: in the reason is I just throw me to the walls, 366 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: go aheads. I refer care. Here's my reasoning. You have 367 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: a violent scene outside where somebody has been drugged and 368 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: you know article of clothing have been removed because of 369 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: some scuffle. Then you've got the door violently kicked in. 370 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: She's clearly thankfully assaulted, but only half mood and one 371 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: one stab wounds. If this were domestic, that would have 372 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: been multiple, and it would have been from the chest, 373 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: in the neck area or the abdomen. Here you have 374 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: one not even in the heart, in the lungs. So 375 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: to me, it does seem like somebody that she was 376 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: not romantically involved with for a long period of time, Okay, 377 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of coming over to your side, And 378 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: I was not saying that it was domestic. I was 379 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: just saying that I wouldn't rule it out because of 380 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: what I see. Absolutely not go ahead and take that 381 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: leap of faith. But I'm going to wait on some 382 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: actual evidence. Okay, Um, let's go back to John Limley. Okay, then, okay, 383 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: we we know we've ruled out Tony Jacket, the father 384 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: of Ava. We know we've ruled out Tim Arnold, the 385 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: former boyfriend that writes the children's book that's still helping her, 386 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, raise Ava. These guys are still in her life, 387 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: I think in a positive way, helping her. All right, 388 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: So then what happens Limly well, as you can see, 389 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: the list of suspects is getting longer and longer as 390 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: time goes by. Essentially, before all is said and done, 391 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: every male in the community, and at the top of 392 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: the list, as you've said, were these ex boyfriends, but 393 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: a surprising person at the top of the list. I 394 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: hope you're not trying to say she's slept with all 395 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: these guys, because that's kind of what it sounds like. 396 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, And I don't need well, I 397 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: guess not. I don't need to dig my whole any 398 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: deeper you're digging. You're a great with your teeth. Okay, 399 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: go ahead. Well. Also at the top of the list 400 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: for investigators, Christa's father was even questioned in the case. 401 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: He question, well, uh, this seventy two year old dad 402 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: had been having a relationship with the twenty nine year 403 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: old Boston former prostitute and heroin addict. It just never ends. 404 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: And Krista, wait a minute, wait a minute, what what white, white, 405 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: white Excuse me, John Limley, Uh, Cheryl, I think you'll 406 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: agree with me that we need to shrink. Dr Bethany Marshall, 407 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: what is wrong with men? It's not that I hate them, 408 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: but what's a seventy nine year old man doing driving 409 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: into town meeting up with a twenty seven year old hooker? 410 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know what, Um, that's just wrong on 411 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: so many levels? What is wrong with them? Uh? Have 412 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: a hard time answering that one. I think the operative 413 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: word is hooker? Um? Maybe said, is a seventy two 414 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: year old man going to be able to plunge a 415 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: knife into a woman's chest? I mean really? And his daughter? 416 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: And so wait a minute, John Lmley, Hey, what did 417 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: they think? He was having a fight an argument with 418 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: Chris to over the hooker. He cares Kristin here's if 419 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: he has a hooker, Go go go just be mad 420 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: if you did. Krista was understandably a little shaken by 421 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: this relationship and had had a number of arguments with 422 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: her father about his supporting this woman. And so investigators wondered, well, 423 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: maybe because Christa is making such a fuss over this relationship, 424 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: either the dad, maybe the twenty nine year old had 425 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: decided to remove her from the so far fetched. But 426 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: you know what, Cheryl, I give an a plus to 427 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: the police for investigating it, because what you don't want 428 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: is when you do catch the real killer it comes 429 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: up in trial. It could have been the dad and 430 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: his horcer girlfriend that he's supporting. I'd be mad too. 431 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: My father's outspending my grandchildren's inheritance on a hooker. Hello, 432 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: she that hooker looks at him and all she sees 433 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: is a big a T M machine. So uh so 434 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: why not? I'm okay with her being mad at him? 435 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: You know what? That was one of those situations where 436 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: they're good time of investigating this case is being wasted 437 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: because she clearly did not put seminal fluid on this syctum. 438 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: So it's a big waste of time. Okay, there you go. 439 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: That is the turning point. The seminal fluid that sperm, 440 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: DNA possible sex possible rate John Lemley seminal fluid catch 441 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: me up. Yeah, this is one of the things that 442 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: has really kind of uh confused investigators because the seminal 443 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: fluid is degraded to the point, uh where you know, 444 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: someone that is well versed in this area of study. 445 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: The tails of the individual sperm had broken off, so 446 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea that gives you the age 447 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: of the sperm. That gives you the age of the sperm. 448 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: And so they're not the first thing to break off 449 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: of a sperm. Think of a sperm. A sperm it 450 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: is zoa is looking like a shrimp, okay, or a 451 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: little a little tadpole with a head and a little 452 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: body and a tail. The first thing that breaks off 453 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: when it starts as time past hours past, the first 454 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: thing to break off is the tail. Okay, that will 455 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: happen what would you say, uh, would you say, Cheryl, 456 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: between seven and twelve hours or maybe five to twelve hours. 457 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: What would you say to that? I would say between 458 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: five twelve and then the head breaks off and then 459 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: the sperm totally degenerates. Although you can still get d 460 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: N A, you don't have the sperm intact, so all 461 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: is not lost just because the sperm starts to degenerate. 462 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: It's all degenerated by an about thirty six to seventy 463 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: two hours. But you can still get DNA no matter what, 464 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: whether it's degenerated or not. So we find sperm without 465 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: a tail. The only significance to that is that can 466 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: date the you know as hours were talking about hours 467 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: that the sperm got there, all right, So they find 468 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: seminal fluid on an inner body. The tail is gone, 469 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: so it's been let's just say five hours ish. It's 470 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: very inexact, okay, John, Then what happens well? John Linley 471 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: joining US Crime Online investigative contributor reporter, Go ahead, John. 472 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: DNA tests were conducted on really any guy that would 473 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: submit a sample. They even had police had stations set 474 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: up at at least three different restaurants around town where 475 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: people could come in and voluntarily have their their cheek 476 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: swab for DNA. Initially, there was simply no match, and 477 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: the killing remained unsolved for three years until there was 478 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: a surprise arrest. UH investigators had a DNA hit and 479 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: the results left really everyone stunned. What a break in 480 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: the case. A three years pass after Krista Worthington found 481 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: dead in her floor, her baby girl Eva trying to 482 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: nurse the mom's dead body, and d NA stations set 483 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: up at restaurants and other locations in town. Everybody signing 484 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: up to take DNA to prove they are not the 485 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: one that killed Krista Worthington, and then out of the blue, 486 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: a match. What does it prove? Quickly? Thank you to 487 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: our partners making our investigation into the murder of Christa 488 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: Worthington possible. It's super beats. Everybody's talking about super foods, 489 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: nutritionally dense foods, super beneficial to your health. Did you 490 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: know that beats are one of the most powerful superfoods, 491 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: loaded with an important nutrient to increase your blood flow 492 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: and hence your energy. But who wants to eat a 493 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: pound of beats every day? 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All of Christa's friends and family members 557 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: started asking who in the world is Christopher McGowan. No 558 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: one knew the name, No one knew Chris McGowan. Well, 559 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: it turns out that McGowan was Christa's garbage man. McGowan, 560 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: Worthington's former trash collector, was placed at the scene by 561 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: that d na UM. In a disputed statement mc gowan 562 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: that he gave to police, he admitted having sex with Worthington. Eventually. 563 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: There were a number of stories he told and uh, 564 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: even having a part in beating her. So that was damning, 565 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: to say the least. What did you say about beating her? 566 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: He even it admitted that he took part in beating her. 567 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: He so the trash collector, Chris McGowan, who was on 568 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: her route, says he beat her. So let me understand this. 569 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: So he says he beat her. He has sperm is 570 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: on her body and her hot mintens whatever or outside 571 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: the front door and all over the yard, and the 572 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 1: door is kicked in, she's covered in sperm, she's stabbed dead, 573 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: with her baby in the home. And he says they 574 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: had consensual sex. Is that my understanding? Is that correct? 575 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: John Lemley? It is indeed. Um. He went on to 576 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: blame the fatal stabbing, as I said eventually, because there 577 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: were a number of stories he told over time. He 578 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: blamed that on a friend of his, Jeremy Freremy Frasier. 579 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: Jeremy Frasier is a friend of Chris McGowan's, and he 580 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: admitted to being with McGowan at a bar on Friday, 581 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 1: two days before Christa's body was found. He stated that 582 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 1: he separated from McGowan later that night when they left 583 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 1: the bar and he stayed at a friend's house. He 584 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: denies he ever went into the home, and nothing in 585 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: the home to Cheryl McCullum indicates he was ever there. 586 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: No fingerprints, know anything correct, No, nothing, But Nancy, you 587 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: know this perpetrator does admit to having takes with her 588 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: on Thursday. But again to your point, when she's found 589 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: on Sunday, burn doing that up, No, because you've still 590 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: got the sperm intact, and that's where the tails the 591 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: body and the head of the sperm take on critical significance, 592 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: because the sperm or in intact minus the tail. What 593 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: does that say, Cheryl McCullum. And it was less than 594 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: no question about it, less than thirty six hours, no 595 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: question about it. No way. Probably probably less than that, 596 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 1: probably if only the tails were breaking off, probably less 597 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: than thirty six hours that the so called sex and 598 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: I'm doing air quotas happened because there's no doubt in 599 00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: my mind that this was a rape and a murder. 600 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: But hold on, I want you to listen to the 601 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: very latest. Take a listen to what Chris McGowan's father 602 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: and others say who he was and why he's not 603 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: the killer and he wanted to be friends with everybody. 604 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: I'm Roy mccallwen um, the father of Chris mcallwyn I'm 605 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: saying to myself, Christopher McCowen is a player, he's not 606 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: a murderer. And then when I read about the knife 607 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,919 Speaker 1: and the woman's chest stuck it so hard where we're 608 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: stuck to the floor, I said in the wind the 609 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,280 Speaker 1: word that Chris Christopher loved his job. He always wanted 610 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: to move up when he get his own truck, and 611 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: he wanted to like partner with his bass. So I 612 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: thought that was great. I met with Chris McCowen. In 613 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: my mind, he was not a person capable of this 614 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: type of crime. There was no motive. It's a guy 615 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: who was a father who loved children, Chris's daughter with 616 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: the same age as Aba. This is not a cold, deliberate, 617 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: calculating person. This is not a person who had a 618 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: reason to do harm to another. There are a number 619 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: of people who don't believe that Christopher McCowen could ever 620 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 1: would have done this, and that includes his boss. They've 621 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: got the wrong person. This person just would not do 622 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: that when he would get in an argument with another 623 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: driver over some silly thing and Chris would just walk 624 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: away from it. Okay. Not only that, ABC's Sunny Huston 625 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: also speaks to McGowan from behind bars. I don't believe 626 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: a word of this. Listen Global Killing. We paid call 627 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: from Hi Chris. Let's go back to how this all started. Okay, 628 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: and the garage man, you know, I get by everybody tells, 629 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, get to talk to them briefly. He asked 630 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: me to come in the house and to look at 631 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 1: the Christmas Street. Were you attracted to her? Yeah? Standing 632 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: close enough, consentity were heard, you know, and one thing 633 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: you read to another. What do you mean one thing 634 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: led to another. It's just it was just a mutual 635 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: thing between two people. Again, and we started kissing and 636 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: we winded up in and up having times. Were you 637 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: intimate with Krista the night before she was murdered? That 638 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: that's not his original story, wasn't, Cheryl McCollum. Nancy wasn't 639 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: his original story? And also the sperm was found outside 640 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,800 Speaker 1: the body and inside of her body, so again she 641 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: didn't shower or anything either. Now, what is the significance 642 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: as this ferm is outside and inside her body? What 643 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: does that say to you? Again? This sounds like an 644 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: assault to me. This occurred on a kitchen floor where 645 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: her two year old right there. She's only half undressed. 646 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: This does not sound like a consensual romantic interlude. He 647 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 1: gives the story that you know, he's delivering or collecting 648 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: the trash, and she basically comes on to him. Okay, 649 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: only and you left out the beating, You left out 650 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: the beatings. We're not there yet. He only admits to 651 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,360 Speaker 1: that later, but only in Playboy does this happen? Gentlemen 652 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 1: um that this you know, beautiful Vassar Graduated just sitting 653 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: on her phone poarts, waiting for you to come by 654 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: to collect the trash, and she just has to have 655 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,800 Speaker 1: you write that moment, that very instant because you're just 656 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: so freaking attractive she can't control herself. Not ever has 657 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: that happened in the history of the world, gentleman. So 658 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: when we hear it, every woman goes m I think 659 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,839 Speaker 1: he killed her and raped her, and all the guys 660 00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: are saying that doesn't happen. It does. That happened. It does, 661 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: And I can be very firm about that. Did I 662 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: hear Dr Bethany Marshall chime and go ahead, Bethany, It 663 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,320 Speaker 1: does not happen, Absolutely not. The fact this woman was 664 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:17,319 Speaker 1: so polished, so sophisticated, Her writing was revered, as she said, 665 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: she was a Vasser graduate, she was the the Paris 666 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: editor of Women's Where Daily. She was so sophisticated. You know. 667 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: When I listened to this Chris McGowan, one of the 668 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: things I hear is him confessing to what he did 669 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: and then minimizing it. So he'll say, um, I got 670 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: with her instead of I raped her. I He'll say 671 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: he said I beat her rather than I stabbed her. 672 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: So everything is the minimization of the act. I think 673 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: it's quite significant that the semen is also on the 674 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: body because it speaks to the mode of the sex attack, 675 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: which is that it was very rageful, and what I 676 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: imagine might have happened is that he beat her, rendered 677 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: her unconscious, raped her, and then masturbated on her, and 678 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: then when he stabbed her through the lung. I think 679 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,919 Speaker 1: the most horrifying part of this, besides baby Eva being 680 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: present for this entire sex attack, is that she must 681 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: have struggled for hours before she died. This is the 682 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: This is the sad thing to me because he didn't 683 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: stab her through the heart. He stabbed her through the lung. 684 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: So this is a very painful, torturous, long death process 685 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: for her. You know, he is now saying that, as 686 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: he elaborates quote, it was just a mutual thing between 687 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 1: two people. We started kissing and then we wind it 688 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: up ended up having sex, Okay, and he admits beating her, 689 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: And I'm just telling you, John Limley, the only reason 690 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: he changed his story from consensual set on Thursday night 691 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: to sex the night before whatever he changed it to 692 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: is because his defense lawyers said, forensically, Thursday nights impossible 693 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: because the sperm has not degraded. This just happened a 694 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,240 Speaker 1: couple of hours before, so we gotta work on that story. 695 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,399 Speaker 1: So he changed his story and now he's speaking from 696 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: behind bars, whining that he wished she had taken the stand. 697 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,839 Speaker 1: He didn't take the stand and subject himself to cross 698 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: examination because he would be cut up, sliced up like 699 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: a Thanksgiving turkey on the stand with his lies. But oh, 700 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: it's okay to get on the phone with the reporter 701 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: and just blah blah blah blah blah and tell your 702 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: story without anybody stopping you and confronting you on your lies. 703 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: And it's not just his lies, John Limley. We've got 704 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: a dead mother and a child growing up without her mother, 705 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,240 Speaker 1: and this guy's sitting on his rear end behind bars, 706 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: lying into a phone receiver. I don't like it, Limly right. 707 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: During McGowan's lawyers contended that sure his client's DNA was present, 708 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: but that was because of this consensual sex air quotes. 709 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: McGowan even admitted to beating Krista, but said that he 710 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with her murder. In the end, 711 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 1: the jury did not buy this one bit, and McGowan 712 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,280 Speaker 1: was found guilty of first degree murder, rape, and burglary 713 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,280 Speaker 1: and is now serving three concurrent terms of life in prison. 714 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,319 Speaker 1: After being found guilty, lawyers are working at this very 715 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: moment to try to bring this case back to trial. 716 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 1: You know what, here's my fear. Cheryl McCollum. Just as 717 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: we saw in the highly popular podcast serial about Uh, 718 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: the murder of a young girl at the hands of 719 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: odd non sayed, it gathered so much ground there is 720 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: motion for new trial activity. Um. Not only that you 721 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: saw making a murderer with Stephen Avery, the highly biason. 722 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: I covered the disappearance of Teresa Halback, the young um 723 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: photographer that was murdered by Stephen Avery. And he lied 724 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,920 Speaker 1: to me to my face about what happened the hours 725 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: leading up to her death. I mean he lied to me. 726 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: Why lie to me? And then he contradicted his own 727 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: his own story to police. I mean he lied through 728 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 1: his teeth. That's what I'm saying is that when stories 729 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: are publicized and you're hearing a let me just say, 730 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:41,840 Speaker 1: journalist review of what happened, you're not hearing all the 731 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: facts a jury heard. And what's concerning me about him 732 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,959 Speaker 1: now saying, oh, I want any try all I should 733 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 1: have testified what it could have should have all right, 734 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,240 Speaker 1: the evidence is overwhelming and I don't want this daughter 735 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 1: going through this again. I know what it's like to 736 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: be a crime victim. And that's one of the last 737 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,480 Speaker 1: things on earth I would want is to have to 738 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,759 Speaker 1: relive that murder trial. Well, let's just bring everybody up 739 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: to date. He did not testify, but he did get 740 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: a chance to talk to that judge. And when he 741 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: had his chance, he said, and I quote, I never 742 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: meant for this to ever take place. He didn't say 743 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: he didn't do it. Well, put I want to hear again, Alan, 744 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,600 Speaker 1: Please let me hear the voices of those who loved 745 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: her as they describe Kristin Worthington. Krista was the only child. 746 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,720 Speaker 1: She grew up in hang A, mass which is south 747 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 1: of Boston, kind of Tony suburb. Her father was a 748 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,800 Speaker 1: Harvard educated lawyer and it was a very privileged upbringing. 749 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 1: After high school, Cristal went to Bastard. I was a 750 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:57,279 Speaker 1: Vassar classmate of Cristin Worthington. Krista and I were in 751 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,279 Speaker 1: this English thesis class. Crista was someone you would know 752 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,880 Speaker 1: because she was so short, but interesting looking and pretty. 753 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: She was brilliant in class. She began a career in 754 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,439 Speaker 1: fashion man She actually was a bureau chief in Paris 755 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:15,760 Speaker 1: for Women's Wear Daily. She wrote for all the major magazines, Cosmo, Harper's, Bizarre, 756 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: New York Times, she was the El Magazine. She interviewed 757 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 1: people like Eve Sant Laurent, Martha Stewart's. She even dated 758 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 1: Anderson Cooper's brother, Chris is writing, Oh, she could make 759 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 1: anything to sound like magic. The most boring thing in 760 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 1: the world was all of a sudden, fresh and exciting. 761 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: Let me ask you, John Limley, where is baby Ava 762 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,520 Speaker 1: as I've always called her? Where is she now? She 763 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,799 Speaker 1: has been living with a dear friend of Christia's now 764 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: for the vast majority of her life. She's eighteen. Friends 765 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,760 Speaker 1: say that she is well adjusted, she's a freshman in college. 766 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: That on the surf us you'd never know that she 767 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 1: had gone through this well. Investigators think she was with 768 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,680 Speaker 1: her her mom's dead body for about thirty six hours 769 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,839 Speaker 1: by the time uh she was discovered. That's a lot 770 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 1: to go through two and a half years old or not. 771 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,600 Speaker 1: But for her to be um just the stable young 772 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: woman that she appears to be is nothing short of 773 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 1: a miracle. You know that is a miracle. Dr Bethany. 774 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: A lot of crime victims put on a happy face, 775 00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:40,480 Speaker 1: but inside the knowledge that your mother was raped and 776 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,719 Speaker 1: murdered and that you were found sitting by her dead 777 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:50,879 Speaker 1: body in the floor. Is a baby, I mean, I don't. 778 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: I don't think that will ever go away to imagine. No, 779 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,279 Speaker 1: you can't because Nancy. No one can replace one's mother. 780 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,320 Speaker 1: I mean, your mother is the one who loves you, 781 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: who has your best interests at stake, who is very foundational, 782 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 1: provides what we call in my field, that secure base 783 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,239 Speaker 1: um which you can always go back to and from 784 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,440 Speaker 1: which you can go back out into the world, and 785 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,960 Speaker 1: nobody else can replace that. But on the other hand, people, 786 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,879 Speaker 1: human beings are resilient, and that's what I want your 787 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 1: listeners to know that no matter what happens to them 788 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,719 Speaker 1: in their lives, even if their crime victims or they 789 00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 1: suffer trauma, that the human spirit is quite resilient. And 790 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 1: the most therapeutic thing that one can do after being 791 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,680 Speaker 1: a victim or the most therapeutic thing that could take 792 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,520 Speaker 1: place for baby Ava is to have secure relationships throughout 793 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 1: her life and ended so secure relationships that are healing 794 00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:52,359 Speaker 1: in our therapeutic I pray that what John Lenley has 795 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: told us is true. I pray that Ava is happy 796 00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 1: and healthy, in doing well and surrounding I love, and 797 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,760 Speaker 1: that her mother is watching over her every single minute 798 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,359 Speaker 1: of every single day. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off 799 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:10,799 Speaker 1: goodbye friend,