WEBVTT - Where to Turn for Debt and Budget Help with Thomas Nitzsche #199 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.640 Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.200 and today we're discussing where to turn for debt and 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:28.000 budget help with Thomas Nichi, Yeah, Juel. In his early twenties, 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.960 Thomas Nichi, he found himself in loads of debts. Like 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.880 so many folks, he didn't learn how credit cards really worked, 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:36.360 and so the charges began to add up, and before 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.800 he knew it, he had an overwhelming balance that he 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.720 could barely make minimum payments on. And then a couple 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.519 that consumer spending with student loans, a card payment, a mortgage, 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.120 and then the final kicker, getting laid off and losing 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.479 his income. Thomas found himself in a really stressful spot, 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:52.440 but he was able to move from a place of 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.920 desperation to using his experience to help others. He now 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.760 works for Money Management International, which is the largest provider 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.520 of nonprofit financial counseling and education in the United States. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.720 He's all about conversations around money and de stigmatizing debts, 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.080 and that's what we're going to do today. So Thomas, 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:12.320 thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. Man, Hey, 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:14.880 thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Thomas. We're 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:16.560 glad to have you. By the way, Matt and I 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.600 we drink a beer every week on the show, and 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.600 it's to signify that we sport on something we love 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.360 right now while also at the same time trying to 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.720 save and invest well for the future. Today on the show, 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.800 we're drinking Experimental I p a volume thirteen by a 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.200 local homebrewer called easy Chair Brewing Garage. So I want 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:36.319 to ask you, what's your craft beer, what's your equivalent? 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.040 What do you sploreage on right now while you're saving 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.240 for your future? Absolutely well, I love dark beer and 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.039 I love wheat beer, but I wouldn't say that's my splurge. 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.000 I think, you know, beer's pretty affordable, and I don't 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:49.920 go to overboard. But I would say that I splurge 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:54.040 on travel, at least during times when we're not experiencing 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.760 a pandemic. I travel about once a month to various places. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.680 My partner owns a time share at the Atlantis and 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:02.800 the Bahamas, and so we go there pretty regularly and 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:05.560 doesn't always have to be that fancy though. I'll go 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:07.640 to the lake a lot nearby in the summertime and 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.600 just love to get out and see new places and spaces. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.680 So nice. Uh so, yeah, well maybe where is maybe 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:15.760 some of the more adventurous spots have have you been? Like? 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.800 Do you do? You do you go abroad much as 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.640 far as to like some of those countries that some 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.960 folks have never I guess been to or heard of. Yeah. Yeah, 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:29.040 So my partner works for a nonprofit music oriented nonprofit 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.760 and they tour US bands overseas, and so I would 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.080 say the most adventurous was when I joined him on 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.840 one of those tours in Belize. It was a lot 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.799 of fun and got to see a lot of cool places, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.000 got lost by myself a few times. It's all fun 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.000 in a strange, you know, country, but that was a 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.040 really cool experience. I don't travel internationally as much as 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.680 I would probably like because I do help take care 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.720 of family back here in Illinois, and so it makes 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.600 me a little nervous to travel that far. But I 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.400 do travel domestic quite a bit, and to the Bahamas 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:04.400 very cool. You know, Joe and I we both have 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.560 little kids, little babies at home these days, so travel 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.680 isn't something that we are doing very often these days. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.280 But obviously, like you said, I'm sure that's something that 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:15.680 you're not even doing all that much these days. I 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.239 think I saw something like airline travels down at this point. 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.960 Nobody's traveling right now. You can't even get a direct flight. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:25.560 In my partner with saying he can't get a direct 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.239 flight from here to d C. Right now from St. 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.040 Louis a DC, you can't even get a direct anymore. 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.959 So that's crazy man. Well, Thomas, we really appreciate you 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.040 joining us. Uh, we kind of wanted to start at 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:39.320 the beginning of your relationship with money really, um, you know, 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:40.760 at the beginning of your store. It's a it's a 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.720 pretty familiar one. In your twenties, you got into credit 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.120 card trouble. Can you kind of recount that story, like 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.280 how did all that happen? Yeah? For sure, So I 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.240 would say even earlier than that, because I'm now going 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.960 on forty one, and you know, back in the day, 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:55.880 the credit card companies could market to you when you 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.360 were at junior college, right, um, and give you a 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.360 free T shirt with a credit card application, that sort 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.720 of stuff, which they were not allowed to do anymore. Um. 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.080 So yeah, I had eighteen, nineteen years old. They handed 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.760 me a platinum credit card with a ten thousand dollar limit, 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.800 and I don't think I was making ten thousand dollars 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.280 a year at that point, so that is sort of 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.880 the slippery slope that I started down. I came from 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:20.240 a religious family, and the extent of my credit education 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.039 was the debt is bad, with no real explanation of 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.520 of why. So like any good teenager, I rebelled and 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.320 got a credit card and started using it. So um 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.240 that that's sort of where it all started for me, 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.240 and then it just sort of snowballed from there. Like 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.080 I was in the process of coming out when I 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.680 was in my late teens early twenties, and I um 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:45.479 exited my living situation with my family rather hastily and 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.880 under those sort of pressures, and um kind of had 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.640 to just build my life from scratch, and unfortunately, credit 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.480 cards had to sort of support that process because I 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.360 wasn't getting that support from from family or or anybody else. 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.520 So that's sort of where it all start hearted for me, 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.479 and then just over the years it just never really 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.320 went away. I managed it, but I never really got 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.039 it paid off. And even up until the time that 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.280 I owned my first house and then my second house, 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.480 I still had sort of like nagging credit card debt 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.279 and then when the recession hit in two thousand seven, 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.240 is when I got laid off and I went from 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.039 a high paying job at a at a global financial 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.640 services company and then came to what was then clear 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.240 Point and nonprofit and took a substantial pay cut, and um, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.640 it was during the recession, and things got pretty ugly 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.679 for me. So I had to take steps to improve 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.160 my situation and find my footing and and get all 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.320 that under control. Wow. That that's a big story in 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.719 a short amount of time. That is the reader's digest. 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.120 That is, Yeah, that's about a decade of financial journey 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.840 in sixty seconds. The yeah, I mean, I can't imagine that. 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.840 The personal difficulty, and you know, the financial difficulty just 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.200 seems almost paling comparison to I'm sure some the other 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.719 things you were going through. But you know, we we 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:01.839 do want to talk more about the financial stuff. What 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.760 what were the major steps that you took in order 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.120 to stay afloat and pay off your debt while you 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.640 lost your job and you were going to you took 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.440 a substantial paket, Like how are you staying afloat? Right? 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.240 So I really just I took a look pretty much 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.120 at every expense I had, and any expense that I 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.800 had either I had to cut or figure out how 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:27.040 to reduce. And that ranged from living with three people 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:28.760 at one point I had Unfortunately I had a four 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.160 bedroom house, so I was able to sublet rooms, so 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.679 I had other people living in my house. I sold 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.360 a car and bought a ten year old car, one 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.960 that I could pay cash for and not have a 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.000 loan on um, and had insurance, you know, like took 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.119 some some sort of you know, gig sort of work, 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.839 just anything I could possibly think of, any non essential, 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.000 any bill that I had. I was calling to negotiate 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.760 things and and cut memberships and cut subscriptions, and it 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.760 really just took a pruning sharia to a whole the 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.440 whole budget um, which is, you know, similar to what 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.800 we recommend our clients do when they're facing those situations. 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.040 But you know, that was sort of how I tried 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.360 to write the ship, so to speak. And then all 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:12.200 I was one of the first people to get a 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:16.080 homeland modification through the HAMP program the amount of Federal 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.880 Modification program back in two tho nine, and so that 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.880 helps substantially reduce my mortgage payment. So in addition to 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:24.840 the other cuts I had made and the added income 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:28.480 from the um subletting, I was able to stay afloat 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:34.960 and fortunately never never missed a payment on anything credit card, student, loan, mortgage, 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.080 UM in the process. So that was that was really 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.240 good because I was able to maintain my credit and 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.760 m have managed to do that over the years. So 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.560 you're mentioning subletting. These days, a lot of folks are 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.320 calling that house hacking, right, And it's kind of like 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.400 an extreme step I think for a lot of folks 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.880 to kind of change their living situation, going from I 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.880 own this house myself to oh, now I have roommates. 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.960 But that can make a huge difference on the absolute 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.880 of your expenses every single month. Like how did you 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:04.920 get to that point? Like how did you think that, Like, oh, 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.400 I I can get roommates, Like that's an option for me. Well, 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.080 I think it might have been a little bit easier 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:11.760 for me for a couple of reasons. First of all, 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.119 you know, keep in mind that I was substantially younger 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.440 than I was also a single guy, and I had 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.560 also pretty much always had at least one roommate anyway, 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.120 as long as I had moved out from my parents 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.920 back in the day. So it really wasn't a huge 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:28.640 big of a deal for me, is it probably would 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:30.360 be for somebody who lives alone or who just lives 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.560 with a partner. Right, It was really just a matter 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.320 of adding more roommates. Um I pretty much always had 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.960 at least one, So that wasn't too big of a 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:40.840 jump for me. You know, obviously it comes with stresses, 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.360 and there's personality conflicts and the other person's financial situation 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.800 that you've got to accommodate. You know, sometimes as well, 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.079 it's just piling up in the sink right right, right, 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.360 So but you know it, fortunately it worked out for me, 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.840 and between that and the modification, it was it kept 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.800 everything on track and it really really got me through 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.959 that time. I also did do temporary um hardship forbearance 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.720 on the student loans, so that helped as well, suspending 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.240 those payments. But you know, ultimately I was able to 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.840 just sort of cobble together a plan, you know, between 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.160 all these various little little pieces, and you know, I 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.760 was looking at things that worked ten twenty bucks a month, right, No, 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.680 no stone was really going unturned as far as things 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.680 that I could I could try. But you know, fortunately 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.719 I was only actually out of work for I think 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.640 two or three weeks. UM. I took at tempt job 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.480 temporarily in between my previous job where I had been 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.079 seven years and where I am now, and I've been 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.200 here I guess twelve is years. So fortunately it didn't 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.640 take me long to find another position. Even though it 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.079 was a lower paying job, I was able to find employment, 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:42.720 which is you know, I'm very thankful for that because 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:44.040 there were a lot of people at that time that 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.720 we're having a very hard time finding jobs. And when 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.040 I came to what was then clear point that's what 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.840 I was doing was counseling people who were really experiencing 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.360 the same thing that I had just been through. So 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.720 it was, you know, really helpful for me to have 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.679 experienced that personally. While it was painful, it was very 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.280 helpful for the perspective of saying, listen, if I can 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:04.679 do this, you can do this, here's what you need 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:06.880 to do, here's what I did, that's what worked for me. 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.000 Let's figure this out together. And it was it really 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.040 made for a much easier time creating that rapport with 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.880 my clients during that UM time during the recession. To 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.160 have had that personal experience. Yeah, and Thomas, you actually 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:24.320 went from someone being counseled at clear Point to working 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.880 for clear Point. And I've heard you say before that 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.440 the hardest thing for people to do oftentimes is to 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.160 take the first step to come in and seek help. 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:34.360 So how are you able to take that first step 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.240 to find it and receive help from a not non 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:41.559 for profit credit counseling company. What made you decide this 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.360 is the step I have to take right now? I 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.000 would say a couple of things. First of all, like 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.360 I said, I was exploring every option, and I'm like, 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.880 you know, if it's a nonprofit and they can give 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.440 me some advice, let's see what they have to say. 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.680 You know, I don't have to do anything based on 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.880 their advice, but let's see what they have to say. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:58.599 And here in the St. Louis area, it used to 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.439 be called Consumer Credit Counseling SERVI says, and I was 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.200 familiar with that name from way back in the day. 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.360 But the funny part of the story is that after 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:06.480 I came to clear Point, because of the name change, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.559 I didn't realize the clear Point was the same as CCCS. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:14.640 And I actually found my myself in our database and 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.079 I was. It was kind of jarring. Yeah, it was 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.120 jarring because I'm like, wait a minute, why am I 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.760 in here? And then I'm like, oh my gosh, these 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.760 are the people that I talked to a few years ago. Um, 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.880 So it's a yeah, very serendipitous or whatever you wanna 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.439 call it. But yes, I was a former client. I 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.040 ultimately didn't end up going through a debt management program 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:36.439 with clear Point CCCS at that time because I had 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.760 around ten thousand dollars with a credit card debt. But 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:40.600 I talked about it with a counselor and she's like, 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:42.800 you know, you really just need to buckle down and 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.360 get your stuff together. Really, it was sort of a 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.640 wake up call and she's like, you know, you could 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:49.880 use our our repayment program if you wanted to or 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.000 if you feel like it's out of control, but you 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:53.679 really just need to buckle down. And so it was 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.520 really sort of helpful from wake up call into for 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.040 advice on my other advice on my budget and from 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.880 that perspective. So I had received counseling from clear Point. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.040 I ultimately did end up going through a repayment program 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.680 with clear Point, but it certainly did help to understand 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.400 what my options were and to sort of get that 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:11.679 reassurance that I can handle it. I just need to 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.120 really buckle down and organize. Yeah, I bet with a 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.480 different you know, counselors that that work for y'all just 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.560 got to be a certain degree of empathy, right, Like, 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.200 there's people calling up there in tough positions. I'm assuming 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.000 like that's what you heard when you called up as well, 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.360 you were able to connect with with someone, and you know, 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.959 you said that it was more of a wake up call, right, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:32.640 And I think the other reason that it was a 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.280 little bit easier is that our industry has gone from 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.120 a very face to face model back and back and 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.720 when we were founded back in the fifties and sixties seventies, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.360 and instead of being face to face, we're now telephone 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.920 and internet based. And I do recall sitting in a 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.199 parking garage at a mall and being on the phone 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:51.840 with the counselor, and I think that might have been 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:53.199 why it was easier for me to make that call 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:54.760 as well. Because I didn't have to go in and 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.400 actually face anybody. I could make the call. And you know, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:59.559 there's sort of a little bit of like anonymity or 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.600 are pretty action or you know, emotional protection I guess 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.959 of of having that interaction on a phone call or 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.320 through a computer versus face to face, it's a little 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.280 there's not as much fear of judgment or um, you know, 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.600 getting strange looks or you know, whatever it might be. 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:15.920 So I think that's another factor that sort of helped 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.440 me out. Yeah, well, Thomas, it's really cool that you 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.520 ended up working for the credit counseling company that helped 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.000 you out in the first place. And we want to 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:26.840 talk more about some of the specifics of what a 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.720 not for profit credit counseling company can do, and also 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.360 kind of debt management plans, debt repayment help, that kind 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.440 of stuff. We'll get to some of those questions right 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:45.200 after the break. M All right, Joel, we're back from 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.439 the break. We're talking here with Thomas Niche about debt 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.200 and let's go ahead now and dive into debt repayment 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.959 plans and some of the different help that's out there. Thomas, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.280 like debt repayment help. These are some shark infestive waters. 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:02.720 How can individuals find legitimate help when they're attempting to 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.640 pay off a large amount of debt. It really comes 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.400 down to doing your due diligence and then understanding what 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.800 debt relief options are available based on your situation. You know, 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.559 we hear a lot about debt relief or debt consolidation, 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.240 and to the average consumer that that means one thing. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.120 Into that somebody who actually works in the industry it 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.640 means something quite differently. So when we talk about debt consolidation, 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.760 we're usually thinking a debt consolidation loan, right, creating a 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.680 new loan to pay off other debt and consolidated. When 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.640 consumers here that term, they sort of lump sort of 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.000 any debt relief into that. Like they consider our debt 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.640 manager program a consolidation because it does consolidate the payments, 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.480 or they consider a debt settlement company a consolidation because 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.320 it does again consolidate the payment. They make one payment 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.320 to the debt settle my company. And then again you 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:56.280 have loans as well. So there's a lot of confusion 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:01.280 around what these different types of debt relief are. Um 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.560 So one of the projects that I had at at 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.640 clear point was, you know, helping consumers understand those differences 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:11.240 and those nuances of what options are available. We created 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.240 an Ultimate Debt Relief Guide that sort of gives the 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.040 pros and cons of each one of these to help 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:17.040 people understand that, you know, based on the type of 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:21.240 debt they have and where they are, what the status 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.960 of the debt is, what the best option for them 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.400 is based on that, you know, it can range anywhere 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.920 from doing a debt snowball and just getting more organized, 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.160 and your personal finances can range all the way up 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.760 to bankruptcy. There's a sort of a flow chart of 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:39.880 like where range very wide, range right. And if you're 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.200 dealing with somebody who's a you know, in the in 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.640 the for profit industry, or who is working on commission 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.760 or whatever it might be, they're obviously going to be 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.080 motivated to sell you on what they are selling you. 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:50.840 If you go to a bankruptcy attorney, they're gonna want 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.560 you to file bankruptcy. If you contact a debt settlement company, 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.680 they're gonna want you to file a settlement. Just understanding 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.440 that and looking up reviews, looking for of people who 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.359 have used that service, looking to objective sources of advice, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.360 you know, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or any other 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.320 number of um government or nonprofit or thank tank sort 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:17.440 of organizations so that you're not relying on advertisement or 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.600 somebody who's trying to push their product. Right. Yeah, even 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.680 a Google ad can be presented in front of information, right, 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.120 and that's one of the worst places. Right. But on 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.800 the other hand, a simple Google search can also raise 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:31.600 a lot of flags. I can't tell you how many 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.440 people would contact me during the recession who were who 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.400 had gotten tangled up with a debt settlement company or 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.160 a complete scam like somebody outside the country who was 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.520 promising to relieve them of debt for a fee if 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.280 they would wire them money to Canada. Right. And then 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.320 you know, a simple Google search of the name of 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.080 the company that that they were thought they were dealing 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.080 with would reveal that it was a scam like off 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:02.040 report dot com. And consumers are constantly posting about websites 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.720 that have scanned amount of money. Yeah. And and the 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:06.959 other thing is to go ahead and get a second opinion. 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.000 You know, just because you spent an hour on the 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:10.800 phone with somebody and you think that's the right plan 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.840 for you, don't hesitate to reach out to somebody else 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.080 and educate yourself and and you know, get all your 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.879 options down on paper, get two or three options down 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:21.600 on paper, and then make a decision on what you 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.480 want to do based on all the information. So, just 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.320 to kind of hammer the point home here, Thomas, like 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.080 these for profit oftentimes companies, they make a lot of 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.520 claims about what they can do, how they can help 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.159 you with your debt. What are some of the worst 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.440 things that you've seen for profit companies due to take 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.080 advantage of people. Right, So, the biggest thing historically we've 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.919 seen with at least debt settlement companies and what they 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.359 call credit doctors who are promising to improve your credit 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.600 um is that they make these claims, right, we can 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.800 settle your debt for pennies on the dollar. But then 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.680 what they don't often explain is how they work, which 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.440 is that you quit paying your creditors and they don't 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.840 pay your creditors either, and you make payment to the 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.400 um that they then hold in escrow until there's enough 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.960 in that account to offer the creditor a settlement once 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.560 it's in collections. So it would come to a great 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:09.920 surprise to many of my clients who would reach out 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.399 to me and be like, well, they're not paying my bills, 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.399 why aren't they paying my bills, and I'm like, well, 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.160 they're a debt settlement company, and here's how debt settlement works, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.160 and here's some information you can read about it. They're 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:21.879 gonna stop paying until there's enough to settle. That's their 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.719 whole thing is settling the debt. And if you're currently 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.399 paying a credit card company, that credit card companies likely 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:29.400 not going to agree to a settlement because they're getting 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.040 their payment. You have to stop paying and go to 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.199 get into collections, get into a collection status before you 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.320 can do a settlement. So it's really a lot of 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:42.160 education and just um telling people how that actually works. Yeah, 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.359 I mean, you're talking about educating, you know, the folks 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:45.680 who are coming to you. It seems that one of 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.520 the biggest differences maybe between a nonprofit like you guys, 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.480 and a scam company or even a for profit company, 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.399 is that nonprofits seek to educate consumers versus you know, 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.560 just a for profit company essentially just viewing their you know, 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.280 the consumer as more as customers, right right, And so yeah, 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:04.920 I mean like it sounds like education is a really 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.239 important step, a really important sort of prong of of 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.000 what it is that y'all offer your your clients exactly, 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.879 and that's why and how we operate as a nonprofit. 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:15.959 So with every client that we counsel, we provide them 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.159 with education and an action plan as far as what 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.280 they might do next, what are the next steps for you? 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:22.760