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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, welcome to Drilled.

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Speaker 2: I'm Amy Westervelt, and this is a new segment we're

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Speaker 2: doing hopefully every week in between narrative seasons called The Spill.

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Speaker 2: Aline and Nina, introduce yourselves.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Nina Lakhani.

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Speaker 4: I am the Global Climate Justice Reporter for Drilled and

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Speaker 4: now The Spill.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Aline Brown.

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Speaker 5: I'm a Senior Editor at Drilled and really excited to

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Speaker 5: be talking to The Spill today.

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Speaker 4: Yay!

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Speaker 2: Awesome. So yeah, we'll be talking amongst ourselves about current news,

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Speaker 2: things that are happening in media, and then also using

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Speaker 2: this As a place to interview other reporters, writers, experts,

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Speaker 2: all the stuff that has been a bit of a

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Speaker 2: hodgepodge of the bonus episodes of Drilled, now organized into

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Speaker 2: weekly episodes in your feed. Okay, so let's talk about

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Speaker 2: some of the current climate news. There's been a lot

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Speaker 2: of stuff happening, not necessarily a lot of news covering it.

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Speaker 2: What are the things that you guys are paying attention

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Speaker 2: to on the climate beat right now? What's happening all

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Speaker 2: around us at the moment?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think we're, you know, this year, like

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Speaker 4: every year for the last few years has shown us

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Speaker 4: that we are now full force in climate breakdown.

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Speaker 3: You know, this isn't something that's going to happen. It's

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Speaker 3: happening now.

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Speaker 4: And it's happening at a really terrifying speed at a scale,

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Speaker 4: which even, you know, the worst case scenario models were

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Speaker 4: not forecasting to be happening so quickly, you know, so

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Speaker 4: this catastrophic breaking of the glacier in the Himalayas, you know,

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Speaker 4: which caused this unbelievable, I mean, like terrifying floods at

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Speaker 4: the Nepal, Tibet border confirmed so far 1200 dead with

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Speaker 4: 1000s more still missing. And I think this piece of

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Speaker 4: this glacier broke off and the force at which it

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Speaker 4: landed recorded at more than five on the Richter scale,

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Speaker 4: on the earthquake Richter scale, you know. And, you know,

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Speaker 4: this area of the Himalayas is really poorly studied, partly

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Speaker 4: because it's hard to reach, but partly because, you know,

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Speaker 4: the whole world hasn't taken responsibility of monitoring what's happening

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Speaker 4: at all of these glaciers, right? But, you know, when

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Speaker 4: I've been reading some of the coverage like this last

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Speaker 4: week or so, you know, I mean, 75% of the

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Speaker 4: glaciers in the Himalaya region could all be gone by

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Speaker 4: the end of this century. And we're already seeing like

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Speaker 4: far more glacier lakes, the lakes are bigger, they're deeper,

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Speaker 4: you know, and all of this means what like much

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Speaker 4: more catastrophic flooding, sea level rise, all the things that

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Speaker 4: we're seeing in communities around the world, you know, from

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Speaker 4: Mexico to India and Bangladesh to Australia. And so I

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Speaker 4: think just The images of what's happened at the Nepal-Turret

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Speaker 4: border have been like horrifying, you know.

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Speaker 3: It's so scary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Terrifying.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And, you know, and like at the same time, you know,

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Speaker 4: we're seeing record breaking profits from the fossil fuel companies.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: And I think that we absolutely can't forget that, you know,

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Speaker 4: that there is a clear line of responsibility here.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: They're raking in billions of dollars right now. we've got

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Speaker 4: these catastrophic floods.

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Speaker 2: They're negotiating like how to drill more in the Arctic

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Speaker 2: while we have these catastrophic floods.

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Speaker 5: Well, And, you know, the war in Iran is directly

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Speaker 5: contributing to those profits. You know, we're seeing the affordability

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Speaker 5: of gas and daily essentials skyrocket while the oil and

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Speaker 5: gas industry is seeing, again, record profits directly tied to

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Speaker 5: the same war that is changing everyday people's ability to live. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: The Guardian, my former employer, did a really good analysis recently.

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Speaker 4: And in the first three months after the illegal sort

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Speaker 4: of invasion of Iran, eight of the biggest oil companies

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Speaker 4: amassed profits of more than $ 90 billion.

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Speaker 3: In three months, in three months, right?

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Speaker 4: So as, you know, fuel prices rose spectacularly for like everybody,

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Speaker 4: more than $ 90 billion in just the first three months

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Speaker 4: after the, you know, the Iran invasion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Right. And that was double what they brought in the

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Speaker 5: year before, you know, so you can see that direct

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Speaker 5: relationship and the way that profits are just going up. And,

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Speaker 5: you know, this isn't something new, but I think it's

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Speaker 5: something that's just getting so much less focus in the

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Speaker 5: media and... you know, in conversations more broadly. But, you know,

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Speaker 5: these catastrophes that we're talking about, we're talking about some

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Speaker 5: of the largest scale ones like in Nepal, but like

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Speaker 5: no matter where you live, you're being impacted directly by

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Speaker 5: the actions of the fossil fuel industry. You know, there's

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Speaker 5: the question of affordability, but also the You know, I

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Speaker 5: was visiting family in Minneapolis this summer. And right as

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Speaker 5: I was there, the Boundary Waters, this wilderness area in

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Speaker 5: northern Minnesota was on fire. You know, there were these

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Speaker 5: really catastrophic fires taking place. That's an area that's like

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Speaker 5: beloved by so many people in the region. People go

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Speaker 5: canoe there. And it's like a water area. It's a

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Speaker 5: bunch of like interconnected waterways. And that was.

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Speaker 5: In flames, because of a combination of, you know, past extractivism,

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Speaker 5: loggers going in and totally changing the ecosystem there and

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Speaker 5: kind of displacing indigenous people who had their own fire-based

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Speaker 5: practices and ways of managing the land.

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Speaker 1: And also, you know, the burning of fossil fuels. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: One of our producers, Ray Pang, who did the slapped season,

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Speaker 2: goes and does a canoe trip on the Boundary Waters

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Speaker 2: every year and couldn't go this year because of the fire.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, oh, I feel like everyone I've

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Speaker 2: spoken to this past few months has had like some

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Speaker 2: kind of personal life impact related to climate. But like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel like there's been this You

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Speaker 2: guys have both covered climate for a long time, as

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Speaker 2: have I. I feel like there's been this assumption for

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Speaker 2: a really long time that as that happens, that magically

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Speaker 2: the political will to do something about it will appear.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, we're seeing a total disconnect on that front.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's never been more present. And the fossil

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Speaker 2: fuel industry and the politicians in its pocket have never

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Speaker 2: been working harder to stop climate.

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Speaker 1: Anyone from acting on it. It's a weird moment.

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Speaker 4: On a personal note, I was at home, you know,

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Speaker 4: for all of July and August, you know.

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Speaker 3: London, England, famously drizzly gray skies.

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Speaker 2: Famously not hot, very steamy this summer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, yeah, the UK had five heat waves

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Speaker 4: this year, like over 35 degrees Celsius.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit.

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Speaker 2: It's like around 95 to 100. 95, 99, I think

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Speaker 2: it got to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, five heat waves.

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Speaker 4: And For the whole of July and the first three

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Speaker 4: weeks of August, it did not rain once across Wales

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Speaker 4: and in most of England. I mean, so when the

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Speaker 4: solar eclipse hit London, I went to a park in

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Speaker 4: North London to watch it with my niece. And it

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Speaker 4: was 35 degrees at 6pm. But all the leaves of

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Speaker 4: the park have fallen. They're all yellow. All of the

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Speaker 4: leaves are down. And under your foot, it felt like autumn, right?

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Speaker 4: Because of the crackling of the leaves. And the grass

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Speaker 4: is all just like completely dead, you know.

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Speaker 3: And yet it was like you're in the middle of

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Speaker 3: the summer.

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Speaker 4: It was like, it's really quite dystopian. And on your point, Amy,

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Speaker 4: I think that climate catastrophe, the breakdown is now happening

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Speaker 4: so fast and everywhere. that people have very quickly, it's

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Speaker 4: become normalized, you know, it just become, you know, normalized. So,

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Speaker 4: you know, yes, you have, you know, you have decent

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Speaker 4: media coverage when these catastrophic floods happen, like this glacier

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Speaker 4: breaks off.

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Speaker 3: In the Himalayas. But every day these things are happening.

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Speaker 4: People are dying from wildfires, from drought, you know, and

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Speaker 4: it's just become normalized really, really quickly. And I think

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Speaker 4: actually like heat deaths is a really good one because

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Speaker 4: I think with floods and fires, it's very visual, right?

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Speaker 4: You have the cameras there and like you can really

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Speaker 4: see it. But, you know, drought and heat and the

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Speaker 4: food insecurity that causes and the deaths it causes are,

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Speaker 4: they sort of just happen, right? They're hard to photograph.

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Speaker 4: They're hard to visualize, you know. But we know in

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Speaker 4: Europe this year, in just, you know, Europe counts excess deaths.

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Speaker 4: So they look at, say, over the last 20 years,

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Speaker 4: how many people have died in a particular week, right,

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Speaker 4: on average. And then when there's a heat wave, they

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Speaker 4: look at how many people have died. And they calculate

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Speaker 4: them to be excess deaths related to the heat. So

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Speaker 4: these aren't deaths that, you know, a tiny number will

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Speaker 4: be things from like heat stroke, for example. But the

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Speaker 4: vast majority will be from, you know, an exacerbation of

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Speaker 4: existing conditions, whether that be a heart condition or asthma

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Speaker 4: or diabetes. And in Europe this year, just in May,

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Speaker 4: June and July, in half of Europe, so this is

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Speaker 4: not even counting like the other half, 35,000 excess deaths

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Speaker 4: were reported from heat just in June and July, the May,

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Speaker 4: June and July. And August was even hotter. But the

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Speaker 4: thing is, this has happened like two or three times

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Speaker 4: over the last five or six years, you know, and

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Speaker 4: like the first time was meant to be the game changer.

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Speaker 4: This is going to wake up everyone. It's going to

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Speaker 4: be political action. But here we are again, you know,

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Speaker 4: and it's sort of, yeah, and it's just that we're

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Speaker 4: accepting the fact that tens of thousands of people died

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Speaker 4: are dying before they needed to have died, right? Because

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Speaker 4: every heat death is a preventable death. Nobody needs to

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Speaker 4: die of heat. You know, public health experts will tell

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Speaker 4: you that every single one is preventable. And yeah, but

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Speaker 4: we seem to have just accepted that as, okay, well,

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Speaker 4: that's what's going to happen now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I think that's a good segue into talking about

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Speaker 5: one of the, we wanted to talk a bit about

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Speaker 5: how media is covering this moment. And NPR put out

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Speaker 5: a big piece recently looking at the way heat deaths

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Speaker 5: are undercounted in the U.S.

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Speaker 1: So the CDC has.

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Speaker 5: Tracked, I think, an average of around 1,700 heat deaths

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Speaker 5: annually in NPR, partnering with Boston University, looked more closely

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Speaker 5: at excess deaths and found up to 9,000 deaths annually

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Speaker 5: in the U.S.

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Speaker 1: That could be attributed to heat.

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Speaker 5: So Nina, to your point, yeah, this is just being

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Speaker 5: vastly undercounted. I know you've done a ton of reporting

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Speaker 5: on this issue specifically.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, when I was working for The Guardian

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Speaker 4: in the U.S., I spent three or four consecutive summers

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Speaker 4: in Arizona specifically reporting on extreme heat in Maricopa County,

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Speaker 4: where Phoenix, which is the US's fifth largest city and

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Speaker 4: its hottest big city, as well as some of the

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Speaker 4: surrounding counties, you know. And actually, Maricopa County is by far,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's the gold standard when it comes to

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Speaker 4: in the US. And because in the US, they don't

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Speaker 4: count excess deaths, right? And they never have.

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Speaker 3: And so you've had.

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Speaker 4: This like, unbelievably sort of underreporting of excess deaths. You know,

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Speaker 4: for the years I was working there, sometimes the deaths

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Speaker 4: that were counted in Maricopa County would be half of

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Speaker 4: what the CDC was reporting was happening across the country,

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Speaker 4: which obviously isn't true, right?

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Speaker 1: It's just that they're counting it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're counting it. But they count them in.

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Speaker 4: And I think they don't do the excess deaths in

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Speaker 4: part because of the way the health system is so.

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Speaker 1: Disjointed, right?

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Speaker 3: You know, like, you know, there is no public health system.

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Speaker 4: So having that access to that data and data be

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Speaker 4: collected in the same way is much more difficult.

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Speaker 3: But I honestly also think there's just been a lack

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Speaker 3: of will, right?

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Speaker 4: I mean, there's a lot of clever scientists and public

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Speaker 4: health officials in the US, right?

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's possible, right? It's definitely possible. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And even in Maricopa County, which I like I say,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's a gold standard, they have trained their

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Speaker 4: forensic team, you know, to look for signs of possible

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Speaker 4: heat contribution to a death and they do and they

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Speaker 4: do investigations to the extent that in possible heat deaths,

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Speaker 4: investigators will go to a person's house and see, and

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Speaker 4: they know on the autopsy form, did the person have

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Speaker 4: a cooling system, air conditioner?

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Speaker 3: Yes or no? Was it turned on? Yes or no?

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Speaker 3: They will ask, why not? You know, like, was it

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Speaker 3: working or was it not working?

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Speaker 4: Because one of the things I found is, you know,

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Speaker 4: even when people had air conditioners, Sometimes they wouldn't have

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Speaker 4: the money to run them or they didn't have the

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Speaker 4: money to fix them if they were broken. But even

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Speaker 4: in Maricopa County, I mean, last year I did an

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Speaker 4: investigation looking at hundreds and hundreds of autopsy reports from

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Speaker 4: the previous two years. And, you know, there were a

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Speaker 4: whole number of deaths there. that were investigated as potential

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Speaker 4: heat deaths, but then were not included. They were then

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Speaker 4: included either as a death by substance misuse or a

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Speaker 4: death of an unhoused person.

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Speaker 3: And it made no sense.

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Speaker 4: But these were people that, you know, heat had clearly

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Speaker 4: contributed and there were other people with similar cases that

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Speaker 4: had made the numbers. So there was even an undercount

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Speaker 4: going on in Maricopa County, right? Yeah. And so, I mean,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's great that NPR and BU have teamed up.

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Speaker 4: My instinct would be being from Europe and seeing how they,

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Speaker 4: you know, it seems improbable, but a country of 320 million,

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Speaker 4: which has you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Which has the worst health system in like the, you know,

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Speaker 4: the developed world would have less heat deaths.

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Speaker 3: Than the UK. That seems improbable.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: So, but at least it's a start.

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Speaker 1: At least it's a start.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to just.

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Speaker 2: Also mentioned that Venezuela is back in the news. Or

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Speaker 2: should I say the U.S. fucking Venezuela over is back

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Speaker 2: in the news.

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Speaker 4: Unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: It's unreal.

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Speaker 2: I think I have a theory on this that like

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Speaker 2: a lot of it. Well, we know a lot of

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Speaker 2: it is Trump trying to to scramble to bring oil

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Speaker 2: prices down and as his invasion of Iran is driving

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Speaker 2: them up. He's like, oh, don't worry about it. We're

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Speaker 2: going to solve the crisis with Venezuelan oil over here,

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Speaker 2: which A, is not how that works. This idea that

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Speaker 2: somehow these fields are going to produce more than they

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Speaker 2: ever have and that it's all going to be fine

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Speaker 2: and it's an easy plug-and-play operation is just not how

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Speaker 2: those things work. But also... There's all kinds of nonsense

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Speaker 2: going on with how he's approaching these oil fields and

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Speaker 2: who's getting what oil and how it's moving around the

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Speaker 2: world in general.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: What have you guys been seeing on that front?

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Speaker 5: I mean, to your point, this has nothing to do

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Speaker 5: with affordability. Like these oil fields, if they end up

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Speaker 5: producing more than they already are, it will take years.

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Speaker 1: U.S.

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Speaker 5: Refineries that process that kind of oil are already backed up. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Also, you know, this is.

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Speaker 5: This is such like it's such a like retro tactic

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Speaker 5: to just step in. I mean, I guess it's never

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Speaker 5: stopped to some degree, but to just step in and

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Speaker 5: and take oil.

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Speaker 1: That's what's happening. The U.S.

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Speaker 5: Government has overthrown. a government and stepped in and just

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Speaker 5: blatantly taken the oil. At the same time, you know,

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Speaker 5: the company that the U.S. is working with is run

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Speaker 5: by a guy who has an arrest warrant out in Switzerland.

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Speaker 5: You know, he's been investigated in the U.S. for money laundering,

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Speaker 5: but he's friends with the Trump administration. So, you know,

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Speaker 5: blatant corruption is at the core of all of this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, let's not forget

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Speaker 4: that the illegal operation in Venezuela to abduct the sitting

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Speaker 4: president happened in January, right? So way before the illegal

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Speaker 4: invasion of the Iran war, right? And so it was

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Speaker 4: always about getting access to the oil and it was

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Speaker 4: always a big grift, right? And like you say, Aline, this,

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Speaker 4: you know, this is to me, I would describe it

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Speaker 4: as a smash and grab imperial invasion, right?

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Speaker 5: Totally.

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Speaker 2: Very big, like US and Latin America in the 50s vibes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, so, you know, like

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Speaker 4: you're saying, the Pentagon has done a deal with with

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Speaker 4: a Venezuelan national who has alleged, you know, money laundering

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Speaker 4: and a huge bribery scandal and with a company that

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Speaker 4: is registered in Barbados.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think when you.

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Speaker 4: Say those words out loud, you're like, hang on, did

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Speaker 4: I actually say that, right? You know, I mean, and,

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Speaker 4: you know, when the invasion happened in January, you know,

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Speaker 4: I mean, at Drilled, we did quite a lot of reporting.

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Speaker 1: On this, right?

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Speaker 4: So that was an, it was an illegal invasion under

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Speaker 4: law every sense of the word, like all international law

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Speaker 4: and the private corporations that are, you know, like rubbing

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Speaker 4: their hands in glee and sort of hearing the cash

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Speaker 4: register go are potentially breaking the law, right? To get

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Speaker 4: involved in a deal that has, you know, that is illegal, right?

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Speaker 3: And from its.

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Speaker 4: Roots could potentially land these corporations and their executives up

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Speaker 4: in court one day, right? And I know that the

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Speaker 4: Trump and And the Israeli government are busy trying to

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Speaker 4: dismantle international justice system. But these laws still exist. They

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Speaker 4: are still the law and they are breaking them, right?

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Speaker 4: You know, and I mean, I think one good example

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Speaker 4: is just to connect, I guess, some of what we're

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Speaker 4: talking about, you know, is that there are three massive

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Speaker 4: oil commodity traders globally. And one of them, Vitol, is

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Speaker 4: one of two traders that has been doing this sort

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Speaker 4: of backroom deal with Trump to get access to this.

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Speaker 3: Venezuelan oil company.

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Speaker 4: And it's also one of two commodity traders that a

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Speaker 4: new report published in the beginning of September by Oil

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Speaker 4: Change International and SOMO, which is a Dutch organization investigating

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Speaker 4: multinational corporations, have found was one of two traders responsible

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Speaker 4: for selling 11% of the crude oil that Israel has

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Speaker 4: bought since the start of the genocide. You know, so

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Speaker 4: a company involved in trade to enable a state that

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Speaker 4: has been found to be breaking international law be committing

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Speaker 4: war crimes and has been accused of genocide, you know,

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Speaker 4: is not OK.

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Speaker 3: It is not legal for them to be doing that.

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Speaker 4: And just because the Trump administration says it is fine

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Speaker 4: doesn't make it legal.

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Speaker 3: And it's not.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Kind of coming back to the press coverage side of things, too.

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Speaker 2: There's a thing going on that happens every time there's discussion,

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Speaker 2: I think, in the media around price per barrel and

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Speaker 2: then price at the pump and all of this stuff

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Speaker 2: that the oil companies do a really good job of

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Speaker 2: holding their hands up and saying like, it's not us

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Speaker 2: that's driving the price of like, we don't have control

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Speaker 2: over the.

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Speaker 1: Price at the pump. Right.

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Speaker 2: But like, Hey, They have a lot of control over

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Speaker 2: foreign policy, domestic policy, you know, subsidies, all those things.

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Speaker 2: But the other thing that's happening right now is like

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Speaker 2: Trump for a moment there. I don't know if you

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Speaker 2: guys caught this a couple of weeks ago. Like he

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Speaker 2: was complaining about the oil companies having record profits and

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Speaker 2: like the price at the pump and whatever, as though...

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Speaker 2: Like he hasn't enabled all of that and they aren't

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Speaker 2: his largest donors. And now he's turned it to focusing

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Speaker 2: on the refining companies. And no one is pushing back

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Speaker 2: on that framing and saying like, well, most of the

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Speaker 2: refining companies are subsidiaries of the oil majors. These are

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Speaker 2: not like separate companies. I mean, some of them are

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Speaker 2: like there's a few, but for the most part, they are.

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Speaker 1: In business together.

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Speaker 2: Just yesterday, I saw multiple different headlines for large mainstream

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Speaker 2: media organizations repeating this. Oh, Trump, you know, he had

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Speaker 2: a meeting with the refiners. So it's like Trump to

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Speaker 2: meet with refining executives over the price gouging and this

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Speaker 2: and that, the other, as though this is like some

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Speaker 2: different industry than the one that has, you know, propped

396
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Speaker 2: him up and that he has like returned the favor too.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. As if his presidency is not a huge win

398
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Speaker 5: for the fossil fuel industry.

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Speaker 1: That's wild. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, his presidency is the fossil fuel industry.

401
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Speaker 1: They're the same thing.

402
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Speaker 3: They're the same thing.

403
00:20:33,962 --> 00:20:37,052
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, yeah.

404
00:20:37,811 --> 00:20:40,032
Speaker 4: I mean, and you know, this is, I think one

405
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Speaker 4: of the most depressing things to watch and this is,

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Speaker 4: you know, when, you know, We have got so many

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Speaker 4: colleagues doing brilliant, brilliant work, you know, in all sorts

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Speaker 4: of different platforms, you know. But for me, one of

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Speaker 4: the most depressing things to watch in this Trump term

410
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Speaker 4: has been to see, you know, journalists that have done

411
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Speaker 4: great work over the years become a journalist that Trump

412
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Speaker 4: can pick up the phone and say, hey, I'm doing

413
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Speaker 4: this and I'm going to do this in Iran. And

414
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Speaker 4: I've told Netanyahu that he's got to do this and

415
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Speaker 4: they just print it. They just print the propaganda like

416
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Speaker 4: verbatim and without any scrutiny at all. And, you know,

417
00:21:17,542 --> 00:21:21,622
Speaker 4: good journalists, good good sort of media outlets and you

418
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Speaker 4: just think what is going on you know and on

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Speaker 4: top of that you have all these like extreme right

420
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Speaker 4: sort of you know platforms as well but just he

421
00:21:29,912 --> 00:21:32,262
Speaker 4: has now got this whole group of journalists that he

422
00:21:32,302 --> 00:21:34,061
Speaker 4: can bring up at the drop of a hat and

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00:21:34,081 --> 00:21:37,082
Speaker 4: they print or you know broadcast whatever he says is

424
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Speaker 4: like really, really depressing, you know?

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, and like none of this is disconnected from

426
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Speaker 5: what feels like the collapse of the media industry as

427
00:21:47,371 --> 00:21:50,571
Speaker 5: it has existed, as problematic as it always has been.

428
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Speaker 5: You know, we've been seeing wave after wave of mass

429
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Speaker 5: layoffs for years and that, you know, fundamentally changes the

430
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Speaker 5: way that these wars, the industry and the climate crisis

431
00:22:02,992 --> 00:22:06,552
Speaker 5: is going to be covered. You know, multiple mainstream media

432
00:22:06,611 --> 00:22:12,522
Speaker 5: outlets have cut their climate deaths. Washington Post, Reuters, NPR, CBS,

433
00:22:12,841 --> 00:22:15,221
Speaker 5: you know, at the same time as these again, these

434
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Speaker 5: newsrooms are shrinking more broadly, meaning that no one really

435
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Speaker 5: like has capacity to cover climate crisis the way they

436
00:22:23,242 --> 00:22:26,812
Speaker 5: might have years ago. You know, Grist had a story

437
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Speaker 5: about this data from the University of Colorado that shows

438
00:22:31,152 --> 00:22:36,032
Speaker 5: that since 2021, global news coverage of climate change has

439
00:22:36,111 --> 00:22:41,881
Speaker 5: dropped 38%. You know, journalists and, you know, Some of

440
00:22:41,922 --> 00:22:44,502
Speaker 5: the folks that are getting laid off are doing their

441
00:22:44,542 --> 00:22:46,182
Speaker 5: best to keep doing good work.

442
00:22:46,682 --> 00:22:50,742
Speaker 2: But fewer and fewer places to print it. I mean,

443
00:22:51,182 --> 00:22:54,461
Speaker 2: even like we get pitches all the time.

444
00:22:54,861 --> 00:22:58,842
Speaker 1: Yeah. The only reason we're turning it down is just bandwidth, right?

445
00:22:58,902 --> 00:23:02,052
Speaker 2: It's like there's just like only so much that any

446
00:23:02,192 --> 00:23:04,712
Speaker 2: outlet can do. And then the ones that are still

447
00:23:04,792 --> 00:23:08,702
Speaker 2: out there. have to constantly be fundraising as well. So

448
00:23:08,782 --> 00:23:12,141
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, it's not for lack of stories or

449
00:23:12,182 --> 00:23:15,581
Speaker 2: for lack of good journalists that are more than competent

450
00:23:15,601 --> 00:23:16,702
Speaker 2: to cover those stories.

451
00:23:17,811 --> 00:23:20,252
Speaker 1: It's, yeah, it's the industry in general.

452
00:23:20,492 --> 00:23:22,692
Speaker 2: And I think also like a lot of people are like, oh, well,

453
00:23:22,712 --> 00:23:26,892
Speaker 2: social media and the influencer economy and da-da-da. That didn't

454
00:23:26,952 --> 00:23:31,561
Speaker 2: happen like on accident, guys. That wasn't like, oh, whoops.

455
00:23:32,101 --> 00:23:36,012
Speaker 2: The tech guys ruined the media ecosystem. They built an

456
00:23:36,091 --> 00:23:40,572
Speaker 2: entire parallel information ecosystem that they could control entirely. They

457
00:23:40,611 --> 00:23:43,492
Speaker 2: gave themselves all the benefits of publishers and none of

458
00:23:43,532 --> 00:23:46,821
Speaker 2: the liability. They're very good at like wrapping any attempt

459
00:23:46,882 --> 00:23:50,681
Speaker 2: to regulate them in the language of, you know, civil rights.

460
00:23:51,162 --> 00:23:53,861
Speaker 2: as though they're not just another industry trying to avoid

461
00:23:53,882 --> 00:23:54,582
Speaker 2: being taxed.

462
00:23:56,882 --> 00:23:58,842
Speaker 1: It's incredible.

463
00:23:59,242 --> 00:24:04,542
Speaker 5: There's not a system where politicians are required to disclose

464
00:24:04,662 --> 00:24:06,382
Speaker 5: campaign funding to influencers.

465
00:24:06,831 --> 00:24:09,632
Speaker 1: That just happens in the dark. Or podcasts.

466
00:24:09,712 --> 00:24:11,552
Speaker 2: Actually, I mean, I know we're on a podcast right now,

467
00:24:11,591 --> 00:24:14,091
Speaker 2: but podcasts are actually like this is why they're so

468
00:24:14,132 --> 00:24:17,211
Speaker 2: popular with these guys is that they're not regulated by

469
00:24:17,252 --> 00:24:21,072
Speaker 2: the FCC. They're regulated by the Federal Trade Commission, which

470
00:24:21,132 --> 00:24:24,732
Speaker 2: is very different. If you hear a lie on a podcast,

471
00:24:24,772 --> 00:24:28,212
Speaker 2: for example. You can file a complaint with the FTC,

472
00:24:28,232 --> 00:24:31,152
Speaker 2: but they won't investigate it unless they get like 100

473
00:24:31,152 --> 00:24:34,752
Speaker 2: plus other complaints about the same lie. This is why

474
00:24:34,792 --> 00:24:38,672
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan was able to lie his ass off forever.

475
00:24:38,792 --> 00:24:41,292
Speaker 2: And it was only really actually other people in the

476
00:24:41,331 --> 00:24:43,972
Speaker 2: podcast industry kind of kicking up a fuss about it

477
00:24:44,032 --> 00:24:47,391
Speaker 2: that made Spotify be like, okay, we're going to fact

478
00:24:47,432 --> 00:24:52,361
Speaker 2: check some of his stuff. There's almost no legal recourse.

479
00:24:52,861 --> 00:24:55,101
Speaker 1: So... They can go hog.

480
00:24:54,922 --> 00:24:57,561
Speaker 2: Wild, both in the content and in the ads.

481
00:24:57,722 --> 00:25:01,162
Speaker 1: There's no regulation of the ads either. So like, yeah.

482
00:25:02,002 --> 00:25:05,722
Speaker 3: I mean, so just for our non-US listeners, because I

483
00:25:05,742 --> 00:25:06,452
Speaker 3: think we have some.

484
00:25:06,492 --> 00:25:07,892
Speaker 1: Thank you, Nina. Thank you.

485
00:25:08,752 --> 00:25:13,012
Speaker 4: These are American regulators that Amy's talking about. And, you know,

486
00:25:13,052 --> 00:25:15,392
Speaker 4: the sort of, I guess, the panorama is quite different

487
00:25:15,452 --> 00:25:19,962
Speaker 4: in different places. EU is certainly different. trying to do

488
00:25:20,002 --> 00:25:22,141
Speaker 4: a better job but facing a lot of like a

489
00:25:22,162 --> 00:25:24,821
Speaker 4: backlash and a lot of um you know pushback from

490
00:25:24,982 --> 00:25:26,702
Speaker 4: big tech and all like you know all of these

491
00:25:26,742 --> 00:25:28,902
Speaker 4: sort of you know industries that have something to lose

492
00:25:28,982 --> 00:25:31,262
Speaker 4: from that but yeah i mean i think you know

493
00:25:31,502 --> 00:25:34,642
Speaker 4: yeah you know they're also you know podcasts aren't regulated

494
00:25:34,662 --> 00:25:37,222
Speaker 4: they're also just really popular right yeah and so you

495
00:25:37,272 --> 00:25:39,292
Speaker 4: know politicians want to go and reach a lot of

496
00:25:39,532 --> 00:25:41,832
Speaker 4: you know reach reach a lot of people on them

497
00:25:41,892 --> 00:25:44,392
Speaker 4: that way i do think about mainstream media coverage though

498
00:25:44,412 --> 00:25:46,112
Speaker 4: i don't think it's just a numbers game i don't

499
00:25:46,132 --> 00:25:48,151
Speaker 4: think it's just that You know, I think it's a

500
00:25:48,182 --> 00:25:52,512
Speaker 4: way that coverage has traditionally been organised, you know, and

501
00:25:52,552 --> 00:25:54,832
Speaker 4: I see this as being quite different now in some

502
00:25:54,871 --> 00:26:00,412
Speaker 4: of the excellent, like, small independent outlets that have launched

503
00:26:00,452 --> 00:26:01,132
Speaker 4: in the last.

504
00:26:00,972 --> 00:26:03,552
Speaker 3: Few years, right? And even some brilliant.

505
00:26:03,152 --> 00:26:07,171
Speaker 4: Sort of investigative newsletters that are happening. I think the

506
00:26:07,212 --> 00:26:11,292
Speaker 4: way that mainstream media has always been organised is across desks, right?

507
00:26:11,351 --> 00:26:15,882
Speaker 4: And the climate crisis environment was a particular speciality, right?

508
00:26:15,932 --> 00:26:16,191
Speaker 1: And so.

509
00:26:16,742 --> 00:26:20,361
Speaker 4: Actually, the political coverage, you know, so this is like

510
00:26:20,382 --> 00:26:23,442
Speaker 4: a simple example. When we have COP, no UK prime

511
00:26:23,462 --> 00:26:27,991
Speaker 4: minister would have a climate environment journalist. with them they

512
00:26:28,012 --> 00:26:30,631
Speaker 4: will just have someone from the politics teams right and

513
00:26:30,692 --> 00:26:32,891
Speaker 4: so who are not special and who will just be

514
00:26:32,912 --> 00:26:34,762
Speaker 4: like oh and the prime minister announced that he's going

515
00:26:34,782 --> 00:26:36,721
Speaker 4: to do this you know and so um and so

516
00:26:36,821 --> 00:26:38,941
Speaker 4: i think it's just sort of lack of connecting the

517
00:26:38,982 --> 00:26:41,402
Speaker 4: dots and i think you know that's what we're trying

518
00:26:41,422 --> 00:26:42,921
Speaker 4: to do i think that's what others are trying to

519
00:26:42,962 --> 00:26:45,831
Speaker 4: do right i think okay every single beat is a

520
00:26:45,871 --> 00:26:49,992
Speaker 4: climate beat right because climate impacts real estate it impacts

521
00:26:51,802 --> 00:26:54,982
Speaker 4: your pensions, it impacts your health, it impacts sport, it

522
00:26:55,002 --> 00:26:58,352
Speaker 4: impacts education, it impacts everything, right? And it absolutely should

523
00:26:58,382 --> 00:27:01,012
Speaker 4: be the heart centre of all of our coverage. And

524
00:27:01,071 --> 00:27:03,752
Speaker 4: it's just not organised like that at all, right? And

525
00:27:03,792 --> 00:27:07,032
Speaker 4: I see some mainstream media trying to do more collaborative work,

526
00:27:07,071 --> 00:27:10,331
Speaker 4: you know, across desk, across beat. But I think, you know,

527
00:27:10,552 --> 00:27:13,811
Speaker 4: the climate is still considered to be like health. You know,

528
00:27:13,831 --> 00:27:16,631
Speaker 4: it's something that you, you know, like it's a policy area, do.

529
00:27:16,752 --> 00:27:18,532
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Rather than being something.

530
00:27:18,331 --> 00:27:21,182
Speaker 4: That is entwined And I think the lack of connecting

531
00:27:21,202 --> 00:27:23,572
Speaker 4: the dots between, for example, what we're talking about, what's

532
00:27:23,591 --> 00:27:27,792
Speaker 4: happening in Venezuela, the, you know, the massive grift going

533
00:27:27,831 --> 00:27:31,352
Speaker 4: on in the Pentagon, Iran, you know, the glaciers sort

534
00:27:31,371 --> 00:27:34,951
Speaker 4: of collapsing, the heat waves, all of that stuff. I mean,

535
00:27:35,012 --> 00:27:39,032
Speaker 4: the corruption, the big tech money in politics, all of it's.

536
00:27:38,932 --> 00:27:39,652
Speaker 3: Connected, right?

537
00:27:39,672 --> 00:27:41,932
Speaker 4: You know, and I think that just the way mainstream

538
00:27:41,952 --> 00:27:45,412
Speaker 4: media that has always been organized isn't set up to.

539
00:27:45,311 --> 00:27:46,732
Speaker 3: Be thinking in that way.

540
00:27:46,841 --> 00:27:50,572
Speaker 2: I know, I've always thought that like, um, The solution,

541
00:27:50,591 --> 00:27:52,272
Speaker 2: or at least part of the solution to that, is

542
00:27:52,331 --> 00:27:55,792
Speaker 2: having more climate people, for lack of a better way

543
00:27:55,811 --> 00:28:02,161
Speaker 2: to put it, in the editorial decision-making structure of organizations

544
00:28:02,262 --> 00:28:04,522
Speaker 2: as opposed to running the climate.

545
00:28:04,162 --> 00:28:05,242
Speaker 1: Desk or running.

546
00:28:05,302 --> 00:28:06,862
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? It's like you almost need

547
00:28:06,902 --> 00:28:10,002
Speaker 2: to have someone who sits across all of it in

548
00:28:10,042 --> 00:28:12,202
Speaker 2: a way to be able to be like, oh, that's

549
00:28:12,882 --> 00:28:13,302
Speaker 2: this story.

550
00:28:13,662 --> 00:28:13,982
Speaker 5: Or like.

551
00:28:14,811 --> 00:28:17,401
Speaker 2: We mentioned Venezuela, and every time Venezuela comes up, I

552
00:28:17,442 --> 00:28:21,601
Speaker 2: have to mention the huge Guyana-sized hole in the coverage

553
00:28:21,621 --> 00:28:26,012
Speaker 2: of all the Venezuela stuff. Marco Rubio, the month before

554
00:28:26,442 --> 00:28:30,752
Speaker 2: the U.S. started attacking boats off the coast of Venezuela,

555
00:28:30,871 --> 00:28:34,452
Speaker 2: was in Guyana- He had been brought there by the

556
00:28:34,532 --> 00:28:39,452
Speaker 2: government because the Venezuelan government has, ever since Exxon discovered

557
00:28:39,552 --> 00:28:42,491
Speaker 2: oil in Guyana, been trying to claim the territory that

558
00:28:42,532 --> 00:28:45,382
Speaker 2: that oil is in for itself. And they had just

559
00:28:45,842 --> 00:28:49,242
Speaker 2: kind of upped that a bit by sending naval ships

560
00:28:49,342 --> 00:28:53,922
Speaker 2: to the floating offshore platform that Exxon has off Guyana

561
00:28:53,962 --> 00:28:57,822
Speaker 2: to say, hey, you're illegally drilling in Venezuelan waters. And

562
00:28:58,102 --> 00:29:01,002
Speaker 2: the Exxon guys freaked out, and Marco Rubio shows up

563
00:29:01,282 --> 00:29:04,582
Speaker 2: in Guyana saying, hey, Venezuela, you better watch out. We

564
00:29:04,602 --> 00:29:09,392
Speaker 2: will do whatever it takes to protect Exxon. Specifically, that's what, like,

565
00:29:09,412 --> 00:29:11,772
Speaker 2: he didn't say to protect Guyana. He didn't say to

566
00:29:11,832 --> 00:29:13,012
Speaker 2: protect the U.S.

567
00:29:13,632 --> 00:29:16,092
Speaker 1: Or U.S. interests. He said to protect Exxon.

568
00:29:16,152 --> 00:29:19,272
Speaker 6: It would be a very bad day for the Venezuelan

569
00:29:19,292 --> 00:29:22,822
Speaker 6: regime if they were to attack Guyana or attack ExxonMobil

570
00:29:22,982 --> 00:29:24,622
Speaker 6: or anything like, it would be a very bad day,

571
00:29:24,682 --> 00:29:26,652
Speaker 6: a very bad week for them. And it would not

572
00:29:26,712 --> 00:29:30,832
Speaker 6: end well for them. I'm not going to get into

573
00:29:30,872 --> 00:29:32,632
Speaker 6: details of what we'll do. We're not big on those

574
00:29:32,652 --> 00:29:33,092
Speaker 6: kinds of threats.

575
00:29:33,152 --> 00:29:34,472
Speaker 1: I think everybody understands.

576
00:29:36,802 --> 00:29:42,662
Speaker 2: So, like, it's not even, you know, an insinuation that, like,

577
00:29:42,722 --> 00:29:45,602
Speaker 2: the government is acting on behalf of the oil majors.

578
00:29:45,662 --> 00:29:47,642
Speaker 1: They're just straight up saying it.

579
00:29:48,002 --> 00:29:52,622
Speaker 2: And, if you don't have someone in your newsroom who

580
00:29:52,662 --> 00:29:55,681
Speaker 2: can point that out when the Venezuela stuff comes up

581
00:29:55,742 --> 00:29:57,892
Speaker 2: or when Iran comes up or whatever, then.

582
00:29:57,792 --> 00:29:58,672
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just becomes.

583
00:29:59,342 --> 00:30:02,312
Speaker 2: Like a foreign policy story or a politics story.

584
00:30:03,222 --> 00:30:03,532
Speaker 5: Right.

585
00:30:03,612 --> 00:30:03,772
Speaker 1: Yeah.

586
00:30:03,792 --> 00:30:06,552
Speaker 5: I mean, we really need climate journalism to step out

587
00:30:06,592 --> 00:30:10,872
Speaker 5: of the realm of simply like science and.

588
00:30:12,412 --> 00:30:15,552
Speaker 1: The realm of the natural world. I mean, that's really important.

589
00:30:15,712 --> 00:30:19,562
Speaker 5: But, you know, I think rising authoritarianism around the world

590
00:30:19,662 --> 00:30:22,662
Speaker 5: is one of the most important climate stories that we're

591
00:30:22,702 --> 00:30:23,152
Speaker 5: seeing now.

592
00:30:23,502 --> 00:30:27,182
Speaker 1: You know, we're seeing a retraction or even collapse.

593
00:30:27,462 --> 00:30:30,592
Speaker 5: Just like with journalism, we're seeing a retraction of civil society,

594
00:30:30,612 --> 00:30:31,592
Speaker 5: both in the U.S.

595
00:30:31,652 --> 00:30:34,092
Speaker 1: And globally. I specialize more in the U.S.

596
00:30:34,232 --> 00:30:38,092
Speaker 5: And so just here, you know, thinking about big climate nonprofits.

597
00:30:38,562 --> 00:30:43,062
Speaker 5: 350.org basically shut down its U.S. operation because they lacked

598
00:30:43,142 --> 00:30:48,682
Speaker 5: funding last year. The Sierra Club has shrunk pretty dramatically.

599
00:30:48,942 --> 00:30:53,931
Speaker 5: Greenpeace is on its heels because of this lawsuit that

600
00:30:53,952 --> 00:30:58,312
Speaker 5: we covered in the series Slapped filed by Energy Transfer Group.

601
00:30:59,112 --> 00:31:03,052
Speaker 5: has just decimated their ability. Which is like famously youth

602
00:31:03,552 --> 00:31:06,852
Speaker 5: climate activism in the U.S. has shifted its focus to

603
00:31:06,892 --> 00:31:11,392
Speaker 5: authoritarianism because they say that that's, you know, we have

604
00:31:11,432 --> 00:31:14,082
Speaker 5: to fight authoritarianism if we're going to address the climate

605
00:31:14,122 --> 00:31:14,942
Speaker 5: crisis seriously.

606
00:31:14,982 --> 00:31:17,742
Speaker 2: Yes, that these two things go hand in hand.

607
00:31:18,002 --> 00:31:18,402
Speaker 1: Yeah.

608
00:31:19,022 --> 00:31:21,941
Speaker 4: So as Friends of the Earth England, actually, which is

609
00:31:21,982 --> 00:31:25,062
Speaker 4: now being led by Asad Rahman, who was once the

610
00:31:25,102 --> 00:31:28,492
Speaker 4: director of War on One, And exactly for what you're saying,

611
00:31:28,512 --> 00:31:31,862
Speaker 4: you know, it's like, actually, if you want to tackle

612
00:31:31,882 --> 00:31:34,222
Speaker 4: the climate crisis, you have to be tackling the rise

613
00:31:34,262 --> 00:31:38,362
Speaker 4: of the far right, authoritarianism, misinformation, all of those things, right?

614
00:31:38,402 --> 00:31:40,942
Speaker 3: And so it's sort of, you can't do one of

615
00:31:41,002 --> 00:31:41,962
Speaker 3: these without the other.

616
00:31:41,982 --> 00:31:43,342
Speaker 1: Yeah.

617
00:31:43,862 --> 00:31:44,302
Speaker 6: Yeah.

618
00:31:45,462 --> 00:31:47,652
Speaker 2: That's a good segue into talking about some of the

619
00:31:47,672 --> 00:31:50,352
Speaker 2: stuff that we're all working on, because actually every single

620
00:31:50,372 --> 00:31:53,552
Speaker 2: thing we just talked about Totally plays into the stuff

621
00:31:53,572 --> 00:31:54,092
Speaker 2: that we're.

622
00:31:54,592 --> 00:31:55,652
Speaker 1: Working on right now.

623
00:31:56,092 --> 00:31:59,912
Speaker 2: Aline, since your project is actually the most recent one,

624
00:31:59,932 --> 00:32:01,411
Speaker 2: do you want to talk a little bit about The

625
00:32:01,432 --> 00:32:03,842
Speaker 2: Propagandist and what you unearthed there?

626
00:32:04,782 --> 00:32:05,741
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

627
00:32:06,022 --> 00:32:09,282
Speaker 5: So Drill just put out this podcast that I hosted

628
00:32:09,342 --> 00:32:13,622
Speaker 5: and reported called The Propagandist. It's based on over 100

629
00:32:13,622 --> 00:32:17,722
Speaker 5: pages of public records from this private security company that

630
00:32:17,762 --> 00:32:21,922
Speaker 5: was hired by the parent company of the Dakota Access Pipeline.

631
00:32:22,332 --> 00:32:25,772
Speaker 5: So that company is Energy Transfer. And you'll remember in

632
00:32:25,772 --> 00:32:29,592
Speaker 5: 2016 and 2017, indigenous people from the Standing Rock Sioux

633
00:32:29,632 --> 00:32:34,352
Speaker 5: Tribe led a movement to stop that pipeline's construction, largely

634
00:32:34,692 --> 00:32:37,452
Speaker 5: on the grounds of wanting to protect their water. Also,

635
00:32:37,492 --> 00:32:41,292
Speaker 5: they were concerned about sacred sites, treaty rights, and this

636
00:32:41,392 --> 00:32:45,672
Speaker 5: global movement kind of mobilized behind the tribe, also on

637
00:32:46,052 --> 00:32:51,372
Speaker 5: the grounds of slowing the climate crisis. Um, so this company, the,

638
00:32:51,482 --> 00:32:56,402
Speaker 5: the pipeline company hired, um, this mercenary private security company

639
00:32:56,482 --> 00:33:00,212
Speaker 5: that got its start in the wake of the global

640
00:33:00,232 --> 00:33:04,332
Speaker 5: war on terror. It was founded by an ex-commander of

641
00:33:04,452 --> 00:33:09,952
Speaker 5: the special forces unit Delta Force. And they basically brought their,

642
00:33:10,252 --> 00:33:13,712
Speaker 5: I guess, war on terror tactics to the homeland and

643
00:33:13,952 --> 00:33:18,161
Speaker 5: aimed them at indigenous people. So this story focuses specifically

644
00:33:18,462 --> 00:33:22,912
Speaker 5: on that company's propaganda efforts. They hired this guy, This

645
00:33:22,972 --> 00:33:26,152
Speaker 5: tech guy, really, he was like a virtual reality enthusiast,

646
00:33:26,542 --> 00:33:31,082
Speaker 5: and he created a lot of Facebook content designed to

647
00:33:31,442 --> 00:33:35,662
Speaker 5: divide people within the movement against each other and also

648
00:33:35,742 --> 00:33:39,422
Speaker 5: to divide the movement and the surrounding communities, which were

649
00:33:39,512 --> 00:33:40,052
Speaker 5: mostly online.

650
00:33:40,432 --> 00:33:41,592
Speaker 1: White rural people.

651
00:33:41,992 --> 00:33:45,892
Speaker 5: So, you know, spread this information on Facebook without disclosing

652
00:33:45,992 --> 00:33:50,931
Speaker 5: who was behind the pages. And it really influenced the

653
00:33:50,972 --> 00:33:54,012
Speaker 5: way people thought about what was happening on the ground. And,

654
00:33:54,092 --> 00:33:56,992
Speaker 5: you know, I found that those divisions in those communities

655
00:33:57,562 --> 00:33:59,982
Speaker 5: persist 10 years later. You know, I think the story

656
00:34:00,002 --> 00:34:04,792
Speaker 5: is important because This is a type of strategy that

657
00:34:04,912 --> 00:34:07,982
Speaker 5: happens all around the world. It's rare that we have

658
00:34:08,042 --> 00:34:12,862
Speaker 5: such a close look. The stories are based on WhatsApp chats, emails.

659
00:34:13,062 --> 00:34:16,262
Speaker 5: You know, in one case, the propaganda guy is chatting

660
00:34:16,342 --> 00:34:19,571
Speaker 5: with someone who was someone working for TigerSwan who's going

661
00:34:19,692 --> 00:34:23,592
Speaker 5: undercover into the protest spaces, pretending to be a friend.

662
00:34:24,112 --> 00:34:27,431
Speaker 5: And they're really explicitly talking about how to divide people,

663
00:34:27,451 --> 00:34:34,772
Speaker 5: how to divide. break relationships, really, or potential relationships. You know,

664
00:34:34,812 --> 00:34:39,872
Speaker 5: I think this stuff really helps explain the polarization that

665
00:34:39,892 --> 00:34:43,492
Speaker 5: we see today and the tearing of the social fabric

666
00:34:43,532 --> 00:34:47,192
Speaker 5: that we see in mining communities around the world, places

667
00:34:47,232 --> 00:34:51,392
Speaker 5: where extraction happens. This is not just in this one place.

668
00:34:51,431 --> 00:34:55,052
Speaker 5: And now it's sort of on overdrive with the rise

669
00:34:55,132 --> 00:34:59,181
Speaker 5: of influencers, the collapse of journalism ecosystems and.

670
00:34:59,462 --> 00:35:02,082
Speaker 1: And the growth of AI too. Yeah, exactly.

671
00:35:02,342 --> 00:35:03,301
Speaker 4: Yeah. My.

672
00:35:04,201 --> 00:35:07,701
Speaker 2: favorite detail about the that guy is that he used

673
00:35:07,762 --> 00:35:10,932
Speaker 2: like a cute dog to to like weasel his way

674
00:35:10,971 --> 00:35:12,792
Speaker 2: into the protest camps yeah.

675
00:35:14,322 --> 00:35:14,892
Speaker 1: Oh, my God.

676
00:35:14,931 --> 00:35:19,672
Speaker 3: I'd have fallen for it immediately. Yeah, I know. I'm

677
00:35:19,712 --> 00:35:23,011
Speaker 3: a sucker for cute dogs. I mean, that's I.

678
00:35:23,012 --> 00:35:27,092
Speaker 5: Do think that the fossil fuel industry is really good

679
00:35:27,112 --> 00:35:32,242
Speaker 5: at like identifying people's fears and desires and and playing

680
00:35:32,282 --> 00:35:35,881
Speaker 5: with those in serious ways. You know, I think we

681
00:35:35,922 --> 00:35:38,542
Speaker 5: talk a lot about, oh, you know, people aren't saying

682
00:35:38,562 --> 00:35:41,761
Speaker 5: the word climate crisis as much these days. And I

683
00:35:41,802 --> 00:35:45,341
Speaker 5: think I agree that that's bad, but But also, you know,

684
00:35:45,522 --> 00:35:48,862
Speaker 5: I do think sometimes the environmental movement could do better

685
00:35:48,951 --> 00:35:50,452
Speaker 5: at meeting people where they're at.

686
00:35:50,592 --> 00:35:52,451
Speaker 1: You know, I'm in New York.

687
00:35:52,532 --> 00:35:54,232
Speaker 5: We have a mayor who's talking all the time about

688
00:35:54,272 --> 00:35:56,652
Speaker 5: affordability and it makes a big difference.

689
00:35:57,012 --> 00:35:59,312
Speaker 1: Yeah. Totally.

690
00:36:00,092 --> 00:36:01,492
Speaker 3: It's amazing you've got all this detail.

691
00:36:01,512 --> 00:36:04,592
Speaker 4: I mean, like we've all reported on the violence and

692
00:36:04,612 --> 00:36:08,232
Speaker 4: criminalization of defenders across the world.

693
00:36:08,292 --> 00:36:08,592
Speaker 6: Right.

694
00:36:08,672 --> 00:36:11,952
Speaker 4: And these sort of, you know, these old school divide

695
00:36:11,991 --> 00:36:15,192
Speaker 4: and conquer tactics that go back as far as colonialism

696
00:36:15,212 --> 00:36:20,031
Speaker 4: goes back. But then also all the counterinsurgency manuals, sort

697
00:36:20,052 --> 00:36:22,201
Speaker 4: of all those sort of tactics that, you know, which

698
00:36:22,241 --> 00:36:24,701
Speaker 4: have sort of just been tweaked and changed a little

699
00:36:24,741 --> 00:36:26,602
Speaker 4: bit to meet that, you know, meet the sort of

700
00:36:26,642 --> 00:36:29,882
Speaker 4: environment of today. And that's what we see. That's what you,

701
00:36:29,922 --> 00:36:31,931
Speaker 4: you know, you found. And we've seen that happen. We

702
00:36:31,951 --> 00:36:34,071
Speaker 4: see it happening in community after community and they do

703
00:36:34,132 --> 00:36:35,132
Speaker 4: it because it's effective.

704
00:36:35,212 --> 00:36:35,552
Speaker 1: Yeah.

705
00:36:35,572 --> 00:36:36,452
Speaker 3: I mean, it works.

706
00:36:37,112 --> 00:36:37,352
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

707
00:36:37,752 --> 00:36:40,852
Speaker 5: Yeah. And I mean, the heart of this company explicitly

708
00:36:41,112 --> 00:36:45,232
Speaker 5: talked about their work as counterinsurgency strategy. And, you know,

709
00:36:45,252 --> 00:36:49,821
Speaker 5: a really important part of counterinsurgency is basically getting the

710
00:36:49,882 --> 00:36:53,661
Speaker 5: local population to take on your priorities. You know, you

711
00:36:53,701 --> 00:36:58,122
Speaker 5: want the local people to be the ones kind of advancing.

712
00:36:58,562 --> 00:37:01,302
Speaker 1: In Afghanistan, it would be U.S. interests.

713
00:37:01,522 --> 00:37:04,642
Speaker 5: You know, it's the same thing is replicated in these

714
00:37:05,072 --> 00:37:06,051
Speaker 5: sites of extraction.

715
00:37:07,012 --> 00:37:10,022
Speaker 2: You know, I've have this like long running obsession with

716
00:37:10,422 --> 00:37:13,361
Speaker 2: the PR industry in general and like the history of that.

717
00:37:13,382 --> 00:37:16,221
Speaker 2: But the history of that is also like almost all

718
00:37:16,262 --> 00:37:20,071
Speaker 2: of the big leaders in that industry, the people who

719
00:37:20,112 --> 00:37:24,192
Speaker 2: really like innovated new tactics, they were all trained in

720
00:37:24,212 --> 00:37:25,732
Speaker 2: military intelligence first.

721
00:37:26,451 --> 00:37:28,111
Speaker 1: All like learned how to.

722
00:37:28,032 --> 00:37:32,221
Speaker 2: Do psyops in the military and then came home and

723
00:37:32,282 --> 00:37:35,062
Speaker 2: like had the skill set that they put to work

724
00:37:35,672 --> 00:37:39,151
Speaker 2: on behalf of companies against the American public. It's like

725
00:37:39,672 --> 00:37:42,052
Speaker 2: been going on for at least a century plus.

726
00:37:42,692 --> 00:37:42,852
Speaker 4: Yeah.

727
00:37:42,931 --> 00:37:44,592
Speaker 1: Amy, tell us about your book.

728
00:37:45,152 --> 00:37:49,612
Speaker 5: This is like directly related to Big News You Have.

729
00:37:51,471 --> 00:37:53,572
Speaker 2: Yes, I've written a book. I have a book coming

730
00:37:53,681 --> 00:37:57,142
Speaker 2: out this month. It's called Brought to You By, and

731
00:37:57,282 --> 00:38:01,002
Speaker 2: it is all about this kind of information warfare thing.

732
00:38:01,181 --> 00:38:04,732
Speaker 2: Each chapter is sort of like a different layer of

733
00:38:04,792 --> 00:38:07,872
Speaker 2: the information ecosystem that's been warped by these kinds of

734
00:38:07,911 --> 00:38:11,691
Speaker 2: practices and walks people through how it works. A lot

735
00:38:11,712 --> 00:38:14,402
Speaker 2: of the examples are climate and or oil related, but

736
00:38:14,462 --> 00:38:17,382
Speaker 2: not all because I really wanted people to sort of

737
00:38:17,542 --> 00:38:21,142
Speaker 2: see how these tactics work for all kinds of companies.

738
00:38:21,201 --> 00:38:27,852
Speaker 2: So any company that's trying to circumvent democracy is going

739
00:38:27,892 --> 00:38:32,451
Speaker 2: to use some combination of these tactics, if not all.

740
00:38:33,232 --> 00:38:35,772
Speaker 2: And I think also it's important to understand, and I

741
00:38:35,792 --> 00:38:38,152
Speaker 2: was thinking about this while you were talking about this

742
00:38:38,192 --> 00:38:41,172
Speaker 2: private security company too and what they did at Standing Rock.

743
00:38:41,732 --> 00:38:43,752
Speaker 1: These things that companies.

744
00:38:43,332 --> 00:38:47,492
Speaker 2: Do one time as a project to avoid, they want

745
00:38:47,681 --> 00:38:50,681
Speaker 2: to avoid bad press on a refinery project or they

746
00:38:50,721 --> 00:38:54,421
Speaker 2: want a pipeline to go through or whatever. So they'll

747
00:38:54,462 --> 00:38:57,362
Speaker 2: do all this stuff that really messes with the information

748
00:38:57,442 --> 00:39:00,471
Speaker 2: ecosystem and And then they get their thing that they

749
00:39:00,532 --> 00:39:03,252
Speaker 2: want and they leave, but the pollution is still there

750
00:39:03,312 --> 00:39:07,661
Speaker 2: and it spreads to other things, you know, like we

751
00:39:07,802 --> 00:39:10,562
Speaker 2: see it over and over again. It's like they, I mean,

752
00:39:10,602 --> 00:39:13,602
Speaker 2: this community that you reported on, it's been 10 years

753
00:39:13,741 --> 00:39:18,082
Speaker 2: and that tension that they inflamed is still like that,

754
00:39:18,442 --> 00:39:21,201
Speaker 2: you know, and how many things have happened as a

755
00:39:21,241 --> 00:39:24,531
Speaker 2: result of that, just because like they wanted to, you know,

756
00:39:25,661 --> 00:39:28,402
Speaker 2: just like throw a turd in the punch bowl and

757
00:39:28,442 --> 00:39:28,982
Speaker 2: walk away.

758
00:39:29,002 --> 00:39:30,262
Speaker 1: Right.

759
00:39:30,302 --> 00:39:33,201
Speaker 5: And these are people's lives, you know, like it's not

760
00:39:33,342 --> 00:39:36,532
Speaker 5: I mean, it is these big things like our ability

761
00:39:36,592 --> 00:39:39,212
Speaker 5: to confront the climate crisis in a serious way. But

762
00:39:39,252 --> 00:39:42,622
Speaker 5: it's also like people in a town's ability to have

763
00:39:42,661 --> 00:39:46,202
Speaker 5: a relationship with their neighbor and these are like really

764
00:39:46,282 --> 00:39:49,781
Speaker 5: intimate things that are being disrupted yeah.

765
00:39:49,451 --> 00:39:54,261
Speaker 2: Yeah um Nina, let's talk a little bit about Displaced.

766
00:39:54,362 --> 00:39:57,702
Speaker 2: This is a new season that's coming soon that Nina's

767
00:39:57,721 --> 00:40:01,471
Speaker 2: been working on all year. And it's fascinating. Every time

768
00:40:01,732 --> 00:40:03,951
Speaker 2: I mention it to people, they're like, ooh, that sounds good.

769
00:40:03,971 --> 00:40:06,192
Speaker 2: I want to listen to it. So yeah, tell us

770
00:40:06,232 --> 00:40:06,971
Speaker 2: what you've been working on.

771
00:40:08,002 --> 00:40:09,392
Speaker 3: So this is a series, Displaced.

772
00:40:09,532 --> 00:40:13,332
Speaker 4: It's in the reportings from three different communities in Latin

773
00:40:13,372 --> 00:40:17,252
Speaker 4: America where communities have been displaced or are facing displacement

774
00:40:17,312 --> 00:40:22,132
Speaker 4: because of some sort of climate disaster, including coastal erosion,

775
00:40:22,152 --> 00:40:25,692
Speaker 4: sea level rise, drought, extreme heat. And the series is

776
00:40:25,772 --> 00:40:29,551
Speaker 4: about how these communities are confronting this, you know, and

777
00:40:29,632 --> 00:40:32,592
Speaker 4: how they're trying to get their governments to do the

778
00:40:32,632 --> 00:40:34,531
Speaker 4: right thing and to, you know, to give them what

779
00:40:34,552 --> 00:40:37,161
Speaker 4: they need. And that sort of depends on the community,

780
00:40:37,221 --> 00:40:39,801
Speaker 4: what they're looking for. Some are fighting for the right

781
00:40:39,842 --> 00:40:43,482
Speaker 4: to be resettled. Others are fighting for the right to remain.

782
00:40:43,502 --> 00:40:47,182
Speaker 4: And I mean, so there's lots and lots of, you know, great,

783
00:40:47,382 --> 00:40:50,372
Speaker 4: you know, characters from the communities that I spent a

784
00:40:50,392 --> 00:40:52,252
Speaker 4: lot of time in. But also, you know, I think

785
00:40:52,332 --> 00:40:54,491
Speaker 4: in talking about coming back to connecting the dots, you know,

786
00:40:54,512 --> 00:40:56,652
Speaker 4: what we're trying to do with this series is really

787
00:40:57,431 --> 00:41:01,112
Speaker 4: connect what's happening on the ground to things that are

788
00:41:01,181 --> 00:41:03,971
Speaker 4: quite sort of like wonky and difficult to get people

789
00:41:04,092 --> 00:41:07,801
Speaker 4: interested in, like climate finance, like loss and damage, adaptation,

790
00:41:08,122 --> 00:41:12,982
Speaker 4: national adaptation policies, who's responsible, you know, who's accountable for

791
00:41:13,002 --> 00:41:16,502
Speaker 4: what's happening, how communities can access accountability and justice.

792
00:41:16,962 --> 00:41:18,301
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that will be.

793
00:41:18,282 --> 00:41:21,142
Speaker 4: Coming, I think, hopefully, yeah, the end of November, maybe

794
00:41:21,161 --> 00:41:22,401
Speaker 4: beginning of December, something like that.

795
00:41:23,042 --> 00:41:23,722
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

796
00:41:24,022 --> 00:41:26,261
Speaker 2: I think, too, like the thing that keeps jumping out

797
00:41:26,302 --> 00:41:29,772
Speaker 2: to me, I get to listen to it along the way.

798
00:41:29,792 --> 00:41:31,312
Speaker 2: And the thing that keeps jumping out to me is

799
00:41:31,431 --> 00:41:35,892
Speaker 2: the really nuanced and detailed questions around what does adaptation

800
00:41:35,951 --> 00:41:40,402
Speaker 2: look like and who gets to decide how we adapt,

801
00:41:40,482 --> 00:41:42,582
Speaker 2: how these communities adapt, even when.

802
00:41:44,201 --> 00:41:46,642
Speaker 2: You know, the thing works and like you get the

803
00:41:46,701 --> 00:41:50,142
Speaker 2: government to do the resettlement and everything. Like there's so

804
00:41:50,201 --> 00:41:53,502
Speaker 2: many other things along the way that need to happen

805
00:41:53,602 --> 00:41:56,741
Speaker 2: in order to kind of keep a community whole. And

806
00:41:56,842 --> 00:42:01,411
Speaker 2: these questions of what are these communities owed and how

807
00:42:01,431 --> 00:42:05,491
Speaker 2: do you deal with, yeah, moving like a community that's

808
00:42:05,532 --> 00:42:12,071
Speaker 2: a fishing ocean-based community further inland and without losing the

809
00:42:12,152 --> 00:42:15,192
Speaker 2: fabric of that community. There's just a lot more to

810
00:42:15,272 --> 00:42:17,812
Speaker 2: it than just giving someone a new place to live.

811
00:42:18,652 --> 00:42:23,611
Speaker 5: These are communities that are de facto criminalized by the

812
00:42:23,642 --> 00:42:27,201
Speaker 5: fact that they are brown people that are being displaced

813
00:42:27,262 --> 00:42:29,702
Speaker 5: by the climate crisis. And we're living in a world

814
00:42:29,782 --> 00:42:33,862
Speaker 5: where migration is increasingly criminalized. These are the same people

815
00:42:33,942 --> 00:42:37,882
Speaker 5: that would be snatched off the streets in Minneapolis or

816
00:42:38,002 --> 00:42:41,321
Speaker 5: New York or anywhere else in the United States and

817
00:42:41,392 --> 00:42:45,152
Speaker 5: potentially deported to countries in Africa that they have no

818
00:42:45,192 --> 00:42:49,531
Speaker 5: relationship to. So I think it's so rare that we

819
00:42:49,632 --> 00:42:52,661
Speaker 5: see in-depth coverage of these communities.

820
00:42:52,701 --> 00:42:54,362
Speaker 1: And I'm really excited to listen to that.

821
00:42:55,741 --> 00:42:58,721
Speaker 2: In fact, like that is a cycle for like one

822
00:42:58,762 --> 00:43:00,922
Speaker 2: of the communities, right? That like there are people who

823
00:43:00,962 --> 00:43:04,442
Speaker 2: have left a community because climate change has made it

824
00:43:04,602 --> 00:43:10,491
Speaker 2: less viable in terms of farming, finding a job, all

825
00:43:10,532 --> 00:43:14,332
Speaker 2: of that stuff and been criminalized in the U.S. and

826
00:43:14,392 --> 00:43:17,792
Speaker 2: sent back only to face more of the same. The

827
00:43:17,832 --> 00:43:20,031
Speaker 2: way that those two things are connected to, I think,

828
00:43:20,112 --> 00:43:21,411
Speaker 2: is super interesting.

829
00:43:22,192 --> 00:43:24,852
Speaker 4: I mean, I think, though, as well, what this reporting

830
00:43:24,892 --> 00:43:26,652
Speaker 4: and what a lot of the reporting, you know, that

831
00:43:26,712 --> 00:43:29,011
Speaker 4: I do shows is like communities are not waiting for

832
00:43:29,032 --> 00:43:30,411
Speaker 4: their governments to come and save them.

833
00:43:30,951 --> 00:43:33,801
Speaker 2: Or for like an international NGO to come and save them.

834
00:43:34,302 --> 00:43:34,962
Speaker 3: No, they're not.

835
00:43:35,102 --> 00:43:39,042
Speaker 4: And actually where the solutions lie are with these communities.

836
00:43:39,661 --> 00:43:42,301
Speaker 4: And so when we're talking about climate finance and we're

837
00:43:42,322 --> 00:43:46,431
Speaker 4: talking about adaptation plans, What we need to do is

838
00:43:46,592 --> 00:43:49,431
Speaker 4: be able to sit and listen to what people are

839
00:43:49,451 --> 00:43:52,911
Speaker 4: telling us, like what their priorities are, what the solutions

840
00:43:52,951 --> 00:43:55,451
Speaker 4: for them would look like, right? And make sure the

841
00:43:55,512 --> 00:43:59,031
Speaker 4: funding gets to them, right? Because these are communities, you know,

842
00:43:59,072 --> 00:44:02,042
Speaker 4: like we started off talking about Nepal, where Nepal has

843
00:44:02,422 --> 00:44:07,522
Speaker 4: contributed less than 0.01% of global greenhouse gases historically, right?

844
00:44:07,721 --> 00:44:11,142
Speaker 4: These communities have contributed absolutely nothing to the climate crisis.

845
00:44:11,572 --> 00:44:15,072
Speaker 4: Many of them still do not have access to electricity.

846
00:44:14,451 --> 00:44:15,912
Speaker 3: And light and water.

847
00:44:15,991 --> 00:44:16,272
Speaker 6: Right.

848
00:44:16,652 --> 00:44:19,661
Speaker 4: And so now and now even, you know, what they're

849
00:44:19,701 --> 00:44:22,781
Speaker 4: coming up with solutions, ways to adapt and ways to,

850
00:44:22,802 --> 00:44:25,882
Speaker 4: you know, to to live dignified lives. And the money

851
00:44:25,942 --> 00:44:28,801
Speaker 4: that is available isn't getting to them. And so I

852
00:44:28,882 --> 00:44:31,202
Speaker 4: think it's sort of about, you know, not only have

853
00:44:31,221 --> 00:44:34,161
Speaker 4: they not contributed to the climate crisis, they're being excluded

854
00:44:34,221 --> 00:44:36,241
Speaker 4: from the climate solutions that are on the table. Yeah.

855
00:44:36,402 --> 00:44:36,622
Speaker 5: Yeah.

856
00:44:37,462 --> 00:44:41,452
Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay, I'm just going to put in two plugs

857
00:44:41,572 --> 00:44:44,352
Speaker 2: for other projects coming down the line. One is that

858
00:44:44,431 --> 00:44:47,452
Speaker 2: we will be doing some kind of coverage from COP,

859
00:44:47,491 --> 00:44:50,882
Speaker 2: and that happens in November. COP is the annual UN conference.

860
00:44:51,442 --> 00:44:54,742
Speaker 2: climate negotiations meeting. It's being held in Turkey this year,

861
00:44:54,842 --> 00:44:58,582
Speaker 2: but it's co-hosted by Australia. There's actually quite a bit

862
00:44:58,622 --> 00:45:01,642
Speaker 2: of talk about the Pacific Island nations trying to push

863
00:45:01,802 --> 00:45:06,232
Speaker 2: Australia to push for some mention of fossil fuel phase-out.

864
00:45:06,431 --> 00:45:09,152
Speaker 2: Amazing to me that this is still even an argument

865
00:45:09,352 --> 00:45:10,432
Speaker 2: that needs to be had.

866
00:45:10,451 --> 00:45:13,231
Speaker 1: So we'll have some reporting from there.

867
00:45:13,352 --> 00:45:17,112
Speaker 2: And then also, we're actually working on a project looking

868
00:45:17,172 --> 00:45:21,181
Speaker 2: at the tech guys and their push to stop the

869
00:45:21,322 --> 00:45:26,321
Speaker 2: regulation of disinformation in Europe. There's a huge push from

870
00:45:26,392 --> 00:45:29,212
Speaker 2: them to stop that. There's a huge influx of like

871
00:45:29,372 --> 00:45:33,112
Speaker 2: MAGA groups in Europe that are also working to stop

872
00:45:33,212 --> 00:45:36,752
Speaker 2: it and pushing this idea that, you know, oh, Europe

873
00:45:36,832 --> 00:45:40,011
Speaker 2: is trying to censor the U.S. I just saw the

874
00:45:40,072 --> 00:45:43,252
Speaker 2: other day, I'm scooping myself now, but whatever. I just

875
00:45:43,292 --> 00:45:46,971
Speaker 2: saw a notice on the State Department website that the U.S.

876
00:45:46,991 --> 00:45:51,772
Speaker 2: has a call for proposals for for organizations that will

877
00:45:52,431 --> 00:45:55,272
Speaker 2: help to preserve the rule of law and fight against

878
00:45:55,332 --> 00:46:00,062
Speaker 2: censorship in Europe and preserve Western values.

879
00:46:00,661 --> 00:46:03,422
Speaker 1: So, excuse me.

880
00:46:03,442 --> 00:46:07,062
Speaker 3: Amazing.

881
00:46:08,181 --> 00:46:08,462
Speaker 5: Yeah.

882
00:46:08,482 --> 00:46:10,301
Speaker 2: So we're looking at all of that stuff too. And

883
00:46:10,342 --> 00:46:13,772
Speaker 2: that project will come out late in the year, early

884
00:46:13,812 --> 00:46:17,772
Speaker 2: next too. So lots of stuff we're trying to, you know,

885
00:46:18,812 --> 00:46:23,951
Speaker 2: Keep soldiering on over here and we'll have more episodes soon.

886
00:46:23,991 --> 00:46:28,392
Speaker 2: So we'll be running some interviews, some conversations with other

887
00:46:28,471 --> 00:46:32,861
Speaker 2: Drilled reporters, other reporters in general, authors, all of that

888
00:46:32,902 --> 00:46:35,522
Speaker 2: stuff coming up. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't

889
00:46:35,562 --> 00:46:39,221
Speaker 2: miss that. And yeah, we'll have more narrative season soon too.

890
00:46:39,241 --> 00:46:39,921
Speaker 1: Exciting.

891
00:46:40,142 --> 00:46:43,201
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've got a bunch of great interviews already lined up.

892
00:46:43,241 --> 00:46:46,962
Speaker 4: We've got human rights experts. We've got a climate justice expert.

893
00:46:47,502 --> 00:46:51,551
Speaker 4: leader from a football club in Dublin, Ireland, that is

894
00:46:51,592 --> 00:46:52,752
Speaker 4: doing amazing work.

895
00:46:52,872 --> 00:46:54,631
Speaker 3: We've got, yeah, we've got a whole bunch of really

896
00:46:54,652 --> 00:46:56,431
Speaker 3: interesting people. So, yeah.

897
00:46:56,872 --> 00:46:57,431
Speaker 1: Yeah.

898
00:46:57,692 --> 00:46:58,112
Speaker 3: Sign up.

899
00:46:58,892 --> 00:47:00,471
Speaker 5: I'm super excited to see what we'll do.

900
00:47:00,592 --> 00:47:01,511
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be great.

901
00:47:03,302 --> 00:47:04,102
Speaker 2: Thanks, Eileen.

902
00:47:04,122 --> 00:47:06,102
Speaker 3: Well, we're great, so it will be great.

903
00:47:06,122 --> 00:47:06,661
Speaker 1: Perfect.

904
00:47:13,792 --> 00:47:17,332
Speaker 2: The Spill is a regularly recurring segment of the Drilled podcast.

905
00:47:17,411 --> 00:47:19,491
Speaker 2: It comes out every Friday when we're not in the

906
00:47:19,532 --> 00:47:23,272
Speaker 2: middle of a narrative season. If you have ideas for

907
00:47:23,372 --> 00:47:26,122
Speaker 2: folks you'd like to see us interview on here, let

908
00:47:26,161 --> 00:47:26,502
Speaker 2: us know.

909
00:47:26,642 --> 00:47:28,922
Speaker 1: We're at Drilled Media on all social.

910
00:47:28,701 --> 00:47:33,482
Speaker 2: Media platforms, or you can email me at amy at drilled.media.

911
00:47:33,822 --> 00:47:36,582
Speaker 2: Links to all the stories we mentioned and to pre-order

912
00:47:36,622 --> 00:47:40,232
Speaker 2: my book are in the show notes. The Spill is

913
00:47:40,332 --> 00:47:41,752
Speaker 2: produced by Peter Duff.

914
00:47:42,512 --> 00:47:45,392
Speaker 1: Our theme song is Bird in the Hand by Fournone.

915
00:47:45,971 --> 00:47:50,072
Speaker 1: Artwork by Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment attorney is James

916
00:47:50,252 --> 00:47:52,451
Speaker 1: Wheaton of the First Amendment Project.

917
00:47:52,872 --> 00:47:57,392
Speaker 2: You can find transcripts of The Spill online at drilled.media.

918
00:47:57,822 --> 00:48:01,201
Speaker 2: Like the rest of Drilled, The Spill is distributed by

919
00:48:01,342 --> 00:48:06,482
Speaker 2: Pushkin Industries. The team there is Eric Sandler, Grace Ross,

920
00:48:06,681 --> 00:48:12,011
Speaker 2: Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Brian Shreberneck,

921
00:48:12,312 --> 00:48:13,392
Speaker 2: and Jake Flanagan.