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Speaker 1: Also media, what's murdering my everyone's I'm Robert Evans, and

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Speaker 1: right now I'm thinking about murdering everyone because yesterday I

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Speaker 1: got stuck in traffic for Sophie six minutes.

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Speaker 2: I d have a giant truck. You shouldn't have to

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Speaker 2: get stuck in traffic.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what I thought. But every time you drive

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Speaker 1: it over other people, suddenly there's all sorts of crimes

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Speaker 1: that are being committed, you know, uh huh, well by

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Speaker 1: the people interest. I did have a lady back into

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Speaker 1: me yesterday and hit my front end, but like it

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Speaker 1: did no damage to Oh my god, I felt so bad.

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Speaker 1: She was like sobbing, and I was like, look, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to call the cops. Like your back

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Speaker 1: bumper is a little cracked, but like, if you don't

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Speaker 1: want to report this to insurance, I don't give a fuck.

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Speaker 2: Also because the insurance will take her side if she

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Speaker 2: decided it was your fault. There's even though she backed

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Speaker 2: into you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I don't think there was much of

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Speaker 1: a chance of that. Like I was twenty feet back.

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Speaker 1: She just pulled straight out of a parking space. Like

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Speaker 1: I saw her backing up. I gave her room. She

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Speaker 1: just she just just straight into me like it was like, what, lady,

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Speaker 1: you had a lot of chances to recognize that you

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Speaker 1: were making a mistake here, but I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: see somebody cry like I'm not gonna One of my

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Speaker 1: favorite things is whenever you see someone get upset because

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Speaker 1: they've hit you, and you get to be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm not calling calling anybody over this. Oh it's such

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Speaker 1: a good feeling.

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Speaker 2: But one time someone rear ended me and I was like, look,

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Speaker 2: I'm not calling everyone over like a twenty dollars centsor

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Speaker 2: in the back of my terrible car. And then the

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Speaker 2: kid it was a teenager. Her mom wrote me and

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Speaker 2: was like, great, can I get you to sign something

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Speaker 2: saying that you will not like sue or ask for

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Speaker 2: money later? And I was like no, if there's paperwork involved,

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Speaker 2: it goes O.

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Speaker 1: That's a real different situation, ma'am.

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Speaker 2: Like you want some more it's coming from insurance company.

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Speaker 3: Why is everybody so unchill late? Just calm down.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's lost their mind. You know who didn't lose their mind?

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Speaker 1: Unlike in the future when you are all listening to this.

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Speaker 1: Because I think America is about to be really chill

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Speaker 1: started next week. We are we are electing a new

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Speaker 1: president who, instead of Kamala or Trump, I think is

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Speaker 1: going to be a being of pure light who is

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Speaker 1: incapable of sin.

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Speaker 4: So and I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure in like

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Speaker 4: two years we will have murdered them, because a being

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Speaker 4: of pure light will not get very far as a

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Speaker 4: precedent in this country.

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Speaker 2: We all get to wear those hats that say, be

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Speaker 2: thou not afraid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh no, that part's going to be great. That's

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Speaker 1: the new maga. Is be thou not afraid?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Are you a Magan? No, I'm button. Yeah. Anyway, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about Lawrence of Arabia. All t e.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but Edward and Lawrence of Arabia. Is he particularly religious?

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Speaker 1: Not as an adult, as a kid, he is as

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Speaker 1: an adult, he's just kind of like vaguely spiritual, but

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Speaker 1: not like particularly religious. I think he's just kind of

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Speaker 1: too much of a thinker to be particularly devout.

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Speaker 2: And it makes the good sense when you're traveling around

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Speaker 2: in a part of the world that has a different

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Speaker 2: religion than what you were raised in.

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Speaker 1: He very clearly is not someone who's like, well, all

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Speaker 1: these people are going to hell, right, he does not

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Speaker 1: believe that at all. Yeah. Through Dome and his experience

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Speaker 1: traveling the Arab and Kurdish regions of the world, Lawrence

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Speaker 1: began to develop an understanding of the brutality of the

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Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire as well as it's incompetence.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: During the years leading up to the Big Dub Dub Uno,

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Speaker 1: there was a general that's World War one for all

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Speaker 1: of you people who hate me every time I do

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Speaker 1: this bit. There was a general sense among Arabs that

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Speaker 1: the Turks were at least their best bet at protection

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Speaker 1: from Western imperialism, right, that like, well, we don't really

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Speaker 1: like being ruled by the Ottomans, but we see what

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Speaker 1: you Westerners are doing to the rest of the world,

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Speaker 1: and we don't want that either. At Least these people

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Speaker 1: are Muslim, Right. The British had occupied Egypt in eighteen

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Speaker 1: eighty two and had fought a very bloody war there

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Speaker 1: against an enemy who was seen in the West not

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Speaker 1: dissimilarly from how Isis was depicted in the twenty first century.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of anger towards the West. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen oh eight, just before Lawrence began his explorations, the

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Speaker 1: Young Turks had taken the reins of the Ottoman government.

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Speaker 1: They'd turned the Caliph into a figurehead and ignited a

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Speaker 1: period of conflict over who would rule the dying empire.

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Speaker 1: The Young Turks were comparatively secular, they were Western aligned,

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Speaker 1: and this amped up the internal imperialism in the Ottoman

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Speaker 1: Empire substantially, because that is not how most of the

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Speaker 1: people in these like Arab and Kurdish and other regions

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Speaker 1: of the Empire really are. The Young Turks created the

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Speaker 1: Committee of Union and Progress to try and spread some

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Speaker 1: of their sexy new ideas among the people they ruled.

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Speaker 1: And the most significant idea they wanted to push was

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Speaker 1: called pan Turanism. And this is key to understanding Tayaprassip

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Speaker 1: Erdowin and the current Turkish government. It's genocide against the

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Speaker 1: Kurds in Syria and against in southern Turkey. This is

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Speaker 1: a very pan Turanism is a very important imperialist concept.

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Speaker 2: This is that runs all the way up to like Finland.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it's yeah, well, let's let me just explain it.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead. This is the Turkic version of the Pan

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Speaker 1: Germanic racial theories that would spread after World War One.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Kave Faroch, an expert on ancient Iran, describes Pan

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Speaker 1: Turanism as an ideology that aims at creating a Turkic

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Speaker 1: super state stretching from the Balkans in Europe eastwards across Turkey, Iran,

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Speaker 1: the Caucasus, Central Asia up to and including northwest China.

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Speaker 1: Now you will recognize, if you know much about the world,

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Speaker 1: that most of those areas are not Turkish. Yeah, Iran

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Speaker 1: not Turkish, Northwest China very much not Turkish. You know,

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Speaker 1: Central Asia not really Turkish, the Balkans not Turkish. Turkish

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Speaker 1: influence in some of those places, of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: go to Sarajevo, you'll see that, but not Turks. Now,

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Speaker 1: this very much a historical belief is justified by the

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Speaker 1: claim that all the real indigenous peoples of those regions

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Speaker 1: speak Turkish, or at least in their natural state spoke Turkish,

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Speaker 1: and thus should belong to the same state. Quote. Hungarian

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Speaker 1: Pan turanianist activists even go further. They have proposed that

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Speaker 1: the entire Eurasian land mass between Hungary and Norway and

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Speaker 1: Europe to Japan and Korea was once an empire known

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Speaker 1: as Turania. Apart from non scholastic websites, no linguist and

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Speaker 1: no linguistic anthropological and archaeological evidence for such an empire exists.

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Speaker 1: Pan Tirranean racialists and historians would beg to differ. They

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Speaker 1: are impervious to logical explanations even in the face of

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Speaker 1: heart evidence. I love this shit. Everything was Turks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in the un shit past, it was all Turks all

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Speaker 1: the way down. I just love that shit. What a

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Speaker 1: batshit Like, No, everything wasn't Turkish. I'm sorry it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: That's like everything was fucking It's like the Germans being like,

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Speaker 1: are you know, like the root of our the Aryan

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Speaker 1: race is these guys living in Nepal, you know, uh

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Speaker 1: and and and also the same as like our dreams

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Speaker 1: of you know, rebreeding this like Aryan perfect race. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they are Aryans in Nepal, but that's not what Aryan means,

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Speaker 1: you know. So this belief forms the core of a

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Speaker 1: lot of current fascist theory in Turkey and underpins, for example,

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Speaker 1: the genocidal acts of the Turkish state towards Kurdish rebels

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Speaker 1: in the south and across the border in Rajava. Now

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Speaker 1: all this a lot less settled in Lawrence's day it's

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Speaker 1: just kind of gearing up. But he is watching the

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Speaker 1: early stages of this thing that's going to end in genocide,

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Speaker 1: and he recognizes this has a bad end, right, anything

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Speaker 1: anything like this is going to not end well. And

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Speaker 1: as the Young Turks, one of the ways in which

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Speaker 1: they push these pan Tyrannian ideas is by disseminating anti

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Speaker 1: Arab propaganda. They are arguing at this point in time

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Speaker 1: that like, instead of you know, Arabs existing in all

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Speaker 1: these regions, like all of them, all of these different

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Speaker 1: peoples are descendants of like Genghis Khan, who is the

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Speaker 1: progenitor of the nation. This kisses people off, and there

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Speaker 1: are counter revolutions starting in nineteen oh nine, the year

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Speaker 1: before Lorenz goes on his first dig. Now that revolution

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Speaker 1: had been sparked by army officers and angry students at

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Speaker 1: a religious school, but the crackdown afterwards bred hatred among

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Speaker 1: locals of Armenian Christians who they saw as supporting the

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Speaker 1: hated Young Turk government. Thirty thousand of these Christians were

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Speaker 1: butchered and massacres that would prove an ugly prelude to

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Speaker 1: the looming genocide. Lawrence arrived in the wake of all

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Speaker 1: this chaos, and while he was living in Ottoman territory

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eleven, Italy invaded and conquered Libya. All of

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Speaker 1: this provoked a surge in Arab nationalism, which we should

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Speaker 1: rightly see as not disconnected from the swells of nationalism

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Speaker 1: across the Austro Hungarian Empire and elsewhere in Europe. There's

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Speaker 1: a direct line between this Arab revolt that's going to

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Speaker 1: brew and like Serbian nationalism, right these are all part

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Speaker 1: of like a broader cultural movement around the world. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are two different but not entirely contradictory explanations for

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Speaker 1: what motivated Lawrence ultimately to support an Arab uprising against

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Speaker 1: the Ottomans. The most sympathetic reason and the one that

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Speaker 1: paints him in the best light, is related to his

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Speaker 1: relationship with Dome, Lawrence's friend later in life. I. M.

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Speaker 1: Forster argues that Lawrence was intimate and passionately devoted to Doome,

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Speaker 1: although they never consummated the relationship, and given lawrence dide

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Speaker 1: of virgin he likely had no idea to do so.

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Speaker 1: Satine Who's Satin, whose biography of young Lawrence gives the

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Speaker 1: best texture on the Man's Life describes the relationship as

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Speaker 1: something intense but fundamentally unknowable to people reading today. However,

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Speaker 1: he cites with clear textual evidence that, however we define

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Speaker 1: this relationship, it inspired Lawrence's actions during World War One.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen nineteen, Lawrence admitted in a letter to a

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Speaker 1: friend that he had joined the Arab revolt because I

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Speaker 1: liked a particular Arab very much, and I thought that

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Speaker 1: freedom for the race would be an acceptable present. And

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Speaker 1: that is both profoundly orientalist and also so romantic. I know,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to free your people because like I like you,

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Speaker 1: Like that's such a not even romantic. That's so because

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Speaker 1: like I don't think this was a romantic relationship. That's

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Speaker 1: so sweet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one is like I also love Okay. It reminds

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Speaker 2: me a little bit about how okay, so Sam and

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Speaker 2: frodok because I have to bring one of the rings

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Speaker 2: into this somehow. I don't have a relationship that when

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Speaker 2: Tolkien talks about like Tlkien talks about it, and it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's the relationship between brothers in arms and war, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And it's the kind of relationship that now that like

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Speaker 2: heterosexuality and homosexuality are much more like defined doesn't translate

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Speaker 2: to anything, Like the modern world has no way of

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Speaker 2: understanding this relationship you're describing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just.

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Speaker 2: Interesting because romantic is probably the closest word. But there's

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Speaker 2: his connotations that aren't meant.

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Speaker 1: That aren't meant, and that like make this seem like,

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Speaker 1: for one thing is something like much more problematic than

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Speaker 1: I think it was, right and man, it is just

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Speaker 1: like yeah the whole Like, I like this guy so much,

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Speaker 1: I am going to like free his people from imperial bondage.

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Speaker 1: Like personally is kind of pretty pretty cool, know.

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Speaker 2: With no background as a soldier as far as id with.

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Speaker 1: No military background at this point, just the experience of

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Speaker 1: like makeing chain mail and learning how to sword fight

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Speaker 1: with the sprints. Yeah. Now, in a more artful bit

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Speaker 1: of writing, Lawrence Laurence, this is I want to quote

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Speaker 1: from a poem that Lawrence writes in Seven Pillars of Islam,

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Speaker 1: which Satin argues is a poem that he is. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't explicitly say this is a poem about Dome, but

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Speaker 1: Satin argues this is a poem written for Dome after

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Speaker 1: Dome's death. Quote, I love you, I loved you, so

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Speaker 1: I drew these tides of men into my hands and

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Speaker 1: wrote my will across the sky in stars.

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Speaker 2: Damn Jesus.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a line that's bars right there.

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Speaker 2: That is beyond romance, like pale.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wrote my will across the sky and stars.

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Speaker 1: He's just a good writer, you know. Yeah. So in

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Speaker 1: this conception, if we take this is the reason why

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Speaker 1: Lawrence ultimately back the air revolt, and I will I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you right now, it can't be all of why, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are less romantic reasons that his country, Great Britain,

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Speaker 1: gets involved. You know. Obviously they're not doing it because

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Speaker 1: some random British dude like an Arab kid.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: As I noted last episode, the Germans had started making

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Speaker 1: inroads with the Ottomans after the British pulled back their

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Speaker 1: support of the Sultan zik Kaiser, who had thrown away

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Speaker 1: Germany's alliance with Russia because he was a dumb shit,

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Speaker 1: needed the Ottomans because once he's like fuck you Russia,

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Speaker 1: he also realizes like, oh my god, there's no one

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Speaker 1: watching our ASTs, right, so we kind of have to

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Speaker 1: have the Ottomans now, right, And he also the Kaiser's

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Speaker 1: convinced himself that well, if I get the Sultan in

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Speaker 1: my back pocket, if we ever have a big fight

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Speaker 1: with Great Britain, I can incite a jihad against the

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Speaker 1: British Empire in India and that'll solve all my British

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Speaker 1: people problems.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all Muslims are definitely in power in India.

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Speaker 1: Yes, always, yes, yes, yes, that is a clear fact

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Speaker 1: that you know. I mean, if you're the Kaiser, I

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Speaker 1: guess I'm just kind of proud he knows enough about

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Speaker 1: India to know there are Muslims there. Yes, that's more

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Speaker 1: knowledge than I would have credited kaiserville Elm with. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: a further complication here was the recent construction of the

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Speaker 1: j Jas railway, which connected the Arab Peninsula to the

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Speaker 1: rest of modern day Saudi Arabia. This is a railway

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Speaker 1: that goes from like, you know, the the Ottoman heartland

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Speaker 1: and the Arab world all the way down through what

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Speaker 1: is modern day Saudi Arabia to like Omen and Yemen.

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Speaker 1: I think, right, like that's the Hjas is this massive

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Speaker 1: desert peninsula, right and this is you know, the Ottomans.

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Speaker 1: Once that Great Britain had gotten the sus Canal going.

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Speaker 1: The Ottomans had become dependent on Great Britain to move

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Speaker 1: goods to a lot of parts of the world, and

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Speaker 1: this railway was not only supposed to connect a lot

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Speaker 1: of these backwaters of the Empire, these tiny, little off

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Speaker 1: the map places that were really completely separate from the

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Speaker 1: rest of the world. It was also supposed to be

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Speaker 1: this like economic lifeline to the Empire that reduced their

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Speaker 1: dependence on Great Britain. The railway was so crucial not

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Speaker 1: just to the Ottomans, but in a lot of eyes

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Speaker 1: to the to Islam right that it had been funded

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Speaker 1: by do nations from Muslims all over the world, including

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Speaker 1: a huge number of Indian Muslims. And the fact that

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Speaker 1: so many Indian Muslims had donated to fund the Jjas

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Speaker 1: Railway was seen by a lot of like British observers

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Speaker 1: as evidence that like, oh, we really do need to

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Speaker 1: be worried that the caliph could spark a rebellion right now.

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Speaker 1: This ties back to Lawrence because during the years he

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Speaker 1: was digging, a realization had spread among the brass back

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Speaker 1: home in England that we might, you know's it's becoming

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Speaker 1: increasingly likely that we're going to have to scrap with

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Speaker 1: the Germans, and if that's the case, we probably have

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Speaker 1: to have a plan to deal with the Turks. Now,

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Speaker 1: Lord Kitchener, who is like the king shit of the

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Speaker 1: British military, you know, in the period leading up to

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Speaker 1: in the early stages of World War One, is the guy,

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Speaker 1: the man in power in the British military establishment who

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Speaker 1: is first like, hey, I am backing, Like I am

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Speaker 1: officially backing that we want to incite an air We're

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Speaker 1: looking into the possibility of inciting an Arab rebellion in Syria, right,

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Speaker 1: and support it enough to create a friendly state that

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Speaker 1: will fracture Ottoman power. Right Kitchener is like, he's not

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Speaker 1: the guy who originates the idea, but he's the first

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Speaker 1: guy in power who's like, I think we should explore

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Speaker 1: this as a potential official like policy move, Like.

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Speaker 2: Is this the first time? Because this is this is

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Speaker 2: like the US's playbook. Right, is you back and uprising

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Speaker 2: in order to create a friendly state to the US?

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Speaker 2: Is this like are their previous examples?

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, from the British right. I don't the US

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Speaker 1: is doing much of this. I mean it done. You know,

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Speaker 1: you could look at some aspects of our history. But

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Speaker 1: like we get it either way from the Brits, right,

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Speaker 1: they do this in Africa, they do this all over the.

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Speaker 2: Place, So it's an existing playbook.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is definitely an existing playbook. Right. This

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Speaker 1: is always how the British Empire's playbook is always, you know,

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Speaker 1: although it's usually a bit different because like this is

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Speaker 1: we are trying to disrupt an enemy by doing this.

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Speaker 1: Usually it's more we have this area we control that

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Speaker 1: we are native too, and we're going to find a

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Speaker 1: warrior people and we're going to both back them but

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Speaker 1: also kind of incite conflicts between them and other peoples

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Speaker 1: in order to take the pressure off of us.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: But you can see how like that playbook, you can

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Speaker 1: you can translate that directly to what's being done here

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Speaker 1: with the elements, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, everyone likes doing that. The Tzar did that with

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Speaker 2: the cosmics.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's a very old old playbook.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So in September of nineteen thirteen, the coming war between

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Speaker 1: European powers was both something that like everyone knew it

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Speaker 1: was happening, right that there was some sort of general

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Speaker 1: European conflict probably and also nobody really expected it to

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Speaker 1: happen right, not when it happened right. It's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where it's like, well, this will happen one day,

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Speaker 1: but probably not tomorrow, until eventually tomorrow comes.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: This is impression for when this comes out.

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Speaker 1: Pressure for any number of things. Now, Kitchener, being a

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Speaker 1: bit smarter than a lot of people in the British Empire,

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Speaker 1: is not just like, well, we'll probably have a war

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Speaker 1: one of these days, but not tomorrow. Kitchener's it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: he's probably ready, Like, if we're going to wind up

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Speaker 1: fighting the Germans and the Ottomans, we probably have a

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Speaker 1: plan for how to like incite this rebellion that might

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Speaker 1: get the Ottomans, you know, off of our fucking backs.

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Speaker 1: So he sends operatives to Palestine to gather information on

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Speaker 1: Ottoman military facilities there. Now, since the Ottomans weren't just

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Speaker 1: about to okay, like spy of bes, oh, you want

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Speaker 1: to send some spies the Holy that absolutely, it was

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Speaker 1: suggested that they send some local boys, some local like

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Speaker 1: English boys who were already in the Ottoman Empire playing

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Speaker 1: at archaeology, right, And that is how Te Lawrence and

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Speaker 1: his friend Ced L. Wooley find themselves called upon to

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Speaker 1: act as spies for the mother country. Lawrence was described

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Speaker 1: by his mentor to the Shell organization created to execute

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Speaker 1: this expedition as someone who quote gets on very well

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Speaker 1: with the natives. He has I think more the instincts

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Speaker 1: of an explorer, but is very shy. Right, that's like

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Speaker 1: the the what gets him this job. As like, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's kind of doing some James Bond shit. You know

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Speaker 1: six am I five doesn't exist then, but like that,

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Speaker 1: that's very much what he's doing here, right, He's being

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Speaker 1: brought in by the state to help provide cover to

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Speaker 1: an espionage operation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, he and Woolley insist that Dome be hired as

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Speaker 1: a photographer and general assistant to the team. They are

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Speaker 1: carrying out a real historical survey, but that survey is

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Speaker 1: also cover to this group of actual spies that are

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Speaker 1: being sent like as assistants, but are there to do

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Speaker 1: their actual like spy work. Right. Lawrence is aware of this,

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Speaker 1: and he writes back to his mom, we are obviously

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Speaker 1: meant as red herrings. Now the trips.

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Speaker 2: Could trust the male so well back then, of course

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Speaker 2: nobody would look in the mail. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now the trip was mostly uneventful for our purposes, save

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Speaker 1: that it marks the first time Lawrence found himself traveling

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Speaker 1: the Sinai and thinking about the military value of different

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Speaker 1: towns and forts along the way. One morning, he and

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Speaker 1: Woolley were late meeting up with their baggage men because

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Speaker 1: they were hunting a gazelle. Well, their camels, which had

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Speaker 1: bolted the night before, were found, and the Egyptian police

380
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Speaker 1: were contacted in a panic. Lawrence wrote home that quote.

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Speaker 1: The result was wild telephoning all over the frontier. The

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Speaker 1: Turks were wandering over their hills. About forty Arabs were

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Speaker 1: arrested and brought in his hostages for our reappearance. And

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Speaker 1: meanwhile we were sitting quietly wondering where in the world

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Speaker 1: our tents had got to. Now. To anyone else, this

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Speaker 1: would just be kind of like a funny moment, But Lawrence,

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Speaker 1: being very perceptive, takes something crucial from the experience. He writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: it shows how easily it is in an absolutely deserted

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Speaker 1: country to defy a government. And this is going to

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Speaker 1: lead him to one of the most important realizations of

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Speaker 1: the last one hundred and fifty years. After the expedition,

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Speaker 1: Lawrence and Woolly went back to their dig. Woolly left

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Speaker 1: around June, but as was usual, Lawrence stayed. He got

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Speaker 1: regular pushes to go back home, but in the last

395
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Speaker 1: eighteen months had spent just three weeks in England. Daoum

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Speaker 1: and another local friend of his, Hamoodi, had by this

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Speaker 1: point heard stories from Lawrence about and they'd repeatedly asked, hey,

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Speaker 1: can we would like to see You've spent so much

399
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Speaker 1: time in our home, we would like to see England, right,

400
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Speaker 1: And eventually, in nineteen thirteen, in the last summer before

401
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Speaker 1: the world went mad, Lawrence obliged them. Now they stayed

402
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Speaker 1: about ten days. He brings these two Arab friends of his,

403
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Speaker 1: and they stayed for ten days in Oxford. They are

404
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Speaker 1: mostly treated as like curiosities. They give like speeches and

405
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Speaker 1: stuff in public where people get to question them about

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Speaker 1: like their lives and their home. And for the most part,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's kind of interesting that this happened,

408
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Speaker 1: but it's not super relevant to like our question, you know,

409
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Speaker 1: where do we put this guy morally? There is one

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00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,199
Speaker 1: anecdote here that I think is worth reciting to you,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm going to quote again from Anthony Satin's

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Speaker 1: book The Young te Lawrence, where he writes about a

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Speaker 1: story that Hamoodi told of this visit after Lawrence's death. Quote,

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Speaker 1: many wish to photograph us Hamoodi and Dome as we

415
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 1: sat with him, Lawrence in our customary clothes, And after

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Speaker 1: they took a picture, they would come and speak to him,

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Speaker 1: and always he said no, no.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 1: One day I asked why he was always saying no, no,

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Speaker 1: and he laughed and said, I will tell you. These

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Speaker 1: people wish to give you money, but for me you

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Speaker 1: would now be rich. Don't call yourself my friend. Hamoudi

423
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Speaker 1: shouted and say thus calmly, that you kept me from riches.

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Speaker 1: It was a rare moment of cultural division between them.

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Speaker 1: It also showed that the Syrians understood the wealth and

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Speaker 1: privilege of their young friend. Hamodi remembered that Lawrence had

427
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Speaker 1: laughed at his anger, and the more he laughed, the

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Speaker 1: angrier Hamoudi became. Then Lawrence said, yes, you might have

429
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Speaker 1: been rich, richer than any in Jurabulus. And I what

430
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Speaker 1: should I have been? I should have been the showman

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Speaker 1: of two monkeys. And suddenly Hamoudi admitted all my anger

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Speaker 1: died down within me.

433
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: WHOA yeah, yeah, so he's thinking about what he's doing.

434
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: Yes, he is attempting to not that he does it perfectly,

435
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 1: but he is trying to think ethically about the complexity

436
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: and the class dynamics and wealth dynamics and disparity of

437
00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: his relationship with these guys.

438
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:01,959
Speaker 2: Fascinat because I was already thinking about how it's like, well,

439
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 2: when he goes there, they're not like putting him in

440
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: a on stage and being like, no, tell us about

441
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 2: the weird, racky, cold place you're from.

442
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: You know, and that does happen here, and he's like

443
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: conscious and he's like, I don't want to turn this

444
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: into me prostituting these boys for orientalist reasons, right, yeah,

445
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: that seems bad to me.

446
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: Right, And on the other hand, it probably could have been, like.

447
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 1: He could have talked this out with them, right, There

448
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 1: is some of that paternalism here, you know.

449
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 2: Right totally, because they could have been like, yeah, no,

450
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: let's get a rich fuck it.

451
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. They could have made that decision. And

452
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 1: he again, he's definitely paternalistic. He's older than them. You know,

453
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: this isn't unproblematic perfectly, but I also it's interesting to

454
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: me that he is really trying to think about this

455
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: in an ethical sense that somewhat comports with our modern ethics.

456
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

457
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: You know what doesn't comport with our modern ethics, Margaret.

458
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 2: Is it h our ads?

459
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: They sure don't. But you know what I like being

460
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: able to pay my mortgage. Me too.

461
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll just get to talk about it and then

462
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: they make decisions together.

463
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: That's right, let's make some decisions together. Let's you and

464
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: me prostitute ourselves. Excellent.

465
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds great.

466
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 1: That sounds great, and we're back. So when the war

467
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: broke out in August of nineteen fourteen, the time of

468
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: leisurely afternoons painting and reading with Dome were over. Based

469
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: on his work in Palestine the previous year, Lawrence was

470
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: offered a commission in the Army Intelligence Corps as a

471
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: second lieutenant. This landed Lawrence, who's now in kind of

472
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: like his mid to late twenties in Cairo, which is

473
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: where the movie begins to show us his story. Right,

474
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: this is where the nineteen sixty two film starts. I

475
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: think it's valuable that we have we've gone a little

476
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: bit back there by the time the fighting started. Kitchener's

477
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: interest in sparking an aerbravolt only deepened, and he'd had

478
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: several clandestine conversations with Prince Houssein ibn Ali, the Arab

479
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: nobleman charged with protecting the holy cities of Mecca and Medina.

480
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: Kitchener and his advisors believe that Prince Hussain could be

481
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,959
Speaker 1: used to sever much of the Arab world from the

482
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: Ottomans and prevent them from functioning as an ally to Germany. Now,

483
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: Prince Husain was not the only potential game in town

484
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: for the Brits. Kitchener and his allies supported him as

485
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: the new Khaliph, while others backed a young chieftain from

486
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: Riad named Abdullah Aziz Aziz ibn Saud. Now did you

487
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: think about that last name, Saud for ahent as to

488
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: what his family's doing today? Yeah, well, yeah, they're doing

489
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: quite well. Some of the evilest people on planet Earth.

490
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: And Abdulla Ziz ibn Saud sucks ass too. Now so

491
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: does Prince Houssein. Both of these guys are huge dix

492
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: and a big part of why this Arab revolt doesn't

493
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: end in a better place for the Arab world. Know,

494
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: I would say overwhelmingly the blame is on the Ottomans

495
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: and the European powers. But a lot of it comes

496
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: down to the fact that the local leaders, you know,

497
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: the Arab leaders of this revolt are also assholes, right,

498
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: and that plays a role in the structures that get

499
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: set up, you know, at the end of this. All right, Yeah, Now,

500
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: Saud is Wahabi, right, which isn't a Puritan strain of

501
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: Islam that is also strongly anti idolatry. And Prince Hussein

502
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: is a guy. He is a real asshole about it.

503
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 1: He is super anti woman. He is a very strict

504
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: He's also a Puritan, right, He's the guy who like

505
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: bans drinking in Mecca, you know. But he is also

506
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: he's not a Wahabbist because the Wahabbies they're anti idolatry,

507
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: and Prince Hussein kind of wants to be worshiped almost

508
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: as much as Allah, right, like, and so he doesn't

509
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: like the anti idolatry stuff about Wahabism.

510
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: He's like, humility, humility is no good.

511
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's not my bag. I am a prince. Now,

512
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: the outbreak of World War One has been a disaster

513
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: for Mecca, right, which is tourism would be like kind

514
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 1: of the wrong way of saying. But it's like religious pilgrimage, right,

515
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: is like what the city does, that's where its money

516
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: comes from. People aren't doing as much of that. After

517
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: the whole war decides like what if we take all

518
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: these young men who were, you know, around to go

519
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: on pilgrimages to Mecca and the like, and instead we

520
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: feed them to each other's machine guns, you know, and

521
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: honestly a great this is a great time to be

522
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: a machine gun, bad time to be a young man.

523
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: So traffic to Mecca collapses and the economy follows with it.

524
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote from James Barr's book here.

525
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: Meccans were reduced to selling their furniture and the ornately

526
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: carved wooden doors and fretwork windows of their houses for

527
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: firewood to feed themselves. These screens shielded their women folk

528
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 1: indoors from prying eyes. It was a deeply humiliating resort

529
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: to have to take.

530
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: Well.

531
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Prince Hussain blames the suffering and the war

532
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: itself on the secular modernizing of the Ottomans, which he

533
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: says violated the Koran by, for instance, allowing women to

534
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: work in the post office A major reason why Hussein

535
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,479
Speaker 1: gets on board with being like the figurehead of an

536
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: Arab revolt against the Ottomans is he goes to Constantinople

537
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: a couple of years back and he sees women working

538
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: at the post office and he is it loses his mind.

539
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: He absolutely goes fucking batshit over like ladies in the

540
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: post office. This guy is the anti wokest of the

541
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: anti wokes. He describes lady post office workers as an

542
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: evil that will greatly injure us if it increases. Like

543
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: alost debate, why did this terrible war happen? Why are

544
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: we slaughtering each other? It's lady post office workers. He's

545
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: so out of his mind the words male man, mail man,

546
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: Oh god, damn it. Yeah, Prince Husain real piece of

547
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: shit in this story.

548
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: Okay, debate, Nce is gonna end up backing anyway.

549
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: This is this is who. This is who Lawrence in

550
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: England end up backing, although this is not who Lawrence

551
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: personally backs. Right, Whussain is the father of the guy

552
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: that Lawrence is really sees as being the great leader. Right,

553
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: So debate rages within sort of the British intelligence and

554
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: military establishment. It's very similar to how like during the

555
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: Syrian Civil War, you had like the US kind of

556
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: military intelligence back the Kurds, and you had like the

557
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: CIA back these kind of alliances of like rebel groups.

558
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: Well you have within you know, the military and the

559
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: intelligence arms of kind of the British state are backing

560
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: to Dit like Saud or Hussein, right, And there's a

561
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: lot of argument over like who is better, and this

562
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: is It's also worth noting that when we're parsing out

563
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: the morality of this, what what Great Britain is doing

564
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: here playing with these people's lives is evil. What Prince

565
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: Hussein is doing here try to get absolute power, make

566
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: himself into a khaliph is evil.

567
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: Right.

568
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: The other Arabs, by the way, he wants to specifically

569
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: be king of this massive greater Arab state and like

570
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: wants to be ruling Iraq and Syria because that's prestigious

571
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: and the Hajahs is a backwater people. The Arabs in

572
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: Iraq and Syria don't want this guy ruling them, you know,

573
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: they don't like him more than they like the Ottomans

574
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: in some cases a lot less.

575
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: Right.

576
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: But also when we're talking about like the morality of this,

577
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, what Great Britain is doing here is fucked up.

578
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: The Ottomans are actively doing a genocide. They are doing

579
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: the Armenian genocide in this period of time. So there's

580
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: not like a there's not like a ah. These are

581
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: the this is the shining bright side of this conflict.

582
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: To back, these guys were the real heroes here. Everyone's

583
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: an imperialist and everyone's a piece of shit.

584
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: You know.

585
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: Lawrence might have the most noble you know, kind of

586
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: alongside a lot of the like individual dudes who are

587
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: just like fighting because like it seems like the Ottomans suck.

588
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: But of the people with like power in this he's

589
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: at least less objectionable than some. So he spends the

590
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: first two years of his time as an intelligence agent

591
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: from fourteen to sixteen in Egypt in Cairo, writing intelligent

592
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: summaries from hundreds of sources across the region. Right other

593
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: people are bringing in data, he is like turning it

594
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: into briefings and sending it out right. And he becomes

595
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: as a result of this duty. He's a guy who

596
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: studies constantly. He's fascinated in the culture of the region,

597
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: and he becomes acquainted with the history of the Bedouins.

598
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: These are the nomadic peoples in the Hisjahs in this

599
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: in the Arab Peninsula, and they are primarily the way

600
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: everyone sees them, raiders and bandits, right. They fight a

601
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: lot within each other. They are a clannish tribal people,

602
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: and they make a lot of their living from like banditry, you.

603
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: Know, comparable to the Kurds at the time.

604
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: Maybe, Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. Yeah, yeah, I

605
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: mean you could definitely draw that in some ways, right,

606
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: And like, you know, you've got some of these guys

607
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: like Prince Hussein who have started to urban eye, but

608
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: you also have these people who like they very much

609
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: do live this nomadic existence except for the fact that

610
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: they have guns, not different from how they would have

611
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: lived seven hundred years ago, and like Muhammad was alive, right,

612
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: So the fact that Lawrence is starting to understand these

613
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,239
Speaker 1: people and study them was going to prove crucial to

614
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: what comes next. But at the time, he's really frustrated

615
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: that he's like forced to just sit on his ass

616
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,239
Speaker 1: and do nothing. In May of nineteen fifteen, less than

617
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: one year into the war, his brother Frank had been

618
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: killed in France. Four months later, his youngest son Will

619
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: was shot down and perished.

620
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: Youngest brother.

621
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, youngest brother Will was shot down in Paris. So

622
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: he loses two brothers in the first two years of

623
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: the war. While he's sitting in this office in Cairo

624
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: being bored, and he is racked with survivor's guilt over this.

625
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: He and his brothers had been very close. In letters

626
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: home to his mother, he veered between shows of strength

627
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: in a time of such fearful stress in our country,

628
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: it is one's duty to watch every to watch very

629
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: carefully lest one of the weaker ones be offended. But

630
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: he also complained to her, we do nothing here except

631
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: sit and think out harassing schemes of Arabian policy. My

632
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: hair is getting very thin and gray. I'm going to

633
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: be in Cairo till I die. You know, he's an

634
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: emotional guy. He's going through a lot here. This is

635
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: a complex time to him, and his grief is compounded

636
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: by fury at the failed Allied invasion of Gallipoli, masterminded

637
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: by friend of the Pod Winston Churchill. This was a

638
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: vast invasion by sea of the Ottoman coast that ended

639
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: in just just the worst fuck up ever. Right, one

640
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: of the great disasters in military history, you know, pick, yeah,

641
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: just a calamitous fuck up. Now, Lawrence writes a report

642
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: on precisely why the campaign, which he termed a disgrace failed.

643
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: It was buried this report of his to protect the

644
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: people who'd planned it. Right, we can't have Winston Churchill

645
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: getting criticized, heres h. And it's a very good James

646
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: Schneider writes in his book Guerrilla Leader. He discovered then

647
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: the reality in modern war that the civilian population will

648
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: always suffer when a European power pursues its national interest

649
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: without regard to the culture and political aspirations of the

650
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: native populace. Right. And so this is kind of like

651
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: he makes a he makes a decision here that to

652
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: be different, that like, we have to be different, because

653
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: like if we're not, if we make these decisions but

654
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 1: purely on what we know and think of war without

655
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: any kind of like uh uh, you know, without any

656
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: sort of openness to the realities on the ground, we

657
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: wind up walking into disasters. Right. He is trying to

658
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: preach against Vietnam syndrome, right where you just like stumbling, well,

659
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: we're America, we know how to fight a war. This

660
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: is how you do it. I don't need to know

661
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: shit about this country, right, I'll just fight this the

662
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: way I fight every war. Ops turns out it's a

663
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: different part of the world that doesn't work here, you know.

664
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it wasn't a big thing, is that when

665
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: the Brits were trying to fight in the Ottoman Empire,

666
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: like because there just wasn't transportation and all this thing,

667
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 2: like the modern method of moving all of the arms

668
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: and all those things just like fell apart.

669
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean a lot of its supply issues

670
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: and stuff. But this was also stuff. If there had

671
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: been more knowledge of the realities of the geography of

672
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: the era, they wouldn't have tried it. Right. With more

673
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: knowledge and less arrogance, you would just like, no, we

674
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: can't do this, we don't have the capacity.

675
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

676
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: On June tenth, nineteen sixteen, Prince Hussein had been goaded

677
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: sufficiently into action that he used a small force of

678
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: fighters to lay siege the Turkish garrison at Mecca. They

679
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 1: took it after three days, but the rebellion lost steam

680
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: after that. Medina did not fall, and it was clear

681
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: to anyone with eyes that the Ottomans would soon exact

682
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: a punishment because their garrison and Medina is isolated, but

683
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: they've got this train that can get stuff down there,

684
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 1: so they had the ability. Eventually, we'll get enough guys

685
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: there that will crack down on this little rebellion. Now,

686
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: much of the internal debate in this period among the

687
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: British revolved around whether or not we should send our

688
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: own troops in to stop the Ottomans from like crushing

689
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: this rebellion, specifically from capturing a place called Rabigue, which

690
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: contained valuable wells that would allow resupply for an attack

691
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: on Mecca. The problem was twofold number one. If the

692
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 1: British sent in Christian soldiers, white guys, right, that would

693
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: infuriate soldiers because like Christians are not supposed to be

694
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: in the Holy Land, you know, and that would dry

695
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: up support for the rebellion if it's seen as like, oh,

696
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: this is really just a British thing, Oh, the British

697
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: are in this, you know, Like maybe people aren't going

698
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: to be willing to die if they're like, oh, so

699
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: we're just we're just fighting to become slaves of the

700
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: British Empire. Well I don't like that any better, right,

701
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: But at the same token, the British have this option.

702
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: We have all these Muslim soldiers right from Indie, India.

703
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: We could send in with modern guns and that they

704
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: would probably make a difference. But if we send in

705
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: Muslim soldiers, no one's going to believe that Prince Hussein

706
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: is backed by us. And that's also necessary because otherwise

707
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: why would you take him seriously if he doesn't have

708
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: the backing of a great power. Right, So it's just

709
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: like catch twenty two situation, you know of, like we

710
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: can't send in white guys, but nobody takes it as

711
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: seriously unless they see some white guys. And Lawrence is

712
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: on the side of arguing that we absolutely cannot send

713
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: in British soldiers, right, and he argues interestingly, he takes

714
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: the stance that not only should we not send in

715
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: British soldiers, they're not needed. The Bedouins can on their

716
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: own defeat the Ottomans in Hajas, so long as we

717
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: arm them properly. Right. His attitude is, we don't need

718
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: to send in troops. They can handle this. They just

719
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: need guns.

720
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

721
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: Now he is also terrified. A big motivation for Lawrence

722
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: is that the French are poking around this situation. They

723
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 1: keep being like, oh, you guys don't want to send

724
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: in troops. We got troops, we can send in troops,

725
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: and then ends in maybe maybe's the Arab peninsula is

726
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: a French peninsula, you know, perhaps we wind up with

727
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: Siria I A. Yeah, like that is that is what

728
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: they're The French wants Syria in particular, right like they

729
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: see this as like natural French territory, Syria.

730
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: Everywhere's natural French to everywhere is natural French territory.

731
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, right now, Lawrence, he's not just he's not just

732
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: doesn't like this because the British and the French don't

733
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: like each other traditionally. He is a man of the world,

734
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: and he is aware that the French when they took

735
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 1: Algeria immediately carried out a hideously brutal genocide. And he's like, well,

736
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: if they take Syria, they're going to do another genocide, right,

737
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: Like that's just how the French be. He argued in

738
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: letters meant to be read by other British officers that

739
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: supporting Prince Husain as the new caliph also would effectively

740
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: neuter Islam as a threat to the empire. Right, so

741
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: there's a very imperialist slight to this too. Although the

742
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: question is does he believe that, like, ah, we can

743
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: neuter Islam as a threat to our ambitions in India

744
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: or does he know that saying that will get people

745
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: to back his play back home.

746
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: Because the hardest things when you look at history.

747
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, especially since Lawrence lies to his Arab allies,

748
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: and he lies to his British masters. He lies constantly

749
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: to them, So it is not he He is, you know,

750
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: deceitful to some of these Arabs that he claims to

751
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: care about, and he is deeply deceitful to all of

752
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: his superior officers. So the idea that he would just

753
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: be like, oh yeah, this will stop Islam from overthrowing

754
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, the Indian subcontinent or whatever. Like, if he

755
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: thought that lie would work, he would say it. You know,

756
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: it's not necessary. It could be instead of Orientalism, just

757
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: him trying to manipulate his bosses, right, who he knows

758
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: are oriental who he knows are orientalists?

759
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 4: Right?

760
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, Lawrence kind of makes a name for himself

761
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: in all of these arguments, and he's also because of

762
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: some I'm not going to get into all of the

763
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: politicking within the British military establishment, but he winds up

764
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: getting to go along with like his boss, to the

765
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: Hjaws in order to meet some of these people because

766
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: the other guy who like should have gone in his

767
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: place was too controversial as a result of all these

768
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: arguments over who to back and whether or not to

769
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: send troops. So Lawrence gets to go. This is his

770
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: first time kind of going to the Jjaws, and over

771
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: the course of ten days he meets in befriends the

772
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: prince's son, Faisal Faisal Hussein, and Faisal is the guy,

773
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: He's the guy that you see in the movie, and

774
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: he's the guy that, like Lawrence, is actually going to

775
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: back as the leader of this future Arab state that

776
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: he wants to incite to rebellion and independence. Faisal and

777
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: him get along so well that Faisal kind of insists

778
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: that Lawrence become his appointed liaison to the British army,

779
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: and Lawrence, for his part, becomes convinced that Faisal is

780
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: the future of the revolt, writing back that Faisal has

781
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: quote leadership, not intellect, nor judgment, nor political wisdom, but

782
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: the flame of enthusiasm that would set the desert on fire.

783
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: Thus the title of the Thus the title of Barr's book. Now,

784
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: the primary opponents of arming the rebellion countered Lawrence by

785
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: arguing that the Bedouin were, in one officer's words, untrained rabble,

786
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 1: most of whom have never fired a rifle. And this

787
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: is a complicated There's a lot of like back and

788
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: forth where like they'll be promised arms, Lawrence will kind

789
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: of say like, oh, I just got back from my boss.

790
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: His guns are coming in, so we need to carry

791
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: out this attack. But like the guns are coming, and

792
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: like the guns are not coming. Lawrence is lying to them.

793
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: He's pretending that this has been done, and he's doing

794
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: it because he wants to. He's trying to motivate them

795
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: to carry out attacks that he thinks that they can

796
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: succeed at, and they in fact do succeed at. Right,

797
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 1: But he is also lying to them, and also the Britis.

798
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: It's paternalism, right, It's the same thing, yeah, exactly. And

799
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: also separately, the British are just say agreeing to send arms,

800
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: and then there will be some like behind the scenes

801
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: fight and they'll be like, oh, actually we can't do that, right,

802
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: Although you know a lot of arms do wind up

803
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: getting to these rebels, right. So Lawrence knows that, you know,

804
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: in order to kind of secure support for Faisal to

805
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: get these arms, he has to make a case very

806
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: clearly to his very hesitant superiors that the Bedouins can

807
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: win this war. Right. Lawrence arrived shortly after the situation

808
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: in the southern Hejas had devolved into a stalemate, one

809
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: that favored the Turks. Faisal's men had worn out a

810
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: lot of their initial strength, failing to chew through the

811
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: defenses of Medina, but the Turks had made unexpected retreats

812
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: after rumors of an era of attack, which had allowed

813
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: Faisals men to capture the port of Rabigue in the

814
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: first place. This was confusing because they'd moved vastly superior

815
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: forces into the region. It was in analyzing their decisions

816
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: here like why all of this happened, that Lawrence would

817
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: make his first key realization, and here is how Schneider

818
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: describes it. Why did the Turks waiver? It occurred to

819
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: Lawrence that perhaps the virtue of irregulars lay in depth,

820
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: not in face, and that it had been the threat

821
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: of the attack by them on the Turkish northern flank

822
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: which had made the enemy hesitate so long the actual

823
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: Turkish flank ran from their front line at Rebeg their face,

824
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: in Lawrence's words, to Medina, a distance of some fifty miles.

825
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: But if we moved towards the Jjaz railway behind Medina,

826
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: we might stretch our threat and accordingly their flank as

827
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: far potentially as Damascus, eight hundred miles away to the north.

828
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: Such a move would force the Turks to the defensive,

829
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: and we might regain the initiative. Do you see what

830
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: he's saying here, Because this is the core of his

831
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: understanding of how to do an insurgent the struggle.

832
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: You can present yourself as everywhere at once, and it

833
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: makes up a regular army.

834
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: Exactly. We've got this like fifty mile front, and in

835
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: a conventional European war, that would be the threat area, right,

836
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: that would be the attack. That's the area that have

837
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: to worry about. But because we have all of these

838
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: tiny little units of guys on camel who are capable

839
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: of traveling for weeks at a time and then carrying

840
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: out insurgent attacks, actual area they have to defend is

841
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: eight hundred miles deep, and so they can't attack and

842
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: care and regain the initiative the way they otherwise would

843
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: be able to because they have to have forces split

844
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: off and be aware of all of these potential everywhere

845
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: is vulnerable, right and by doing that, we don't actually

846
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: even have to carry out all that many attacks. Just

847
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: the reality of our threat opens possibilities to us.

848
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: Now.

849
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: It's kind of like the Ira is a we only

850
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 2: have to be lucky ones. You have to be lucky

851
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: every time.

852
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that's what he is starting to realize here.

853
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 1: You know, the better Wins know the terrain much better

854
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: than the Turks, who are not locals, and they can

855
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: travel in small groups almost indefinitely with minimal need for resupply,

856
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 1: launching frontal attacks with these things, and there's not many

857
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: of them. The better Wines are not in numerous people.

858
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: These are you know, nomads are not a high population

859
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: group in the desert, so you don't want to use

860
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: them the way British officers instinctively wanted to use them,

861
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: by like sending them to run at guns until they

862
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: were all gone. That is kind of what a lot

863
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: of Lawrence's superior sye is like, Well, this is how

864
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: you fight a war, right, we just throw them at

865
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,479
Speaker 1: guns and like, oh, they're not good at being thrown

866
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: at guns. There's there's this whole thing. The British like

867
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: really have this distaste for these these better win troops

868
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: because like they're scared of artillery. They don't like to

869
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: get blown up. It must like their religion tells them

870
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: they won't go become whole in heaven if they get

871
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: blown up, So like fools, they're scared of field guns.

872
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: This cowardly Arab terror at being exploded. Which is funny

873
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: because is it all.

874
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 2: Of war changing after World War One, where we yes,

875
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 2: it should no one's good at running at machine gun nests.

876
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah it's a bad idea.

877
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: But they still have it. The British have not really

878
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: figured this out yet. Some of them have, but like

879
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of people are still doing

880
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: the old ways. And yeah, there's like this whole Can

881
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: you believe these cowardly don't like to explode, not like

882
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: our good English boys they love blowing up in fields.

883
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: They can't blow up enough. It's so fucking funny to me.

884
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: They're just like looking at generations being wiped out in

885
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: the trenches for nothing, and like why don't the Muslims like.

886
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, totally.

887
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: These primitive people hate dying. Oh, it's so funny. So

888
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: Lawrence is like, we don't we shouldn't be wasting them, right, Like,

889
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of these guys, and they can

890
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: do so much more damage if we split them into

891
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: these tiny like fire teams and send them in behind

892
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 1: the lines to fuck shit up, right, And that will

893
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: open opportunities for us to carry out massed attacks in

894
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 1: areas when we have the advantage and when we can

895
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: actually sweep over them without taking nightmarish casualties, which is.

896
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 2: The actual reality of guerrilla wars is not just these

897
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 2: isolated strike so you have to also work with the

898
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 2: like mass attacks.

899
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: No, it is. It's what you call that. The modern

900
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 1: term is, it's a strategy of tension. If you keep

901
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 1: enough tension on the enemy to where they have this

902
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: massive flank that they have to defend, then they will

903
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: make mistakes. They will expose areas that you then can

904
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: take with more conventional attacks. Okay, yeah, Now, Lawrence advised

905
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: his allies to move troops away from prepared defenses and

906
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: towards operating a terrain that would let them strike at

907
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: the railway with one redeployment, Faisal's men went from threatening

908
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: a single city to two hundred miles of this railway.

909
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: Lawrence began to take part in raids on isolated Turkish units,

910
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: defending chunks of railway or on patrol. Over the course

911
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: of three months, he got a feel for his Bedouin troops.

912
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: Being largely composed of family units from a culture with

913
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 1: a low population, they had little stomach for casualties. At

914
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: one key battle in January nineteen seventeen, the Arab forces

915
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 1: overran Ottoman defenders in a town called Wash, alongside British

916
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: infantry and naval support. The Brits lost one man, the

917
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: Arab tribesmen lost twenty. Now, the British officers in charge

918
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: of this operation had all fought in France, and they

919
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: were like, fucking twenty one dudes to take a town,

920
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 1: this is great, right, Yeah. Lawrence had to caution them

921
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: that like, no, no, no, the Bedouin don't feel like

922
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: this is a great victory quote. Instead, he feared their

923
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: deaths might easily upset Arab morale. Our rebels were not

924
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 1: materials like soldiers, but friends of ours, trusting in our leadership.

925
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: In his book, yeah I do love that like soldiers,

926
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: you know, they're just materials. They're trash basically, right. He's like, no, no,

927
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: these guys are our buddies and they don't like to

928
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: see their family die. Right, You're going to war with

929
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: your uncle. It's not just a casualty, right, Like that's

930
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: your uncle got killed. In his book, James Barr notes

931
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: that Lawrence later added this explanation, we were not in command, Nash,

932
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: but by invitation, and our men were volunteers, individuals, local men, relatives,

933
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: so that death was a personal sorrow to many in

934
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: the army.

935
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: I mean that's a better way to run a I mean,

936
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:18,439
Speaker 2: I guess it's probably bad, like strategically in some why war, Yeah,

937
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: because it makes them think more carefully and instead of

938
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 2: just throwing people in the machine gun us.

939
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yeah, it is. It is the right and

940
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: it's why this this war that that is carried out

941
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: over the Arab revolt and in broader terms a lot

942
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: of because this isn't the only part of the war

943
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: in the Middle East, right, the British occurring out conventional

944
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: military actions trying to take the Holy Land in this period,

945
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 1: which had been disastrous up to this point. There's an

946
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: attempted invasion of Jerusalem. That's just a fucking catastrophe, you know.

947
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: But but there are more conventional attacks. But where they're

948
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 1: taking and like large chunks of land and like entire

949
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 1: influential cities and ports. And you're seeing, like two guys

950
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: died in this battle, right, two of our giants, right,

951
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: Like that is the thing where Lawrence is active, because

952
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: they are thinking smart.

953
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: You know that. That's cool.

954
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty cool. Now. One of the reasons why

955
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: the Europeans had not felt, as I said, that the

956
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: Bedouins could be good soldiers is that they're scared of

957
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: artillery and Lawrence. In these letters he's writing back to

958
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: like the British General staff argues this is they're not

959
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: scared of hardship itself. Like they're not scared of fighting.

960
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: They're not even scared of dying, you know. He writes

961
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: this in Seven Pillars of Wisdom. In mass they were

962
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: not formidable, since they had no corporate spirit, nor discipline,

963
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: nor mutual confidence. The smaller the unit, the better its performance.

964
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: A thousand were a mob ineffective against a company of

965
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: trained Turks, but three or four Arabs in their hills

966
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: would stop a dozen Turks. Napoleon remarked this of the Mamluks,

967
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: we were yet too breathless to turn our hasty practice

968
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: into principle. Our tactics. We're imperial snatchings, we're empirical snatchings

969
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: of the first means to escape difficulty. We were learning

970
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: like our men. This recognition that again, you know, just

971
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: thinking about modern times is like, well, if you get

972
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: a thousand these people together, it's just chaos, right, Like

973
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 1: everyone's fighting with each other. People don't really get along

974
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: very well. They certainly don't trust each other in battle.

975
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: But if you separate them into these three and four

976
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: man groups, then you can make them extremely effective, right,

977
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: and then maybe occasionally take the risk of having them

978
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: carry out larger actions.

979
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is the way that I would

980
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 2: assume my friends would be useful.

981
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: Yes, right, Yeah, So his first few months in theater,

982
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: we're too chaotic and violent for much in the way

983
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: of groundbreaking strategy. Overwhelt arcing strategy to occur to him, right,

984
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: He's kind of it's catches catch can. But later in March,

985
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: Lawrence gets lucky, by which I mean he nearly dies

986
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: from another one of his constant illnesses. He gets this

987
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: horrible mix of like boils and malaria and the shits

988
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: that malaria shit. Yeah, he spends ten days dying in

989
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 1: a tent. To distract himself from dying, he spends all

990
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: of the time kind of like hallucinating from dehydration and

991
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: writing out the most influential military theory of the century.

992
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: And he's consolidating here these years of military theory that

993
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: he had studied back in school and applying it to

994
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: his experiences thus far in the Hajahs. And as he's

995
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: trying to do this, his mind is drawn to an

996
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: Austrian general, Maurice de Sachs, who back in the early

997
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: seventeen hundred, had decided that the generals of his day

998
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: spent too much time worried about tactical details. How do

999
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: I move this unit in opposition to this unit right

1000
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: in order to get a flight? How do I get

1001
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: this unit of riflemen? How do I get cavalry around

1002
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: their side to flank this one group of guys? Right,

1003
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: that's a tactical problem, right, And Desas is like, really

1004
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: the game is figuring out larger operational concerns what he

1005
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: cal calls the higher problems of War Now. Interestingly enough,

1006
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: Desacks had written his book, which is kind of the

1007
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: precursor to Lawrence's groundbreaking work, while he was dying for

1008
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: two weeks in a tent.

1009
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:04,919
Speaker 2: I mean it makes sense.

1010
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: It's like, although you're a soldier, that's what you do. Yeah, yeah,

1011
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 1: two things soldiers love cigarettes and dying intents.

1012
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,479
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1013
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: So, Dsas had written a book about war that provided

1014
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: the framework for Lawrence's understanding of how the Bedouins fought.

1015
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: An article I found helpful in all this is t e.

1016
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 1: Lawrence and the Art of War in the twenty first

1017
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 1: Century by George GOWRICHI. He writes, Dessas offered a theory

1018
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: of war based on the model of a general who

1019
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: practiced the dictum that a war might be won without

1020
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: fighting battles. Whether Lawrence was aware of this or not,

1021
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: others had presented a similar ideal some twenty five hundred

1022
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 1: years earlier. Sons sue the most famous Yeah exactly, Yeah,

1023
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: soun Su has a quote about this, right, and he's

1024
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: the guy. You'll see him recommended often today in the

1025
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 1: reading of Instagram posts of guys who want to sell

1026
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: you one regulated testosterone.

1027
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 2: I know, las still worth reading it's still.

1028
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: Worth reading, and Lawrence is going to he's not reading

1029
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: Sun Sux here, but he's going to use Disacks who

1030
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: saying a similar thing in a very useful way. It

1031
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: has become clear to him that the Automan ability to

1032
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: project power rested entirely on the Jjah's railway, which were

1033
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: in the length of the peninsula and cut through this

1034
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: infinity of desert. But the railway was incredibly vulnerable. It

1035
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: is so long you can't have men stationed on every

1036
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: inch of it, and Ottoman troops have very little ability

1037
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: to maneuver outside of where the railway takes them. Now,

1038
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: any fool with soldiers can tell you that if your

1039
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: enemy has a train, blow it up. But Lawrence is

1040
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: smarter than this. He's like, no, no, no, don't blow

1041
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: it up. That's the worst thing to do. If you

1042
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: destroy the train so it can't operate, your enemy has

1043
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: to adapt and find a different way of getting troops

1044
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: and supplies in theater. And when they adapt, that will

1045
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 1: make them less vulnerable to you. If you just buck

1046
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: with the railway constantly damaging bits and pieces of it,

1047
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: they'll have to keep repairing it. They'll have to keep

1048
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: sending troops to these different areas to repair it. They're

1049
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: going to have their repair crews, they're going to be

1050
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 1: like spending resources to do this. And every resource that

1051
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: they scramble to defend and repair this railway is a

1052
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: source that's not out there actually pressing the attack or

1053
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: defending other territory. Right, you want to keep them on

1054
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: the railway. You just want to fuck with it a

1055
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 1: little bit, you know. Yeah. World military Yeah.

1056
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 2: Okay, Now, I'm like, yep, this is this man.

1057
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: This man is smart. This is a guy with some

1058
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 1: stuff going on under the hood. Yeah. Now, world military

1059
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: history is filled with insurgent movements. Alexander the Great dealt

1060
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: with this shit, and he was not the first imperial

1061
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 1: warlord to do so. What makes Laurence special is not

1062
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: just his understanding of gorilla tactics, but how to marry

1063
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: them to the larger greater power struggle. And here's Gowerchee again.

1064
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: In developing his own theory of a regular war, Lawrence

1065
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: identified three key elements for analysis, the algebraic, the biological,

1066
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: and the psychological. The algebraic element of things refers to

1067
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 1: the physical environment that has shaped warfare in the Hejahs.

1068
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 1: For Lawrence, this was the decisive moment. Using simple math,

1069
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 1: Lawrence calculate at the size of territory held by the

1070
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 1: Arabs in relation to the number of Ottoman troops in theater.

1071
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: The Ottomans, with only sixteen thousand troops in Arabia and

1072
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,720
Speaker 1: with a shortage of staunch Arab allies among the tribes,

1073
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 1: lacked enough soldiers to establish effective control over one hundred

1074
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: and forty thousand square miles of territory geogret geography. The

1075
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,760
Speaker 1: vast desert gave the Arab revolt sanctuaries that the Ottomans

1076
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: could not seize and hold for any length of time.

1077
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: As noted by Lawrence, to make more war upon rebellion

1078
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: is messy and slow, like eating soup with a knife.

1079
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: I just love is writing.

1080
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1081
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: The Arabs possessed safe havens in the Vast Desert and

1082
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 1: therefore had the time to conduct a protracted struggle. They

1083
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: received critical assistance from the British Army, an army that

1084
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: posed serious threat to Palestine. Consequently, the Ottoman high command

1085
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 1: fell to could ill afford to spare additional troops to

1086
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: quell the Arab uprising. Foreign assistance and a distracted enemy

1087
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: proved a window of opportunity for the rebellious Arabs. So

1088
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: key part of this it's not just that we're threatening

1089
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: this whole area. We're threatening this train, and that diverts

1090
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: Ottoman troops, the Great Power War, the British army that

1091
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: hasn't succeeded in taking the Holy Land, but threatens it

1092
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: also blocks troops away, and so he is looking at

1093
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: Lawrence is looking at these very local, small unit actions

1094
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: in the as part of this grander struggle, which is exactly,

1095
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: by the way, what the Vietnamese are going to do, right.

1096
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,919
Speaker 1: They don't have this vast desert, but they have Lao

1097
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: and Cambodia. They have these underground tunnels. This is their

1098
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: safe haven, right. And what the viet Cong are doing

1099
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: very much exists not just in concert with the greater

1100
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: struggle being waged by other Vietnamese elements like the NVA,

1101
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 1: this conventional army, but in the greater power struggle of

1102
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: the Cold War, all of these different conflicts that have

1103
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: an impact on who can and resources where and what

1104
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: can be sent ware right and how much things can

1105
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 1: be escalated.

1106
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:04,439
Speaker 2: Right.

1107
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: Lawrence is the guy who was writing out this is

1108
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 1: how you think about a conflict that is so broad

1109
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: in scope it boggles your mind. Right, Yeah, that's where

1110
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: a lot of his genius comes in.

1111
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 2: No, that makes sense because yeah, is that called grand

1112
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 2: strategy or is that? Yeah?

1113
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,439
Speaker 1: Definitely this is grand strategy, right.

1114
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people are bad at that

1115
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: because we're good at thinking about We all think about tactics, right,

1116
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 2: and then we even sometimes think about strategic goals, but

1117
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 2: we're rarely thinking about how that one strategic goal is

1118
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 2: going to affect how a different political power is going

1119
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 2: to be impacted and what they're going to do.

1120
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the mind of a don't where it's the

1121
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: mind of you know, it's domino theory. It's almost he

1122
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: almost thinks about war the way an electrician has to think, right,

1123
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: where you can't just be thinking about where does this

1124
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: problem in this circuit? But how does all of this

1125
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: connect to this broader structure of like circuits and this

1126
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: broader flow of power? Right, He's thinking about the flow

1127
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: of power, right, very literal sense.

1128
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that engineering.

1129
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is an he is an engineer of war.

1130
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: WHOA.

1131
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well this is what elevates Lawrence is understanding beyond

1132
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: being just another gorilla leader. These basic elements, this local

1133
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 1: gorilla force, pinning down an undermanned opponent, retreating to a

1134
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: safe haven backed by a foreign power its self, and

1135
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: separate conflict or conflicts with the occupier. This is how

1136
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 1: you would describe every great conflict of the last seventy

1137
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: five years, right like, this is what this is what

1138
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: everything is, right, this is there's a lot of Israel

1139
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: Palestine in here, right in this conflict between You've got

1140
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: Israel and the United States back and then you've got

1141
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: Iran supporting you know, his Bellah and hamas. You know

1142
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: these are This is the nature, the basic nature of

1143
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 1: all modern conflict. Really yeah, In other words, I just

1144
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: find this stuff cool. One of the many things that

1145
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: sets Lawrence apart from his colleagues is that he also

1146
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: has an understanding of his limitations. He knows, for example,

1147
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm a white guy. I cannot be the leader of

1148
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: a grand erab revolt. That is not my place. But

1149
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: he also knows how to fin leaders and craft propaganda

1150
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 1: around them to turn them into heroes. And one of

1151
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: these heroes is a guy who's one of the coolest

1152
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: figures in this although he's also he's someone who does

1153
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: a lot of back dealing and wheeling and dealing, but

1154
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 1: Lawrence meets him in eighteen seven or in nineteen seventeen.

1155
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: In April, Aouda Abu Tai of the Howitat tribe, a

1156
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 1: passage from Schneider's book That I Loves gives you an

1157
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: idea of like what a fucking almost yeah a storybook

1158
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: character this you could hardly invent like a cooler sounding

1159
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: protagonist centuries earlier, the Howitat arrived from the Hajahs, and

1160
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: now their clans prided themselves on being true nomads in

1161
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: the Bedouin manner. Aouda was a tribal archetype, a heroic

1162
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 1: leader and warrior in the tradition of co chiefs, Geronimo,

1163
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: crazy horse, sitting bull. His generosity made him poor, as

1164
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: his growing legend made him ever richer in reputation. He

1165
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: had taken twenty eight wives during his adult life. His

1166
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 1: body bore the scars of thirteen wounds. He had seen

1167
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: most of his relations slain in countless raids. Aouda had

1168
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,439
Speaker 1: slain seven five Arabs with his own hand. How many

1169
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 1: turks Outa did not tally hit them, They simply did

1170
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: not count His retinue, compromise, the fiercest men of the

1171
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: tribe fighting about sides Auta with relentless courage. I've killed

1172
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 1: seven personally in a hand to hand combat. It's killed

1173
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: seventy five of the men that I consider men for

1174
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: people who county, which is like, I mean, this guy

1175
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: is also a monster, but you know you can't like

1176
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: undeniably badass. Yeah, yeah. I think paragraphs like this help

1177
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: make it clear. Also why Lawrence finds the Bedouin way

1178
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: of war so much more intoxicating than say, the Western Front.

1179
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 1: If you, if you're a drafty in the Western Front,

1180
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: your combat leader's prior life experience was like competing with

1181
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: other rich kids to molest underclassmen and eton, right, Whereas

1182
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 1: if in this war, if you wind up under Auta,

1183
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: it's this guy from like, yeah, from like a fucking

1184
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 1: story book, right, Yeah, you know, a swashbuckling figure. And

1185
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: Lawrence is a romantic, right, he is still enthralled with

1186
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 1: medieval poems of knights and ladies. This is catnip to him, right,

1187
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,959
Speaker 1: Like there was no chance him not being on these

1188
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: guys side once he starts to meet these people. Now,

1189
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: at the time they met Aouda had about five hundred fighters,

1190
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: half as many as he brought into the war. A

1191
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 1: desert pirate, he was frustrated trying to fight a conventional war.

1192
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 1: I woulda saw himself as an epic hero. Schneider notes,

1193
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 1: this guy, in addition to everything I've said, refers to

1194
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: himself exclusively in the third person.

1195
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course he does.

1196
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: Of course he does. That's what you expect from a

1197
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: man who has killed dozens of men in hand to

1198
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: hand combat. Yeah.

1199
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 2: By the time he gets your tenth wound and your

1200
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 2: seventieth man, who actually counts, you start referring to the person,

1201
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 2: right right.

1202
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: Lawrence sat down with Faisal and Aouda and explained his

1203
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 1: new theories about how the war should be run. He

1204
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: built to a thrilling conclusion where he argued that rather

1205
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 1: than being out numbered and out gunned, the far more

1206
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 1: nobile Bedouins had a chance to attain superiority of men

1207
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 1: in materiel where it mattered. Quote, but think of it

1208
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 1: in regular terms. We are stronger than the Turks and

1209
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 1: transport machine guns, cars and high explosives. At the decisive point,

1210
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 1: we can deploy a highly mobile, lightly equipped, striking force

1211
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: of the smallest size and use it successively. It distributed

1212
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: points along the Turkish line to force them to strengthen

1213
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: their posts beyond the usual twenty men. This will be

1214
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: our shortcut to success. Right, This is this other recommendation.

1215
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 1: War battles always go to who has the numbers, who

1216
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 1: has the most men and guns. But that doesn't mean

1217
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: who has the most men and guns in total. It

1218
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: means where it matters, right, Yeah, I mean it matters

1219
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: right exactly. You don't fight when you're gonna lose, exactly.

1220
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 1: Lawrence assured auDA and Faisal that allowing the Ottomans to

1221
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: keep Medina and the railway would work because it would

1222
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 1: keep their forces bottled up trying to defend these things

1223
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: while the Arabs took everything else. Quote. His stupidity will

1224
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: be our ally, for he believes that his success depends

1225
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: on holding as many of the older provinces is possible.

1226
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: This pride in his imperial heritage will keep him in

1227
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: his present absurd position. All flanks and no front. Now,

1228
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: if you remember nothing else about the way empires think

1229
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: and function from these episodes, remember this, all flanks and

1230
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: no front. They can't really help themselves. That's just the

1231
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 1: way they are anyway, This is fascinating.

1232
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 2: I like this stuff, Like I wonder how much I

1233
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 2: wonder how much this still does or doesn't work, right,

1234
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 2: because you know the idea of like oh and then

1235
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 2: we disappear into the hills. I mean, I guess the

1236
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: Taliban did that to the US and Afghanistan, so I

1237
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: guess it is successfully.

1238
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it does work. It just people

1239
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,479
Speaker 1: don't always get it right, you know, Like we're looking

1240
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: right now at what's happening on a strategic level. I'm

1241
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 1: not talking a moral level necessarily, but like in Gaza,

1242
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 1: you know, with what Hamas you know, has been doing,

1243
01:04:57,720 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 1: is this going to work out?

1244
01:04:58,760 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 3: Like?

1245
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 1: Was it a good strategy? Is this going to where

1246
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: we did? We simply don't know, like good strategy in

1247
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: terms of will they achieve ultimately their goals, that's unknown, right, Right,

1248
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 1: we can look at what the Taliban did and say

1249
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 1: they very successfully employed a version of this strategy and

1250
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 1: it worked for them, right, And we can look at

1251
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: we can look at to an extent Iran in Iraq, right,

1252
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: an Iranian influence in Iraq and the degree of political

1253
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: power that it's given them in the modern day state

1254
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 1: and like the damage that they did to the United

1255
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 1: States as another example of like, well, yeah, this is

1256
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: the you know, they were fairly successful, not to the

1257
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 1: same extent that Taliban was, but fairly successful with a

1258
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 1: strategy like this, right when you also.

1259
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 2: Get into the sort of fourth generational warfare thing, right,

1260
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 2: like those who control the hearts and minds of the

1261
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 2: people are the people who control the people. Like so

1262
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 2: it's like, which is why, I mean, it's why even

1263
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 2: the right wing wants to do mutual a It is

1264
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 2: like literally, whoever is feeding the people is if you

1265
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 2: feed people, that that's where their allegiance, right, yeah, the

1266
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 2: system that feeds them. And but it's interesting because in

1267
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 2: a situation like this, it's just home territory. Yeah, and

1268
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 2: the Ottomans haven't really I don't know enough about how

1269
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 2: the Ottomans were exerting power in that region.

1270
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, I mean the same way empires generally did.

1271
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 2: Right, mostly attractively with some posts.

1272
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,919
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and they're not great at it right again,

1273
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: this is the Ottomans are a failing empire, right Yeah, anyway,

1274
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: cool stuff.

1275
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 3: Yep, Magpie, do you have a new book that people

1276
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 3: can buy?

1277
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 2: I do have a new book that people can buy.

1278
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 2: It's called The Sapling Cage. And if you like amazing

1279
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 2: people running around who travel and do small scale conflict,

1280
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 2: you might like this story about a young trans girl

1281
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 2: who wants to go be a witch and learns how

1282
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: to spear fight, because in my book, which is learn

1283
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 2: how to spear fight before they learn how to use magic.

1284
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 1: And hey, maybe learn how to spear fight yourself. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's very What the Greeks always said about it is

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Speaker 1: that it kind of just comes naturally. There's very little

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Speaker 1: training really that you need. Poke a man with a spear.

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Speaker 1: It's surprisingly easy. That's what John Brown thought too.

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Speaker 2: Or not goodbye, it didn't work out well for him.

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Speaker 2: But I'm like, actually it didn't work out, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean strategic goals were successful.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I mean yes, all right, yeah, so anyway,

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Speaker 1: byey make a Spear.

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Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

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Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 3: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

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Speaker 3: Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday

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Speaker 3: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

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Speaker 3: At Behind the Bastards