Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
Speaker 1: and today we're discussing where to turn for debt and
Speaker 1: budget help with Thomas Nichi, Yeah, Juel. In his early twenties,
Speaker 1: Thomas Nichi, he found himself in loads of debts. Like
Speaker 1: so many folks, he didn't learn how credit cards really worked,
Speaker 1: and so the charges began to add up, and before
Speaker 1: he knew it, he had an overwhelming balance that he
Speaker 1: could barely make minimum payments on. And then a couple
Speaker 1: that consumer spending with student loans, a card payment, a mortgage,
Speaker 1: and then the final kicker, getting laid off and losing
Speaker 1: his income. Thomas found himself in a really stressful spot,
Speaker 1: but he was able to move from a place of
Speaker 1: desperation to using his experience to help others. He now
Speaker 1: works for Money Management International, which is the largest provider
Speaker 1: of nonprofit financial counseling and education in the United States.
Speaker 1: He's all about conversations around money and de stigmatizing debts,
Speaker 1: and that's what we're going to do today. So Thomas,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. Man, Hey,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Thomas. We're
Speaker 1: glad to have you. By the way, Matt and I
Speaker 1: we drink a beer every week on the show, and
Speaker 1: it's to signify that we sport on something we love
Speaker 1: right now while also at the same time trying to
Speaker 1: save and invest well for the future. Today on the show,
Speaker 1: we're drinking Experimental I p a volume thirteen by a
Speaker 1: local homebrewer called easy Chair Brewing Garage. So I want
Speaker 1: to ask you, what's your craft beer, what's your equivalent?
Speaker 1: What do you sploreage on right now while you're saving
Speaker 1: for your future? Absolutely well, I love dark beer and
Speaker 1: I love wheat beer, but I wouldn't say that's my splurge.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, beer's pretty affordable, and I don't
Speaker 1: go to overboard. But I would say that I splurge
Speaker 1: on travel, at least during times when we're not experiencing
Speaker 1: a pandemic. I travel about once a month to various places.
Speaker 1: My partner owns a time share at the Atlantis and
Speaker 1: the Bahamas, and so we go there pretty regularly and
Speaker 1: doesn't always have to be that fancy though. I'll go
Speaker 1: to the lake a lot nearby in the summertime and
Speaker 1: just love to get out and see new places and spaces.
Speaker 1: So nice. Uh so, yeah, well maybe where is maybe
Speaker 1: some of the more adventurous spots have have you been? Like?
Speaker 1: Do you do? You do you go abroad much as
Speaker 1: far as to like some of those countries that some
Speaker 1: folks have never I guess been to or heard of. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So my partner works for a nonprofit music oriented nonprofit
Speaker 1: and they tour US bands overseas, and so I would
Speaker 1: say the most adventurous was when I joined him on
Speaker 1: one of those tours in Belize. It was a lot
Speaker 1: of fun and got to see a lot of cool places,
Speaker 1: got lost by myself a few times. It's all fun
Speaker 1: in a strange, you know, country, but that was a
Speaker 1: really cool experience. I don't travel internationally as much as
Speaker 1: I would probably like because I do help take care
Speaker 1: of family back here in Illinois, and so it makes
Speaker 1: me a little nervous to travel that far. But I
Speaker 1: do travel domestic quite a bit, and to the Bahamas
Speaker 1: very cool. You know, Joe and I we both have
Speaker 1: little kids, little babies at home these days, so travel
Speaker 1: isn't something that we are doing very often these days.
Speaker 1: But obviously, like you said, I'm sure that's something that
Speaker 1: you're not even doing all that much these days. I
Speaker 1: think I saw something like airline travels down at this point.
Speaker 1: Nobody's traveling right now. You can't even get a direct flight.
Speaker 1: In my partner with saying he can't get a direct
Speaker 1: flight from here to d C. Right now from St.
Speaker 1: Louis a DC, you can't even get a direct anymore.
Speaker 1: So that's crazy man. Well, Thomas, we really appreciate you
Speaker 1: joining us. Uh, we kind of wanted to start at
Speaker 1: the beginning of your relationship with money really, um, you know,
Speaker 1: at the beginning of your store. It's a it's a
Speaker 1: pretty familiar one. In your twenties, you got into credit
Speaker 1: card trouble. Can you kind of recount that story, like
Speaker 1: how did all that happen? Yeah? For sure, So I
Speaker 1: would say even earlier than that, because I'm now going
Speaker 1: on forty one, and you know, back in the day,
Speaker 1: the credit card companies could market to you when you
Speaker 1: were at junior college, right, um, and give you a
Speaker 1: free T shirt with a credit card application, that sort
Speaker 1: of stuff, which they were not allowed to do anymore. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I had eighteen, nineteen years old. They handed
Speaker 1: me a platinum credit card with a ten thousand dollar limit,
Speaker 1: and I don't think I was making ten thousand dollars
Speaker 1: a year at that point, so that is sort of
Speaker 1: the slippery slope that I started down. I came from
Speaker 1: a religious family, and the extent of my credit education
Speaker 1: was the debt is bad, with no real explanation of
Speaker 1: of why. So like any good teenager, I rebelled and
Speaker 1: got a credit card and started using it. So um
Speaker 1: that that's sort of where it all started for me,
Speaker 1: and then it just sort of snowballed from there. Like
Speaker 1: I was in the process of coming out when I
Speaker 1: was in my late teens early twenties, and I um
Speaker 1: exited my living situation with my family rather hastily and
Speaker 1: under those sort of pressures, and um kind of had
Speaker 1: to just build my life from scratch, and unfortunately, credit
Speaker 1: cards had to sort of support that process because I
Speaker 1: wasn't getting that support from from family or or anybody else.
Speaker 1: So that's sort of where it all start hearted for me,
Speaker 1: and then just over the years it just never really
Speaker 1: went away. I managed it, but I never really got
Speaker 1: it paid off. And even up until the time that
Speaker 1: I owned my first house and then my second house,
Speaker 1: I still had sort of like nagging credit card debt
Speaker 1: and then when the recession hit in two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: is when I got laid off and I went from
Speaker 1: a high paying job at a at a global financial
Speaker 1: services company and then came to what was then clear
Speaker 1: Point and nonprofit and took a substantial pay cut, and um,
Speaker 1: it was during the recession, and things got pretty ugly
Speaker 1: for me. So I had to take steps to improve
Speaker 1: my situation and find my footing and and get all
Speaker 1: that under control. Wow. That that's a big story in
Speaker 1: a short amount of time. That is the reader's digest.
Speaker 1: That is, Yeah, that's about a decade of financial journey
Speaker 1: in sixty seconds. The yeah, I mean, I can't imagine that.
Speaker 1: The personal difficulty, and you know, the financial difficulty just
Speaker 1: seems almost paling comparison to I'm sure some the other
Speaker 1: things you were going through. But you know, we we
Speaker 1: do want to talk more about the financial stuff. What
Speaker 1: what were the major steps that you took in order
Speaker 1: to stay afloat and pay off your debt while you
Speaker 1: lost your job and you were going to you took
Speaker 1: a substantial paket, Like how are you staying afloat? Right?
Speaker 1: So I really just I took a look pretty much
Speaker 1: at every expense I had, and any expense that I
Speaker 1: had either I had to cut or figure out how
Speaker 1: to reduce. And that ranged from living with three people
Speaker 1: at one point I had Unfortunately I had a four
Speaker 1: bedroom house, so I was able to sublet rooms, so
Speaker 1: I had other people living in my house. I sold
Speaker 1: a car and bought a ten year old car, one
Speaker 1: that I could pay cash for and not have a
Speaker 1: loan on um, and had insurance, you know, like took
Speaker 1: some some sort of you know, gig sort of work,
Speaker 1: just anything I could possibly think of, any non essential,
Speaker 1: any bill that I had. I was calling to negotiate
Speaker 1: things and and cut memberships and cut subscriptions, and it
Speaker 1: really just took a pruning sharia to a whole the
Speaker 1: whole budget um, which is, you know, similar to what
Speaker 1: we recommend our clients do when they're facing those situations.
Speaker 1: But you know, that was sort of how I tried
Speaker 1: to write the ship, so to speak. And then all
Speaker 1: I was one of the first people to get a
Speaker 1: homeland modification through the HAMP program the amount of Federal
Speaker 1: Modification program back in two tho nine, and so that
Speaker 1: helps substantially reduce my mortgage payment. So in addition to
Speaker 1: the other cuts I had made and the added income
Speaker 1: from the um subletting, I was able to stay afloat
Speaker 1: and fortunately never never missed a payment on anything credit card, student, loan, mortgage,
Speaker 1: UM in the process. So that was that was really
Speaker 1: good because I was able to maintain my credit and
Speaker 1: m have managed to do that over the years. So
Speaker 1: you're mentioning subletting. These days, a lot of folks are
Speaker 1: calling that house hacking, right, And it's kind of like
Speaker 1: an extreme step I think for a lot of folks
Speaker 1: to kind of change their living situation, going from I
Speaker 1: own this house myself to oh, now I have roommates.
Speaker 1: But that can make a huge difference on the absolute
Speaker 1: of your expenses every single month. Like how did you
Speaker 1: get to that point? Like how did you think that, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: I I can get roommates, Like that's an option for me. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it might have been a little bit easier
Speaker 1: for me for a couple of reasons. First of all,
Speaker 1: you know, keep in mind that I was substantially younger
Speaker 1: than I was also a single guy, and I had
Speaker 1: also pretty much always had at least one roommate anyway,
Speaker 1: as long as I had moved out from my parents
Speaker 1: back in the day. So it really wasn't a huge
Speaker 1: big of a deal for me, is it probably would
Speaker 1: be for somebody who lives alone or who just lives
Speaker 1: with a partner. Right, It was really just a matter
Speaker 1: of adding more roommates. Um I pretty much always had
Speaker 1: at least one, So that wasn't too big of a
Speaker 1: jump for me. You know, obviously it comes with stresses,
Speaker 1: and there's personality conflicts and the other person's financial situation
Speaker 1: that you've got to accommodate. You know, sometimes as well,
Speaker 1: it's just piling up in the sink right right, right,
Speaker 1: So but you know it, fortunately it worked out for me,
Speaker 1: and between that and the modification, it was it kept
Speaker 1: everything on track and it really really got me through
Speaker 1: that time. I also did do temporary um hardship forbearance
Speaker 1: on the student loans, so that helped as well, suspending
Speaker 1: those payments. But you know, ultimately I was able to
Speaker 1: just sort of cobble together a plan, you know, between
Speaker 1: all these various little little pieces, and you know, I
Speaker 1: was looking at things that worked ten twenty bucks a month, right, No,
Speaker 1: no stone was really going unturned as far as things
Speaker 1: that I could I could try. But you know, fortunately
Speaker 1: I was only actually out of work for I think
Speaker 1: two or three weeks. UM. I took at tempt job
Speaker 1: temporarily in between my previous job where I had been
Speaker 1: seven years and where I am now, and I've been
Speaker 1: here I guess twelve is years. So fortunately it didn't
Speaker 1: take me long to find another position. Even though it
Speaker 1: was a lower paying job, I was able to find employment,
Speaker 1: which is you know, I'm very thankful for that because
Speaker 1: there were a lot of people at that time that
Speaker 1: we're having a very hard time finding jobs. And when
Speaker 1: I came to what was then clear point that's what
Speaker 1: I was doing was counseling people who were really experiencing
Speaker 1: the same thing that I had just been through. So
Speaker 1: it was, you know, really helpful for me to have
Speaker 1: experienced that personally. While it was painful, it was very
Speaker 1: helpful for the perspective of saying, listen, if I can
Speaker 1: do this, you can do this, here's what you need
Speaker 1: to do, here's what I did, that's what worked for me.
Speaker 1: Let's figure this out together. And it was it really
Speaker 1: made for a much easier time creating that rapport with
Speaker 1: my clients during that UM time during the recession. To
Speaker 1: have had that personal experience. Yeah, and Thomas, you actually
Speaker 1: went from someone being counseled at clear Point to working
Speaker 1: for clear Point. And I've heard you say before that
Speaker 1: the hardest thing for people to do oftentimes is to
Speaker 1: take the first step to come in and seek help.
Speaker 1: So how are you able to take that first step
Speaker 1: to find it and receive help from a not non
Speaker 1: for profit credit counseling company. What made you decide this
Speaker 1: is the step I have to take right now? I
Speaker 1: would say a couple of things. First of all, like
Speaker 1: I said, I was exploring every option, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, if it's a nonprofit and they can give
Speaker 1: me some advice, let's see what they have to say.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't have to do anything based on
Speaker 1: their advice, but let's see what they have to say.
Speaker 1: And here in the St. Louis area, it used to
Speaker 1: be called Consumer Credit Counseling SERVI says, and I was
Speaker 1: familiar with that name from way back in the day.
Speaker 1: But the funny part of the story is that after
Speaker 1: I came to clear Point, because of the name change,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize the clear Point was the same as CCCS.
Speaker 1: And I actually found my myself in our database and
Speaker 1: I was. It was kind of jarring. Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: jarring because I'm like, wait a minute, why am I
Speaker 1: in here? And then I'm like, oh my gosh, these
Speaker 1: are the people that I talked to a few years ago. Um,
Speaker 1: So it's a yeah, very serendipitous or whatever you wanna
Speaker 1: call it. But yes, I was a former client. I
Speaker 1: ultimately didn't end up going through a debt management program
Speaker 1: with clear Point CCCS at that time because I had
Speaker 1: around ten thousand dollars with a credit card debt. But
Speaker 1: I talked about it with a counselor and she's like,
Speaker 1: you know, you really just need to buckle down and
Speaker 1: get your stuff together. Really, it was sort of a
Speaker 1: wake up call and she's like, you know, you could
Speaker 1: use our our repayment program if you wanted to or
Speaker 1: if you feel like it's out of control, but you
Speaker 1: really just need to buckle down. And so it was
Speaker 1: really sort of helpful from wake up call into for
Speaker 1: advice on my other advice on my budget and from
Speaker 1: that perspective. So I had received counseling from clear Point.
Speaker 1: I ultimately did end up going through a repayment program
Speaker 1: with clear Point, but it certainly did help to understand
Speaker 1: what my options were and to sort of get that
Speaker 1: reassurance that I can handle it. I just need to
Speaker 1: really buckle down and organize. Yeah, I bet with a
Speaker 1: different you know, counselors that that work for y'all just
Speaker 1: got to be a certain degree of empathy, right, Like,
Speaker 1: there's people calling up there in tough positions. I'm assuming
Speaker 1: like that's what you heard when you called up as well,
Speaker 1: you were able to connect with with someone, and you know,
Speaker 1: you said that it was more of a wake up call, right,
Speaker 1: And I think the other reason that it was a
Speaker 1: little bit easier is that our industry has gone from
Speaker 1: a very face to face model back and back and
Speaker 1: when we were founded back in the fifties and sixties seventies,
Speaker 1: and instead of being face to face, we're now telephone
Speaker 1: and internet based. And I do recall sitting in a
Speaker 1: parking garage at a mall and being on the phone
Speaker 1: with the counselor, and I think that might have been
Speaker 1: why it was easier for me to make that call
Speaker 1: as well. Because I didn't have to go in and
Speaker 1: actually face anybody. I could make the call. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's sort of a little bit of like anonymity or
Speaker 1: are pretty action or you know, emotional protection I guess
Speaker 1: of of having that interaction on a phone call or
Speaker 1: through a computer versus face to face, it's a little
Speaker 1: there's not as much fear of judgment or um, you know,
Speaker 1: getting strange looks or you know, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1: So I think that's another factor that sort of helped
Speaker 1: me out. Yeah, well, Thomas, it's really cool that you
Speaker 1: ended up working for the credit counseling company that helped
Speaker 1: you out in the first place. And we want to
Speaker 1: talk more about some of the specifics of what a
Speaker 1: not for profit credit counseling company can do, and also
Speaker 1: kind of debt management plans, debt repayment help, that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. We'll get to some of those questions right
Speaker 1: after the break. M All right, Joel, we're back from
Speaker 1: the break. We're talking here with Thomas Niche about debt
Speaker 1: and let's go ahead now and dive into debt repayment
Speaker 1: plans and some of the different help that's out there. Thomas,
Speaker 1: like debt repayment help. These are some shark infestive waters.
Speaker 1: How can individuals find legitimate help when they're attempting to
Speaker 1: pay off a large amount of debt. It really comes
Speaker 1: down to doing your due diligence and then understanding what
Speaker 1: debt relief options are available based on your situation. You know,
Speaker 1: we hear a lot about debt relief or debt consolidation,
Speaker 1: and to the average consumer that that means one thing.
Speaker 1: Into that somebody who actually works in the industry it
Speaker 1: means something quite differently. So when we talk about debt consolidation,
Speaker 1: we're usually thinking a debt consolidation loan, right, creating a
Speaker 1: new loan to pay off other debt and consolidated. When
Speaker 1: consumers here that term, they sort of lump sort of
Speaker 1: any debt relief into that. Like they consider our debt
Speaker 1: manager program a consolidation because it does consolidate the payments,
Speaker 1: or they consider a debt settlement company a consolidation because
Speaker 1: it does again consolidate the payment. They make one payment
Speaker 1: to the debt settle my company. And then again you
Speaker 1: have loans as well. So there's a lot of confusion
Speaker 1: around what these different types of debt relief are. Um
Speaker 1: So one of the projects that I had at at
Speaker 1: clear point was, you know, helping consumers understand those differences
Speaker 1: and those nuances of what options are available. We created
Speaker 1: an Ultimate Debt Relief Guide that sort of gives the
Speaker 1: pros and cons of each one of these to help
Speaker 1: people understand that, you know, based on the type of
Speaker 1: debt they have and where they are, what the status
Speaker 1: of the debt is, what the best option for them
Speaker 1: is based on that, you know, it can range anywhere
Speaker 1: from doing a debt snowball and just getting more organized,
Speaker 1: and your personal finances can range all the way up
Speaker 1: to bankruptcy. There's a sort of a flow chart of
Speaker 1: like where range very wide, range right. And if you're
Speaker 1: dealing with somebody who's a you know, in the in
Speaker 1: the for profit industry, or who is working on commission
Speaker 1: or whatever it might be, they're obviously going to be
Speaker 1: motivated to sell you on what they are selling you.
Speaker 1: If you go to a bankruptcy attorney, they're gonna want
Speaker 1: you to file bankruptcy. If you contact a debt settlement company,
Speaker 1: they're gonna want you to file a settlement. Just understanding
Speaker 1: that and looking up reviews, looking for of people who
Speaker 1: have used that service, looking to objective sources of advice,
Speaker 1: you know, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or any other
Speaker 1: number of um government or nonprofit or thank tank sort
Speaker 1: of organizations so that you're not relying on advertisement or
Speaker 1: somebody who's trying to push their product. Right. Yeah, even
Speaker 1: a Google ad can be presented in front of information, right,
Speaker 1: and that's one of the worst places. Right. But on
Speaker 1: the other hand, a simple Google search can also raise
Speaker 1: a lot of flags. I can't tell you how many
Speaker 1: people would contact me during the recession who were who
Speaker 1: had gotten tangled up with a debt settlement company or
Speaker 1: a complete scam like somebody outside the country who was
Speaker 1: promising to relieve them of debt for a fee if
Speaker 1: they would wire them money to Canada. Right. And then
Speaker 1: you know, a simple Google search of the name of
Speaker 1: the company that that they were thought they were dealing
Speaker 1: with would reveal that it was a scam like off
Speaker 1: report dot com. And consumers are constantly posting about websites
Speaker 1: that have scanned amount of money. Yeah. And and the
Speaker 1: other thing is to go ahead and get a second opinion.
Speaker 1: You know, just because you spent an hour on the
Speaker 1: phone with somebody and you think that's the right plan
Speaker 1: for you, don't hesitate to reach out to somebody else
Speaker 1: and educate yourself and and you know, get all your
Speaker 1: options down on paper, get two or three options down
Speaker 1: on paper, and then make a decision on what you
Speaker 1: want to do based on all the information. So, just
Speaker 1: to kind of hammer the point home here, Thomas, like
Speaker 1: these for profit oftentimes companies, they make a lot of
Speaker 1: claims about what they can do, how they can help
Speaker 1: you with your debt. What are some of the worst
Speaker 1: things that you've seen for profit companies due to take
Speaker 1: advantage of people. Right, So, the biggest thing historically we've
Speaker 1: seen with at least debt settlement companies and what they
Speaker 1: call credit doctors who are promising to improve your credit
Speaker 1: um is that they make these claims, right, we can
Speaker 1: settle your debt for pennies on the dollar. But then
Speaker 1: what they don't often explain is how they work, which
Speaker 1: is that you quit paying your creditors and they don't
Speaker 1: pay your creditors either, and you make payment to the
Speaker 1: um that they then hold in escrow until there's enough
Speaker 1: in that account to offer the creditor a settlement once
Speaker 1: it's in collections. So it would come to a great
Speaker 1: surprise to many of my clients who would reach out
Speaker 1: to me and be like, well, they're not paying my bills,
Speaker 1: why aren't they paying my bills, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: they're a debt settlement company, and here's how debt settlement works,
Speaker 1: and here's some information you can read about it. They're
Speaker 1: gonna stop paying until there's enough to settle. That's their
Speaker 1: whole thing is settling the debt. And if you're currently
Speaker 1: paying a credit card company, that credit card companies likely
Speaker 1: not going to agree to a settlement because they're getting
Speaker 1: their payment. You have to stop paying and go to
Speaker 1: get into collections, get into a collection status before you
Speaker 1: can do a settlement. So it's really a lot of
Speaker 1: education and just um telling people how that actually works. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you're talking about educating, you know, the folks
Speaker 1: who are coming to you. It seems that one of
Speaker 1: the biggest differences maybe between a nonprofit like you guys,
Speaker 1: and a scam company or even a for profit company,
Speaker 1: is that nonprofits seek to educate consumers versus you know,
Speaker 1: just a for profit company essentially just viewing their you know,
Speaker 1: the consumer as more as customers, right right, And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean like it sounds like education is a really
Speaker 1: important step, a really important sort of prong of of
Speaker 1: what it is that y'all offer your your clients exactly,
Speaker 1: and that's why and how we operate as a nonprofit.
Speaker 1: So with every client that we counsel, we provide them
Speaker 1: with education and an action plan as far as what
Speaker 1: they might do next, what are the next steps for you?
Speaker 1: And in that action plan, we're usually giving giving them
Speaker 1: a few different options that they have that they can
Speaker 1: choose for themselves what is best. And obviously that will
Speaker 1: often include, if appropriate, what we offer long term in
Speaker 1: a debt management program. But if it's not appropriate based
Speaker 1: on where that person is, if they have all collection debt,
Speaker 1: for example, or if they're so underwater that they really
Speaker 1: need to seek legal advice, we're going to tell them that.
Speaker 1: Or if they should do a settlement but they should
Speaker 1: just work with the creditor directly on a settlement, we're
Speaker 1: going to tell them that as well. So, yeah, it
Speaker 1: really is all about education and giving the person the
Speaker 1: right advice based on a snapshot of where that person
Speaker 1: is right now in their financial journey. So that is
Speaker 1: really what we're trying to capture. We gather something like
Speaker 1: two h to points during a counseling session, and the
Speaker 1: reason that we're capturing all that information is to determine
Speaker 1: a financial snapshot of where that person is at so
Speaker 1: that we can make the appropriate suggestions. Thomas, you mentioned
Speaker 1: credit doctors or credit repair services too, and it's really nice.
Speaker 1: We all want to think that we can get something
Speaker 1: done in no time, resolve an issue with with very
Speaker 1: little effort on our parts, and that's kind of what
Speaker 1: some of these repair services claim to do. They promise
Speaker 1: a lot, but they oftentimes don't deliver very much. So
Speaker 1: have you ever seen these credit repair companies deliver meaningful results?
Speaker 1: And what is the best way for people to actually
Speaker 1: start repairing their credit in your opinion? Right, So, a
Speaker 1: credit doctor is like so many things. Yeah, you might
Speaker 1: find one that has good reviews and that is effective
Speaker 1: in getting your credit score increase, But the best way
Speaker 1: to do something is not always the easiest way to
Speaker 1: do something. And when you need good credit, when you
Speaker 1: want to buy a house or a car or whatever,
Speaker 1: you shouldn't start thinking about that the week you want
Speaker 1: to buy that thing, right, you need to be thinking
Speaker 1: about that months, if not years, in advance, and you
Speaker 1: need to be creating good financial habits um creating good
Speaker 1: relationships with your creditors long before you try to accomplish
Speaker 1: the financial goals that you are, life goals that you
Speaker 1: want to accomplish. How a credit doctor works is they
Speaker 1: capitalize on those people who don't do that, which unfortunately
Speaker 1: is many of us. We like to procrastinate. Right, So
Speaker 1: a credit doctor says, hey, I can get your credit
Speaker 1: score up fifty points in the next two months or
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I don't know, you know, that's just
Speaker 1: an example. They may be able to do that, and
Speaker 1: they do that by disputing anything negative that's on your
Speaker 1: credit report. The problem with that is that if that
Speaker 1: debt is then sold again in the future, it can
Speaker 1: show back up on your credit report months or years
Speaker 1: down the road. So it's not to say that they
Speaker 1: are completely ineffective, because that would not be truthful, but
Speaker 1: they are not necessarily the most appropriate or best way
Speaker 1: from a financial management long term financial management standpoint to
Speaker 1: be conducting your your financial business. Just like in your job, right,
Speaker 1: if your boss tells you to do a task, there's
Speaker 1: going to be the easy way, and there's gonna be
Speaker 1: the right way most likely, And if you want to
Speaker 1: have a successful career or want to have a good
Speaker 1: relationship with your boss, um, you probably shouldn't take the
Speaker 1: easy path. So for yourself, Thomas, I like the easy path. Well, hey,
Speaker 1: okay when appropriate, Yes, easy when appropriate. But in many
Speaker 1: cases we all know that the easy you know, the
Speaker 1: the easy path isn't always the best. So um, that's
Speaker 1: really sort of a good analogy to how a credit
Speaker 1: doctor works. It's it's not that they can't work, it's
Speaker 1: just that it may not be the best route to go,
Speaker 1: or it may not sustain you or change your habits
Speaker 1: or really do yourself any favors long term by using them.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like getting a quarter zone shot, like
Speaker 1: on the sidelines. You know, it's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: like this will get me through the rest of the game,
Speaker 1: the rest of the match or something like that. But
Speaker 1: like long term, you don't want to keep doing that,
Speaker 1: Like you're gonna just wreck your body if you keep
Speaker 1: you know, not addressing the underlying issue there. Speaks from
Speaker 1: experience from his m M A days. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know, if you see me, I'm jacked. Uh. Well,
Speaker 1: so at the times, often like being debt, this means
Speaker 1: for individuals getting like sometimes these shady phone calls and emails, right,
Speaker 1: and so for folks looking to kind of handle some
Speaker 1: of the steps themselves, Like what rights do individuals have
Speaker 1: when it comes to dealing with these creditors? Who are
Speaker 1: you know, hounding them? Yeah, so again comes back to education.
Speaker 1: You need to really need to go out and look
Speaker 1: at the fair debt collection practices actually that you know
Speaker 1: what a creditor can and cannot do. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: they shouldn't be calling you at three in the morning
Speaker 1: or threatening to show up at your door or send
Speaker 1: the cops or anything like that. You know, if you're
Speaker 1: being harassed, you do have recourse. You can file complaints
Speaker 1: with the CFPB or with your state's attorney general's office.
Speaker 1: You know, you may even have grounds for a lawsuit.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you need to You definitely need to know
Speaker 1: your rights. On the other hand, you also know when
Speaker 1: you need to take action. If you receive us if
Speaker 1: you receive a legitimate court summons for a court appearance,
Speaker 1: you better show up and explain your situation. And even
Speaker 1: if that means even if you can't pay it, you
Speaker 1: need to go and explain your situation because if you
Speaker 1: don't show up, if you ignore it, um, they get
Speaker 1: a default judgment against you. So there are some people
Speaker 1: you know that our judgment proof they might be collecting
Speaker 1: soul security or disability. They might add own property. There
Speaker 1: may be no way for the creditor to collect ever
Speaker 1: collect that money. But you you don't want to ignore summons? Sure? Yeah,
Speaker 1: those are some some good tips. What about what what abilities? Thomas?
Speaker 1: Does a nonprofit company like Money Management International have to
Speaker 1: help resolve debt issues with creditors that people might not
Speaker 1: have access to on their own. Are there certain specific
Speaker 1: tools and abilities that y'all offer that people wouldn't be
Speaker 1: able to get on their own when it comes to
Speaker 1: dealing with creditors. Sure in some cases. Yes. So the
Speaker 1: way we work is that we have long standing relationships
Speaker 1: with most, if not all, of the major national creditors
Speaker 1: and some smaller regional creditors in what is called a
Speaker 1: debt manager program known as a d MP. And basically,
Speaker 1: if we do accounseling session with someone and we determine
Speaker 1: that they are a good fit for a debt management program,
Speaker 1: we will make that recommendation. I think it's somewhere around
Speaker 1: a fourth of the total people that we counsel we
Speaker 1: will make that recommendation, and if the person decides to
Speaker 1: enroll in the debt management program, we then communicate with
Speaker 1: their creditors, and we know up front what most creditors
Speaker 1: will do by way of concessions. That means a reduced
Speaker 1: interest rate, reduced payment, a fixed interest rate, and a
Speaker 1: fixed payment for the life of the repayment so that
Speaker 1: you're not surprised, you know, you're not ever surprised by
Speaker 1: how much your bill is. It stays the same and
Speaker 1: it locks that rate into a lower rate. So on average,
Speaker 1: we're able to lower people's rates to about seven point
Speaker 1: three percent um and it creates a four year repayment
Speaker 1: plan um, possibly longer if you have a high level
Speaker 1: of debt. So yeah, so we set that program up,
Speaker 1: We send proposals to each of the creditors, we get
Speaker 1: their agreement to that. That's probably the primary difference between
Speaker 1: us and a settlement companies that many times the settlement
Speaker 1: company is not getting that up front agreement from the creditor.
Speaker 1: They are defaulted, allowing you to default on the debt
Speaker 1: and then they're hoping for the best basically as far
Speaker 1: as what they're able to settle for. Whereas we contact
Speaker 1: the creditor on the front end with a proposal to
Speaker 1: get their agreement to it, and then the consumer agrees
Speaker 1: to the repayment plan, the creditor agrees to your payment plan,
Speaker 1: and as long as that consumer is able to stick
Speaker 1: to that payment for those forty seven months on average,
Speaker 1: they are then debt free with all you know, whatever
Speaker 1: debt they included on that program. Now, the caveat, of course,
Speaker 1: is that it is for unsecured debts, so that's things
Speaker 1: like credit cards, retail store cards, some personal loans, that
Speaker 1: sort of thing, not anything that's secured, so you can't
Speaker 1: put a mortgage or a car or your r V
Speaker 1: or boat or whatever. Or student loans also do not
Speaker 1: work in debt management programs, So that's sort of an
Speaker 1: overview of how that works. Gosh, it makes me think
Speaker 1: just this conversation, is there anybody out there who is
Speaker 1: better served by going directly to for profit companies and
Speaker 1: not going to a not for profit credit counseling place. First,
Speaker 1: I think it's a great idea to get some objective advice.
Speaker 1: First reason being that depending on the status of the debt,
Speaker 1: you could be better served with the debt management program
Speaker 1: than doing a settlement. Because as we've found that our
Speaker 1: average client who goes through a debt management program increases
Speaker 1: their credit square by about seventy points in the first
Speaker 1: two years of their debt management program. There might be
Speaker 1: an initial dip because we do require that the accounts
Speaker 1: be closed when they enter the debt management program. So
Speaker 1: as you know, when you close a line of credit,
Speaker 1: that's gonna ding your credit score a few points um
Speaker 1: So there is an initial dip, but within two years
Speaker 1: on average we see a sixty credit score increase. That
Speaker 1: is not going to be the case usually when you
Speaker 1: do a debt settlement. Also, it's a good place to
Speaker 1: start with us because if your debt is already in
Speaker 1: collections and we're not going to be able to be
Speaker 1: as an as effective with you with a debt management program,
Speaker 1: because typically a debt MANAGEMIP program is most effective when
Speaker 1: the debt is still with the original creditor. It does
Speaker 1: not necessarily need to be current, but you have about
Speaker 1: three months from the time that you default on a
Speaker 1: credit card to get it back in good standing before
Speaker 1: it gets charged off to a collection agency. So it's
Speaker 1: really important to take action in those first three months.
Speaker 1: Reach out, try to do everything you can do either
Speaker 1: contact the credit or directly to get a hardship plan,
Speaker 1: especially if you're impacted by COVID or some other um
Speaker 1: economic personal economic hardship, or reach out to a nonprofit
Speaker 1: credit counselor so that we can work with the credit
Speaker 1: card company to get that account rehabilitated and back on
Speaker 1: track and get it reporting positively on your credit report again. Now,
Speaker 1: if you're somebody who's let that account go more than
Speaker 1: three months and you're in collections, then yes, it is
Speaker 1: possible that at that point that credit damage is done,
Speaker 1: you may not be in a position to make full
Speaker 1: payment or what the payment is that they want. So
Speaker 1: it could be in your best interest to to save
Speaker 1: up some money and offer that credit or a settlement
Speaker 1: down the road. But that is something that you can
Speaker 1: educate yourself to do, and to a large degree, you
Speaker 1: can manage your own debt manager program that what we
Speaker 1: what we administer, but that requires contacting every creditor directly,
Speaker 1: and our average client has six or seven or eight creditors,
Speaker 1: contacting each of them directly, getting on their hardship program,
Speaker 1: and then making those payments religiously every month individually, whereas
Speaker 1: on a debt management plan, you just make one payment
Speaker 1: to us and we disperse the payments. So in both cases.
Speaker 1: It's not that you can't do it yourself necessarily, but
Speaker 1: the terms that you get directly to the through the
Speaker 1: creditor or the terms you get through nonprofit credit counseling
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit different. So it's a good idea
Speaker 1: to see what the credit will offer you directly and
Speaker 1: then see what you're able to get through a credit counselor,
Speaker 1: and if it's better, if it's a better rate through us,
Speaker 1: then it could be worth doing it. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: good to hear that there's actual tangible benefits to going
Speaker 1: with you know, a nonprofit like you guys, you know,
Speaker 1: aside from sort of the emotional support and aside from
Speaker 1: the sort of accountability that you would also receive by
Speaker 1: by talking to a counselor and similar thing with the
Speaker 1: similar thing to credit doctors. I'm not here to say
Speaker 1: that every dead settlement company is evil. No, that's not
Speaker 1: that's not the case. There are certainly dead settlement companies
Speaker 1: that have positive reviews and good experiences. The part that
Speaker 1: I would emphasize is that there's education involved, and then
Speaker 1: if the if the person has not already been sent
Speaker 1: to collections by their creditors, that it's best to try
Speaker 1: to avoid that by either working with the creditor directly
Speaker 1: or going through nonprofit credit counseling instead of further escalating
Speaker 1: it by getting involved with the dead settlement company. Now,
Speaker 1: if your finances have changed to the point where you
Speaker 1: just can't make a payment, not even a debt management
Speaker 1: plan payment, then you might need to be considering another strategy,
Speaker 1: whether that's UM saving up for a debt settlement yourself,
Speaker 1: or going to and getting legal advice to see if
Speaker 1: you're a bankruptcy candidate. Awesome, Yeah, that's that's really good
Speaker 1: info there, Thomas. Um. Overall, this has been awesome on
Speaker 1: managing debt. But you kind of hinted at COVID nineteen
Speaker 1: and so we're gonna talk next about this, you know,
Speaker 1: the great lockdown, and how that is affecting our money, Uh,
Speaker 1: specifically how that's affecting our debt. We'll get to that
Speaker 1: right after the break. All right, we're back from the break.
Speaker 1: We're talking about where to turn for debt and budget
Speaker 1: help with Thomas Nitchie. Thomas, let's talk more about the
Speaker 1: major issues that you see facing money management international clients
Speaker 1: right now, people that come to you for non not
Speaker 1: for profit credit counseling. You get obviously a lot of calls,
Speaker 1: a lot of emails, and you're getting more. I'm sure
Speaker 1: right now, how have those calls and emails changed since
Speaker 1: the Great Lockdown has basically broken the economy at least
Speaker 1: for the time being. Sure, So we're seeing a couple
Speaker 1: of different channels, different types of people calling in people
Speaker 1: who have engaged us in the past or who are
Speaker 1: in a debt management program now and who are now
Speaker 1: experiencing the economic impact of coronavirus and are struggling to
Speaker 1: make those payments. So with those folks, were helping them
Speaker 1: understand what their creditors might be now offering over and
Speaker 1: above what they're offering in a debt management program, as
Speaker 1: far as a deferment um or other payment suspension or
Speaker 1: reduction that might help them get through this time on
Speaker 1: a on a temporary basis um. And then another large
Speaker 1: bucket of calls are people who are calling and are
Speaker 1: concerned about keeping up on their mortgage or keeping up
Speaker 1: on their rent, even if they're not necessarily yet financially
Speaker 1: impacted by coronavirus, they are concerned about what that looks
Speaker 1: like if this drags on and they do experience um
Speaker 1: an interruption in their income, and unfortunately, you know, many
Speaker 1: Americans just don't have emergency savings set aside. They don't
Speaker 1: have emergency saving set aside to sort of get them
Speaker 1: through three or six months of a downturn like this. So,
Speaker 1: you know, we have a lot of really concerned people
Speaker 1: reaching out right now, and then also people who are
Speaker 1: already impacted and are struggling to understand the terminology that
Speaker 1: their lenders are using. So forbearance, for example, when a
Speaker 1: lot of consumers hear the word forbearance, they hear forgiveness
Speaker 1: like if they if if IF they lenders says we're
Speaker 1: gonna give you a three month forbearance. That does not
Speaker 1: mean that those payments are simply forgiven, or that they're
Speaker 1: just going to be tacked on the end of the
Speaker 1: loan or whatever. At the end of the forbearance, you
Speaker 1: actually have to solve for those missed payments, So whether
Speaker 1: that's a lump some at the end of the three months,
Speaker 1: or an application for a modification or a repayment plan
Speaker 1: where those missed payments are split up over say, you know,
Speaker 1: a year or two and then added to your existing
Speaker 1: mortgage payment. Those are actually realistically what what forbearance means.
Speaker 1: It absolutely does not mean a forgiven payment. Tom's have
Speaker 1: you seen any like credit card issues changing the way
Speaker 1: that they deal with card holders, you know, based on
Speaker 1: the on the pandemic you have, so absolutely, um, a
Speaker 1: lot you know, a lot of the creditors I feel
Speaker 1: are responding a lot faster than they did during the
Speaker 1: Great Recession. UM. I think they you know, many of
Speaker 1: us learned important lessons during the recession as far as
Speaker 1: how to respond to consumers who are in crisis. And
Speaker 1: so I've been really really um encouraged to see what
Speaker 1: many creditors are doing, not all, but many. The problem though,
Speaker 1: is that there are so as you know, there are
Speaker 1: so many creditors. Um. You know, there's hundreds of creditors nationally,
Speaker 1: and each one is handling this a little bit differently
Speaker 1: and has different policies, different procedures, different way of um
Speaker 1: getting people into these plans might be online, you might
Speaker 1: have to call in, might be an application. You know,
Speaker 1: they might be offering one month of forebearance for now
Speaker 1: or deferment might be three months. So it's really all
Speaker 1: over the board, and it's making it really challenging for
Speaker 1: both counselors here M I and consumers to understand what
Speaker 1: they should be doing where to direct people. Um, these
Speaker 1: processes are slow, sometimes to be spun up, and sometimes
Speaker 1: processes change and we're not advised of that by the creditor,
Speaker 1: and so it is a confusing time for all involved.
Speaker 1: And there's you're seeing a lot of frustration, even more
Speaker 1: frustration now with the stimulus checks and you know, when
Speaker 1: am I going to get my check? And how am
Speaker 1: I going to get my check? And what is it
Speaker 1: going to be based on? And it's a really difficult
Speaker 1: time for consumers right now. We're you know, we're obviously
Speaker 1: doing the best we can to bring some clarity to
Speaker 1: those scenarios as we meet with people. Yes, so for
Speaker 1: people that do have debt and they're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how to get forbearance or deferment, or for someone
Speaker 1: let's say who's got a car note and they're trying
Speaker 1: to figure out, well, what do I do about this
Speaker 1: because I can't pay my car note this month? What
Speaker 1: question should we be asking of a potential creditor when
Speaker 1: we're trying to ask for help right now? Sure, so
Speaker 1: probably we need to back up and talk about if
Speaker 1: you can get a hold of your creditor for right, Like,
Speaker 1: the calls are just astronomical, and we were experiencing people,
Speaker 1: you know, being on hold for hours on end to
Speaker 1: try to get through somebody. So I would say the
Speaker 1: probably the best thing to do at this point is
Speaker 1: to start online and check with the website of your
Speaker 1: various creditors, because that's going to be the easiest, fastest,
Speaker 1: uh and likely most efficient way to get the information
Speaker 1: you're looking for. And there might even be way to
Speaker 1: to apply for that financial hardship aid right there on
Speaker 1: the website. If you don't see it on their website,
Speaker 1: try logging into your account and see if there's anything
Speaker 1: behind the log in firewall. It'll give you more information.
Speaker 1: It'll pop up at the top of the page right right.
Speaker 1: So once you've done that, then at that point you
Speaker 1: might need to start getting on the phone or if
Speaker 1: they're if they have a messaging app or email address
Speaker 1: or something like that, something that's a little less frustrating
Speaker 1: than being on the phone phone for hours on end.
Speaker 1: Trying to take advantage of those routes as well. Nice
Speaker 1: The reason Joel was asking about what questions to ask
Speaker 1: is because he owes me twenty bucks and so he
Speaker 1: wants to know how he can kind of get out
Speaker 1: from from under my thombs. Customer service is terrible, Like
Speaker 1: don't even get ahold of the guy that in order
Speaker 1: to pay the bill off, I am slow to respond.
Speaker 1: Facebook page messaging, Yeah, common public. Leave him a bad
Speaker 1: review that'll get his attention. Tell us something about like
Speaker 1: Project porch Light. So that's a part of m m I,
Speaker 1: And how can that sort of project, how can that
Speaker 1: be potentially helpful for people right now? Yeah? Sure, So
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about Project Porchlight. It's a program that
Speaker 1: was designed by Kate Bolger here at m m I,
Speaker 1: who's UM in our development department, but she's also a
Speaker 1: former counselor and she's personally experience or her family has
Speaker 1: personally experienced UM natural disasters tornadoes here in my area
Speaker 1: actually a Missouri UM and what she noticed was the
Speaker 1: recovery for people who have been impacted by a natural disaster.
Speaker 1: It takes a long time, and there's real difficult challenges
Speaker 1: applying for FEMA aid, applying for insurance, help, figuring out
Speaker 1: how you're going to overcome shortfalls out of pocket expenses,
Speaker 1: credit card debt for things that weren't covered by insurance,
Speaker 1: or that any number of challenges that somebody has when
Speaker 1: they go through a natural disaster. So we created Project
Speaker 1: Porchlight and we got funding UM and we got a
Speaker 1: partnership with Fannie May and we operate Project Porchlight as
Speaker 1: Fannie May's Disaster Response Network. So any UM mortgage holder
Speaker 1: who owns a home that is UH, the investor is
Speaker 1: Fannie May, can receive help through the Disaster Response Network,
Speaker 1: which is a Project Porchlight, and basically it gives them
Speaker 1: resources and counseling coaching to get them back on track,
Speaker 1: get them on a path to full recovery, and hopefully
Speaker 1: expedite the recovery. So what we do is we do
Speaker 1: an assessment to determine where they're at right now, sort
Speaker 1: of similar to a credit counseling session, but more focused
Speaker 1: on the disaster, and that the aid resources, see what
Speaker 1: sort of assistance they need, see if they need help
Speaker 1: with UM appeals with FEMA or with their insurance company,
Speaker 1: and then let them know about resources that they may
Speaker 1: not already be aware of. So when COVID happened, UM
Speaker 1: we looked to Fannie May and to our other funder,
Speaker 1: which is a MetLife Foundation, to pivot project Porchlight to
Speaker 1: people who have been impacted by COVID. Now, obviously there's
Speaker 1: some real challenges here, right because this program was designed
Speaker 1: for regional geological disasters, so you know, hurricanes in Florida,
Speaker 1: tornadoes in the Midwest, fires in California. It really was
Speaker 1: not designed for a pandemic or national scale exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: So that's been our challenge right now, is pivoting to
Speaker 1: COVID and giving people the best possible support we can
Speaker 1: to try to help them understand what their options are
Speaker 1: and get them through this really challenging time. But we
Speaker 1: are really proud of the fact that we developed that
Speaker 1: program um in response to natural disasters and that it's
Speaker 1: now available for people who are impacted by COVID. And
Speaker 1: m m I itself actually was flooded during the Hurricane
Speaker 1: Harvey in in Houston, so we do have some personal
Speaker 1: experience from our own experience and from that of our staff,
Speaker 1: and so you know, again the empathy factor, right, like,
Speaker 1: we've been there, we know we've done this, so we
Speaker 1: definitely encourage people to reach out if they're struggling to
Speaker 1: to get the support they need, or if they have
Speaker 1: feel like they've exhausted UM their resources or um have
Speaker 1: exhausted the help that they're getting from their creditors. Well, Thomas,
Speaker 1: this has been just a great conversation. I've learned a lot.
Speaker 1: I hope you know this has been really helpful for
Speaker 1: our listeners too, especially the ones who are having your
Speaker 1: income issues to have debt issues right now. Where can
Speaker 1: our listeners find out more about Project Porchlight and about
Speaker 1: m m I so that they can, you know, get
Speaker 1: help via those avenues. Yeah, absolutely so. Money Management dot
Speaker 1: org is our main website. If you've got any sort
Speaker 1: of budgeting challenges or experiencing high levels of credit card
Speaker 1: debt and need help with your housing, that's the place
Speaker 1: to start. If you've been specifically impacted by a natural
Speaker 1: disaster in the United States, or if you're experiencing a
Speaker 1: reduction of income or hardships due to COVID, go to
Speaker 1: Porchlight dot org um and that will take you to
Speaker 1: the rights. Very cool. Well, Thomas thinks so much. This
Speaker 1: has been Yeah, I completely agree with Joel, like, I
Speaker 1: have learned so much, and yeah, hopefully we're able to
Speaker 1: get this info out there and help those out there
Speaker 1: who are also in need. But yeah, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today. Absolutely, I'm really grateful for the opportunity.
Speaker 1: Thank you, man, Joel. What a great conversation we just
Speaker 1: had here with Thomas Nitchie of Money Management International. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad that we got to basically pack so much
Speaker 1: information into you know, the short conversation and hopefully our
Speaker 1: listeners are gonna, you know, be better for it. What
Speaker 1: to you stood out? Like? What was your big takeaway? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's hard to come up with just one thing,
Speaker 1: but if I had come a lot of ground, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we did, We really did. I think the biggest thing
Speaker 1: Thomas I had to write this down when I heard
Speaker 1: him saying, and he said, the best way to do
Speaker 1: something is not always the easiest way, and I think
Speaker 1: that showed in a couple of ways in our conversation
Speaker 1: with him. One the easiest way to get out a
Speaker 1: debt is not to sub let every single room in
Speaker 1: your home. He took the hard way, but he did
Speaker 1: that in order to make sure you got out of
Speaker 1: debt in a timely manner. The other thing is when
Speaker 1: you're dealing with creditors, the easiest ways to google debt
Speaker 1: or leaf companies hop on the first one and kind
Speaker 1: of trying to get the ball rolling there. The hard
Speaker 1: way is the longer four years slog of a debt
Speaker 1: management plan through a nonprofit counseling company, after having done
Speaker 1: the due diligence, where you've gotten multiple opinions right right.
Speaker 1: And I think that is just such a good thing
Speaker 1: that life oftentimes boils down to the best way to
Speaker 1: do things is not always the easiest way. That's just
Speaker 1: true for so many things. And it's definitely true of
Speaker 1: our money. It's true of investing over the long haul,
Speaker 1: and it's true of getting out of debt. It's true
Speaker 1: of getting a budget together. It's not always easy, but
Speaker 1: doing those things going about it the hard way is
Speaker 1: going to have just a lasting impact on your finances
Speaker 1: and on yourself as a human too. Yeah, man, I
Speaker 1: you know I feel that That's why credit doctor is
Speaker 1: such a a term that kind of stains out because
Speaker 1: you think, yeah, I just want somebody to show up
Speaker 1: and fix my credit, like fix this best, like fix
Speaker 1: all this that I have done over the past ten
Speaker 1: and twenty years of my life of neglecting my finances.
Speaker 1: I feels like credit therapist, you'd be like, no, it's
Speaker 1: gonna take a much time exactly. But as we know,
Speaker 1: and we we we seen this in medicine over the past,
Speaker 1: you know, several decades, but a large part of overall health,
Speaker 1: whether it be our physical health or our financial health,
Speaker 1: it's more holistic, and it takes doing the right thing,
Speaker 1: the hard thing, day after day. A lot of times,
Speaker 1: there isn't going to be an easy fix. And even
Speaker 1: after you talk with a counseling company, you know, like Thomas's,
Speaker 1: it could be several years, like you said before, you're
Speaker 1: out of the woods. So yeah, I'm totally with you
Speaker 1: for me. My big takeaway, we mentioned how you know
Speaker 1: he said this previously that the hardest step, the hardest
Speaker 1: first step to take is just like contacting a credit
Speaker 1: counseling company like this, because there's a certain amount of
Speaker 1: I think shame sometimes that people associate with having not
Speaker 1: handled their finance as well over the years. Right, And
Speaker 1: this is something you and I we've talked about this before, right,
Speaker 1: but the difference between shame and guilt, right, like we've
Speaker 1: talked about Burnet Brown and how shame is when you
Speaker 1: identify with something. And so if you see yourself as uh,
Speaker 1: someone who's terrible with their money and that's just who
Speaker 1: you are, you're gonna be less likely to take those
Speaker 1: steps because it's hard to change who you are, versus
Speaker 1: if you see yourself as, yeah, I did those things,
Speaker 1: I'm guilty, right, But you can change small actions, you
Speaker 1: can change behaviors. It's hard to change who you are
Speaker 1: as a person if you identify with that. But I
Speaker 1: think it's easier to say, Okay, well this is a
Speaker 1: small behavior that I'm going to change, and over time,
Speaker 1: by taking the right step, like you said, you day
Speaker 1: after day, year after year, you're gonna end up in
Speaker 1: a fantastic place when it comes to your your personal
Speaker 1: finances in and with your credit. Yeah, if you just
Speaker 1: sweep it under the rug, keep moving along, that problem
Speaker 1: doesn't go away, gets worse exactly. And so yeah, taking
Speaker 1: that step, making a phone call, even if it's just
Speaker 1: that step, it can be a huge relief. And you'll
Speaker 1: also you'll find empathy on the other side of line.
Speaker 1: You'll find people like Thomas who have been through something similar,
Speaker 1: similar rough times, who are there to help you through
Speaker 1: your rough times. I love that he's been there himself
Speaker 1: as an individual, but how he mentioned how his company
Speaker 1: has been there as well, like with the floods and Houston.
Speaker 1: It's so valuable to have actually been there when you're
Speaker 1: talking to someone directly and you're kind of hold their
Speaker 1: hand and walk through a situation like that, and it's
Speaker 1: just really encouraging to hear that directly from them. So, Yeah,
Speaker 1: fantastic conversation. And of course we'll make sure that we
Speaker 1: link to Project porch Light as well as and then
Speaker 1: I in our show notes. But before we even gets
Speaker 1: all that, Joel, Um, this beer. This is a fantastic beer.
Speaker 1: This is another one from our buddy Jess over at
Speaker 1: Easy Chair Brewing Garage. The name of this one you
Speaker 1: said was experimental. I p a volume. I didn't get
Speaker 1: the first twelve, Jess. I'm just I'm expecting maybe the
Speaker 1: first twelve where you know, I want you to have those. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he finally got the recipe right on this one. And
Speaker 1: this one has pineapple. This this I PA has pineapple
Speaker 1: in it, Matt, And it was delicious, man, I thought
Speaker 1: it gave it a nice super juicy vibe, had a
Speaker 1: tiny bit of sweetness from the pineapple. Also a tiny
Speaker 1: bit of tartness going on as well. So it's just
Speaker 1: this really interesting I p A A fruit thrown into
Speaker 1: an ipa on occasion. I'm not gonna lie. I like it.
Speaker 1: I like some blood orange or some pineapple every now
Speaker 1: and again in an I p A. And man, I
Speaker 1: feel like just knocked it out of the park with
Speaker 1: this one. This was this was really good. Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: I could not agree more. This was a fantastic one.
Speaker 1: And this is a new England style I p A.
Speaker 1: So as we ported, it had that cloudy kind of
Speaker 1: as he looked to it, and I'm with you. The
Speaker 1: first thing I noticed when I when it took a
Speaker 1: sip was that had a touch of tartness, which I've
Speaker 1: had sour I p A s and you know I
Speaker 1: p s are a little more tart and I really
Speaker 1: dug them. So this was a fantastic one. It definitely
Speaker 1: had that fruity pineapple vibe going on, and because of that,
Speaker 1: it lent itself this sort of tropical vibe. And it
Speaker 1: also reminded me of so Easter wasn't that long ago?
Speaker 1: And uh for Easter egg hunt inside the house because
Speaker 1: it was raining for the girls, we had those those
Speaker 1: little Easter egg jelly beans, like these are the classic
Speaker 1: ones with all the classic flavors, not the not the
Speaker 1: Starburst ones, not the Starbursts ones. Yeah. I don't know
Speaker 1: what the brand was, but just on a super Classics
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I think it was actually, but
Speaker 1: the white jelly bean was pineapple, and it totally like
Speaker 1: it takes me back to sort of that flavor profile
Speaker 1: because things that are flavored pineapple taste a little bit
Speaker 1: different than fresh pineapple obviously, right, but it totally it
Speaker 1: totally reminded me of that. So it kind of had
Speaker 1: a little bit of nostalgia going on because obviously I
Speaker 1: set some of those jelly beans as a proper father
Speaker 1: should when you when you're loading up the eggs, gotta
Speaker 1: get your cut exactly. It's the daddy's cut. But yeah, man,
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this beer. So again, the big things
Speaker 1: to Jess for donating this one to the show. Yeah, Matt,
Speaker 1: I think the best description I can give is it
Speaker 1: tasted like a Thomas Nichi vacation to the Bahamas? Is
Speaker 1: that where you said? Is that where that where they
Speaker 1: guess where they go at? Okay, nice super tropical down there.
Speaker 1: I thought you're gonna mention this is what it tastes
Speaker 1: like in Belize, like, well, I'm not sure if that's
Speaker 1: what you want. Did they grow pineapples and belice? I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe they do, Maybe they do. I know
Speaker 1: they do in Hawaii of course. Yeah, But all right, Matt,
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it for this episode. For folks at
Speaker 1: one are shown than they want to find out more
Speaker 1: about not for profit credit counseling, just go to our
Speaker 1: website how to money dot com. And maybe you're listening
Speaker 1: to this episode right and you found it very helpful.
Speaker 1: But you've also maybe you thought of somebody else, you
Speaker 1: you know, somebody else that might be in some serious
Speaker 1: debts trouble all my friends Susie she is not good
Speaker 1: with money, she needs real help, or my buddy Sean.
Speaker 1: You know. Either way, if you have that person in mind,
Speaker 1: we would love if you shared this episode with somebody
Speaker 1: or just the show in general. You don't have to
Speaker 1: necessarily say, hey, go listen to this one episode, dummy.
Speaker 1: You get disrec them in our show to somebody that
Speaker 1: might be looking to do smarter things with their money.
Speaker 1: We would greatly appreciate that word of mouth is a
Speaker 1: fantastic way to help us screw the show and to
Speaker 1: let that other person know that you care about them. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: An email link to one of our podcasts is definitely
Speaker 1: a way to show that you care. All Right, Matt,
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it for this episode. Until next time.
Speaker 1: Best Friends out, Best Friends out. Hey. You know, one
Speaker 1: thing I was going to mention about my experience before
Speaker 1: I came to m I or a clear point, um,
Speaker 1: is that when I worked for the global financial services
Speaker 1: that I used to work for, two of my really
Speaker 1: two of my primary duties were one helping people wire
Speaker 1: money into casinos off of their credit cards and to
Speaker 1: helping people understand that they had been scammed by lottery
Speaker 1: like Nigerian priends scams or lottery scam ms or whatever.
Speaker 1: Um those were like two of my primary job descriptions.
Speaker 1: So it's been a real one eighty for me to
Speaker 1: come to an organization that is helping people get out
Speaker 1: of debt and into a better financial space. Um. So
Speaker 1: I thought, that's another sort of little irony in my
Speaker 1: story