Speaker 1: Also media, what's murdering my everyone's I'm Robert Evans, and
Speaker 1: right now I'm thinking about murdering everyone because yesterday I
Speaker 1: got stuck in traffic for Sophie six minutes.
Speaker 2: I d have a giant truck. You shouldn't have to
Speaker 2: get stuck in traffic.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I thought. But every time you drive
Speaker 1: it over other people, suddenly there's all sorts of crimes
Speaker 1: that are being committed, you know, uh huh, well by
Speaker 1: the people interest. I did have a lady back into
Speaker 1: me yesterday and hit my front end, but like it
Speaker 1: did no damage to Oh my god, I felt so bad.
Speaker 1: She was like sobbing, and I was like, look, ma'am,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to call the cops. Like your back
Speaker 1: bumper is a little cracked, but like, if you don't
Speaker 1: want to report this to insurance, I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 2: Also because the insurance will take her side if she
Speaker 2: decided it was your fault. There's even though she backed
Speaker 2: into you.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I don't think there was much of
Speaker 1: a chance of that. Like I was twenty feet back.
Speaker 1: She just pulled straight out of a parking space. Like
Speaker 1: I saw her backing up. I gave her room. She
Speaker 1: just she just just straight into me like it was like, what, lady,
Speaker 1: you had a lot of chances to recognize that you
Speaker 1: were making a mistake here, but I don't know. I
Speaker 1: see somebody cry like I'm not gonna One of my
Speaker 1: favorite things is whenever you see someone get upset because
Speaker 1: they've hit you, and you get to be like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not calling calling anybody over this. Oh it's such
Speaker 1: a good feeling.
Speaker 2: But one time someone rear ended me and I was like, look,
Speaker 2: I'm not calling everyone over like a twenty dollars centsor
Speaker 2: in the back of my terrible car. And then the
Speaker 2: kid it was a teenager. Her mom wrote me and
Speaker 2: was like, great, can I get you to sign something
Speaker 2: saying that you will not like sue or ask for
Speaker 2: money later? And I was like no, if there's paperwork involved,
Speaker 2: it goes O.
Speaker 1: That's a real different situation, ma'am.
Speaker 2: Like you want some more it's coming from insurance company.
Speaker 3: Why is everybody so unchill late? Just calm down.
Speaker 1: Everyone's lost their mind. You know who didn't lose their mind?
Speaker 1: Unlike in the future when you are all listening to this.
Speaker 1: Because I think America is about to be really chill
Speaker 1: started next week. We are we are electing a new
Speaker 1: president who, instead of Kamala or Trump, I think is
Speaker 1: going to be a being of pure light who is
Speaker 1: incapable of sin.
Speaker 4: So and I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure in like
Speaker 4: two years we will have murdered them, because a being
Speaker 4: of pure light will not get very far as a
Speaker 4: precedent in this country.
Speaker 2: We all get to wear those hats that say, be
Speaker 2: thou not afraid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh no, that part's going to be great. That's
Speaker 1: the new maga. Is be thou not afraid?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Are you a Magan? No, I'm button. Yeah. Anyway, let's
Speaker 1: talk about Lawrence of Arabia. All t e.
Speaker 2: Okay, but Edward and Lawrence of Arabia. Is he particularly religious?
Speaker 1: Not as an adult, as a kid, he is as
Speaker 1: an adult, he's just kind of like vaguely spiritual, but
Speaker 1: not like particularly religious. I think he's just kind of
Speaker 1: too much of a thinker to be particularly devout.
Speaker 2: And it makes the good sense when you're traveling around
Speaker 2: in a part of the world that has a different
Speaker 2: religion than what you were raised in.
Speaker 1: He very clearly is not someone who's like, well, all
Speaker 1: these people are going to hell, right, he does not
Speaker 1: believe that at all. Yeah. Through Dome and his experience
Speaker 1: traveling the Arab and Kurdish regions of the world, Lawrence
Speaker 1: began to develop an understanding of the brutality of the
Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire as well as it's incompetence.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: During the years leading up to the Big Dub Dub Uno,
Speaker 1: there was a general that's World War one for all
Speaker 1: of you people who hate me every time I do
Speaker 1: this bit. There was a general sense among Arabs that
Speaker 1: the Turks were at least their best bet at protection
Speaker 1: from Western imperialism, right, that like, well, we don't really
Speaker 1: like being ruled by the Ottomans, but we see what
Speaker 1: you Westerners are doing to the rest of the world,
Speaker 1: and we don't want that either. At Least these people
Speaker 1: are Muslim, Right. The British had occupied Egypt in eighteen
Speaker 1: eighty two and had fought a very bloody war there
Speaker 1: against an enemy who was seen in the West not
Speaker 1: dissimilarly from how Isis was depicted in the twenty first century.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of anger towards the West. In
Speaker 1: nineteen oh eight, just before Lawrence began his explorations, the
Speaker 1: Young Turks had taken the reins of the Ottoman government.
Speaker 1: They'd turned the Caliph into a figurehead and ignited a
Speaker 1: period of conflict over who would rule the dying empire.
Speaker 1: The Young Turks were comparatively secular, they were Western aligned,
Speaker 1: and this amped up the internal imperialism in the Ottoman
Speaker 1: Empire substantially, because that is not how most of the
Speaker 1: people in these like Arab and Kurdish and other regions
Speaker 1: of the Empire really are. The Young Turks created the
Speaker 1: Committee of Union and Progress to try and spread some
Speaker 1: of their sexy new ideas among the people they ruled.
Speaker 1: And the most significant idea they wanted to push was
Speaker 1: called pan Turanism. And this is key to understanding Tayaprassip
Speaker 1: Erdowin and the current Turkish government. It's genocide against the
Speaker 1: Kurds in Syria and against in southern Turkey. This is
Speaker 1: a very pan Turanism is a very important imperialist concept.
Speaker 2: This is that runs all the way up to like Finland.
Speaker 1: Yeah it's yeah, well, let's let me just explain it.
Speaker 1: Go ahead. This is the Turkic version of the Pan
Speaker 1: Germanic racial theories that would spread after World War One.
Speaker 1: Doctor Kave Faroch, an expert on ancient Iran, describes Pan
Speaker 1: Turanism as an ideology that aims at creating a Turkic
Speaker 1: super state stretching from the Balkans in Europe eastwards across Turkey, Iran,
Speaker 1: the Caucasus, Central Asia up to and including northwest China.
Speaker 1: Now you will recognize, if you know much about the world,
Speaker 1: that most of those areas are not Turkish. Yeah, Iran
Speaker 1: not Turkish, Northwest China very much not Turkish. You know,
Speaker 1: Central Asia not really Turkish, the Balkans not Turkish. Turkish
Speaker 1: influence in some of those places, of course, you know,
Speaker 1: go to Sarajevo, you'll see that, but not Turks. Now,
Speaker 1: this very much a historical belief is justified by the
Speaker 1: claim that all the real indigenous peoples of those regions
Speaker 1: speak Turkish, or at least in their natural state spoke Turkish,
Speaker 1: and thus should belong to the same state. Quote. Hungarian
Speaker 1: Pan turanianist activists even go further. They have proposed that
Speaker 1: the entire Eurasian land mass between Hungary and Norway and
Speaker 1: Europe to Japan and Korea was once an empire known
Speaker 1: as Turania. Apart from non scholastic websites, no linguist and
Speaker 1: no linguistic anthropological and archaeological evidence for such an empire exists.
Speaker 1: Pan Tirranean racialists and historians would beg to differ. They
Speaker 1: are impervious to logical explanations even in the face of
Speaker 1: heart evidence. I love this shit. Everything was Turks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the un shit past, it was all Turks all
Speaker 1: the way down. I just love that shit. What a
Speaker 1: batshit Like, No, everything wasn't Turkish. I'm sorry it wasn't.
Speaker 1: That's like everything was fucking It's like the Germans being like,
Speaker 1: are you know, like the root of our the Aryan
Speaker 1: race is these guys living in Nepal, you know, uh
Speaker 1: and and and also the same as like our dreams
Speaker 1: of you know, rebreeding this like Aryan perfect race. I mean,
Speaker 1: they are Aryans in Nepal, but that's not what Aryan means,
Speaker 1: you know. So this belief forms the core of a
Speaker 1: lot of current fascist theory in Turkey and underpins, for example,
Speaker 1: the genocidal acts of the Turkish state towards Kurdish rebels
Speaker 1: in the south and across the border in Rajava. Now
Speaker 1: all this a lot less settled in Lawrence's day it's
Speaker 1: just kind of gearing up. But he is watching the
Speaker 1: early stages of this thing that's going to end in genocide,
Speaker 1: and he recognizes this has a bad end, right, anything
Speaker 1: anything like this is going to not end well. And
Speaker 1: as the Young Turks, one of the ways in which
Speaker 1: they push these pan Tyrannian ideas is by disseminating anti
Speaker 1: Arab propaganda. They are arguing at this point in time
Speaker 1: that like, instead of you know, Arabs existing in all
Speaker 1: these regions, like all of them, all of these different
Speaker 1: peoples are descendants of like Genghis Khan, who is the
Speaker 1: progenitor of the nation. This kisses people off, and there
Speaker 1: are counter revolutions starting in nineteen oh nine, the year
Speaker 1: before Lorenz goes on his first dig. Now that revolution
Speaker 1: had been sparked by army officers and angry students at
Speaker 1: a religious school, but the crackdown afterwards bred hatred among
Speaker 1: locals of Armenian Christians who they saw as supporting the
Speaker 1: hated Young Turk government. Thirty thousand of these Christians were
Speaker 1: butchered and massacres that would prove an ugly prelude to
Speaker 1: the looming genocide. Lawrence arrived in the wake of all
Speaker 1: this chaos, and while he was living in Ottoman territory
Speaker 1: in nineteen eleven, Italy invaded and conquered Libya. All of
Speaker 1: this provoked a surge in Arab nationalism, which we should
Speaker 1: rightly see as not disconnected from the swells of nationalism
Speaker 1: across the Austro Hungarian Empire and elsewhere in Europe. There's
Speaker 1: a direct line between this Arab revolt that's going to
Speaker 1: brew and like Serbian nationalism, right these are all part
Speaker 1: of like a broader cultural movement around the world. Now,
Speaker 1: there are two different but not entirely contradictory explanations for
Speaker 1: what motivated Lawrence ultimately to support an Arab uprising against
Speaker 1: the Ottomans. The most sympathetic reason and the one that
Speaker 1: paints him in the best light, is related to his
Speaker 1: relationship with Dome, Lawrence's friend later in life. I. M.
Speaker 1: Forster argues that Lawrence was intimate and passionately devoted to Doome,
Speaker 1: although they never consummated the relationship, and given lawrence dide
Speaker 1: of virgin he likely had no idea to do so.
Speaker 1: Satine Who's Satin, whose biography of young Lawrence gives the
Speaker 1: best texture on the Man's Life describes the relationship as
Speaker 1: something intense but fundamentally unknowable to people reading today. However,
Speaker 1: he cites with clear textual evidence that, however we define
Speaker 1: this relationship, it inspired Lawrence's actions during World War One.
Speaker 1: In nineteen nineteen, Lawrence admitted in a letter to a
Speaker 1: friend that he had joined the Arab revolt because I
Speaker 1: liked a particular Arab very much, and I thought that
Speaker 1: freedom for the race would be an acceptable present. And
Speaker 1: that is both profoundly orientalist and also so romantic. I know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to free your people because like I like you,
Speaker 1: Like that's such a not even romantic. That's so because
Speaker 1: like I don't think this was a romantic relationship. That's
Speaker 1: so sweet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one is like I also love Okay. It reminds
Speaker 2: me a little bit about how okay, so Sam and
Speaker 2: frodok because I have to bring one of the rings
Speaker 2: into this somehow. I don't have a relationship that when
Speaker 2: Tolkien talks about like Tlkien talks about it, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's the relationship between brothers in arms and war, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And it's the kind of relationship that now that like
Speaker 2: heterosexuality and homosexuality are much more like defined doesn't translate
Speaker 2: to anything, Like the modern world has no way of
Speaker 2: understanding this relationship you're describing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2: Interesting because romantic is probably the closest word. But there's
Speaker 2: his connotations that aren't meant.
Speaker 1: That aren't meant, and that like make this seem like,
Speaker 1: for one thing is something like much more problematic than
Speaker 1: I think it was, right and man, it is just
Speaker 1: like yeah the whole Like, I like this guy so much,
Speaker 1: I am going to like free his people from imperial bondage.
Speaker 1: Like personally is kind of pretty pretty cool, know.
Speaker 2: With no background as a soldier as far as id with.
Speaker 1: No military background at this point, just the experience of
Speaker 1: like makeing chain mail and learning how to sword fight
Speaker 1: with the sprints. Yeah. Now, in a more artful bit
Speaker 1: of writing, Lawrence Laurence, this is I want to quote
Speaker 1: from a poem that Lawrence writes in Seven Pillars of Islam,
Speaker 1: which Satin argues is a poem that he is. He
Speaker 1: doesn't explicitly say this is a poem about Dome, but
Speaker 1: Satin argues this is a poem written for Dome after
Speaker 1: Dome's death. Quote, I love you, I loved you, so
Speaker 1: I drew these tides of men into my hands and
Speaker 1: wrote my will across the sky in stars.
Speaker 2: Damn Jesus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a line that's bars right there.
Speaker 2: That is beyond romance, like pale.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wrote my will across the sky and stars.
Speaker 1: He's just a good writer, you know. Yeah. So in
Speaker 1: this conception, if we take this is the reason why
Speaker 1: Lawrence ultimately back the air revolt, and I will I'll
Speaker 1: tell you right now, it can't be all of why, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are less romantic reasons that his country, Great Britain,
Speaker 1: gets involved. You know. Obviously they're not doing it because
Speaker 1: some random British dude like an Arab kid.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: As I noted last episode, the Germans had started making
Speaker 1: inroads with the Ottomans after the British pulled back their
Speaker 1: support of the Sultan zik Kaiser, who had thrown away
Speaker 1: Germany's alliance with Russia because he was a dumb shit,
Speaker 1: needed the Ottomans because once he's like fuck you Russia,
Speaker 1: he also realizes like, oh my god, there's no one
Speaker 1: watching our ASTs, right, so we kind of have to
Speaker 1: have the Ottomans now, right, And he also the Kaiser's
Speaker 1: convinced himself that well, if I get the Sultan in
Speaker 1: my back pocket, if we ever have a big fight
Speaker 1: with Great Britain, I can incite a jihad against the
Speaker 1: British Empire in India and that'll solve all my British
Speaker 1: people problems.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all Muslims are definitely in power in India.
Speaker 1: Yes, always, yes, yes, yes, that is a clear fact
Speaker 1: that you know. I mean, if you're the Kaiser, I
Speaker 1: guess I'm just kind of proud he knows enough about
Speaker 1: India to know there are Muslims there. Yes, that's more
Speaker 1: knowledge than I would have credited kaiserville Elm with. Yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: a further complication here was the recent construction of the
Speaker 1: j Jas railway, which connected the Arab Peninsula to the
Speaker 1: rest of modern day Saudi Arabia. This is a railway
Speaker 1: that goes from like, you know, the the Ottoman heartland
Speaker 1: and the Arab world all the way down through what
Speaker 1: is modern day Saudi Arabia to like Omen and Yemen.
Speaker 1: I think, right, like that's the Hjas is this massive
Speaker 1: desert peninsula, right and this is you know, the Ottomans.
Speaker 1: Once that Great Britain had gotten the sus Canal going.
Speaker 1: The Ottomans had become dependent on Great Britain to move
Speaker 1: goods to a lot of parts of the world, and
Speaker 1: this railway was not only supposed to connect a lot
Speaker 1: of these backwaters of the Empire, these tiny, little off
Speaker 1: the map places that were really completely separate from the
Speaker 1: rest of the world. It was also supposed to be
Speaker 1: this like economic lifeline to the Empire that reduced their
Speaker 1: dependence on Great Britain. The railway was so crucial not
Speaker 1: just to the Ottomans, but in a lot of eyes
Speaker 1: to the to Islam right that it had been funded
Speaker 1: by do nations from Muslims all over the world, including
Speaker 1: a huge number of Indian Muslims. And the fact that
Speaker 1: so many Indian Muslims had donated to fund the Jjas
Speaker 1: Railway was seen by a lot of like British observers
Speaker 1: as evidence that like, oh, we really do need to
Speaker 1: be worried that the caliph could spark a rebellion right now.
Speaker 1: This ties back to Lawrence because during the years he
Speaker 1: was digging, a realization had spread among the brass back
Speaker 1: home in England that we might, you know's it's becoming
Speaker 1: increasingly likely that we're going to have to scrap with
Speaker 1: the Germans, and if that's the case, we probably have
Speaker 1: to have a plan to deal with the Turks. Now,
Speaker 1: Lord Kitchener, who is like the king shit of the
Speaker 1: British military, you know, in the period leading up to
Speaker 1: in the early stages of World War One, is the guy,
Speaker 1: the man in power in the British military establishment who
Speaker 1: is first like, hey, I am backing, Like I am
Speaker 1: officially backing that we want to incite an air We're
Speaker 1: looking into the possibility of inciting an Arab rebellion in Syria, right,
Speaker 1: and support it enough to create a friendly state that
Speaker 1: will fracture Ottoman power. Right Kitchener is like, he's not
Speaker 1: the guy who originates the idea, but he's the first
Speaker 1: guy in power who's like, I think we should explore
Speaker 1: this as a potential official like policy move, Like.
Speaker 2: Is this the first time? Because this is this is
Speaker 2: like the US's playbook. Right, is you back and uprising
Speaker 2: in order to create a friendly state to the US?
Speaker 2: Is this like are their previous examples?
Speaker 1: Oh yes, from the British right. I don't the US
Speaker 1: is doing much of this. I mean it done. You know,
Speaker 1: you could look at some aspects of our history. But
Speaker 1: like we get it either way from the Brits, right,
Speaker 1: they do this in Africa, they do this all over the.
Speaker 2: Place, So it's an existing playbook.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is definitely an existing playbook. Right. This
Speaker 1: is always how the British Empire's playbook is always, you know,
Speaker 1: although it's usually a bit different because like this is
Speaker 1: we are trying to disrupt an enemy by doing this.
Speaker 1: Usually it's more we have this area we control that
Speaker 1: we are native too, and we're going to find a
Speaker 1: warrior people and we're going to both back them but
Speaker 1: also kind of incite conflicts between them and other peoples
Speaker 1: in order to take the pressure off of us.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: But you can see how like that playbook, you can
Speaker 1: you can translate that directly to what's being done here
Speaker 1: with the elements, right.
Speaker 2: Well, everyone likes doing that. The Tzar did that with
Speaker 2: the cosmics.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's a very old old playbook.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So in September of nineteen thirteen, the coming war between
Speaker 1: European powers was both something that like everyone knew it
Speaker 1: was happening, right that there was some sort of general
Speaker 1: European conflict probably and also nobody really expected it to
Speaker 1: happen right, not when it happened right. It's one of
Speaker 1: those things where it's like, well, this will happen one day,
Speaker 1: but probably not tomorrow, until eventually tomorrow comes.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: This is impression for when this comes out.
Speaker 1: Pressure for any number of things. Now, Kitchener, being a
Speaker 1: bit smarter than a lot of people in the British Empire,
Speaker 1: is not just like, well, we'll probably have a war
Speaker 1: one of these days, but not tomorrow. Kitchener's it's like, well,
Speaker 1: he's probably ready, Like, if we're going to wind up
Speaker 1: fighting the Germans and the Ottomans, we probably have a
Speaker 1: plan for how to like incite this rebellion that might
Speaker 1: get the Ottomans, you know, off of our fucking backs.
Speaker 1: So he sends operatives to Palestine to gather information on
Speaker 1: Ottoman military facilities there. Now, since the Ottomans weren't just
Speaker 1: about to okay, like spy of bes, oh, you want
Speaker 1: to send some spies the Holy that absolutely, it was
Speaker 1: suggested that they send some local boys, some local like
Speaker 1: English boys who were already in the Ottoman Empire playing
Speaker 1: at archaeology, right, And that is how Te Lawrence and
Speaker 1: his friend Ced L. Wooley find themselves called upon to
Speaker 1: act as spies for the mother country. Lawrence was described
Speaker 1: by his mentor to the Shell organization created to execute
Speaker 1: this expedition as someone who quote gets on very well
Speaker 1: with the natives. He has I think more the instincts
Speaker 1: of an explorer, but is very shy. Right, that's like
Speaker 1: the the what gets him this job. As like, you know,
Speaker 1: he's kind of doing some James Bond shit. You know
Speaker 1: six am I five doesn't exist then, but like that,
Speaker 1: that's very much what he's doing here, right, He's being
Speaker 1: brought in by the state to help provide cover to
Speaker 1: an espionage operation.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, he and Woolley insist that Dome be hired as
Speaker 1: a photographer and general assistant to the team. They are
Speaker 1: carrying out a real historical survey, but that survey is
Speaker 1: also cover to this group of actual spies that are
Speaker 1: being sent like as assistants, but are there to do
Speaker 1: their actual like spy work. Right. Lawrence is aware of this,
Speaker 1: and he writes back to his mom, we are obviously
Speaker 1: meant as red herrings. Now the trips.
Speaker 2: Could trust the male so well back then, of course
Speaker 2: nobody would look in the mail. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now the trip was mostly uneventful for our purposes, save
Speaker 1: that it marks the first time Lawrence found himself traveling
Speaker 1: the Sinai and thinking about the military value of different
Speaker 1: towns and forts along the way. One morning, he and
Speaker 1: Woolley were late meeting up with their baggage men because
Speaker 1: they were hunting a gazelle. Well, their camels, which had
Speaker 1: bolted the night before, were found, and the Egyptian police
Speaker 1: were contacted in a panic. Lawrence wrote home that quote.
Speaker 1: The result was wild telephoning all over the frontier. The
Speaker 1: Turks were wandering over their hills. About forty Arabs were
Speaker 1: arrested and brought in his hostages for our reappearance. And
Speaker 1: meanwhile we were sitting quietly wondering where in the world
Speaker 1: our tents had got to. Now. To anyone else, this
Speaker 1: would just be kind of like a funny moment, But Lawrence,
Speaker 1: being very perceptive, takes something crucial from the experience. He writes, quote,
Speaker 1: it shows how easily it is in an absolutely deserted
Speaker 1: country to defy a government. And this is going to
Speaker 1: lead him to one of the most important realizations of
Speaker 1: the last one hundred and fifty years. After the expedition,
Speaker 1: Lawrence and Woolly went back to their dig. Woolly left
Speaker 1: around June, but as was usual, Lawrence stayed. He got
Speaker 1: regular pushes to go back home, but in the last
Speaker 1: eighteen months had spent just three weeks in England. Daoum
Speaker 1: and another local friend of his, Hamoodi, had by this
Speaker 1: point heard stories from Lawrence about and they'd repeatedly asked, hey,
Speaker 1: can we would like to see You've spent so much
Speaker 1: time in our home, we would like to see England, right,
Speaker 1: And eventually, in nineteen thirteen, in the last summer before
Speaker 1: the world went mad, Lawrence obliged them. Now they stayed
Speaker 1: about ten days. He brings these two Arab friends of his,
Speaker 1: and they stayed for ten days in Oxford. They are
Speaker 1: mostly treated as like curiosities. They give like speeches and
Speaker 1: stuff in public where people get to question them about
Speaker 1: like their lives and their home. And for the most part,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's kind of interesting that this happened,
Speaker 1: but it's not super relevant to like our question, you know,
Speaker 1: where do we put this guy morally? There is one
Speaker 1: anecdote here that I think is worth reciting to you,
Speaker 1: and so I'm going to quote again from Anthony Satin's
Speaker 1: book The Young te Lawrence, where he writes about a
Speaker 1: story that Hamoodi told of this visit after Lawrence's death. Quote,
Speaker 1: many wish to photograph us Hamoodi and Dome as we
Speaker 1: sat with him, Lawrence in our customary clothes, And after
Speaker 1: they took a picture, they would come and speak to him,
Speaker 1: and always he said no, no.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 1: One day I asked why he was always saying no, no,
Speaker 1: and he laughed and said, I will tell you. These
Speaker 1: people wish to give you money, but for me you
Speaker 1: would now be rich. Don't call yourself my friend. Hamoudi
Speaker 1: shouted and say thus calmly, that you kept me from riches.
Speaker 1: It was a rare moment of cultural division between them.
Speaker 1: It also showed that the Syrians understood the wealth and
Speaker 1: privilege of their young friend. Hamodi remembered that Lawrence had
Speaker 1: laughed at his anger, and the more he laughed, the
Speaker 1: angrier Hamoudi became. Then Lawrence said, yes, you might have
Speaker 1: been rich, richer than any in Jurabulus. And I what
Speaker 1: should I have been? I should have been the showman
Speaker 1: of two monkeys. And suddenly Hamoudi admitted all my anger
Speaker 1: died down within me.
Speaker 2: WHOA yeah, yeah, so he's thinking about what he's doing.
Speaker 1: Yes, he is attempting to not that he does it perfectly,
Speaker 1: but he is trying to think ethically about the complexity
Speaker 1: and the class dynamics and wealth dynamics and disparity of
Speaker 1: his relationship with these guys.
Speaker 2: Fascinat because I was already thinking about how it's like, well,
Speaker 2: when he goes there, they're not like putting him in
Speaker 2: a on stage and being like, no, tell us about
Speaker 2: the weird, racky, cold place you're from.
Speaker 1: You know, and that does happen here, and he's like
Speaker 1: conscious and he's like, I don't want to turn this
Speaker 1: into me prostituting these boys for orientalist reasons, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: that seems bad to me.
Speaker 2: Right, And on the other hand, it probably could have been, like.
Speaker 1: He could have talked this out with them, right, There
Speaker 1: is some of that paternalism here, you know.
Speaker 2: Right totally, because they could have been like, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: let's get a rich fuck it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. They could have made that decision. And
Speaker 1: he again, he's definitely paternalistic. He's older than them. You know,
Speaker 1: this isn't unproblematic perfectly, but I also it's interesting to
Speaker 1: me that he is really trying to think about this
Speaker 1: in an ethical sense that somewhat comports with our modern ethics.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know what doesn't comport with our modern ethics, Margaret.
Speaker 2: Is it h our ads?
Speaker 1: They sure don't. But you know what I like being
Speaker 1: able to pay my mortgage. Me too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll just get to talk about it and then
Speaker 2: they make decisions together.
Speaker 1: That's right, let's make some decisions together. Let's you and
Speaker 1: me prostitute ourselves. Excellent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds great.
Speaker 1: That sounds great, and we're back. So when the war
Speaker 1: broke out in August of nineteen fourteen, the time of
Speaker 1: leisurely afternoons painting and reading with Dome were over. Based
Speaker 1: on his work in Palestine the previous year, Lawrence was
Speaker 1: offered a commission in the Army Intelligence Corps as a
Speaker 1: second lieutenant. This landed Lawrence, who's now in kind of
Speaker 1: like his mid to late twenties in Cairo, which is
Speaker 1: where the movie begins to show us his story. Right,
Speaker 1: this is where the nineteen sixty two film starts. I
Speaker 1: think it's valuable that we have we've gone a little
Speaker 1: bit back there by the time the fighting started. Kitchener's
Speaker 1: interest in sparking an aerbravolt only deepened, and he'd had
Speaker 1: several clandestine conversations with Prince Houssein ibn Ali, the Arab
Speaker 1: nobleman charged with protecting the holy cities of Mecca and Medina.
Speaker 1: Kitchener and his advisors believe that Prince Hussain could be
Speaker 1: used to sever much of the Arab world from the
Speaker 1: Ottomans and prevent them from functioning as an ally to Germany. Now,
Speaker 1: Prince Husain was not the only potential game in town
Speaker 1: for the Brits. Kitchener and his allies supported him as
Speaker 1: the new Khaliph, while others backed a young chieftain from
Speaker 1: Riad named Abdullah Aziz Aziz ibn Saud. Now did you
Speaker 1: think about that last name, Saud for ahent as to
Speaker 1: what his family's doing today? Yeah, well, yeah, they're doing
Speaker 1: quite well. Some of the evilest people on planet Earth.
Speaker 1: And Abdulla Ziz ibn Saud sucks ass too. Now so
Speaker 1: does Prince Houssein. Both of these guys are huge dix
Speaker 1: and a big part of why this Arab revolt doesn't
Speaker 1: end in a better place for the Arab world. Know,
Speaker 1: I would say overwhelmingly the blame is on the Ottomans
Speaker 1: and the European powers. But a lot of it comes
Speaker 1: down to the fact that the local leaders, you know,
Speaker 1: the Arab leaders of this revolt are also assholes, right,
Speaker 1: and that plays a role in the structures that get
Speaker 1: set up, you know, at the end of this. All right, Yeah, Now,
Speaker 1: Saud is Wahabi, right, which isn't a Puritan strain of
Speaker 1: Islam that is also strongly anti idolatry. And Prince Hussein
Speaker 1: is a guy. He is a real asshole about it.
Speaker 1: He is super anti woman. He is a very strict
Speaker 1: He's also a Puritan, right, He's the guy who like
Speaker 1: bans drinking in Mecca, you know. But he is also
Speaker 1: he's not a Wahabbist because the Wahabbies they're anti idolatry,
Speaker 1: and Prince Hussein kind of wants to be worshiped almost
Speaker 1: as much as Allah, right, like, and so he doesn't
Speaker 1: like the anti idolatry stuff about Wahabism.
Speaker 2: He's like, humility, humility is no good.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's not my bag. I am a prince. Now,
Speaker 1: the outbreak of World War One has been a disaster
Speaker 1: for Mecca, right, which is tourism would be like kind
Speaker 1: of the wrong way of saying. But it's like religious pilgrimage, right,
Speaker 1: is like what the city does, that's where its money
Speaker 1: comes from. People aren't doing as much of that. After
Speaker 1: the whole war decides like what if we take all
Speaker 1: these young men who were, you know, around to go
Speaker 1: on pilgrimages to Mecca and the like, and instead we
Speaker 1: feed them to each other's machine guns, you know, and
Speaker 1: honestly a great this is a great time to be
Speaker 1: a machine gun, bad time to be a young man.
Speaker 1: So traffic to Mecca collapses and the economy follows with it.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote from James Barr's book here.
Speaker 1: Meccans were reduced to selling their furniture and the ornately
Speaker 1: carved wooden doors and fretwork windows of their houses for
Speaker 1: firewood to feed themselves. These screens shielded their women folk
Speaker 1: indoors from prying eyes. It was a deeply humiliating resort
Speaker 1: to have to take.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Prince Hussain blames the suffering and the war
Speaker 1: itself on the secular modernizing of the Ottomans, which he
Speaker 1: says violated the Koran by, for instance, allowing women to
Speaker 1: work in the post office A major reason why Hussein
Speaker 1: gets on board with being like the figurehead of an
Speaker 1: Arab revolt against the Ottomans is he goes to Constantinople
Speaker 1: a couple of years back and he sees women working
Speaker 1: at the post office and he is it loses his mind.
Speaker 1: He absolutely goes fucking batshit over like ladies in the
Speaker 1: post office. This guy is the anti wokest of the
Speaker 1: anti wokes. He describes lady post office workers as an
Speaker 1: evil that will greatly injure us if it increases. Like
Speaker 1: alost debate, why did this terrible war happen? Why are
Speaker 1: we slaughtering each other? It's lady post office workers. He's
Speaker 1: so out of his mind the words male man, mail man,
Speaker 1: Oh god, damn it. Yeah, Prince Husain real piece of
Speaker 1: shit in this story.
Speaker 2: Okay, debate, Nce is gonna end up backing anyway.
Speaker 1: This is this is who. This is who Lawrence in
Speaker 1: England end up backing, although this is not who Lawrence
Speaker 1: personally backs. Right, Whussain is the father of the guy
Speaker 1: that Lawrence is really sees as being the great leader. Right,
Speaker 1: So debate rages within sort of the British intelligence and
Speaker 1: military establishment. It's very similar to how like during the
Speaker 1: Syrian Civil War, you had like the US kind of
Speaker 1: military intelligence back the Kurds, and you had like the
Speaker 1: CIA back these kind of alliances of like rebel groups.
Speaker 1: Well you have within you know, the military and the
Speaker 1: intelligence arms of kind of the British state are backing
Speaker 1: to Dit like Saud or Hussein, right, And there's a
Speaker 1: lot of argument over like who is better, and this
Speaker 1: is It's also worth noting that when we're parsing out
Speaker 1: the morality of this, what what Great Britain is doing
Speaker 1: here playing with these people's lives is evil. What Prince
Speaker 1: Hussein is doing here try to get absolute power, make
Speaker 1: himself into a khaliph is evil.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: The other Arabs, by the way, he wants to specifically
Speaker 1: be king of this massive greater Arab state and like
Speaker 1: wants to be ruling Iraq and Syria because that's prestigious
Speaker 1: and the Hajahs is a backwater people. The Arabs in
Speaker 1: Iraq and Syria don't want this guy ruling them, you know,
Speaker 1: they don't like him more than they like the Ottomans
Speaker 1: in some cases a lot less.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: But also when we're talking about like the morality of this,
Speaker 1: you know, what Great Britain is doing here is fucked up.
Speaker 1: The Ottomans are actively doing a genocide. They are doing
Speaker 1: the Armenian genocide in this period of time. So there's
Speaker 1: not like a there's not like a ah. These are
Speaker 1: the this is the shining bright side of this conflict.
Speaker 1: To back, these guys were the real heroes here. Everyone's
Speaker 1: an imperialist and everyone's a piece of shit.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Lawrence might have the most noble you know, kind of
Speaker 1: alongside a lot of the like individual dudes who are
Speaker 1: just like fighting because like it seems like the Ottomans suck.
Speaker 1: But of the people with like power in this he's
Speaker 1: at least less objectionable than some. So he spends the
Speaker 1: first two years of his time as an intelligence agent
Speaker 1: from fourteen to sixteen in Egypt in Cairo, writing intelligent
Speaker 1: summaries from hundreds of sources across the region. Right other
Speaker 1: people are bringing in data, he is like turning it
Speaker 1: into briefings and sending it out right. And he becomes
Speaker 1: as a result of this duty. He's a guy who
Speaker 1: studies constantly. He's fascinated in the culture of the region,
Speaker 1: and he becomes acquainted with the history of the Bedouins.
Speaker 1: These are the nomadic peoples in the Hisjahs in this
Speaker 1: in the Arab Peninsula, and they are primarily the way
Speaker 1: everyone sees them, raiders and bandits, right. They fight a
Speaker 1: lot within each other. They are a clannish tribal people,
Speaker 1: and they make a lot of their living from like banditry, you.
Speaker 2: Know, comparable to the Kurds at the time.
Speaker 1: Maybe, Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean you could definitely draw that in some ways, right,
Speaker 1: And like, you know, you've got some of these guys
Speaker 1: like Prince Hussein who have started to urban eye, but
Speaker 1: you also have these people who like they very much
Speaker 1: do live this nomadic existence except for the fact that
Speaker 1: they have guns, not different from how they would have
Speaker 1: lived seven hundred years ago, and like Muhammad was alive, right,
Speaker 1: So the fact that Lawrence is starting to understand these
Speaker 1: people and study them was going to prove crucial to
Speaker 1: what comes next. But at the time, he's really frustrated
Speaker 1: that he's like forced to just sit on his ass
Speaker 1: and do nothing. In May of nineteen fifteen, less than
Speaker 1: one year into the war, his brother Frank had been
Speaker 1: killed in France. Four months later, his youngest son Will
Speaker 1: was shot down and perished.
Speaker 2: Youngest brother.
Speaker 1: Yeah, youngest brother Will was shot down in Paris. So
Speaker 1: he loses two brothers in the first two years of
Speaker 1: the war. While he's sitting in this office in Cairo
Speaker 1: being bored, and he is racked with survivor's guilt over this.
Speaker 1: He and his brothers had been very close. In letters
Speaker 1: home to his mother, he veered between shows of strength
Speaker 1: in a time of such fearful stress in our country,
Speaker 1: it is one's duty to watch every to watch very
Speaker 1: carefully lest one of the weaker ones be offended. But
Speaker 1: he also complained to her, we do nothing here except
Speaker 1: sit and think out harassing schemes of Arabian policy. My
Speaker 1: hair is getting very thin and gray. I'm going to
Speaker 1: be in Cairo till I die. You know, he's an
Speaker 1: emotional guy. He's going through a lot here. This is
Speaker 1: a complex time to him, and his grief is compounded
Speaker 1: by fury at the failed Allied invasion of Gallipoli, masterminded
Speaker 1: by friend of the Pod Winston Churchill. This was a
Speaker 1: vast invasion by sea of the Ottoman coast that ended
Speaker 1: in just just the worst fuck up ever. Right, one
Speaker 1: of the great disasters in military history, you know, pick, yeah,
Speaker 1: just a calamitous fuck up. Now, Lawrence writes a report
Speaker 1: on precisely why the campaign, which he termed a disgrace failed.
Speaker 1: It was buried this report of his to protect the
Speaker 1: people who'd planned it. Right, we can't have Winston Churchill
Speaker 1: getting criticized, heres h. And it's a very good James
Speaker 1: Schneider writes in his book Guerrilla Leader. He discovered then
Speaker 1: the reality in modern war that the civilian population will
Speaker 1: always suffer when a European power pursues its national interest
Speaker 1: without regard to the culture and political aspirations of the
Speaker 1: native populace. Right. And so this is kind of like
Speaker 1: he makes a he makes a decision here that to
Speaker 1: be different, that like, we have to be different, because
Speaker 1: like if we're not, if we make these decisions but
Speaker 1: purely on what we know and think of war without
Speaker 1: any kind of like uh uh, you know, without any
Speaker 1: sort of openness to the realities on the ground, we
Speaker 1: wind up walking into disasters. Right. He is trying to
Speaker 1: preach against Vietnam syndrome, right where you just like stumbling, well,
Speaker 1: we're America, we know how to fight a war. This
Speaker 1: is how you do it. I don't need to know
Speaker 1: shit about this country, right, I'll just fight this the
Speaker 1: way I fight every war. Ops turns out it's a
Speaker 1: different part of the world that doesn't work here, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it wasn't a big thing, is that when
Speaker 2: the Brits were trying to fight in the Ottoman Empire,
Speaker 2: like because there just wasn't transportation and all this thing,
Speaker 2: like the modern method of moving all of the arms
Speaker 2: and all those things just like fell apart.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean a lot of its supply issues
Speaker 1: and stuff. But this was also stuff. If there had
Speaker 1: been more knowledge of the realities of the geography of
Speaker 1: the era, they wouldn't have tried it. Right. With more
Speaker 1: knowledge and less arrogance, you would just like, no, we
Speaker 1: can't do this, we don't have the capacity.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: On June tenth, nineteen sixteen, Prince Hussein had been goaded
Speaker 1: sufficiently into action that he used a small force of
Speaker 1: fighters to lay siege the Turkish garrison at Mecca. They
Speaker 1: took it after three days, but the rebellion lost steam
Speaker 1: after that. Medina did not fall, and it was clear
Speaker 1: to anyone with eyes that the Ottomans would soon exact
Speaker 1: a punishment because their garrison and Medina is isolated, but
Speaker 1: they've got this train that can get stuff down there,
Speaker 1: so they had the ability. Eventually, we'll get enough guys
Speaker 1: there that will crack down on this little rebellion. Now,
Speaker 1: much of the internal debate in this period among the
Speaker 1: British revolved around whether or not we should send our
Speaker 1: own troops in to stop the Ottomans from like crushing
Speaker 1: this rebellion, specifically from capturing a place called Rabigue, which
Speaker 1: contained valuable wells that would allow resupply for an attack
Speaker 1: on Mecca. The problem was twofold number one. If the
Speaker 1: British sent in Christian soldiers, white guys, right, that would
Speaker 1: infuriate soldiers because like Christians are not supposed to be
Speaker 1: in the Holy Land, you know, and that would dry
Speaker 1: up support for the rebellion if it's seen as like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is really just a British thing, Oh, the British
Speaker 1: are in this, you know, Like maybe people aren't going
Speaker 1: to be willing to die if they're like, oh, so
Speaker 1: we're just we're just fighting to become slaves of the
Speaker 1: British Empire. Well I don't like that any better, right,
Speaker 1: But at the same token, the British have this option.
Speaker 1: We have all these Muslim soldiers right from Indie, India.
Speaker 1: We could send in with modern guns and that they
Speaker 1: would probably make a difference. But if we send in
Speaker 1: Muslim soldiers, no one's going to believe that Prince Hussein
Speaker 1: is backed by us. And that's also necessary because otherwise
Speaker 1: why would you take him seriously if he doesn't have
Speaker 1: the backing of a great power. Right, So it's just
Speaker 1: like catch twenty two situation, you know of, like we
Speaker 1: can't send in white guys, but nobody takes it as
Speaker 1: seriously unless they see some white guys. And Lawrence is
Speaker 1: on the side of arguing that we absolutely cannot send
Speaker 1: in British soldiers, right, and he argues interestingly, he takes
Speaker 1: the stance that not only should we not send in
Speaker 1: British soldiers, they're not needed. The Bedouins can on their
Speaker 1: own defeat the Ottomans in Hajas, so long as we
Speaker 1: arm them properly. Right. His attitude is, we don't need
Speaker 1: to send in troops. They can handle this. They just
Speaker 1: need guns.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now he is also terrified. A big motivation for Lawrence
Speaker 1: is that the French are poking around this situation. They
Speaker 1: keep being like, oh, you guys don't want to send
Speaker 1: in troops. We got troops, we can send in troops,
Speaker 1: and then ends in maybe maybe's the Arab peninsula is
Speaker 1: a French peninsula, you know, perhaps we wind up with
Speaker 1: Siria I A. Yeah, like that is that is what
Speaker 1: they're The French wants Syria in particular, right like they
Speaker 1: see this as like natural French territory, Syria.
Speaker 2: Everywhere's natural French to everywhere is natural French territory.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right now, Lawrence, he's not just he's not just
Speaker 1: doesn't like this because the British and the French don't
Speaker 1: like each other traditionally. He is a man of the world,
Speaker 1: and he is aware that the French when they took
Speaker 1: Algeria immediately carried out a hideously brutal genocide. And he's like, well,
Speaker 1: if they take Syria, they're going to do another genocide, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's just how the French be. He argued in
Speaker 1: letters meant to be read by other British officers that
Speaker 1: supporting Prince Husain as the new caliph also would effectively
Speaker 1: neuter Islam as a threat to the empire. Right, so
Speaker 1: there's a very imperialist slight to this too. Although the
Speaker 1: question is does he believe that, like, ah, we can
Speaker 1: neuter Islam as a threat to our ambitions in India
Speaker 1: or does he know that saying that will get people
Speaker 1: to back his play back home.
Speaker 2: Because the hardest things when you look at history.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, especially since Lawrence lies to his Arab allies,
Speaker 1: and he lies to his British masters. He lies constantly
Speaker 1: to them, So it is not he He is, you know,
Speaker 1: deceitful to some of these Arabs that he claims to
Speaker 1: care about, and he is deeply deceitful to all of
Speaker 1: his superior officers. So the idea that he would just
Speaker 1: be like, oh yeah, this will stop Islam from overthrowing
Speaker 1: you know, the Indian subcontinent or whatever. Like, if he
Speaker 1: thought that lie would work, he would say it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not necessary. It could be instead of Orientalism, just
Speaker 1: him trying to manipulate his bosses, right, who he knows
Speaker 1: are oriental who he knows are orientalists?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, Lawrence kind of makes a name for himself
Speaker 1: in all of these arguments, and he's also because of
Speaker 1: some I'm not going to get into all of the
Speaker 1: politicking within the British military establishment, but he winds up
Speaker 1: getting to go along with like his boss, to the
Speaker 1: Hjaws in order to meet some of these people because
Speaker 1: the other guy who like should have gone in his
Speaker 1: place was too controversial as a result of all these
Speaker 1: arguments over who to back and whether or not to
Speaker 1: send troops. So Lawrence gets to go. This is his
Speaker 1: first time kind of going to the Jjaws, and over
Speaker 1: the course of ten days he meets in befriends the
Speaker 1: prince's son, Faisal Faisal Hussein, and Faisal is the guy,
Speaker 1: He's the guy that you see in the movie, and
Speaker 1: he's the guy that, like Lawrence, is actually going to
Speaker 1: back as the leader of this future Arab state that
Speaker 1: he wants to incite to rebellion and independence. Faisal and
Speaker 1: him get along so well that Faisal kind of insists
Speaker 1: that Lawrence become his appointed liaison to the British army,
Speaker 1: and Lawrence, for his part, becomes convinced that Faisal is
Speaker 1: the future of the revolt, writing back that Faisal has
Speaker 1: quote leadership, not intellect, nor judgment, nor political wisdom, but
Speaker 1: the flame of enthusiasm that would set the desert on fire.
Speaker 1: Thus the title of the Thus the title of Barr's book. Now,
Speaker 1: the primary opponents of arming the rebellion countered Lawrence by
Speaker 1: arguing that the Bedouin were, in one officer's words, untrained rabble,
Speaker 1: most of whom have never fired a rifle. And this
Speaker 1: is a complicated There's a lot of like back and
Speaker 1: forth where like they'll be promised arms, Lawrence will kind
Speaker 1: of say like, oh, I just got back from my boss.
Speaker 1: His guns are coming in, so we need to carry
Speaker 1: out this attack. But like the guns are coming, and
Speaker 1: like the guns are not coming. Lawrence is lying to them.
Speaker 1: He's pretending that this has been done, and he's doing
Speaker 1: it because he wants to. He's trying to motivate them
Speaker 1: to carry out attacks that he thinks that they can
Speaker 1: succeed at, and they in fact do succeed at. Right,
Speaker 1: But he is also lying to them, and also the Britis.
Speaker 1: It's paternalism, right, It's the same thing, yeah, exactly. And
Speaker 1: also separately, the British are just say agreeing to send arms,
Speaker 1: and then there will be some like behind the scenes
Speaker 1: fight and they'll be like, oh, actually we can't do that, right,
Speaker 1: Although you know a lot of arms do wind up
Speaker 1: getting to these rebels, right. So Lawrence knows that, you know,
Speaker 1: in order to kind of secure support for Faisal to
Speaker 1: get these arms, he has to make a case very
Speaker 1: clearly to his very hesitant superiors that the Bedouins can
Speaker 1: win this war. Right. Lawrence arrived shortly after the situation
Speaker 1: in the southern Hejas had devolved into a stalemate, one
Speaker 1: that favored the Turks. Faisal's men had worn out a
Speaker 1: lot of their initial strength, failing to chew through the
Speaker 1: defenses of Medina, but the Turks had made unexpected retreats
Speaker 1: after rumors of an era of attack, which had allowed
Speaker 1: Faisals men to capture the port of Rabigue in the
Speaker 1: first place. This was confusing because they'd moved vastly superior
Speaker 1: forces into the region. It was in analyzing their decisions
Speaker 1: here like why all of this happened, that Lawrence would
Speaker 1: make his first key realization, and here is how Schneider
Speaker 1: describes it. Why did the Turks waiver? It occurred to
Speaker 1: Lawrence that perhaps the virtue of irregulars lay in depth,
Speaker 1: not in face, and that it had been the threat
Speaker 1: of the attack by them on the Turkish northern flank
Speaker 1: which had made the enemy hesitate so long the actual
Speaker 1: Turkish flank ran from their front line at Rebeg their face,
Speaker 1: in Lawrence's words, to Medina, a distance of some fifty miles.
Speaker 1: But if we moved towards the Jjaz railway behind Medina,
Speaker 1: we might stretch our threat and accordingly their flank as
Speaker 1: far potentially as Damascus, eight hundred miles away to the north.
Speaker 1: Such a move would force the Turks to the defensive,
Speaker 1: and we might regain the initiative. Do you see what
Speaker 1: he's saying here, Because this is the core of his
Speaker 1: understanding of how to do an insurgent the struggle.
Speaker 2: You can present yourself as everywhere at once, and it
Speaker 2: makes up a regular army.
Speaker 1: Exactly. We've got this like fifty mile front, and in
Speaker 1: a conventional European war, that would be the threat area, right,
Speaker 1: that would be the attack. That's the area that have
Speaker 1: to worry about. But because we have all of these
Speaker 1: tiny little units of guys on camel who are capable
Speaker 1: of traveling for weeks at a time and then carrying
Speaker 1: out insurgent attacks, actual area they have to defend is
Speaker 1: eight hundred miles deep, and so they can't attack and
Speaker 1: care and regain the initiative the way they otherwise would
Speaker 1: be able to because they have to have forces split
Speaker 1: off and be aware of all of these potential everywhere
Speaker 1: is vulnerable, right and by doing that, we don't actually
Speaker 1: even have to carry out all that many attacks. Just
Speaker 1: the reality of our threat opens possibilities to us.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like the Ira is a we only
Speaker 2: have to be lucky ones. You have to be lucky
Speaker 2: every time.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that's what he is starting to realize here.
Speaker 1: You know, the better Wins know the terrain much better
Speaker 1: than the Turks, who are not locals, and they can
Speaker 1: travel in small groups almost indefinitely with minimal need for resupply,
Speaker 1: launching frontal attacks with these things, and there's not many
Speaker 1: of them. The better Wines are not in numerous people.
Speaker 1: These are you know, nomads are not a high population
Speaker 1: group in the desert, so you don't want to use
Speaker 1: them the way British officers instinctively wanted to use them,
Speaker 1: by like sending them to run at guns until they
Speaker 1: were all gone. That is kind of what a lot
Speaker 1: of Lawrence's superior sye is like, Well, this is how
Speaker 1: you fight a war, right, we just throw them at
Speaker 1: guns and like, oh, they're not good at being thrown
Speaker 1: at guns. There's there's this whole thing. The British like
Speaker 1: really have this distaste for these these better win troops
Speaker 1: because like they're scared of artillery. They don't like to
Speaker 1: get blown up. It must like their religion tells them
Speaker 1: they won't go become whole in heaven if they get
Speaker 1: blown up, So like fools, they're scared of field guns.
Speaker 1: This cowardly Arab terror at being exploded. Which is funny
Speaker 1: because is it all.
Speaker 2: Of war changing after World War One, where we yes,
Speaker 2: it should no one's good at running at machine gun nests.
Speaker 2: Yeah it's a bad idea.
Speaker 1: But they still have it. The British have not really
Speaker 1: figured this out yet. Some of them have, but like
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of people are still doing
Speaker 1: the old ways. And yeah, there's like this whole Can
Speaker 1: you believe these cowardly don't like to explode, not like
Speaker 1: our good English boys they love blowing up in fields.
Speaker 1: They can't blow up enough. It's so fucking funny to me.
Speaker 1: They're just like looking at generations being wiped out in
Speaker 1: the trenches for nothing, and like why don't the Muslims like.
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: These primitive people hate dying. Oh, it's so funny. So
Speaker 1: Lawrence is like, we don't we shouldn't be wasting them, right, Like,
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of these guys, and they can
Speaker 1: do so much more damage if we split them into
Speaker 1: these tiny like fire teams and send them in behind
Speaker 1: the lines to fuck shit up, right, And that will
Speaker 1: open opportunities for us to carry out massed attacks in
Speaker 1: areas when we have the advantage and when we can
Speaker 1: actually sweep over them without taking nightmarish casualties, which is.
Speaker 2: The actual reality of guerrilla wars is not just these
Speaker 2: isolated strike so you have to also work with the
Speaker 2: like mass attacks.
Speaker 1: No, it is. It's what you call that. The modern
Speaker 1: term is, it's a strategy of tension. If you keep
Speaker 1: enough tension on the enemy to where they have this
Speaker 1: massive flank that they have to defend, then they will
Speaker 1: make mistakes. They will expose areas that you then can
Speaker 1: take with more conventional attacks. Okay, yeah, Now, Lawrence advised
Speaker 1: his allies to move troops away from prepared defenses and
Speaker 1: towards operating a terrain that would let them strike at
Speaker 1: the railway with one redeployment, Faisal's men went from threatening
Speaker 1: a single city to two hundred miles of this railway.
Speaker 1: Lawrence began to take part in raids on isolated Turkish units,
Speaker 1: defending chunks of railway or on patrol. Over the course
Speaker 1: of three months, he got a feel for his Bedouin troops.
Speaker 1: Being largely composed of family units from a culture with
Speaker 1: a low population, they had little stomach for casualties. At
Speaker 1: one key battle in January nineteen seventeen, the Arab forces
Speaker 1: overran Ottoman defenders in a town called Wash, alongside British
Speaker 1: infantry and naval support. The Brits lost one man, the
Speaker 1: Arab tribesmen lost twenty. Now, the British officers in charge
Speaker 1: of this operation had all fought in France, and they
Speaker 1: were like, fucking twenty one dudes to take a town,
Speaker 1: this is great, right, Yeah. Lawrence had to caution them
Speaker 1: that like, no, no, no, the Bedouin don't feel like
Speaker 1: this is a great victory quote. Instead, he feared their
Speaker 1: deaths might easily upset Arab morale. Our rebels were not
Speaker 1: materials like soldiers, but friends of ours, trusting in our leadership.
Speaker 1: In his book, yeah I do love that like soldiers,
Speaker 1: you know, they're just materials. They're trash basically, right. He's like, no, no,
Speaker 1: these guys are our buddies and they don't like to
Speaker 1: see their family die. Right, You're going to war with
Speaker 1: your uncle. It's not just a casualty, right, Like that's
Speaker 1: your uncle got killed. In his book, James Barr notes
Speaker 1: that Lawrence later added this explanation, we were not in command, Nash,
Speaker 1: but by invitation, and our men were volunteers, individuals, local men, relatives,
Speaker 1: so that death was a personal sorrow to many in
Speaker 1: the army.
Speaker 2: I mean that's a better way to run a I mean,
Speaker 2: I guess it's probably bad, like strategically in some why war, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because it makes them think more carefully and instead of
Speaker 2: just throwing people in the machine gun us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yeah, it is. It is the right and
Speaker 1: it's why this this war that that is carried out
Speaker 1: over the Arab revolt and in broader terms a lot
Speaker 1: of because this isn't the only part of the war
Speaker 1: in the Middle East, right, the British occurring out conventional
Speaker 1: military actions trying to take the Holy Land in this period,
Speaker 1: which had been disastrous up to this point. There's an
Speaker 1: attempted invasion of Jerusalem. That's just a fucking catastrophe, you know.
Speaker 1: But but there are more conventional attacks. But where they're
Speaker 1: taking and like large chunks of land and like entire
Speaker 1: influential cities and ports. And you're seeing, like two guys
Speaker 1: died in this battle, right, two of our giants, right,
Speaker 1: Like that is the thing where Lawrence is active, because
Speaker 1: they are thinking smart.
Speaker 2: You know that. That's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty cool. Now. One of the reasons why
Speaker 1: the Europeans had not felt, as I said, that the
Speaker 1: Bedouins could be good soldiers is that they're scared of
Speaker 1: artillery and Lawrence. In these letters he's writing back to
Speaker 1: like the British General staff argues this is they're not
Speaker 1: scared of hardship itself. Like they're not scared of fighting.
Speaker 1: They're not even scared of dying, you know. He writes
Speaker 1: this in Seven Pillars of Wisdom. In mass they were
Speaker 1: not formidable, since they had no corporate spirit, nor discipline,
Speaker 1: nor mutual confidence. The smaller the unit, the better its performance.
Speaker 1: A thousand were a mob ineffective against a company of
Speaker 1: trained Turks, but three or four Arabs in their hills
Speaker 1: would stop a dozen Turks. Napoleon remarked this of the Mamluks,
Speaker 1: we were yet too breathless to turn our hasty practice
Speaker 1: into principle. Our tactics. We're imperial snatchings, we're empirical snatchings
Speaker 1: of the first means to escape difficulty. We were learning
Speaker 1: like our men. This recognition that again, you know, just
Speaker 1: thinking about modern times is like, well, if you get
Speaker 1: a thousand these people together, it's just chaos, right, Like
Speaker 1: everyone's fighting with each other. People don't really get along
Speaker 1: very well. They certainly don't trust each other in battle.
Speaker 1: But if you separate them into these three and four
Speaker 1: man groups, then you can make them extremely effective, right,
Speaker 1: and then maybe occasionally take the risk of having them
Speaker 1: carry out larger actions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is the way that I would
Speaker 2: assume my friends would be useful.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, Yeah, So his first few months in theater,
Speaker 1: we're too chaotic and violent for much in the way
Speaker 1: of groundbreaking strategy. Overwhelt arcing strategy to occur to him, right,
Speaker 1: He's kind of it's catches catch can. But later in March,
Speaker 1: Lawrence gets lucky, by which I mean he nearly dies
Speaker 1: from another one of his constant illnesses. He gets this
Speaker 1: horrible mix of like boils and malaria and the shits
Speaker 1: that malaria shit. Yeah, he spends ten days dying in
Speaker 1: a tent. To distract himself from dying, he spends all
Speaker 1: of the time kind of like hallucinating from dehydration and
Speaker 1: writing out the most influential military theory of the century.
Speaker 1: And he's consolidating here these years of military theory that
Speaker 1: he had studied back in school and applying it to
Speaker 1: his experiences thus far in the Hajahs. And as he's
Speaker 1: trying to do this, his mind is drawn to an
Speaker 1: Austrian general, Maurice de Sachs, who back in the early
Speaker 1: seventeen hundred, had decided that the generals of his day
Speaker 1: spent too much time worried about tactical details. How do
Speaker 1: I move this unit in opposition to this unit right
Speaker 1: in order to get a flight? How do I get
Speaker 1: this unit of riflemen? How do I get cavalry around
Speaker 1: their side to flank this one group of guys? Right,
Speaker 1: that's a tactical problem, right, And Desas is like, really
Speaker 1: the game is figuring out larger operational concerns what he
Speaker 1: cal calls the higher problems of War Now. Interestingly enough,
Speaker 1: Desacks had written his book, which is kind of the
Speaker 1: precursor to Lawrence's groundbreaking work, while he was dying for
Speaker 1: two weeks in a tent.
Speaker 2: I mean it makes sense.
Speaker 1: It's like, although you're a soldier, that's what you do. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: two things soldiers love cigarettes and dying intents.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, Dsas had written a book about war that provided
Speaker 1: the framework for Lawrence's understanding of how the Bedouins fought.
Speaker 1: An article I found helpful in all this is t e.
Speaker 1: Lawrence and the Art of War in the twenty first
Speaker 1: Century by George GOWRICHI. He writes, Dessas offered a theory
Speaker 1: of war based on the model of a general who
Speaker 1: practiced the dictum that a war might be won without
Speaker 1: fighting battles. Whether Lawrence was aware of this or not,
Speaker 1: others had presented a similar ideal some twenty five hundred
Speaker 1: years earlier. Sons sue the most famous Yeah exactly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: soun Su has a quote about this, right, and he's
Speaker 1: the guy. You'll see him recommended often today in the
Speaker 1: reading of Instagram posts of guys who want to sell
Speaker 1: you one regulated testosterone.
Speaker 2: I know, las still worth reading it's still.
Speaker 1: Worth reading, and Lawrence is going to he's not reading
Speaker 1: Sun Sux here, but he's going to use Disacks who
Speaker 1: saying a similar thing in a very useful way. It
Speaker 1: has become clear to him that the Automan ability to
Speaker 1: project power rested entirely on the Jjah's railway, which were
Speaker 1: in the length of the peninsula and cut through this
Speaker 1: infinity of desert. But the railway was incredibly vulnerable. It
Speaker 1: is so long you can't have men stationed on every
Speaker 1: inch of it, and Ottoman troops have very little ability
Speaker 1: to maneuver outside of where the railway takes them. Now,
Speaker 1: any fool with soldiers can tell you that if your
Speaker 1: enemy has a train, blow it up. But Lawrence is
Speaker 1: smarter than this. He's like, no, no, no, don't blow
Speaker 1: it up. That's the worst thing to do. If you
Speaker 1: destroy the train so it can't operate, your enemy has
Speaker 1: to adapt and find a different way of getting troops
Speaker 1: and supplies in theater. And when they adapt, that will
Speaker 1: make them less vulnerable to you. If you just buck
Speaker 1: with the railway constantly damaging bits and pieces of it,
Speaker 1: they'll have to keep repairing it. They'll have to keep
Speaker 1: sending troops to these different areas to repair it. They're
Speaker 1: going to have their repair crews, they're going to be
Speaker 1: like spending resources to do this. And every resource that
Speaker 1: they scramble to defend and repair this railway is a
Speaker 1: source that's not out there actually pressing the attack or
Speaker 1: defending other territory. Right, you want to keep them on
Speaker 1: the railway. You just want to fuck with it a
Speaker 1: little bit, you know. Yeah. World military Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay, Now, I'm like, yep, this is this man.
Speaker 1: This man is smart. This is a guy with some
Speaker 1: stuff going on under the hood. Yeah. Now, world military
Speaker 1: history is filled with insurgent movements. Alexander the Great dealt
Speaker 1: with this shit, and he was not the first imperial
Speaker 1: warlord to do so. What makes Laurence special is not
Speaker 1: just his understanding of gorilla tactics, but how to marry
Speaker 1: them to the larger greater power struggle. And here's Gowerchee again.
Speaker 1: In developing his own theory of a regular war, Lawrence
Speaker 1: identified three key elements for analysis, the algebraic, the biological,
Speaker 1: and the psychological. The algebraic element of things refers to
Speaker 1: the physical environment that has shaped warfare in the Hejahs.
Speaker 1: For Lawrence, this was the decisive moment. Using simple math,
Speaker 1: Lawrence calculate at the size of territory held by the
Speaker 1: Arabs in relation to the number of Ottoman troops in theater.
Speaker 1: The Ottomans, with only sixteen thousand troops in Arabia and
Speaker 1: with a shortage of staunch Arab allies among the tribes,
Speaker 1: lacked enough soldiers to establish effective control over one hundred
Speaker 1: and forty thousand square miles of territory geogret geography. The
Speaker 1: vast desert gave the Arab revolt sanctuaries that the Ottomans
Speaker 1: could not seize and hold for any length of time.
Speaker 1: As noted by Lawrence, to make more war upon rebellion
Speaker 1: is messy and slow, like eating soup with a knife.
Speaker 1: I just love is writing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The Arabs possessed safe havens in the Vast Desert and
Speaker 1: therefore had the time to conduct a protracted struggle. They
Speaker 1: received critical assistance from the British Army, an army that
Speaker 1: posed serious threat to Palestine. Consequently, the Ottoman high command
Speaker 1: fell to could ill afford to spare additional troops to
Speaker 1: quell the Arab uprising. Foreign assistance and a distracted enemy
Speaker 1: proved a window of opportunity for the rebellious Arabs. So
Speaker 1: key part of this it's not just that we're threatening
Speaker 1: this whole area. We're threatening this train, and that diverts
Speaker 1: Ottoman troops, the Great Power War, the British army that
Speaker 1: hasn't succeeded in taking the Holy Land, but threatens it
Speaker 1: also blocks troops away, and so he is looking at
Speaker 1: Lawrence is looking at these very local, small unit actions
Speaker 1: in the as part of this grander struggle, which is exactly,
Speaker 1: by the way, what the Vietnamese are going to do, right.
Speaker 1: They don't have this vast desert, but they have Lao
Speaker 1: and Cambodia. They have these underground tunnels. This is their
Speaker 1: safe haven, right. And what the viet Cong are doing
Speaker 1: very much exists not just in concert with the greater
Speaker 1: struggle being waged by other Vietnamese elements like the NVA,
Speaker 1: this conventional army, but in the greater power struggle of
Speaker 1: the Cold War, all of these different conflicts that have
Speaker 1: an impact on who can and resources where and what
Speaker 1: can be sent ware right and how much things can
Speaker 1: be escalated.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Lawrence is the guy who was writing out this is
Speaker 1: how you think about a conflict that is so broad
Speaker 1: in scope it boggles your mind. Right, Yeah, that's where
Speaker 1: a lot of his genius comes in.
Speaker 2: No, that makes sense because yeah, is that called grand
Speaker 2: strategy or is that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Definitely this is grand strategy, right.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people are bad at that
Speaker 2: because we're good at thinking about We all think about tactics, right,
Speaker 2: and then we even sometimes think about strategic goals, but
Speaker 2: we're rarely thinking about how that one strategic goal is
Speaker 2: going to affect how a different political power is going
Speaker 2: to be impacted and what they're going to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the mind of a don't where it's the
Speaker 1: mind of you know, it's domino theory. It's almost he
Speaker 1: almost thinks about war the way an electrician has to think, right,
Speaker 1: where you can't just be thinking about where does this
Speaker 1: problem in this circuit? But how does all of this
Speaker 1: connect to this broader structure of like circuits and this
Speaker 1: broader flow of power? Right, He's thinking about the flow
Speaker 1: of power, right, very literal sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that engineering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is an he is an engineer of war.
Speaker 2: WHOA.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well this is what elevates Lawrence is understanding beyond
Speaker 1: being just another gorilla leader. These basic elements, this local
Speaker 1: gorilla force, pinning down an undermanned opponent, retreating to a
Speaker 1: safe haven backed by a foreign power its self, and
Speaker 1: separate conflict or conflicts with the occupier. This is how
Speaker 1: you would describe every great conflict of the last seventy
Speaker 1: five years, right like, this is what this is what
Speaker 1: everything is, right, this is there's a lot of Israel
Speaker 1: Palestine in here, right in this conflict between You've got
Speaker 1: Israel and the United States back and then you've got
Speaker 1: Iran supporting you know, his Bellah and hamas. You know
Speaker 1: these are This is the nature, the basic nature of
Speaker 1: all modern conflict. Really yeah, In other words, I just
Speaker 1: find this stuff cool. One of the many things that
Speaker 1: sets Lawrence apart from his colleagues is that he also
Speaker 1: has an understanding of his limitations. He knows, for example,
Speaker 1: I'm a white guy. I cannot be the leader of
Speaker 1: a grand erab revolt. That is not my place. But
Speaker 1: he also knows how to fin leaders and craft propaganda
Speaker 1: around them to turn them into heroes. And one of
Speaker 1: these heroes is a guy who's one of the coolest
Speaker 1: figures in this although he's also he's someone who does
Speaker 1: a lot of back dealing and wheeling and dealing, but
Speaker 1: Lawrence meets him in eighteen seven or in nineteen seventeen.
Speaker 1: In April, Aouda Abu Tai of the Howitat tribe, a
Speaker 1: passage from Schneider's book That I Loves gives you an
Speaker 1: idea of like what a fucking almost yeah a storybook
Speaker 1: character this you could hardly invent like a cooler sounding
Speaker 1: protagonist centuries earlier, the Howitat arrived from the Hajahs, and
Speaker 1: now their clans prided themselves on being true nomads in
Speaker 1: the Bedouin manner. Aouda was a tribal archetype, a heroic
Speaker 1: leader and warrior in the tradition of co chiefs, Geronimo,
Speaker 1: crazy horse, sitting bull. His generosity made him poor, as
Speaker 1: his growing legend made him ever richer in reputation. He
Speaker 1: had taken twenty eight wives during his adult life. His
Speaker 1: body bore the scars of thirteen wounds. He had seen
Speaker 1: most of his relations slain in countless raids. Aouda had
Speaker 1: slain seven five Arabs with his own hand. How many
Speaker 1: turks Outa did not tally hit them, They simply did
Speaker 1: not count His retinue, compromise, the fiercest men of the
Speaker 1: tribe fighting about sides Auta with relentless courage. I've killed
Speaker 1: seven personally in a hand to hand combat. It's killed
Speaker 1: seventy five of the men that I consider men for
Speaker 1: people who county, which is like, I mean, this guy
Speaker 1: is also a monster, but you know you can't like
Speaker 1: undeniably badass. Yeah, yeah. I think paragraphs like this help
Speaker 1: make it clear. Also why Lawrence finds the Bedouin way
Speaker 1: of war so much more intoxicating than say, the Western Front.
Speaker 1: If you, if you're a drafty in the Western Front,
Speaker 1: your combat leader's prior life experience was like competing with
Speaker 1: other rich kids to molest underclassmen and eton, right, Whereas
Speaker 1: if in this war, if you wind up under Auta,
Speaker 1: it's this guy from like, yeah, from like a fucking
Speaker 1: story book, right, Yeah, you know, a swashbuckling figure. And
Speaker 1: Lawrence is a romantic, right, he is still enthralled with
Speaker 1: medieval poems of knights and ladies. This is catnip to him, right,
Speaker 1: Like there was no chance him not being on these
Speaker 1: guys side once he starts to meet these people. Now,
Speaker 1: at the time they met Aouda had about five hundred fighters,
Speaker 1: half as many as he brought into the war. A
Speaker 1: desert pirate, he was frustrated trying to fight a conventional war.
Speaker 1: I woulda saw himself as an epic hero. Schneider notes,
Speaker 1: this guy, in addition to everything I've said, refers to
Speaker 1: himself exclusively in the third person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course he does.
Speaker 1: Of course he does. That's what you expect from a
Speaker 1: man who has killed dozens of men in hand to
Speaker 1: hand combat. Yeah.
Speaker 2: By the time he gets your tenth wound and your
Speaker 2: seventieth man, who actually counts, you start referring to the person,
Speaker 2: right right.
Speaker 1: Lawrence sat down with Faisal and Aouda and explained his
Speaker 1: new theories about how the war should be run. He
Speaker 1: built to a thrilling conclusion where he argued that rather
Speaker 1: than being out numbered and out gunned, the far more
Speaker 1: nobile Bedouins had a chance to attain superiority of men
Speaker 1: in materiel where it mattered. Quote, but think of it
Speaker 1: in regular terms. We are stronger than the Turks and
Speaker 1: transport machine guns, cars and high explosives. At the decisive point,
Speaker 1: we can deploy a highly mobile, lightly equipped, striking force
Speaker 1: of the smallest size and use it successively. It distributed
Speaker 1: points along the Turkish line to force them to strengthen
Speaker 1: their posts beyond the usual twenty men. This will be
Speaker 1: our shortcut to success. Right, This is this other recommendation.
Speaker 1: War battles always go to who has the numbers, who
Speaker 1: has the most men and guns. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: who has the most men and guns in total. It
Speaker 1: means where it matters, right, Yeah, I mean it matters
Speaker 1: right exactly. You don't fight when you're gonna lose, exactly.
Speaker 1: Lawrence assured auDA and Faisal that allowing the Ottomans to
Speaker 1: keep Medina and the railway would work because it would
Speaker 1: keep their forces bottled up trying to defend these things
Speaker 1: while the Arabs took everything else. Quote. His stupidity will
Speaker 1: be our ally, for he believes that his success depends
Speaker 1: on holding as many of the older provinces is possible.
Speaker 1: This pride in his imperial heritage will keep him in
Speaker 1: his present absurd position. All flanks and no front. Now,
Speaker 1: if you remember nothing else about the way empires think
Speaker 1: and function from these episodes, remember this, all flanks and
Speaker 1: no front. They can't really help themselves. That's just the
Speaker 1: way they are anyway, This is fascinating.
Speaker 2: I like this stuff, Like I wonder how much I
Speaker 2: wonder how much this still does or doesn't work, right,
Speaker 2: because you know the idea of like oh and then
Speaker 2: we disappear into the hills. I mean, I guess the
Speaker 2: Taliban did that to the US and Afghanistan, so I
Speaker 2: guess it is successfully.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it does work. It just people
Speaker 1: don't always get it right, you know, Like we're looking
Speaker 1: right now at what's happening on a strategic level. I'm
Speaker 1: not talking a moral level necessarily, but like in Gaza,
Speaker 1: you know, with what Hamas you know, has been doing,
Speaker 1: is this going to work out?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Was it a good strategy? Is this going to where
Speaker 1: we did? We simply don't know, like good strategy in
Speaker 1: terms of will they achieve ultimately their goals, that's unknown, right, Right,
Speaker 1: we can look at what the Taliban did and say
Speaker 1: they very successfully employed a version of this strategy and
Speaker 1: it worked for them, right, And we can look at
Speaker 1: we can look at to an extent Iran in Iraq, right,
Speaker 1: an Iranian influence in Iraq and the degree of political
Speaker 1: power that it's given them in the modern day state
Speaker 1: and like the damage that they did to the United
Speaker 1: States as another example of like, well, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: the you know, they were fairly successful, not to the
Speaker 1: same extent that Taliban was, but fairly successful with a
Speaker 1: strategy like this, right when you also.
Speaker 2: Get into the sort of fourth generational warfare thing, right,
Speaker 2: like those who control the hearts and minds of the
Speaker 2: people are the people who control the people. Like so
Speaker 2: it's like, which is why, I mean, it's why even
Speaker 2: the right wing wants to do mutual a It is
Speaker 2: like literally, whoever is feeding the people is if you
Speaker 2: feed people, that that's where their allegiance, right, yeah, the
Speaker 2: system that feeds them. And but it's interesting because in
Speaker 2: a situation like this, it's just home territory. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: the Ottomans haven't really I don't know enough about how
Speaker 2: the Ottomans were exerting power in that region.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, I mean the same way empires generally did.
Speaker 2: Right, mostly attractively with some posts.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and they're not great at it right again,
Speaker 1: this is the Ottomans are a failing empire, right Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: cool stuff.
Speaker 3: Yep, Magpie, do you have a new book that people
Speaker 3: can buy?
Speaker 2: I do have a new book that people can buy.
Speaker 2: It's called The Sapling Cage. And if you like amazing
Speaker 2: people running around who travel and do small scale conflict,
Speaker 2: you might like this story about a young trans girl
Speaker 2: who wants to go be a witch and learns how
Speaker 2: to spear fight, because in my book, which is learn
Speaker 2: how to spear fight before they learn how to use magic.
Speaker 1: And hey, maybe learn how to spear fight yourself. You know,
Speaker 1: it's very What the Greeks always said about it is
Speaker 1: that it kind of just comes naturally. There's very little
Speaker 1: training really that you need. Poke a man with a spear.
Speaker 1: It's surprisingly easy. That's what John Brown thought too.
Speaker 2: Or not goodbye, it didn't work out well for him.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, actually it didn't work out, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean strategic goals were successful.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I mean yes, all right, yeah, so anyway,
Speaker 1: byey make a Spear.
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