WEBVTT - Margaret Marshall: Bathrooms Are Focus of Segregation (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie Palotin. That's a Bloomberg Business Flash. You're listening to

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<v Speaker 1>Taking stock with Kathleen Hayes and Pim Fox on Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>The first woman to serve as Chief Justice of the

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<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court of Massachusetts, the first Justice of the United

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<v Speaker 1>States to issue an opinion legalizing same sex marriage, and

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<v Speaker 1>tonight she will be one of the three outstanding a

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<v Speaker 1>Greater Boston leaders inducted into the Academy of Distinguished Bostonians

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<v Speaker 1>at the Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce's annual dinner. We're

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<v Speaker 1>continuing our very special live broadcast here Katheen Hayes and

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<v Speaker 1>Pim Fox, and we're very pleased now to welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the show, Chief Justice Margaret H. Marshall. Thank you, Kathleen,

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<v Speaker 1>and thank you Pim. So you are a South African native,

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<v Speaker 1>you first made your mark as an anti apartheid activist.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us a bit about that and how you got

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<v Speaker 1>from South Africa to Boston. I grew up in a small,

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<v Speaker 1>tiny village in will South Africa, and my parents were

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<v Speaker 1>not political activists, um and I was surrounded by a

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<v Speaker 1>partyit and it's amazing how one doesn't see often what

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<v Speaker 1>is happening right in front of your eyes unless it

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<v Speaker 1>somehow pointed out to you. At that time, racism was pervasive.

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<v Speaker 1>There were no black students allowed in my school, or

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<v Speaker 1>to own property or even in the church that I

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<v Speaker 1>went to. Black South Africans couldn't travel in their own country,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course they couldn't vote. And then came the

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<v Speaker 1>greatest change in my life. I received a scholarship to

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<v Speaker 1>come as a high school exchange student to the United

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<v Speaker 1>States in the early nineteen sixties. President John F. Kennedy

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<v Speaker 1>was president. That certainly ages me, um, but it was

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<v Speaker 1>a wonderful time, and it was here that I fell

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<v Speaker 1>in love with the principles that have guided this great

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<v Speaker 1>nation since its founding. Equal justice under law for all,

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<v Speaker 1>equal opportunity. I was exhilarated. I went back Kathleen to

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<v Speaker 1>South Africa. I finished my college studies there, but I

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<v Speaker 1>had had my eyes opened in the United States, and

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<v Speaker 1>I became very active in opposing a partyit By then,

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<v Speaker 1>Nelson Mandela and all of his colleagues have been sentenced

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<v Speaker 1>to life in prison. And again, I came from a

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<v Speaker 1>non political family. UM. My father was a corporate executive

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<v Speaker 1>of my mother was a stay at home mom. I

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<v Speaker 1>had a very comfortable life that I just couldn't tolerate

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<v Speaker 1>what I saw going on around me any longer. And

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<v Speaker 1>when it became unsafe for me to continue to be

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<v Speaker 1>in South Africa, I was fortunate enough to be given

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<v Speaker 1>a scholarship to come and study here in Boston at Harvard.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's the sort of capsule story of how I

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<v Speaker 1>got here. Take us back just for a second to

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<v Speaker 1>the year two thousand and three and decision, and that

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<v Speaker 1>will help bring us to the issues related to current

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<v Speaker 1>events surrounding North Carolina. Okay, tell us about that decision

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and three. In two thousand and free Um,

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<v Speaker 1>several same sex couples they were not being married, had

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<v Speaker 1>filed a lawsuit in the Trial court in Massachusetts. A

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<v Speaker 1>lawsuit had actually been filed seven years, several years before,

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<v Speaker 1>asking for the court to decide under the Massachusetts Constitution

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<v Speaker 1>that to deny them the protection and benefits of marriage

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<v Speaker 1>with the violation of our equality provision. The Massachusetts Constitution,

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<v Speaker 1>which is older than the United States Constitution, begins with

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<v Speaker 1>the words all people are born free and equal, and

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<v Speaker 1>in essence the plaintiffs will look into though that provision,

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<v Speaker 1>in particular to say, um that they should have the

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<v Speaker 1>right to be married to each other. It was the

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<v Speaker 1>first time, not the first time that a court had

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<v Speaker 1>considered the question. Vermont had faced the same question just

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<v Speaker 1>a few years earlier, and in fact, a decade earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>the Hawaii Supreme Court had ruled on a similar issue,

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<v Speaker 1>but UM. In Hawaii, the the interim judgment of the

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<v Speaker 1>court had been overturned by the legislature. And in Vermont,

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<v Speaker 1>UM the Vermont legislature and governor had endorsed civil unions

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<v Speaker 1>and UM that had put an end to that court case.

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<v Speaker 1>So this was the first time that there was, as

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<v Speaker 1>you know, a sort of the requests that the court decides,

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<v Speaker 1>specifically about marriage for same sex couples. UM and Mike

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<v Speaker 1>Carls and I on the Supreme Judicial Court, in a

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<v Speaker 1>split decision fortively, the seven justices who sit on boncoll

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<v Speaker 1>at the time decided that the Massachusetts Constitution did, in fact,

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<v Speaker 1>um enable same sex couples to be married. Well, of

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<v Speaker 1>course that certainly open the door. You can you you

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<v Speaker 1>paved the way. You were a trailblazer with that. When

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<v Speaker 1>you look at North Carolina. The latest news is the

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<v Speaker 1>US Justice Department is suing North Carolina over its law

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<v Speaker 1>regulat in the bathroom choices of transgender people. They call

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<v Speaker 1>the violation of the Federal Civil Rights Act. They're seeking injunction,

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<v Speaker 1>where if you were the justice weighing in on that

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<v Speaker 1>or advising either side. How would you be breaking down

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<v Speaker 1>the issues here, Kathleen, You know it's difficult. UM. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know how to decide because you have to read

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<v Speaker 1>all the beliefs. But I would say this, there was

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<v Speaker 1>some um suggestion along the way that gender the not

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<v Speaker 1>include sexual orientation and all transgender people. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>has largely been put to rest by the United States

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<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court Justice Kennedy in his decisions involving same sex couples.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think any reasonable argument can be made anymore

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<v Speaker 1>that somehow the Equal Protection claus and or Title seven,

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<v Speaker 1>whichever way they're doing it, that's the non discriminate federal

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<v Speaker 1>non discrimination provision. It does not cover transgender people. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think what I find strange here is and Attorney

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<v Speaker 1>General United States Attorney General Lebretta Lynch made this point yesterday,

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<v Speaker 1>but I had made it before, which is it is

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<v Speaker 1>very reminiscent of the public accommodation sites that were fought

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<v Speaker 1>when they're when various places excluded Black Americans from going

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<v Speaker 1>into motels, or from swimming and swimming pools, or from

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<v Speaker 1>going into toilets. UM. I often wonder, and it perplexes

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<v Speaker 1>me what it is in our nation that often makes

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<v Speaker 1>toilets and access to toilets where one is fighting about,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, basic equality rights. It seems to me that

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<v Speaker 1>um raally, I don't I don't know of any any

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<v Speaker 1>study anywhere with anybody encountering difficulties in using public bathrooms

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<v Speaker 1>or bathrooms and in places of employment. Don't forget the

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<v Speaker 1>places of employment as well. And yet we've seen focused

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<v Speaker 1>on that when we are somehow trying to segregate people

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<v Speaker 1>just because of who they are, uh, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>that is so conquerry to our long tradition in the

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<v Speaker 1>United States. We we do it slowly. I mean, to

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<v Speaker 1>give full meaning to equal justice under law for all

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<v Speaker 1>has taken us, you know, a couple of centuries, but

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<v Speaker 1>it is clearly we've always moved in one direction. Ultimately,

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<v Speaker 1>we as a society, we ultimately do not tolerate treating

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<v Speaker 1>anybody because of their national origin, their Japanese heritage in

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<v Speaker 1>the World War two, whatever it is, differently in asking

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<v Speaker 1>them to be treated differently. And I think to me,

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<v Speaker 1>when I listened to the discussions, and I haven't reviewed

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<v Speaker 1>obviously either of the complaints, but it seems to me

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<v Speaker 1>that we are HARKing back to a past that we

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<v Speaker 1>often wish we had put behind us rather than moving forward.

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<v Speaker 1>Just to learn a little bit more about your thinking,

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<v Speaker 1>Chief Justice. Um the apparent deadlock in Washington over President

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<v Speaker 1>Obama's nomination to fill the vacancy on the Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 1>Merck Garland. Yes, what do you make of that process

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<v Speaker 1>or or a non process? And I'm only gonna give

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<v Speaker 1>you about the seconds. It saddens me. Having a vibrant

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<v Speaker 1>judicially is the foundation of what has, among other things,

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<v Speaker 1>made ours a great, great nation. Uh, And I think

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<v Speaker 1>it does not serve any purpose. And by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly businesses and entities who are trying to follow the

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<v Speaker 1>law in the United States, to have a Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>with only eight justices and they may not be able

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<v Speaker 1>to agree on fundamental questions. And so I think that

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't reflect well. The Senate should the Senate Judiciary

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<v Speaker 1>Committee should at least move forward in my judgment, and

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<v Speaker 1>the matter brought to the Senate floor, so that we

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<v Speaker 1>can have all free branches of government functioning well, which

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<v Speaker 1>is really what our democracy is all about. Well, thank

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<v Speaker 1>you very much for sharing your thoughts with us. Chief

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Margaret H. Martial former Chief Justice of Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>of Massachusetts now Senior Council Chot Hall and Stewart. We

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<v Speaker 1>are broadcasting live from the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center

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<v Speaker 1>before tonight's Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce two sixteen Annual

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<v Speaker 1>Meeting