1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarckley and Android 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: Remembering the backdrop of geopolitics this week, what we were 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 2: just talking about with Courtney McBride, the President of the 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: United States preparing to sit down, it looks like in 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: person with Vladimir Putin to hammer out a deal or 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 2: a truce of some sort over Ukraine, having just days 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,319 Speaker 2: earlier threatened Russia with two nuclear submarines. He said, we're 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 2: steaming around Russian waters somewhere in case Vladimir Putin did 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 2: not pull back or Dmitri Medvedev's didn't stop putting wild 14 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: ideas on social media. It also comes just a couple 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 2: of weeks after the President talked about the nuclear threat 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: in Pakistan in India when they were staring each other 17 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: down in across border skirmish. It all coincides with the 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: eightieth anniversary. If you hadn't heard this, it was just 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 2: a couple of days ago the eightieth anniversary of the 20 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: bombing of Hiroshima. By the way, tomorrow is the eightieth 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 2: anniversary of the bombing of Nagasaki. Listen to President Trump 22 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: just a couple of weeks back, talking about the brinksmanship 23 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: that we saw between these two nuclear powers. 24 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: India Pakistan was probably going to end up in a 25 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 3: nuclear war. They kept, you know, they had they shut 26 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 3: down five planes in the last attack, and it was 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 3: back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 3: I called them and I said, listen, no more trade. 29 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 3: If you do this, you're not going to be good. 30 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 3: But they have both both powerful nuclear nations, and that 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 3: would have happened, and who knows where that would. 32 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 4: Have ended up. 33 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: This idea of speaking so loosely about the prospect of 34 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: another nuclear conflict on this planet brings us to a 35 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: new book by historian Garrett Graff, and it's one that 36 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: I want you to remember. 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 4: The Devil reached toward the sky. 38 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: This is an oral history, as you can see on 39 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 2: your screen here on YouTube and on Bloomberg Originals, the 40 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: oral history of the making and unleashing of the atomic bomb. 41 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: An incredible piece of work here, a piece of journalism, 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: and he's with us right now in studio, Garret Graf, 43 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 2: journalist's historian and author. It's wonderful to see you. Thanks 44 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: for coming to see me in person. 45 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me. 46 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: You said something really compelling the other day, a history 47 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 2: book that could be filed under the current events section 48 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: of your local bookstore. To what extent are we still 49 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 2: learning the lessons of eighty years ago? 50 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that part of the challenge of looking 51 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 5: back eighty years at Hiroshima and Nagasaki this week is 52 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 5: that in twenty twenty five we face we are closer 53 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 5: to the edge of nuclear danger than I think many 54 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 5: people realize, and that we are looser than we have 55 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 5: been for much of the last eight decades in between. 56 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,119 Speaker 5: You know, you mentioned India and Pakistan, the two largest 57 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 5: nuclear arsenals to ever come into open conflict earlier this year. 58 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 5: We've seen this year the US and Israeli raids on 59 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 5: Iran's nuclear program. We have seen in the last couple 60 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 5: of weeks, I mean barely even in the last couple 61 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 5: of hours, you know, nuclear saber rattling between the US 62 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 5: and Russia, both of which, by the way, are engaged 63 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 5: in a decade long multi trillion dollar upgrade to all 64 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 5: three legs of what you call the nuclear triad, the bombers, 65 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 5: the missiles, and the silo based ICBMs to carry these 66 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 5: weapons forward for generations to come. And the rising geopolitical 67 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 5: instability of the United States and questions about ourment to 68 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 5: international alliances is launching new conversations about nuclear proliferation in Europe, 69 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 5: in the Middle East, in Asia, even in countries like 70 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 5: Germany where it would have been once unthinkable. And I think, 71 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 5: you know, in a very weird moment, over the next decade, 72 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 5: we're probably going to see more countries joining the nuclear 73 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 5: club than we have ever seen before. 74 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: Well that's something too, is we have this domestic debate 75 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: right now about whether we should start opening more nuclear 76 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: power plants to feed the electricity needs of AI. 77 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 4: How big could this club get? 78 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 5: Well, I think one of I mean, you're seeing these 79 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 5: conversations in a lot of places, you know, in the 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 5: Middle East, you know, to counter the possibility of Iran 81 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 5: someday developing a weapon. You're seeing these conversations take place 82 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 5: in Asia as countries like Korea talk about, you know, 83 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 5: do they need their own nuclear umbrella in order to 84 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 5: secure peace with North kore You're seeing this in Europe, 85 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 5: you know, as the UK and France and other sort 86 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 5: of major European powers begin to think about, you know, 87 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 5: what does it look like if we can't count on 88 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 5: the American nuclear umbrella that we have counted on since 89 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 5: nineteen forty five. 90 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: You speak of umbrellas you wonder if Oppenheimer could have 91 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: ever envisioned the Golden Dome. 92 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, and obviously the you know, this is a project 93 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 5: that dates back to the Reagan years, if not, you know, 94 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 5: even earlier. And you know, the challenge of it has 95 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 5: always been nuclear weapons are you know, civilization destroying weapons. 96 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 5: I mean, there's something that is not like any other 97 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 5: weapon in the human arsenal, and we house the power 98 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 5: to use them in a very precarious system that in 99 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 5: the United States is in the hands of the President 100 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 5: of the United States himself. There is no second voice 101 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 5: in that system. A lot of people think, you know, oh, well, 102 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 5: surely the Secretary of Defense or the Chairman of the 103 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 5: Joint Chiefs has to agree with it, or the commander 104 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 5: or Strategic Command. No, the president launch can carry carries 105 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 5: that nuclear football with him wherever he goes, and can 106 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 5: launch nuclear weapons from anywhere that he is at any time. 107 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 4: A concerns general millihead. 108 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is something that we've experienced in our recent history, 109 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: at least the concerns thereof Let's talk about the book, 110 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: because so many people became sort of armchair experts on 111 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: the Manhattan Projects following the movie. I'd love to know 112 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 2: what you thought of that movie, by the way, but 113 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: you really bring out the scale of this project, the 114 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: secret cities in Tennessee and Washington State, hundreds of thousands 115 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: of Americans working on a project that they weren't necessarily 116 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 2: familiar with while it was happening. 117 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 5: Absolutely, and that to be Oppenheimer is a fabulous movie. 118 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 5: It's actually stunningly historically accurate for a movie. But I 119 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 5: think too often we over romanticize and oversimplify the story 120 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 5: of the Manhattan Project as the story of Jay Robert 121 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 5: Oppenheimer and his band of Mary physicists on a mesa 122 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 5: and Los Alamos. And what you come to understand when 123 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 5: you look at the history of the Manhattan Project is 124 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 5: the power and the majesty of it is in the 125 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 5: industrial might that the United States brings. You know, in 126 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 5: some ways it's a business story and to me. You know, 127 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 5: we talked so often in World War two history about 128 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 5: where it was fought, you know, Bastone, Omaha, Beach, l 129 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 5: A La Main, Guadalcanal, Lete Gulf. But World War Two 130 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 5: was one in the Ford Motor Company bomber factories and 131 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 5: Willow Run in Michigan. It was one in the shipyards 132 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 5: and landing craft factories of Higgins Industry in New Orleans. 133 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 5: And it was one in the rad lab in Mit 134 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 5: where radar and the proximity fus are developed. And the 135 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 5: lab of the Manhattan Project where we build the atomic bomb, 136 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 5: where we outbuild and outproduce Germany and Japan. 137 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 4: And use. 138 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 5: And you're right that the so much of the Manhattan 139 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 5: Project story is in takes place in Oakridge, Tennessee, and Hanford, Washington. 140 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 5: I spent a lot of time in the book telling 141 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 5: the stories of the voices and the workers in those places. 142 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 4: These are cities that. 143 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 5: You know, are carved out of remote mountain valleys in 144 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 5: Tennessee and desert and farm orchards in eastern Washington that 145 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 5: house one hundred thousand people a piece. You know, by 146 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 5: the end of World War two, Hanford Washington the largest 147 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 5: construction project in world War two in the United States, 148 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 5: and that these are facilities where we build the and 149 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 5: refine the uranium and the platonium. You know, we're building 150 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 5: thousands of houses a month to house these workers were 151 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 5: building factories, multiple football fields large. The bus system in Oakridge, Tennessee. 152 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 5: This blo on August sixth, nineteen forty five is the 153 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 5: one of the ten largest public transit systems in the 154 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 5: United States, and it serves a city that no one 155 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 5: knows exists and doesn't appear on any public map. 156 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 4: Incredible where the war was won. 157 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: Fascinating the way you put that, and everyone should understand 158 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 2: that this is a narrative history. You compiled, conducted and 159 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: compiled some five hundred different voices in this book, and 160 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 2: it reads so quickly you can't put this down, particularly 161 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: when you're inside the B twenty nine's. The way you 162 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: put that together was remarkable. With voices from the past. 163 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 2: You talked about the people who actually not just made 164 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: the bombs, but dropped the bombs. Paul Tibbett, Chuck Sweeney, 165 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: you talk about when they first saw Eojima through that 166 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 2: glass cockpit in the B twenty nine. 167 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 4: A lot of this hit home for me. 168 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: My grandfather fought on e Regima, like so many grandfathers 169 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: of people my age, to liberate those airfields used on 170 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: a mission like this. I also had the chance to 171 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 2: meet Chuck Sweeney and I flew in B twenty nine 172 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: with how a bunch of years ago on Cape cod 173 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 2: and they let him fly the plane. 174 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 4: By the way, his family was with him. 175 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: It was Fifi, one of only two flying B twenty 176 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: nine is left in the world, I believe, and he 177 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 2: was still so proud of what they accomplished, not just 178 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: the drama of what they encountered. And you talk about 179 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 2: how that they had to arm the bomb at altitude 180 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: just in case the plane was lost. 181 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, we we have imposed sort of eighty 182 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 5: years of sort of morality and you know, complicated vexing 183 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 5: questions on these missions. But what really stands out for me, 184 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 5: and as you said, you know, it's an oral history, 185 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 5: and so it's all in the first person, the voices 186 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 5: of the bomber crew, their memory of the mission of 187 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 5: the Anola gay in Hiroshima on August sixth, box car 188 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 5: to Nagasaki on August ninth. 189 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 4: Yes, and then. 190 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 5: In those final chapters of the book, this incredible jarring 191 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 5: juxtaposition of the celebration of the bomber Christ. 192 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 4: This is what I want to get to. We had 193 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 4: no idea what was going on the ground behind them. 194 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 5: Who you know, the Onola Gay lands back in Tinian 195 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 5: in the Marianna's Islands. Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the 196 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 5: Aola Gay, has medals, you know, pinned on his chest 197 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 5: on the tarmac. And then they go off to a 198 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 5: literal celebratory barbecue for their successful mission, you know, back 199 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 5: in Los Alamos, in Oakridge, in Hanford, huge parties to 200 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 5: celebrate the dropping of the atomic bomb, juxtaposed with what 201 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 5: is actually taking place back on the ground, first in Hiroshima, 202 00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 5: then in Nagasaki. These hurricane strength fire winds just dedrawing 203 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 5: and burning the city. Tens of thousands of people dead. 204 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 5: And I think you see in that sort of split 205 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 5: screen moving back and forth between the bomber crews and 206 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 5: the Manhattan Project and the survivors in Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Yeah, 207 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 5: the Manhattan Project is simultaneously one of humanity's greatest triumphs 208 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,119 Speaker 5: and one of humanity's greatest tragedies. 209 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 4: God, that is so true. This is so great. Spending 210 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 4: time with you. 211 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: We're officially going into overtime here, so give me a 212 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: couple of extra minutes. That dichotomy that you described is 213 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 2: something that's still talked about today. There are a lot 214 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: of people who feel we never should have dropped the bomb, 215 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: that it was in fact not necessary to win the 216 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: war against Japan. There were, in fact scientists, in many 217 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: cases Jewish refugees from Europe who said, this isn't why 218 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: we designed this bomb. That was for Berlin. But when 219 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: you talk to Chuck Sweeney or when I used to 220 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: talk to my grand father, they'd say, that's the only 221 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: reason you're alive. Yes, because we were preparing for a 222 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: Mainlin invasion that would have killed all of us. 223 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 4: Yep. So how do we rationalize it? 224 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: Yeah? 225 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 5: And this is where again you see the scientists really split, 226 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 5: because some of them are, as you said, you know, 227 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 5: the core of the Manhattan Project. They're all mostly Jewish 228 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 5: refugee scientists coming over from Europe who started this project, 229 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 5: who worked on it day in day out to stop 230 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 5: Adolf Hitler from getting the bomb first. Yes, and by 231 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 5: the time, and their reaction is not we shouldn't use 232 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 5: the bomb, it's that we're too late. It's you know, 233 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 5: I wish we had this bomb in forty four and 234 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 5: could have dropped it on Berlin. Since we missed that 235 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 5: and Hitler didn't get the bomb, let's not use it. 236 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 5: Then there are the scientists, and I quote some of 237 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 5: them in the book who are sort of like your dad, 238 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 5: who they have family members caught up in the war 239 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 5: who they can name. You know. One of the women scientists, 240 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 5: Leona Wood's Corps member of the Manhattan Project, you know 241 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 5: she's talking about her brother is a marine flamethrower on 242 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 5: Okinawa and he was headed to the Japanese Home Island invasion. 243 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 5: She knows he's alive because she invented the atomic bomb. 244 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 4: That's right. 245 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 2: And so these marines, for the most cases, who were 246 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: planning an invasion are suddenly tasked with disarming Japanese officers. 247 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: What an incredible historic turn. So it begs the question 248 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: garagraph if we hadn't used it, then would we have 249 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: ever used it? Or maybe a better way to ask 250 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: it is, if it weren't for using it, then would 251 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: we be preparing to use it now? 252 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 4: Well? 253 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 5: I think one, you know, one of the questions will 254 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 5: never really be able to answer. In the context of 255 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 5: history is is the dropping of the atomic bomb the 256 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 5: last act of World War Two? Or is it the 257 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 5: first act of the Cold War? And you know how 258 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 5: much of the US pressure and decision was really about 259 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 5: out demonstrating to the Soviets that we have this weapon 260 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 5: as we begin to think about the geopolitical landscape afterward. 261 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 5: I think it took using the bomb in combat for 262 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 5: US as a society, certainly for the US government to 263 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 5: recognize that this is not like any other weapon, that 264 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 5: this is not something that we should ever use lightly. 265 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 5: And in fact, it is Dwight Eisenhower as president who 266 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 5: really draws those first lines against in Korea, in the 267 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 5: Suez Crisis in other crises during his presidency, really makes 268 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 5: clear this is not like any other weapon, and we 269 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 5: can't ever use it, and it becomes the central, defining 270 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 5: organizing principle of international geopolitics ever since, to never use 271 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 5: these weapons again. And one of the reasons I wanted 272 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 5: to do this project right now for the eightieth as 273 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 5: we mark sort of the passing of the last survivors 274 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 5: of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is I think it's worth remembering 275 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 5: how terrible these weapons are and that it's up to 276 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 5: us in our time to carry forward their life's mission. 277 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 5: That they are the last survivors of an atomic bomb. 278 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 4: There is no reason to say another word. 279 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: That was beautifully put, and I'm so happy you came 280 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: to talk to us about it. The book again is 281 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: the Devil Reached toward the Sky, and you'll hear the 282 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: oral history, the actual first hand account of what that 283 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: looked like as this massive mushroom cloud rose even higher 284 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: in the altitude in the air than the B twenty 285 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: nine that dropped the bombs. It's dramatic, stark, piercing, historical, 286 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: narrative history from Garrett Graf. 287 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 4: Thank you again for sharing it with us. 288 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 5: Thanks so much for talking to us. 289 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 4: Great to have you here. 290 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: I'm Jill Matthew and Washington. Thank you for being with 291 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: us on Balance of Power. Thanks for listening to the 292 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you 293 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: haven't already Spotify. 294 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 4: Or wherever you get your podcasts, and 295 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: You can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC 296 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: at Noontimeeastern at Bloomberg dot com.