WEBVTT - Strange Behavior 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.480 This guy was like American psycho. 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:10.480 I can do something even more important, something larger. I 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:13.119 can become a serial killer and get away with it. 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.439 I have never seen from any case I've covered someone's 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.640 so completely devoid of anything internal. 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:31.600 This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:41.000 and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode five, Strange Behavior. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:45.920 a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideger and Gabriel Castillo. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.919 Over one hundred documents have been released by the Moscow 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.800 Police Department and another five hundred and fifty by the 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:59.480 Idaho State Police. Together, they don't just fill in the blanks, 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.840 reveal an even clearer and at times far more troubling 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:09.959 picture of this case. Crime analysts Body move In takes 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.280 us deep inside the files that focus specifically on Brian 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:19.000 Coberger's behavior, what his colleagues noticed, the patterns that emerged, 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:21.720 and the red flags that may have been hiding in 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:28.160 plain sight. Then behavioral analyst Robin Drake helps us connect 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:33.040 the dots, breaking down what these documents reveal about Coburger's mindset, 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.840 his decision making, and the strange behaviors that led up 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:42.160 to the murders. You'll hear Robin's theory on motive why 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.800 he thinks this seemingly promising PhD student took such a 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:50.720 dark turn. But first, let's start with Body move In 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.440 and Stephanie Leidecker as they guide us through some of 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:54.960 the most revealing files. 0:01:55.000 --> 0:02:01.320 Yet, all of these findings and files coming out publicly, 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:03.840 and we can't get through them fast enough. We're eating 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.520 them up as prd as possible. But it shows a 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.160 lot into his brain space while getting his PhD. 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:15.799 He's described by many as creepy, socially awkward, and domineering. 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:21.200 He frequently stared intensely at people. One woman counted nine 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:25.520 times during a class she saw him staring at her intensely, 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:26.960 like creepy, scary. 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:28.080 Like without a blink. 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.520 You know, times you might just be gazing in a 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.120 direction and you happen to be looking at a person 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.240 and it's so embarrassing. You're like, I swear I'm not 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.760 overly staring. But in this case, this was a repeat pattern, 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.560 and he wouldn't really blink. He would just be so 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:44.040 intensely staring. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.560 He exhibited this macho or puffed up demeanor, and he 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:52.280 always wanted to dominate every conversation he had. So you 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.880 if you and I were talking about the new Barbie 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.120 Doll okay that we all got we love this Barbie 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.560 Doll enter coburger, he would turn the conversation it is 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.560 something he's interested, and then dominate that conversation. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:04.800 Wow. 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.120 In one report, there was a guy and he said 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.840 that Brian wasn't really his friend, but he was more 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.320 than an acquaintance, so he's kind of in the in between. 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.760 And he got a ride from Brian Coberger and they 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.360 ended up being in his car for hours in the 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.240 parking lot, just talking, and Brian was venting to him, 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:24.519 saying that I don't you know, I don't have a 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.360 lot of guys to talk to, And then he said 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.520 he could walk into a bar and have any woman 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:30.079 he wanted. 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:32.639 Yeah, I mean, give me a break. This guy, he 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:33.920 couldn't get a girl. 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.760 Persistent complaints from women about his behavior. He made sexist 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:44.240 and belittally remarks. He denied man's plaining even exists. This 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.440 girl was and then the class was telling her something 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.960 about eyewitnesses get things wrong, and they were talking about 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:55.520 that and he basically told her she was wrong and 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.800 explained why she was wrong, which is fine, but apparently 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.400 he was man's plaining and the argument got so heated 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.520 that she left the classroom crying and heated and like 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.800 left everything behind. Wow he told a disabled gay student 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.400 he would only accept a physically perfect partner and would 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.960 she even consider procreating because of her disability. 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.919 Meaning because she had a disability, he thought maybe she shouldn't. 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.080 Like That's what he was implying, is that you're not 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:26.880 perfect enough to procreate. 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:27.360 Right. 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.200 He said in some of these classes that he was 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.640 in that he believed in like traditional roles, and he 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.039 believed in like traditional marriage. You know, he was homophobic. 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.080 He made homophobic comments. He had hostility towards women. He 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.960 was dismissive of all the female professors authority. He questioned 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.840 one's ability to grade because she was too foreign. He 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.719 was systematically late to classes taught by women. He was 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.960 never late to the male professor classes. There was even 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:58.120 a male professor who started letting his class out early 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.960 so that Brian could make it to his colleague's female class, 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.159 and Brian was still late to her class. Wow was 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:11.080 intentionally disruptive. He would leave class in the middle of 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.320 a woman speaking one of his professors and go get coffee. 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:16.440 Are you kidding me? He was dismissive. 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:20.520 It was so bad that people in classes that were 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.120 with Coburger started keeping a tally how many times he 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:28.640 was late to female professors classes versus the male professors. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:33.120 Female grad students often felt uncomfortable, harassed, or trapped. He 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.960 would block doorways, preventing them from leaving offices, and he 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:41.359 would like corner them, and the word was spatially trap 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.279 people in rooms and conversations, and then when you would 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.640 try to get away from him, he would follow you 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.479 and continue the conversation, sometimes following people all the way 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.320 to their car. And it got so bad. He allegedly 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.239 stalked a staff member, asked her out on a date, 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.279 and followed her to a car. She filed a civil 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.560 rights complaint with the university about this because he wouldn't 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:06.320 leave her alone. A cafe worker said that he knew 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.520 her name and scheduled despite never being told, and she 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.520 suspects that he tracked her for weeks in order to 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:15.880 figure that out. In order to figure that out right, 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:16.600 witness has. 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.320 Been the guy that's like sitting outside the restaurant staring 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.920 through the window from the outside, marking her shifts. 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:23.839 Think about that. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:24.880 How scary that is. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:30.279 Very Witnesses reported him showing up at women's homes or 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.680 being linked to suspicious incidents. Knocks on the windows, somebody 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:38.480 on a porch, somebody's underwear was stolen. This one lady, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.320 she's a student and she was in the court. She 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.040 invited everybody to her apartment for like some kind of orientation, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.839 including Brian Coburger. Then rumor started circulating that she's on 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.039 this drug and she has this disease and da da 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.240 dada whatever, and it comes from Brian Coburger. She finds out, well, 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.359 he went through her medicine cabinet when he was in 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.480 her bathroom at her house. This guy. In fact, one 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:04.839 of the professors said that she works with predators and 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.400 she recognizes them when she sees them, and he's definitely 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.880 going to be somebody that they hear about. Another one 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.640 said that he was probably going to be a future rapist. 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.080 And you know, some faculty even warned students not to 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.840 be alone with him. You know, I'm a little taken 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:23.480 aback by how obvious his like absolute disdain and disrespect 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.920 for women were. What were they thinking after the murders, 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.600 like did they question like, Oh my god, I wonder 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:31.960 if it could be him, Like I wonder like internally, 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:34.760 did any of them kind of go o, I don't know. 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.040 Here you are, you're getting your PhD. You're a student, 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:40.560 you know. 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.600 And also he has younger people underneath him like their 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.560 prey to him. At this point, this guy was like 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:50.560 American psycho. 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.480 We brought in Robin Drake, a retired FBI special agent 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:01.080 and former head of the bureau's Counterintelligence Behavioral and Aalysis program. 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:06.560 He's reviewed these documents detailing Brian Coberger's unsettling behavior and 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.960 shares his insight into why Coburger acted the way he did. 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.360 He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston. 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.080 To start off, I just I'd love for you to 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:19.840 tell us a little bit about you. What do you 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.240 specialize in? What's your background? 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:26.360 Yeah, so, Naval Academy graduate, Marine Corps officer from there. 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.960 I came in the FBI in nineteen ninety seven and 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.840 I was a counterintelligence agent. My job was recruiting spies 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:34.679 and I did it my entire career. I got on 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.160 our behavioral team for that as a team member, and 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.280 then I became the chief of that team, I taught 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:44.520 at Quantico all these advanced techniques for interpersonal relationships and 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.679 communication basically, and what that all boils down to is 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.160 I had with the FBI before I retired, over twenty 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.920 two years of understanding why humans do what they are 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:56.240 going to do. If you're going to recruit a spy, 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.040 you have to understand the world through their optic and 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.080 lens if they're going to have a relationship with you 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.280 and trust you with their life and betray their country. 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.200 So with that skill set, when I retired in twenty eighteen, 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.079 and even before that, I started getting called for because 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.400 everyone sees behavior in my background because chief of the 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.719 Beable House program, they and FBI behavior they know they 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.360 want me to give my thoughts and opinions on why 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.520 bad guys do bad things. I always got to covey 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.560 at everything. Not a licensed clinical physician, clinician or anything 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.960 like that. This is pure my background from my experiences. 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.239 So these documents, these complaints from his colleagues at WSU, 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.680 what do you glean from them? What do they say 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:35.240 about him? 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:39.400 So what we start seeing with him is exactly how 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:44.480 empty he is. There is nothing there. And what I 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.359 mean by that is, there are behaviors that are extremely psychopathic. 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:50.160 And when I worked and believe or not, even in 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.920 the world of counter intelligence, you dealt with psychopaths because 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:56.160 if someone's committee an espionage, generally espionage is not the 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.560 only thing going sideways in that person's life. And so 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.560 that high level of psychopay I saw it multiple times 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.080 both in my bureau career and obviously afterwards consulting on 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.840 these cases. And at the core of psychopathy, the highest 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.600 level of psychopathy, this is pure predator with empty shell 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.680 They're really only reacting to biological impulses and genetics, that 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.640 is it. And so I have never seen from any 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:22.079 case I've covered, someone so completely devoid of anything internal. 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.160 That's Coburger. Every interaction you see with him is the 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.160 reason why he creeps people out, because when we see creepy, 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.640 what it is is we're picking up as human beings 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.400 inconsistencies and behavior inconsistencies and the words that are being 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:37.840 setting the emotions that someone has. This I mean, we're 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.840 extremely attuned to our environment as a biological organism on 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.120 his planet's evolved for hundreds of thousands of years, and 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.319 so when we feel unsafe that's that creepy feeling and 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.800 unsafe means there's incongruence in the environment or the individual. 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:54.880 Coburger is the epitome of consistently incongruent because he has 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.000 no emotion and he has no idea how to act. 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.960 His ability to socialize and how have healthy regular conversations 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.319 and knowing boundaries with people that you don't have a 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:08.559 stronger relationship with obviously is again incapable of a self 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.760 regulation of knowing what's appropriate and inappropriate. 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.439 What do you make if his treatment of women belitteral 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.880 in them, never listening to them, just being beyond this 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.600 respectful abhorrent? What does this say about him? And could 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:20.480 this be a motivation? 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:26.240 Some people have made a lot about in him being 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.720 an in cell and things like that. I just see 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:33.320 him as really emotionally and sexually frustrated. I think to 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.840 hit that level of wanting to join, because think about it. 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.200 In cells are kind of you know, from what I've 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.280 seen on it, it's a group and it's a cult 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.280 mentality of these people that a group together. Coburg is 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.640 not a joiner. That's why I didn't really I don't 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.079 put him in the sense of his in cell because 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.079 it's kind of a group, a group mentality that kind 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:58.440 of helps each other, you know, rage against you know, girls, 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.120 and kind of feel better about who they are by 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:04.440 joining together and doing that. He's not a joiner, so 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.080 it doesn't really strike me, but frustrated with his inability 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.080 because he sucks at human interaction. 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.160 Interesting, No, I keep kind of going back to the 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.280 fact that he'd just stare at people, and he'd also 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.880 physically block them in corners, as if he wasn't allowing 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.560 that person to leave the conversation. There is something so 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.480 odd to me about blocking someone in a corner. It's 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.120 scary and awkward. 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.160 If it's a pattern. Because even in the classroom they 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.559 talk about him as a TA on the first day 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.000 standing awkwardly in front of the class, So I think 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.560 part of it is that control aspect of it. I 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.600 think the majority of it, though, is his complete unaware 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.479 self serving himself of having no clue about what's appropriate inappropriate. 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:47.359 I think he's just so stupid on his emotional intelligence 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.679 that he has no clue about what he's doing. I 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.959 think he just thinks he's the most important person. Everyone 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:53.760 wants to listen to him because he's so smart, so 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:55.360 everyone must want to listen to me. So I'm just 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.360 going to stand here awkwardly. But to him, he's not 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.560 being awkward. To him, he's just being who he is. 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.360 He just completely oblivious to his impact on others. He 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.920 has zero ability to read a room. He has zero 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.800 ability to read other people. It is profound, is what 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:09.199 it is. 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.719 Yeah, absolutely, you know in one of these accounts, and 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:13.440 it just goes along with everything you're saying. You know, 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.080 he was always thinking he's the smartest person in the room. 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.080 And in one of these documents it says that he 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:22.440 was also always bragging about knowing some high profile professor, 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.200 which I have to imagine is doctor Kathin Ramslin from 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:29.120 the Sales University. You know, she taught him and he 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.600 looked up to her. But yeah, he would brag about 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:33.000 knowing this professor. 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.640 Just a name dropper. So let's go back to the 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.640 Ramslan thing because I think it's really relevant because again 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.640 it gives us a glimpse on his motivations in life. 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.680 So Howard Bloom, great author, did a lot of great work. 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.640 His book When Night Comes Falling was a fantastic study, 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.360 and he is numerous times said that he thinks part 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:56.880 of Coburger's motivation was to impress Ramslin in some way. 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:01.200 And I always taken what are the people observe when 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.120 they've done a lot of deep dives on this? And 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:04.640 I think Howard was on to something. 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:09.920 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:21.840 a moment. Author and investigative journalist Howard Blum has floated 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.680 a compelling theory that Brian Coberger may have been driven 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.800 by a desire to impress his renowned professor at the 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:35.080 Sales University. His professor was doctor Catherine Ramsland. She's a 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:39.120 criminologist well known for her connections to serial killer studies. 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:44.239 Here's Howard Blum. 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:48.480 Brian Coberger was a student of criminal justice. Part of 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:53.080 his research was studying serial killers. But has his professor, 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:57.440 his advisor, Katherine Ramslin, a great authority in forensic psychology, 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:02.040 author of seventy nine books, rights, you know, fantasy and 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.000 killers makes them want to experience the real thing and maybe, 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.160 just maybe again this is just speculative, he wanted to 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:10.960 try to see if he could pull off the perfect crime. 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.640 Maybe he wanted to try to impress his criminal justice professor, 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:18.880 who was his advisor Katherine Ramslin that I can do 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.000 even better than you. You go into prisons and speak 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.080 face to face with serial killers. I can do something 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:30.240 even more important, something larger. I can become a serial 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:31.680 killer and get away with it. 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:39.880 Here's behavioral analyst Robin Draeke sharing why he thinks this 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:41.120 theory holds weight. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.240 Why did he get into criminology, why did he get 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.320 into this, And so with all of us as human beings, 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.880 we do things and we're exposed to things and behaviors 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.520 in our early formative years of life roughly between ages 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:56.840 nine to twenty four as a prefund the lobes fully 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.280 forming that allows us to feel safe and valued by 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.520 others because we're genetically and biology coded to gravitate towards 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.440 things that make us feel safe and valued. You know, 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:05.800 we see it all the time with people in our 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.400 own lives, whether it's in the university or in jobs. 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.680 We tend to say someone is really good at something, 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:12.600 if they tend to spend a lot of time doing it, 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:14.920 it's the only thing they focus on. He sucked at 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.560 everything else in life, and so he goes off and 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.320 studies under Ramsland, who then validates him. Says Wow, he's 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:27.440 so intelligent. Ramslan gave him validation. I mean, she's an expert. 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:32.960 The only thing that motivates a psychopath is notoriety and grandiosity, 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.240 and so he sees that, you know, I might be 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.200 become notable to someone who I admire. So I don't 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.560 think it was going to be a personal thing. I 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.800 think part of his motivation was to be someone that 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.160 she studied, that he would do something that would like. 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:52.000 She was very impressed, necessarily not like admiration wise, but 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.040 very impressed with the level and skills of Bundye Btk 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.000 and Dahmer and all these people, and so he wanted 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.640 to be that notorious who hers. 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.600 Wow. Yeah, the logic lines up there. I mean, obviously 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.000 doctor Ramslan didn't intend this exactly, but it's such an 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.159 interesting way to look at this all because you know, 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:11.760 we all like to be good at things, and when 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.040 we are good at things, it's like a dopamine effect. 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.959 And for once he seems to have found a little niche, 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.120 which is being great at criminology. He's found the one 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.639 thing that someone says, hey, you know, you're great at this. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.159 You know another thing too that is interesting that we 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.119 learned from these documents that he was googling Ted Bundy 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.520 a lot before and after the murders. Do you think 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.160 that he could have been motivated to become next him? 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:36.840 You know? And in fact, in one of these WSU documents, 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:38.960 a student says that they were comparing the University of 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.879 Idaho murders to the child Mega house murders at Florida 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:46.040 State University, which which obviously Bundy was responsible for. What 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.240 do you think about this Bundy inspiration theory? 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:52.080 Everything he's done and everything he did was complete copycat 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.359 of someone else. Definitely, I think part of his emo 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.480 is trying to be someone in that same realm as them, 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.560 for that grandiosity thing. I still think a lot of 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.760 what he was doing was studying on what he should 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.000 do next and how he should behave and how to 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.760 get away with things better. He's trying to find the 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:11.040 best to emulate that got away with things for a 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.000 longer period of time. So let's try to be more 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:17.280 like that, and so let's put ourselves in the PhD 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.119 candidate shoes of I'm going to try to be the 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.639 best at doing this, and since I have no original 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.240 thought on my own anyway, let's study, as many people 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.480 take the best elements of this person best elements, This 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.479 best element is this, and if I put it all together, 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.160 because I'm so smart, I can get away with it 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.600 because I'm taking all these things and putting together into 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.480 one person. So again, no innovation, no original thought. I'm 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:40.720 just going to keep copying all these people. I don't 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.040 think he has an original thought ever, yoh. 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.560 One hundred percent. If you could kind of compare some 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.280 of his behavior to some other top serial killers, like 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.560 compare him to you know, what does he have in 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.440 common with BTK? What does he have in common with Bundy? 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.080 We'd be very curious to hear your thoughts on that. 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.920 I'm actually going to do the reverse in some cases 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.240 when you're trying to say all the similarity to someone, 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.000 because there's I think there's a lot of similarities between 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:11.520 what he was trying to do compared you know, with BTK, Dohmer, Bundy. 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.880 There's so many comparisons that they become I think overwhelming. 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.800 What I think it's easier to do is say where 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.119 isn't he similar and where he failed and where he 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.879 continues to fail is where they were successful, and that 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.639 is most of them were very very good at masking 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.399 who they were at their core. They were very good 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.439 there eq their emotional intelligence was much higher than his, 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.639 and so I think he's very similar in what he 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.159 tried to do compared to all the other people. The 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.880 differences is that they were being who they were. They 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.240 were naturally able to problem solve and innovate. They weren't 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.600 copying anyone. They were just being these horrendous serial killers, 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.040 and they were naturally figuring out how to do this 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.800 really effectively, using their natural charisma, use their natural innerpersonal skills, 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:59.199 and you do those things to get away with it 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:03.040 for longer period time. Coburger had zero of that ability, 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.119 and so he's trying to copy people that he's incapable 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.120 of copying. He can copy mechanics, but he can't copy empathy. 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.760 He can't copy socialization. He's completely incapable of it. So 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.840 I think he's very similar in the mechanics of what 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:21.000 all of them were doing, but horrendous and completely incapable 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:22.680 of copying any socialization. 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.560 That's such a good point because yeah, if you think 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.840 of Ted Bundy, you know everyone liked him, like, he's 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.159 still handsome, he's so smooth with women, BTK was a 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:32.320 leader at the church. 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.960 Oh my god, I think BTK is the best at it. 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:39.240 So Dennis Raider BTK the bondis Tarcher kill killer. He's 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.280 very famous serial killer. What he would do is he 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:47.359 was he killed for his sexual fanization as a serial killer, 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.520 but he would go for long periods of time in 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.440 between his kills. He was able to satiate that by 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.040 other stimulation to keep it subdued in that bay. And 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.040 the way he hid in plain sight was he had 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.119 a family. He is a member of the church as 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.560 the president of this organization. He had a daughter. All 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.680 these people and all people in his regular life are 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.560 completely unaware because he was such a good guy to them. 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:11.240 But then he knew that he was going to have 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.040 a period of time where I got to let this 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:15.320 monster out, and he let that monster out. But he's 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.359 able to because of his socialization, able to do it 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:20.199 very much like when you see these serial killers that 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:22.440 are able to stay hidden for such a long period 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.040 of time. It's because that socialization is so so pronounced 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.840 really very good. Because again Coburger stands out to everyone 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:31.720 all the time, his entire life of being awkward and 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.720 not so his chance of becoming a serial killer, even 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:37.880