1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: This guy was like American psycho. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 2: I can do something even more important, something larger. I 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 2: can become a serial killer and get away with it. 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 3: I have never seen from any case I've covered someone's 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 3: so completely devoid of anything internal. 6 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode five, Strange Behavior. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 8 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideger and Gabriel Castillo. 9 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: Over one hundred documents have been released by the Moscow 10 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: Police Department and another five hundred and fifty by the 11 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: Idaho State Police. Together, they don't just fill in the blanks, 12 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: reveal an even clearer and at times far more troubling 13 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: picture of this case. Crime analysts Body move In takes 14 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: us deep inside the files that focus specifically on Brian 15 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: Coberger's behavior, what his colleagues noticed, the patterns that emerged, 16 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: and the red flags that may have been hiding in 17 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: plain sight. Then behavioral analyst Robin Drake helps us connect 18 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: the dots, breaking down what these documents reveal about Coburger's mindset, 19 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: his decision making, and the strange behaviors that led up 20 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: to the murders. You'll hear Robin's theory on motive why 21 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: he thinks this seemingly promising PhD student took such a 22 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: dark turn. But first, let's start with Body move In 23 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: and Stephanie Leidecker as they guide us through some of 24 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: the most revealing files. 25 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 4: Yet, all of these findings and files coming out publicly, 26 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 4: and we can't get through them fast enough. We're eating 27 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 4: them up as prd as possible. But it shows a 28 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 4: lot into his brain space while getting his PhD. 29 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 5: He's described by many as creepy, socially awkward, and domineering. 30 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 5: He frequently stared intensely at people. One woman counted nine 31 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 5: times during a class she saw him staring at her intensely, 32 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 5: like creepy, scary. 33 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: Like without a blink. 34 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 4: You know, times you might just be gazing in a 35 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 4: direction and you happen to be looking at a person 36 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 4: and it's so embarrassing. You're like, I swear I'm not 37 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 4: overly staring. But in this case, this was a repeat pattern, 38 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 4: and he wouldn't really blink. He would just be so 39 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 4: intensely staring. 40 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 5: He exhibited this macho or puffed up demeanor, and he 41 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 5: always wanted to dominate every conversation he had. So you 42 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 5: if you and I were talking about the new Barbie 43 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 5: Doll okay that we all got we love this Barbie 44 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 5: Doll enter coburger, he would turn the conversation it is 45 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 5: something he's interested, and then dominate that conversation. 46 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: Wow. 47 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 5: In one report, there was a guy and he said 48 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 5: that Brian wasn't really his friend, but he was more 49 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 5: than an acquaintance, so he's kind of in the in between. 50 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 5: And he got a ride from Brian Coberger and they 51 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 5: ended up being in his car for hours in the 52 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 5: parking lot, just talking, and Brian was venting to him, 53 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 5: saying that I don't you know, I don't have a 54 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 5: lot of guys to talk to, And then he said 55 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 5: he could walk into a bar and have any woman 56 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 5: he wanted. 57 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, give me a break. This guy, he 58 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 4: couldn't get a girl. 59 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 5: Persistent complaints from women about his behavior. He made sexist 60 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 5: and belittally remarks. He denied man's plaining even exists. This 61 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 5: girl was and then the class was telling her something 62 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 5: about eyewitnesses get things wrong, and they were talking about 63 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 5: that and he basically told her she was wrong and 64 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 5: explained why she was wrong, which is fine, but apparently 65 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 5: he was man's plaining and the argument got so heated 66 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 5: that she left the classroom crying and heated and like 67 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 5: left everything behind. Wow he told a disabled gay student 68 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 5: he would only accept a physically perfect partner and would 69 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 5: she even consider procreating because of her disability. 70 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 4: Meaning because she had a disability, he thought maybe she shouldn't. 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 4: Like That's what he was implying, is that you're not 72 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 4: perfect enough to procreate. 73 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 6: Right. 74 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 5: He said in some of these classes that he was 75 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 5: in that he believed in like traditional roles, and he 76 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 5: believed in like traditional marriage. You know, he was homophobic. 77 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 5: He made homophobic comments. He had hostility towards women. He 78 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 5: was dismissive of all the female professors authority. He questioned 79 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 5: one's ability to grade because she was too foreign. He 80 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 5: was systematically late to classes taught by women. He was 81 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 5: never late to the male professor classes. There was even 82 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 5: a male professor who started letting his class out early 83 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 5: so that Brian could make it to his colleague's female class, 84 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 5: and Brian was still late to her class. Wow was 85 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 5: intentionally disruptive. He would leave class in the middle of 86 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 5: a woman speaking one of his professors and go get coffee. 87 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? He was dismissive. 88 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 5: It was so bad that people in classes that were 89 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 5: with Coburger started keeping a tally how many times he 90 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 5: was late to female professors classes versus the male professors. 91 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 5: Female grad students often felt uncomfortable, harassed, or trapped. He 92 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 5: would block doorways, preventing them from leaving offices, and he 93 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 5: would like corner them, and the word was spatially trap 94 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 5: people in rooms and conversations, and then when you would 95 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 5: try to get away from him, he would follow you 96 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 5: and continue the conversation, sometimes following people all the way 97 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 5: to their car. And it got so bad. He allegedly 98 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 5: stalked a staff member, asked her out on a date, 99 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 5: and followed her to a car. She filed a civil 100 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 5: rights complaint with the university about this because he wouldn't 101 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 5: leave her alone. A cafe worker said that he knew 102 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 5: her name and scheduled despite never being told, and she 103 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 5: suspects that he tracked her for weeks in order to 104 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 5: figure that out. In order to figure that out right, 105 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 5: witness has. 106 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 4: Been the guy that's like sitting outside the restaurant staring 107 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 4: through the window from the outside, marking her shifts. 108 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 2: Think about that. 109 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: How scary that is. 110 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 5: Very Witnesses reported him showing up at women's homes or 111 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 5: being linked to suspicious incidents. Knocks on the windows, somebody 112 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 5: on a porch, somebody's underwear was stolen. This one lady, 113 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 5: she's a student and she was in the court. She 114 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 5: invited everybody to her apartment for like some kind of orientation, 115 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 5: including Brian Coburger. Then rumor started circulating that she's on 116 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 5: this drug and she has this disease and da da 117 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 5: dada whatever, and it comes from Brian Coburger. She finds out, well, 118 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 5: he went through her medicine cabinet when he was in 119 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 5: her bathroom at her house. This guy. In fact, one 120 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 5: of the professors said that she works with predators and 121 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 5: she recognizes them when she sees them, and he's definitely 122 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 5: going to be somebody that they hear about. Another one 123 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 5: said that he was probably going to be a future rapist. 124 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 5: And you know, some faculty even warned students not to 125 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 5: be alone with him. You know, I'm a little taken 126 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 5: aback by how obvious his like absolute disdain and disrespect 127 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 5: for women were. What were they thinking after the murders, 128 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 5: like did they question like, Oh my god, I wonder 129 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 5: if it could be him, Like I wonder like internally, 130 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 5: did any of them kind of go o, I don't know. 131 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 5: Here you are, you're getting your PhD. You're a student, 132 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 5: you know. 133 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 4: And also he has younger people underneath him like their 134 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 4: prey to him. At this point, this guy was like 135 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 4: American psycho. 136 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: We brought in Robin Drake, a retired FBI special agent 137 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: and former head of the bureau's Counterintelligence Behavioral and Aalysis program. 138 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: He's reviewed these documents detailing Brian Coberger's unsettling behavior and 139 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: shares his insight into why Coburger acted the way he did. 140 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston. 141 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 6: To start off, I just I'd love for you to 142 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about you. What do you 143 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 6: specialize in? What's your background? 144 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, Naval Academy graduate, Marine Corps officer from there. 145 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 3: I came in the FBI in nineteen ninety seven and 146 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 3: I was a counterintelligence agent. My job was recruiting spies 147 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 3: and I did it my entire career. I got on 148 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 3: our behavioral team for that as a team member, and 149 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 3: then I became the chief of that team, I taught 150 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 3: at Quantico all these advanced techniques for interpersonal relationships and 151 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 3: communication basically, and what that all boils down to is 152 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: I had with the FBI before I retired, over twenty 153 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 3: two years of understanding why humans do what they are 154 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: going to do. If you're going to recruit a spy, 155 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 3: you have to understand the world through their optic and 156 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 3: lens if they're going to have a relationship with you 157 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 3: and trust you with their life and betray their country. 158 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 3: So with that skill set, when I retired in twenty eighteen, 159 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 3: and even before that, I started getting called for because 160 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: everyone sees behavior in my background because chief of the 161 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 3: Beable House program, they and FBI behavior they know they 162 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: want me to give my thoughts and opinions on why 163 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: bad guys do bad things. I always got to covey 164 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 3: at everything. Not a licensed clinical physician, clinician or anything 165 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 3: like that. This is pure my background from my experiences. 166 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,239 Speaker 6: So these documents, these complaints from his colleagues at WSU, 167 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 6: what do you glean from them? What do they say 168 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 6: about him? 169 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 3: So what we start seeing with him is exactly how 170 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 3: empty he is. There is nothing there. And what I 171 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,359 Speaker 3: mean by that is, there are behaviors that are extremely psychopathic. 172 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: And when I worked and believe or not, even in 173 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: the world of counter intelligence, you dealt with psychopaths because 174 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: if someone's committee an espionage, generally espionage is not the 175 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 3: only thing going sideways in that person's life. And so 176 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 3: that high level of psychopay I saw it multiple times 177 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 3: both in my bureau career and obviously afterwards consulting on 178 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: these cases. And at the core of psychopathy, the highest 179 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 3: level of psychopathy, this is pure predator with empty shell 180 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 3: They're really only reacting to biological impulses and genetics, that 181 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 3: is it. And so I have never seen from any 182 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 3: case I've covered, someone so completely devoid of anything internal. 183 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 3: That's Coburger. Every interaction you see with him is the 184 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 3: reason why he creeps people out, because when we see creepy, 185 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: what it is is we're picking up as human beings 186 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 3: inconsistencies and behavior inconsistencies and the words that are being 187 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 3: setting the emotions that someone has. This I mean, we're 188 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 3: extremely attuned to our environment as a biological organism on 189 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 3: his planet's evolved for hundreds of thousands of years, and 190 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 3: so when we feel unsafe that's that creepy feeling and 191 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 3: unsafe means there's incongruence in the environment or the individual. 192 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 3: Coburger is the epitome of consistently incongruent because he has 193 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: no emotion and he has no idea how to act. 194 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 3: His ability to socialize and how have healthy regular conversations 195 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 3: and knowing boundaries with people that you don't have a 196 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 3: stronger relationship with obviously is again incapable of a self 197 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 3: regulation of knowing what's appropriate and inappropriate. 198 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 6: What do you make if his treatment of women belitteral 199 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 6: in them, never listening to them, just being beyond this 200 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 6: respectful abhorrent? What does this say about him? And could 201 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 6: this be a motivation? 202 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 3: Some people have made a lot about in him being 203 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 3: an in cell and things like that. I just see 204 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 3: him as really emotionally and sexually frustrated. I think to 205 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 3: hit that level of wanting to join, because think about it. 206 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 3: In cells are kind of you know, from what I've 207 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: seen on it, it's a group and it's a cult 208 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 3: mentality of these people that a group together. Coburg is 209 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: not a joiner. That's why I didn't really I don't 210 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 3: put him in the sense of his in cell because 211 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 3: it's kind of a group, a group mentality that kind 212 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 3: of helps each other, you know, rage against you know, girls, 213 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 3: and kind of feel better about who they are by 214 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 3: joining together and doing that. He's not a joiner, so 215 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 3: it doesn't really strike me, but frustrated with his inability 216 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 3: because he sucks at human interaction. 217 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 6: Interesting, No, I keep kind of going back to the 218 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 6: fact that he'd just stare at people, and he'd also 219 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 6: physically block them in corners, as if he wasn't allowing 220 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 6: that person to leave the conversation. There is something so 221 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 6: odd to me about blocking someone in a corner. It's 222 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 6: scary and awkward. 223 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: If it's a pattern. Because even in the classroom they 224 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 3: talk about him as a TA on the first day 225 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 3: standing awkwardly in front of the class, So I think 226 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 3: part of it is that control aspect of it. I 227 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 3: think the majority of it, though, is his complete unaware 228 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,479 Speaker 3: self serving himself of having no clue about what's appropriate inappropriate. 229 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,359 Speaker 3: I think he's just so stupid on his emotional intelligence 230 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 3: that he has no clue about what he's doing. I 231 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 3: think he just thinks he's the most important person. Everyone 232 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: wants to listen to him because he's so smart, so 233 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 3: everyone must want to listen to me. So I'm just 234 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: going to stand here awkwardly. But to him, he's not 235 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 3: being awkward. To him, he's just being who he is. 236 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 3: He just completely oblivious to his impact on others. He 237 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 3: has zero ability to read a room. He has zero 238 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 3: ability to read other people. It is profound, is what 239 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 3: it is. 240 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, you know in one of these accounts, and 241 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 6: it just goes along with everything you're saying. You know, 242 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 6: he was always thinking he's the smartest person in the room. 243 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 6: And in one of these documents it says that he 244 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 6: was also always bragging about knowing some high profile professor, 245 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 6: which I have to imagine is doctor Kathin Ramslin from 246 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 6: the Sales University. You know, she taught him and he 247 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 6: looked up to her. But yeah, he would brag about 248 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 6: knowing this professor. 249 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: Just a name dropper. So let's go back to the 250 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 3: Ramslan thing because I think it's really relevant because again 251 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: it gives us a glimpse on his motivations in life. 252 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 3: So Howard Bloom, great author, did a lot of great work. 253 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 3: His book When Night Comes Falling was a fantastic study, 254 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: and he is numerous times said that he thinks part 255 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 3: of Coburger's motivation was to impress Ramslin in some way. 256 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 3: And I always taken what are the people observe when 257 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 3: they've done a lot of deep dives on this? And 258 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 3: I think Howard was on to something. 259 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 260 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: a moment. Author and investigative journalist Howard Blum has floated 261 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: a compelling theory that Brian Coberger may have been driven 262 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: by a desire to impress his renowned professor at the 263 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: Sales University. His professor was doctor Catherine Ramsland. She's a 264 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: criminologist well known for her connections to serial killer studies. 265 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,239 Speaker 1: Here's Howard Blum. 266 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: Brian Coberger was a student of criminal justice. Part of 267 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: his research was studying serial killers. But has his professor, 268 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: his advisor, Katherine Ramslin, a great authority in forensic psychology, 269 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: author of seventy nine books, rights, you know, fantasy and 270 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: killers makes them want to experience the real thing and maybe, 271 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 2: just maybe again this is just speculative, he wanted to 272 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: try to see if he could pull off the perfect crime. 273 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: Maybe he wanted to try to impress his criminal justice professor, 274 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: who was his advisor Katherine Ramslin that I can do 275 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: even better than you. You go into prisons and speak 276 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: face to face with serial killers. I can do something 277 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 2: even more important, something larger. I can become a serial 278 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 2: killer and get away with it. 279 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: Here's behavioral analyst Robin Draeke sharing why he thinks this 280 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: theory holds weight. 281 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 3: Why did he get into criminology, why did he get 282 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: into this, And so with all of us as human beings, 283 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 3: we do things and we're exposed to things and behaviors 284 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: in our early formative years of life roughly between ages 285 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 3: nine to twenty four as a prefund the lobes fully 286 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 3: forming that allows us to feel safe and valued by 287 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: others because we're genetically and biology coded to gravitate towards 288 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: things that make us feel safe and valued. You know, 289 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 3: we see it all the time with people in our 290 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 3: own lives, whether it's in the university or in jobs. 291 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 3: We tend to say someone is really good at something, 292 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 3: if they tend to spend a lot of time doing it, 293 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 3: it's the only thing they focus on. He sucked at 294 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: everything else in life, and so he goes off and 295 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: studies under Ramsland, who then validates him. Says Wow, he's 296 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: so intelligent. Ramslan gave him validation. I mean, she's an expert. 297 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 3: The only thing that motivates a psychopath is notoriety and grandiosity, 298 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 3: and so he sees that, you know, I might be 299 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 3: become notable to someone who I admire. So I don't 300 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 3: think it was going to be a personal thing. I 301 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 3: think part of his motivation was to be someone that 302 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 3: she studied, that he would do something that would like. 303 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 3: She was very impressed, necessarily not like admiration wise, but 304 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 3: very impressed with the level and skills of Bundye Btk 305 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 3: and Dahmer and all these people, and so he wanted 306 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 3: to be that notorious who hers. 307 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 6: Wow. Yeah, the logic lines up there. I mean, obviously 308 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 6: doctor Ramslan didn't intend this exactly, but it's such an 309 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 6: interesting way to look at this all because you know, 310 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 6: we all like to be good at things, and when 311 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 6: we are good at things, it's like a dopamine effect. 312 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,959 Speaker 6: And for once he seems to have found a little niche, 313 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 6: which is being great at criminology. He's found the one 314 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 6: thing that someone says, hey, you know, you're great at this. 315 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 6: You know another thing too that is interesting that we 316 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 6: learned from these documents that he was googling Ted Bundy 317 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 6: a lot before and after the murders. Do you think 318 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 6: that he could have been motivated to become next him? 319 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 6: You know? And in fact, in one of these WSU documents, 320 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 6: a student says that they were comparing the University of 321 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 6: Idaho murders to the child Mega house murders at Florida 322 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 6: State University, which which obviously Bundy was responsible for. What 323 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 6: do you think about this Bundy inspiration theory? 324 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 3: Everything he's done and everything he did was complete copycat 325 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 3: of someone else. Definitely, I think part of his emo 326 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 3: is trying to be someone in that same realm as them, 327 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 3: for that grandiosity thing. I still think a lot of 328 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 3: what he was doing was studying on what he should 329 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: do next and how he should behave and how to 330 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 3: get away with things better. He's trying to find the 331 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 3: best to emulate that got away with things for a 332 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 3: longer period of time. So let's try to be more 333 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 3: like that, and so let's put ourselves in the PhD 334 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 3: candidate shoes of I'm going to try to be the 335 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 3: best at doing this, and since I have no original 336 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: thought on my own anyway, let's study, as many people 337 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 3: take the best elements of this person best elements, This 338 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,479 Speaker 3: best element is this, and if I put it all together, 339 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 3: because I'm so smart, I can get away with it 340 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 3: because I'm taking all these things and putting together into 341 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 3: one person. So again, no innovation, no original thought. I'm 342 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 3: just going to keep copying all these people. I don't 343 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 3: think he has an original thought ever, yoh. 344 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 6: One hundred percent. If you could kind of compare some 345 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 6: of his behavior to some other top serial killers, like 346 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 6: compare him to you know, what does he have in 347 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 6: common with BTK? What does he have in common with Bundy? 348 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 6: We'd be very curious to hear your thoughts on that. 349 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: I'm actually going to do the reverse in some cases 350 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 3: when you're trying to say all the similarity to someone, 351 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: because there's I think there's a lot of similarities between 352 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 3: what he was trying to do compared you know, with BTK, Dohmer, Bundy. 353 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 3: There's so many comparisons that they become I think overwhelming. 354 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: What I think it's easier to do is say where 355 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 3: isn't he similar and where he failed and where he 356 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 3: continues to fail is where they were successful, and that 357 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 3: is most of them were very very good at masking 358 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 3: who they were at their core. They were very good 359 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 3: there eq their emotional intelligence was much higher than his, 360 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 3: and so I think he's very similar in what he 361 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 3: tried to do compared to all the other people. The 362 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: differences is that they were being who they were. They 363 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 3: were naturally able to problem solve and innovate. They weren't 364 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: copying anyone. They were just being these horrendous serial killers, 365 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: and they were naturally figuring out how to do this 366 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 3: really effectively, using their natural charisma, use their natural innerpersonal skills, 367 00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 3: and you do those things to get away with it 368 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 3: for longer period time. Coburger had zero of that ability, 369 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 3: and so he's trying to copy people that he's incapable 370 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 3: of copying. He can copy mechanics, but he can't copy empathy. 371 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 3: He can't copy socialization. He's completely incapable of it. So 372 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: I think he's very similar in the mechanics of what 373 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 3: all of them were doing, but horrendous and completely incapable 374 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 3: of copying any socialization. 375 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 6: That's such a good point because yeah, if you think 376 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 6: of Ted Bundy, you know everyone liked him, like, he's 377 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 6: still handsome, he's so smooth with women, BTK was a 378 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 6: leader at the church. 379 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I think BTK is the best at it. 380 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 3: So Dennis Raider BTK the bondis Tarcher kill killer. He's 381 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 3: very famous serial killer. What he would do is he 382 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 3: was he killed for his sexual fanization as a serial killer, 383 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 3: but he would go for long periods of time in 384 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 3: between his kills. He was able to satiate that by 385 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 3: other stimulation to keep it subdued in that bay. And 386 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 3: the way he hid in plain sight was he had 387 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 3: a family. He is a member of the church as 388 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 3: the president of this organization. He had a daughter. All 389 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 3: these people and all people in his regular life are 390 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 3: completely unaware because he was such a good guy to them. 391 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: But then he knew that he was going to have 392 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 3: a period of time where I got to let this 393 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 3: monster out, and he let that monster out. But he's 394 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 3: able to because of his socialization, able to do it 395 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 3: very much like when you see these serial killers that 396 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 3: are able to stay hidden for such a long period 397 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 3: of time. It's because that socialization is so so pronounced 398 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 3: really very good. Because again Coburger stands out to everyone 399 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 3: all the time, his entire life of being awkward and 400 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 3: not so his chance of becoming a serial killer, even 401 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 3: if he wanted to be. He was so low because 402 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 3: he couldn't hide. 403 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 6: Yes, I think too back of this story from his 404 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 6: high school days where he worked so hard to lose 405 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 6: the weight because he's like, you know, if I lose weight, 406 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 6: maybe people will finally like me. You know. So he 407 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 6: works and works and works, and he loses over one 408 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 6: hundred pounds and still no one likes him. You know, 409 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 6: he tries and tries to be like these famous serial 410 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 6: killers and he fails. How frustrating must that be, you know, 411 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 6: to maybe that's why he's so violent, is you know, 412 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 6: he's like, oh, if I do this, if I do that, 413 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 6: then then people will like me. Then I'll be noticed. 414 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 6: But he just can't seem to ever Land. 415 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 3: Isn't that the greatest torture he's going through right now 416 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 3: that I'm the only thing I think that gives the 417 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 3: families any piece is the fact that he is tortured 418 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 3: every day by his failure. That is just it's just 419 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 3: magnificent looking at his failure. He failed at everything he 420 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 3: tried to do in life and good and he's reminded 421 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 3: of it every single day. 422 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 6: Absolutely. One last thing here from these documents, and I 423 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 6: thought this was interesting too. In one of these documents, 424 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 6: there's an interview with some of his fellow teaching assistants 425 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 6: and it says that he was the only one in 426 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 6: the class. This person is saying this, he's the only 427 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 6: one in the class who supported the death penalty, which 428 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 6: you know now is pretty ironic considering he plied guilty 429 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 6: and is living the rest of his life in prison. 430 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 6: What do you make of this behavior. 431 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 3: My theory, again, it's not because he had that thought, 432 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 3: is because he read that people that are innocent will 433 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 3: say things like that. You interview someone that has done 434 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 3: something heinous, and one of the things that a couple 435 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 3: do during that interview is says, so what do you 436 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 3: think that should happen to someone that did that? And 437 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 3: typically a guilty person will say, well, you know, you know, 438 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 3: they should be given a second chance, you know, and 439 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 3: they'll come up with all these equivalentations on what should 440 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 3: happen other than the maximum sentence to someone. So I 441 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 3: think he've read somewhere that's that's what he should say. 442 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 443 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: a moment. It turns out that Brian Coberer's past support 444 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: for the death penalty was the ultimate irony, because in 445 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: the end he pled guilty to avoid Idaho's firing squad 446 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: and spare his own life. Now, instead of facing execution, 447 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 1: he spends his days confined to a small sterile cell 448 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: at the Idaho Maximum Security Institution. It's a place he'll 449 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: call home for the rest of his life. His daily 450 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: reality twenty three hours a day in lockdown, with a 451 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: single hour outside those four walls. So what does life 452 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: really look like for an inmate in Idaho's most secure prison? 453 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: What kind of existence awaits Brian Kopecker behind those bars. 454 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: Next time, we'll get into it with bail bondsman Kevin Corson. 455 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: He has the inside scoop on exactly how the Idaho 456 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: Maximum Security Institution operates. More on that next time. For 457 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us 458 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is 459 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo and me 460 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toois, Music 461 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacer is a production of 462 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit 463 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 464 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.